🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I recently posted a thread where I held my nose, and advised we bring back our neighbors to the east, the Mizzou Tigers. This was part of the price I believe we need to make in order to recapture one of the longest rivalries in all of college sports.

If we do or don't do that... I suggest another addition... WHAT ABOUT DUKE?

!Kansas-Jayhawks-vs-Duke-Blue-Devils.jpg ↗

It is time we have a yearly connection with Duke. This is a great opportunity for both Duke and Kansas. This is an opportunity to begin developing an ageless rivalry.

We already have a rich competitive history with Duke. We've faced them everywhere, from the hardwoods to the auction block (for Naismith's rules).

Duke has the resources and structure to remain at the top of basketball. The ONLY other team with the same qualifications is? That's right, Kansas!

This is an opportunity to form a private elite club at the top of basketball. A club so elite that only TWO teams will be there. This is an opportunity for both schools to add yet another layer of "elitism" helping to separate both from all other schools.

!ku_bkc_duke_02_t960.jpg ↗

Most rivalries happen in local/regional areas. Why? Because those teams have a history going way back. So many of those rivalries have been lost because of conference changes.

Currently, we don't have a real solid rivalry. KSU Kitties pretty much stink at basketball. Teams like ISU... we have no idea if they can maintain quality high enough.

Nothing would be as prestigious as a newly developed rivalry with another elite team from another conference and another part of America.

I am glad we play in the Champions Classic and have commented on that extensively. I just want to make a statement specifically to address rivalry potential. Heck... I wouldn't mind if we had an automatic home-and-home annual game with Duke and then also sometimes play them in the Classic.

This would be an awesome opportunity for fans of both schools. AFH and Cameron are the top venues in the country. I would enjoy going to Duke to experience Kansas in Cameron, just like Duke fans would enjoy the experience of Duke in AFH.

@drgnslayr I had a tshirt when I was young that said Duke was a dog.

I may have an extra ticket for anyone that wants a seat next to me in the Garden btw... I think my friend is bailing on me so if you are interested message me!

Heck, let's form the super conference. Make it like the premier league who if I understand correctly has a tiered system where if you succeed you stay in the league then you get to stay if not, you're booted to a mid major!

So in the new super conference. Duke, KU, UNC, Michigan State, UCLA (I know they've been lousy recently, but out of respect to John Wooden they're permanently in), Wisconsin, UConn, UK, ISU, Virginia (as long as Bennett is coach), Villanova, Louisville. Syracuse deserves to be here in UCLA's place, but we hate Syracuse, or sorry, I hate Syracuse, so there. Imagine the nightly thrill of playing that schedule! There'd be must watch games every night, and then we don't have any court stormings because it'd be banned in this league. Dukie V would be banned from all Duke games! In fact he will get fired if he mentions the name. Any school that has multiple OAD's will be forced to forfeit games.

That's a 12 team league.

The 2nd tier is everyone in todays major conferences, they can move up based on how well they do.

Todays lower echelons of college hoops, your SWAC's and Horizon's and WAC's and all of the SEC besides Kentucky, can move up with upsets of 1,2,3,4 seeds in the dance.

I'm really liking this idea, Ima gonna send it in.

@wissoxfan83 The NCAA already has a tiered system with divisions like in European countries.

Europe also has the Champions League which is more like what you are talking about. Top teams from the previous season are eligible and play at intervals during the regular season. The equivalent would be the NCAA Tournament with one round every 2 or 3 weeks - but eligibility based on the prior season's results.

Very un-American...

@wissoxfan83 ISU? They would forfeit, court stormings are in their blood.

Louisville and hookers?

@wissoxfan83 do they have to take real classes?

@wissoxfan83 you're totally missing Arizona and Indiana! Definitely them over ISU and UVA.

Let's think about it. Duke became relevant after rat face got there; no major history before then. There is good chance that after Coach K leaves, Duke might go back to being irrelevant. This would explain why Duke is holding to Coach K for dear life, they [probably fear that once Coach K is gone, so is the program.

@wissoxfan83

I know you are a Wisconsin fan, but there is no way it is one of the top 12 programs, likely not even top 20 and maybe, and that is a big maybe,,,it breaks into the top 25 but not any higher than that. In it own conference, Indiana's record runs circles around Wisconsin's.

@drgnslayr Once again, you have out done yourself. Nice post

@JayHawkFanToo

I've stated your same statement to the Duke side of my family. They didn't exactly smile about it. They told me "not to worry about them" after K is gone. I tend to believe them. There is a solid "Duke Nation" just like we have our nation. And they have many people in influential positions.

I don't expect Duke to vanish after K, or hardly skip a beat.

@drgnslayr Who would they get as a replacement for Consonants?

@HawkChamp

I've heard Brad Stevens. But what about his NBA career? I heard this from Duke fans and they said his NBA career won't matter any longer because they won't accept no.

@JayHawkFanToo This is a really silly argument but here goes. Since 2000 Indiana has been in one Final Four, Wisconsin 3. Indiana is a has been in the Big1G. They've stormed the court for beating Wisconsin! Sure they had a great history until about 1990 or so. Wisconsin has the 3rd or 4th longest NCAA tourney streak. Last 5 years no teams have made the Sweet 16 all five years besides UW. They draw 16,000 plus every game. Bo Ryan is the all time winningest percentage wise coach in the BIg1G. Again, it was just a silly argument based on @drgnslayr's facetious post so why can't I create my own superconference with whomever I'd like?

@Kcmatt, I typed that superconference up in about 5 minutes and probably overlooked Arizona. My argument against Indiana is above!

@Crimsonorblue22 I wanted a 2nd Big12 member, and well, it was hard to justify anyone to fill that 2nd slot. Seeing as they beat us nearly every year I put them in, but yes, you're right, they'll get kicked out of my superleague when they storm the court!

@drgnslayr He would be hard pressed to say no to a program like Duke. Overall, though, there just aren't a lot of coaches at that level to take over for K.

Jeff capel?

@Crimsonorblue22 good, not great coach. Did do a decent job at OU though

@wissoxfan83

Since you included UCLA because of all the titles, the natural assumption was that you were looking at the all-time top 12 programs and Wisconsin does not fit that criteria.

Here is one list of the top 75 ↗and Wisconsin comes in at 28. KU is #2 by the way.

Here is another top 20 l ↗ist and Wisconsin is not in it.

Here is another top 100 ↗ (seems to be 5 years old) but Wisconsin checks in at 99; great progress since then.

Wisconsin has been good in recent years and you might have a case if you look at programs, say in the last 16 years but then, UCLA likely would no be in, but if you are looking at all-time programs. Wisconsin is just not there. The more important question is, will Wisconsin with its perfect storm of players continue to be good after those classes and Bo Ryan (you know he is gone, right?) are gone or like Wichita State, slowly fade into oblivion?

Having said that, it is your League, your rules, you put whoever you want.

@wissoxfan83 you did know Ryan's gone?🤔

I would not have a problem with having Duke as a rivalry game, but I'm not sure Coach K is fond of Coach Self! Also, if it did happen, it would have to.be done like we do with Kentucky, where it is home and away, and then wherever we play them in the Champions Classic, then back to home and away!

I think we need to start winning some games in this champions classic

@Crimsonorblue22

"Louisville and hookers"

Drop the "and" and you may have coined their new name.

@drgnslayr

I'm not sure you've thought this through.

Imagine having to LOOK at Coach Cara Raton twice each season! 😱

Imagine the cheap shotting! 😱

Imagine the cigarette endowment money!😱

Imagine the tar and nicotine exposure!😱

Let me ask this question for those who think Duke will suffer after Coach K.

Take a look back when Roy Williams left KU and us fans were in the exact same position Duke fans will find themselves in at some point. Bill Self was not an Elite Coach at the time and if anyone felt that way take the homer glasses off. Roy built KU into a great program, Self elevated the status even further. KU got it right, I'm sure Duke will do the same.

Insert Coach K, he made Duke- his replacement will not elevate what he's built but only hope to maintain it in the post K era. Duke will have their choice with any coach, no coach is untouchable professionally/collegiate from them, even Bill Self. We're talking arguably the top school in the sport. We can whine all we want but in the end the Duke brand is at a level that will not fail. I hope our coach isn't a serious candidate for them when it happens. I'm sure I'll hear the normal responses like " Bill would only leave for a NBA job". That could be correct but even at the level KU has reached with Self, there is always more and Duke is the premiere College in Basketball. That challenge alone could be enough for Self to want to take on.

As far as the OP was about, I agree would love to play Duke annually. Have many friends that are Duke fans and they hate KU for reasons I'll never understand. Probably because we have proven we can beat them even if year in they have more OAD talent then us. Having that East Coast rival such as Duke would be good for business. Recruiting, exposure, media attention it all makes sense.

With the way the Big-12 is, everyone else is just a pretend rival. We haven't been able to elevate anyone to a level that can consistently give us problems so why not make rivalries with one of the programs that can.

@BeddieKU23 Duke will still be pretty good when Coach K retires because they had a solid history with multiple Final Four's prior to Coach K, but Coach K is one of the 3 greatest college coaches of all time so there's no way they stay as good once he retires.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I agree that Coach K is a once in a lifetime guy for Duke. But saying another coach won't keep the program as good as it is, is a bit pre-mature to say, they will always compete for championships with the right replacement. The system is set to succeed with whoever takes over. Just as the program was set when Roy left for UNC. And the same for when Roy hangs it up and someone replaces him

@BeddieKU23 UCLA had a system in place with Wooden, Indiana had a system in place with Knight, UNC had a system in place with Smith. Missouri had a system in place with Stewart.

Having a system in place doesn't guarantee the next coach keeps a program elite. UCLA has not been elite since Wooden, a few years here and there, but nothing consistent. Indiana had a long stretch of being down not long after Knight. Bill Guthridge kept UNC good for his 3 years and when he hung it up, UNC fell off a cliff for a couple of years. Missouri has only had a few decent years since Norm Stewart retired after being a consistently very good program for a long time under Stewart.

I just don't see a coach out there that can do what Coach K has done at Duke to the level Coach K has done it at. Duke will likely still be a consistent top 25 team, but I don't see them staying a national title contender just about every year like they are now once Coach K's players filter through the program after his retirement.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree - there is no equal replacement for K. If I was hiring someone for Duke, I would go after Brad Stevens. The guy took barely known players to back to back championship games. Very impressive. Jeff Capel did ok at OU, but he is not what I would consider elite.

@BeddieKU23

My concern has been for some time that Bill Self is the most likely candidate to replace Coach K.

I have long suspected that ESPN's Jay Bilas has been contradicting the pervading bias of underreporting Bill Self specifically to build up Self's credibility within the Dook base for the time in the future, when Coach K retires.

Dook has to know that there is no one in the Coach K coaching tree that could likely come in and keep the program at the level it has been.

Bill Self moving to Duke would almost guaranty that the Dook program would IMPROVE. Self has shown that he is much better than Coach K for the last 5 years. I am not knocking Coach K, so much as pointing out how awesome Self has become in the prime of his career.Coach K was as much better than everyone else in the prime of his career as Self is now. Coach K could not have achieved an 82% winning percentage with Self's players the last 5 years, and probably not for Self's entire KU tenure. Coach K just can't have great seasons without stacked decks and a lot of referee support. He falls waaaaaaay off, whenever he has players and rosters comparable to Self. Thus, Self could come into Duke and almost certainly immediately improve Duke, so long as the dump trucks kept coming from Big Shoe.

Self has shown that he can adapt to ANYTHING. He could easily adapt his game, which now includes everything Coach K does, and MORE. My god, it would be effortless for Self to adapt to dump truck ball. He wouldn't even miss a beat.

Self would almost certainly win 10 straight at Duke were he to take over Duke given the implosion of the Louisville Hookers and UNC Easy Grading Heels. Pitino and Roy are on the way down. Calipari burned his bridge with Big Shoe by only getting her done once with the string of long stacks. Big Shoe's tries with .600 Johnny and .600 Cuonzo didn't pay dividends of the kind expected.

Clearly, Big Shoe's $500M investment in The Ducks signal that is one place they plan to operate from in the future.

It also looks like after giving Stumpy the experience of a short stack, after him blowing his long stacks, that out of some desperation they are going to try him one more time.

Their positioning of Shaka at Texas means they could have the Big 12 covered if they could just entice Self out of KU and own to Duke.

And lets not kid ourselves, unless the embargo has lifted on KU, for reasons not yet apparent, there is some price that would make Bill Self move on to Duke.

Bill Self either has to get more top players to KU, or be content to go down as top coach that was a one ring wonder.

I don't believe for a second that the ferociously competitive Bill Self is willing to end his coaching career as a one year wonder.

No. Way. No How.

I believe Coach K has been balancing two objectives the last few seasons. He has been trying to get another ring AND leave at a time when the right guy was available to take over his program.

There is absolutely no doubt who that guy is.

But Self has apparently not wanted to make any moves (to the pros, or to another college job where he could attract more top players) until Tyler hangs up his tennies and Self can either place him on a staff, or take him with him, so as to get hi son to the right situation.

Self has already replaced and exceeded one legend.

Who among top coaches in America can approach Self's W&L statement, ring, and absence of scandal, all the while making kids go to class and study?

Exactly no one; that's who.

KU needs to be amassing a war chest of unprecedented proportions if it intends to keep Self at KU until Self retires.

Duke tried to swoop in and take the rules. They failed.

Duke will try to swoop in and take Bill Self at exactly the moment that Tyler's playing career is resolved; that's my prediction.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if CBernie timed her planned departure date to coincide with the Bill Self sweepstakes looming. She appears a consummate bureaucrat. She probably suspects that any chancellor that loses Bill Self to Duke may become the Chancellor in Perpetual Infamy. She also knows how many IOUs and enemies will be made when the big dogs in Wichita square off agains with the big dogs in KC and Denver and Tulsa about who is going to be the next KU basketball coach if Self were to leave.

I believe Bill Self is a great Jayhawk. I believe he is as much a part of the KU tradition now as a non-graduate can be. But he left the Illini to get to a more competitive situation, where he could get access to more players. It has been a great match up, but the apparent embargo has limited what he could do. He has Danny Manning lined up to replace him. He could walk away from us honorably and Danny could step in and no one would be terribly sore about it. The love for Self is so broad he would be wished well.

But make no mistake about it. If KU does not make a huge effort to keep him, the Chancellor and the AD are going to be mud. And in order to mount a credible attempt to retain him in the face of Dook's deep cancer endowed pockets, KU's new Chancellor and current AD will have to open the athletic department and university open to a power struggle of epic performance among the private oligarchs that comprise the KU base. EVERY power player in Kansas' base will want a piece of the action now that the program is at an all time peak and the access means so much to political leverage in a red state deeply involved in Big Oil, Big Ag, and Big Aero.

This could turn into the MOTHER OF ALL BIDDING WARS.

And CBernie had to have seen it coming.

One possible obstacle to Self replacing Coach K would be that the US Army will most definitely want a Coach K disciple, preferably one with an Army background, like Coach K to replace Coach K, and Self lacks that.

But surely the US Army has to understand that neither Knight, nor Coach K, produced a guy capable of keeping Duke at the level they are at, much less improving them as Self could do.

The other obstacle--perhaps the bigger of the two--would be Self's staff and his demonstrated loyalty to them. Why would this be an obstacle? Self would have to be confident that the incoming coach at KU would keep half of them--a difficult proposition if anyone but Danny came. And Self would have to be able to take half of them with him to Duke; that would mean displacing half of Coach K's staff. Coach K appears to be just as loyal to his staff, as Self appears to be to his. Thus, the problem of both coaches' staffs could impede this eventuality.

But I'm telling you right now: I don't believe Bill Self spent his professional career to become a one ring wonder.

So get ready for some imminent CHA-CHING!!!!!

@jaybate-1.0 Danny is unproven as a head coach. Not sure how successful he would be.

In regards to replacing K and what Self is going to do long term, he has been contacted in the past by pro teams, and seems somewhat open to discussing the possibility of it. Something about Bill tells me he will not retire at KU unless, like you said, the university really, really, really steps up in order to keep him. If anything, I think he would go to the NBA rather than Duke or another blue blood.

How would everyone feel about Jay Wright as a replacement for Self? I know, I know, we just lost to him and some don't like his attitude. But, he has had the same amount of tournament success as Self, several thirty win seasons, has a ring, and is the only coach in Villanova history with multiple final fours. I would be open to him, as well as Tony Bennet and Brad Stevens.

@jaybate-1.0 respectfully disagree 100%. Bill Self is a straight shooting Midwesterner and would not be able to stomach the BS at Duke. I believe as much as he might lament the ESPN disadvantage, or being on the side of the shoeco war that is losing, he prides himself on being competitive by doing it HIS way which means representing the true mecca of basketball , just as he prides himself on recruiting good kids to fit his system, sometimes apparently over best available talent. Bill would only leave for the NBA. Imho.

@HawkChamp I think Danny and crew need to show some improvement or they will be looking for a job.

@Crimsonorblue22 I agree - as much as I like Danny, he would be a complete gamble. I would want someone that has proven success, specifically in the tournament.

@HawkChamp

IMHO, Jay would present an enormous bundle of pros and cons, independent of my dislike of him in the years of observing him.

I cannot imagine him being willing to leave Philly for the Midwest, so I am not going to go into the pros and cons.

But if he were willing to come, everything would likely depend on whether his shoe contractor was willing to send dump trucks, because Jay does not seem like the kind of guy that has been able to attract players from coast to coast to Villanova, as he would have to do at KU. Jay has done it at Villanova with the BoWash Corridor, where his playing, coaching, and recruiting roots, plus his style and accent are postives.

The same kinds of doubts were expressed about Larry Brown, when he, a New Yorker, came to Kansas. But we learned afterwards that his connections to the then young Sonny Vaccaro-Dean Smith shoe pipeline plus the full cupboard Ted left him, plus his short stay made his eastern roots hardly a limiting issue at all. And certainly being Jewish proved not to be a problem either. Kansas has always been more diverse than outsiders realized and has always been more ambitious about getting the best for its basketball program than outsiders realized.

Jay's one political trump card at KU might be him having been a Catholic and a Catholic school coach. I forget what order Nova is aligned with. Jesuit? That could be network positive at KU. That could help leverage him at KU at least some. KU obviously has a very strong Catholic base that is able to place Catholics in the Chancellor's chair and at the AD's chair and the football coaching chair from time to time, as we have seen the last decade or so.

Paying Bill if the apparent recruiting embargo has lifted makes most sense. It avoids so many problems for another ten years.

But Jay Wright could be a candidate if the evil Dookies make off with our beloved Bill.

P.S.: regarding Danny, he isn't as proven as Bill was before he came to KU in some ways, but Danny is a monster coaching prospect, even if he struggles at Wake. Wake is a tough place to get it done, as its in the recruiting shadows of UNC and Duke.

Danny's situation, like so many other coaches' situations, reduces to his shoe contractor's abilities to deliver talent, no matter where he is.

If KU's shoe contractor agreed to deliver medium stacks to him at KU, I believe Danny would very shortly be a force to be reckoned with. Recall Roy Williams became a major force within two seasons after his rookie start.

@approxinfinity

How I hope you are right.

@jaybate-1.0

Saying Self has been a better coach then Coach K over the last 5 years is again a homer view. K has won 2 titles in the last 6 years. I'm sure Self may have more wins, conference titles, the minor details that give Self even a chance of being considered a better coach. Then you factor in Coach K won yet another gold medal for team USA and Self just doesn't stack up. It's okay we don't need to compare them to each other because they are both at the top of their profession

But it will be interesting to see if Self is considered by them. He can do everything coach k can and knows how to keep a program at an elite level.

Self either retires a Jayhawk or goes to the NBA. No chance he goes to Duke.

There is one name on the Coach K tree that may get serious consideration depending on when Coach K retires and that is Notre Dame coach Mike Brey. Brey has been pretty successful at ND especially the past couple of seasons with back to back Elite 8 appearances and could keep Duke as a top level program because he knows how to recruit to an elite academic school. Brey is currently 57 so he would not be a long term answer, but that's a name to keep an eye on as a top candidate.

I still think Jerod Haase is ultimately going to be the man to replace Self at KU as long as he doesn't bomb at Stanford.

@Texas-Hawk-10

The bulk of the Duke success has come under Coach K. While they did have several Final Four appearances,before Coach K, the overall record is not good; 3 of those appearance were in a 4 year period but in the period between 1955 and 1980 when Coach K took over, Duke made it to NCAA only 7 times in 25 years. During the 40 years Coach K has coached at Duke, it missed the NCAA only one time...big difference.

Coach K has deep connection with USA Basketball which in the last few years has given him and unfair advantage over other coaches recruiting wise as shown by his recruiting success over the last few years. The new coach at Duke likely will not have those connections and also, it will be difficult to come over and maintain the level of success that Coach K has enjoyed and many of the better coaches will probably choose not to take the chance of becoming the coach that ruined the program. Likewise, replacing Coach Self at KU will be a tall order; Brad Stevens would be my first choice.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I picked the Stanford game to go to, just wanted to see him coach. Fans will love him coming home!

@BeddieKU23 said:

Saying Self has been a better coach then Coach K over the last 5 years is again a homer view.

I believe your alias may misunderstand me here.

Coach K has been a great coach, Some would argue the greatest because of his total wins and number of rings. I am not doubting his greatness as a coach for a career. Self has a very long way to go to catch him in wins and rings.

I am just talking about the last 5 seasons Self has coached, when Self has won so much even when the top 8-9 players on his rosters appeared to have had sharply less talent than Coach Ks.

I suspect Coach K might agree with me on this, if there were ever a reporter that would ask it.

Coaches often gauge the jobs coaches do by taking into account the talent they had.

Wooden winning his first two rings with teams without such overwhelming advantages in talent appeared greater coaching jobs than some of his later ring seasons. It seems hard to dispute. It doesn't mean Wooden was doing a great job in his later seasons too. It means winning rings with a team with every guy 6-5 or less has never been done since...even by Wooden.

Coaches often hold certain coaches at small colleges, or D1 mid majors, like the coach at Davidson, in high esteem despite their lack of rings, because of what they do with the lesser player talent they have had.

WINNING RINGS MEANS LESS, IF A COACH HAS AN OVERWHELMING SHARE OF THE TALENT IN THOSE SEASONS.

My recall is that COACH K WON SOME RINGS EARLY, when he apparently lacked overwhelmingly talented rosters and was a young Turk the refs were not apparently bending over backwards to favor. I suspect some of those early years and some when he did not ring out, he might have been better than some more established coaches thought to be better.

One recent ring season Coach K had basically a 1 in 2 chance to win the ring he won, because of how loaded his roster was in the first 9-10 players. There was only one other team that had a roster with a strong chance of beating him. And even then he appeared to need the refs help.

The other recent ring season he apparently had a 1 in 3 or 4 chance and could only beat a green Brad Stevens by appearing to have his team cheap shot and appear to have ref asymmetry.

Coach K's widely fluctuating W&L record and frequency of early exits the last ten years, especially, suggest his inability to win at levels Self does when Coach K has levels of talent that routinely Self has to coach with.

Coach K just doesn't appear to have been able to have won 82% of his games and 5 conference titles with Self's rosters and Self appears to have been able to meet or exceed Coach K's record and rings with Coach K's rosters.

This is not being a homer. This is just a reasonable inference based on what I have studied and observed.

It does not denigrate Coach K to say Self appears the better coach the last 5 years, when one indexes for talent levels.

There may come a time later in Self's career, when some coach exceeds him for a stretch, even when Self wins more rings with more talent and ref asymmetry.

Perhaps some Coach is already out there doing more with less than Self or Coach K right now over a 5-10 year stretch. I don't know. Bo Ryan at UW might have been a candidate. Maybe Jay Wright. Lin Kruger has done some amazing things with talent even Self might struggle with. Maybe some guys I haven't heard of that professional coaches would know of, too.

I have studied Coach K and Self some and not all the others, and I am only comparing those two.

Duke would be as lucky as KU was to sign Self; that's for sure IMHO.

@jaybate-1.0 said:

I am just talking about the last 5 seasons Self has coached, when Self has won so much even when the top 8-9 players on his rosters appeared to have had sharply less talent than Coach Ks

Recruit better, coach better.

Coaches often gauge the jobs coaches do by taking into account the talent they had

KU consistently get's top talent, again we get no pity party in that aspect

WINNING RINGS MEANS LESS, IF A COACH HAS AN OVERWHELMING SHARE OF THE TALENT IN THOSE SEASONS.

No, no they don't. Championships go in record books, history. There is no book for how they are won or because a team had a team stacked full of NBA talent.

was a young Turk the refs were not apparently bending over backwards to favor.

Something we agree on

One recent ring season Coach K had basically a 1 in 2 chance to win the ring he won, because of how loaded his roster was in the first 9-10 players.

Does that somehow diminish how hard it is to win the tournament, the same one we call a crapshoot, luck driven half the time?

Coach K’s widely fluctuating W&L record and frequency of early exits the last ten years, especially, suggest his inability to win at levels Self does when Coach K has levels of talent that routinely Self has to coach with.

KU has left the tourney early just as well in the last 10 years with some great rosters.

@BeddieKU23 I think Coach Self thinks KU is the premiere team in America. There isn't a higher or loftier coaching job in America than KU, in Bill's opinion. He is already at the pinnacle of college basketball where he's at.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Sorry about your Cougars yesterday. Maybe we could get SMOO and Houston into the B12, and call it the Big Southwestern Conference.

@jaybate-1.0 Bill gets his 2nd ring this year. Last year, his team was the number 1 overall seed going into the tournament. He signed the number 1 recruit in the nation in the offseason. 3 years ago, he signed two players that went in the top 5 of the NBA draft. He has set a new national record for consecutive conference championships ( note to fact checkers: don't tell me Wooden won 13 in a row, because he didn't- look it up). Our team plays on the biggest stage in college basketball. We have our own Monday night television series on ESPN called "Big Monday" throughout the season. We play every year in the Champions Classic, and have recently started a home and home series against the evil kensucky mildcats ( capitalization not required). Bill Self IS KU basketball. I know one should never say never regarding the future, but I'm with Approx on this thinking Self never goes to Dook as coach. My simple answer would be Dook takes Stubby Miller if the Rat leaves because he's already on the Nike payroll, and filling the paperwork out would be easier.

@BeddieKU23 "Saying Self has been a better coach then Coach K over the last 5 years is again a homer view." Bill is a better coach in every way, shape or form..twice on Sundays, even. You give us the same Dook creampuff bracket with two guaranteed home games to start the tourney, and we'd be UCLA jr. with national titles. Bill recruits players- the Rat is assigned players from Nike.

@JayHawkFanToo 7 NCAA tournament appearances in 25 years pre 1980 is not bad. Duke in the pre Coach K era was a good, not great, program.

Brad Stevens is not coming back to college basketball anytime in the near future, especially if a school would have to buy out his NBA contract.

@KUSTEVE

Bill probably does think its the best, he is the coach and cannot say anything else if he even wanted to. He's an Oklahoma boy and has grew up on the Big-8 to Big-12 his entire career. So for him having the big job in the Midwest may just be the best thing possible.

@jaybate-1.0 Wow. That is definitely something I hadnt thought possible. You make an excellent case about Coach Self going to Duke after Coach K hangs 'em up.

I ask you this in return. Say coach K retires in 5 years and during that time KU wins another title and maintains .820, do you still think Coach Self would bail for Duke?

I personally dont believe it will happen at all, even if Coach K retired today.
Coach Self is a lifer at KU unless Pop retires and the Spur's come calling...

@JayHawkFanToo

Makes me think....

Kansas vs Duke

Is our next big competition with Duke over Brad Stevens?

Personally, after I hear all the pro-Duke talk from family, it feels like we don't have a chance. Plus, the fact is that Bill will probably stay longer at Kansas than K at Duke.

I am expecting several Duke fans over on our site for this thread. Curious if we could get some to signup and comment. I don't know that I could get my family on here.

I will say that the Duke fans I know look at only TWO schools competing head-to-head with Duke on that upper tier; UNC and Kansas. Duke fans have the same disgust for Calipari as we do.

I have to say... I'm not a Duke fan but I do appreciate the intelligence of Duke fans. Kansas and Duke fans can talk REAL basketball. They know the game, just like we do.

I know Duke is largely hated by everyone that isn't a Duke fan, and it doesn't work that way with Kansas. However.... we do have commonalities with Duke on other levels.

@BeddieKU23 said:

KU has left the tourney early just as well in the last 10 years with some great rosters.

You conflate some player talent (Self) with much more (the stacked talent of other coaches)

You conflate the tendency for all coaches to be upset occasionally with better talent, when saving peak performances for the second of two, or vice versa, and coaches like K that just can't win at an 82% clip with lesser talent. I'm not talking opining here. I'm comparing K and Self in the few down years of K's roster talent with Self's flipping 10 year average!

You conflate recruiting with coaching.

Except in second tier players, there is no longer much evidence that recruiting charisma and historical record are decisive in attracting players, as they once were. Else how do we explain .600 Johnny at LSU and .650 Cuonzo at Cal last season?

When Self started, his charisma and smiles and intelligence, plus his years as an assistant building a pipeline with high school and AAU coaches, were great advantages and that is why he was a branded an exceptional recruiter, when hired. Now they obviously count for nothing with 5star point and OAD point guards and 5s. Increasingly, the petroshoeco/angency complex relationships appear to predicate that almost entirely.

Next, if you want to talk recruiting, it appears Self should either void his and the school's adidas contracts, if in his power, or jump to Dook as soon as Coach K retires.

And even if he were not to go to Dook, a likely way around seeding engineering and referee engineering and recruiting engineering afflicting him, would be to get to any EST program able to hold eyeballs and stimulate betting.

It appears highly probable Self in EST at a strong or elite major equals way more rings than Self in CST.

@Lulufulu

The longer Self can be delayed the less sense it makes for him to risk the move.

But Self's apparent priority has clearly never been the pros, or he would have jumped long ago. The pros seem at most a bargaining chip for salary bumps for him and staff and for keeping the private oligarchs of KU from getting to comfortable in engineering his exit, rather than him doing so. Every CEO would understand this. It's much harder to scheme around him if you can't promise allies and incoming coaches, when it might happen; this is exactly what Coach K is doing at Duke. He is breaking up the scheming with misdirection, so he picks his successor, not the schemers. And the pros may also represent an alternate path should he grow to feel he has done all he can in college ball.

All indications are Self wants to be the greatest great college coach he can be. He can't do that in the pros...not yet...probably not ever, because of the apparent stupid recruiting embargo.

But don't underestimate the lengths a disciple of Larry Brown and Eddie Sutton will go to achieve the goals and live their code. Sutton came out of retirement to get a few Ws at USF. LB coached into his 70s. Nothing is written with great coaches that like scaling mountains.

Self could achieve his goal at KU, if the apparent recruiting embargo lifted and apparent tourney engineering became less pronounced.

Or he could do it at Duke with high probability after Tyler graduates. Period.

It depends on what he expects with shoes and The Carney.

It appears CBernie wants no part of this looming issue with Self and perhaps hopes for a Federal role in a Clinton administration building bridges with Catholics HRC and Neolib elements of her party, new neocon republicrats and other Bilderberg affiliates have reputedly burned in the past.

IMHO, Duke desperately needs Self, or Jay Wright as a first alternate.

Why?

In part because Duke-Nike also appears in a pivotal fight with UNC-Jordan for control of the college shoe endorsement bidness.

The gloves appear to be off, looking at UNC''s dirty laundry getting aired.

Nike reputedly owns both but apparently only fully controls Nike, not Air Jordan, as Michael's impressive new yacht perhaps suggests.

I am reminded here of Nelson Rockefeller's quote.

"The secret to success is to own nothing, but control everything."--NRock

In this regard, MJ appears increasingly successful. While he is alive and a major public figure in control of his public image and action, he seems to possess a good deal of control over Air Jordan, whether or not Its reputedly a brand owned by Nike. Capice?

Put another way, Nike appears to own Air Jordan, but not totally control it. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how it appears to me. That appearance, if it were real, might imply more instability and complexity in the apparent petroshoeco-agency complex than may have been previously assumed by some.

So: Nike appears a house divided on some not readily transparent level, and we all know what happens to a house divided, as American inheritors of a Civil War legacy and as observers of the foundering EU with Germany once again caught (in part because of its own choices and in part because of those exploiting it) in a cross fire over who will one day control the Eurasian center point. New players enter the picture and opportunistically exploit all sides against the other.

UA, perhaps allied some how with the Roman Catholic business culture underwritten by, oh, say, some affiliate of Bank of Italy indirectly (just speculating hypothetically), or some as yet unknown player that wants to make mischief for all, appears ascendant. (Note: I'm not picking on Roman Catholicism. I like it as I like all major religions, when they are living by their virtuous principles. IMHO most major religions appear to have a business culture with some affiliation to some banking entity or other.)

But the point is this: All power conflicts internal and external to organizations get exploited by third parties, if beneficial to those third parties.

It's almost a law.

(Note: this is why Americans need to be so careful after this frightful election campaign. Don't fear Hillary OR Trump. Fear both for who they have to make UNPRECEDENTED NEW deals with to win. Because they both probably already have and you can be sure the decisive new deals won't be learned of for some years to come, even in the age of internet leaks. Here I am reminded of FDR's advice to Americans: "Anything that happens in politics you can be sure it was planned", or something like that. But I digress.)

adidas apparently tried, made some inroads,then apparently got caught up in externalities of international and regional politics and economics, and appears to be sagging so far.

UA appears better positioned with, shall we say, a a possibly very stable alliance partner , despite UA being perilously small. But everyone starts small, and with the right allies sometimes grows big. Ask Phil Knight and Bill Gates. Nothing is wrong with UA that some war time no bids for mil-spec shoes and clothing would not cure.

Regardless, complexity always rears and the unforeseen makes us keep getting up each day looking for another path.

Rock Chalk!

Reason #9538 for disliking John Calipari -

I almost made this a thread, but then thought... "why give the squid this much attention?"

Kentucky’s John Calipari takes a little dig at Duke’s Coach K over recruiting ↗

“I refuse to go in a home and paint a picture saying things like, ‘If you come with us you’ll be taken care of for the rest of your life by the program and by our alums,’ even though you may only be in school for a year or two. How preposterous does that sound?"

Notice the only avenue the squid sees for players is to be "paid off" by alums or the university. Shows how little he values education and legitimate opportunities for players to put food on their tables.

I can't stand this reptile.

@drgnslayr both of them!