🏀 KuBuckets Archive

One team is clearly more talented.

However, one coach will play his talented freshman, Matt McQuaid (22 minutes). The talented freshman for MSU was just the 84th ranked player. Yet somehow, he could find the floor and contribute for a hall of fame coach.

Meanwhile, one coach leaves his talented freshman on the bench. You know, the #21 player in the country. The guy that hit two beautiful jumpers in the first half. He sits. The guy that has more skill in one hand than Lucas or Traylor combined.

That same coach, in painfully predictable fashion, plays his plodding post man (Lucas) and his low talent post man (Traylor), who combine for a whopping one made basket from the field. You know, those guys with no ranking. The guys in their 4th and 5th seasons, who have made very little (if any) improvement.

Meanwhile, that same coach, leaves a talented post player (Mickelson) on the bench. You know, the same player that displayed diverse talents set at the WUGs. The same guy that could change a few shots when folks drive to the hoop in a game like this. Three minutes.

Further, and perhaps even more disturbing, was that Kansas was not running any offense much of the second half. it was a joke. It displayed a clear lack of preparation. And a clear lack of purpose. Where was the high/low? It was non-existent. This was much of the same garbage we saw at the end of last season. Out of control driving of the ball to the basket. Devonte Graham being permitted to throw up garbage shots instead of creating, which is his supposed strength.

Of course, no plays run to set up three point shooting. We took a sum total of 11 three pointers until we missed four in the last 30 seconds. In one of the great quotes of this young season, Dick Vitale quoted Self as saying that Greene was the "best shooter" he has ever had at Kansas. And, of course, Greene remains on the bench. Nine minutes. Did he even play in the second half? No set plays run to free the best shooter ever at Kansas under Self. Nope, he sits on the bench. And Svi, you know, the 5-5 guy from three? No threes even attempted.

Here's the best stat -- Greene and Svi combined to shoot -- here we go -- ZERO THREE POINTERS. NOT ONE ATTEMPT between them from three. Izzo has to be laughing. He was at the end of the game. I saw him. That same guy who has been to 7 final fours in 17 seasons.

Once again, our coach does not have the team prepared. Once again, our coach makes painfully questionable decisions regarding playing time.

Bragg and Mickelson -- combined, individually, any way you slice it -- are better than Lucas and Traylor.

Memo to Self - Lucas and Traylor CAN'T FREAKING SCORE! IS THIS DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND? Lucas and Traylor combined for 32 minutes. One made field goal. One. Bragg -- 11 minutes. Mickelson -- 3 minutes. 32 minutes to 14 minutes.

When your team can't score, you can't play guys like Traylor and Lucas. They simply aren't offensive players. Indisputable fact. You can't have a complete offensive dead spot on the floor when the players in question bring very little else to the table.

It is flat embarrassing for Kansas -- an elite, top 5 program -- to have either player in such a prominent role. But this is what Self has chosen. Are we really in for a season where Lucas and Traylor are our 2nd and 3rd post players? Talent wins, and we are playing two unranked post players as our 2nd and 3rd post players. Ok, sorry, Traylor was #131, right? I stand corrected.

It's embarrassing. But hey, we're used to being embarrassed -- Kentucky, WSU, Stanford. It's all the players' fault. Or injuries. Or some such nonsense.

Tell me, how healthy was MSU coming into tonight's game? Hmmm? Right. We can't use that excuse.

Michigan State is a professionally run operation. It's the type of team you face in the NCAA tourney. We weren't ready for that. With a team laden with upper classmen, we weren't ready.

The question is "why"?

@HighEliteMajor

Well said. And I wish I had some clue why Lucas and Jam Tray get minutes but, alas there is no LOGICAL explanation.

Lucas shot an airball from point blank range completely over the basket! Just like last year.

I wonder if HCBS has an open door policy? Bc if I were Hunter Mickelson I'd respectfully go to his office tomorrow and ask for more minutes.

I want Diallo to be eligible but do we know for sure he'll get to play? Personally, I'd give all the post minutes to Mick, Bragg & Diallo when we hit conference play.

I also would give Svi another 10-15 min per game.

I'm done

It was frustrating for sure. It seemed like Izzo's strategy to use his bench early and often ultimately paid off.

Selden was AWOL for most of the game. Greene didn't attempt a 3 (of course it's hard from the bench.)

...and the ill-fated layups from our fast breaks left me longing for the way Roy's teams ran the break...

Valentine gets credit, but we shall see if he's legitimately that amazing throughout the season, or if we simply created and then fed the monster.

Finally -- we have now lost the opening jump for both of our games. (Remember the article by @Jesse-Newell ?)

@HighEliteMajor
I don't know how but you read my mind . Your comments were spot on. My buds and i were all in agreement during the game, especially when it came to what players were being played and not played. Especially regarding Lucas over Mickelson especially after WUG, really bizarre. Graham should stop shooting and distribute the balls to our dead on three point shooters, OH WAIT! their on the bench. Just sad really, some times I wonder if self is lost.

Izzo sees Greene go 6/6 and says 'Don't let him get open.' Rather than draw up plays to get him open, Self says Óh well, he's not getting open this game' and pulls him. Result? 0/0

After seeing Hunter against N. CO. I thought 'how do you keep this guy off the floor?'I guess Bill found a way.

And Bill insists on trying to beat Michigan St. inside, even thought he's only got one reliable big man scorer. And even though M State is always well stocked with capable big bodies.

I wonder if Hunter wishes he'd chosen M State.

I agree with the mysterious absence of Mickelson. At one point late in the game, I asked my TV why wouldn't Coach put Hunter in there... There was no answer.

On a positive note: good night for Perry. (pyrrhic victory)

Feels like the same squad, same outcomes, same deliberate choking of games doesn't it? And the same players playing poorly? I believe @wissoxfan83 was the one that said this is the same team just a year older. He's right, its the same team and we should expect no difference in result come March, no matter how far away that is. Last Night is exactly how this team will perform when things don't go their way, when the opponent doesn't go away and fights through their problems.

Without Diallo I knew that Self would revert to bad habits, that force feeding the post players we have into major minutes would come back to haunt us, it already has, its already squandered a marquee win and it will happen again. The domino effect that it creates without having him is profound. I thought we would mask the issue because its early, but its clear already that without your 2nd best post player in the game this is the struggles we will see. Rebounding was a huge weakness last night, how many 2nd and 3rd chance 3 pointers did they make last night- daggers. Rim Protection was non-existent. Those are the deficiencies Diallo would help correct but we will never know that, he's an outcast with this team at this point. But knowing how Self operates, Diallo probably would have played behind Hunter- which was what 3 minutes? Gotta follow the pecking order of bigs don't we...

I don't believe Self is the biggest culprit of the game, but he gets no credit for how he lets things spiral the way they do.

At some point the players have to make shots and point blank shots at that. How many layups did Lucas/Mason/Graham miss point blank??? The number had to be close or over 10.. Our Execution in the 2nd half is exactly how you lose games. Missed key FT's, mason bricking 1&1's, Lucas did the same. Name one thing either of these veterans did that is worth talking about. They flat out stunk. Add Devonte to that list, he took so many ill-advised shots I lost count. He was anything but our pass-first assist hunter we had become to see last year. He's a chuck shot happy fellow so far this year, apparently has the green light from anywhere.

@HighEliteMajor

I feel your pain in your post, but this is the same Self we've now gotten accustomed to seeing? Did you have that glimmer of hope that Self would finally listen to us in some way, that playing this player and this player would be the difference? There is no answer to your Why, because that's the downfall of a great coach who believes in what he believes in no matter if it loses the game or not. This is our leader, and its becoming increasingly harder to just follow him with blind faith. He will always have his Jamari Traylor even when he graduates.

Yes it was disappointing but my gosh people, there are more important things going on in life than trashing kids, coaches and every other imaginable reason for this loss other than the fact that we just did not execute when the times were there. Knew this site and the other one would be OMG THE SKY IS FALLING. I'm more embarrassed that true "fans" are cutting and running. Perhaps each and every one on this team was given a real gut check and know that they ALL must get better going forward.

Think the Duke fans are saying it is the end of the road after their poor showing? Without Plumlee they would have had a score like our UK game last year.

@RockChalkinTexas

We saw and played differently this Summer. We didn't see any evidence that Self learned or carried things over.

That's why the huge disappointment by many of us.

We could take losing if we felt the coach was putting in best position to win, and we just came up short.

Look at the negativity around shot making that comes out of Coach's mouth and then gets picked up and parroted by players. Then we see things like best shooters not taking any 3 pt attempts. Starts at the head.

@HighEliteMajor Great analysis, as usual. I would only add another reason why Greene should be in the game: he is an excellent free throw shooter. If he is not open for a three, he can still drive. This is not the best aspect of his game, but--with the new rules--chances are he might get fouled. Chances are this probably gets us two points. I am having flashbacks to last season, and I am not liking what I see.

I got this from http://kansas.247sports.com/Board/59455/Contents/Im-looking-forward-41176465 ↗ but it is pretty close to how I feel.

to when this current cycle of players filters through. Some of what I am about to say is going to be unpopular with people and will even get me a few "you are a moron" responses but here it is... I think the current roster, at least the foundational pieces is dysfunctional both on a collective and on an individual basis. I am referring specifically to Mason, Selden, Ellis and Traylor.

I think Frank is a hard nosed player who wants to win in the worst way and I dig that but as a point guard (or a guard facilitating the offense) he falls short, he does not make the players around him better. On a fast break he will go up against a big man and try to score rather than dump it off to a trailing Jayhawk. Perry Ellis is a great, local student/athlete who can really score in many different ways but he is almost an example of the rare college "tweener" and without a dominant big man presence on the floor with him we get owned on the boards against teams with comparable size/talent. Wayne is Wayne, overall an extremely disappointing recruit who really hasn't improved like a guy with his talent should over the course of a few years. He is another player who sort of lacks a true position on the floor and his inability to create scoring opportunities for himself is bewildering at times. And Jamari is undersized and under-talented... great story and I'm so happy for him in life but there is no reason he should be starting and logging major minutes for a top college program.

In my opinion we need a fresh start, a reboot for lack of a better term. We need pieces that fit.

Not sure where else to put this so here it goes.

I didn't get to watch the game last night but this morning, wasn't allowed to watch it last night for other reasons stated in another post, long long long story. I have complaints, I have thoughts, I have issues. Why did KU change it's offense late in the game when it was working for us? Why did it go from high low and the weave to "Perry must touch it every time down the floor?" He can score, but it was like Self scripted the change no matter what the game score. But it kills the flow of the game for the other 4 guys.

Hunter played very very little, I think I read here 3 mins. In those 3 mins MSU scored 7 KU 2.

Lucas needs to borrow some gloves from the football team so he can hold on to the ball, may he never be handed a baby, I'm pretty sure he'd bobble it and possibly drop it.

How did we miss so many FT's down the stretch?

They had 9 blocks, pretty sure Frank had two and Perry had the other 7, "OUCH" no rim ever when Perry scores. Dunk the damn ball man!! That goes to all the bigs, Dunk it!! Go strong, soft is for toilet paper not post players.

Jamari and Brennen, keep driving to the hole, you get fouled with the new rules.

Svi can dribble, he can pass, he can't shoot in the paint unless it's a layup.

DG man I get it, everyone has an off night, sometimes putting the gun back in the holster on an off night is a good thing.

Bragg, speed, athletic, needs control of his body, skinny or not, he gets going and speeds up but can't control his own body, man is he long though. See good things there.

Jamari, two bad fouls back to back, not bad D, need to dunk it like the other bigs need to, and not settle for a finger roll or short jumper, those get blocked against true bigs. fight fight fight for those rebounds, so a few nice block outs, just didn't time the rebounds well coming off the rim.

Frank, get on the treadmill, if you are going to try and go 107mph the whole game, better be in shape for it. And don't take your frustrations out on a missed FT by making a dumb pass the next time down the floor, missed the front end twice, I believe two straight trips down the floor and then a TO, thats 6 possible points that went bye bye.

As a team getting out rebounded by 20 is a joke, time to put the cone on the rim at practice and do some rebounding drills, lots and lots of them. Maybe Self needs to break out the football helmets and pads??

Positive ALERT!!!! Low turnovers, hey something has to come up roses.

OK deep breath, count to 10, get the floral print shirts out and the destine on the nose. Lets get ready for Maui!!!!!

@JRyman The roses you are speaking of are under the steaming pile of poo behind the bear!!ROSES.jpg ↗

@Statmachine said:

@JRyman The roses you are speaking of are under the steaming pile of poo behind the bear!!ROSES.jpg ↗

Well that just means they will be very very well fertilized and should grow to be bigger than all the other roses.

Statman: I have to agree but I will add that Perry is our leader and however he performs is the way the rest of the team performs. As long as he is our team leader this team will have problems. To me the big difference between the two teams last night was the emotion of MS in the last 8 minutes. This happens to us even in our league. The stoic Perry does not play with emotion and neither does his followers. I noticed that when Perry was elbowed in the nose last year during the Wichita game and had to leave the stadium the rest of the team stepped up and and actually made some progress. They rely too much on Perry who is not going to be a chest thumping emotional Thomas type player. We may win the Big 12 again this year but with Perry running the ship we will not be a national team because other teams have learned that all they have to do is put pressure on Perry and he will wilt which carries over into the rest of the team. Bill is committed to Perry and holds him up as an example of greatness so if he is the greatest the other guys have to emulate him.

As I pointed out in the Predictions threat, I predicted fouls, shooting %'s, Valentine going for 20+, and players feeling the minutes crunch were all going to happen. It would feel better if we won and all of this was true, but we lost and all of this was true so part of me wishes not even predicting anything at all.

The positive was we took advantage of the fouls for most of the game but when it got tight we either missed important FT's (Mason & Lucas) or stopped getting the calls that were fueling the lead. an otherwise great FT night 24-30 gets overshadowed when 2 of those misses were at the most important part of the game.

Can't win games shooting 34% from the field and 20% from 3. This is the same squad that was over 200th in the country in FG % last year. Hot shooting games will mask a deficient scoring team. Our backcourt went 9-36 from the field, including 2-13 from 3 land. The land of the bricks you could say happened. I saw Jesse post that we were 12-33 on layups. How is that even possible, I even saw Lucas miss the entire basket on a backboard layup attempt. Michigan St ends up 46% and 42% from 3, all from a coach that preaches the same principles as Self does but yet he's got guys who can make shots. It's simple, we make 40% of our shots in this game we would have won. Perry also had a grand chance to put us up 1 on that FT line jumper but he missed and then McQuaid nailed a 3 to put it away. That's a shot Perry has to make, your Senior, your go-to player wide open that's on him.

So what's the hope? There's plenty, its a bad loss we all know that but hopefully the guys learn from it and more importantly Self learns from it. This team has to become a better shooting team or else we will continue to have these games, that's a fact.

@BeddieKU23 said:

when 2 of those misses were at the most important part of the game.

Are you talking the two misses that were on the front end of one and ones? Not only did those misses cost us two points but possibly 4. If you want to take in the misses on the front end and then add the back end as misses as well, the FT% gets really ugly.

With all the whistles that will be called this year it is vital more than ever that FT's are made at 83% or higher, and you can't miss the front ends, killer man just killer.

Theme of this thread...

!torch-bearing-mob-940x540.jpg ↗

@JRyman

Yes I'm talking about those misses back to back. Lucas is a poor shooter so your only hope is to pray but Mason missing is inexcusable, but then again his whole game was that

@BeddieKU23
I think some credit has to go to Izzy and co for getting into Mason's head a little.

That and I think he pressed himself too much. He saw that DG wasn't playing well and couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat and tried to do too much, and he can do a lot, but that wasn't his thing last night.

Credit to MSU for playing tough D and scouting correctly on our guys. I think that flustered them

@BeddieKU23 said:

its a bad loss we all know that but hopefully the guys learn from it and more importantly Self learns from it. This team has to become a better shooting team or else we will continue to have these games, that's a fact.

All very true. All well said. The part in bold though--what indication do you have that makes you think this is possible? I have none. Self will not change. I'd bet you just about anything I have. And as long as we bash our heads against the wall with bad ball, I foresee a repeat of last season as a whole.

Good lord, I was going to come on here and go on a rant but @HighEliteMajor pretty much hit most of what I was going to say. This loss is on Self, no doubt about it. He needs to study the tape, look in the mirror, and recognize that he is not doing a good job with the talent he has. There is no reason we should have lost that game last night. His choice of players on the court and not utilizing his bench is inexcusable. Lucas cannot finish at the rim, its so disappointing to see a guy that has good size fail to improve one bit in three years. How is that possible? He must have hit his ceiling. Regardless, its killing the team to have him in the game because he cannot score, cannot defend, and leaves us playing 5 vs 4. Bragg and Mickelson should have been used way more than they were. There was a video clip where someone was interviewing Self and he said something like "we have 11 guys that think they are going to get significant minutes but the fact is that its not going to happen. We need guys to separate." Why the hell can he not use all of his guys if they are good enough to play?!? Having a deep rotation should be a weapon. Having fresh players in the last 10 minutes of the game would win us a ton of games and more importantly, keep us from ending up in games that come down to the wire where we can lose.

What happened to the press??? Why run the press against weaker teams but not against better ones? It speeds up the game which plays into our strengths. It makes the opponent uncomfortable and gives us some occasional turnovers. When Self has these guys playing fast and keeps them fresh by consistently rotating in players, the team plays great. When the game gets tight, so does Self and that's when we find ourselves in these close games that come down to the wire with tired players in the lineup and end up being a coinflip whether we win or lose. I.e. NCAA tournament, Conference tournament, WUG championship against Germany, etc etc.

Next rant, the halfcourt offense is TERRIBLE. I can't think of a time that the "weave" has actually been useful. For the love of god, why can't we run some real offense. Every once in a while we run a nice backdoor play that results in an alley-oop dunk but not yesterday. We had all returning players on the court and are desperate for a basket and they were running the same entry level weave offense that we run every year that doesn't do anything. So much for having returning veterans and that being an advantage.

Lastly and maybe most importantly, shooting the 3 is not fools gold, its real gold. Its going to determine if we win or lose in most of our games this season. Face the facts. We suck at inside scoring. There is no excuse for not running plays for Svi and Greene. If they aren't in the game we still have solid three point shooters and should still look for threes. We will not win games if we don't hit threes. Self needs to embrace it and change his 'fool's gold' mentality or its going to be much more agonizing season than it needs to be.

@JRyman

Mason puts himself in that hole where he thinks he has to do it all alone. He was having a bad shooting game so he kept feeding it instead of being a leader. When he plays bad, KU plays bad more often than not.

I give credit to Izzo for the subbing of McQuaid for tum-tum. Otherwise KU's players lost this game by not making the most basic of shots- a Layup.

@MoonwalkMafia
I get we all want to blame Self for his distribution of minutes to certain players but this isn't something new. This is our coach, I'm shocked so many people thought it was going to be different. We need Self to learn from this loss but that's just wishful thinking. He's prepared this team the same way he prepared last years squad. So far having a veteran squad has gotten him no further along then a young team.

@RockkChalkk

We lost because of a poor shooting night. 34% isn't good enough to beat most teams, regardless of talent. Michigan St made every basket from the 5 minute mark, KU was 2-12 in that span including missed FT's in 1&1 situations. Perry missed a wide open jumper for the lead which even with the ensuing 3 would have made it a 1 possession game instead of 2.

@BeddieKU23 It's not just the distribution of minutes, it's that he didn't coach when we needed him to. Driving at the basket in hopes of getting the other team in foul trouble is not coaching. That's a base strategy. But when you're on the ropes that can't be your only option. You have two of the best shooters in the country on this roster, you have to get them looks. I mean, my god, we weren't even going high-low in the second half. Sure, we threw it in to Lucas (???), but Ellis didn't even see much.

@BeddieKU23 said:

Otherwise KU’s players lost this game by not making the most basic of shots- a Layup.

Did we have any dunks last night? Why don't our bigs dunk the darn ball? This isn't Hoosiers full of small farm kids, dunking makes you feel good, just ask Tyrel Reed.

Has Perry ever made the Rim regret being a rim when he scores? It's like a fine leather purse, it's always smooth and soft when he scores.

@MoonwalkMafia

Your right it was a poorly coached game when the game got tight. I just saw something that said our guards took 21 of 32 2nd half shots. Good if your making them, the opposite when your top 3 go 9-36 for the game. I just think we are all looking to blame the coach when the real reason for the loss was the fact the ball didn't get in the hoop enough...

@JRyman

I don't believe we had a dunk last night. No Lobs which are a staple of the offense.

@wrwlumpy

Excellent! Is that from "Young Frankenstein?"

I just want to stay in bed and CRY this morning.

:cry:

So I just checked the box score and according to ESPN Devonte had 38 minutes! 38! That means he was only not in the game for 2 minutes! The only other player on the floor that much was Valentine! And what in the world did Devonte show that game to cause Greene to sit? Or move Perry to the 3 to help the awful rebounding? Or play 4 on 5?

I love Devonte. Last year he quickly grew to be one of my favorites. But ask him if he had a great game last night. Even a good game. Was he the best player on the floor? No way he says yes! And this is not on Devonte. He did not show a lack of effort. He made some bad decisions early that plagued his mindset for the rest of the game. Did he ever have a chance to think about his decisions? Reboot his mindset? Bad coaching decision.

That said, the players should have won this game in the first half and never allowed poor coaching down the stretch to matter. KU was way better all half and left up 6 due to poor execution of a solid game plan.

Second half adjustments? Odd substitutions (or lack there of)? Those are questions for Self. But again, none of that should have mattered. This team didn't "crack it open" as Self likes to say when they had many chances to do so.

FYI I am still crying.

@benshawks08

I don't believe Graham has looked good so far in exhibitions games etc. small sample size but he's seems to have the green light whenever he feels like it, the same guy who's supposed to be the opposite of Mason and gets people easy baskets. 20% from the field and 20% from 3 are just awful #'s to look at. I get its early but man talk about throwing up some bricks

@benshawks08

"So I just checked the box score and according to ESPN Devonte had 38 minutes! 38! That means he was only not in the game for 2 minutes! The only other player on the floor that much was Valentine! And what in the world did Devonte show that game to cause Greene to sit?"

Well... you are right! Devonte had a horrible game!

But let's step backwards for a minute, and broaden our perspectives.

I'm pretty sure I have some others who also feel this way... but isn't Devonte a player that has potential to be a real game-changer?

What if Devonte can become the one to carry a chip? He seems to have a personality drawn towards wanting to be the leader and to be at the top. Maybe a game like this, having played all but 2 minutes, is what he needed to take OWNERSHIP of his failure! He can't really put the blame somewhere else. Yes... it is a team effort, but accountability breaks down to individual performances. Maybe he can bounce back from this with desire, energy, aggressiveness and start leading this team.

What bothered me the most was the performance from Frank.

I really expected him to come through...

Is this the beginning of the "changing of the guard?" Is Devonte going to step up now and lead this team instead of Frank?

We've been edging towards this for a while.

I hope CS realizes that it can be a great thing to have two PGs in a game... but there can only be ONE LEADER!

One of those guys is going to have to take possession of that team.

'08 is not the norm. We had leadership through 3 guards. That is very rare, and it took a miracle come back to win and beat an opponent that didn't have near the talent/experience we had.

I've always kind of wondered if that was the wrong message learned by CS.

@Statmachine

"FYI I am still crying."

Come on, Stat.... BOUNCE BACK!

The only reason this can hurt for too long if you had ambitions of "perfection." The same "perfection" Calipari had last year.

That isn't a healthy perspective to have.

You better prepare yourself for more losses... because they are going to come. And unless we find the missing piece it will come in March, too.

This team was over-rated. WUG built plenty of delusion of the quality of this team. I say that, but we DO have the potential for greatness.... but it isn't going to come over night. Lots of hard work and struggle to get there.

There will be a new day for battle. Jump out of the trench and run forward with all guns drawn, buddy!

This could easily be the best thing to happen to us!

Frustrating last ten minutes last night, but it's so fun to have college basketball back. Couple thoughts from the game...

The only justification Self could ever have to play either Lucas or Traylor is that they help on the glass and on the defensive end. It's clearly never been about their offense (understatement of the year). What we saw last night, especially in the last 7 minutes, was a team that couldn't get a defensive rebound and an MSU team that had no fear of having their shot blocked at the rim. If Lucas and Traylor can't provide blocked or altered shots at the rim or get a defensive rebound, then they have no purpose being on the court. It's been multiple years and we've yet to see either of those things from them so to expect that to appear now seems a bit too optimistic for me and why it's so frustrating to see them continually get the playing time that they do.

With how good of a shooting team this is, I think it's great to have guards who can break down defenses off the dribble. That said, when Mason/Graham/Selden drove last night, it was often reckless and out of control. Rarely saw eyes up looking for shooters to dish to and often left them taking tough shots or getting a charge. Add that to having no real offense other than having the guards just drive and create their own shot, it makes for just plain bad offense.

I always enjoy the discussions here. Glad to have a place to talk KU hoops.

@drgnslayr I hope you are right. We surely can't complain about Self using the early hook on him and wrecking his confidence that way. I wonder if playing through some early losses could be a benefit for this team. Will we have a better chip with a mediocre season and a 3-6 seed for the tournament?

A chip is usually developed after going through or overcoming some form of adversity. I'm not sure whether it is fortunate or unfortunate that these early season games (especially against good teams) end up mattering very little for us most years. Will this early season loss be enough to build that chip or will we need to suffer a few more setbacks?

I too worry that constantly trying to recreate 2008 is the real fools gold. That team was special and times have changed.

This was me last night!

@drgnslayr This team was over-rated. WUG built plenty of delusion of the quality of this team.

But Self didn't play the WUG roster...he left Mickelson on the bench all but 3 minutes.

@Bwag do you think our ranking was due to having diallo?

@Crimsonorblue22

on paper there isn't 4 better teams out there, we just didn't play to the ranking last night in the last 8 minutes or so.

Even without Diallo we have what 9 guys Soph & up..Hard not to be ranked high. Duke was a top 10 team on paper but they didn't play to their ranking either.

@Statmachine

Thanks for the laugh. I think you set me straight again. It was a little warped after that KU game last night.

@Crimsonorblue22 probably, but everything we have heard about Diallo was that he was more raw than Bragg. So I'm not sure having him now would be the magic in the near term. We are good enough to protect the ranking we have, but not if Self plays Lucas/Traylor consistently.

I'm not sure with them in the game that it doesn't upset the balance of the overall system, putting pressure on the guards to feel they have to compensate and thence come out like they did last night.

What was most frustrating to me is to again see Self panic halfway through the second half and go to the "just drive it to the rim Frank/Andrew/Elijah/Tyshawn/Sherron offense"... you know, the offensive strategy that has ended every NCAA tournament since 2008.

What O What could be going on between Bill Self and Hunter Mickelson??? There is hardly one poster on this Buckets site who does not believe that, given court time, Hunter Mickelson could play circles around Lucas and Traylor. The cautious insertion of Bragg last night I can well understand; altho the way MSU played the game was perhaps conducive to Carlton's gleaning more minutes. But the real enigma so far this season has been Mickelson's limited duty. If not due to injury, there must be some serious disciplinary stuff going on between Hunter and his coach. His inactivity appears to be snuffing the chances for this squad to develop into a top contender.

It looks to me like the key to beating this Kansas team (or lineup, anyway) is to defend the three point line. With zero looks for our two best shooters, we look just average. Unfortunately, Bill makes it very easy to defend the 3 because he runs no 3pt offense. You just have to stay within 5 ft. of a stationary man when the ball's on this side of the court. I don't doubt that that was part of Izzo's game plan and I'll bet we'll see more of it throughout the season.

Good points have been made. Self leaves himself open to second guessing on the line up when the guys that play don't get it done (Lucas, Traylor).
My biggest gripe is the wild shots off of penetration that Devonte (especially) and also Frank continued to put up. A lot of those had no chance.
And give Greene and Svi a chance to show their stuff a little more. Shave some minutes from Graham and Selden.
The criticism of Self is probably justified...some of the same things keep happening. That will continue to be the case.
I'll still take him.
But you have to sit back and take this for what it was.....an early season loss to a ranked opponent with a great coach and a very good player (maybe great...I don't know) that had a great night.
We didn't play well...Is that the first time that has happened? No, and it won't be the last.
It happens.

@RockChalkinTexas I don't disagree with your sentiment. Its a young season, and maybe this team (that couldn't take 1/3rd of the roster to WUG/Korea) needed a reality-check that a top15 team isn't going to fold up and go away. Yes, they will learn. Yes, our gold-medal winners need to feel the sting of defeat just to refocus them.

But I also thing @HighEliteMajor raises proper discussion points. We HAVE more talented kids than Lucas sitting on the bench (Hunter, Bragg). Hunter a top50 recruit. Bragg an F'n McDAA that you know Calipari would be giveng 20mpg to right from Day 1 because Calipari wants what a 20mpg Bragg can give in March Madness. I'd say that philosophy works.

We've given all the mpg needed to see nothing, nuthin!...out of Lucas.

I will differ from @HighEliteMajor just a little bit regarding Traylor, who I think should be the 4th big, because he does hustle, he seems to be boxing out for rbds better, he dives on the floor, he puts pressure on the D with his dribble drive, makes his FTs, and apparently he has developed a 10-12ft pullup J, ...none of which Lucas has. Nor can anyone say Jamari lacks in confidence. Wish I could say the same about Lucas' body language, but when you got no game, how much confidence can you truly have?

@JRyman Man, Ryman...you...you...actually pulled a rose out of a pile-o-crap...!

Frankly, lets put the WHOLE ARGUMENT about Hunter's weight and Bragg's weight to rest right now!

The logic goes something like this:

How many of Calipari's 6'9 "athletics" weigh more than 220?

Kevin Young, our starting 4 man in 2013, was 190, a fact which should shame any further mention of the weight issue.

Calipari's 220 lb kids GET mpg...

Kevin Young got mpg, and had heart...

Jeff Withey never got much past 225lbs...

If we don't change something in the post-rotation lineup, we will get a Tourney exit, which is exactly what this loss felt like...

Everyone stop posting for a while, please. I need to get back to reality/work!!

Anybody who watched the game last night saw just how skinny Carlton Bragg is. According to KU, he weighs 220 lbs. Does anybody actually believe he weighs 220?

I don't remember if it was here or not, but somebody actually said MSU's style of play was conducive for Carlton Bragg, really? 4 points, 1 foul and goose eggs in every other category is conducive? Mid range jumper is all Bragg can do right now because he's too damn skinny and weak to hold his position. He had this issue in Korea as well, but because KU steam rolled just everybody, it was overlooked.

KU needs help in the low post, but Carlton Bragg is not the answer because he is not a physical presence. The rotation really needs to be Mickelson, Traylor, Lucas in that order with Bragg subbing for Ellis exclusively. When/if Diallo gets eligible, he moves behind Mickelson and gets more minutes as his skills develop.

@ralster I have the same issues with the progress (or lack thereof) of Lucas as everyone else. I didn't select him or anyone else individually to lay blame or focus on. I was putting my disappointment out there on the whole team. I sense people venting but honestly it is only the SECOND game of a very long season.

Keegan's ratings

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@wrwlumpy

I rewatched part of the game and noticed there were times when Traylor didn't get a rebound, and I know what you guys are thinking, "really!??" But he not only sealed his guy off but pushed his man into another MSU player allowing Mason or Ellis to get the rebound.

I'm not sure what hurt him more last night, landing on the ball on the floor weirdly, or when he lost his footing and almost got landed on by an MSU player?

@Bwag

"But Self didn’t play the WUG roster…he left Mickelson on the bench all but 3 minutes."

He did play the WUG roster... for the final game against Germany!

Lucas got the big minutes in that one.

@drgnslayr What I saw in Hunter last night in limited mins. was he didn't move on offense, he stayed on the block, he set a screen three feet away from his teammate that couldn't be used. On D he ran down in the paint which is what he is to do, but he was under the basket, making Graham have to come off his man and leaving him open for a three, it ended up being a make.

He had one foul, no biggie there.

Sparty scored 7 points in his three minute stretch. KU scored 2.

The problem with Traylor?

He does actually offer us a big weapon on offense. When he commits to a low post drive, he is a threat to either score or feed for an assist. But... that requires us to actually run offense.

This ended up being a BAD BALL second half...

If we are going to run BAD BALL as a game strategy, we are better off giving minutes to Hunter and Carlton. Hunter does give us some defense and boards. Carlton... why not give a star freshman more experience minutes?

If you give a guy just a few minutes of a game, he doesn't take OWNERSHIP of that game. Carlton didn't play long enough to take ownership. We can't point a finger at his play and level the blame on him. If he had received more minutes in this game, we might have won... but more... had we lost, he would have had to carry the burden of ownership on that loss, which will typically help a freshman bear down beyond that game.

@drgnslayr I really like your point about "playing enough minutes to take ownership & responsibility for the loss". It applies to Devonte as a learning experience, and maybe a bit for Mason. But there were at least 2 or 3 Mason's missed bunnies that were ohhh, so close...much closer than the weird stuff Devonte was throwing up.

Classic case of forcing the action doesn't put you at your best, whilst letting the "game come to you" in rhythm gives better reproducibility because muscle memory gets flustered and affected by the adrenaline of stress. Late in games, losing, we call that the "pucker factor". Interestingly, in 2008, Chalmers and Sherron never puckered.

Lucas, unfortunately for him and for KU, is showing us there is "no" window of productivity, regarding his ability. I am down on him, but not so down on the team. I am a bit down on Self, but, hey, this is his baby to re-adjust. Sink or swim.

My son told me we don't play a ranked team again until our conference opener vs Baylor in early Jan.

@RockChalkinTexas I get that it is only the second game of the year, but what makes you think that there will be any improvement? This looks like the same team from the past two seasons.

@wrwlumpy
yep!
put bolts on Jamari's neck, Self's neck and Lucas too :)

Bracketology: Kansas' loss not as costly as some might think

November 18, 2015 3:04 am ET

Jerry Palm
CBS Sports

Last week, we unveiled my preseason bracket projection. The preseason bracket is unique in one important way. It is the only bracket I will do this season that tries to predict what the final bracket in March will look like.

Doing something like that before a single game has been played requires using a LOT of assumptions. If you follow college basketball regularly, you will not be surprised to learn that one of those assumptions is that nobody is going undefeated in the regular season. Oh, sure, it happened last year with Kentucky and the year before with Wichita State, but those are the only two teams in a quarter of a century to finish the regular season without a loss. So, I like my chances with that assumption.

That brings us to Tuesday night. Kansas, one of my projected No. 1 seeds, lost to Michigan State in the Champions Classic in Chicago. Two good teams went at it and one of them had to lose.

However, that loss does not preclude Kansas from becoming a top seed this March. In fact, with the relative expected strength of the Jayhawks' schedule, they could probably lose another handful of games before you start wondering if they can still be a No. 1 seed.

So, it's not time to hit the panic button yet. This isn't football. One loss isn't going to keep you out of the playoff, and it may not even keep you out of the top four.

@RockChalkinTexas Well...let's see if this coach and this team can earn a 1-seed. Nothing is given, it must be earned.

@wrwlumpy Jamari's statline of 6pts/7rbds/4for4FTs (100%) is about all we can expect from a role player. Jamari Traylor isn't the reason we lost this game (see all guys ranked below Mason...). Heck, he had enough wherewithal to stay focused at the FT line and hit every one of them, unlike some of our starters in this 1 game.

One additional note: KU announcers said during the exhibition games that "the WUG was extremely physical, couldn't buy a foul call", while in the NCAA we have a big readjustment to undertake.

It seemed to me that Self's gameplan was to have Mason, Graham, and Selden FORCE the action and dribble drive to try to draw fouls. But the refs didn't call it as tight as they did the 2 exhib games, for sure. Self has also said in the past: drive to "pass", not just drive to score. The 1 time in the 2nd half we find Selden in the corner, he hits a 3. But we let Valentine score 2 x 2pts in the same sequence of 3 possessions. Bad D, net -1 pt.

So many threads on last night's game - good observations and analysis throughout. My takeaway. It wasn't an embarrassing loss - MSU is a very good team and very well coached. In the abstract, losing a tight game to the Spartans on a neutral court isn't anything to be ashamed of.

What is disconcerting is that we've seen this movie before - the second half especially was eerily similar to each of our losses down the stretch last year. Blowing leads, shortening the bench in the second half (notwithstanding that using the bench contributed to getting leads in the first place), abandoning any semblance of running an offense (resorting to Bad Ball), and failing to get ANY defensive stops.

Admittedly, one game is not much of a sample set, but it sure looks like that notwithstanding more experience and a supposedly deeper bench, 2016 will be a replay of 2015 (and '13 and '14) in too many respects:

Limited capability to execute the high-low; no low post scoring threat other than Perry (and although he got his points, he still struggled to score against the Spartan bigs).

No scheming for good three point looks.

Mason (and Graham) driving into the paint without looking to dish.

Selden driving in a straight line and flailing his arms when he gets anywhere near the hoop.

Missing bunnies and inability to finish at the rim.

Inability to protect the rim.

Inability to get ANY stops in crunch time.

Too many minutes going to Jamari and Landon.

Too few minutes going to younger, but clearly more talented players (in stark contrast to the Dukes, UKs, and MSUs of the world) who need the PT to be able to develop and overcome early freshmen mistakes.

As naseum, ad infinitum....

The bottom line is that we were outscored by 17 points over the last 9:30 of the game. We gave up 29 points during that stretch - works out to better than 120 ppg! Again, lack of offensive execution, and, more importantly, defensive breakdown very much like 4 or 5 of our losses late last year.

Do we have talent? Yes. Do we have depth? Yes. But we also have real demonstrable limitations, which means that we have to play to our strengths, rather than playing into the opponents hands.

As a result of recruiting failures running several years now, we cannot run the high-low effectively - it's Fools Gold to try to do so. It was the hallmark of Self teams during his first decade, but we haven't had anyone able to score consistently and efficiently down low against good competition since 2012.

Unfortunately, we are also not an especially good defensive team. Our perimeter players are perhaps just bit above average. None can consistently stop penetration and Mason and Graham are undersized. I continue to be of the view, based on 3 years of evidence, that Selden is actually a minus defender against better, quicker players; but definitely not a stopper. That puts more pressure on the interior defenders, but the sad fact is that we have virtually no interior defensive presence. Certainly no rim protection (other than Mickelson). Opposing guards and wings clearly don't fear attacking the paint against us.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Because we do have more talent and athleticism than most teams, we will win 20+ games. But we won't consistently win against better competition unless we (HCBS) can change stripes, adapt and play to our strengths. That means on the offensive end opening up the court and taking advantage of our speed, ability to shoot threes (with BG and Svi), which in turn should open up things for Perry down low. It means applying more pressure on the defensive end, shortening the clock and not allowing other teams to get into their sets as quickly. And, both mean taking advantage of our depth to wear down other teams and change personnel on the fly to take advantage of mismatches.

We'll see. RCJH.

@DCHawker
Wonderful post. You explain the sick feeling that many Kansas fans have now. Why is their no development. How can can Michigan State's post player develop a brand new post move over a summer when our bigs have been stagnant over that past couple of years. Why has Wayne Selden not developed over multiple years at KU. He dribbles the same, drives to the basket the same as when he first arrived here. And so on.

The thing that bothers me the most is really the poor defense. Even for a short interior team, we do not defend well. Look at a team like Wichita State or even Michigan State. They manage to challenge shots that we do not.

i do not know if I would start Selden even. During the game they did a quick sideline interview with Izzo when they were down early, and he said something about Selden making 3's and being streaky...He would take Selden shooting for us all day every day.

I am not really going into the sky is falling mode, Izzo may be the best, but I think Self is an elite head coach as well.

Mason, Svi, Greene, Ellis, and Hunter would probably be who I started awhile, ha.

Then you got Devonte, Selden off the bench and Bragg and Traylor as main subs. You could put Ellis at three sometimes and have Hunter and Bragg out there together sometimes. That would be at least more fun to watch than missing bunnies all day.

@betterfireE You make a great point that I had neglected - player development, or lack thereof. I'm struggling to think of a player over the past few years who has markedly improved his skill set during his career. Perhaps Releford? Selden is almost exactly the same player he was coming in - ball handling skills appear to have not improved one iota - and his production has flat lined. Perry's outside shooting has improved, and he does appear to be a bit quicker this year, but his overall low post game hasn't changed much. He has never really learned or won't ball fake, use an up and under, use the rim for protection - all reasons he struggles and will continue to struggle against L&A bigs. Based on their rankings and reps coming in, as well as early production, one might reasonably have expected them to dominate by this time - be consistent 20 and 15 ppg guys. Perry is still very good and Wayne is solid (most of the time), but as one poster put it in another thread, would either be starting for UK right now? Are they even the best in the B12? Perry will likely make first team all B12; Wayne?