🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Vandalism. ↗

Gotta be a record for charges (not the kind on the court) against one KU team.

Glad it is only a misdemeanor. I thought the star had reported there was $3,000 worth of damages to the vehicle but Josh only caused less than $1,000? It will be interesting to see what discipline he will face from Coach.

haha other "Unknown" individuals caused other property damage.

Nice job keeping the damages under 1,000 on Josh.

Criminal Damage to Property – Penalties in Kansas

If the value is greater than $25,000, you face a severity level 7 nonperson felony punishable by 11 to 13 years in prison as long as you have no criminal record.

If the value is between $1,000 and $25,000 the charge is a severity level 9 nonperson felony which carries a potential penalty of 5 to 7 years in prison if this is your first criminal conviction.

If the value of the property damage is up to $1,000 it is charged as a Class B nonperson felony punishable by up to 6 months in jail.

Ref: Kansas Statutes §21-3720

Is this related to the alleged vandalism a few weeks back?

Are there any third party witnesses that can verify this? If not, this is nothing.

OMG...THE HITS KEEP COMING...

@HawkChamp said:

Are there any third party witnesses that can verify this? If not, this is nothing.

"witnesses claimed to have observed Jackson "

The article isn't that long, you could have read it yourself.

@KUSTEVE somebody is really trying to derail these players and the team. That's the problem with the players being out and about - it is easy to be accused.

@Blown The article says "misdemeanor", not "felony". Do you confirm "felony"?

@ParisHawk dude, it's the same thing from before. I was wondering about any NEW information that includes concrete evidence.

@HawkChamp said:

@ParisHawk dude, it's the same thing from before. I was wondering about any NEW information that includes concrete evidence.

Thanks, in your previous post you had written "NEW" in invisible bytes :bowtie:

@HawkChamp Victims can be witnesses, too. Interestingly, way back in English common law they eliminated the "he said/she said" quandry by ruling that victims could not be witnesses. That rule went out about the same time as the Dodo bird or even earlier.

Bottom line: Third party witnesses don't matter. Especially if the victim witness's story is first, credible, and second, corroborated by other facts (eg., damage to the car; alleged perp seen in the vicinity; altercation preceding incident; etc.).

What hasn't been brought up is that this happened the same night as, and a few blocks away from, Bragg's stairway event. Related? Or just a really freakin' bad KU night?

@mayjay the timing of the events, IMO, is no coincidence. Soofi is probably involved somehow.

@HawkChamp not her

http://www.wibw.com/content/news/Report-KUs-Josh-Jackson-charged-with-car-vandalism-414723043.html ↗

@Crimsonorblue22 McKenzie Calvert is on the womens BB team. Timothy Calvert is her dad.

Definitely an odd situation all around

@HawkChamp They aren't trying to derail the players. They are doing it to themselves. And it is ignorant to think otherwise. He committed a freaking crime. Nobody made him do it. Or framed him. He did it. And I say that because they don't press charges unless it is highly likely that the person committed the crime or that they can at least convict them of said crime.

@Kcmatt7 right, because people never accuse others to get even with them or if they are jealous. How "ignorant" and stupid of me.

@HawkChamp You realize that I said that people are rarely charged without enough evidence to convict them? 95% of the time, when you are charged you did the crime.

So, when does this suspension start?

@KUSTEVE it's hard to say. The court date is April 12th and he is innocent until proven guilty. I just hope the team is able to fight through this and keep on winning.

@HawkChamp What a complete mess.

How many of the problems we have had this year relate to this one female?

The AD and coaching staff better figure out some structure that will help keep our guys out of trouble. This has become friggin' ridiculous. I'm getting peppered with all kinds of garb from non-KU fans.

Now prepare for March.... and the sports media going wild on all of Kansas' troubles off the court. Does that represent this team? No.... but we asked for it.

@drgnslayr Let's see..domestic abuse and vandalism. This isn't the Bragg girl, Soofi.

@KUSTEVE They will offer a plea deal in a matter of days I would think. Or just let him deal with it at the end of the season. Might get suspended a game or 2.

I say rest...I mean suspend all 6 starters for the next 3 games. All that rest..I mean suspension time will give them plenty of time to think about the things they did wrong and allow them to think about the future. They have been good...I mean bad boys and deserve to be rested...I mean punished. For some reason I keep getting my words confused; I keep writing rest when I really, really mean suspension.

P.S. ISU, WVU and Baylor are going to cancel each other out anyway and KU will not have to share the title.

@JayHawkFanToo no that would put the one seed in jeopardy.

@HawkChamp said:

The court date is April 12th and he is innocent until proven guilty. I just hope the team is able to fight through this and keep on winning.

Looks like fortuitous timing for Bragg's sudden emergence should Josh face suspension. I swear, if this team can tamp down its petty criminal behavior for 2 seconds and think before acting or reacting, everything seems to be coming together for an amazing finish this year. It would be a damn shame if these boneheaded off-court shenanigans derailed what is shaping up to be a magical conclusion to a history-making season.

@HawkChamp

The NCAA has considered injuries and player availability in the past and it would know that the far end of the bench played those games. The starters would come back for the Conference tournament anyway.

You know I was joking, right?

Ok, it's official.....girl ban for the team.

@KUSTEVE agreed

Where's DoubleD? We could definitely use a positive post from him right now

This is an absolute joke.

There was over $3000 of damage to the vehicle, but only charged as a misdemeanor. It is a rare instance that a prosecutor wouldn't charge that as a felony, and then work it to a misdemeanor plea or a diversion in the right circumstance. It appears the prosecutors are using some convenient skepticism toward the damages that other defendants don't enjoy when cases are initially charged.

Of course, maybe, this women's basketball player changed her mind on the value of the damages. -- a stinky quid pro quo, which may really be a "JJ will go pro, so collect once he passes go." .

The timing is impeccable and embarrassing. We wrap up the Big 12 Wednesday, and now we get the charges Friday. Who thinks this stuff up?

Again, embarrassing.

And a perfect time to set a court date, well into April. How many games on the schedule then? How does that work out? Amazing.

So I'm sure he'll get suspended indefinitely. And what do you know, he'll come back in two games or just in time for the Big 12 tournament.

I love the irony.

@ParisHawk it is a misdemeanor. Caught the error you pointed out. Criminal damage to property is a class B misdemeanor if damage is less than 1000. Sorry for confusion.

@HighEliteMajor Oh my goodness.

@HighEliteMajor Reading the article sounds like there were other perps who also may have done the rest of the damage. In any event, I'm not sure where your hostility comes from. People negotiate disputes down from initial demands all the time if that is what happened.

@mayjay I'll bet you they could get that door dent and the taillight fixed for less than 500 bucks at Earl Scheibs.

@KUSTEVE I was thinking the same thing.

@HighEliteMajor

This is really not new, the story has been a round for a while and it is only now that charges have been filed that the story has resurfaced. The damages are very subjective, absent an actual estimate for the repair, and even then, I can take that estimate for $3K to my local body shop in Olathe and they will do the exact same thing for $2K and if I take it across the I-35 to Little Mexico in West Olathe, you can get the same repair done for under $1K cash.

More importantly and as @mayjay indicated, charges are pleaded down all the time, in most case like this it is restitution and a fine. No need to make this any bigger than it is.

@HighEliteMajor

Yeah.... It isn't common for the DA to knock down a felony slamdunk to a misdemeanor the way they did it. The idea of parsing damages to negotiate it down to under a $1000 is laughable.

It sure pays to wear a Kansas Jayhawk uniform.

The real story here is that our guys are floating around in this world non-tethered to responsible watchers. For as frivolous as we look at these charges, we should be imagining a much worse scenario in the near future. It is just a matter of time. And along with all of these situations and their promotion to the entire world, bad people read, too, and expect our guys to be that much bigger a target next time.

I want to hear from someone in charge, letting us know that there will be a better structure in the future.

@HighEliteMajor Typically gets charged as a felony and then dropped down to a misdemeanor on a plea deal. They don't overcrowd prison for this type of behavior. Or give young people felonies if they can help it. Makes it hard to get a job and ends up costing tax payers waaaaaaay more money down the line. I had a buddy do something similar and he got his down to a misdemeanor and off his record 6 months later through a diversion program. Except his wasn't eye witnesses or he said she said. The cops actually saw him do it in person. The DA probably thought, with the evidence, they could only get a conviction of a misdemeanor because he couldn't prove JJ did $3k worth of damage and both parties could have brought in an "independent appraiser" and disputed the value of the damage done. Misdemeanor guarantees a conviction.

The timing does seem a little convenient, but you would be surprised how easy it is to get court cases moved around if you keep in communication with the DA and courts. They don't want to mess up your life and will work around it if at all possible. Especially if you have a good lawyer and he can prove that a court case on a certain date could drastically effect someone's life. A chance to be playing in front of a hundred scouts and improve your draft stock is something that they would work around for him. They even do it for normal people. Expected birth of a child during that time frame, huge business trip out of town that could cost you money, etc. If JJ does go to court, I doubt he will, then it is only fair to him to do it after the season. Precedence has been set on this many many many times by other professional athletes.

Although I do agree, it looks terrible and embarrassing and nobody familiar with how the court system works will understand that it would be normal procedure for any single one of their players to have court after the season in a case like this.

@KUSTEVE Well, it was a Ford Focus. Let's see, new tail light plus one door equals $3,000. At this a la carte menu rate, the 4 doors and 2 tail lights, plus 2 headlights say, would add up to $12,000. The top of the line Platinum with $2K in high tech options went for $26,000. Good thing no mechanical systems-cheap little things like engine or transmission--were involved. And that they didn't total the car--base starts at $18,000.

Now, if it was the $35 grand sports car model of the focus, well, ahem, the damages could really add up.

Well, this is definitely bad publicity that will be discussed all through March. I think there will be a suspension, probably tomorrow and maybe Oklahoma. Fortunately, this is a very tough team that has played in a lot of big games and has dealt with a lot of adversity this year, plus one of the toughest players in basketball, Frank Mason. Cant really sugarcoat this, but Coach will hopefully be able to keep them positive and looking forward to more accomplishments.

@Kcmatt7 When it takes the police two and one-half months to investigate a damaged automobile, it is probably acceptable for a seven week delay to get into court. Especially if the prosecutor uses potentially dropping the charges as a bait to encourage a civil settlement.

@mayjay

Many years ago I was driving on the right lane of a busy street and just went through and intersection with the traffic light on full green. The car behind me ( a couple of hundred feet behind) was driven by a teenager and friends going to prom and he tried the beat the light and accelerated so much that he came barreling behind me and instead of rear ending my car, he tried to go around the right/sidewalk, scratching the right side of my car and hitting a light pole. The Police issued everybody tickets even when I was not at fault at all.

At the court date, the prosecution attorney got all of us together ahead of time and asked if we all had the same insurance company...which we did; he said that since the insurance company would cover all the damages he would drop all charges and let the insurance company deal with it. It happens all the time and prosecutors don't waste time on cases that can be easily resolved among the parties and that don't involve personal injuries or serious violations. This was just a stupid and misguided action by a young man that probably deeply regrets it..I would think we have all been there at one time or another.

@HawkChamp I'm really beginning to think there is SOMEONE at the newspaper - -( THE KC STAR ) that has a pardner on campus and have a vendetta on these guys, just idol bullshit. Never.Ever, has there been so much crap going on. About the only player that hasn't been mentioned in anything this year is FRANK but give them time -- he will be - - -I CALL BULL SHIT PERIOD Your not telling me that it has gotten this out of control, something smells here, it just doesn't get like this with all these kinds of things going down in ONE year, It's time someone stand up and say what's REALLY going on. I think some one or some ones really trying to make these guys look bad. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@KUSTEVE LMAO, I'll repeat like what I read off another site UK lol, when they posted about Devonte, one dumm ass said Devonte should be suspended for 2-3 games lmao, -- then there is obviously a KU fan that has joined their site to rile them up, - he comes back on that comment and says -- HELL kick him off the team roflmfao. - -soo just for grins I'll say the same - -HELL kick Josh of the team lmao I mean no way should suspend - -just kick him off lmao - -some peoples reactions are sooooo whacked. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL ADY LONG BABY

@HawkChamp Josh will not be suspended. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@drgnslayr said:

It isn’t common for the DA to knock down a felony slamdunk to a misdemeanor the way they did it.

Let's call it "a very close friend's son" and his buddy found another guy's mother's purse in a car. They took the credit cards and went on a crime spree. Bought gas, bought hundreds of dollars in clothes, thought they had been really clever.

The deputy investigating the incident went to the other kid's house and the kid denied everything. He went to "my friend's" house. (We will pretend I heard this from someone and wasn't there, but then we also have to pretend I didn't dragged him aside and tell him his entire future depended on the next few minutes). The son admitted everything and said where the booty was hidden. The deputy left saying he would refer the case to the local prosecutor.

Later, the deputy reported that the charges identified as possible included some 6 felonies for identity theft, forgery, false presentation of a credit card, god knows what else, plus over a dozen misdemeanors for theft of the stuff bought with stolen cards. All a clear slam dunk, with video and a confession.

He called back later and said that the prosecutor decided not to press charges. The reason was how impressed the deputy was with the kid's remorse and honesty (and no doubt with a parent who--ahem--might have been there). All the stolen stuff was recovered. The other kid was sent to JD.

We later had the deputy take our little miscreant through a booking process. Everything must have worked. He has gone from uncharged felon to being first a state correctional officer to now being a federal law enforcement officer. (And he, by the way, credits a certain warning he got for helping to turn him around.)

My point is that prosecutors sometimes exercise discretion. They can even give a nobody teenager a break. Giving a break to a celebrity should be the same as anyone else, without everybody crying favoritism.

When was the last felony conviction imposed for car damage in a single incident?

@JayHawkFanToo HELL ya, rest - -umm dam - -I mean suspend all the starters, they need the rest - - -dam, dam dam see now you got me twisting these words - -dam I mean suspend, suspend, shame on you. I'm suspending you for twisting words. how many games would you like? 2-3-4 - -Oh hey you don't TRIP players do you by chance? -- just asking - -NO? -- ok how well can you act? - - FLOP? never mind we will just stick with your suspension for twisting words naughty naughty you. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer54

I would not count on that. He will likely be suspended but if he can reach a quick deal and resolve the issue, he will be quickly reinstated as well.

@KUSTEVE OH Lordie -- - ban for girls for the team? - - uh oh might make for some uncomfortable times in the shower room - - lol - - -JUST KIDDING don't come all in-glued lol - - -ROCK CAHLK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@JayHawkFanToo self said the issue was taken care of in house. Doesn't sound like there will be a suspension.

@mayjay Now days with the way things are 3,000 dollars damage to a vehicle very easily might not be a hill of beans. - -the way prices are jacked up doesn't take a whole hell of a lot of damage to incur that kind of cost in 2017. We have definitely taken a hit as not so good loosely run group. - -But I don't get it, yes these kids are 18-19-20 yr old kids, I just don't think staff should have to baby sit these guys even at this age, I know it's not good, but man these kids have to have some kind of sense of responsibility, maturity. When I was that age hell I had just graduated and getting ready to be married, I sure wasn't out vandalism vehicles property. these people know better, - -serious in all reality I'm at a loss no matter how minor/serious these things have become. - -I just don't get it - -never in the history of the program have we had so much of this come down on this University in one season -I just don't know - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@JayHawkFanToo GOOD suspend him then , can use the rest anyways - -be ready for the tourney. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@HawkChamp said:

@JayHawkFanToo self said the issue was taken care of in house. Doesn't sound like there will be a suspension.

Correct. It was dealt with at the time of the incident. He will play against Tejas.

Shaking my dam head. Although, I am glad this was taken care of in house. And, I hope this is the last "incident" we will hear about this year.

@BShark

Let's hope so.

@Lulufulu

Agreed. I am so tired of all these issues trickling down, it almost looks like is by design.

@jayballer54 Vick and the woman should have had mutual restraining orders.

These guys are so immature, it's ridiculous. I was just like them. Young, dumb, and full of ---.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18757925/kansas-jayhawks-guard-josh-jackson-charged-allegedly-damaging-car ↗

I love the some of the crimson and blue colored glasses here. It is really a good read. Not a flattering read, but certainly entertaining.

And I saw @KUSteve's post … "I just like them". Me too. For whatever reason, this team has "it" for me. I love Lucas' story, Mason is the best, Graham is a terrific complement, JJ is everything we'd ever want in an OAD (or player), maybe Bragg will turn it on, Vick is a star in waiting, and Svi, well, he can hit the three.

Nice year for a national title.

@Lulufulu boy, you and me both. - -The media is having a hay day with this. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@mayjay Couldn't agree with you anymore like restraint within 5 counties lol - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@HighEliteMajor

I am not sure how exactly read your post. I don't believe anyone here has condoned what has happened, on the other hand, there is no need to make it more serious that it should be. I personally think that he should be suspended for at least a game, if nothing else for the bad publicity it has brought to the program, but more importantly, so he will learn that there are consequences for the things we do.

I am not privy to all the details, I don't believe any one here is, and I am not sure what exactly "was taken care in house" means; for all we know, it could be something considerably harder that one game suspension. Sometime we have to trust Coach Self...it is not like we have a choice but we know that he is basically a decent and fair man and he will try to do the right thing.

@JayHawkFanToo He's not suspended. Make him shoot 5,000 free throws as punishment over the next 3 weeks.

I'm going to see the freaking Jayhawks tomorrow night, only been looking forward to it since November, spent a wad of cash (for me anyways) and will spend considerable time driving to Austin and eating out, etc, etc. Josh better play Coach Self. I know you're reading this. And if he doesn't and we lose, I'd like a refund.

Goodness I'm tired of reading about legal infractions of our team.

So it is not a felony because they could not identify that it was Jackson that did all of the damage. They could only positively say he did some of it. It was said there were a lot of people involved. I can buy that, I guess...But ...he will not be suspended. That is not a good look.

If I were Bragg I might feel a bit slighted to have been suspended for a crime which resulted in diversion and JJ is a few dollars from a felony crime and gets no games suspension. Not a fan of this move by self but it's his team and he calls the shots so that will be that.

Here is Coach Self's statement on the issue...

!image.png ↗

So now the Star has a story about how the women's bball player's minutes have been cut in half since she reported that Jackson vandalized her car.

I simply cannot imagine not suspending Jackson for the rest of the regular season. He purposely took out after a female, in anger, and purposefully damage her car -- all leading to a criminal charge. A criminal charge that has the earmarks of favoritism due to Jackson's status as player (both the lesser charge and the suspicious timing). And I'm assuming the young lady involved is bad news, for the sake of consideration. Making that assumption. Regardless, just plain ugly.

For that matter, if we are really trying to groom the players as young men, there should be a penalty for Graham's arrest. The guy was arrested. I don't even care why, or his explanation. He screwed up. The only way to really punish these guys is sitting out. Graham should have been suspended at least a game.

Regardless of what we do or don't know, much of this, with the public nature of all of the issues, is how the program looks. Again, this looks ugly.

None of this is major. I get that. But the limited reactions to the public airing of these issues is a very negative look for Kansas -- our school.

We are simply to just trust Self? We of course have no choice.

But we can call a spade a spade and offer our opinion. I think Self has screwed this up when he didn't have to. For the first time in Self's tenure, I question his perspective related to student athletes and priorities.

These types of stories can get uglier. This seems to have that possibility. In fact, we've seen it keep getting uglier.

@KUSTEVE Water - -? - - -Full of Water? lmao. - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

...sigh...

@HighEliteMajor agreed.

@HighEliteMajor I don't believe we know enough about any of it to make a firm conclusion. We have no clue, but you are making some condemnations with little evidence other than some news reports. If you know what really happened, either this incident's particulars, or how Self handled all of them from September 2015 to now, then you should enlighten us.

In the meantime, that is why the word "trust" gets used. Faith based on a lifetime of demonstrated good character. If information comes forward that he has violated his or KU's values, there will be more than enough time to light him up.

As for Graham, have you wondered how many people could technically get arrested for driving to the DMV to get a DL renewed? I came back with an expired license (7 mos) to Kansas from school out of state, and they just laughed when I worred about it, and gave me a renewal. His explanation makes sense. The "no-excuse/suspend him" approach makes no sense for this apparently unintentional violation, which I chose not to even count in my list on another thread.

@mayjay are you suggesting he won't be charged with the misdemeanor crime of property damage? If he is charged and convicted are you suggesting JJ punishment shouldn't be in line with similar infractions from current and past players ?

This is so ridiculous and KU players are the only athletes that have ever engaged in this behavior. A misdemeanor and JJ takes responsibility for whatever damage he allegedly caused. So what’s the big deal? I’m sure there’s no other side to this stupid story. There may be no excuse, but give me a break. This is being blown out of proportion, when you have other programs (BU) engaging in MULTIPLE team rapes against female victims.

I find this whole story huckin filarious. Let’s play ball and move on. IF this is our biggest problem, I think it’s safe to say, we have a team of young guys that behave as any other young and careless athlete that make mistakes. GEESH. I don’t want a bunch of young players that fail to raise a little safe hell once a great while. I think we expect too much and put WAY too much pressure on these young guys. It’s better to do less than $1000 of damage than many of the other offenses I hear from other programs. Most of the dirty laundry from other schools are simply covered by spin doctors, lawyers, and some very involved boosters.

RCJHGOKU and BEAT THE FREAKIN’ HORNS

@truehawk93 so why suspend Bragg 3 games for a lesser crime?

@jayballer54 Sorry...I read your post and couldn't resist to post...LOL

(

@Blown just taking a stab that Bragg was on thin ice. Take it anyway you want.

I know josh has been at some grade schools these past few months, working w/kids.

Isn't it great how this issue that's been percolating for awhile came to a head AFTER we won the 13th title.

What an incredible coincidence!

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

@HighEliteMajor so.... I'm on the fence on the suspension. On one hand I agree it would be a deterrent to the kid, on the other hand there are two parties here. So a punishment for ones negative action is also a reward for anothers. Is it not encouragement to the other party that they can screw with a basketball player knowing that any retaliation will result in a public shaming? I agree of course, damaging a car isn't appropriate, but we've got a pattern now of girls screwing with our players and then publicly shaming them for their response. So in that light I can see how private disciplining disarms that weapon.

@Blown It was Bragg's 2nd infraction.

@HighEliteMajor The truth is, it doesn't matter what you or I think about the way the situation was handled. What is done is done. I find it ironic that you choose to barely post the entire year until this incident occurred.

@Blown said:

@mayjay are you suggesting he won't be charged with the misdemeanor crime of property damage? If he is charged and convicted are you suggesting JJ punishment shouldn't be in line with similar infractions from current and past players ?

Not entirely, but I am saying that the process shouldn't be accelerated to suspension just because Josh is OAD. If the police hadn't taken so long,the charges could have been leveled in early January, and that would have left a lot of time for arraignment and possible resolution by plea or diversion.

I do think diversion is a realistic possibility for any non-sexual-assault misdemeanor. And the time it has been percolating could play a factor in whether the prosecutor thinks JJ is a good candidate.

As @Crimsonorblue22 pointed out, the difference between this and Bragg's quick suspensions could be the existence of prior issues with Bragg. And remember, his first puublic instance was an assault charge. Even though dropped, it came out there was a September incidence investigated as well. So the drug charge was a 2nd or 3rd strike (depending on if you count the dropped charges as either nothing because exonerated, or something, because it was avoidable trouble), meriting a quick suspension until resolved by the diversion decision. Josh's is the first.

Remember, we don't know when these things were brought to Self. If JJ and Vick went directly to him, a few points on their side for candor. We only know when they went public. I am surprised we never got rumors since last year of Vick's alleged assault, and that last semester's events all came out so long after the fact. Has the Board lost our inside contacts in the student body?

Finally, the big elephant in the room looming over everything is the rape investigation, even though arguably people have compiled timelines suggesting that no KU player could have been the perp. But that is the thing that has caused most people around the country to start believing the worst. It is guilt by association.

I just think we don't impose more drastic punishments for events prior to that because of getting fed up from hearing about it.

@truehawk93 Roflmao, OH ya, -- -I can just see it now lo, - - like I said, REAL UNCOMFORTABLE. that's pretty good, I like that lol. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Lets be honest with ourselves, Coach Self has a double standard on such matters. I am not taking anything away from him on what he has accomplished as a Coach and I have praised him immensely. However, on such legal matters he treats players and staff differently, recall how he handled the situation related to Snack, Traylor and now JJ versus how he handled Green, Mario, Bragg etc. JJ is a great player, best OAD KU has had so far, but there is no excuse for not suspending him and Coach is calling him a Great Ambassador for KU.

Let's try it this way -- Self's punishment, when we all look at it with his knowledge, may actually be reasonable. Let's acknowledge that. That's fair. The point was made that Self has earned our trust. That is very true.

Even with that, there are two very good reasons to suspend JJ that trump whatever inside knowledge Self has.

There are no denials that JJ pursued a female into a parking lot of a bar, after she threw a drink in his buddy's face. Then damaged her car by kicking it. In fact, Self has admitted it occurred by saying he punished JJ for it already.

First, without a suspension for JJ, it makes our program look very bad. So if you forget the discussion on whether the action warrants suspension, that is perhaps something everyone can agree on -- this looks bad for KU. I would also say it looks bad for Self. You purposely follow a girl out of a bar and damage her vehicle, because she threw a drink in your buddy's face, and punishment is internal? Anywhere else, we'd be mocking that program or coach. I didn't raise my sons to do that to a woman (or a man, but we can acknowledge the difference). I bet most of you didn't, either. And I bet most of you, if your son played sports, would feel a suspension of your son would be warranted, regardless of the girl that was part of it. Again, why?

That brings me to point number two -- because it is a terrific life lesson -- there are many folks sitting in the Lansing penitentiary that escalated an incident. I would want my son to learn that lesson through punishment on something that is rather benign in the scheme of life, that might deter future conduct. And that goes to @approxinfinity's post regarding the dilemma in dealing with a bad actor on the other side (which we are just assuming at this point). Regarding escalation, remember, it can go further. The young lady could of course have a gun and with an angry 6'8" man damaging her car, one might wonder if she should seek to defend herself. That's the risk of escalation. I would want JJ to be punished strongly to demonstrate to him the seriousness of escalation.

Mind you, this is not just responding, which is different. This is not JJ standing in a bar and a guy swings at him, and JJ responds and decks him. This situation with the young lady was clear escalation.

To that issue, what if this young lady is your daughter? I would not want my daughter throwing a drink in any man's face to begin with. Also, there are freaks that will punch (escalation) you for it (such as the animal from OU that decked that young lady we saw on video). But would anyone with a daughter believe it to be reasonable for a man to damage her car because of it? I hope not.

Also, is JJ Vick's defender? The girl didn't throw the drink in JJ's face, right? So JJ intervenes AND escalates.

Last point -- really, under the law, what the girl did in throwing the drink in his face was committing a battery. Folks have been charged with a battery for spitting on someone. Just a thought there.

Ok, really last point -- if there is a punishment of JJ that anyone feels is more severe to JJ, meaning more impactful to him that sitting on the bench in street clothes for the world to see, let me know what that is.

I have noticed in the last three weeks that Josh has been doing some community outreach, reading for elementary schools, visiting classes and answering questions. He has apologized to the victim and has offered to pay for all repairs. Like the Lady Jay that threw a drink in a teammate's face, Danny Manning got in trouble while in the NBA for throwing his drink in a woman's face.

http://m.kusports.com/news/2008/aug/20/freshman_jayhawk_basketball_player_gets_court_date/?templates=mobile ↗

You can read how Bill handles Markeif Morris' alcohol/BB gun incident. (Above link from Aug 20 of 2008 )

In summary, handled in house.

Let's cut to the chase: when you perform on the court, you get a longer leash. For those that support justice, that is the hardest part to accept.

@Blown what about Brady?

@dylans also remember how he handled Tharpes racy photo--he mysteriously leaves the team.

@Blown said:

Let's cut to the chase: when you perform on the court, you get a longer leash. For those that support justice, that is the hardest part to accept.

I think people, having effed up, who demonstrate that they are bearing down on their responsibilities are always treated more leniently for minor offenses. Go to some bail/bond hearings and see how often having a job with a boss coming in to testify about good character results in the judge giving people a break.

Justice is supposed to be blind, not ignorant.

@Crimsonorblue22 suspended an entire semester wasn't he?

Ignorant ? Wow.

This is my last post on this subject.

Becoming enraged over an altercation that didn't involve him, chasing after a female and committing criminal property damage is not a minor infraction, imo. That seems to be where we differ in opinion.

Also, fwiw in my opinion there is a slight difference in taking responsibility for something and paying for the consequences of your actions. Taking responsibility is proactive and paying consequences is reactive.

@Blown Apologies. Ignorant wasn't describing you. I meant Justice is not to be uninformed of the character of the people appearing in the dock.

@Blown he ran out of chances.

Whoa put down the pitch forks and the gasoline. Now take a deep breath, raise your hands to shoulder length, close your eyes, and touch your nose. I will give you a moment to complete the task.

Lets understand and view a few things here. I know KU has been getting beat up this year with these charges. Right or wrong the media has been on these occurrences like a crazed dog. however lets not panic. The sky isn't falling and in fact the future is quite bright.

There are three things I want you to consider before reaching your conclusions.

1. Kids will be kids. If you've never been to or grown up in a ghetto area, it's hard to put things in prospective. What you might see as unacceptable behavior, is a way of life in these troubled areas. It really is a perception thing. It's all in how you perceive things. All we see is that JJ was convicted of property damage. Yet why did it happen and what caused JJ to reach a point that he would do damage? It appears to me that this Jezebel or lady, has been creating a lot of problems for the men's basketball team. It appears as more facts come out that this Jezebel started this altercation, by seeking out Vick and throwing a drink in his face. Keep in mind Vick was on probation because of his relationship to this Jezebel. He's not going any where near this girl. She sought and tracked him down. Right or wrong JJ was defending his brother. It happens all the time with boys/young men.

2. The problem with the media isn't that they don't report. Yet they don't follow up on what they've reported. It really is a disservice to the fans and people in general. Too many people still think that Bragg pushed that Jezebel down. Yet you don't now that unless you are invested or have a interest in the issue. In this I think Coach has nailed it. He's not going to dole out punishment until a conviction is handed down, or a confession is made. JJ's situation was already handled in house. Tells me JJ told Coach the truth and confessed to what he did. Sound like a bad kid or program to you?

3. Of course Coach not punishing JJ in front of the world to see looks bad. However who cares? It's not like the media and the talking heads are going to give the topic it's proper due. News/Media butters their bread with negative news. They're not going to give KU and Coach props for doing what they perceive to be the right thing to do. The News/Media are about tearing down not building up. These issues will blow over like the seasons of the year. Here today gone tomorrow. Nobody really cares but those that are truly invested in the perception of the KU program, or the demise of it.

If Coach is comfortable with playing JJ, then so it shall be. Besides who knows these kids better than Coach?

@HighEliteMajor you make good points. The female should be punished also. All involved should not have been there late at night and hopefully they avoid that in the future.

@DoubleDD I think the issue is some are viewing this as coach giving Josh the star treatment. IMO, he should have been suspended when Coach first learned of it. I do fear that this will damage his reputation amongst coaches and the athletic department in general. I would have thought at least a one game suspension would have been the minimum, but ultimately we have no control over these things. They need to tighten things up to prevent an incident like this from happening again.

@Blown I'm not justifying anything. If KU wants to be the program we all desire and expect, we wouldn't have a team. It's a bit like the Geneva Convention. The US will play by the ROEs, but will others? H-E-L-L NO.

So, my point @Blown, if all other programs play by the "rules" and suspend players for greater than or less than offenses? Great, lets suspend players. But you know other programs will NEVER, I mean NEVER suspend players. Coaches get it, I get it, and most others do to. It's ridiculous to penalize your program when other programs will not penalize themselves.

Again, there are no excuses and HCBS can do whatever he wishes. But in the end, why should KU suffer and have the "higher" standard, whatever that means and allow other programs to succeed? This is the problem with college bball. We've lost all sense of integrity and athletic standards.

"But we are KU..." Yes, BUT, why should we have a higher standard than other programs? To get recruits? LOL Get NCAA points? LOL Get more wins? LOL Recruits don't care about a programs "off court" issues. They want to win and get to the NBA, PERIOD. If that were the case, UK would've failed to get the OADs they've gained over the years. You could argue, "yeah, and look at the their program, no one likes them either." But they've won how many NC since Cal has arrived? Two in a very short amount of time? Show me a program, other than KU, who has applied suspensions or penalties, maintained a stellar reputation as solid program, and then WON championships. You can't because they need the players they have to WIN. This is why they recruit them. What's the point in recruiting them if you're going to suspend them for something minor? You have to take a risk on these recruits. We've suspended players for some really common stuff and we LOSE every time, but hey we're KU. Dook, UNC, and UK, and now many others are winning with little to no suspensions or player penalties. You think people are looking at KU and saying, "what a great program, they suspend players for off court issues"? I doubt it.

@Blown So, are you ready to suspend Josh Jackson right now? You nor I know the whole story to this mess. I think it's funny how we want to PENALIZE or SUSPEND players when we don't know the whole story. I'm sure if HCBS knew this was going to get ugly or be problematic, he would in fact bench JJ, wins be damn.

@Blown I don't disagree with you, I just want to be realistic on this issue.

I'm going to let HCBS make those decisions. It's what he's paid to do. All we can do is support and hope for the best. Bottom line, I want to win like the next team. I don't want KU to suffer if other programs don't own up to their off court crap.

RCJHGOKU and Beat the Horns

@mayjay

Good read.

I'm just not sure the police and DA have the same heart they had back in our day... even though I had crazy things happen back in the 70s and 80s. For example, I'm in another guy's car and he gets pulled over and they brought drug dogs into his car and found 3 pot seeds buried in the back seat. This was in Texas, and at that time they gave a minimum 10 year sentence on drug charges (with no parole). The police discussed with themselves whether 3 seeds was enough to get a conviction and there were 3 of us in the car and we were all going down. I had nothing to do with those pot seeds. We were let go... luckily.

Friggin' crazy.

But I think back about everything else we got away with in our youth and police just let us go. Now they bust kids and give them a record, including felony record, and they do it too often.

When coach K reinstated Allen from his suspension he was criticized on this board for being too soft and that suspension should have been much longer. Now some posters are saying who knows better than coach when JJ doesn't get any suspension. Some folks have said that kids will be kids but don't realize that these are not ordinary kids. They are student athletes on full scholarship with many other benefits representing an elite program. They get enough counseling on importance of avoiding conflicts. They need to conduct themselves in a civil manner. I think coach has put himself in a bad spot by not taking action on this case especially when so many off the court issues have happened this year. What message has he sent to other players, you won't be punished if you're a super star like JJ.

@drgnslayr Not only do we not know the complete story, the freakin' case hasn't even gone to arraignment, let alone been adjudicated! The modern version of lynching is the internet demand for punishment.

One poster here said when this stuff first surfaced that "the facts don't matter" because we should punish them because we have been so humiliated. And another says Devonte getting arrested justifies suspension regardless of any explanation he could possibly have.

Now those are well-reasoned responses to a difficult situation.

Okay, sermons are over. People who want to bail can bail. I won't, not without more.

@mayjay

Yeah... I didn't see a reason to suspend Josh for this. My concern isn't about any of the trouble this year, but just the fact that we've had so many situations, showing we need our guys to be monitored better off the court. It's not like any of our guys are criminal types. But our guys are a target for every wannabe out there.