🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I went back and looked at 247 Sports Top 247 recruits, and was wondering how the Big 12 fared as a whole in top 100 recruits for 2017. I guess the only word I could find to accurately describe it would be pitiful. 7 top 100 recruits for the entire conference. Iowa St has 1. WVU has 1. OU has 1. Tejas has 2, and we have 2. 5 Big 12 teams don't have a Top 100 recruit. The slimy SEC has simply dominated recruiting like no other conference. 22 top 100 recruits, with a good potential of several more signing late. I know they have more teams, and more wallets than the Big 12, but 3 times as many seems extraordinary. At this rate, we might win the Big 12 for the next 30 years. Here's the breakdown:

1- SEC - 22

2- ACC - 19

3- Pac 12 - 17

4- Big Ten - 11

5- Big East - 8

6-Big 12 - 7

There are 3 B12 teams ranked in the preseason Top 25 : WVU at 22, Faylor at 9, and KU at number 1. We certainly have had more in the past. Now, I realize our transfers had a direct impact on these numbers, but if you take KU completely out of the equation, we're still looking at 9 teams signing 5 players. The big question is: have we morphed into the SEC, where Kentucky and Florida were the only good teams for years? Do we have a shot at winning the conference for the next generation consecutively? And how does Louisville feel now about being rejected by the B12, and having to settle to play in the ACC? (I know how I feel about it. )Final question: are we going to wind up having to follow the lead of the Shlockers, and find a better conference when the lack of talent in the Big 12 drives down the RPI? Down to the point where if we were to lose in the conference tourney, we'd be on the bubble due to our weak sisters in the conference?

Yeah the $EC started giving a shit about basketball recently.

@KUSTEVE

I guess we can join the AAC... they claim they will soon become the 6th power conference -

Power conference? American Athletic plans big push on idea ↗

But seriously... The Big 12 conference is run more like a 4H rabbit show than a major D1 conference. I've never seen any organization exist strictly off a reactive demeanor. At this point, they need to become completely proactive... but I'm not holding my breath.

First.. they need to hire a media marketing company to help build their strategy to move forward.

Second... we can't take any more Texas teams. 4 is the max. Otherwise.. we just rename our league for what it is, "Texas 12 Conference" and then embrace becoming a mid-major-styled league.

Third... kill the Longhorn Network. It has devastated our conference more than anything else.

Texas Longhorns football is the key for Big 12 athletics. The decline of UT football has coincided with the overall decline of the Big 12. It has spilled over into other spirts as well.

I don't care what anyone's feelings about UT are, the reality is the conference goes as the UT football program goes.

@drgnslayr When UT and OU blocked Louie from becoming a B12 member, I knew the conference was going to be all about OU, and most especially UT, and not for the overall good of the conference. The B12 was over then, imo. So, will it be the Big 10, the Pac 12, even the ACC? What conference will KU be a member of in 5 years?

Be as it may...the conference is still strong. The very early 2018 Bracketology ↗ has 7 teams in and 2 more in the first 4 out and the next 4 out groups. Amazing how well the conference does with the talent it gets.

@JayHawkFanToo that's because the B12 has the best coaches top to bottom of any conference, and consequently league parity. And our ten coaches give the ACCs top ten a run for their money.

@KUSTEVE When I saw the title of of your post, I literally had just read an article where the Big 12 had the lowest number of players drafted from the Power 5 conferences in the NFL draft, and less than the AAC too (yes, the AAC).

Only the most hard core of deniers will deny that Big 12 basketball is nothing more than KU and the pretenders.

KU should be working hard to get into the Big 10. This conference realignment stuff will come up again to be sure.

We tabled expansion last fall. Of course, the Big 12 was a step behind and lost out on very attractive additions like Louisville. Huge miss.

The Big 12 dying is a matter of time - unless there is some major shifting that allows a rebirth.

@JayHawkFanToo But how well does the Big 12 really do? March exposes the Big 12 over and over -- and over time, when every other conference seems to succeed somehow and the Big 12 flounders, that's strong evidence. Non-con wins in November, while nice do discuss, simply mean exactly what they are -- wins in November. Anyway, it is what we have. At least for now.

Yeah, but we got the coaches, right?

Who has the most transfers? KU is getting some nice transfers, so that plays into it. Not sure why they're coming to KU instead of the coasts, but we'll take them.

We ARE the Midwest, like it or not, and we're an unstable conference as mentioned above, so that doesn't help us. I'm starting to think we should be thankful to be in as many elite eights as we have. Not surprising that we don't know what to do when we see real talent and size. (We see it annually at Baylor but the coaching negates it.)

I just don't see how Kansas benefits from jumping conferences. In my opinion, it becomes the very last straw.

I believe we should put our efforts into becoming a stronger conference.

@KUSTEVE

Thanks for bringing the bad tasting medicine.

We needed to take it before we got so sick we died without a fight.

Bottom line?

TPTB want only four power conferences, not five.

Football needs 4 for the play off, not 5.

KU has to pro-act, not react.

@KUSTEVE we have 4 incoming top 100 level recruits, not 2.

Unless you're saying Cunliffe and Newman are not in fact top 100 talent.

It's good for us if the rest of the world wants to make stats that don't pertain to how we play the game. I get that they represent something, but they do not represent a dirth of incoming KU talent.

@chriz We looked shocked over how athletic Oregon was.

@approxinfinity You can count them. I'll give you 4. So, we have 4 in the top 100, and the rest of the conference has 5. Out of 9 teams. We are chugging along, the rest of the conference...not so much.

@KUSTEVE Especially remarkable give that UK alone has 6! in the top 25 and 2 more in the top 100.

It's tough, other than the Texas schools there is not another recruiting "hotbed" in the entire Big-12 area. So everyone recruits out of state really for players.

@BeddieKU23 Basketball recruiting is just such a different game than football recruiting because of prep schools and the AAU circuit. Kids move around so much for basketball that where they're originally from frequently has minimal impact on recruiting. Most of these prep schools are located along the coasts so the EST and PST programs tend to have advantages in recruiting those kids because they can see those kids play in season more frequently. There's not a lot of prep schools in the CST and the most prolific one is one that rarely has players make it through the Eligibility Center.

@KUSTEVE These numbers are a real jolt. Thanks for the timely post. Helps to explain Bill Self's reaching out to proven transfers. Wily William might not get, or even want, a bevy of annual top-rated freshmen; but he has found a way to bring in top-100 recruits, most of whom will spend months learning his system and style before they suit up.

I said it last summer when the league decided not to expand, its only a matter of time before the sh** hits the fan. The Big 12 also was last of the power 5 in NFL draft picks as well and second from last the past 5 years. 1 FF in the last 5 years in BB and 1 CFB in 3 years. Why we didn't add Louisville when we had the chance with Cincinnati I'll never know. By the year 2022 the B12 will be a memory, hopefully the B10 wants us is all I can say.

@approxinfinity

Cunliffe and Newman may once have been Top 100 recruits, but...

Neither signed with elite majors.

And neither did particularly well at the lesser majors they signed at.

And Self apparently could not get either one to sign with KU before they chose lesser majors over KU.

Players like Newman, the Lawsons, Cunliffe, Whitman and Moore are hungry to play for a perennial top-10 D1 program, looking for a breath of new life and a boost toward their postponed NBA dreams. Not likely to produce a string of adjustment problems which we recently saw from one of the very best freshman recruits in the Bill Self Jayhawk era. As brilliant as he was in most games this season, Josh's learning curve involving fouling, technicals and offcourt mayhem had to be quite stressful for the coaching staff. Gotta hope that these older transfers aren't inclined toward, or at least have outgrown, such diversions.

Oops, I forgot Coleby. If he stays....

@KUSTEVE

I do not even believe we are chugging along.

Our roster talent is sliding.

The slide in KU roster talent has apparently been for awhile, and likely will be for awhile longer, masked not only by Self's exceptionally resourceful coaching, but by the reputed declining level of talent in the B12.

The B12 is being hollowed out kind of like the American economy was hollowed out.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I tend to agree the Texas is the key to our conferences success because of their size and the media market they have. The trouble is with UT football is they suck and really always have since the B12 was formed outside of 05 and 09.(OU 10 titles to Texas's 3) The big 12 is really KU and the rest in basketball, OU and the rest in football. Texas being even remotely relevant in anything is most due to the media market. They are pretty much good at Volleyball right now and that's it. I just looked it up and Texas finished in the lower half of every single B12 race for this school year besides women's BB, VB and soccer with 0 conference titles. Ou much better all around athletic school, power in gymnastics (2017 NC), Softball and Football. Its just crazy to think that results mean nothing just your fair weather football fans...

@jaybate-1.0 ya your right they didn't sign at an elite major. BUT as far as Newman's part he was a top 5 recruit and he could of signed just about anywhere. - -The thing is he Choose to sign with Mississippi St because if I remember right that was home for him right? -as far as not doing that well, one of his biggest reasons for transferring if I remember was they played him out of position and he wasn't happy, just wasn't happy with the whole scenario. - - Just a case where that didn't work out, isn't because maybe he wasn't as good as projected or anything look for him to have a really good year. As far as Cunliffe don't know on him but Newman like I said was and is a stud. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@DCHawker Not really remarkable as Calipari does what he does. If he doesnt get at least 3-4 playable top10-top15 guys each year, his system will tank that year.

@jayballer54 right on. I don't think there's anyway Newman isn't still a top 100 talent and very doubtful that Cunliffe isn't as well considering he was top 30 last year with no major injury (right?). I agree that Self is being resourceful @jaybate-2-0 . I disgree that it is something to wring hands about or that it puts us at a disadvantage. I'm excited about this approach.

Newman Mickey-D avg 13ppg as a freshman at MissState, playing out of position as PG instead of SG. Kind of like EJ forced to do. But 13ppg alone as a Div1 freshman, even in the Bill Self structure would be called a starter. But, Newman gets to learn system, get stronger by Hudy, and comes in at his comfortable position, and now with that chip on his shoulder, something to prove. All good for '17-18...

KUSTEVE said:

1- SEC - 22

2- ACC - 19

3- Pac 12 - 17

4- Big Ten - 11

5- Big East - 8

6-Big 12 - 7

I drew the line in your the list to make it easier to see the "Battle for the fourth Super Conference."

Two below the line will become Mid-majors. Big 12 leads the race to the mid-major position.

When the B10 picks up a couple of cherries from the Big East, it will pop.. and that will be the end.

KU needs to get out of this sinking ship at the right time, in the right way.

Much easier said than done.

This was something we started discussing a few weeks ago when talking about why the Big 12 has less postseason success than other major conferences. I'm glad @KUSTEVE has brought this topic back because it is important to the future of KU hoops and the Big 12 overall.

First, let's just cut to the chase and admit that the Big 12 needs to add Memphis and Cincinnati to the conference immediately. That gets the group back up to 12 and also introduces some new recruiting territory into the conference footprint.

Next, let's admit that while the Big 12 has some very good game coaches, the conference lacks any elite level recruiters other than Self. In fact, I would go so far as to say most of the coaches in conference are below average recruiters. That's a killer. It introduces parity into the conference because the talent level is pretty equal across the board, and it helps the conference look good early in the season because the Big 12 maintains continuity season to season because most schools aren't losing tons of players early, but when plays need to be made in March, the Big 12 doesn't often have the players to do that.

Let's have a look at some NBA mock drafts to see where the talent is:

Big 12 - Jackson, Jarrett Allen and Jawun Evans are the only Big 12 players listed in the first round.

SEC - Fox and Monk from Kentucky are the only SEC players.

Big 10 - Anunoby and Swanigan are the only Big 10 guys.

ACC - We have Jayson Tatum, Johnathan Isaac, Dennis Smith, Justin Jackson, John Collins, Luke Kennard, Tyler Lydon, and Harry Giles. That's 8 guys.

Pac 12 - Fultz and Ball are anticipated to go 1-2. Markkanen is a top 10 guy. Ike Anigbogu is here, along with Rabb and TJ Leaf. That's six guys.

Looking back, last year the Big 12 had 2 first rounders, the SEC had 5, the Pac 12 had 4, the ACC had 4 and the Big 10 had 2. Notice a trend?

Big 12 gets less talent in, puts less talent out and as a result, can't seem to get over the hump in March, while the SEC and ACC consistently bring talent in, which allows their teams to run deep into March even if we believe the Big 12 is superior in some way.

How many non-UK draft picks does the SEC typically have? Of course this all could change soon, as the SEC has become way more serious about competing in basketball.

@BShark

They usually do okay. Arkansas, Florida, LSU and Vanderbilt all have had picks in the last few years. Usually, its a couple from UK, then one or two from other schools in the conference. Last year, for instance, LSU had Simmons and Vandy had a couple guys. The SEC has more take a game over type talents (look at South Carolina and Arkansas from this year). That helps them make runs when those guys get hot. The Big 12 lacks that, which is why it's hard to make deep postseason runs.

Let's keep in mind that of all the major basketball conferences, only the Big 12 and the Big East have 10 teams, all the other have more. ACC 15 teams, Big 10, SEC and A10 14 teams, PAC 12 and American 12 teams.

@justanotherfan

Iwundu is a first round pick in most every mock draft and with a good combine Motley can move from borderline to solid first round. CBS has Mason in the first round at #29. Too much variability outside the top 15 to state with certainty what the actual breakdown will be; we will have to wait until the actual draft for that.

@JayHawkFanToo

I'm going with consensus. If Iwundu gets in, that probably hurts Mason, Motley and Evans. The Big 12 has four guys that are borderline first/second round picks. Chances are that as the first round dwindles down, all four of those guys don't get picked. If Evans goes, Mason probably doesn't. If Mason goes, Evans probably won't. If Iwundu get picked, that means teams are likely going for more wings, so a guy like Motley falls down the board. If Motley gets selected, that means Iwundu probably sticks on the board because there are better wings out there. The lack of true lottery talent in the conference will probably keep all four of those guys from going in the first round because one moving up almost certainly moves another one of them down.

I am not sure that any of you have checked out the 2018 mock draft but 5 of our guys are projected to be drafted. Doka could be a first rounder if he stays healthy and he is not even listed.

@Statmachine We will have NBA type talent at all 5 starting positions for the first time in a really long time. This is a better constructed roster than people realize.

Although, I do get what @KUSTEVE is saying. Problem is and always will be that when UT sucks and can't even recruit Texas than the Big XII will look weak.

UT is swimming in cash, yet they can't field a good basketball team. Shaka was a bad hire. With all the money in the world, they couldn't steal a Sean Miller from Arizona?

UT athletics is a mess. Until they get their shit together the Big XII will suffer. Especially in the next round of TV negotiations.

@Kcmatt7 I think the talent level at UT is perfectly fine. The fact of the matter they have the talent that SOME posters on this board drool about. Top 100 talent that will stay four years. They have 10 or so 4 star guys on their roster! What more can you ask for?

Kcmatt7 said:

@Statmachine We will have NBA type talent at all 5 starting positions for the first time in a really long time. This is a better constructed roster than people realize.

Although, I do get what @KUSTEVE is saying. Problem is and always will be that when UT sucks and can't even recruit Texas than the Big XII will look weak.

UT is swimming in cash, yet they can't field a good basketball team. Shaka was a bad hire. With all the money in the world, they couldn't steal a Sean Miller from Arizona?

UT athletics is a mess. Until they get their shit together the Big XII will suffer. Especially in the next round of TV negotiations.

It's a great roster, with GREAT practice depth because of the transfers.

Yeah UT...I wouldn't mind if they were better. If losing the conference title a couple times to UT meant the league would improve in general and KU would be better tested for March I'd take that.

Statmachine said:

@Kcmatt7 I think the talent level at UT is perfectly fine. The fact of the matter they have the talent that SOME posters on this board drool about. Top 100 talent that will stay four years. They have 10 or so 4 star guys on their roster! What more can you ask for?

They could ask for a coach that has a clue. They had 2 NBA players last year which isn't bad, but no PG.

@BShark I think their Coach was a good hire BUT they could do better given they have the resources to do so. If Smart doesn't produce next year he will be looking for another job. Outside of the Blue Blood schools what coach would be willing to take the Coaching Job. Not who would they hire but who would take the job?

@Statmachine

The talent deficiency from Duke to UNC is none.

The talent deficiency from UCLA to Arizona is none.

The talent deficiency from KU to Texas, its a lot. Despite what their recruiting rankings say.

Just go look through the top players that have come out of the state of Texas and gone to Kentucky lately. KU and the Big XII as a conference need UT to defend it's own recruiting grounds. And they aren't right now.

2 summers ago Smart was hired after the 2015 class was pretty much recruited. He retained most of the players on UT's roster, and even added 2 four star top 100 guys to the roster with Mack and Roach. Last year he landed on of the top 5 star guys in the state of Texas and the other 5 star guy went over seas. He also added Andrew Jones who is testing the NBA waters and was invited to the combine. He is in the running for 2 more 5 star guys and already signed four 4 star guys. I would say if he can make it happen this year on the court with HIS guys that he recruited then the top guys in the state will have a different view of UT. He has only been there 2 years and signed 8 four star guys and a 5 star. I personally think things will come along and on a side note UT is possibly building a new basketball facility.

@JayHawkFanToo great point. Like advanced metrics for stats, need a top player / conf team stat. Or top picks ratio to total players in each league.

@jayballer54

Ya know, there are two kinds of studs among recruits.

The kind that produce.

And the kind that produce excuses.

If Malik produced excuses staying home at Mississippi State, because didn't like playing out of position, then he will really be prone to produce excuses at KU. Self makes almost everyone play out o position part, or all of their careers at KU. IMHO, Self is taking a bigger risk on Malik, than he would be taking on a freshman ranked as high as Malik was when he was an incoming freshman. And the reason Self is taking that risk is that he couldn't sign another highly ranked incoming freshman with Malik's possible roles, so he took the risk on Malik, and he hoped to offset that risk with working with Malik a year before he had a chance to prove he could produce more than still more excuses.

Cliff Alexander and Diallo were studs that were highly ranked too. But they had millions of excuses why they didn't produce. It did not help them be producers by coming to KU. And they have been mediocre at best after leaving.

You have to be very careful about assuming that studs produce.

Studs fool us a lot of the time.

Studs "could" produce.

That is the attraction of studs.

But many don't.

And once they don't one place, the chances of them producing and living up to expectations at another place is probably even less.

We have, or should have, sharply lower expectations for Malik.

Tarik Black was an exception, not a rule. And even he was not a monster producer for KU.

Malik is a risk until he actually produces something other than the excuses he produced at Mississippi State.

Remember, Malik is different from BenMac.

BenMac was the real deal. He was signed as a Freshman. The only reason he had to set out was transcript issues. The guy could have produced from Day 1.

Malik proved at Mississippi State that he was not as nearly good as his OAD hype.

The question now is: with a year of practice, can he at least produce. We're not even expecting him to be a TAD. Being a TAD would be a surprise.

KU has to get more real deals that produce--guys like Josh Jackson--and fewer guys that produce excuses.

Malik can definitely help us, same as Tarik Black did help us. Malik can even turn into a TAD and surprise us. But the probability is he will take a couple seasons to be really accomplished, if he CAN stop producing excuses and start producing.

KU needs more real deals to seriously compete for rings.

Give Self three Josh Jacksons and a complement of Malik-grade transfers and he will win you some rings the same way Cal, Roy and Coach K have. Their ring teams have tended to be loaded, relative to the competition. All of their ring teams had more talent than last year's KU team. Board rats that focus on UConn's ring team under Ollie are not mastering the obvious; that UConn team was the exception to the rule. Might last year's KU team have done what UConn did? Under perfect circumstances, yes. But perfect circumstances come along rarely at, at this late point in Self's career, Self could easily never win another ring if he has to keep competing at such a disadvantage in talent and depth.

The Malik grade transfers without the three real deals mean Self will use smoke and mirrors and find a way to the high 20s or low 30s in the Ws, if he has an OAD have a good season and another player have a career year, but then get overmatched by the Elite Eight, or sometime in the Final Four.

You've just got to have so much talent to get to the Final Four and even more to survive and win it.

KU has to get beyond being Tulsa on Steroids.

@Statmachine Shaka Smart will not be gone if UT struggles next year. Their level of care is pretty low which is why they've been trying to build a new arena for about 4 years now and still haven't found a site last I was aware.

With Tom Herman, UT is all in on restoring their football program and really could not care less about the basketball program right now.

@jaybate-1.0 I think you are in for a bi surprise. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG

Shaka watch continues...

http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/the-big-12-isnt-breaking-up-but-perception-of-the-league-continues-to-sink/ ↗ ↗

Yeah football needs to improve.

@jayballer54

It will not be a surprise to me, if Malik does well quickly.

It will be a lesser probability than Josh Jackson doing well coming true.

Do you see the distinction?

It's clear that Self thought there was an opportunity for Malik to be a player still.

It's clear Malik has talent at KU, same as it was clear he had same at MSU.

So: it won't be a surprise.

It will be less probable that he produces successfully.

My recurring point is: should Self at KU, an elite major, have to be dealing with such players on such a frequent basis?

What is the problem?

Why can't he sign enough OAD and 5-star freshmen to keep the cupboard full?

What is stopping him?

Why the anomalous and apparently rising dependence on transfers?

If Malik succeeds, I will be pleased, not surprised.

And I will wonder why Self couldn't have signed an OAD, or 5-star freshman instead.

Rock Chalk!!

BShark said:

Yeah football needs to improve.

It's not so much that you're wrong...

Consistency of winning at football hasn't improved for over a century and KU sails happily onward and upward, as a university and as a winning basketball program.

....It's the way you say it.

😄

@jaybate-1.0

He just signed Billy Preston, a OAD and 5 star recruit..

More and more kids just don't care where they play, as long as they get what they want.

That's why a kid like Marcus Garrett has to be appreciated because he actually gives a crap where he's playing next year and doesn't care about earning his playing time. We are so lucky to have snagged him before others had a chance.

Newman was supposed to be a OAD and we are extremely lucky to have gotten him 2nd time around.

5 star transfers have three years college experience, two in the system. 5 star OADs have 9 months in the system. Usually no summer workouts either. So there are some advantages. Team cohesion will be better and hopefully the plays wont be as vanilla as last season incorporating oad Josh.

@jaybate-1-0

I wasn't even talking about KU football, though that would be nice. @KUSTEVE posted an article about the quality of football in the Big 12. If the Big 12 is to keep going, football needs to improve. Especially Texas and Oklahoma.

The thing about 5 FR is they typically don't stick around unless they disappoint relative to expectations. Notable exceptions for kids like Perry who have an NBA deficiency. Give Self mostly 2-4 year 4s please.

@BShark

No, no, you're talking about the Neo Southwest Conference, not the Big 12/10.

I didn't embrace the Transfer U angle at first, but I am warming up to it. 3 3rd year guys inserted into the lineup next year. 3rd year 5 star inserted into the lineup this year. I'll take those guys over the OADs every time. The last 5 stars that made it to their 3rd year were Perry and Wayne, and that worked out very well for us.

@KUSTEVE

Also a bit of bird in the hand too. KU is well positioned for 2019 but outside of a few recruits maybe not so much in 2018. Having 4* players on board mitigates the risk. Of course, all you need is a few recruits, so let's hope the staff closes well.

It's interesting to see the Big10 on that list of leagues that are seeing less talent. I think the league is in a down time for coaches. Their most successful coaches of the 2000's are gone except Izzo. Ryan, Self, Tubby and even Matta seems to have lost his recruiting mojo. I don't want to include Beihlein on that list because I've always thought he wasn't as good as people thought. Crean sucked, Iowa hasn't had anyone significant, PSU is a dumpster fire, Rutgers blows, Maryland is ok. But this basketball league that is 'supposed' to be dominating the national scene hasn't won a title since 2000. Sure there's been lots of teams close, interesting at least to note that Illinois in 05, Michigan in 13 and Wiscy in 15 all were very close but in my view got officiated away from beating ACC teams.

But the talent drop off is real in the Big10. It's no longer the league of superstars. MSU has kept that up a little bit of course, but really no else has. There's still good to nearly great teams. But it's a league that is decidedly trending downward.

But for me it all comes down to KU. OUR talent is still there. OUR amazing coach is still there. OUR chance to win it all every year is still there, and believe me WE will win it again. We've been very close the past several years. Led the nations regular season rankings and have been top seeded seemingly every year since we won it all in 2008.

Now could our league be better which might sharpen us for the dance? Maybe. But seemingly SEC teams are in the final 4 every year, and their league doesn't offer up nightly challenges to sharpen them.

But mark it down, save this post, bookmark it @approxinfinity because I want my props. None of this discussion will matter when KU wins another championship the next year or two. I'm already planning on the celebration.

@jaybate-1.0 There is a point you brought up which I agree. I guess the way I come across just hits wrong with people. Guess my way isn't as -can't even think of a phrase that fits But I agree and have brought it up - -only to pretty much get laced by a few.

My point also my question is pretty much like you said WHY are we missing on so many OAD'S - -5 star? - - what's wrong? - -why we not able to close?

I've had my on theories - -what's the word? synopsis I'm sure that's not how it's spelled - -but know the meaning - -
' it's a educated guess" - - Sometimes I think we may get to feeling to good about ourselves on a player and where we stand - -thinking after we have hit him hard and are convinced it's done he is coming - -then we lose contact fail to stay in touch, - -main while back at the Ranch as is the case in any sport until that name is on the line he remains open bait to the other schools still hounding him, throwing any kind of negative garbage about us to him. - -Him hearing from them - NOTHING from us. hmmmm what's going on he thinking - why am I not hearing form these guys any more?

I feel sometimes we have multi scholarships and we end up maybe focusing TO MUCH in one a particular player losing sight of another which posses the same athletic ability , so we zero in on the one and in the main time we lose out on the other because he is receving better info and whatever from others - -then the kicker we lose out on the one we have put ALL our focus on. - -So now were screwed we lost BOTH. - Which in turn puts us in a scramble mode and hence the transfers - -de- commits - -& graduate transfers at the last. seems like the last two - -three years this is starting to become an re- occurring scenario.

I just feel that on ALOT of these guys we are JUST NOT FINISHING - -not closing out, getting them to make that commit - -sign early. You got the door open - -your in the house - -your on the couch, close the deal - -stay on these kids - -keep the pressure on, these days you just have to, as competitive as the College recruiting is these days - you blink - -and BAM. - -Not closing, that's what my gut tell me - -not finishing.

You can come up with all kinds of theories as to why. Shoe companies - - friends - -to stiff of .competition but the bottom line is like you say yes we have missed on quite a few OAD'S. - got a couple but compared with Duke - -UK - - ummm not so much.

I'm sorry but I will go to my death bed and be pushing up lilly's before you convince me that either one of those schools are that much better then KU. - - People can say OH well they want to go there because of tradition National Championships. - Well HOW did they get those championships in the first place? - -well I'll tell you where it started - -by recruiting the 5 star to those programs - -being able to close. - I dunno just frustrates me so with that I for sure agree wonder why. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

KUSTEVE said:

I didn't embrace the Transfer U angle at first, but I am warming up to it. 3 3rd year guys inserted into the lineup next year. 3rd year 5 star inserted into the lineup this year. I'll take those guys over the OADs every time. The last 5 stars that made it to their 3rd year were Perry and Wayne, and that worked out very well for us.

Bingo!

Cunliffe- 2nd yr 4 star as well.

And the next year, adding 43ppg, 20 rbg, 9 apg, 3 spg, 2.5 bpg among the 3 sit-outs. All a year to bond and practice together on the practice squad.. Fans will get over this quickly once they see them all in uniform

@jayballer54

it's easy to remember the misses and forget the one's we do get for granted.. We are always going to miss on guys, maybe even some we should get. This is 2017 where many of these top kids don't care about what school they attend anymore

Senior Graham is back - that scared the top PG's away.

Newman- everyone knows Malik, nobody wanted to compete for his spot.

Vick/Svi/Cunliffe- We got Cunliffe Mid-Semester luckily as insurance for Svi's pending decision (Sam- Top 40ish kid out of HS). Vick has been a long-range NBA prospect since he step foot on campus. Weren't getting a OAD wing this cycle with those guys on the roster.

PF- We missed here (Ayton obviously), but went with plan B - OAD Billy Preston.. We closed on him.

C- Doke- Everybody knows Doke couldn't leave so a high ranked C was never going to happen.

Meanwhile we got Garrett, a player so many programs never even saw. Ends up Texas Player of the Year, Top 40ish prospect on most boards. That's called stealing right there..

Whitman will be solid here, mature game, can score on the block. What's not to like about a polished post player coming here?

The point is, other then PF we didn't have a sure-fire open starting spot for these OAD kids. And we still ended up with a OAD at the position anyway. While we missed and the misses are highly public one's, we still have a great roster lined up for next season..

BeddieKU23 said:

KUSTEVE said:

I didn't embrace the Transfer U angle at first, but I am warming up to it. 3 3rd year guys inserted into the lineup next year. 3rd year 5 star inserted into the lineup this year. I'll take those guys over the OADs every time. The last 5 stars that made it to their 3rd year were Perry and Wayne, and that worked out very well for us.

Bingo!

Cunliffe- 2nd yr 4 star as well.

And the next year, adding 43ppg, 20 rbg, 9 apg, 3 spg, 2.5 bpg among the 3 sit-outs. All a year to bond and practice together on the practice squad.. Fans will get over this quickly once they see them all in uniform

What was Self going to do, not fill the roster with talent after missing a few targets?

@BShark I would classify Dedric as a 5 star, although he was ranked as a 4 star originally.

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark I would classify Dedric as a 5 star, although he was ranked as a 4 star originally.

In terms of his impact definitely. He will likely be more productive than any 2018 post KU could realistically add.

BShark said:

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark I would classify Dedric as a 5 star, although he was ranked as a 4 star originally.

In terms of his impact definitely. He will likely be more productive than any 2018 post KU could realistically add.

I think we can say that's a fact Jack. Who knows the last time a Elite program was able to gain a 20 & 10 guy with NBA potential. It might even be true to say its never happened before. Outside of Bagley being some unguard-able phenom in College, your right KU wasn't going to land someone who could make the impact Dedric will

@BeddieKU23

Bagley is basically unguardable, but I'll believe KU is in it if he signs with KU. Arizona or UK seems to be the word.

@BShark

In HS yes, but in College its always different. He does look like he will be a man among-st boys wherever he plays. Definitely seems like AZ or Kentucky will be his destination

@BeddieKU23

True we can't be 100% on how he will translate. I'd rather have him than not though.

@jaybate-1-0 Could it be that the embargo is Self-inflicted? Perhaps Bill is fed up with the the whole sordid system and kissing the heiny's of prima-Donna 17-18 year old OADs. He wants tough guys who are not afraid to compete, work hard, and earn what they get. Maybe he would rather have 2nd or 3rd year guys with some muscle, experience, and time spent into the toughening box who will come in and eat nails for him versus OADs who are protecting the merch and operating at 80% capacity. I want Frank's and Perry's and vick's. Not Selby, Alexander, Oubre, and , yes Wiggins.

@Fightsongwriter Self loved wiggs, oubre, embiid and josh. Throw in ben Mac. I'm sure doke will be in that group.

@Fightsongwriter

I'm willing to say it's complicated and there may be several drivers, but...

If it were Self-inflicted, why would they spend so much time recruiting guys they don't want?

Did any one else see where Mohamed Bamba committed to UT?

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19410643/mohamed-bamba-change-everything-texas-longhorns-shaka-smart ↗

@wissox Good post! It reminds me also of some good fortune also needed. Imagine if we were playing Oregon with Udoka giving us 15-20min in that game? What if Bragg never fell thru the floor this season? We had no post game, other than a smoke & mirrors version (interpret: carefully orchestrated, what we could and could not do with Lucas). But we got exposed in the Dance. Self's greatness got us that far, but a fundamentally flawed team will get exposed in the Dance, most of the time.

2008 Jayhawks had no weaknesses. But still almost got felled by a bad shooting night vs Davidson. Or even to Memphis.

2012 had no depth, and were slow starting team, comeback kids, and that caught up with them. They likely would have beat any other team than KY.

My biggest focus is trying to understand where each KU team is at as they head into the big Dance. We have to be honest with ourselves about our own team, all the while of course still hoping that we get some luck and some breaks to go all the way and win it all, regardless of what a team's defects may be in any given year. Because we are a 1- or 2-seed almost every year, I gotta think we will get our lucky run, just about any year now...!

@Statmachine We definitely did! I hope Shaka can keep the studs rolling through. Big XII needs him to.

Shaka still has a lot to prove in the conference. So a 1yr freshman center leaves TX for the pros, now to be replaced with another 1yr freshman center. How has balance changed?

JhwkrRedLegs said:

Shaka still has a lot to prove in the conference. So a 1yr freshman center leaves TX for the pros, now to be replaced with another 1yr freshman center. How has balance changed?

Nothing has changed. Texas will be middle of the pack probably.

@BShark

Bamba is supposed to be an upgrade over Allen who was a very good player for the Longhorns. It will really depend on whether Andrew Jones returns and how well Matt Coleman develops. Texas has two other top 100 bigs coming so the front line is covered so the key will be the play of the guards.

Texas will probably have the most talent in the conference after KU and any thing short of a top 3 finish will be an underachievement, which I think Smart will manage to do one more time.

@JayHawkFanToo

I'm not high on Coleman, esp as a frosh.

Jones returning would definitely put them in should finish top 3 territory.

Shaka is definitely bringing in a lot of talent but like you I don't think he will do great with it.

@JayHawkFanToo It all depends on their guard play. They had a stout front line last year, but still finished with their worst record in decades. Their guard play was terrible last year.

Andrew Jones of Texas is returning to school. Big for them.

Jevon Carter also returning for West Virginia. Forgot he even entered the draft.

Now only if KU could get good news from Svi with the same type of situation.

@BeddieKU23 I just don't see who would draft him at this point. He can't shoot in games. He has average to poor measurables.

His best option is to come back to school and shoot 50+% from trey. Prove that he has the floor of a 3-point role guy with some potential upside as he is a 6'7 shooting guard who can be a a mismatch against smaller 2's if he can ever learn to finish in the lane efficiently.

I think Svi still has the potential to be the shooting guard version of a guy like Chandler Parsons. No uber-athlete, but athetic enough and a good enough shooter to set up the drive. Finishing in the lane is key though.

@Kcmatt7

I would assume you were talking about Jones right?

Looked pretty darn good against KU last season. Lots of reasons to think he'll flourish with another season, and he did get better as the season went on. Was in double figures in all but 4 Big-12 games. He's easily their go-to on offense this year

Andrew Jones had a slow start but got a lot better as the season went by. No question he will be the leader of the team; great news for Texas. Now that hey have all the players, if they could only get a coach...:smiley:

Texas has emerged as a contender for Brian Bowen, the highest rated player left unsigned. Jeez

MJ Walker announces tomm, could be anyone although it seems Virginia Tech has the most recent momentum.

@BeddieKU23

Texas figured out they spent so much on a coach, might as well spend some money on the players...:smiley:

@JayHawkFanToo

Yeah this one surprises me. Bowen doesn't care where he plays as long as he can go somewhere for 8 months

@BeddieKU23 Good. Big XII needs it. Hope Texas has a great season.

@Kcmatt7

Will be interesting to see if KU gets involved after tomm if svi stays in the draft

@BeddieKU23 I would have thought that we were out of the running, but if new guys are getting involved I don't see why we wouldn't throw our hat in the ring at least.

@Kcmatt7

Just thinking that we can't let that scholarship go to waste. We have recruited him previously, he'd be in the rotation if not fighting to be a starter. Great size, shooting ability etc for the wing spot. If we wanted to get someone of similar ability to Svi he's the only one left..

@BeddieKU23 It would be one hell of a steal this late in the recruiting season.

You can go back and see that I have said it all along UT will be our biggest competitor in the very near future!

Statmachine said:

You can go back and see that I have said it all along UT will be our biggest competitor in the very near future!

Nope. Shaka is still their HC. He is a schmuck.

BeddieKU23 said:

Texas has emerged as a contender for Brian Bowen, the highest rated player left unsigned. Jeez

If they get him and with Jones coming back, I can't wait for the media to predict UT to win the conference.

MJ Walker ended up at FSU.. All that time to end up where he originally was thought to be going

BeddieKU23 said:

MJ Walker ended up at FSU.. All that time to end up where he originally was thought to be going

Just lol. He could have done this in 2016.

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

MJ Walker ended up at FSU.. All that time to end up where he originally was thought to be going

Just lol. He could have done this in 2016.

That's so 2016. Kids need the limelight