🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I must admit I'm a bit of a Toll. As I've traveled and visited many other schools talking websites. Not so much to talk trash or even stir the pot. Yet just to read and comprehend the points and views of other schools. For instance you'll find a small but growing faction of UK fans that are getting tired of the OAD circus, that Duke fans feel that Coach K getting into the OAD business is a good thing, and Tarheel fans still don't believe their school cheated when it comes to course work.

I do this for many reasons nothing bigger than getting a read on basketball and where it stands. Yet in all this time trolling I've come to the conclusion that KU fans are far and away the best and most knowledgeable fans their are. KU fans I've have found understand the game better than most coaches.

So I want to pick the minds of KU fans on kubuckets.

If KU were to lose the conference championship but at the very least make the Final 4 with no guarantee of a National championship?

Would you be happy, or do you want the conference championship?

I know why not both but what if it was one or the other?

(Just for the record if Coach keeps doing what he's doing I feel both will happen).

@DoubleDD Good post. I would love to have the links for the other sites that you visited. Specifically UK, Duke, UNC. Id be grateful if you could post those for me ;)

Basketball culture amongst KU fans is very deeply ingrained into our subculture of society. We truly do bleed crimson and blue.

On to your question...As much as I think the conference streak is important for the legacy of CS, I think he needs to swing for the fences this season. I mean, the conference streak is at legendary status right now. Its at the level of Coach Wooden's own streak way back. Some could argue its even harder to maintain today. But, KU needs to be in the Final Four this season more than it needs to continue its reign of dominance over the conference. CS really needs to take this team and make a big run in the post season. We might not be able to do that next year depending on who we have returning and who we get coming in.

I also agree with you that if Coach keeps doing what he is doing, winning the conference and making a big run in the NCAAs will likely go hand in hand.

I would take the final four. No question. I would not necessarily trade multiple, past conference championships as a lot of people apparently would. Bur we need another final four or two and at some point another NC to go with all of those conferences championships.

The two represent very different achievements.

A conference championship represents consistent success throughout an entire 18 game conference season playing against teams and coaches who know your team and your tendencies inside and out........but despite that they still can't figure out how to dethrone you. It is a marathon. Multiply that by 11 straight marathon wins and that is special.

The NCAA tournament is a crapshoot. And a sprint. . It is about a very good team combining great effort, short run consistency, likely a a couple of hot shooting nites, lots of momentum and some luck into a 6-0 run. But the NCAA tournament is also the measuring stick that all will gauge your team by in perpetuity even though the best team doesn't usually win that tournament. on any given day one team can beat another. The tournament also has a way of pitting great teams against match-ups that may be an Achilles heal for them (and that other top teams may be better suited to handle). Plus when any higher seeded team gets knocked off (especially in an early round) it changes the dynamics of the bracket for the rest of the tournament.....thus creating an equalizer of sorts.

To answer your question, the final four would be my choice over the two.

But I will also say that an eleven year (and running) string of conference titles (especially in a power 5 conference) is a beyond extraordinary achievement.......and one I think much of our fans base has begun to take for granted.

I will also say - despite my preference for a final four over a continuation of our conference title streak - is that the best time to stop being excited about a conference streak like ours is the day that it ends.

Bill Self once stated in an interview that conference titles were important to him. I forget his exact wording, but something to the effect that not every team he puts on the floor will be good enough to win the national championship.......but that he feels he can turn every team he coaches into a conference champion and be able to send those guys out as winners. I can't recall when he said it, it may have been before our title in 08.......

It would be interesting to me to hear how Bill Self would answer your question today.

Softball has done a good job in highlighting the differences between the two. I do not take Big 12 Championships for granted and I admire what Self has achieved in his tenure here, its remarkable. At the same time I also feel KU & Self have benefited from playing at AFH, best home field advantage in CBB. I believe that without the home crowd as X factor it would have been difficult for KU to win some of the championships. Again I am not taking anything away from Self just pointing out my opinion.

For me success in March has more value than the regular conference championship and I will be OK if we do not win the Big 12 but advance to the FF, expectations this year are higher though.

With this current team I'd take the final 4 over the conference championship. This is a veteran squad with some very talented young guys that are usually the perfect recipe for a championship team. The tourney is feast or famine, but this team is feast or famine as well. In 5 games we've already seen the highs and lows.

Losing the conference race would be disappointing, hard to imagine after all the years of winning but this round robin slate hasn't made it easier winning. OU & Iowa St have started to recruit and develop great players that have given us fits or run styles offense that we always have problems guarding.

This years Big 12 slate is going to be as tough as ever. It's possible the league is even harder because there are a lot of veteran players. At what point does a veteran squad just have that hunger to de-throne KU and actually does it. I can't answer that question but its possible that OU or Iowa St gets over that hump they have been trying to get over for a while.

I think KU needs a deep run for momentum on all fronts, it has just felt like more of a struggle every time we lose early to stay at that elite line. We have the team to reasonably expect a Final 4 appearance at the least. It sure would put all those gremlins to sleep that have been creeping up with recent failures.

At this point in time, I'd take the Conference Championship. Ten years from now, nobody (and I mean NOBODY) will remember who the 2015-2016 Final Four teams were, but EVERYBODY will remember that KU won (at least) 12 consecutive Conference Championships.

Final fours and championships. I never cried in 88 when KU meekly bowed out in the conference tourney after being an after ran in the league race. But I'd still feel pain if they'd lost to OK 3 weeks later.

I'm guessing here but I'd venture that non of the kids in this years team. Be it Ellis Traylor, Masan or any of them want to be on that team that broke the streak.

There is no reason you can't have both.

If KU makes the FF what guarantee is there they get a win? Look at undefeated Kentucky last year.

Where would KU finish in the conference? Second a game back? That would sting.

Winning your regular season title gives you a good record. A good record gives you a better seed in the Dance. A better seed gives you a better road to the Final 4.

Again what player wants to be on that team especially the juniors and seniors who let the streak stop??

Ugh. I'll never understand this question. You'd take a FF with a shot at the national title with any team. It doesn't matter who it is. That's why we play! This is Kansas! We play to win it all. I'll never understand how this isn't a no-brainer.

Perhaps the better question is, would you trade the whole streak for, let's say, 2 more national titles? Sure there are some conference titles sprinkled in there, but certainly not 11 in a row. The answer should be unequivocally 'yes.' That makes KU a dynasty. that means 3 national titles in 10 years. THAT is success. THAT is so much more befitting our role in basketball history. Disenthrall yourself with the title streak. They're all well and good, but if you want to talk about Self's legacy, going 15-1 in-conference all so you can get run out of they gym by Northern Iowa as the number 1 overall seed is not flattering. Come on, guys.

@MoonwalkMafia You said "Ugh. I'll never understand the question."

Man, I hear you there. You would think that your logic is unassailable.

I firmly believe that it's one of two things related to National Titles and some folks minimization of the same (not Final Fours): 1) It's just a different approach to life for some, which is fine. A very rational contentment. Being the best is not that important to some people. They can be content being really good or just loving their team. They are generally objective, but just have different priorities when it comes to sports. Or, 2) For others it's a rationalization to make themselves more content and to make them feel better about what they love, which is Kansas basketball. It's the same things we hear from Champions Drive in Columbia, Mo. No one can talk even the least bit skeptically about what you love. Otherwise, it's time to get defensive. No objectivity. Gotta love the loyalty, of course.

The FF gives you that chance to get to the ultimate -- a national title. Sign me up right now. A four team, winner take all.

Another reason to take the FF is that we already have 11 in row (conference titles). Because of our program being consistently excellent, we have lots of that.

Okay... someone has to do the dirty work here and take the other side...

No one wants another National Championship more than me. It is personal for me on many levels. I have family and friends at Duke, UNC, Wisconsin... and several other big schools. I'm sick of being poked at for early losses in March. I could have said "upset losses" but something fans need to understand... THERE ARE NO UPSETS IN MARCH!

Yes... you heard me. THERE ARE NO UPSETS IN MARCH!

Of course, certain teams have more talent and experience.... more size.. more depth... and they match up better with all their opponents. Throw it all out the window. THERE ARE NO UPSETS IN MARCH!

What matters in March is energy... attitude... effort.... momentum... catching a few breaks, or being able to endure a spot of bad luck or a run from another team. It never hurts to get hot, especially from trey! Any group of guys can possess these attributes in March. They all have their own motivations for being there in the first place.

As bad as I want another National trophy back in Lawrence, I'm holding on tight to our conference streak. It isn't something that comes around every year like a chance at a NC does. This is rare... and I am doubtful most fans understand how this streak has helped lift Kansas basketball to new heights. I believe, more than a NC does.

Our conference continues to build better teams to challenge us. We can use every edge we can get, and one of those is our ability to recruit players that will be coming into our conference, either with us or with one of our opposing conference teams. It doesn't hurt to let all recruits know that if they want to win the conference, there is only one choice!

Further... I just can not stomach seeing a team like ISU, or UT (with their new, over-rated coach) winning our conference! Lon and OU are the only other team I would accept defeat from without puking all over the ceiling.

This question doesn't frame up right. It is like telling a parent to choose which of their kids they want to be successful and which one to fail.

It has taken 11 consecutive B12 titles just to get the media to start picking us every year to win it. They finally got sick of looking like dumb jack arses for hating on Kansas.

@drgnslayr So - do you think there are any upsets in March?

Very good post Double DD- - -Very tough question to answer- - well for me anyways with my pea brain, makes me hurt to try to decide lol, ummmm like you said would be great to be able for both, but if I had to choose just the one, I think I would now be inclined or say time for another National Championship. Now just me, and might be only me but, here is my little thought as to why at this time the National Championship. I think it would be MORE profitable for us, gain more National exposure then we already have, Always helps on the recruiting front & just solidifies us even more as one of the few true National blue bloods of college basketball, the upper crust, the upper echelon , but that's just my thinking. Continuing to win the conference would be sweet, but between the 2, the NC is the time now for me a lot easier or it seems to me to win the conference championship then the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, with the make up, the components of the team we have this year, could be our very best shot at getting that National Championship, they just don't fall off trees you know. But dam lets get both lmao. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Or perhaps it is a realistic understanding and acceptance that the best team doesn't usually win the NCAA tournament.

Yes, it should be what we expect and fight every year, but the fact that we won't/don't win it every year doesn't mean we failed or that our season was not great.

Reduce the number of entries to 16 teams and play a best of five series with home and away games in all 4 rounds and then the best team will have a great shot of winning it every year.

But that would kill the universal appeal of the tournament, because the most mid-majors and below would never get entry in to the event.......let alone the opportuntiy to win a game or two and feel like Cinderella for a weekend or two.

@nuleafjhawk

Definitely NO!

Blindfold a team and if they win, I will change to YES!

All the teams are full of athletes... some better, some worse. But I'd rather have a less-talented team that had all the right mental/spiritual things going for them, then a team full of uber talents that don't care enough to prepare themselves for the game. I think we have been that second description far too many times in March.

@DoubleDD

A fun question with a complex answer.

Few recall even frequent final four finishes other than first place, but they FF appearances probably help recruiting and prestige nationally more than titles.

Few recall a single conference title, but they are very important to getting a high seed enabling one to go deep, and win the tourney. A very high percentage of Ring winners also won their conference titles.

It means a greater level of accomplishment to go deep in the tournament than to only win a conference title, or finish second, because the tournament is the ultimate objective. But in reality, the grind of winning a conference may be a greater athletic challenge. Put another way the conference title may prove the greater test of long term consistency, where as the tournament may be the greater test of peak performance.

But as you accrue consecutive conference titles to a record number, consecutive conference tiles becomes vastly more memorable as a record over time than winning even a single ring. Many teams have won several rings. Only one team--UCLA-has won over a decade of titles and a decade of rings.

To break either of UCLA's records would worth doing.

But to add to KU's total of rings is most important in my mind, so it can one day surpass all the schools now ahead of it; that is the ultimate goal--not consecutive rings but total rings.

So I would not trade interrupting our title run for going deep. But I would interrupt it for a ring.

But I can envision no circumstance where intentionally playing not to win a title would offset the cost of not getting the high seed, so I view this as an interesting metaphysical inquiry into the structure and values of our game, but not a real world choice to be faced. KU needs to win conference to get the best seed to have the best chance at winning.

Now, I could justify treating the conference tourney as exhibition games once the conference were won.

The conference championship streak is quite impressive, yet using the poker to move some coals around in the fire.

Doesn't winning the conference title a 11 years in a row kind of lose it's luster. I mean how many times have we heard the argument that KU has won that many conference champions because they play in the Big 12 conference. That the Big 12 conference is a weak conference because it does nothing in the tournament.

I guess what I'm asking is, "The longer the streak goes does the streak it's self take away some of the luster of the great accomplishment"? or is it an achievement that won't truly be appreciated until the streak is over and some time has passed?

Some reading on Coach and the conference streak

One for the ages ↗

@MoonwalkMafia I understand your point and I agree to an extent. But think about the coaches in the 5 power conferences during the past 40 years. Which ones have won their conference 11 times in a row? The Major conferences, Big 12, Big 10, ACC, Big East, SEC, Pac 12. There are only 2 coaches in that list. Coach Wooden and Coach Self. That is legendary. No other high elite level coach in the history of the game has done what Wooden and Self have done. Is that not admirable? Is that not legendary?

reminder to look at my response above. I did say that CS needs to swing for the fences this season and get this team back into the FF regardless of the conference title streak. But with this team the way it is, having soooo many similarities to the '08 team, they will do both. But, they may have to share it with OU or ISU this season. Neither will just let us have it.

@jaybate-1.0 Ahhhh leave it to Jaybate to put an existential spin on winning the conference vs a national title.

@DoubleDD

I guess what I'm asking is, "The longer the streak goes does the streak it's self take away some of the luster of the great accomplishment"?

Hell to the No! As I mentioned earlier, only John Wooden has done what Bill Self is doing and that was nearly 40 years ago. It'll be another 40 years before we see anyone even come close to matching with KU on that front.

@Lulufulu I get what you're saying, but come on. You know John Wooden because of his national championships. Not the conference streak. Again, do you know how many conference championships Coach K has? I don't. No clue. But I know how many titles he has during his tenure. That's what I want for Self and KU too.

@drgnslayr You know, your statement about the media getting tired of picking against KS in the BigXII conf race...it made me wonder: Why? Why are they so reluctant to pick KS? Whatever "media bias" there is in favor of east coast markets/ACC, should still apply to other BigXII teams like OU, TX, IowaSt, OklaSt...

Or, and I say this with total sarcasm: KU is simply the "token" blueblood, so its always a ready-made David vs Goliath story line for the east coast talking heads to do minimal prep for their BigXII commentary?

Honestly, because of this east-coast/big-TV-mrkt bias, KU + Bill Self need to get to the Final4 as often as possible! But why do a Conf. Championship and a Final 4 have to be exclusive? --attaining one is a fair but not perfect yardstick of what kind of team you have, right?

@ralster

I think part of it is their bias.

I think another part is just their attention-getting formula to inspire people to watch (and listen) to them. They have taken a page out of "tv news" where it isn't about reporting news in an unbiased manner... they would rather call it "news" but turning it into bs commentary full of bias. They approach their program much like a web forum and they are the trolls... just trying to get a reaction out of people.

It is hard for people to click to another channel when controversial statements are being made... for or against their own opinions.

The almighty dollar rules their souls.

A little off topic here........but here are some other lesser known streaks we are a part of.

Kansas holds the current NCAA record for......

Consecutive 30 win seasons - 4 - 2010-2013

Consecutive 25 win seasons - 10 - tied with UCLA 67-76; UNLV 83-92; KU 2006-current......we should break this record this year.

Current Consecutive 20 Win Seasons - 26 - 1990-Current (Longest consecutive 20 win season Streak is held by North Carolina at 31 seasons, but it ended in 2001.)

We have to be careful when comparing these streaks to historical references because we play more games than they did 10, 15, 20 + years ago.

But in regard to consistency and relative to our peers during the past 26 years........we are the top dog.

Overall, we need to go TAKE IT from OU and ISU. And, hey, let's not suffer that interminable embarrassment by letting KSuckers beat us. You cannot allow the KU brand get tainted on natl TV like those purple fools did with their octagon-orgy of pushing/shoving/assaulting/"I hope you die, Bill Self" crap they spewed. (I was embarrassed to be a Kansan at that moment...)

But then, there must be a new mindset about the post season. For the kids the urgency is almost oxymoronic to have to spell it out: your final games. Of the season, possibly of your KU career.
So: win the BigXII, win the BigXII Conf.Tournament (which being a 1-loss-u-done tourney, is a great dress rehearsal for the Big68..). Then get to the Final 4.

A true Final Four team MUST find a way to win. We found a way vs Davidson and Memphis in 08. And Bill Self's greatest ever team had to do that twice in 6 game Madness! I now duly reference the 2012 Tyshawn/TRob Hawks, as they found a way to get past 5 of 6 Madness teams. All with no real bench. Call it luck, or call it absolute heart, scrapping, fighting, refusing to say die, along with bigtime ptp'ers showing up to play with their A game.

Do we have a team of crunch-time "gamers"? That is what will serve Jayhawk Nation's interests. Also, keep a close tab on our defensive rankings.. We sucked the last 2 years (relative to other Self rosters), and we bowed out ungracefully in the 2nd round x 2.

Finally, don't forget a KU team "getting away from its core principles" (turnovers, D, rebounds)...as we even saw an overall 1-seed KU team (MorrisHawks) fall to VCU by several key failings in that 1 game, starkly uncharacteristic. Bill Self preaches all those little details for a reason: you forget them even 1 time, you can get beat by anybody. Or a nobody. Make em feel then like they're a 'somebody'...Avoid the ignominy. The devil is in the details of execution.

RCJH

@ralster

First thing these boys need to learn -

"THERE ARE NO UPSETS IN MARCH!"

If they don't believe it... they are already beat. They won't prepare for St. Mary's Church of Castrated Clergy and lose by 15 and, once again, embarrass the Jayhawk Nation in March.

Now, my above post, I just realized is solely from a nuts & bolts, pure basketball performance standpoint. A KU standpoint.

What I almost hate to contemplate, is the whole 3rd party, "money" perspective. I am still haunted by Self's Illini recruits going toe-to-toe with Roy's (Daugherty's) UNC kids in the 2005 Champ game and absolutely getting ref-whistled right out of a NC...It was clear. It was obvious. There have been other games where you wonder if the "fix" was on. Dare I mention Coach K's almost god-like ability to get key calls and key no-calls late in a game? How about that Duke game where their 3 shooter travelled twice? 2 bad calls on KU on offensive end. All within the last 3 min. Hey, the stuff of Krzyzewski's Legend is made of this. Because it serves the big money markets. Not to mention the myriad of influential business types back east that are ACC people and Dookies also.

Shoe company stuff? Who knows if Louisville was the token adidas NC...uh, every "few" years? Duke is Nike. Wisconsin is Adidas. Let Wiscy "beat" KY, 'cuz we got DukeNike waiting in the wings...'.

For NCAA's golden event imagine the upset sponsors if it is 2 small market (Midwest, Mountain, etc) teams playing in the NC game. So the "System" is to feed recruits, instruct refs, etc... to produce a "suitable" contender from the East Coast almost every year. Louisville is acceptable, as they are sort of back east. Everybody over 2 generations knows who Rick Pitino is. People will watch. We should get enough market audience for all the tens of millions spent on advertising...

If this all sounds very sarcastic, it is. Unfortunately, one can play this little behind-the-scenes-what's-the-real-driver (where's the $ trail) with almost anything. My brother has been especially spicy in his sarcasm regarding world events of the last few years (in the Mideast). An absolute downer to think this way, at least to my usual way of thinking...

@ralster and don't forget the f u KU chant!😡

Interesting question but we have to look at the two event in context.

First, if KU does not win the conference, chances are it does not make it to the Final Four. As coach Self has said before, winning the conference gives you a better shot in the tournament starting with a better, more favorable seed and hopefully a better match-up, although I have to admit the Basketball Gods, i.e. Selection Committee has not done KU any favors lately; giving WSU such a low seed last tournament and forcing KU to play a heavily under-seeded team with a huge chip on its shoulder is a good example.

As far as Conference titles...if this would be KU's 3rd or 4th or 7th Conference Title...I would say take the Final Four; however, KU is about to make sports history and every analyst I have heard on the subject has indicated this would be one of the biggest accomplishments in all sports....so I would say that in context, the conference tittle would have a bigger and much more lasting effect than a Final Four appearance.

@DoubleDD m

People wonder this about most streaks. It must be happening for some reason other than human mastery of a process. But Wooden was quite confident that he and his staff had "learned how" to win championships regularly. Other coaches have had similar levels of talent runs, like Dean Smith, but only Wooden and his staff figured out how to do it. Same with Self's conference title run.

@DoubleDD personally, I agree with you, all it shows is that we won the conference - - -AGAIN. so we continue to win this conference, then our conference goes in to the NCAA tourney loaded with teams 6- - 7 and fall flat on our face, what does that say about the strength of the conference?- - then we keep getting put out in the early rounds of the tourney, so this is tel the rest of the country, they can win in a weak conference that becomes the perception but win they come up against proven competition , the proof is in the pudding, the conference fails to show itself in the tourney, Ku has early exits lately soooo what is that sayin to the country? ya, they win 11 straight conference championships in a overrated conference. The luster has been takin off, until the conference shows better in the tourney, and we still win the conference, THIS is the year for our run at the NC so you better back it up and go for it

@Lulufulu Ok so let me ask which means more to you another year of conference championship- - -or the National Title, which means more to an incoming recruit? A team that wins National Championships? or conference titles, so you would rather kiss your sister then Miss America? that's how they compare to one another

@MoonwalkMafia Agreed `100%

@MoonwalkMafia Ask those Duke fans, - - -Kentucky fans which they want worse, or which means more- - pretty simple

I agree with those saying the 5th or 7th conference title starts to be a ho-hum type affair, regardless the thanks we should show to the boys and coach for winning it. It is a feather in the cap...

But about to do 12th straight? Now Self is truly adding something significant to the KU Legend--NOW it is starting to be truly something special on its own. Not competing with a NC, but on its own merits. The fact that essentially 5 different KU rosters have done this under Self is a testament to him and his system for getting kids to listen and execute. It proves he has the details right.

And of course adding a NC to the KU Legend is a standalone Legacy-level feat anytime it happens.

And for those who want more from Self regarding March Madness...maybe he is purposely recruiting ball-handling guards with a chip on their shoulder. That delicate balance between a kid with enough skill to play, one that is teachable, but one who always carries a chip on his shoulder due to his "non-McDAA" status. Tyshawn and that Rodriguez guard from VCU may have incidentally made Self think back to his own non-elite-ranked guards of his earlier coaching days...for now we see Frank and Devonte...both non-McDAA's but, both fully capable of playing excellent bball. (see A:T ratio on each, they are currently exceeding RussRob+Chalmers' ratio). Baker and VanVleet are other examples of such types of under-radar guards.

But I think Self would say regardless of who your individual players are, the main question is of consistency and efficiency. If you can build a team, and nurture it to give you those 2 qualities by late Feb...you are in business for a deep March run.

I am reminded by @jayballer54 's post that Coach K and Duke didn't make the Final 4 for approx. a 9-10 year stretch...

Duke had a couple of 1st round and some 2nd round exits. I wonder how much angst their fanbase displayed on those occasions? I wonder what their fan websites were like?

@jayballer54

...but the question was not winning the NCAA but making it to the Final Four with no guarantees...which may be like kissing ESPN Woman of the Year only to find out that she was really Bruce Jenner... :d

@ralster

"I agree with those saying the 5th or 7th conference title starts to be a ho-hum type affair, regardless the thanks we should show to the boys and coach for winning it. It is a feather in the cap…"

It may become ho-hum for some people... but even the media, as we added every year, has given more attention to it because it represents a moment to gibgab more hype.

I've enjoyed hearing media talk it up. It deserves the attention.

@HighEliteMajor You can't answer the question? You often say the National Championship is the only thing that matters? So if it is the only thing that matters, shouldn't that be your answer to the question? And yes, I read your reply to the question.

@DoubleDD My answer is I cheer for KU to win every single game. So of course I would take the Conference Title. The Conference Championship shows sustained excellence during the regular season. As I have mentioned many times over, the NCAA Tournament is flawed. Teams that have not done "Jack Diddly Squat" over the course of an entire season can get in. I am not impressed. What I can appreciate is a team that goes out and consistently wins 25-30+ games year in and year out, again, sustained excellence. That what makes Kansas a top tier basketball program to me. I would love to win the NCAA Tournament every year, but at the same time I wish it were a true tournament of Champions. When teams with a record of 12-17 get into the tournament, something is wrong with the system. So, yes sign me up for the Conference Championship. That's the way it is for me. I will take my chance in the NCAA Tournament, because in the end, that's all it is.

@KansasComet I like you post...nice summary! I will take BOTH a BigXII Crown and a NC. Why not?

@ralster Thanks. That's the only way I can truthfully answer that question. I would not be happy suffering through a season of not being the best team in a Power 5 Conference. I appreciate Kansas efforts through the regular season. Anyone that has watch the tournament since 1985 when it switched to its current format knows that it is a crapshoot and not a best of the best tournament. I wish the tournament only had 32 teams, that way it would truly be a best of the best tournament and winning the regular season would count for something and not be so easily marginalized.

Ok I'm going to throw another log on the fire. ;)

A couple points or to be exact two points.

One Gonzaga has won several conference championships in a row yet no body noticed? UCLA has won several conference championships in a row and nobody noticed? Well to be fair UCLA did win several National championships in a row in that same time period. Hell I wasn't aware of UCLA dominance in the conference game until KU went on their own run. The truth be told Nobody remembers UCLA dominance of the Pac 10, yet they remember their dominance on the national stage. Not so sure Conference championships mean that much?

So many say the big tournament is a crap shoot? OK then let me ask this question? Then why has it been that a blue blood has always made the final 4 except one year. (somebody might want to check that one). The Tournament isn't luck, it's about playing your game. Coach's recent failures in the tournament aren't because of bad luck or matchups. It's because he didn't play to his teams strengths. How many times has KU lost to the three ball in the tournament. Yet coach on the record has said the 3 is fools gold.

The tournament isn't a crap shoot like must of us think. It's about playing to your strength. Think about it? How many final 4's and championship games has KU played in? Think that was all luck?

No it wasn't.

@DoubleDD Good point. Now some point to the 2008 team as having several "lucky" breaks, but there are teams every year that do not necessarily require numerous highly fortuitous circumstances to win. Like you said, it is all about playing your own game.

@MoonwalkMafia Do you know what the requirement was just to get into the NCAA Tournament was back during the Wooden Years?

@KansasComet You know, that might be one of the reasons that Coach Self emphasizes conference so much - back in the day, they didn't have post season conference tournaments. There were much fewer slots to the tournament, and if you didn't win your conference, there was a chance you wouldn't be invited.

This is not directed at you, but I can't get my head around equating conference titles to not winning national titles. What does one have to do with the other? So, if we win conference, and lose in the NCAA, suddenly winning conference is bad? Let's say we lost conference...would that increase our chances in the tourney? If given the choice, wouldn't you rather win both? Why all the caterwauling on the boards right after we beat a top 15 team with huge freaking size ( the kind of team that would've beat us last year) ? Are we at KU becoming the basketball version of LSU, which nearly fired a national championship coach with a 78% win percentage????

@DoubleDD I said the NCAA Tournament is a crapshoot, and here is why: 68 Teams to decide the best team in College Basketball? What a joke. Take a look at NCAA Football. I know they play games once a week and most schools play at least 12 games. I get all of that, but the games that decide Championships are best of the best games. Agreed? You must win at least 6 games to become "Bowl Eligible" which is the reward for having a decent season. To contend for a National Championship, you must win and the emphasis is on winning each week. 1 loss, usually means you are still okay, 2 losses and your season could be in jeopardy, and 3 losses, you can pretty much forget about it. That's the format and it pretty much is a best of the best tournament.

With NCAA Basketball it does not matter what a team does in the regular season at all to get in. An example, teams that won only 12 games and have 17 losses still get in a tournament to decide a National Championship. Where did this mess come from? It has to be about the money? It cannot be about deciding what team is the best. It discredits teams that have worked very hard to have excellent Regular Seasons.

Speaking from the heart, the real culprit is the end of season Conference Tournaments. How does every team get invited to a Conference Tournament. If every team is invited, then they should have it at the midpoint of the Regular Season.

Just like in school, if you get F's on your Report Card, then you should not expect to be placed on the Honor Roll.

In the John Wooden Era, only the Regular Season Champion got in the tournament. The 1970-1971 USC Trojans went 24-2 with their only 2 losses coming to UCLA and they were not invited to the NCAA Tournament. There were no "At Large Bids" back then.

So, lets flip the script. How successful would Bill Self's Kansas Teams have been in John Wooden's format, and how successful would John Wooden's UCLA Teams have been in the current format?

I am not for all of the "Cinderella" stories. Cinderella is a fairytale. I would like to see a best of the best tournament that rewards excellence in the Regular Season. A team that suddenly gets it at the end of the season, and goes on an incredible run should do so in the NIT. Cinderella does not belong in the NCAA Tournament, Regular Season Champions do. Just my opinion. I am not in any way trying to convince anyone that my way is the only way of thinking when it comes to this topic. We are all entitled to our opinions, I am expressing mine and I respect and appreciate everyones opinion on the subject even though we may disagree. Hopefully, we all agree that we love it when KU wins!!!

@jayballer54 In real life, more Kentucky fans kiss their sister.

I just wish we'd lose the conference championship and then win it all so we could stop having this conversation every year!

@KansasComet

"I am not for all of the “Cinderella” stories. Cinderella is a fairytale. I would like to see a best of the best tournament that rewards excellence in the Regular Season. A team that suddenly gets it at the end of the season, and goes on an incredible run should do so in the NIT."

Then there's no 1988 championship, because they may have been the biggest cinderella in the history of the tourney.

@wissoxfan83 I always looked at 1988 as Karma for 1986. If Kansas were a double digit seed, I might consider them a cinderella. Fact is they were a 6 seed and played an incredible schedule. A 6 seed would mean they were considered in the top 24 since there are 4 brackets. Nothing cinderella about that. I know it makes for a great story created by the media. Fact is they took on all comers. They played a Kansas State team that made the Elite 8 four times during the season, they played Oklahoma 3 times, and Duke twice. Danny, Milt, and Kevin were excellent basketball players. In my opinion the 1988 team was not a cinderella team that came from out of nowhere. My main issue is with teams with losing records being allowed into the tournament.

@wrwlumpy said:

@jayballer54 In real life, more Kentucky fans kiss their sister.

PHOF! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

@KUSTEVE Yep, I want it all. I said earlier that I think Bill should swing for the fences this year, still mean it too. But I want both. I really do. Can't argue with the fact that a conference champion gets an automatic 1 or 2 seed and thus a supposed easier path to the FF.

You are also right about Vandy. They would have beat us last season, the one before that too. I hope we arent getting close to asking for Coach's ouster for whatever happens. Not like it would happen anyways. His seat is pretty much heat proof. I mean, he would have to really Eff things up in a Calipari vacate season and wins type of way for him to get booted from KU.

Last ten NC and how they did in reg season conference play.

Duke 2014-15 did not win it.

UConn 2013-14 did not win it.

Louisville 2012-13 did in a three way tie.

Kentucky 2011-12 did with ease.

UConn 2010-11 didn't win it. Finished 9th.

Duke 2009-10 shared with Maryland.

North Carolina 2008-09 did.

Kansas 2007-08 shared with Texas.

Florida 2006-07 did win it.

Florida 2005-06 did not win the east division.

In the last 10 years 6 of the NCs did win it. Three of those six shared it with at least one other team.

I'd toss this in, tell me the seasons Roy won the conference title? Now tell me the seasons he got to the final four?

I don't think I ever had frustration with Roy over not winning the conference. My memories in that regard are frustration with the gap between 1993 and 2002, and no national titles.

I do like the discussion on conference titles creating a better path to the FF. However, that places the conference titles in their proper place -- a means to an end.

Good topic- and , as has been mentioned earlier in the thread by HEM, it does speak to what it is one gets out of being a fan of KU.
I do think the streak is historic - ESPECIALLY in a very competitive conference. Plus for me it is a goal i look forward to. The season builds up to it, and in our conference the games can be ferocious and nail biting. Winning the conf is definitely a big deal even though we have won it a lot. Then we have the b12 tourney, a mini fun goal, then we enter the big crapshoot. At this point my personal expectations are in direct proportion to how good a team we appear to have. The greater you appear to be, the harder the fall when you lose. Just ask kentucky and their fans last year. When you come in as a modest team, every win in the tourney is a bonus gift and yes, lets us watch another game by our beloved team.

Would i take a few National championships over the streak? Yes.
But im incredibly proud of the streak and our coach and the whole program. I can live with just the streak- easy :)

Now - another question is - how much would your fan-dom be tested if KU became an average also-ran team (like the VAST majority of D1 programs)? How many years of this before your interest would wane?
For those here who thrive on criticism of the program, it would give you plenty of fodder and fuel. For some it would be sad, and may lead to an eventual distancing and lack of caring anymore.

@KUSTEVE Thanks, we are on the same page. I say try to win the Conference first, and then put best foot forward come tournament time. Losing in the tournament does not mean failure. Winning the Conference Title means there were many successful moments.

When we talk about Conference title streaks we have to look at them in context. Let's face it, 40-50 years ago, when UCLA has it golden years, a few teams dominated college basketball and realistically, there were only a handful of teams capable of winning the title and they were head and shoulders above all others. Now, on any given day any of 200 teams can beat top 10 team and yes, it is an upset but not that unusual any more. The parity back then and what we have now is night and day. It is lot more difficult to maintain excellence year after year...remember UK, perhaps the most dominant program on the last few years, losing to Bobby mo in the NIT? Or UConn winning it a couple of years ago after not even being ranked in the top 20 going into the tournament and missing tournaments in between tittles?

Also, when we talk about Gonzaga, were are talking about a weak conference that routinely send at best 2 teams to the tournament where the Big 12 is consistently one of the top ranked conferences and the only one to sent 70% of its team to the dance.

If KU breaks the record for consecutive conference titles in the current environment, it will be considered one of the biggest accomplishments in sports ever...and most sports analysts have said that much.

@KUSTEVE I agree - we probably would have lost to Vanderbilt last year.

@JayHawkFanToo

Great perspective!

@Bosthawk Outstanding post. Thanks.

@Lulufulu InsideCarolina is the UNC site. I used to get on there just to read, but haven't in past 2yrs...

Throwing gasoline on the fire.

Conference championships are fine, and KU's run or dominance over the Big 12 is great. Yet in the same breath KU's dominance over the Big 12 has down graded it as a weak basketball conference.

Have we not heard the arguments? Well if KU was in the Big 10, ACC, SEC, or Pac they wouldn't have won so many conference championships.

Look I'm fine with the streak and the dominance KU and coach has shown in the regular season. Yet what I do have a problem with is everybody given Coach a free pass when it comes to the big tournament and his failures. It's like saying hey coach we'll give you a free pass if you lose in the second round every year just as long as you win the conference championship.

Bottom line ask yourself this 20 years from know will Espn be doing 20/20's on KU's conference success or that UK is making it the final 4 every year? Who will be considered the most dominating program? The program that wins their conference championship every year, or the team that makes it the final 4 every year.

Sorry guys and gals but UK's loss in the NIT is fading very fast. They are giving the benefit of the doubt and ranked in the top five every year before their stud class ever hits the floor. Also I maybe mistaken but it seems to me they are in the final four every year.

Basketball fans aren't going to remember how KU dominated the Big 12. Yet I'm pretty sure they all going to remember how UK dominated college basketball.

Yet here in Jayhawk nation the big tournament is all luck?