🏀 KuBuckets Archive

http://herosports.com/news/tom-crean-fired-indiana-replacements-ahah ↗

Oh yah, I forgot Coach Dooley was at FGCU...they almost beat FSU

If I'm Indiana, my first phone call is Gregg Marshall's agent. Marshall isn't leaving Wichita for some random program, but we all know Indiana isn't a random program. This is a top 10 all time program (probably 6) and a place you can contend for and win national titles at pretty quickly. IU is also one of the Power Conference programs where basketball takes priority over football so Marshall would be the top dog at Indiana. This will be the best job offer Gregg Marshall could be considered for so if he's going to leave Wichita, this is the job he'll leave for.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I have been thinking today it's only a matter of time before Marshall is announced as IU coach. Can't imagine who they would want more.

It's good that Dooley's getting looks. I just selfishly want him to stick around Larryville.

I don't want Indiana to get a good coach.

I could be wrong... but I know a guy who works for Marshall. I haven't heard any inside news about this situation but a month ago he told me Marshall was happy at WSU and didn't want to leave. He's a family man so there is a lot involved.

This type of information is usually top secret. Coaches like to keep some mystery in their intent, even if it is just a tiny bit, so they don't lose negotiation leverage. Plus... they never know what kind of offer comes their way in the future. So maybe they feel like they would never leave, and then the right deal comes a calling (See Roy Williams).

@drgnslayr Marsha is so po'd about the seeding he gets every year but to change that he needs to move up. I guess he doesn't have the 🏀🏀 to do that. Money or not. Mvc is not getting better and if you have no desire or motivation to better yourself than he will have to continue to bitch about his seeding. Big greasy slimy fish w/money. Likes to play the angry card and it's his own doing. Not popular amongst his peers!

@Crimsonorblue22

Yeah... how can he play "underdog" at Indiana?

He has made his own bed, and now has to sleep in it.

@drgnslayr Indiana is a caliber of program that if they call, you pick up the phone and listen to what they have to offer. IU is a top 10 job and those don't come available very often. If Marshall doesn’t get or take this job, I would bet money that he retires from Wichita St.

@Texas-Hawk-10 hard for me to understand how a coach could be happy to live his dream job out there! I'd heard he'd like the nc state job.

Unbelievable that Crean has fallen so far since his victory over KU.

On another note, who do you think would win more games if he coached at KU, Dooley or Marshall?

@chriz Marsha at KU🤢🤤

@Crimsonorblue22 He's from South Carolina so that's probably the reason why he'd be interested in NC State, but I have a hard time picturing him there where NC State will always be the #3 school on Tobacco Road.

He could definitely keep the underdog amd disrespect cards there though. I don't know if NC State would pay as much as he's making now though.

I think if he has a choice, I think he takes Indiana and goes chases the rings which is much easier at Indiana than NC State.

@Texas-Hawk-10 IU maybe one of the few places I could see giving the money to get him and him wanting to go. He is currently the 9th highest paid coach in D1 and probably wouldn't get any pressure from WSU until 3 or 4 crap years. I would stay if I was him, already making bank for a midmajor and if he hangs for awhile long half the campus will be named after him.

@kjayhawks you would stay just based on money?

@kjayhawks He'd also never have a real shot at a national title at WSU. Indiana is a place where you can win national titles at and if that's not a coach's eventual goal, then why are they coaching?

If Marshall is offered the IU job and turns it down, he's admitting he's not good enough to win a national title.

@kjayhawks

I know some posters don't like Marshall but there is no doubt he can coach. With the Indiana tradition and resources and playing in a major conference, he could have what he cannot at Wichita. Marshall and Archie Miller are the most sought after candidates at this time.

I am no fan of Marshall or WSU, but help me understand how he wouldn't have a "real shot" at at national title at WSU?

They made it to the final four sooner than Gonzaga. Butler made it to the championship game (twice) and missed it by that much..

I know there is this perception floating around that only major conferences can win the title, but what is the logic behind that?

@bskeet

If IU had a Nike contract, I believe Marsha or more likely Archie Miller would already have been ordered by Nike, er, chosen to take the job, like good little Nike coaches.

But if IU had a Nike contract, Crean would have gotten more players and won enough to stay. The guy learned under Izzo, won at Marquette, resurrected IU, and knows his stuff,

IU has an adidas albatross around its neck, so Nike coaches will be wary of IU, unless IU is ready to sign with Nike, or unless they are late enough in their career they figure the IU adidas money is a tradeoff with kissing (and pissing) off the Nike mafia..

As an adidas school, IU logically needs a coach with adidas ties and one willing to live with the adidas constraint of limited players in exchange for adidas money and independence from the octopus with swooshes on his tentacles.

Tom Crean did not fail as a coach at IU. He is a decent coach. He apparently failed at IU-adidas, because adidas apparently quit being able to deliver the players needed in sufficient numbers and Crean is not as good of a coach as Self. Crean apparently could not overcome the "player diet" that Self has apparently kept finessing around for a string of conference titles, instead of the string of national titles he would likely have gotten at a Nike elite.

The advantage of an elite program in a power conference with a Nike contract appears to mean someone like midmajor Stumpy Miller can get a steady stream of top talent from day one at a major.

Archie Miller could do the same at UA, as Stumpy. So could Marsha. So could Crean. So could Joe Dooley. So could any solid coach. At UA-Nike, top rank talent and depth appear never in short supply. At IU-adidas, and KU-adidas, they increasingly seem to be.

Indiana has to adjust its sights down a little to take the adidas money, same as KU did.

IMHO, Crean's recruiting volume has apparently trended downward congruent with Pitino and Self in recent seasons. Each signed a few top players, but not enough. And their declines in recruiting volumes appear greater proportionally than the declines at NIKE elites.

Bottom line? Self, Pitino and Crean don't appear to have stables as full as Coach K, Cal, Roy and Stumpy, even after the gaudy bling of long stacking ended.

Anyone with a brain can see that KU with Self and a Nike contract and the level and quantity of talent Nike elites have gotten would likely have won several rings instead of one.

It appears adidas schools are trading off less talent volume for more money volume.

IU is frustrated. They want the adidas money, but they want to win more than adidas players allow. Wah wah!

In their frustration, Crean looks like Kek the frog and so makes a good scapegoat for a Chancellor and AD rolling in dough, but with grumbling fans. Get rid of froggie little Crean, who resurrected their corrupted mess of a program, and try someone else, while the higher ups keep the adidas bones; that seems the dynamic.

If Stumpy Miller, who faces his own appearance challenges, but not the recruiting volume deficiencies, were at IU, he too would probably be being sacrificed.

It's all sickening.

Joe Dooly is probably a good fit. He is late enough in his career that the adidas money now could make kissing off Nike worth it. He's got adidas ties through KU. He is a resourceful coach that understands the adidas limits.

And he has funny ears, so IU can fire him in four years and keep taking the adidas bones.

(Note: all speculation and opining.)

Obviously Call #1 will be to Steve Alford but I heard he's got a $7 million buyout so that's steep but if Indiana wants to win that's the price they will have to pay to recruit better talent and get better results on the court.

The appeal for Alford going to Indiana is great especially with his son a Sr and his banner freshman class headed off the draft. He'll have a good team next season but you wonder what the allure of coaching the school he once was a star for would be for him personally. Indiana isn't a step up from where he is currently and the pressure is the more or less then same

He can stay in Fort Myers instead of moving to Bloomington IN, keep rolling out 26-8 teams in the Atlantic Sun, and get himself a golden ticket to the dance annually... But...

FGCU recruiting class 2016 ↗

IU recruiting class 2016 ↗

@Crimsonorblue22 That's my favorite post of yours of all time!!

@Texas-Hawk-10 said:

If Marshall is offered the IU job and turns it down, he’s admitting he’s not good enough to win a national title

As @Crimsonorblue22 so eloquently stated above, the big greasy slimeball is going nowhere because, while he's a scumbag, he's smart enough to know that he can't coach with the big boys. After a couple of 8-23 seasons (whatever) he would just slink out of town and go sell used cars somewhere.

@BeddieKU23

Agree Alford is an option. UCLA and IU are adidas constrained.

$7 million is NOTHING. If Ryancare goes through, every billionaire is going to have another $7M in his pocket, plus the other Trump gimmes will leave another $10-100M in corporate coffers. Plus Pence will make it rain from D.C.

It comes down to lifestyle. They've cleaned up the air and crime and graffiti on the west side of LA. It's an easy hump to a private jet on the west side. Life is sweet in LA with money and a hedge. Arena size is irrelevant in the TV-Shoe era. Hawaii is a shorter hop than the carribean. The only downside is LA and the UC system will be in the cross hairs of the Trump-Pence Admin. Adelson will be looking for LOVE or SCORCHED EARTH in California. Pence will flood Indiana with Federal bones. Life will be good in Hoosier land, especially if Trump is sacrificed. Alford is a long time gone and his dad has reputedly been with him.

Up to Steve, but both schools are fickle.

@jaybate-1.0

I believe UCLA is going to UA correct?

Just seems like the Roy/UNC talks back in the day. It seems inevitable Alford will be going to Indiana.

@BeddieKU23

Not sure if the analogy holds, because Alford has a good dad and no mentor pulling him neurotically back home. It would be easier to beat the adidas limitation in LA. More stray talent there. But if Steve and wife love the Midwest then yes he should take it.

IU will probably pay him a lot more and that could decide it. UCLA tends to under pay.

@Texas-Hawk-10 There is an article in ESPN today ( 3-17 ) talking to Marshal, he states that some day he will probably leave Wichita State, saying right now he is happy with his 3.3 million but says he will always listen, so who knows he MAY very well end up at Indiana if they offer. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Crimsonorblue22 Agree, has been mentioned as you say he is PO'd about his seeding guess he really went off, and like they said as long as he is in the Missouri Valley that's going to continue unless WSU moves to another conference or in the end run like they say either Wichita State out grows the valley - -OR Greg Marshal out grows WSU- -something is going to have to give in the end run. - -The Koch brothers as you know got pretty big check books , I know they were saying you know he may be thinking if I'm here in this conference am I going to have to win the conference every dam year to get a bid - -get screwed on my seeding -who knows. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Crimsonorblue22 I heard an interview off radio 810 WHB about a week ago a little longer possibly, but there is a segment where they talk to roving reporters around the Nation, and they came to that area around the N Carolina area and they were talking about the NC State job and the reporter said that Marshal REALLY wanted the NC State job before the Mike Gottfried hire,, they ask if they thought they would come after Marshal this time, he said he thought that he would be their 1st call. - The question is, would he want it this time round?, Some was saying WHY would he want to go out there and have to but heads against N Carolina and Duke. -- we shall see. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jaybate-1.0

It wasn't meant to be an analogy, more a comparison point of how a lot of coaches tend to find themselves back where it started if they are good enough and in the position to take it. Roy ended up back at UNC even though he had a great gig at KU. Going home worked for him. Steve has a good gig at UCLA but no ties to the West and in a good position with his son moving on. Both started getting asked the question around tournament time. We'll see but I wouldn't be surprised to see headlines after UCLA's tourney run is over if he is in contact to get the IU job

I wonder if KU takes a look if Davis decides to transfer. I remember KU kept tabs on him but never offered originally. Juwan Morgan as well actually. Either one would be fine to sit a year and then be in their 4th year removed from HS ball to help fill what could be a thin KU front court. No idea if either wants to transfer, just random speculation on my part.

@bskeet said:

I know there is this perception floating around that only major conferences can win the title, but what is the logic behind that?

Very simple, go look at the list of national title winners and tell me the last time a mid major won.

@nuleafjhawk If that ends up being his mentality, Marshall will regret that decison down the raod when the what if's start entering his mind.

@Texas-Hawk-10

While it's obvious that P5 teams are much better positioned, Butler was a possession away and WSU had a real chance too.

Indiana can throw money at Marshall, but unless they are willing to make him one of the three highest paid basketball coaches in the country, I don't know that the money (and accompanying pressure) of going to Indiana trumps what he already has at WSU.

Marshall's salary was almost dead even with Crean's for last season - less than $23,000 difference in total base pay, and Marshall probably hit enough of his bonuses to out earn Crean by quite a bit this year if they were in a similar ball park.

That means Marshall would need to get Bill Self money to move to Indiana (somewhere between $4.5 and $5m to make it worth the time). That's a ton of money, but that's the offer you have to make if you're Indiana, otherwise there's no attraction for Marshall to even consider it.

Another excellent coach (Marshall) that we seem to feel good about trashing.

Sure seemed to kick our a** in the NCAA tourney, I tend to recall. We had our excuses, ad nauseam.

Seems to be an excellent coach, has taken low to no ranked guys and has won, and certainly coaches with an edge.

Marsha=big 🐟 Big 💰Big seed 🤷🏻‍♂️🤓

@HighEliteMajor

He's a great coach, but people (maybe rightfully) gravitate to the fact that he is a shit human being.

That might be a bit harsh, but I have seen him in person.

@BShark "Sh** human being?"

Easy to spew.

What, did he say something you didn't like?

@justanotherfan Mvc didn't vote him the coach of the year, but it was close so wsu still paid him his bonus.

@HighEliteMajor

He's just a dick. Have you heard him speak much? As I said it might have been a bit harsh. Maybe more correct to call him a rude person with small man syndrome. Some people are just assholes, and hey that's his right.

I don't think all coaches that beat KU are dicks or anything even. Prohm seems like a nice guy, Jamie Dixon seems alright etc...

Edit: I should add, Crean and Bruce are weeeeeeeeiiiiiiiird.

Marshall would be insane to go to an adidas program unless adidas and Nike have buried the hatchet.

@HighEliteMajor said:

Another excellent coach (Marshall) that we seem to feel good about trashing.

Sure seemed to kick our a** in the NCAA tourney, I tend to recall. We had our excuses, ad nauseam.

Seems to be an excellent coach, has taken low to no ranked guys and has won, and certainly coaches with an edge.

Really who DON'T we trash on this site except for Izzo? No one is as diplomatic as Self, I'll give him credit for that, but still. Seems weird that we bash so many other coaches. Like "Stumpy." What did he do to us? Seems like a great coach to me who is in the top 10-15 annually. I can't think of anything he's done that people couldn't accuse Self of doing the same.

@BShark They did not win. If you want mid majors in the Final Four since the field expanded, you've got 4 appearances out of 128 spots. So what sounds easier, a power conference program where 124 out of the last 128 Final Four teams have come from or a mid major where 4 out of the last 128 have made tge Final Four. I know which path I would take.

@HighEliteMajor

XCLNT coaches deserve more loathing when their excellence depends primarily on shoe brand advantage.

Marshall at an adidas major will win no more than Marshall at a Nike mid major backed by Koch money.

I think Pitino, Alford, Crean and Self are better than most all Nike coaches simply by winning a conference title with 1/2 to 3/4s the player talent/depth combination.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I'm just saying it's possible. I don't disagree, I think Marshall would be crazy to turn down Indiana, or even NC State for that matter.

@jaybate-1.0

Marshall hasn't exactly been landing great talent at WSU. He does a fantastic job with the lower ranked players he gets.

@jaybate-1.0 did you see his fit in Canada! He is insane!🤡

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

did you see his fit in Canada! He is insane!🤡

He totally lost it, over an exhibition game. That was horrifying.

@BShark Gregg Marshall is 6'2". I'm not here to defend the guy. You have thrown all of these vile insults at the man in the last 30 minutes. Just doesn't make sense. Now we hear from the peanut gallery that he's "insane." Whatever.

@BShark

Exactly, and how do you think he would be doing at Drake without the Koch thang?

@HighEliteMajor

It doesn't have to do with his height, but you are right, it's probably best if we both drop it. I think he's a good coach and I'll just leave it at that now.

@jaybate-1.0 Probably about the same as he did at Winthrop which was pretty damn good for a low major program.

@HighEliteMajor I think you might have seen the "peanut gallery's" comment out of context. @jaybate-1.0 had written "Marshall would be insane to go to an adidas program...." and I think the comment was more along the lines of evidence from that exhibition game in support of jaybate's conjecture.

In any event, I actually agree with you that the criticism of other coaches here can get over the top. Then again, I have thought the same about your posts in years past about our own coach.

Tell me, which is worse, "Marshall is insane" or "Bill Self is an idiot"? Or denigrating another poster here with the "peanut gallery" insult? You have gotten offended many times by references such as that directed at you.

I think there is a pot seeking to meet a kettle to discuss shades of black.

@mayjay I'm not biting …

And my post had nothing to do with @jaybate-1.0. That man wreaks of substance. One line sniping, with no substance, is peanut gallery stuff.

@HighEliteMajor Yours didn't, hers did. As evidenced by his name in it. Duh.

@BeddieKU23 said:

It wasn’t meant to be an analogy, more a comparison point of how a lot of coaches tend to find themselves back where it started

Ok, change my wording from analogy to what you said you meant above and then my reasoning remains the same.

@ et al

Marshall would be silly to move to an adidas contracted school in this recruiting environment. Or a UA contracted school for that matter. Unless....some deal has been worked out behind the scenes in Deep Basketball regarding Shoe Wars.

If he were the coach many here believe him to be, his chances of sustained success would be much greater at any major with a Nike contract.

People are forgetting that Indiana has not been an elite program, frankly, since Bob Knight left, and even Knight's last several years after the 1976 team were notable for him fighting corruption and so not being allowed the best recruits money could then buy. Knight won a title or two just on sheer brilliance and one or two excellent college players on a team (e.g., Alford's teams).

Indiana has never been a consistently good program during the life time of the high schoolers currently playing basketball.

Recruiting Indiana basketball under an adidas contract is about like recruiting Arkansas or Purdue under an adidas contract. Its been ages since they were considered elite programs and with adidas you better be one hot number in the minds of high schoolers, or you are never going to sign the 3-stars and 4-starts Self finds to glue together with his 1 OAD a season to stay even in the top half of a power conference.

@mayjay said:

Tell me, which is worse, “Marshall is insane” or "Bill Self is an idiot"?

Okay, I can resolve this right now.

Marshall should be called "clinically unwise" for signing with an adidas contracted school.

No, I know @mayjay and that wouldn't suffice.

Okay, Marshall would be just "unwise" to go with an adidas contracted program, because of the apparent recruiting constraints that imposes, when he could easily step up to a even a major and get the advantage of a Nike conveyor.

Marshall is a super coach. He is tough as nails, smart and ruthless. Not just any coach would have had the balls to have "provoked" Perry Ellis into viciously attacking the WSU guard's elbow with Perry's nose.

I have said for a long time that I want KU to beat the bejeezus out of Marshall (wherever he is) for what he and his Shockers did to KU, when we were down. He kicked the hell out of us and took names later.

He is a terrific coach IMHO.

But he not only beat us, he dragged us into an alley and kicked the hell out of us.

SO: WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND AND HE'S GOING TO COME AROUND AGAIN AND WHEN HE DOES, I HOPE WE CAN BEAT HIM THE WAY ROY BEAT PITINO--150 TO 60 OR SO.

I DON'T WANT ANY OUR OF OUR GUYS TO ATTACK MARSHALL'S GUYS ELBOWS WITH OUR NOSES AGAIN.

I WANT OUR GUYS ELBOWS TO BE OFFERED UP FOR ATTACK BY THEIR GUYS NOSES.

ITS NOT PERSONAL.

ITS SPORTS.

ITS BILL BALL.

YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT ANYWAY THEY WANT.

So: yea, no one's driving a wedge between @HighEliteMajor and me.

We debate vigorously enough without any assistance.

And we respect each other, especially when we differ.

Rock Chalk!

I have to agree with @HighEliteMajor. There seems to be a visceral instinct to associate personal dislike with coaching competence or lack thereof.

I don't like Calipari, I think he knows a lot more about the behind the scenes shenanigans that got players to UMass, Memphis and now Kentucky than has been proven. I don't like Coach K, I believe he is smug, arrogant and sanctimonious. I don't care one way another about Sean Miller and I don't believe he is that different than most coaches except that because of the exposure he gets, exchanges in the huddle, that are normally private, get broadcasted and vilified, even when he did not do or say anything that other coaches don't. I don't care one way or another about Marshall personally and the dislike seems to come from off-the-record coments he made about KU. He wants to play KU desperately because there is lots of upside for his program and mostly downside for KU...do I like what he said? Of course not but I do understand; he is working to give his program an edge, which is his job, and after all he is the WSU and not the KU coach...what else do you expect him to say?

Having stated that I personally do not care for the four coaches in question, there is no question that hey are all outstanding coaches and all of them probably in the top 10....I would take any of them to coach my program instead of Cuonzo, Crean or Smart or any of the media hyped coaches that are not nearly as good.

@jaybate-1.0

I seem to recall Indiana making a trip to the NCAA finals after Knight left...

I like plenty of coaches that are very good, including ones that don't coach at KU.

Are we talking about the same Gregg Marshall who got ejected from a game for charging a pair of referees?

The same guy who's been quoted saying things like:

"They've been big brother for so long and they just don't want the little brother, who's now grown up, to be able to compete with them and maybe win. They don't want to give up that superiority in the household."

or

"Look at my salary, that's not mid-major."

Maybe I'm wrong about the guy, but calling him kind of a dick with a little-man complex seems pretty accurate to me.

@KirkIsMyHinrich

Again, he is the coach at Wichita State and it is his job to promote the program...I am curious, what exactly would you expect him to say instead?

@JayHawkFanToo There's a lot classier ways to go about promoting your program than the way Marshall has chosen to promote WSU.

He very easily could've said in regards to trying to play KU that KU is the standard bearer and he'd like to see how his program stacks up against one of the best. The series ended because it got uncompetitive, but I think we can make it competitive again and it's up to Bill self to decide if he wants to renew that series because we're ready.

Same message about wanting to challenge, but doesn't sound very dickish to me.

@JayHawkFanToo he did call us chicken hawks

@Texas-Hawk-10

WSU has been trying for a while now to get the series going but KU is not bitting since there is no upside. Now they are trying to shame KU into playing them and still will not work. It is not as big a deal as it has been made out to be by the media that loves controversy.

I have pointed out before that WSU's trend is to have a few years of excellence and overachieving followed by many years of mediocrity. If Marshall leaves, WSU start the down cycle all over again.

@JayHawkFanToo You asked if there was another way Marshall could promote WSU other than how he has. I used the way he's trying to get the KU series going again as the example because there's plenty of comments by Marshall on the matter out there and he comes across like a disrespectful dick in those comments. He could very easily have taken the high road by using a similar tone and message to what I said of being complimentary of KU and wanting restart the series as a measuring stick for WSU instead of the path he chose. Does being complimentary of KU guarantee the series would've been restarted? Absolutely not, but I do guarantee Self and KU would be a lot more willing to consider it if Marshall had taken that approach.

@Crimsonorblue22

I am sure that is not the worst KU has been called by other coaches. What do you think Weber, Drew, Smart, among others, say about KU at private booster function and when speaking off the record?

@Texas-Hawk-10

That series is not happening regardless of what anyone says or doesn't say. Ok, say Marshall is a dick, like you said, does this make him a poor coach as many posters say? I think not.

@JayHawkFanToo this was on tv, I heard it

@JayHawkFanToo

Wait, who has said he is a bad coach?

@Texas-Hawk-10

Of course I realize Indiana is a top program.

All I was saying is that Marshall has a lot to consider, including quality of life issues. He's a family man so he can't just run off only for his own ambition.

He is 10-times the coach of Shaka Smart..... but they both have a similar style of playing the underdog card... and making a career off of it.

I don't think Shaka's underdog style is ever going to work at Texas. The very last thing Longhorns wants to hear is that they are underdogs!

So why will the underdog card work at Indiana? Since when does that school see themselves as zeroes in the basketball world?

@Crimsonorblue22

Yes, it was a leaked video someone recorded at a booster event where comments were supposed to be off the record.

@BShark

I will not name names but you can read some of the comments above.

@JayHawkFanToo

Everyone in here knows I want to play WSU every year. Marshall has made them a force and they play a style that always gets us in trouble in March.

But the real reason I want to play is to start a real rivalry. KSU just isn't it.

I look at the UK/UL rivalry with envy. I know we may not be able to match that, but who says we have to? I think it does a lot for our program to have a real rivalry and that is a naturally forming rivalry. These schools just don't like each other, period!

Don't want to open a can of worms... but maybe I did anyways!

@JayHawkFanToo said:

@KirkIsMyHinrich

Again, he is the coach at Wichita State and it is his job to promote the program...I am curious, what exactly would you expect him to say instead?

This is the comment I'm responding to which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the man is a good coach. You asked if there was another way he could promote WSU, and the evidence being presented at that point was in regrads to Marshall trying to restart the KU series so that's the example I went with.

All my point was is that the way Marshall is trying to restart that series by being a disrespectful dick to KU on the issue to try and bully Self into scheduling a series has no chance of working and KU not even interested in listening. All I did was provide an example of how Marshall could've taken a more respectful approach and that probably at least gets a meeting to explore the possibility of restarting the series.

Notice how nowhere in any of my posts did I say that approach would be guaranteed to restart the series, just that approach would probably make KU at least willing to listen.

How you spun me calling Marshall a dick into meaning he's a bad coach is something I can't figure out because my opinion of Marshall has nothing to do with the discussion.

@drgnslayr Marshall doesn’t play the underdog card at WSU, he plays the disrespected, chip on his shoulder card which works anywhere.

We've talked about that in regards to KU on multiple occasions, including this year with all the media attention and KCStar witch hunt.

The mentality Marshall has taken is not the underdog card.

@JayHawkFanToo nope it was after they got home from winning the nit and they were celebrating in Koch arena.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Okay.... I'm fine with your refined definition of Marshall's tactics.

Does the "disrespected chip on his shoulder" work at Indiana? Do the fans and players at Indiana feel disrespected?

I'm skeptical about most "chip" strategies at big schools. Heck... I've been screaming for years here at Kansas that we need a chip and can't get one. I feel certain that if we could use a chip, then Bill would figure out how to do it.

Indiana basketball players are not only Gods at their school, but throughout the state of Indiana. I don't see a way of turning them into feeling victimized.

I say that after years of trying to force a chip at Kansas. Years....

@Texas-Hawk-10

I was replying in general terms and based on the tenor of the thread. I did not mean to imply you personally called him a...Brannen Greene move.

@JayHawkFanToo

Yep, Knight's assistant took his guys once, and Crean had a good team for 1-2 years, and Sampson even gathered some guys if I recall correctly.

IU would be a good program to build, if the fans would ever recognize the Shoe wars recruiting constraints. A coach can have occasional deep threats there with adidas, same as Self at KU and Pitino at Ville, but the Knight loyalists MIGHT NOT even settle for what KU and Ville fans have.settled for.

@Crimsonorblue22

I saw that tape but never heard him say "chicken hawk." Does anyone have a copy where he clearly says it? I'd like to see it.

Why are we even talking about Marshall? Don't we have better things to talk...like the upcoming game in less than 2 hours.

@drgnslayr I don't know, I saw it live though. He was muttering. Texas wouldn't interview him. I heard a long time ago, before the chicken hawk incident, from an ast d-1 coach that Gregg Marshall was not highly thought of from other coaches. It had nothing to do w/coaching. I really don't care whether you like him or not. I don't.

@drgnslayr I have a feeling Marshall would have no problem playing the arrogant we're vetter than you card at Indiana if he were to go there which would play into their alumni mentality as well.

I think board rats are confusing hatred of disrespectful, bottom dealing, kick you when you're down jerks with coaching excellence.

I think Rat face, Cal, Jay Wrong and Marsha and Stumpy are very good coaches, when on a Nike teat and getting a favorable whistle. But none of them could out coach Self, Pitino, and Bo Ryan (when he was still coaching) even up. Hell, Cal couldn't even beat Self with a bunch of ringers in 2008 and barely sneaked by with 6 OADs and Self without a McD in 2012.

I hate the coaches above because they are jerks exploiting unfair advantages and engaging preemptively in dirty play on a frequent basis. Well, Cal doesn't play dirty. He just recruits slimy. And Jay? Well, he's just a jerk to opposing coaches and players.

Well, I really don't hate them, but I have a clinically strong dislike of them.

@jaybate-1.0

A lot of the so called shoe wars are based on comment made by Pitino, but taken grossly out of context, when you read the entire comments and not one sentence in isolation.

I believe I posted the entire statement for your benefit before and Pitino clearly and explicitly says that shoe brands are a non factor.

The great Willie Mosconi is quoted as saying...a good pool player with a broom stick will beat an average player with a Balabushka...likewise in basketball...a great coach with good players on Chuck Taylors will beat an average coach with better players on Nikes...up to a point, of course.

@JayHawkFanToo

I recall you posting it. And I recall being glad you posted it. And I recall interpreting it 180° opposite of how you interpreted it. I still do. Pitino appeared to be commenting with bitter irony. You took him literally. Regardless, I fail to grasp how someone that watched the three Adidas coaches I have listed recruited and compared it with the way the Nike coaches mentioned recruited since 2008 could without tongue probing deep in cheek infer that there appears to be symmetry in recruited talent distribution independent of shoe brand.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I see your point. And Indiana has been irrelevant for so long now.

@Crimsonorblue22

I heard the same thing. I do respect Marshall for building good teams... but that doesn't mean I have to like him.

I guess Marshall never feels comfortable. He's like those little dogs that constantly pant and fidget around. He carries such a personal chip all the time, it must be hard to have normal moments with him.

@jaybate-1.0

That is not my recollection. I recall you agreeing that when you read the entire statement the context is different than whe reading the one sentence that was the gist of the shoe influence argument in isolation. Of course this does not fit your ongoing shoe war narrative so I really don't expect you to remember it any other way.

@JayHawkFanToo

First, it appears already time to call bull biscuits on "on-going narratives", same as it came time for calling bull biscuits on "conspiracy theory".

"On-going narratives" is for suckers, same as "conspiracy theories."

I reject all "on-going narratives," unless scientifically proven as empirically verified fact at a 95% confidence interval. I've had it with tolerance about these kinds of weaponizations of language.

Further, I reject all "on-going narratives" attributed to me, since I know my own thoughts and can assert unequivocally that I intend to proffer no "on-going narratives." Zero. Zip.

I offer hypotheses occasionally and discuss data points and possibly related situations, if and when they arise. I also speculate, opine, do comedy, analyze a little and generally kibitz with board rats. I proffer no "on-going narratives" unless everything one posts were considered "an on-going narrative." I am quite unplanned about my own future content here. I haven't a clue what i might write tomorrow, so I know I am not crafting an "on-going narrative," intentionally. And if it's occurring randomly, well, then time and randomness will fix that.

So, to reiterate: "On-going narratives" is for suckers.

And as an aside, isn't "on-going narrative" a trendy rhetorical device (meme?) of fake news; i.e., a vernacular of purveyors of disinformation? You don't want to be lumped with that group of mind copulators. Heck, I may have thoughtlessly used the term once or twice, too. But I'm going cold turkey on it now that I see how it appears to be tending to be used recently.

Next. Hmm. You appear to mean that your recollection differs from my recollection about what it appeared to you that I once appeared to you to believe.

Hmmm again.

If you are going to claim you recollect what I meant in my mind more accurately than I do, then I don't see how you can expect to be taken seriously by me, or anyone else. It's tough enough for me to figure out what I mean sometimes. I just don't know how you could get in my mind and know more what I mean than I do? Unless some one in MK-Ultra in Langley has developed a "retroactive mind meaning" device, I just don't see how you can persuasively claim to know more what I "meant" than I do.

Similarly, anything I say in the present I have to think I know more what I "mean" than you know what I mean. And vice versa. Capice?

We can debate our positions on issues, but surely we at least still get to insist on what we mean/meant, as a point of departure.

And I reckon we get to change our minds and acknowledge doing so, too, but I am not wittingly trying to change my mind on you, and would happily say so if I were.

I understand my own bungling at communication, or some bungling on your end, could cause you to misunderstand my intended meaning. And I could inaccurately recall what I said. But surely at the end of the day I am more likely to recall what I meant than you are likely to recall what I meant, because, well, because I'm in my head and you're not and never were. You might even remember my written words more accurately (you a have time or two, but I doubt it in this case), but surely I am still more reliable an indicator as to their intended meaning, than you, regardless.

If A starts an exchange with B and A believes A knows more about what B means in B's mind, or meant in B's mind, than B does, that makes conversational exchange futile--and borderline Orwellian.

I consider hypotheses and explore possible data as situations arise and/or thoughts occur to me. I have no grand plan betrayed by "an on-going narrative."

"On-going narrative" is for suckers.

Rock Chalk!

@drgnslayr said:

I guess Marshall never feels comfortable. He’s like those little dogs that constantly pant and fidget around. He carries such a personal chip all the time, it must be hard to have normal moments with him.

Remember when he took the College of Charleston job for 24 hours, then decided he would stay at Winthrop? Like Cremins, who did that to the Gamecocks.

@mayjay

...or Donovan to the Orlando Magic...

If Stumpy was coaching a NY/NJ school he'd look perfect for an Oliver Stone movie. He just appears out of place in AZ. Marshall is not attractive, doesn't say complimentary things and we are all superficial to some extent at least subconsciously.

Disliking or not wanting a coach based on personality issues not coaching issues is very human. Weber seems like he's good at coaching up the talent he has, but he can't recruit because of his personality.

Bill Self puts off a very likeable vibe. He just seems like someone you can form an instant bond with. Calipari for all our disdain is very likeable as well. I have no idea how Coach K gets a recruit, that smug, arrogant man. But man can he coach and he sure as heck can recruit.

@dylans

Look at the kind of recruits K gets. Grayson Allen, his long lost son. HA.

@BShark His lineups look racist and very hatable. Every year.

@dylans said:

I have no idea how Coach K gets a recruit, that smug, arrogant man. But man can he coach and he sure as heck can recruit.

Maybe the message is a bit like
I only coach the best (Duke, Olympics, World Games) and don't bother with the rest. Are you "best" or "rest" ?

@ParisHawk I didn't join a frat either, so that doesn't appeal to me. If it did I'd be a Duke fan. Yuck!

@dylans Ha! That frat talk tugs me backwards some 55 years or so. I had chosen to be a frat man; then found myself engaged in a bloody fistfight on campus. Fraternity heirarchy invited me to sit for a chat, after which I volunteered to de-pledge and cart my belongings back to an independent dorm. Mutual sighs of relief...

@JayHawkFanToo .. or Altman to the Razorbacks.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Agreed. Respect your take as always, in bball and ftball. Also, I believe Marshall is a few yrs older than Bill Self, nearing 60. He may not be interested in risking getting fired from IU, as Crean just did. His pressure level at WSU is at an enviable "niche" zone.

I have total respect for his coaching both ends of the floor. His teams are motivated to play, 98% of the time. He has good recruits, just cant land MickeyDs. I know he doesnt like KU, but I ignore/tolerate that. His on court product is very good.

@chriz Marshall. Same on court product/style. Self better recruiter, but if Marshall came to KU, the name would get him better recruits. He can STILL play the disrespect card due to the East Coast media bias. The only issue is wsu fans would be burning ku flags in the streets of wichita if Marshall came to KU, & vandalizing ku cars. Riots. Hooliganism from local yokel deplorables...(lol!)

@ralster Marshall is the same age as Self (54) so if he takes a top job, it needs to be in the next couple of years. NC State filled their vacancy with the UNC-Wilmington coach and Washington just hired Syracuse's coach in waiting. I gotta believe at this point that if Indiana can lure Alford home, Marshall is their second choice. If not, next year is supposed to be Jim Boehiem's final season so Syracuse should be open next year. We also never know when Coach K or Roy will have to retire and with Marshall's ties to the Carolina region, I'd have to imagine he'd be a coach of interest at both schools if either program goes outside the family to replace those two.

@Texas-Hawk-10

Wow. You think UNC and Duke would offer Marshall?

So you basically think Marshall is at the very top of college coaches?

I still have a hard time agreeing with the logic that Marshall could go to an elite school and make his style work.

I just don't believe he can maintain the chip. That chip he carries not only is his tool in coaching both practices and games... it is a huge part of his recruiting, too. I don't think his style rubs right with McDs AAs.

WSU is the perfect school for Marshall. They have always been the school with the chip anyways. I remember back when they had Smithson and ended up on probation. I remember one of the charges related to one of their recruits, Ozell Jones (from California) who didn't own a coat and walked to school in blizzards. Someone saw him freezing and gave him an old used coat. It wasn't even a booster. That ended up being one of their violations they were crucified on.

Another thing... players at WSU are not treated like Gods. That school doesn't have the "college feel" (socially). So their players stay a lot more humble.

@drgnslayr If Duke or UNC are open in the next 2 years and they look outside of Coach K or Roy's trees, Marshall would be a contender partly because he's from the Carolina's. I do picture him fitting in better at Duke than UNC because of his personality.

@ralster said:

& vandalizing ku cars

Don't need Marshall coming here or WSU fans for that. We have it covered......

@drgnslayr I also see a lot of arrogance in Marshall as well so I think he would play up that part of his personality if he were at a major program, especially a Duke type program where that's a part of their perception.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I don't think his personality would fit w/alumni. He lacks social skills!

@Crimsonorblue22 I think it fits much better with Duke than UNC. I know a couple of Duke alums and they are among the most smug and arrogant people I know. I see a lot of that in Marshall as well. I think that's where a lot of tantums stem from, basically a "how dare you make a bad call against my team" type mentality that fits in perfectly with Duke.