🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Just read that Bill Self said, “We’re probably going to mix up our starting lineup for the Holy Cross game (7 p.m. Wednesday, Allen Fieldhouse). I don’t know exactly what direction we’re going to go.”

He also said, “Hunter deserves an opportunity. I’ve got to give him more of an opportunity. I’ve given everybody a chance but Hunter. There’s no question about that.”

Does Hunter start?

Will @HighEliteMajor go completely insane if Lucas gets the nod?

Will @jaybate-1.0 jump off the Bill Self Bandwagon if Diallo starts too early?

Does Self dare messing with the Three Headed Monster in the back court?

Could Perry start at 3?

My bet is it is Diallo in at the 5 and he loses the opening tip!

I think Self is going to start Hunter, throw him out there and see what happens. He's given Jamari and Landon a chance to show what they can do. Now it's Hunters turn.

I'm guessing unless KU goes for 64 in the first half and Humter has a triple double at the break the Mext game Bragg gets a start and then Diallo will get his.

This will give them all a chance to play with fresh starters, play from the get go. Get reps in practice. Give them all their own personal showcase if you will.

This will not only show each guy where they stand but will show their teammates what they can do. It also will show coach Self who he can and can not trust in the starting role.

As for us fans it will just give us more to talk, argue, bicker and over analyze about.

@JRyman Over analyze? Here? Surely not! I'm just ready to watch some more ball!

Whats funny to me is that HCBS put it out there that some of his Bigs had worked their tails off to play. If that's what you want then WHY do you go after ONLY 5 star talent? IF you are going to recruit against guys that actually start their freshmen then you have to start them too OR forget even attempting to recruit them? Go after the 4 star guys that are no where near OAD talent and develop them. He is only hurting the program if he is ONLY going after 5 star guys and then scrambling to put a recruiting class together after he misses on the majority of them. Its got to be one way or the other! Look at the guys he is recruiting there mostly 5 stars and the 5 star guys are not going to come to KU if he continues to give minutes to less talented guys that have put in the work. I completely understand where he is coming from BUT QUIT recruiting guys that want to play immediately if you are not going to play them. FOCUS on guys that are willing to put in time that you can develop that have a high ceiling and are ranked close to the top 50. Its not rocket science!

sounded to me that Lucas would get the start and Hunter if the game goes accordingly would get some extended minutes

@Statmachine usually agree with a lot you post but to say that 5 star guys want to play right away and to recruit 4 star guys.

Well I imagine they want to start right away too. 4 star, 3 star and even the two star recruit wants start right away.

That is indeed the reason they all play the game.

@JRyman If you want to see real arguing, and bickering, go read the comments on the Keegan article over at the other site! Actually read the column Keegs wrote about Self and his bigs dilemma.

@JRyman Yes just think HCBS needs to cast a wider net and take what he can get. Image and perception of HCBS and how he manages minutes were a speculation last year with Cliff and has already started with Cheick. At some point these kids are just going to pass all together on KU due to HCBS's inability to sever the umbilical chord with his seniors. These guys have sat on the bench for 3 years what is one more going to hurt? You don't see him playing Evan Manning even though he is a senior? How many starts will Tyler Self get this year? Have they not worked their butts off? These guys are not even in the discussion on next years NBA draft BUT Cheick is and the more HCBS limits Cheick the more it effects his pay check next year. People around the recruiting scene are telling these kids this and they listen. It wont be much longer and HCBS will not be able to land 5 star talent. Just sayn

@Statmachine He hasn't had this many upper classmen in a few years.

Cliff was already setting his sights on his pro career and was never fully buying into Selfs scheme.

I think of Diallo and Bragg work hard and buy in they will get their minutes.

As for Diallos pay check if Self is worried about that then well damn that isn't good for KUs future at all.

As for lil Manning and Self playing I never brought up walk ons.

@JRyman I know you didn't bring up walk on's. HCBS used hard work to justify PT for his upperclassmen he is distributing minutes to instead of Cheick. The walk on's have put in hard work too.

@Statmachine let's be honest in a few directions. One non of the walk ins that work hard and are upper classmen play the 4 or 5 spot. So that's a voided argument.

Number 2 there is a talent drop off between Diallo/Bragg over Traylor/Lucas/Mickelson. And a Grand Canyon in difference of talent between Diallo/Bragg vs Manning/Self again making that comparison void.

Everyone who plays college ball works hard. Is that what you want me to say? From the number 1 recruit in the land to the last walk on to make it at the lowest ranked school.

They all want to play. They all work hard.

Some are talented. Some are super talented. That hard work that some put in might be physical and or mental. Some guys get it and others think just cause they run faster jump higher they should be enabled to play.

If Self wants to see hard work and you want to play well that's on said player to work hard. Senior. Freshman. The number 90th ranked player or the #5 ranked player. If you want in his stem you better beat the guy out in front of you each and every day. Both physically and mentally. Learn the system. Run the system as you are coached and play Team ball not individually. If you want to be an individual play tennis.

People may think this is a joke but I would like to see B. Greene get a start when he gets back from his suspension in 2 games. Maybe not game 1 but shortly after. I think this may bring him back into the fold and could be a sort of olive branch. I really feel Greene will be key if we are going to make the run we all want to. Hey, at least he can hit FT's.

@benshawks08

If I were Self I would not change a thing about Composite 5. Composite 5 was out only rock inside. I am an if it ain't broke, don't fix it type. I would however have had senior Traylor running Allen Field House steps for the three turn overs. But at the same time, Traylor looked completely injured and, given last seasons experience with players playing injured, I would have to guess the Jam Tray may already be operable.

If The Tray were not operable, then I would stand pat on starter and sequence of substitution, and just give The Tray a butt chewing about the turn overs.

But Self is not a stand pat guy, as much as he is a match-up guy. I haven't looked at The Church of the Holy Cross' big men, or style of play. So: if you tell me they start a skinny guy 6-6 to 6-8 at the post, and The Tray were operable, then I might start Lucas, then come quickly with Diallo, then Hunter. And I would try to get most of Bragg's minutes subbing for Perry. But if The Tray were NOT operable, then I'd have to stay with The Tray starting, then come with Diallo, then Hunter, and give Lucas a night off.

But if Holy Cross starts a lug in the paint, then I'd tell Lucas to grab his hard hat and lunch bucket and put in a nights work and come with Diallo, and Hunter and maybe rest whatever ails The Tray.

Other wise, Self has to try to separate on Holy Cross as early as possible and get a look at Vick coming in, after the egg Svi laid against Harvard. Its not Svi's shooting that was the problem, though that was ugly. Guys that go 6 of 7 just do later go 1-6. But Svi didn't rebound. Didn't really disrupt much. Self has to at least see if Mr. Mylar can stay on a spot for a few minutes and guard someone enough to make them uncomfortable.

Elsewhere, I am most definitely talking to Devonte about efficiency. His trey balling will come around whenever it will. But he's got to be more productive when he takes it inside. Its got to be a make, or an assist. I think you give Frank another night off from point guard duty at least to start with, and keep trying to get Devonte oiled up and able. Devonte needs the middle ten minutes of the first half to run the team again to get his confidence back. But if he struggles again, then come with Vick, or Svi and see what happens with Frank running the show with them at his side; that needs practice, too.

Perry is the daddy, so he's got to go back out and turn up the amperage on his own. He's got to push through that feeling of being absolutely alone in leading his family and then getting it done. Better now than later.

I don't think @HighEliteMajor will be the only person on here to go insane if Landon Lucus starts. This move by Bill Self to give Lucas major minutes continues to baffle me too. Because playing Landon only works if we play small teams with no size and slow players.
The Big 12 is not set up for this ideal to make sense in the long run. I mean ISU and Oklahoma and even WVU and the rest of the league, can and will take advantage of Landon.
Kansas needs a player that can hit a jump shot, run down a player and maybe block a shot. A player that you at least have to guard some times.
I don't hate the player but he is not the answer to a successful run.

Just looked at the roster @wrwlumpy was kind enough to post.

They've got a 6-10 lug that goes 24 mpg and Malachi Karl, a 6-7 guy that goes 36 mpg.

When the 6-10 lug is in, we'll probably see Lucas and Hunter.

When the shorter guys are in, Traylor and Diallo.

How much Diallo plays will depend on how much separation there is and how banged up The Tray is.

If we jump off to an early lead, by playing the quick trigger three offense, then I think we will se a lot of Cheick.

If HC guards well and hangs around, then Diallo will have to wait another game.

@BeddieKU23 That would be my speculation also.....Lucas starts and Mickelson gets some PT. Whether we agree with his assessment of Lucas or not (and I can't believe that I'm even talking about us agreeing or not with the assessment of a coach with his winning percentage) .... based on Self's comments on Lucas...there is a very good rationale to expect him to start.

Maybe we are all looking at this wrong? Maybe it's Devonte that gets the bench for one game?

Frank and Wayne at the 1-2. Svi at the three maybe Perry? If Oerry starts at the three then KU get real big with two guys in Hunter and Lucas.

Yeah well I didn't think so either. Just throwing it up against the wall and see what sticks.

I'll bet you a tall frosty one that it's either Traylor or Lucas still. Self has shown that he's incapable of changing. Don't expect anything different.

Bill Self's freshman minute allocation strategy is nothing new. And he is continuing to get a 5 star or two every year. He sometimes turns supposed one and dones (overhyped) into two or three or even 4 and dones but isn't that the best case for KU? Shouldn't we want these 5 stars to hang around for more than one year?

He has always lived on late signings which has a tendency to make some understandably nervous!

I listened to Bill last night and he even admitted Hunter has not got enough court time and it appears most of the board rats agree Hunter will get some more play time. This can only mean one thing.

Hunter gets 7 mins and Lucas gets 25 mins

Somehow Hunter will still get more blocks and points than Lucas.

Post game from Bill: If it wasn't for Lucas we would have never won that game.

Holy Cross is quite a test. They beat the juggernaut Harvard Crimson by a point. We better be very careful how we construct our lineup. Certain guys just aren't ready for crunch time in a contest like this. I sure hope we play a 60-50 game here. If we just go out and make shots, then that will give us a false sense of security on our other phases of the game.

@HighEliteMajor I see your sarcasm but I actually do think they will test us. Not because of their talent, or size, or anything other than their tempo. They play one of the slowest tempos in all of college basketball. With all the talk we've had about the big guys, this game will only be a blow out if the guards can pressure the ball and push them into an up-tempo game. Bill Self will try this early. We will see the press. But if they play flat or tired or too many minutes or not focused or uneven or foul too much, it may very well end up being 60-50!

But you better believe the bigs will make sure no Holy Cross player will dunk without getting put to the floor!

@RockChalkRedlock More likely he would say we don't win the game without Hunter, thereby boosting the guy he maybe should have given more minutes!

Don't get your hopes up about Mickelson getting more playing time. He might get a couple more minutes than fall right back down to where he was.

He said it about Mickelson last year and nothing changed.

Self said the same thing about Frankamp TWICE his freshmen year but nothing changed.

He said it about Andrew White.

Said it about Geeene his Freshman year.

The only common detonator in these situations is Self never honestly changed anything.

Mickelson can go for 20 and 15. But when the games on the line, he will be riding the pine.

I feel bad for Hunter. He deserved a chance to play ball somewhere.

@JhawkAlum or perhaps they under perform at practice after he says these things?

Maybe coach says these things to open the door for them and then they go to practice and underperform or when they do get in the games they forget what they are to do?

I don't know I have never been to a Bill Self coached practice. Have you?

@JRyman Not a fan of passive aggressive communication but I'll reply.

I have not been to a practice. It seems unlikely that all of those players just happened to start underperforming the moment Self said that.

But if that is the basis of how you think, I hope I don't ever see you question who Self plays because you aren't at practice.

Question his strategy against an opponent because you weren't at their film session.

Be critical of Self's in game adjustments because you weren't in there at half time.

Wonder why Self didn't nab a recruit because you didn't accompy him while he was on the recruiting trails.

But it is my assumption (even though I've never been in your house or watched a game with you) that you been critical of Self in one way or another. Also assuming here, but I would also bet it's because you have seen the same thing over and over.

When you see the same thing happen repeatedly with different players, it's fair to say it was Self. Not the player.

@benshawks08 boy me too, I suffered all through the summer months, waiting for this Baseball is soooooo, boring and to think I used to Love baseball, I played baseball, actually worked out at a minor tryout for the Cincinnati Reds in the 70's was a pitcher, and a left handed pitcher at that, and in the 70's lefties were a big deal not as many as today use to love it, but now as I'm older I wonder how I ever managed it, just drags out. BUT anyways I am so ready for games, and it seems probably just me but it seem are games are really spread out, seems like we use to almost play every other night a few years back now not so much. Or maybe its because I'm older and my little peaa brain doesn't remember as well lol, but I'm ready ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@JhawkAlum nothing passive aggressive to what I said. But it's arguable depending on wait side you see it from so I'll stop with it here.

I have stated many times to many other posters the same thing about practice. We aren't there so how are we to know who should be playing in certain situations. Who should be starting against certain teams. What offense we should run.

We can all voice opinions but to pass ten off like a fact or knowledge of the situation is a farse at best.

I don't know if you've played sports or at what level. But there are some guys are gamers, they aren't great prescribe guys but they kill it in games. There's other guys who show up to practice as all Americans but in a game and under the bright lights the faulter.

There are guys that are great teammates on teams and guys who don't mesh well with his fellow players.

A coaches job or his staff is to figure out who is who. In a young season they rely on practice die to not having enough game film to represent each and every player in a position to get playing time.

As a fan, short for fanatic, I do get to yell at my tv, shake my head and ask why. But as someone who has played, coached and worked camps I get it. I get that there are things we don't see or know. Things we don't even have a clue about. Any good coach is t going to show his hand I. A post game interview or on his weekly radio show. It's called gamesmanship.

That could also be a reason coach self isn't playing the young ones is due to hiding them from scouting reports? I don't know. Just an opinion as I have no insider knowledge or contact with coach.

For all those players you listed and to why they'd didn't play?? I don't know I was offering an idea an opinion. Then again it's coach Selfs system maybe they just didn't want to follow it his way? Of they came to KU they knew what they were getting into. If they didn't then wow that's on them for just guessing how it was going to be.

@Statmachine LET me ask you this bud, just asking don't want it to come across the wrong way, as I also understand, BUT do you feel its right because a kid is a 5 star recruit and that kid has had pretty much whatever he wants through out his high school days, do you feel that its right for a 5 star player to expect to come in to a school and just have a starting spot handed to him without working and earning it? I do feel that maybe Self feels to a certain point has a obligation to 3 and 4 year players that have put in the time to develop, he feels that obligation to play them, start them UNTIL the quote unquote 5 STAR actually shows, proves and actually earns that starting spot instead of just handed to them on a platter. It's great to have one and dones, but no matter you have to have and you need to have those 3 and 4 year solid role players also, and they bust their ass, and I personally would if it came down to it, I would just as soon as you mentioned, I would just as soon have the 3-4 year player that are willing to put in the time and work hard to get where they are and is or really cares about the school instead of a bunch of 1 and done to where they aren't even at the school long enough to care about the school, all they are is just a bunch of NBA robots, just curious, do you feel it's fair or for them to believe that they should be handed that starting spot without earning that spot, like any other player on the roster? ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@JRyman If you were actually wondering if I've been to practices, then I apologize. But if it was a rhetoric question under the assumption that I haven't, it was most certainly passive aggressive.

Being frustrated with the lack of in game strategies is doing exactly what you are so against. How do you KNOW there weren't a lot of changes.

As fans, all we have are assumptions. If you haven't seen Lucas shoot the 3, it's a reasonable conclusion to assume he can't shoot the 3 even though you aren't there at practice watching him practice jumpers.

Likewise, if we have seen Self say "He deserves more playing time" and the players PT doesn't change in the long run, why would we expect anything different?

@JhawkAlum look I get it. Everyone is upset that we had a close game with Harvard. I get that people aren't happy about Diallo not playing at the 5 for 30 mins a game.

I get that people want to voice their complaints and angst as the season goes on.

One of the things I was trying to get at was to look at it another way and not just half empty.

Look after the MSU game I raised questions and had opinions. I'm not saying one can't. Just saying look at it in a different way.

You aren't the first nor will you be the last that I've thrown that out there on about being at practice. If I say something that sounds like I've been there then please call me out on it.

Checks and balances.

It's all good to disagree. If not then why is anyone here? Is that passive aggressive? Nope but that was

Anything between *** and *** sarcasm font.

Everybody wants to play. I agree with @JRyman on that.

But the thing is, some guys know they aren't ready for D1 ball yet. Those guys are generally your 1 and 2 star players. At KU, other guys realize they aren't going to start because they flat can't out play some of the other guys in practice every day. That's what happens to 3 star talent at KU. Those guys simply cannot hang with the elite players.

The four star guys is where it starts getting interesting, because some of these guys were underrated at HS players, and could have been 5 stars if they had gone to the right school or been on the right AAU team, etc. But for many 4 star players, particularly at KU, they have a limited number of elite recruiting options. Programs aren't holding spots open for them. Legerald Vick jumped at the KU opportunity, but that opportunity existed only because Malik Newman, Jaylen Brown and others went elsewhere. If the question was Vick or those guys, Vick ends up somewhere else. That's the nature of the 4 star player.

So because of that, 4 star guys may look for PT, but they are also going to go to the best possible program that mixes PT with overall opportunity and experience.

But 5 stars can go anywhere. @Statmachine is right. If I am a 5 star and I see that now, two years in a row, KU has landed top recruits and they are in the bottom 5 among top 25 recruits in minutes, that would give me pause. I'm gonna go to KU and sit behind a guy that, on his career, averages 5 points and 4 rebounds, or 4 points and 4 rebounds? Really?

If we aren't going to play a top 10 recruit, then why recruit a top 10 recruit. There is no argument that can be made that either Lucas or Traylor is as good at basketball as Bragg or Diallo. NONE And yet they sit. Don't recruit over a guy if you aren't going to play over him.

@justanotherfan

I hate to break it to you but every 3 star and above ranked player thinks he is the next Jordan or LeBron and college is a rude awakening for most since they are convinced they will be starting form day one. Look at the recruiting boards and you will see low ranked recruits with lists that include all elite programs...some are downright laughable...that is the current generation and its sense of entitlement rahther than hard work.

@JRyman I have been on record to saying I don't think the 5 point win is a big deal. I also said that Lucas was our best chance of winning that game.

Diallo only playing 7 minutes and winning by 5 was irrelevant to my post.

I said Mickelson won't see a different in PT because Self has never significantly changed someone role after stating they deserve for playing time.

And I will be the ultimate troll to you now :).

@JayHawkFanToo

So you're going to make the case that Landon and Traylor should start over and play more minutes than Bragg and Diallo?

No serious question? Please do tell, because I've yet to hear a point view that has changed my mind that Bragg and Diallo shouldn't garner the most minutes to play along side the designer.

Yet then again what do I know as I don't attend practices and don't coach the game. I'm just that fan that has no right to an opinion even though I watch ever game I can and even pay money to watch those games.

@DoubleDD

...and where did I say that? Are you sure you meant to reply to me?

I simply indicated that most every players thinks he is a star and has a rude awakening once he gets to college...what does this have to do with Lucas and Traylor?

But since you brought it up...

Bragg and Diallo have a much higher ceiling than Lucas, Traylor or Mickelson. No one disputes this.

In a couple of months Bragg and Diallo might be playing better than Lucas, Traylor or Mickelson. No one disputes this.

Right now, Bragg and Diallo are not better than Lucas, Traylor or Mickelson. No one should disputes this either after watching Bragg and Diallo at the Harvard game,.

Again, I am not talking about potential, or who is better one or two month from now, or whether they should be playing to learn regardless..I am simply stating that...at this time...Lucas, Traylor and Mickelson are better players than Bragg and Diallo. Of course it is just my opinion and I am sure some will disagree.

@JayHawkFanToo

Maybe Bragg and Diallo could be better in mere weeks if they got the playing time? It's been my experience the only way to get better is to play. Alas I guess will have to wait until conference play is almost over before these two actually get to play. Then coach will have a short leash on them. Please do tell me again how KU is going to win a NC with Laden and Traylor manning the paint? I need some Kool-Aid to drink.

@DoubleDD

Again, read my post. I never said that Traylor and Lucas are the long term solutio,n but they are the better option until Bragg and Diallo become productive...and KU needs to win games until they are ready, right?

@JayHawkFanToo

If Coach can't play Diallo and Bragg against the likes of Harvard, then when will they play?

@DoubleDD you are whining🍷koolaid! They will play before the end of conference, ok?

@JayHawkFanToo

If coach can't play Bragg and Diallo against the likes of Harvard? Then will they play?

@Crimsonorblue22

Nah not whining. Just know talent when I see it. Not playing the likes of Bragg and Diallo only delays the learning curve.

@DoubleDD ok, just trying to make you feel better!

@DoubleDD

They will play when Coach Self feels it will benefit the team and the players the most...he really, really is a good coach and makes an ungodly amount of money to make just this type of decisions and he will know when the time is right. Trying to will something, over which you have no control, to happen will only give you an ulcer. :(

Tonight could very well be the night. Coach Self has been on the recruiting trail. He needs to show potential recruits something. Speaking of potential, wasn't Steph Curry once a recruit that a lot of D-1 Schools passed on? Could you imagine the recruiting war in hindsight? Wow. It appears in that situation, all he needed was a chance. I see something special in Vick. I am not saying Steph Curry special, but he just has it, in my humble opinion. Looking forward to watching him play. As far as Diallo and Bragg, I am glad they do not appear to complain about their situation. There opportunity will come soon. It has to.

Sounds like tonight we will see a shakeup in the bigs minutes. Self said Traylor is nursing an ankle injury, Landon has the toe injury. Perry has the hip... as long as we aren't in a 2 possession game I think Self will let Bragg & Diallo play 15-20 minutes each..

@JayHawkFanToo You said, "Right now, Bragg and Diallo are not better than Lucas, "______" or Mickelson. No one should disputes this either after watching Bragg and Diallo at the Harvard game."

I'm looking at all games all players have played.

With that, I dispute your comment regarding "_" and in large part Lucas. I don't regarding Mickelson. Actually, in his time on the floor in two games, Diallo has been perhaps one of our most productive players. Bragg has had more minutes under his belt and thus more ups and downs. Diallo, when you look at his minutes played, has been better than all three of our vets.

Oddly, I'd say that our best player (per minute) has been Brannen Greene, for what that's worth.

Both he and Diallo have only two game sample sizes, but they have been pretty good in their time on the floor. I'm not big on two game sample sizes though.

@HighEliteMajor Yeah, tough to compare per minute production when the total minutes is barely 1 half of a basketball game. This has always been my problem comparing stats per minute. I know it's about the fairest way to do it but it still isn't fair. I mean, obviously Greene isn't going to continue to shoot 100% from the field.

And to me there are a lot of less obvious contributors that make per minute comparisons tough when the subjects being compared have vastly different overall minutes. Things like fatigue, slumps, competition played against (not just teams but individual match-ups), role while in the game, pace of game while playing (I know they can take care of this one with per possession stats but again not the full picture), etc. Not to mention aspects that there are not even stats for, like hustle plays, correct positioning, energy exerted, energy given to the team, good passes that lead to missed shots, hockey assists. The list goes on and on.

I know you work with the best information available to you and often do a good job of providing some of that unquantifiable context in your analysis. Don't think I am saying you don't! However, all of this data, even when taken in context, can only give a snapshot of how well a player is playing. And it would be like that picture was taken from very far away with the camera from my old flip phone. You can see it, it just is pretty hard to make out anything with clarity.

Eventually it really comes down to "the eye test" and "feel" which is why there is so much disagreement because it's all so subjective. Trying to make it not, neglects the full story. It's why some coaches can cut it and others can't. It's why statisticians can be valuable assets but do not get paid like the coach.

@DoubleDD

"If coach can’t play Bragg and Diallo against the likes of Harvard? Then will they play?"

Depends how they have been practicing.

We all want these guys to start getting minutes so they can become seasoned for March. Self wants that, too.

But this early in the season, it is important for these young potential stars to EARN their minutes and eventual starting position. EARNING minutes on a court helps young players take POSSESSION of their PT and become RESPONSIBLE and ACCOUNTABLE for what they do with their time on the court.

Self is spot on with his comments about players "getting it." (or not)

@benshawks08 One thing that I find very interesting is that Self many times goes against the stats. A good example is the Player Efficiency Rating. It is a well respected, advanced stat that uses a number of metrics to measure a player's total contribution. It a great, all in one stat.

I don't think any stat is ever the total picture, and the eye test is very important. I tend to think the stats do match the eye test a great deal of the time, and particularly with the one, most polarizing player on Kansas.

Last season, I felt that Cliff looked very good in his time on the court. I posted about it many times. I even said a few times that he was our best performer overall. Folks said that Self knew what he was doing. Fine.

However, Cliff's Player Efficiency Rating (PER) last season was the best on the team among regulars. The best.

Our regulars, in order:

1. Cliff
2. Ellis
3. Oubre
4. Mason
5. Greene
6. Graham
7. Lucas
8. "______"
9. Selden

This seemed to square, for me, exactly with the eye test except that I would have had Mason over Oubre and Selden ahead of "_____". Again, this is related to net production during minutes on the court.

I felt Greene should have been starting over Selden as we moved into January. I said that. I suggested making him the 6th man off the bench because he was playing so badly, to change his perspective, to get him reenergized -- I don't know why Self didn't do that, to be honest.

Actually, I think the PER stat provides us exactly what our best starting lineup should have been last season given the structure of the team. That may not always be the case, and probably isn't.

By the way, Mickelson, who wasn't a regular, would have been 2nd behind Cliff. After Maui, he was near the top this season. I haven't checked it though recently. One of the reasons I am a big Hunter Mickelson fan is that, first, he looks good on the court. Many good qualities that we saw in Korea. Further, his stats back it up.

I really like your comment -- "Not to mention aspects that there are not even stats for, like hustle plays, correct positioning, energy exerted, energy given to the team, good passes that lead to missed shots, hockey assists"

The eye test is really, really important.

I'm going to wish upon a dream and pencil in Hunter as tonight's surprise starter. He'll play ten consecutive minutes before he gets yanked for Traylor, but that will be long enough for him to stuff the stat sheet to the tune of a half dozen points, rebounds, and two blocks. All of his defenders will feel exonerated even in the event he never sees the court again all season.

That said, I'll have a slug of bourbon ready in case Lucas ambles onto the court for the opening tip.

@benshawks08 Well put. I have always thought that the items you mention ("good passes that lead to missed shots", etc.) are the ones that Self evaluates that most of us don't see (or only see part of the time). Or if we see them....we don't put as much value on these little things as coaches do. Hence his comments about Lucas in the last game.

@HighEliteMajor

William Bruce Cameron famously;y quoted "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

It is said that Albert Einstein had the quote written on the backboard in his office and the quote has also been attributed to George Gallup, the creator of the Gallup polls and a very well known statistician who quoted it often.

You seem to fixate on certain numbers and leave out a lot of factors that do not fit your narrative. a good example is your opinion of Alexander when you completely ignored his weaknesses in defense and how often he got caught out of position and his man would just score or the times he failed to provide weak side help to prevent the ball handler to score...just to name a couple...and solely concentrated on numbers that made your case. Again, these are thing that are not easily measured but a very important part of the game, particularly with Coach Self's system that emphasized defense.

Again, there is no denying that Diallo is an athletic freak with extremely long arms and a huge upside and Bragg appears to be one too; however, and as the announcers/analyst in both games he played indicated, he is greener than green when it comes to basketball IQ and at times he seems completely lost on the court. Embiid started the same way but was what I call a "savant" insofar as the game came to him so naturally; I cannot think of another player like him. Yes, Diallo has played in only two games but he has been practicing with team for a while now and I don't believe he is the savant Embiid is/was.; at least I have not seen it.

Now, you take an inordinate amount of time to look through the equivalent of an atomic microscope the performances of Traylor and Lucas and come up with very negative assessments. if you do the same analysis for any of the other players and looking though the same biased lens, you would come up with similar conclusions for every and all players. I would do it but frankly...I don't have the time or inclination to arrive at what would be a preconceived result anyway. Will Rogers famous;y said...there are lies, damn lies and statistics. We both know that statistics can be selectively manipulated to indicate whatever you want to convey; you do this very well.

You don't respect Traylor as a player - We get it.

You don't respect Lucas as a player - We get it.

You don't respect Bill Self as a coach - We get it.

Everybody in this forum knows I dislike Zenger because his actions have personally affected me and many other Jayhawk fans and I have described in detail before the reasons; however, you don't see me dissecting the contract(s) he signed on a game to game basis just to show how incompetent he is, do you? I simply state...I still hate Zenger...and everybody knows what I mean.

Maybe in the future, instead of writing a 15 bullet essay on the shortcomings of certain players and coach, you could simply write:

I still hate Traylor, Lucas and Self.

...and I can guarantee you that we will all get the message loud and clear and save a lot of bandwidth in the process.

@HighEliteMajor , I do respect your knowledge of the game and the effort you put into trying to get your point across but a lot of it comes out as more visceral than pragmatic...which is fine, because it is just your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion in the same way that those of us that do not share you opinion are entitled to ours. This by no means indicates that you are right and the rest of us wrong or the other way around...we simply see things differently, which is what makes our system so great. However, discussing the same thing over and over and over results in diminishing returns and will not change minds anyway and it gets to the point where it amounts to basically wasted time....wouldn't you agree?

Sometimes we just need to skip the details and cut to the chase...

BTW, I still hate Zenger. :)

@JayHawkFanToo I kind of thought I was in a discussion with @benshawk08 and that the PER is a quite relevant piece of the puzzle and his very relevant eye test comment. The Cliff example seems interesting, at least to my small brain. But you have been quite reserved in your prior replies, I figured this was coming at some point -- and I know you are diametrically opposed to my position.

I respect you and your opinion. I'll keep this all in mind.

At the very least, I'll try to limit my posts to a 12 bullet essay.

@HighEliteMajor @JayHawkFanToo

Strunk and White rule #13: Omit needless words!

Oops. That probably wasn't necessary.

@benshawks08 In my field, pithiness is next to godliness. The objective is to convey the greatest amount of information in the fewest number of words. Clearly, others here are in a different profession....;)

@HighEliteMajor

No problem, it's all good and we all learn something in the process. Look at this article by Ken Pomeroy ↗ about the plus/minus, which at one time was though/predicted to be the ultimate statistic and turned out to be of no use in college basketball.

I keep thinking of how much of the game is not quantifiable. For example, take the 51 second in the Harvard game where Perry scored on a 3 point platy to break the tie followed by a jumper that put KU in command for good. To me, these 51 seconds were the biggest difference in the game and yet you can't really quantify in way that gives it the weight it deserves....or the breakaway dunk that breaks a tie and the opponent's momentum and spirit? All these intangibles are what makes the game so unpredictable, frustrating and at the same time so darn exhilarating and rewarding...oh well.

@JayHawkFanToo I don't agree with the shorthand. I don't come to this site for shorthand, I'd go to LJW and read comments if that was what I wanted.

I love @HighEliteMajor analysis and thoroughness even when it re-iterates an old argument as it adds weight to the argument. I learn something more each time and can watch the game with more knowledge.

That said, I can appreciate counter arguments to round the overall analysis. Too many take a response from HEM as personal attack and belittlement. That's where we can all step back at times and take a deeper breath.

Or, find a way to bring solid reasoning and facts to rebut. What doesn't sit well is appeals to authority alone, but everyone agrees we've got a hall of fame coach. The dialogue teaches Selfs ears and he addressed. I guess we'll see what changes tonight if even briefly.

I won't however, as I'll be on a plane part of the time, but I will be logged back in and be on ESPN3 to see for myself at some point.

Rock Chalk.

@wissoxfan83 What other site? There is another site? Who the heck is Keegans? In general, WTH you talkin' bout?

@Bwag Omit needless words is not a call for short hand or even shortened responses. It is a quote from a book called "Elements of Style" and can be a useful hint if writing a two sentence response, or a novel. Length has nothing to do with it! Just an English teacher reminded of his Junior AP English class. No judgement intended.

(Guess I could have just said "no malice")

@benshawks08 Strunk and White has been panned in some recent reviews. e.g., this article a few years ago from the Chronicle of Higher Education.

http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497 ↗

Not that it doesn't have some good points, but not everything in it should be considered gospel.

@Bwag

I don't believe my intent was or my words meant to limit comments and I did not mention shorthand at all. I simply suggested that, for expediency sake, to "cut to the chase" as it were. You are welcome to post whatever you want and only the board moderator/owner has the discretion to limit comments, I certainly don't.

You must not come to this forum much if you don't know that some of the issues have been rehashed over and over and over and at this time, members have their own opinions and likely will not change...repetition notwithstanding. So post away and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. least of all ...me. ;)

@benshawks08 "English is a stretch language; one size fits all. That does not mean anything goes; in most instances, anything does not go. But the language, as it changes, conforms itself to special groups and occasions."

• William Safire, "On Language." Another book worth checking out.

@tundrahok Agree S an W is past its prime! #13 is the only one that stuck with me after high school. Don't know whether it is due to the familiarity of the number or the rule itself. I still think at least that one is still good!

@HighEliteMajor By all means, do not limit your analysis based on what a Bill Self cheerleader said. By his logic, he could just simply write, "Bill Self made the right decision. He has never been wrong, nor will he ever be. He gets paid a lot of money to coach basketball, ergo, he's infallible."

@JayHawkFanToo

I just want to apologize to you for firing on you even though you may have not have deserved it. Yet I'm tired of KU fans that question coach this year being label haters.

I don't hate Coach and I don't hate Landon, and I don't hate Traylor. Yet I do love the Jayhawks. So yes I'm not happy with Coach.

So forgive me and take my comments for what they are worth.

@DoubleDD

No need to apologize. What we say here in the context of a discussion is just opinion and we all have different ones. It would be pretty boring if we all the exact same opinion. I take your comment as those from valued member of our little forum; i might not necessarily agree with them but it does not make them wrong or right...just different.