🏀 KuBuckets Archive

One week from tomorrow, Bill Self will be inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame. Many of us on this site have been discussing and cussing for many years. Many of our discussion took place on the KU Sport website years before aproxinfinity gave us a plush lounge to kick back to give our opinions on our beloved Jayhawks. Some of us, like myself, respond to losses and painful moments with a resigned sadness and some of us get mad and blame the coach. Many have blamed the coach for the bad times. He gets paid a lot of money and has always accepted the blame in the post game news conference. There was a period before the NC and a period after the NC that some were calling for a new coach. Many, would start their comments with the phrase, "I don't think Coach should step down but,".
Many of the old timers are still here, and some of them have just decided that Self is a pretty damn good coach.

We have seen death spirals at other schools when coaching changes have been made. Yet, some of our bloggers say that the conference winning streak has been a bad thing. Many people think Coach leaves his starter's in too long. Some people think his pre-season scheduling is too tough. Lots of people moan because Kansas can't get 5 first round draft picks like Kentucky. Some people think he plays the wrong players for too many minutes. Some people were apoplectic that Traylor and Morningstar were starters. I myself thought Brannen Green played too many minutes. Many thought that is was poor coaching that led to the overall failure of Diallo, Alexander, and Selby.

Jayhawks are highly educated basketball fans. We love beating Duke, UNC and Kentucky during the season. We bought every hat, shirt and DVD when we won the National Championship but we were almost a tad bit prouder two years later of the Team that lost the National Championship with players like Conner Teahan playing significant minutes.

I, for one, will be very proud when Larry Brown presents KU Coach Bill Self for induction into the Basketball Hall of Fame.

!0_1504194740267_112898904.jpg ↗

@wrwlumpy me too!

!0_1504195080140_r960-29701bfc1bd2f386af159b88898329be.jpg ↗

Let's try it out: "Well, put him in the softball HOF for that HR, but until he gets to .500 in the Elite 8 he can't be considered that good a coach."

Hmmm.....nope, that sentence is just stupid.

@mayjay That's what I'm talking about.

!0_1504203840144_20150127_1644121-e1422399909621.jpg ↗

!0_1504204089038_empty-mizzou-arena-conversation.gif ↗

Bill Self a hall of famer? Please. If he wins another NC, he'll be the greatest coach in KU history without any doubt. That's a much higher perch than a mere hall of fame.

I think the HOF status is largely a political symbol. I personally care more about our coach fitting the needs of Kansas first.

In my book... Bill is the best coach we've ever had! A big part of it doesn't relate to our NC or Big 12 streak... I like where Bill has put our program. We are in that top elite circle and we were NOT in the same circle before Bill came to Kansas. Much of what has been done goes beyond Bill's work and relate to the administration and Jayhawk faithful. All of it has come together to put us in that top circle. And a few years turning it up just a bit higher will put us at the very top of college basketball!

@drgnslayr You make excellent, irrefutable points. Phog Allen, historically, transformed our program. He's got a NC, etc. Tough call. Self has provided unmatched sustained excellence. Amazing.

It's a great achievement for Self. He deserves the recognition especially for a guy that constantly deflects attention from himself. I think its great that in a week the spotlight will be all about him and not the group of guys he's coaching. And I expect in typical Self fashion that he'll continue to deflect what he's done to this point and recognize others who have helped him along the way. In the end though he's the mad scientist that has taken a history rich program to the next level. He deserves the HOF induction and someday I think he'll be universally known as the best coach in KU history (if he's not already thought in that light). I never could have imagined he would be this good of a coach given his background coming in. I tip my cap to you Bill

One thing no other program has experienced since UCLA is that we have not had a disappointing regular season under Bill. EVER! The worst we faced was the "Topeka YMCA" loss to TCU. And we still won the B12 title.

Post-season, another story obviously, but what is nice as a fan is being able to enjoy so many months each year of unmatched excellence.

Bill Self is a Rock Star! His Band's music never goes out of style!

I am overjoyed, ecstatic and full of pride that Bill Self is a Hall of Famer now. He deserves it more than anyone else who is actively coaching who hasn't been inducted and Imo more than some who are already in. I bet part of his speech will touch on the sentiment that he shouldn't get in because he is still coaching, that Hall of Fame is for former coaches. I understand that. But then we would be waiting a very long time to see Coach Self stand at the podium in Springfield Mass.
I wish I could go and watch him get in. I have one week left of work in Virginia! Had they scheduled the ceremony for the 2nd week of September, Id be there in a heart beat!
Rock Chalk everybody! Coach Self is a Hall of Fame coach! Did Roy get in when he was coaching at KU? I don't remember for sure. Larry didn't get in until way after he left KU. Having an active Hall of Fame coach at KU is going to be amazing for our beloved program!

!0_1504454383763_Capture.PNG ↗

Before the addition of Josh Jackson. This team would go undefeated and every starting five could be different in every game

!0_1504454737254_Capture.PNG ↗

Keegan story from last year.

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2016/dec/27/tom-keegan-bill-self-numbers/ ↗

The best coaching job was done by Larry Brown, imo. Our program had slipped tremendously until Brown came aboard.

@KUSTEVE Behind every great coach there is a staff. It was Assistant Coach Manning's contribution that took Brown to the top.

I strongly oppose HOF admissions until their careers end, but if anyone deserves premature admission, its Bill Self.

Hey, why didn't we hang Josh Jackson's jersey in AFH last January?

If early admission of coaches helps their recruiting, I reckon early hanging of player jersies would too!!!

What the hell?

Tyler's going to replace Bill, after Tyler gets his CV built at San Antonio. Let's see if he can be selected for BHOF now based on what he will do later. It will help his recruiting a lot, if he starts out in the BHOF, right?

Where does this promotional BS end?

Maybe we could admit the zygote of a HOF coach's son?

Imagine KU recruiting with BHOF Bill, BHOF Tyler and BHOF Zygote Self all at once!!!!!!

Surely that would get us an OAD 5.

@jaybate-1.0 lol. :100:

@approxinfinity

I've still got a little piss'n vinegar left! 😀

@jaybate-1.0

Don't lose that P&V!

@KUSTEVE

Brown's ability to recruit was something... it also opens a can of worms we can never shut if we go too deep.

@drgnslayr Larry saved our program. I'm sure there are people who have a jaded view of his methods with good cause. I'm not one of those people. We got caught - we paid a price in Roy's first year. Not condoning what happened, but Ted's last 5 years were 18-11, 15-14, 24-8, 13-14, and 13-16. 1 NCAA appearance in 5 years. That 5 year stretch does not include his worst years, which were 8-18, and 11-15. Then again ...looking at Uncle Ted's numbers, maybe I have been condoning it. Back then, the need to be relevant as a program was paramount. Uncle Ted ran this program into the ground, and he should've been let go way before he was finally fired, imo. Of course, I was a lot younger then, and I was much more forgiving to a coach that took us to 2 Final Fours and a National Championship in 5 years.

@jaybate-1.0 OMG! Tell us how you really feel man. Don't hold back or nothin

@wrwlumpy bring on #14 for KU this season, conference titles. I'm inclined to believe that KU will get the b12 tourney champ and a final four this season too.

which other coach has done what Self has?
Ok, yah we should have gotten atleast one more national title. but still, no one else can touch Selfs record. Not one. Its not likely that another coach will either.

@KUSTEVE I will agree that Larry returned KU to elite status with that title in '88. But the NCAA violations put tarnish on that. Roy continued where Larry left off and elevated KU even more. Prime example, he got like 4 final fours, didn't he? AND just flat out drubbed Kentucky in the early 90s. 150 - 99 or some crazy Shiite like that.

BUT Bill Self has exceeded both of those guys at KU. Neither one can touch what he's done.

@mayjay I presume you are referring to Danny Manning's dad. Roy was an assistant on the '88 team too. Surely he had an impact as well.

@Lulufulu Roy Williams was an assistant at UNC when KU won. Not sure what you mean?

@Lulufulu Roy was never an assistant to Larry Brown.

@Lulufulu Roy took over a team that had been excellent for 5 years: Bill took over a team that had been excellent for 20 years: Larry took over a team that had sucked the past 5 years. No comparison, imo. Now, if you want to say who has the best record, then Bill wins. Beyond that, nobody has accomplished what Larry did.

@KUSTEVE "Uncle Ted ran this program into the ground, and he should’ve been let go way before he was finally fired, imo."

Hey, we tried in 1978 with the "Gong Owens" campaign.

However, I do acknowledge the guy bled Crimson and Blue and has stayed loyal despite our fans turning on him. He just couldn't recruit well and his in-game coaching got stuck in the 60's.

@mayjay I remember that. It is so funny for me to hear people complain about a 30 win season with an Elite 8 appearance as failure. No, that is not failure. Failure is going 8-18. Failure is making the NCAA tournament one time in five years. Failure is losing to the Shlockers in your one appearance in five years. Can you imagine how bonkers the fan base would be if Bill had back to back losing seasons? Uncle Ted did that several times.

Uncle Ted made two Final Fours. Both times, his teams won 2 games to make it there.

Here is the HOF site listing this week's events associated with this year's ceremony. (You might need to have lots of disposable income to really get involved.)

http://www.hoophall.com/events/enshrinement/enshrinement-calendar/ ↗

@KUSTEVE

The reality is that Larry Brown got teams to be good the wrong way and Bill Self does it the right way. Every college programs Larry Brown has coached has been put on probation because the things he did. Yes, he is a great coach, perhaps one of the better coaches of all time, but he also has a penchant for cutting corners which diminished his stature greatly.

Like most KU fans, until recently I was under the impression that the probation after the '88 championship season was due to the Askew situation, but recently we have learned that the violations were considerably more serious and KU came within a whisker of getting the death penalty; as usual, Brown left KU one step ahead of the law.

@JayHawkFanToo Whether LB did it right or wrong, he did rescue us from the Ted Owens abyss. He gave us a title, and paved the way for the hire of the century .. Roy Williams. But the Self way is the far, far better way.

Maybe Bob Fredrickson deserves our kudos? He has my eternal gratitude.

@JayHawkFanToo He made an impact on our program in more than one way.

@KUSTEVE Your right. Larry is the one Coach that got this program turned back around for sure always be one of my favorite Coaches. As far as hiring Danny's dad I remember how Mizzery fans about flipped their hats I loved it - look at what some of these schools are doing now - with hiring some people to get kids, Larry was just one step ahead. - Larry still attends a lot of KU games, seems as though he still has that passion for KU basketball. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer54 Fizzou fans' reaction to that hire was nothing compared to UNC fans, who had eagerly watched Danny grow up to be a star, and counted on him being a Tar Heel until Ed whisked him away to Lawrence for his senior year.

@KUSTEVE

I am a Larry Brown fan. Big time. But he pushed the envelope in areas and put Kansas in deep peril with the NCAA.

I think it is a bit of a stretch to say Larry "saved" Kansas basketball. Larry gave Kansas basketball an injection of success again. It was big, especially during that time period. Hard to say if we would be were we are today without Larry's stint. I sort of think NOT. Especially since Larry was a part of bringing Bill to us.

The question remains... is it worth it to gamble the reputation of THE basketball landmark university for an injection of wins?

@drgnslayr Hindsight makes us all smarter. Brown DID save our program, and that was fine with the fan base for 30 years. Now, some additional information comes out making Brown look bad, and everyone wants to rewrite history. To suggest we didn't care if Brown cheated, we just wanted wins assumes we had knowledge of the infractions, and looked the other way. And we both know that is not how it worked. I recognize Brown's contributions to our program, while I condemn his methods at the same time.

@KUSTEVE It wasn't fine with me for 30 years. I was pissed when he left us on probation. I always figured it was more than a couple of phone cards given to recruits. Worse, Larry's comments these past couple of years about all three schools being penalized show he still doesn't get it. But we have covered all that before.

As to his legacy, it is mixed. I don't remember anything actually undermining the legitimacy of the title with ineligible players, so hurray for that, but the way he left stinks, and gives too much fodder to those saying we have cheated since before Wilt.

@mayjay So, when it was revealed that Brown had given Askew money to go visit his sick grandmother as the reason for probation, you were ashamed of the "stain" that Larry had left our program at the time? Or did that come later, after the problems at SMU surfaced, and more information surfaced decades later about Brown's tenure at KU? I would've thought the 'visiting the sick grandmother" would be compelling enough for you to give a Hall of Fame coach the benefit of the doubt- which I did, considering the NCAA changed the rules later for situations just like that. The other icky stuff didn't come out until decades later, when it showed that Brown was ...pathological??? I think everything happens for a purpose...Larry got us in trouble...Roy almost got us in trouble ...and Bill has never been in trouble. none of that has anything to do with Larry saving our program. Larry saved our program, and Roy saved us from Larry.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/larry-brown-bill-self-basketball-hall-of-fame/ ↗

@KUSTEVE

We looked the other way on a lot of things. We didn't know the hammer was going to drop how it did, but let's not rewrite history saying we didn't know there was risk involved at the time Larry was here.

I didn't want to open this can of worms... because it goes much deeper than what we got nailed for. Why rehash this stuff?

@KUSTEVE

At the time, the airplane ticket to Askew was all that we knew and if that that was all, KU would have gotten a slap in the wrist and nothing more. It did violate NCAA rules but I would give him a pass on that.
The other things that went on that we did not know, at least I did not, until recently were considerably more serious and apparently KU almost got the death penalty. I would have not agreed with it or given him a pass on that then or now. For a long time I thought that the NCAA shafted KU but now it is clear KU got lucky.

Based on what he did at UCLA and SMU, who both got much greater sanctions than KU, we can safely infer that Larry Brown, as good a coach as he is, he is not a manager that plays by the rules and breaks them freely and let's someone else pick up the pieces.

As I mentioned before, he is still a great coach but his off the field shenanigans greatly diminish his overall status.

@KUSTEVE @JayHawkFanToo

I was more disturbed when the sanctions came out in October 1988 that the committee explained that the death penalty had been considered, that KU knew it was considered when appearing before the committee, and that the committee was disturbed that KU diminished the violations during the hearing. The committee explained that the dp was not imposed for several reasons, first, the original violations from 1983 were football not basketball. Second, the staff involved in the new violations was no longer at KU. A third reason was that the violations occurred only in a short time in 1986.

So you might not have been as suspicious as me, but I was disgusted. (Maybe it has to do with the fact that my work back then involved people who didn't take very seriously their compliance obligations.)

@KUSTEVE "Bill has never been in trouble."

Not directly, but we did lose a scholarship and a few official visits due to over $5,000 in illicit benefits being provided to then-recruit Darnell by a KU booster, including transportation to an NCAA tourney game and failure to monitor JR Giddens free tickets given to them. KU self-reported the violations and DJ had to sit out 9 games, as well as pay back the benefits.

The tickets were not illegal, but the NCAA said if staff kept better track of who received tickets KU would have known of the relationship with the booster previously.

Bill and Co took responsibility for the problem without acting persecuted, which is Larry's victimization persona. Had KU not self-reported, a failure to ensure institutional control finding seems possible.

As for Askew's situation, sure, mitigating circumstances. But it was a clear violation, permission from the NCAA was never sought, the coach was involved, and he had no excuse and no remorse, which almost cost us dearly.

@mayjay I defended brown for 25 years, until it was apparent his methods were indefensible. I'm still not going to cast aside the achievements of that team, because as far as I am concerned, Calvin, Ron, Danny and company earned their place in KU history.

If a KState coach Jack Gardner, whom I never heard of, with a resume like this can make the HOF then I have no problem with Bill Self Being in the Hall. National Coach of the Year (1970); three Big Seven titles (Kansas State); five Skyline Conference titles (Utah); coached NABC East-West All-Star (1953, 1960, 1964). There's all kinds of non championship winning coaches in the HOF like Ray Meyer, Guy Lewis etc.

http://www2.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2017/sep/5/its-hall-of-fame-week-for-ku-coach-bill-/ ↗

Bill Self on Larry Brown: I learned more from him in nine months than I learned from probably everyone else combined.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/larry-brown-bill-self-basketball-hall-of-fame/ ↗

@BShark Good read.

HighEliteMajor said:

@JayHawkFanToo Whether LB did it right or wrong, he did rescue us from the Ted Owens abyss. He gave us a title, and paved the way for the hire of the century .. Roy Williams. But the Self way is the far, far better way.

Maybe Bob Fredrickson deserves our kudos? He has my eternal gratitude.

Great call, giving Bob Fredrickson kudos!

@Crimsonorblue22

Perfect post to fit in here. I (and others) may sound like we don't see Larry as a positive. I think all of us in here see Larry as a positive and his stay at Kansas was a positive, and will remain a positive in the future.

Bill surely learned a heck of a lot from Larry. I know he totally respects Larry and holds him in high regards.

Larry should be considered in the Top 5 of all basketball coaches, worldwide, pro and college...

@drgnslayr @HighEliteMajor
Thank you for the reminder of Bob Frederick (no suffix). His leaving in the early 2000's ("voluntarily" after the fball program did not get better) let Al Bohl in the door, resulting in Roy exiting through that same door.
Died in a bicycling accident, 2009. RIP, Bob, and thanks from our Jayhawk hearts.

!0_1504719448896_unnamed-1_t640.jpg ↗

Did you rob Bill's family photo album? Great pic as usual @wrwlumpy

@wrwlumpy

Imagine going back in time at the time of that photo and telling Bill he would, one day, coach at Kansas as a HOFr!

@wrwlumpy nice list. Switch out Perry Ellis for Darrell Arthur, since it is such an exclusive list. Cannot leave off Josh Jackson, absolutely the best frosh that Self has ever had, anywhere. Only Joel Embiid is in same category. Josh meant just as much to last year's team as Frank did.

@Lulufulu "crazy Shiite", lol. Some peeps in iran or iraq just took offense...now u dont want to make them mad...

@Crimsonorblue22 Ha! So much for Self being an Eddie Sutton protege. I think he took elements from Sutton, but learned the most from Larry. Plus, modern rules (not 2008 rules), wont allow the Sutton/Izzo 55pt bruiser ball games. Now its gotta be pretty ball, ala unc-ACC style. We'll just bring our own 7ft 280 lb wrecking ball, by way of Africa...lets start, then crash this finesse party...

Guys, you gotta check it out.- - - -Awsome video about Coach Self and his accomplishments as he is about to be inducted to the Hall of fame, on the 247 sports site gotta love it, . - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Self pre-induction NBA network interview.

🐦 View Tweet

🐦 View Tweet

🐦 View Tweet

🐦 View Tweet

Can't believe all the past players that were there!

We are very lucky to have a coach like Bill Self. I remember having that feeling that Roy could never replace Larry after he took over the program, and I felt the same way when Bill replaced Roy. But they both did amazing, and we have been on a great streak for a long time.

Here's a good example of a humble man:

"The Lord has blessed me and my family beyond measure," Self said. " There is no way an average player from Oklahoma would be standing before you tonight if his handprint wasn't all over my life. I will never take this honor for granted, and I will be more humble now than ever to occupy an office on Naismith Drive."

@KUSTEVE AWESOME QUOTE