🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Bad news.

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Say it ain't so do Joe!

Strike 1 he got caught.

Strike 2 he doesn't tell HCBS.

Strike 3 HCBS finds out through the news media.

Looks like an asst basketball coach opening at KU.

@brooksmd maybe they'll wait til end of season?

This is a pretty complicated one given that marijuana is legal in a few states -- obviously not Illinois or Kansas -- but as crimes go, this is one that states don't agree on.

This happened in the summer. Plus, it happened in Peoria, of all places, which just sounds kind-of small-town. I know that's a stereotype, but it doesn't seem hard to imagine that he got burned by folks that wanted to burn him.

I'm not justifying what he did. He needs to be a role model for kids that he's recruiting and coaching. And most of all, Self has to be able to trust him. The fact that this incident wasn't disclosed to Self until Weds is not confidence-building. That said, Self has known him for a long time.

My point: this is complicated.

There is NO way a formal institution of higher learning, and one that is state-funded can take anything but the conservative view consistent with State law.

Individuals can say "but its only a little weed", but Bernadette Gray-Little, nor Bill Self can ever imply or say anything like that officially.

Snacks is gone. Self cannot have donors/alums/and prospective recruits & their parents becoming instantly skeptical of him and KU's program the minute he opens his mouth to try to sell family atmosphere or family values. "What kind of program you runnin', Bill?" is the too-obvious connotation that now Self has to scramble to dispel, thanks to Jerrance Howard.

Big debate on other site if Self knew or didn't know...but face it, the longer Self "knew" the worse he (& KU by association) looks (to some).

And thank you Jerrance for at best giving UNC and KY and Duke something to chuckle about KU...and at worst, thanks for potentially giving Self's recruiting efforts a hit.

This isn't about pot and some dude's right or wants to smoke it. This is about responsibility position of leadership to young men, and public perception. Classic case of a subordinate's actions making the boss (Self) look bad.

Of all people, Jerrance played for Self, and should know Self's position on such things. Jerrance doesn't realize some things simply are not acceptable, especially at a royalty level program. And regarding his potential career as a coach: just how much goddamn drive would he have if he is smoking pot? If this is how he "relates to kids" and is such a recruiting force, then maybe I/we don't want that message? Bill Self did fine recruiting Chicago without Jerrance Howard, right?

We don't need JHoward blowing smoke up someone's tailpipe, but rather Bill Self telling it like it is on the recruiting trail. I mean what is JH going to say: "Self is a stickler for defense, maintaining academics, and being intense and focused in practice and on gameday...but yes I smoke reefers". What a contradiction.

Unbelievable and incredibly frustrating!

And my (or your) or Bill Self's personal view on pot doesn't matter here. Self and KU are bound by the position of responsibility towards young men, and the huge perception-elephant-in-the-room that comes with this.

Regardless of what we personally think, it must be remembered that a good proportion of donor-alums/WmsFund people may be quite conservative on their views on this issue. There may be no tolerance at all.

Think from yet another angle: the college game, the AFH shrine-like entrance, etc. Of all daggum programs out there, does anybody really think this program, descended from Naismith, Phog Allen, and now thru decades of excellence under Roy and Self...will allow someone with Howard's transgression to stay on as a "coach"? That is simply incredulous to consider.

@ralster I think if he'd told HCBS as soon as it happened so HCBS could announce a suspension or some sort of discipline, they might have been able to save him. But since it came out the way it did HCBS hands are tied and he has to let him go. Your points are right on.

@ralster You may be right about the outcome... but that doesn't mean it will be a decision made without a lot of hand-wrenching and soul-searching. There's a painful tension between the good of the program vs compassion for the individual in these situations where there's clearly a relationship hanging in the balance.

Just as sure as Bill Self is a Midwesterner with conservative values (like it or not), it should be known that a very recent KU player was kicked off the team for transgressions less than this. It was not publicized as such, out of respect for the kid's future, but there now, obviously cannot be a double standard for coaches vs. players.

So, now consider those young faces we have gotten to know and watch intently (Perry, Jamari, Mason, Kelly, Wayne, Cliff, Davonte, Brannen, Svi, Landon)...now they are intently watching what their coach does. This is a brutal PR slam for us. Anybody that is stuck on the fact that "it was only a little weed", simply doesn't get the big, formal, institutional picture, nor what Self has worked so mightily to create on the recruiting trail. And a phrase for any of us to use on those utterly clueless still-in-a-phog reefer proponents: No, the drive and stamina and sweat with which KU's excellence was built by Phog Allen and continued thru the last 3 decades by Roy and Self personally was NOT based on the effects or use of marijuana. Its well known to actually give the opposite effect, regarding drive and motivation. Get a clue, Jerrance Howard--you call yourself a coach, now work at KU, do those names (Allen, Brown, Williams, Self) mean anything to you? How did they achieve "coaching greatness"?

@ralster Coach Howard should man up and already have his letter of resignation on HCBS desk. That takes the pressure off HCBS.

@brooksmd Exactly right, if he can see the big picture situation. His doing so would put the good of the program first and foremost, as it should be. But if he is begging for mercy, no matter how genuine, he is putting Self in an extremely difficult situation. I am sure Sheahon Zenger and BGLittle have already weighed in on this.

I hate the timing of this, mid-season (instead of off-season). I hate that its undermining the perception (potentially) of what Self has built. Yes, the fact Self has known JH for so long complicates things, and only puts Self thru something miserable. He didn't ask for this with all his efforts in our program. The very reason to bring JH here (recruiting ties), now has instantly become a recruiting-liability. How can JH walk into some kid's home without having the parent(s) wonder if "he's the guy to got busted for drugs". "And he's now here to recruit my son?" "And Bill Self thought it would be a good idea to send him for my son??"

I just need to stop thinking about this. You know, we are royalty fans, we obviously are quite emotionally invested in our program, especially those of us alumni who are personally connected with the game in some way. My brain is seeing this as a threat to something Self has worked so hard to maintain and build. SO hard. Something I hold dear. How dare you, Jerrance...

A considerable percentage of successful people use the substance.. Drs, Lawyers, Teachers, Scientists, Presidents. I've seen countless vets find their best treatment for Post traumatic stress disorder through cannabis. I've witnessed children with severe seizures find their only hope in the plant that was a gift of nature. I've watched tumors shrink when the only medicine taken was oil with high CBD content. Its illegality has more to do with Politics and less to do with its side effects.

Now that being said; when a person is entrusted with responsibility to uphold as Jerrance was and fails to do so, there needs to be consequences. I simply have a bigger issue with the fact that he was not trustworthy enough to man up and give Self notice. Mistakes are what make us stronger in life, but trust & loyalty are incredibly hard to earn back once lost.

Too bad he's not an assistant at Colorado....

Also, Self is well known for giving second chances. As a father, I would want my kid to play for a coach that gives second chances. While some will be concerned if Self does not boot him, others might praise him for the compassion it must take to forgive and try to heal and help Jerrance.

@Blown my son said he needs to be fired. Mixed feelings here. Do we lose recruits-either way?

@wrwlumpy Oh man, that's a huge bummer! You guys are right, this is quite complicated. Had this been someone else, it wouldnt have made news. But Jerrance is at KU and in a position of authority. And, he got caught and he didnt tell Coach Self who found out thru the media. No good. No good at all. I dont particularly care that he had weed on him or even if he smoked it, if he wasnt an assistant coach at KU. But having a job like he does, he should know better. Pot will be legal nation wide someday, but that doesnt excuse the fact that he shouldnt be doing that in his position.

I don't think whether we lose, or do not lose recruits should be part of the decision. It should come down to what Self & Co feel is the best "right' thing to do.

But since this is big business, it will come down to recruiting as well.

My three boys give me a lot of advice that I don't heed :)

@Blown do you think we have a policy in place?

Coach Howard has a job in which part of his responsibilities include telling kids to make smart decisions. He has now lost that credibility because of his actions he hasn't made those same decisions himself.

It does not matter what your belief of the enforcement of the marijuana laws are, Jerrance Howard was in possession of something that was illegal in the state that he was arrested. He made a very stupid decision and this is something that will negatively impact his ability to do his job going forward.

Good Bye Snacks!! KU's ethics and programs are better than what you exhibited !!

Good question, crimson. I hope so. It will make the decision making process easier.

If this was Danny Manning while here, would there be the same sentiment to fire on thenl first offense or would we want to see a second chance ?

@RedRooster If Self got a DUI would you be saying the same thing?

Don't change my hypothetical by saying "Self wouldn't do that"

Self has made some pretty terrible decisions himself the last couple of years that were not made public, and he was forgiven by many.

@Blown Interesting question!! My answer would be YES !! It is all about KIDS and what is right in the eyes of the law. Breaking laws results in consequences! And if you are in a position of authority ... there are still consequences and perhaps applied at a little higher level.

I think some of this speaks to the relationship between Self and Snacks. Apparently Snacks was holding something back (i.e. this activity) from Self!

This would be the perfect opportunity to bring in Jacque Vaughn to take his place if KU/HCBS course of action is to let Snacks go.

Blown,
If I read you correctly, Snack deserves a second chance, we all do. But he first has to earn that second chance elsewhere. The message to players/kids has to be that there are consequence(s) to your actions & decisions, period. This country & people are on a rampage of no right & wrong anymore. Everything is justifiable & excusable if the argument fits their view - "it's just a little weed". Hell for that matter, thievery can too be justified or excused because one's just hungry or dirsty. That justification of "aahh I feel sorry" or "emotion-based" thinking has ruined our "critical thinking". Snack has to go & Self can help find him another job in unknown city as a way of giving Snack a second chance, but not at KU.

Just checked ESPN and still no mention of this story. Interesting. Seems like ESPN is usually out ahead on this kind of stuff. Hmmm.

KUSports.com had it posted at 6:01 PM (presumed CST) 11 Feb 2015.
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2015/feb/11/report-ku-assistant-coach-jerrance-howard-fined-dr/?mens_basketball ↗

KUSports.com chased the story with an 11 Feb 2015 headline without a time mark and story about Self remembering his "friend" Jerry Tarkanian.
http://www2.kusports.com/news/mens_basketball/ ↗

So: KUSports.com headlines sandwich Self between his assistant completing public service for a reputed pot arrest half a year ago, and his "friendship" with Tarkanian, who some feel has a bad reputation. Hmmmm.

Next to CJONline.com...

CJONline.com posted the Howard story slightly later at 9:24pm (presumed CST) 11 Feb 2015.
http://cjonline.com/sports/hawkzone/2015-02-11/report-ku-assistant-jerrance-howard-pleads-guilty-drug-charge ↗

There has been no chaser yet at CJonline.com as of 12 Feb 2015 as at about 9:43am CST. But the Howard story was preceded by two stories on 11 Feb 2015.

@Jesse-Newell at CJONline.com posted a review of Self's post game comments after the TxTech game questioning Self's logic about playing inside out at 10:07am (presumed CST) 11 Feb 2015.
http://cjonline.com/blog-post/jesse-newell/2015-02-11/kureview-response-bill-selfs-3-point-comments ↗

@Jesse-Newell also posted a story about Cliff Alexander's jitters starting for KU vs. TxTech at 10:07am (presumed CST) 11 Feb 2015.
http://cjonline.com/blog-post/jesse-newell/2015-02-11/kureview-response-bill-selfs-3-point-comments ↗

@Jesse Newell stories posted on CJONline.com so far seem about par for the course for JNew, though the story questioning Self's logic on inside out is probably the most critical story of Self I have seen him post so far.

12 Feb 2015 9:46 am CST--still no ESPN.GO. COM headline listed for Jerrance Howard story.

12 Feb 2015 10:56am CST--still no ESPN.GO. COM headline listed for Jerrance Howard story.

12 Feb 2015 12:33pm CST--still no ESPN.GO. COM headline listed for Jerrance Howard story.

12 Feb 2015 2:42pm CST--still no ESPN.GO. COM headline listed for Jerrance Howard story.

12 Feb 2015 10:45pm CST--ESPN.GO.COM headline listed for Jerrance Howard story. Story did not give a time of posting, so not sure how much earlier it was posted (note: I am posting this about 9:43am CST on 13 Feb 2015).

Timeline for Jerrance Howard story developing...

@Statmachine - Yes, Jacque Vaughn - - - or ME!!

@nuleafjhawk I would put money on it that Snacks steps down before he is fired. That's how things usually pan out at KU. Jacque Vaughn would be a huge addition to the KU staff if he were to take an assistant coaching job? I would imagine that he has been contacted by other universities already and will take a head coaching job at UT after this season lol.

@HawksWin I appreciate your comments, and I respect what you are saying.

I agree that sometimes we have to find ourselves in another environment, and can become better people because of our shortcomings.

I am no William James, but I am trained in Research Methods and Psychology to some extent, and it is always my goal to evaluate facts without bias. I don't care what the truth is, I simply want to know it. The point of my post is to make sure we look at things from as many sides as we can, and to remember "let he without sin cast the first stone."

And as child, my family was so poor the only meals I ate were at school, and I did have to steal day old food from a trash can behind the grocery store during the summer time. Should I have starved or should I steal? It doesn't sound like you've really ever come face to face with true hunger if you cannot justify stealing for it. That was my only option. I was arrested at 9, 14, 16, 17, 18, and 19. Giving up on me would have been easy, but I'm glad they didn't. I was given second chances countless times, and 12 years later I'm sitting here with two college degrees, an expunged criminal record and I am a pillar of hope for the young children & adults that I interact with daily.

Things are rarely as they seem. I will not judge Snacks, but I do not envy the business decision that Self must make.

@Blown thanks for sharing!! Awesome that you are being rewarded by working w/kids, as well as them being blessed to have you!! You have walked in their shoes!! I follow coach Howard on twitter, he has a beautiful family and loves his life here. I'm very sad for everyone involved.

@Blown I'm sorry, Blown but I have to categorically disagree with you on this issue. I think @HawksWin is spot on. You make the slippery slope argument of some successful "Drs, lawyers, politicians" are users...you think they are in the majority in their professions? And being in the medical profession myself, you think I'm going to let such a comment slide? First, as with any medicinal substance, there has to be demonstrable, reproducible evidence thru trials proving its efficacy. Cannabinoids are no panacea. They are simply an adjunct in picked cases. Let me tell you something, for every MD willing to write for cannabinoids, there are multiple times as many that will not. Large amt of skepticism in the profession, with the basis of it driven by scant data beyond chronic pain. Talk about PTSD with a psychiatric specialty MD, and they'll tell you of the list of meds for it, and pot isnt on the top of such list. And I have helped the VA hospital professionally, lets just say there is a lot to sift through when judging which med is right for your patient.

But what a boggy discussion for a sports board. Let me make the point that non-using professionals may feel their profession just got tainted by the actions of a few, whenever some Dr or lawyer, etc gets busted for drugs. How can that reflect positively? How? Tell me how to spin that positively?

This whole nonsense about making another intoxicating substance legal + its default promoting more smoking is simply ridiculous. But people dont care. Keep eroding this nations ideals & values, people dont care-- this is exactly how the "greatest nation on earth" gets de-consructed. See, the generations that BUILT this country, are not the ones trying to tear it down, ideal by ideal.

We have some on this site wanting Self to change some of his bball "ideals". Some wish for him to espouse Hoiberg's philosophy or something...you think thats really going to happen? People propose things without realized the cascade of effects. No foresight.

Here's some stark what-ifs about pot: Lets give the surgeon a bunch of totes off a joint before he operates on your kids emergency appendicitis, eh? Or you are on a jetliner, and the pilot is not Malaysian, but an American from Colo., who happens to "be a professional that uses (as @Blown implied)", and now he's going to land your plane at night, in the rain, in a crosswind...want to be on that plane if he's been using legal pot? Or how about we get Dale Earnhardt, Jr higher than a kite, then sit him in his 800+hp stock car & watch him try to push 200mph, eh? Or worse, some driver intoxicated on now-legal pot is weaving down your street where your 4 or 6yr old daughter is trying to ride her training wheel bike with you standing nearby...

Got any other fun-with-pot ideas? Im trying to have a "free mind".

Funny thing is pot will likely get legalized in more & more states...as Colo. showed you can tax the hell out of said commodity! And since the state govt's budgetary incompetence has kept finances wrecked, watch them subvert any "old" ideals to the not-even-mighty dollar. Its not the smell of pot that will legalize it, its the pull of money.

@Blown I don't think anyone would begrudge someone who had to steal to eat, especially a child - and I'm sorry that you had to go through that. Sounds like you've overcome and you can be thankful and proud of that.

HOWEVER - BIG, BIG difference between dumpster diving for needed food and the illegal drugs that we're talking about here. With an educated, grown man by the way.

I'm not judging him - I've smoked my share of weed (although 30+ years ago), but he needs to make amends, however that may be. I hope he overcomes this obstacle and goes on to great things in his coaching career.

And since we love our Jayhawk basketball so much, lets do one more hypothetical: The state of KS legalizes pot, and thus the Univ. of KS no longer pursues punitive action for the use of pot--we like to complain about laccadaisical play now...what on earth would we do in that scenario, if players are using? (Because pot will make them, uh, sooo sharp, focused, and intense, right?) (laughter)

Look, anytime I see someone try to defend or support pot, I always wonder "why, man?" Or I want to ask them: "Uh, whats it to ya personally??" (Be careful with the answer, dont incriminate yourselves...). The big pix perspective question always is in my mind: Why all this importance & debate over marijuana? Why?

Maybe I need to change my thinking: Just like when it was asked a few yrs ago about big oil: why are the oil companies making 800% profits...that was maybe the wrong question. Maybe it shoulda been: why are you not owning oil co. stock? So maybe I should be checking into Colorado companies to see which pot companies are doing well enough to invest in? The reeferheads can smoke the green, while I earn some green. Right? I think thats what the KS legislature is debating, their eyes all "lit up" by the pull of green $$$...(tax-able commodity). Lol. Maybe the reeferheads can form a political coalition, the Blunt Party. Then when they dont like the taxation, they can have a Pot Party, & they dont even have to go to Boston Harbor...

Regardless of whether a substance is legal (or not), it doesn't mean people are on it ALL THE TIME. Just like alcohol. I doubt Earnhardt Jr. chugs a bottle of gin before a race, so why the hell would he smoke pot? There are already laws in place for being illegally under the influence.

Reefer madness around here. Keep your daughter and her trike out of the Taco Bell drive through lane and she'll be fine!

Ya, this is way too easy a topic to man the guns about over the years. Lets worry instead about KU and the unfortunate predicament JH has put Self, Zenger, and BGLittle in. Peace.

On this topic, it's very hard.

MU didn't fire Pinkel because of the DUI. The DUI is worse than this, related to the deed itself, in my book.

I struggle with two things, 1) he didn't tell Self. Dishonesty by omission. And 2) the example he is setting for the players.

This is about Self's program. Truly a trust Self moment.

Blown,
Thanks for sharing. The major difference between you and Snack is that you were young and didn't know any better. Snack is a grown up who has incredible influence over youth. If I were a pot-head parent, I still wouldn't send my kid to a coach who smokes pot. You know do as I say, not what I do? We all have our stories & mine is NOT rosy, but ended up with 2 degrees. I'm sure Snack's story isn't rosy either - but that's then & this is now. This is the reality. Life isn't fair. A bit of history on doped up citizens. Chinese turned to opium & the emperor didn't & couldn't do anything (Brits played a part in it), and soon China got chopped up & occupied by the Western powers & then became the Red State. The thing was Chinese citizens " living in Opiumed (is that a word?) world" were unable to defend themselves against their occupiers & intruders. You cannot tell me dope is good for the society. Thanks ralster for your medical explanation. Sorry Blown. I still enjoy your comments - go Jayhawks!!

@ralster No apology needed. I don't take any of this as a personal jab. We have different opinions. Reasonable minds may differ.

FYI, I live in Kansas, not Colorado. I don't use marijuana, I simply condone having an open mind.

And my father has suffered from PTSD (though he refuses to try cannabis) since 1972 upon his return from Vietnam. And I've watched as the VA prescribes pill after pill for him to no avail. Yes, his violence and sensitivity to loud noises and crowds has been lessened, but his true personality has been subdued as well. All of these medicines that are supposed to help him have turned him into a zombie. Sometimes I wish I had the old Jarhead back. Would you want my dad landing his CH53 Sea Stallion in a cross wind on Barbituates and Depressants? Your medical field prescribes them.

I don't think this story is complicated. Our drug laws are complicated. But laws are laws and are meant to be followed.

In this case, with a high-profile job working with youth, Jerrance will have to face definite consequences.

It is hard to comment too deep on this without knowing all the details. But I'll think out loud and voice my opinion...

If I was Jerrance, I would take the offensive and fight for my job. Even though he should have come out with this to Self when it happened, he can still put his best foot forward now.

1. Enter a rehab program.... Whether or not he is still using, do the right thing and seek help. This is setting the example for the kids he coaches.

2. Make a public statement.... Discuss this with Self before doing it so he won't be caught off guard. Admit guilt publicly along with what steps he must do (responsibly) moving forward. Apologize to Self, his players, the university and the fans.

3. Commit even more.... Find a way to commit himself to helping youth on the drug issues. Maybe he becomes a counselor. It doesn't even necessarily have to be directly related to drug rehab... perhaps he starts a program to help kids find something else to do besides smoke pot.

4. Commit to the Athletic Department.... Trust has been lost with him and the AD. He has to structure a plan and commitment for transparency in the future.

If he doesn't take a proactive role in this, he should most-likely leave his position... either by resignation or termination.

Bye-bye, Jerrance. I am certain that Bill will help you land on your feet; but elsewhere. Thanks for the recruiting contributions. Good luck with readjusting your career path.

@ralster Mega PHOF's for your comments about the effects of pot. I'm not in the know like you are, but it was well stated. I couldn't agree more.

@Blown I understand where you're coming from but your dad would not be on flying status if he was prescribed those meds.

As society changes what was once legal becomes illegal, and vice versa. Though there is a movement to legalize Cannabis it is indeed still illegal in most states.

Some will say the law is the law and so forth and the law was broken. Therefore he is guilty and must be fired or released as to save the image of the University. That he had a leadership position and therefore there is no second chance.

And some will say what's the big deal. Is getting caught smoking cannabis any different than getting caught drinking while driving. They will make a case why cannabis should be legal and point to the fact that is indeed becoming legal. No they will say to releasing Snacks, instead will say give him a second chance. What's the big deal.

Well you are both right and wrong.

In the end Snack's real crime will be he didn't tell HCBS. That my friends is a no, no. '(

Interesting comments in here on pot.

I believe I have a different perspective from most. I lived a majority of my adult years in a country that had a tolerant policy towards possessing and selling pot (in certain quantities).

First thing to note: In many ways, pot should not be considered similar to alcohol and other mind-altering substances. Pot has no levels of toxicity. You can't OD on pot. There may be some level of toxicity created from burning pot, but that is often disputed, and for medical purposes there are known safe methods for ingesting this substance. For recreational purposes, in the area of toxicity, it is a clear winner over alcohol. There is no valid argument left on this. Done.

There are other issues regarding responsible use that are unique to pot. THC stays in the body for long periods of time, and regular users build up levels in their bodies and there is a definite question as to whether or not they should be operating equipment like cars and planes while having a lifestyle of use. Technology is about to bring us better measuring devices and policies can be set with the goal of public safety in mind. There is no way around this. It is the right thing to do, regardless which side people are on this issue. Public safety needs to be the #1 consideration. Because of the lingering effect, it will be hard to keep pot in your lifestyle while desiring to operate motor vehicles or other equipment. Just look at the constant lowering of acceptable alcohol limits. It will be equally stringent on pot use. But the issue with pot is that 24 hours later you will still maintain a measurable amount of THC in your body, and further use will increase that amount. This is very different than alcohol.

From a medical perspective... I have problems with the direction of our society. Medication is being highjacked by profits. Adequate studies cost extreme amounts of money, and the only way to get these studies done is to have a financial carrot in front of big pharma. I'm sure they are busy now gobbling up patents on synthetic processes involving components of pot. Patents create the opportunity to make big money through protection. The focus isn't on helping people... the focus is on profits.

There are institutions in this world that are studying the medical effects of pot. In most cases, those studies have been (and will be) criticized for not meeting certain standards. Standards controlled by associations and industry that are driven by high profit.

I guess it comes down to basic beliefs. Do you believe your health care should be controlled by for-profit corporations? Do they have your interests at heart? Have you ever read corporate charters before? Do you realize there is nothing written into corporate law that involves medical ethics? No mention of the Hippocratic Oath. Nothing. The structure of a corporation is about controlling profits, ownership and power. In fact, those persons running a corporation who make decisions based on medical ethics above their own corporate interests are breaking their contractual obligation to shareholders. Corporations are strictly about profits.

I tend to side towards pot for medical purposes because I also believe in natural treatments over synthetic medicine. I put synthetic medicine as a last resort option. And the testing provided to qualify modern medicine is a complete joke. The testing is performed by labs that are hired by the pharmaceutical companies. No bias there, right? Synthetic science has extreme flaws in it's very basic structure.... to find an effect from a substance, then provide that substance in high isolated amounts. It turns out that mother nature knows something about providing help to illness, especially since probably 99% of our survival came through natural treatments (Google Chinese medicine). It turns out that the safest treatments come from natural-occurring compounds and not isolated substances. It is through these compounds that nature works its magic and help comes with less or no side effects because the other elements in the compound play a role in the outcomes.

Synthetic medicine is not the backbone of our modern day rise to quality of life and health. That has come through other advancements, like water treatment and public waste management. That isn't to say that modern science and isolating elements are a total flop. Chlorine is a dangerous substance, but it has helped sterilize our water supply from dangerous pathogens in an economical fashion.

You mean a small mom and pop business isn't about profit? I'm sure Jayhawk Tire is about profit.

@Blown

You are comparing apples and oranges. Alcohol possession and drinking, as long as you are of legal age and don't drive while intoxicated, is legal. Even if you don't use it, pot possession is illegal in most states by state law and illegal in all states by federal law. One involves doing something legal that by excess or lack of judgment turns illegal, the other is knowingly doing something illegal, period.

As @ralster indicated and without going into the details, KU CANNOT have one policy for players and one for coaches, if anything, the policy for coached should be more strict since they are the "adults" and role models for many of the kids, where players are young, inexperienced, away from home and with a lot of peer pressure to boot. Adults have to set the example they want the kids to follow...do as I say and not as I do... is by no means acceptable.

Peter Drucker famously said:

Management is doing things right;

**leadership is doing the right things **

So it boils down to whether you want to do what is expedient for the program or whats is good for the program. The first case would involve maybe a suspension for the rest of the season and the second would be dismissal from the program. If Howard kept this from Coach Self, I just don't see how he would keep his job.

I guess it comes down to choosing between being a manager or being a leader.

@brooksmd Swampman Shelby says "Go, git, gone. "Guess he should know...'

@JayHawkFanToo Managers can be as bosses; covert oft times. Leaders are at the forefront leading by example. We'll now find out about Bill going forward.

@Blown

I am sorry that you has such a hard upbringing, I truly am; however, by your own description. most of it happened when you were a minor or barely past that age and under extreme circumstances and with a still developing moral compass. The same cannot be said about Howard. He is an adult in a very comfortable (and enviable) situation and in a position of authority/power/influence where he is expected to lead and be a role model for young adults and have a well formed and rounded set of moral and ethical principles. Wouldn't you agree?

Remember, with great power. comes great responsibility - Spider-man's Uncle Ben.

@globaljaybird Shelby is crazy. :smile:

I enjoy all the different points of view. Thinking is healthy and my favorite thing to do.

@JayHawkFanToo I agree he should have known better. I just don't believe this will be easy for Self. I liked someone else's idea that JH should consider stepping down.

Doubt he'll resign at this point. What would be his reason--for the good of the team/he's become a distraction... something along those lines? Very few details to the story. Frankly, it really seems unbelievable that no one knew about it until one day before his court supervision ended.

I'm sure Self can point to some personnel policy to justify whatever decision he makes, if it's even his to make.

@brooksmd Sure as a frogs @$$ is waterproof...

Bill needs to let Snacks go.

Just read 2-week suspension from all activities.

@mtwagonmaster

Here is the link... ↗

We really don't know all the details but my first reaction is disappointment...

@wrwlumpy thought this headline was clever. Nice work.

So he has already finished 6 months of pee test ordered through the court system of Peoria and paid his fine + a two week suspension. What kind of pressure are these recruiting coaches under? 2 DUI's for Huggy's boy that stayed at KSU before going to be with Turgeon and losing his job for his second arrest. I like the Jacque Vaughn idea. There must be some big fish he has on the line in recruiting, BIG FISH.

I feel bad for Snacks. He's as much one of our own as Wayne Selden or Frank Mason, imo. Maybe more so being that he played four years for Bill Self at Illinois prior to two years of coaching for KU. This is a lifestyle choice, considered illegal in some parts of the country. Most of us have gambled in office pools, drank in public, trespassed and broken God knows what other petty laws in our life. It is my opinion that the government should only be dictating what choices I can make in so much as how they may harm others. You may disagree, but please let's consider Snacks one of our own and hope this all works out for the best.

@brooksmd

"You mean a small mom and pop business isn't about profit? I'm sure Jayhawk Tire is about profit."

Hey... I'm a capitalist. And I don't mind big business having financial incentives to innovate products, including medicine.

But they control medicine now in it's entirety.

Ever wonder why America has one of the highest costs for health care in this "free market" system? There is nothing free market about medicine in America... absolutely nothing. Did you know the AMA is the #1 spender of lobby dollars in Washington?

Have you ever had to pay out of pocket expenses for chemotherapy? Would you deny a loved one medicine if the cost of it was $5000 per month? How long could you afford to pay that?

I've been in that situation, including with a loved one who was insured. This was before Obamacare... and I'm pretty sure big improvements haven't happened since it became law.

On the recreation side..... if marijuana was hard to get and grow, and if a business could possess all the rights to it, we would have had legal (federal) pot ages ago because that corporation would have lobbied for it. Snacks wouldn't be facing this issue, unless he bought his stuff underground.

Just my humble opinion.

I'm not as bent out of shape by it as others on here. He should've told Coach, so I guess that'll get him in the end. That is a deal breaker, even though the "getting busted for pot" might've actually helped with recruiting.

@drgnslayr

The health care in this country is expensive because of lawyers. Why do we pay so much for medications? Because sooner or later the pharma companies will get sued and a jury whose justification is, they have money, they ca afford it, will award a plaintiff a shit load of money. Do you know how much the average doctor has to pay for insurance? A huge amount because sooner or later he will be sued and the insurance company will have to fork out the money. Why do doctors order all these expensive test for the simplest of conditions? Because if they don't they might end up being sued; it is called practicing defensive medicine...very sad indeed.

In the old days, most Americans used to believe that the best way to become successful and wealthy was getting a college degree and working hard. Now, according to many polls, American believe that the best and quickest ways to become successful and wealthy are winning a lawsuit or the lottery...oh, how times have changed.

@approxinfinity

I believe that the long term relationship Coach Self has had with Snacks weighed heavily in the final decision.

2-week suspension:

Kansas University men’s basketball assistant coach Jerrance Howard will serve a two-week suspension from all team activities as punishment for a July 2014 arrest for possession of marijuana, KU coach Bill Self announced Thursday afternoon. The suspension is effective immediately.
-- KUSports.com

Let the debate ensue ;-) (in a civil way, of course... nods to @CivilHawk )

@bskeet Fair enough.

@JayHawkFanToo

I know that is part of it... but you don't think the AMA gives all those millions to Washington for the heck of it, do you? Costs are high because everyone involved in the process goes for full profit. Insurance companies, lawyers, hospitals, doctors (and their groups), pharma.

Capitalism is built on profiteering. I'm not against that. But who is in Washington lobbying for the consumer? Right... no one.

@drgnslayr

The ABA makes the AMA look like pikers, plus most members of congress are lawyers in the first place.

@bskeet said:

2-week suspension:

Kansas University men’s basketball assistant coach Jerrance Howard will serve a two-week suspension from all team activities as punishment for a July 2014 arrest for possession of marijuana, KU coach Bill Self announced Thursday afternoon. The suspension is effective immediately.
-- KUSports.com

Let the debate ensue ;-) (in a civil way, of course... nods to @CivilHawk )

I say, Fair!

My first thought, before I got to the bottom of the thread was that JH should be let go for not telling his employer about the offense.
If he had told them, there should have been a stiff penalty. You can't punish the kids for testing positive without severely penalizing a coach that does the equivalent. As I thought more about it, I thought about how we are a 2nd chance society......I agreed with the comment above about how he should be proactive and enter some type of rehab. Then, I got to the bottom and read that he has been suspended. That doesn't mean he won't ultimately be let go, but I think that won't happen. I think I am OK with that given other transgressions that have occurred and how others have been given 2nd chances. I know that not telling your employer takes it to another level, so I am conflicted.

HR person here. Pretty certain that KU has dealt with similar employee issues in
the past. Organizations have to deal out the same discipline to similar policy breakers regardless of their position. That said , Self as his manager can deliver his own unique thrashing. Oops should have typed message to JH.

@Paloma What KU policy, if any, did he break? None of this occurred on campus.

@drgnslayr First I'm glad to hear you're a capitalist. Second, as my wife has worked as a chemo nurse over 20 years in both private practice and hospital, I'm well aware of horrors and the costs of chemo. I also know that while working in private practice she assisted patients in working with companies to get reduced charges for their treatments. I also know what she pays for malpractice insurance not only when she worked in private practice but even now in a hospital setting. If we didn't have the litigation threat like many countries, we could bring drugs straight to market and sell them over the counter.

I'm sorry for your family experience with cancer and unfortunately most of us have had to deal with this terrible disease. All the best my friend.

Am sure KU has a code of conduct that employees have to suffer thru annual training on. Probably has bullets on professional, truthful behavior and requires employees' signature. Does not matter where the unacceptable behavior occurred--especially in this situation since he's embarrassed the school along with himself and family. It's easy to directly connect this issue to damaging his performance as well. Easy discipline decision.

@JayHawkFanToo I'd give ya 100 thumbs up if I knew where to get them. That's because we have an entire generation that is totally comfortable to live off of someone else's hard work & sit at home to watch Judge Joe, Dr Phil & Oprah on self help TV. In other words they are just too friggin lazy to get off their ass. JMO

@Paloma KU employees do not have annual training on code of conduct. I thought you worked at KU and had insight into some specific policy that JH violated.

@brooksmd

Thanks.... We lost my mother-in-law to breast cancer. It was tough in all areas.... emotional and financial. I don't want to single out anything in particular... I just wish there was someone lobbying for us. I appreciate the efforts of your wife! Through all of this we met many people in the health industry that was very kind and as helpful as they possibly could be.

@JayHawkFanToo

I know you are right on the money!

Sorry for venting this out in here.

Checkout the Handbook for Faculty and other Unclassified Staff --section on committing an act that involves such moral turpitude as to render the faculty member unfit for his position. Not a KU employee but all organizations have behavior policies/standards.

This gives new meaning to "Beware of the Phog"

@wissoxfan83 good one!

@wissoxfan83 PHOF !!

@drgnslayr

No problem. I have had relatives that had cancer and I know how expensive it can be. My sister in law had the bone marrow transplant procedure at Barnes-Jewish Hospital in St. Louis, one of the very few places that will do it, and I know the bill for the stay was around $300K. Fortunately she worked for the Social Security Administration and her insurance plan covered just about all of it. She was cancer free for close to 10 years and then it came back and she was gone in a couple of months. Pretty sad.

2 week suspension. Well, we might not see the rest of the story until fall...if, indeed, there will be further maneuvering. The thing that bothers me perhaps most: Has Snacks hidden other illegal actions from his head coach? Perhaps recruiting entanglements? This hoops program is colossal; much grander than the judgments or misjudgments of those currently placed in charge of maintaining its face and continued well being. The program has been burdened with a few player blemishes during the Self Years, but no more than on any other topflight Div. 1 campus, and fewer than most schools, it appears. (Heck, just take a look across the Kaw, current turmoil at MizZoo!) But a compound mistake by a second or third year assistant? YIKES! The World of Hoops is broad and expansive. Lotsa sites for Snacks to land with uncluttered runways; sites w/o the reputation or historical significance of Kansas Basketball. I understand that it is in timely best interest of Bill Self, the athletic dept. and the university to move quickly in an attempt to leap beyond this breaking news. Gonna be interesting, watching for further crescendo or denouement. I will be surprised if Snacks is still in Lawrence by June 2016. But for his longstanding relationship with Bill Self, he has stepped close to filling J.R. Giddens' dusty Adidas sneakers.

Interesting. I was visiting with a friend that works in HR and she indicated that depending on how his contract is written and who the contract is with, KU/AD might not be able to fire him...even if they wanted to. If he was fired, he could sue the KU/AD under the ADA since drug dependency can now be consider a "disability" and KU's only recourse would b to send him to rehab (at KU's expense. of curse) a few times before he can be fired...whatever happened to personal responsibility? It would certainty explain the relatively light punishment; certainly much cheaper than the alternative plus it gets the issue off the front pages and spares the program from further embarrassment.

@JayHawkFanToo Personal responsibility walked out the door when political correctness walked in.

Regardless what the future brings I wish him the best.

@brooksmd The idealistic, liberally anointed, politically correct world we now live in (Federal Govt) is now allowing anyone with a pet- examples: dog, cat, kangaroo (where legal), to register said pet as a service animal for the life of the animal for a $75.00 fee, qualifying as an emotional (therapy) support service animal. A US Govt ID is issued & said pet can accompany the owner anywhere in the US of A. Kinda like the hormone therapy thing you mentioned the other day-mind boggling to those citizens who try to be responsible & accountable, and work & pay taxes. The animal can fly, accompany owner to restaurants, go to court, ball games, whatever & wherever. Makes ya proud to be a taxpayer doesn't it? Damn chills are starting to run up & down my wallet most every time I hear the Star Spangled Banner anymore. (Sarcasm).

@globaljaybird I did hear a story about a pot bellied pig on an airplane, pooped on the floor!! Gross! It was a service pet! She had papers from a dr. I always wanted to see if I could pass my golden off as a guide dog to get in somewhere. I didn't realize it was rude. Anyway I never did it.

@globaljaybird I won't go into detail, but read what the head of the IRS said could happen with the issuance of SSN's as part of O's amnesty program. How many billions that will cost not to mention the projected $22 billion for college loan forgiveness. I'll have to come out of retirement so I can afford the taxes to pay my fair share. I'm considering renouncing my citizenship, leave the country and then sneak back in across the southern border to get in on all those freebies.

@brooksmd don't fuel his fire!!

@Crimsonorblue22 That wasn't one of those cute little pot bellied pigs. It was a frickin' pot bellied hog. Monkeys, cats, and even miniature horses qualify as "emotional support" animals. Somebody boards a plane I'm on with a frickin' horse, I'm getting off. Same with a pig.

@brooksmd I did know there was a difference!! I'm w/you!!

@brooksmd A guy showed me his Fed ID for his service dog the other day-a pit bull, & told me that there was no Dr's recommendation or medical requirement whatso ever involved in the process. I've no problem with the breed, or any breed for that matter, but now the dog is legal anywhere he goes-with the stroke of a pen & 75 bucks. What the H is this country coming too? If you have excellent, employer paid healthcare under the AHCA, you may have to claim it as a taxable benefit as a "Cadillac Healthcare Plan" & may be subject to a FORTY % Tax on said benefit !! Google it to see if you will get nailed. That's a huge reason why I took early retirement. Taxable income was going up as per paid healthcare by appx 23K per year without one additional penny on the check, but taxes were going to go up about $8500 per year anyway.

@globaljaybird so if it's not medical why can he have it? Can I have one? I wouldn't have a pit, afraid of them!!

@Crimsonorblue22 Doesn't take much to rattle my cage about taxes !!

I know! I tried to stop him!!

@Crimsonorblue22 He said there was no Dr involved in the process. You download a PDF, fill out the form, & pay the $75 bucks, & shazamm-you're in. The US Govt mails you a service animal ID card describing the animal & you & pics, & states "emotional therapy pet" on the card. I looked at the ID card myself. Also asked if it were counterfeit & answer was no.

How do you expect everyone to have the biggest flat screen, broadband internet/cable, smart phones if we don't pay our fair share?

I kept my health ins when I retired and I pay almost $500/mo for it. Guess I'll find out when I do my taxes if it qualifies as a "cadillac" or not. Only did it to cover my wife as her employer healthcare ins sucks.

Boy this thread certainly has meandered from topic to topic. :beer:

@brooksmd Let's talk about tattoos. Or our favorite songs. Or our favorite songs about tattoos......

@brooksmd Some of us old people tend to ramble angrily while we wander. When we have to drop bread crumbs to get back home we'll really be in deep crap. Service dogs will be eatin the crumbs !!

@nuleafjhawk How bout scars leaf ?- Scars are tattoos with stories .

@globaljaybird but what is the purpose, to take the dog anywhere? Sorry!

Or the Royals pitching staff for this year now that Shields has bailed. :baseball:

@nuleafjhawk do it!

@nuleafjhawk Favorite song = Doo-Wop

@Crimsonorblue22 (don't tell anyone - I just finished phase 2 of 3 of my 3rd tattoo today. I am So digging it....)

I'm pretty sure we are the only 4 people on here that are reading this and enjoying it!

@Crimsonorblue22 But there's one guest lurking and probably thinking what a bunch of loons.

@Crimsonorblue22

Ha.... surprise... I'm back! Just bought candy for my sweety's v-day.

@nuleafjhawk

You just voided yourself from being buried in a Jewish cemetery. No tattoos allowed!

I have one hidden tattoo. In my single days I offered women a $1000 if they could find it. I never had to pay out. The benefits were worth every penny! The reason I got it... one drunk night in my youthful days (nights) I was with my crazy biker friends and we ended up in a tattoo parlor and everyone was required to face the needle. I was threatened with a forced facial tattoo if I didn't comply. This was not in the USA, so the parlor also complied with the threat. I think I can still qualify for a Jewish burial, though I'm not Jewish.

@brooksmd

No sweat, bro, I'm a loon, too!

@brooksmd speak for yourself!! I hope you too are doing something special for your valentine!

@drgnslayr Well crap. Now I'm really intrigued about your "invisible" tattoo.

But not intrigued enough to look for it !!

@Crimsonorblue22 In his case absolutely. Many local cites have banned that breed.

@drgnslayr I remember you telling this story before, so lots of(ladies?) searched you all over? Is that what you are telling us? Jk! If your valentine is 9 months pg, you better throw a massage in too!!

@Crimsonorblue22 IHOP for breakfast and a card. She just got a dozen roses a couple weeks ago for anniversary.

@nuleafjhawk me either, but I can't stop laughing about it!! Plus I'm trying to leave the house, but I want to know more!

@Crimsonorblue22 And next month is her birthday. So from April to November I get out of the debt I go into from December to March.

@brooksmd since she is a nurse for cancer patients, she deserves a lot! It really takes a special person!

@Crimsonorblue22 Ask @globaljaybird about his Uncle Pete and the tat he wanted to get.

@brooksmd so you don't pay taxes?

@brooksmd no!! I'm leaving now!!!

@Crimsonorblue22 Yep still pay fed taxes on my retirements. Louisiana doesn't collect state on it.

I meant in April.

@Crimsonorblue22 Oh yeah. But we have that covered to where we either get a little back or pay a little. Nothing big.

@Crimsonorblue22

" I remember you telling this story before, so lots of(ladies?) searched you all over? Is that what you are telling us? Jk! If your valentine is 9 months pg, you better throw a massage in too!!"

Yep... that was back in my single days. I'm hitched now. And my wife is the only one that knows where my ink his hidden!

@brooksmd

I hate paying taxes, too... but I'm not complaining since moving back to the USA. Try living in a "social democracy!" The taxes are criminal.

@brooksmd She'll never know!!

@globaljaybird you talking about me? I'm watching wigs on TNT.

@Crimsonorblue22

Me too. Not much defense and lots of dunks.

@JayHawkFanToo wigs quietly looking good! Nice block, victor didn't like that, trying to show up the rook!

@Crimsonorblue22

I saw that. Oladipo tried every which way to fake Wigs out only to have his shot blocked.

@JayHawkFanToo not a fan of all star games, one thing about wigs, he's not a ball hog!

@Crimsonorblue22

We get to enjoy Bon Jovi...I think...

Bon Jovi is on TNT playing at the ASG festivities at Barclays Center

@ralster said:

Lets give the surgeon a bunch of totes off a joint before he operates on your kids

So by this logic we should outlaw alcohol as well? Prohibition proved to be a silly idea. Sorry this part of your argument just doesn't hold water for me. That kind of logic reminds me of some "stark" facts about another "deadly" substance...

Fact - Fully 100% of people exposed to water will die.
Fact - Over-consumption of water can cause death
Fact - Water is one of the main ingredients in all pesticides and herbicides

Taking things to extremes is often not a wise course of action.

You continued with how this nonsense "erodes this nations ideals and values". Nations are organic, growing things shared by an incredibly diverse range of citizens. Imposing your take on this countries values may not be the strongest idea you've posted here. I can't speak for the other 318 million people in this great country, but I'd wager there are a fair amount that have other takes than yours on this nation's ideals and values.

I'm not going to weigh in on the decision faced by KU athletic department on this, in my opinion it's a sad lose/lose affair. But reading your 5th well-written, well-intentioned, but offbase, posts in this thread stirred me from my usually silent readings here.

Substitute wine for pot in that argument "Lets give the surgeon a bunch of Pinot Grigios before he operates on your kids emergency appendicitis, eh?" Yes, you make a strong case for responsible use of intoxicants. But to use narrow logic to make a case for banning something that millions and millions of people take occasional joy in and hundreds of thousands use to relieve some of their suffering, just struck me wrong.

I respect your basketball posts, and even more your right to your opinion.

And I too am allowed to have an opinion... and mine is that your attempt at having a "free mind" while trying desperately to convince others here on the evils of pot may not belong on a forum for KU basketball.

@drgnslayr said:

I believe I have a different perspective from most.

Wow, that was really enjoyable to read, thank you for writing that. I enjoy your basketball posts, but this was impressive. You sound like a really interesting individual,

"because I also believe in natural treatments over synthetic medicine."

True story: a close family friend was diagnosed with MS in his twenties (as an aside, my older sister died of that disease after many years of struggle and it was a passing I would not wish on anyone or anything). After trying many medicines, he found the most effective (and with the least side effects) was pot. He grew some plants and one day was followed to his home after buying some organic fertilizer and arrested, No record of any kind, played college ball, good job, house in Johnson county, wife and infant daughter. Was given a felony charge. The best part of the story was that the state of Kansas gave him a highly addictive, high dose, opiate-based, prescription drug to use instead of a mild plant he grew for himself. That is just wrong on so many levels it boggles the mind.

@Jyhwk_InTigrtwn

The "fact" that pot works better than legal medication is a red herring. I have seen program after program where pot advocates were paired with real doctors and there was not one example pot advocates could show where legal medication did not work as well or better than pot. I have a friend that smoked pot for pain control and he said point blank that there was medication that he could use that worked as well or better but did not have the "side effect" of pot that the enjoyed greatly. Let's face it, a lot of the people that use pot for "medicinal" purposes due it as much for the "other" effect than for the primary purpose. I will qualify my comments by saying that I have never used pain control medication or pot myself so I don't have first hand only anecdotal.experience.

@JayHawkFanToo

I have to admit I think the med legal states are full of "patients" for whom regular drugs would work as good or better, and that they are simply jumping thru the legal hoops to acquire an otherwise illegal substance. If they need any drugs at all. And I can't speak to all illnesses and all the red herrings of pot being better.

I just found it pretty sad that my sick friend got slapped with a felony for growing and using an herbal remedy that made him feel better and was practically free, and then was prescribed by the state a heavy duty, but legal,expensive narcotic. I think it speaks volumes to DoubleDD's and Dragonslyr's points about health care being controlled by corporations who do whatever they can to make a profit.

You guys do realize med Mary is vaporized, pill, tonics, topical, teas, soda, edibles.... It's more than just smoked. They can also eliminate the high so patients get the benefits without the side effect. I agree with those that I too would rather have natural remedies for my aches and pains. Synthetic meds are hard on livers, kindeys, ect

@Kip_McSmithers I'm all for medical marijuana! Read stories about parents having to move out of state to get the med. Marijuana for their kids seizures. Sad stories! Feel like they are trying to change those laws.