🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Obviously he didn't play tonight. The board has been having various discussions about him for a bit now. I've long been of the camp that I'm not sure if he ever starts for KU. It's clear that Self doesn't trust him this year against quality competition. I'm also just not sure how it gets better for him next year as I think he is, best case the 6th guard. He's a hell of an end of the bench player to have but is he going to be okay with that? With the way transfer rules are he would get hammered transferring again unless he transferred down to D2 (not happening). I hope he guts it out because he is athletic and could be needed his SR year.

I know there are some people here that think he will be better and someone recently said they don't see a difference between him and our other guards making mistakes this year. While stats can be a dangerous thing (his numbers on a baaaad ASU team made him look better than he was in some ways but the advanced numbers were pretty telling) and it's small sample size this year he is firmly our worst guard. Behind Garrett and Newman who are both, admittedly average. I'm still not even sure Cunliffe is a net positive on the court, he has been bad at defense (worse than Clay Young statistically with a similar minutes played amount).

Interestingly enough the advanced numbers bear out that Mitch is far and away our best player on the defensive end (Garrett is the only player within spitting distance). So numbers can definitely be deceiving because I think it's hard to account for some of Doke's impact on that end altering shots and deterring things simply with his presence. Which isn't to knock Mitch at all, he has been great defensively blocking shots and drawing charges.

So anyway I digress. I'm not fully sure what Self thinks of Cunliffe. He pulled him so quickly against KSU. I think there are things to build on, but he needs to learn the game of basketball and have it become second nature which doesn't always happen.

Cunliffe is a role player. He essentially has 6 weeks of practicing KU sets. Prior to that, he had been on scout team running everybody else's stuff. He'll be a decent player, probably never a starter unless it's as a senior in 2019-2020 because he figures to be buried pretty deep next year Garrett, Grimes, KJ Lawson, and possibly Vick all playing wing minutes next year.

@BShark sounds like you do know what self thinks to me.🤔

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark sounds like you do know what self thinks to me.🤔

If only, then I'd know the full truth about Preston.

All we really know right now is that Self doesn't trust him in big games.

@BShark

You called Cunliffe right, tonight for sure.

I thought he would play 8 minutes or so given the press, but either you are right that Self doesn't trust that he can play under control, or...

KU was coughing up so many TOs, and barely able to stay in the game score wise, the first half, that Self just did not dare put him in the first half, which would have been the time to use Cunliffe to shorten the game for the starters.

I doubt Da Sousa would have seen the light of day, if Doke had not gotten fouled up when he did in the first half, and so Self had to protect Lightfoot, for the second half, too.

Self was clearly looking at the first half and thinking KU was doing a lot of good things that were not converting to points, because of a home whistle, and too many turn overs. He couldn't do much about the home whistle, so he just decided NOT to risk anything that might make the turnover problem even worse, if he could avoid it. Hence, no Cunliffe, and no Da Sousa until he just could not afford not to with Da Sousa.

This was a seriously ballsy job of coaching by Self tonight. He really just road out the first half doing the bare minimum. He in effect said I am NOT going to make adjustments the first half that Huggins can counter during half time. He coached the first half as if KU were only down 5 instead of 10-15. I mean it was incredible that he could restrain himself from trying to help his guys get back into the game. He basically exhorted them emotionally, but didn't give them diddledy squat in the way of adjustments until half time.

After half time, he adjusted the weave for the hand offs to occur waaaaaaaaaay outside and almost immediately; that put an end to the jamming up of the hand off that was occurring with the help from their high post and from their wings--something Huggins clearly borrowed from Squeaky two days before. Self also told the guys to get their butts up the floor so that Donate always faced 2 on 1. He was quite human after that. Also, whenever Mitch was in the second half he broke all the way to the basket off the pick and rolls, and they threw it to him over the shoulder like a quick football pass instead of a lob play. You could go on and on. Self tweaked a ton of stuff. He didn't change sets. He just tweaked the actions. I think it was the accrued effect of WVU not knowing how to adjust in huddles that finally broke down WVU's momentum. It wasn't our trey shooting. That didn't come til the stretch of the second half. And it wouldn't have helped, if WVU hadn't lost its focus and gotten on its heels defensively.

Coach Self has always said he likes an 8 man rotation by the time Conference play comes along. There is a bigger need for a big so De Sousa is in and Cunliffe out.

Its going to be really interesting to read Huggins' quotes about the game.

He threw his team under the bus

They were lazy, taking 3's

If Garrett doesn't play better, he might lose minutes. He's too passive on offense when opportunities to drive are there, he's not attacking the rim on rebounds, and he had a couple defensive lapses. He needs to step it up.

@HighEliteMajor

Yup.

But he still did a few good things out there.

And to be honest, that was war out there last night.

WVU was as big, strong and intimidating with DONATE as anyone we will see and Garrett is a skinny freshman; that was arguably a new level of pressing intensity and violence for him. He got overwhelmed, but he did not break and run. Good for him.

@HighEliteMajor If you shoot and miss as a reserve do you ever have a short leash with Bill? Could that filter in Garrett's decisions for not pulling the trigger or driving? IMO he has a lot to offer this team.

@HighEliteMajor

His offense is not quite there but his defense is very good and rebounds well as well. He averages 4.4 rpg and only Doke, Vick and Newman have better numbers, he is also second in the team to Devonte in steals withe 1.3 spg and his 0.7 tpg is the best among the rotation players.

@Gunman last week self was getting on him for not shooting—in rhythm of the game of course! Dg was saying they were wanting him to hit those open shots

Cunliffe's sample size is far too small to draw any significant conclusions on right now. He has played a total of 57 minutes for KU so far. That's basically three games worth of rotation bench play. He's played well twice, poorly twice, and too limited to make a judgment in his other three appearances. Saying a guy was good or bad in less than 5 minutes of action is nearly impossible. They could make one good play, get pulled and you say they were good, or make one bad play, get pulled and you say they played poorly. The truth would be they made only one play (positive or negative) and didn't get enough other action to really say one way or another how they played.

De Sousa played just 4 minutes against KSU. He broke a sweat, but you can't say much more about his performance because it was too brief to evaluate. On the other hand, he played pretty well against WVU. He was active, got some rebounds, made a couple of heady plays. Had he only played 3 or 4 minutes, he likely doesn't make those plays and we have another unknown performance.

Self is in a position where he needs to give Cunliffe and De Sousa both 8-10 minutes of game action each night. I think they can help in some limited roles, but playing them for only a couple of minutes a night doesn't give them a chance to make an impact. Maybe Cunliffe misses his first shot and gets yanked (I lived through that for a season in high school - you cannot be productive if you think you will get pulled if you miss a shot). If that's the case, he won't even have an opportunity to be productive and this is a wasted year for him. Same with De Sousa.

@BShark

I look at it like this... Mitch was heavily criticized just one month ago. I recall reading, "if we are counting on any minutes from Mitch, we are in for a long season."

Now we are seeing a pretty nice payoff from Mitch's play. No.. he's not probably going to become a future NBA lottery pick. But he easily saved us one conference game already. If we are able to win #14 then it wasn't going to happen without Mitch. Period.

Sam has a ways to go. We just have to give him his space to become the player he can become. We still are not experiencing most of his athleticism. He is still not quite up to speed with the pace of play. He is better than we have experienced so far.

@justanotherfan

Nice post and I agree, the sample size is too small to judge. The Mitch analogy is well taken. More minutes now might well pay dividends later this year. I realize we aren't privy to what Self sees in practice, and of course he's the Hall of Famer and I'm a lowly board rat. But on the other hand, it's not like Malik or Garrett (while certainly contributing) are lighting up the stat sheets either.

Again, not saying Sam is NBA material, but the potential for him to contribute Mitch-like minutes, seems reasonable to me.

@drgnslayr

Lightfoot is not ideal, but without Preston, he was the only option, and to his credit he stepped up. But this is where De Sousa can help the most. Lightfoot is a limited player at this point in his career. So is De Sousa. However, if Self can rotate them in the lineup well, neither Silvio or Mitch will have their weaknesses exposed for extended periods. In effect, their individual limitations can help disguise each other's limits in the long run.

This is an imperfect team. @StLJhawk is right that Sam, though limited, also could contribute. We aren't looking for double figure scoring from Cunliffe. We need his ability to stretch the floor, handle the ball a bit, and play solid defense. If he can do that for 8-12 minutes per game, that's a huge boost. Maybe he has a game where he hits a couple of threes and scores 10 or 12 points. That's a bonus. The hope is that he provides steady depth.

I think it is funny. In 1988 we had Chris Piper as one of our forwards. Averaged 3.9 for career, but no one remembers that. In his 1st two years, he averaged under 10 mins a game and had minimal stats. But for 1988 I remember, with the rosy glasses of retrovision, a major contributor as one of the "Miracles".

And he did have a lot to do with that tournament. Remember, we had lost Archie Marshall who was by far the better athlete. Despite rather journeyman stats before and overall, Piper averaged over 7 pts and 6.9 rebounds in 6 games.

Back then, though, with 4 years as the standard, bench players in their 2nd year were not expected to be major contributors. A guy like Lightfoot was expected to be pretty much unseen as a freshman, develop his game as a sophomore, and become a solid part of the rotation as a junior. Hopefully, become a starter as a senior.

My, how impatient we have become. Lightfoot is precisely where he should be if we all hadn't had our expectations change due to players leaving after 1, 2, or 3 years. The high level players we get now are able to do that, and we want their contributions accelerated as well. But to expect the same prodigious performances of everybody is absurd--"program players" like Mitch are the ones you need to fill those other 10 or 11 seats. And when given time to develop, yeah, they can be integral cogs in a drive to the top.

@drgnslayr Interested in your comment that Cunliffe can't handle the pace of play. It's not like this is a guy coming straight from high school, like Silvio. He was a starter as a freshman for a Power 5 school last year - well for the first half of the year. I would have thought he would have been fully acclimated to the pace of play with that experience under his belt. Just thinking that it is something else that HCBS doesn't like about his game - enough so that he isn't willing to give the other guards more of a breather by bringing Sam in for a couple of minutes each half or if one picks up 2 early fouls...

justanotherfan said:

Self is in a position where he needs to give Cunliffe and De Sousa both 8-10 minutes of game action each night.

Then the question becomes, why does Self not play Cunliffe at all in some games?

justanotherfan said:

@drgnslayr

Lightfoot is not ideal, but without Preston, he was the only option, and to his credit he stepped up. But this is where De Sousa can help the most. Lightfoot is a limited player at this point in his career. So is De Sousa. However, if Self can rotate them in the lineup well, neither Silvio or Mitch will have their weaknesses exposed for extended periods. In effect, their individual limitations can help disguise each other's limits in the long run.

I'm pleasantly surprised with Mitch's defense.

And yes he has had to step up. Just such a weird situation that he might go from needed contributor to deep bench next season. Or he could invoke another Jamari situation. When you have a full compliment of players (as KU should next year) there are too many scenarios to count.

@BShark

He sees him every day at practice, during scrimmages and individual drills and he knows a heck of a lot more than we do about his weaknesses and strengths. If he is not playinmg him, there has to be a good reason.

Yes, I know that game time and practice are not quite the same but I posit that Coach Self knows this as well.

@BShark

Mitch Lightfoot has been a pleasant surprise in all respects. He has shown good perimeter touch and has been a better rim protector than I think anyone could have anticipated. I don't think I saw any scouting report that suggested he would be a good shotblocker. This could change the trajectory of his entire career. He could become a starter if he can continue to improve, something I would not have thought possible after his freshman year.

As for why Self doesn't play Cunliffe, Self often shortens his rotation too early IMHO. He's the one in the Hall of Fame, so take that opinion for what any opinion posted on the internet is worth, but I think the streak influences him to win games in January and February rather than develop guys for March. I'm not even sure that's a criticism really, because the results speak for themselves.

:trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: and counting...

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BShark

He sees him every day at practice, during scrimmages and individual drills and he knows a heck of a lot more than we do about his weaknesses and strengths. If he is not playinmg him, there has to be a good reason.

Yes, I know that game time and practice are not quite the same but I posit that Coach Self knows this as well.

I'm completely on Self's side with this one. I don't usually disagree with Self too often, Jamari was a tough one though...

justanotherfan said:

@BShark

Mitch Lightfoot has been a pleasant surprise in all respects. He has shown good perimeter touch and has been a better rim protector than I think anyone could have anticipated. I don't think I saw any scouting report that suggested he would be a good shotblocker. This could change the trajectory of his entire career. He could become a starter if he can continue to improve, something I would not have thought possible after his freshman year.

As for why Self doesn't play Cunliffe, Self often shortens his rotation too early IMHO. He's the one in the Hall of Fame, so take that opinion for what any opinion posted on the internet is worth, but I think the streak influences him to win games in January and February rather than develop guys for March. I'm not even sure that's a criticism really, because the results speak for themselves.

I think it's going to be tough for Mitch to ever start, but definitely he looks like he can be a valuable contributor going forward. And it's not that he isn't a good player. It's that next year if Doke is back he is behind Doke, Dedric and KJ immediately on the depth chart (the Lawsons smoke him in practice last I heard and I know it is just practice but we also have full seasons of the Lawsons playing D1 ball to look at). Quite possibly Silvio as well, depending on his development. Silvio definitely has more tools and more of a D1 body, but needs to develop mentally. I think Mitch will firmly be ahead of McCormack though. A lot will depend on who stays after next season and how 2019 recruiting goes. KU is targeting a lot of players at Mitch's position in 2019. NBA level players like Matt Hurt. Of course, KU doesn't always land them, injuries and other stuff happens. That's how you end up with Landen Lucas starting, so it's not entirely out of the question for Mitch, just difficult.

One thing I will note is that if Mitch can keep improving his jump shot, that makes him very valuable going forward.

@justanotherfan

Coach Self is not the only one that prefers a primary 8 man rotation by the time conference plays starts. I have heard several other coaches including Jay Wright and, if I recall correctly Coach K, say the same thing.

Remember when UK had so many good players that Calipari started the platoon system? After a few games he called it a failure and went back to a traditional primary 8 man rotation which appears to be the ideal number to develop game time/court chemistry.

8 is a pretty good number. It lets you play your best players more minutes (and there is generally some amount of separation there) while also being able to rest them.

Next year we go back to being "Big Man U."

@DCHawker

Yes... Sam has experience. But sitting on the bench has given him some rust.

If he had received all the PT that Mitch has received, we would see a different player.

By the way, I don't really have a great feel for Sam's game yet. I know I like his attitude.... a lot!

Considering our thin bench and the large number of minutes being played by our guards, I was expecting Cunliffe to get more minutes.

I see several benefits, give some breathing room to other guards, give him PT to polish his game for down the stretch, provide more competition etc. While Garrett is good on D and rebounds he is a big liability on Offense. Self can give some of Garett's minutes to Sam. It will only benefit him and KU.

Cunliffe appears to be an athletic wing player and I just don't see him playing guard much.

@JayHawkFanToo

I have no issue with the 8 man rotation. My issue is more that when you are integrating a new player like Cunliffe, you need to give him more run than this, particularly when he didn't have the opportunity in non-con because he was a transfer. If you're going to play him this sparingly, it may have been worth more to the program to redshirt him this year with the intent of having him as a rotation player next year.

@justanotherfan Self couldn't red shirt him. Players have 5 years to play 4 in normal circumstances. Injuries are the one thing that can grant a player a 6th year of eligibility. Transferring counts against that 5 year clock and works as a red shirt. Cunliffe played 1 semester at ASU, transferred to KU, sat out for 1 academic year per NCAA rules, and is now eligible to play. At the conclusion of this season, he will have been in college for 2 years and played the equivalent of 1 year. He is for all intents and purposes a red shirt freshman right now. After this year, he will have 3 years to play 3 years.

It's the same situation as Jeff Witney who played 3.5 years at KU. Cunliffe also play 3.5 years when he's done here.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Yes, but if he sat this entire season, he'd have three full seasons left. Five to play four. His freshman season at ASU, this season at KU, then three more. The key is he would only play in four academic years -- his first, third, fourth and fifth. That's my interpretation. Perhaps I'm subject to correction there. We, I thought, discussed that with CF a few years back.

I think Cunliffe is in a tough spot. Next season, assuming we have Vick or get Langford, what's his role? Personally, I'd love to see Vick return. But does that make him the 5th perimeter player in a lineup that is playing two bigs? Not the sweet spot. His opportunity is likely based on need. Vick leave and we don't get another high end perimeter player (Langford). That said, you never know. Dotson, Grimes, Cunliffe, with Garrett off the bench. Or if Vick returns, Sam is better than Garrett possibly so sneaks into the 4th role.

@Gunman You know, it might. But I think that we are in a different age now with coach Self -- the Era of Great Tolerance. Heck, he yanked Sam for a bad foul, and got him right back in. Self has softened. He seems to accept mistakes much better. But being safe and not throwing up a "brick" as one of Garrett's shots was correctly referred to last game, is the safer path.

Attacking the hoop, though, seems to be available to Garrett. I counted at least 6 missed opportunities from him last game. A big number. On one, his defender was recovering back and he had almost the entire half of the floor. He may not have gotten to the hoop, but he could have at a minimum made the attempt and I'm sure a dish opportunity would present on some, too.

@BShark

Self holds players out of games without explanation, because of 1 or more of the following:

1.) undisclosed injury;

2.) bad match-up;

3.) desire to minimize turnovers;

4.) undisclosed disciplinary issue;

5.) a change in rotation players.

Self told us minutes for perimeter players would decline, if either, or both, Da Sousa and Preston started playing.

Cunliffe could be nursing an injury, but I doubt Cunliffe is being punished for bad play, or disciplinary issues. He was just lowest on the depth chart, and so Self sat him when Da Sousa showed up. Da Sousa playing meant no minutes when Self had to play 5 perimeter players. And He could even play Mitch at 4 some. This takes away the need for Cunliffe to give breathers to 4 or 5 small small positions.

I forgot the accordion affect of Da Sousa arriving, when I indicated Cunliffe might get 8 minutes.

Cunliffe could see some action vs Baylor if leads permit, so Self can keep his starters fresh for OU.

@HighEliteMajor I'm looking at Jeff Withey's situation for the comparison. Withey came here after a semester at Arizona, sat out a year and had 3.5 years of eligibility left when he became eligible at KU.

I fail to see how Cunliffe is in a different situation than Withey. Cunliffe transferred after a semester at ASU, sat out a year, so why would he not also have 3.5 years left as well?

I think as Self said when Silvio got cleared that the guards minutes would decrease more than the Mitch or Dokes is some of the reason. Self also stated when he was able to play that he was a projected and would be in the program for a few years before being a major guy.

HighEliteMajor said:

I think Cunliffe is in a tough spot. Next season, assuming we have Vick or get Langford, what's his role? Personally, I'd love to see Vick return. But does that make him the 5th perimeter player in a lineup that is playing two bigs? Not the sweet spot. His opportunity is likely based on need. Vick leave and we don't get another high end perimeter player (Langford). That said, you never know. Dotson, Grimes, Cunliffe, with Garrett off the bench. Or if Vick returns, Sam is better than Garrett possibly so sneaks into the 4th role.

5th might be generous even. I don't think he passes Garrett but stranger things have happened.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I think you're right. He'd have a dangling semester out there if not. Old(er) guy brain cramp. I think I was wrong with CF too.

He is in fact listed as a RS FR. That changes things. I think he can definitely contribute as a SR now. For some reason I wasn't thinking he had that much eligibility left either. I blame the NCAA for being oftentimes convoluted.

@jaybate-1.0 adding bad body language on the bench

Unfortunately, Cunliffe missed the window of opportunity that is the schedule before conference when coaches experiment with rotations. Once conference play starts,. the rotation is pretty much set and players are expected to produce. De Sousa is perhaps the exception since there is an immediate need with bigs but the team has plenty of experienced players at the wing so his current value is limited.

Self has a long history of sitting guys several games, even half a season, and then giving them unexpected tries.

The chances are high we will see Cunliffe again unexpectedly when everyone is certain he will never play again.

I will add though that Self has cryo-iced guys, after he has either signed a better player for next year, or decided some one he thought was leaving is coming back.

So: maybe Malik has decided to come back, or Self has not announced some new transfer or decommit.

It’s precarious at the bottom of Self’s scholarship depth chart, for sure.

Also Self is a cook seasoning a stew. He can at any moment decide the stew needs something else, even if only for a few minutes each game, and give someone else a shot at being the new herb. He also doesn’t hesitate to change his mind back, if it doesn’t improve the taste.

@jaybate-1.0 I think Sam will get more opportunities. WV is a bad match up for a guy Self doesn't have trust in yet. Silvio got minutes with Doke in foul trouble and he wasn't being asked to help break the press. Apples & Oranges I think.

@Barney

Totally agree and I am pretty confident he would not have played dasousa If he had not had to.

My issue with the Cunliffe thing is that right now, by yanking his minutes around, you may be damaging his confidence for later on. Right now, he feels like if he makes a mistake, he's going to get pulled. As a result, he's thinking rather than playing free. That's a tough habit to break. You don't want to put the idea in his head that the coaching staff doesn't have confidence in him.

You don't want an athletic shooter like Cunliffe gun shy, because that may hurt his ability to contribute next year. That's why I say hold him out. It's more about the mental side of things than eligibility. If you aren't going to play him, tell him he's not going to play, but that you're expecting him to be in the rotation as a contributor next season. Don't jerk his minutes around this season because he may start changing his game without even realizing to avoid the quick hook, and once that aggressive edge is gone, it's hard to get back.

@justanotherfan Rewind a few years ago and I was saying the same thing about Releford, EJ, Selby, White, Diallo, Adams, Greene, et. al. You have to let a guy settle in, be comfortable, relax a bit, and just play. Confidence is key. Game experience is invaluable. I think you're right. I like your suggestion of just holding him out -- the roller coaster does him no good. If he's not Self's choice, so be it ... use him only if absolutely necessary, or in scrub time.

One thing I will say, though, is that I do think Self has dialed it back on the quick hook. Cunliffe got one of the epic quick hooks vs. KSU. One, quick/silly/out of control foul, and immediately out. Haven't seen too many of those this season (in comparison to past years). The most epic hook I can recall was Anrio Adams -- in the game, excited, inbounds to Adams, dribbles off his foot out of bounds, turnover, and he's out. Total game time, 3 seconds. Beautiful. No cereal eating on that one.

The difference is, Self reinserted Cunliffe pretty quickly. Adams, not so lucky. Where is that guy, anyway?

On the dialing it back thing, Self really seems to be a shadow of his former self (pun intended). But the Cunliffe yank was a clear reminder of seasons' past.

I like Cunliffe, but I'm not on his bandwagon for increased PT because I don't think he's more talented than the guys we're playing. Meaning, I don't see his upside this season as outstripping the guys Self is playing right now.

Picking a scab -- imagine that Reed and Morningstar were both injured and could not play beginning January 1, 2011. And imagine the national championship trophy sitting in KU's trophy case. Just imagine.

@HighEliteMajor What's your take on giving some of Marcus G minutes to Sam C?

@HighEliteMajor I agree, it seems Self has dialed back the quick hook a bit this year, thankfully. Though Cunliffe might think otherwise.

Not agreeing as much on not seeing Cunliffe having anything over Garrett or Malik. Those two have had a lot of game minutes to show their stuff (and I've not been impressed with what I've seen vs minutes given). Cunliffe hasn't had a tenth of those minutes to shine - or to fail. Of course, as mentioned before, I'm not the Hall of Fame coach who sees them all in practice every day, so I could very well be completely wrong. Regardless, practice and game minutes aren't the same, and I'd sure like to see the kid get at least 15 unyanked minutes just once to prove himself. Sure doesn't seem like it would be that big of a dangerous step down in quality over the other two that it would actually change the outcome of a game where the matchups looked okay for doing this.

Lastly, my memory aint what it used to be and I'm hazy about remembering the Reed/Morningstar thing. Are you saying if we played them less and played Selby and ____ more and we'd have won an NC? Not disagreeing, just can't remember.

IMO, the only reason Sammy isn't playing much lately is because we have another Big! That's it. We got Silvio cleared and now we have post depth...sorta.
When we didn't have him, our guards were our team. Plus Dok of course. And, no I'm not belittling Mitch. But we needed another body and Sam was the only one available. Point blank.

Since Sam became eligible, other than the Stanford game when he played 9 minutes, KU has not had a game where it was far ahead enough to experiment. Unless KU gets an easy game in the future, I don't see Sam getting a lot of playing time since winning games is now priority one.

@AsadZ I am big Garrett fan. But I’m a bit discouraged by his timidity on offense. I get that he’s not a great shooter, but he’s had good opportunities to drive and yet he defers. Also, he seemed strangely a bit hesitant to attack the boards. I think Self sees the defense thing as a necessary element, but I would strongly consider playing Sam over Marcus if Marcus doesn’t show some improvement offensively. Marcus does move the ball well and is a nice post feeder, channeling some inner B-star. Right now I’d stick with Garrett. Tough call. What do you think?

@StLJhawk On Cunliffe, I don’t see more upside this season. Meaning, I think the better gamble is on Garrett and Newman to be better in March. But I’m not certain by any means.

Now, in 2011, I was certain. If we didn’t have either Reed or Morningstar, I think the EJ, Selby, Releford combo would have been better. EJ proved his worth in huge games playing the 2 spot in 2011/2012. He was a pure 2 (that I mistook as a possible 1). In hindsight, he should have started at the 2 from day
one and been left alone. And if he and
Selby were simply played instead of sitting behind Brady and Tyrel, I will go to my grave believing we win the title. Releford hurt his ankle, So was less available. But we all saw him perform the next year as well. He and EJ, as a combo, were just better. Selby needed major PT. He was a talent that needed some patience. Self had his security blankets that were safe. That reliance on safety ended up being fatal. ‪ ‬

@HighEliteMajor My issue with EJ was that he was always an incredibly streaky player, even at his best in 2011-12. Selby was also injured most of the season after he got eligible. Selby was never going to approach his ceiling in year 1 at Kansas because of his injury and was not better than Morningstar or Reed after his injury.

Morningstar and Reed may not have had the ceiling that EJ or Selby had, but they were much more consistent which is what that group needed more in the long term with Tyshawn taking over the full time PG duties and being inconsistent at best at that point as a PG.

In a different universe with Selby not getting injured, he possibly takes the lead guard role from Taylor, but we'll never know because of that injury to Selby.

@Texas-Hawk-10 We lost to VCU. Brady/Reed were a combined 2-16. That entire season I predicted exactly what happened. I whined and complained about Morningstar constantly. I suggested that in high leverage games, those lower talent guys would cost us. Eerily similar to our Landen Lucas experiences. We can make all the arguments we want about those three guys, but in our last games of the season (which of course by default become the most important) they were major weak links. Selby played in every game he was eligible, except in early February. The injury was done. Self abandoned him, in favor of the low talent duo. When you look at his games when he played over 20 minutes, together, it showed his worth. EJ/Selby all day over Brady/Reed. All day.

All both of them needed was playing time.

Releford was clearly better. He hurt his ankle, but when he got back, he was better too. Had an excellent game against MU in February.

Self blew it 2011. Poor personnel decisions. Of course, we might not have been in the Elite 8 vs. VCU, in that precise spot should another path have been chosen. But the universe of possibilities is too much to consider.

That's way long ago. Just my opinion. I've been told a million times that I'm wrong. But I'm right. To my grave believing I'm right on that. My mind will never change.

And I don't think Bill Self today, would make those same decisions in 2011.

@HighEliteMajor I concur with your comments. I think Self should give some of his minutes to Sam. I feel it would bring more competition and would provide meaningful minutes to Sam to showcase his abilities and increase his confidence.

HighEliteMajor said:

@AsadZ I am big Garrett fan. But I’m a bit discouraged by his timidity on offense. I get that he’s not a great shooter, but he’s had good opportunities to drive and yet he defers. Also, he seemed strangely a bit hesitant to attack the boards. I think Self sees the defense thing as a necessary element, but I would strongly consider playing Sam over Marcus if Marcus doesn’t show some improvement offensively. Marcus does move the ball well and is a nice post feeder, channeling some inner B-star. Right now I’d stick with Garrett. Tough call. What do you think?

Garrett for Malik. (Let our other guys shoot)

Garrett with Malik. (Let Malik create)

Garret for Svi. (Let Garrett rebound)

Cunliffe isn’t that versatile.

Cunliffe sits.

@AsadZ Which one do you think, though, Sam or Marcus, if say both got 20 minutes per game, would be the better player for this team in March? Which one is the better gamble on the minutes available?

I think Self is choosing Marcus because he brings a high end talent to the lineup defensively, something we need.

@HighEliteMajor

To suggest that Reed and Morningstar were responsible for the defeat because of how they shot during a NCAA game ignores not only their other contributions but also the dismal ball handling by Kief. 8 turnovers was the killer, not missed shots.

Your argument that Selby would have taken us to the Final 4 and a trophy if better prepared (by taking more of Brady's minutes) ignores his poor performance in the VCU game and his own poor fg shooting (37 % for the year). More tellingly, it ignores the history of some of our deepest teams or most experienced superstars who had poor performances in the our elimination games--witness Graham's 0 for 12 in 3 pt shooting over the last two E8 games. Or our experienced team's inability to make layups against UCLA, or the super-experienced 2003 team's abysmal FT shooting in the final.

You have made Selby into a fantasy hero who would have taken us not only past VCU, but also through the semifinal and to the net cutting ceremony. The same guy who didn't cut it in the NBA or the D League. All because Self didn't replace his Big 12 1st Team Defensive Team honoree with the superstar who, given the chance, pretty much failed to demonstrate his super ability.

!0_1516379624616_Screenshot_2018-01-19-09-25-14.png ↗

@mayjay I appreciate all of that, but you weren't around for the arguments. It was a knockout. I won. You must assume that I don't recall much of this. My argument is not that "Selby would have taken us to the final four." Fake news. I never argued for Selby to be the one guy to take Brady's minutes. My argument was that EJ, Releford, and Selby were better than those two (Morningstar/Reed). In fact, I was much more on the EJ bandwagon. I argued to bench both Reed/Morningstar, and go with EJ, Releford, and Selby in place of their minutes. That by March, we'd have better players.

First, I assume that you checked and saw that the turnover margin in favor of VCU was only +1. So turnovers were a push. In fact, you would expect against VCU and their style of play the margin might have been higher.

Second, do you even know how many of Markieff's turnovers led to points? Uh, just two. Already heard that argument. Already defeated it. Further, as I recall the topic, Markieff had 7 turnovers. The play by play showed 7 not 8. Still high, but that's my recollection.

I said time after time during the season that playing those two would cost us. It did. What seemed apparent was that in games vs. top teams, I never suggest something is the only reason. Big, big reason in this game. Selby, EJ, and Releford were way underutilized heading into the tourney. Look at their minutes. The same things we talk about now -- giving players game experience so they are comfortable and ready for the moment -- were true then. If those three guys would have played all year, over Morningstar/Reed, we would have had better players. Some proof, in part, look at what we had in EJ and Releford the NCAA tourney in 2012. EJ at the 2, and Releford at the 3 were better overall players. If someone would rather have the Reed/Morningstar, more power to them. I'd kick their tails with EJ and Releford. In fact, it is interesting that both guys somehow won an Elite 8 game in 2012, and a FF game that same year.

It is pretty funny. Two guys that went 2-16 from the field were not a major component to the loss, according to you.

And then you reference pro ball -- what are Reed and Morningstar doing? Nothing. It was unreal during that season how many folks were actually suggesting those guys could play pro, even NBA. I was the bad guy because I pointed out the complete absurdity.

Anyway, I grant you that you could be right. Heck, we could have lost before the Elite 8 if the path were different after playing those three. But it matters little what anyone says to me on this topic. I'm a rock head and not changing my mind.

@mayjay

You make many solid points.

I have long been a Brady advocate.

HEM has long found him lacking.

Selby?

Selby started late, briefly played explosively early, then spent much of his time playing in a boot, then came back some. Selby played a wing to get all our best players on the floor at the same time. He was a good, green, slightly TO prone college player, when healthy who would have developed into an all conference, and maybe an all American had he opted for 2-3 year career. But his mother and Carmelo-related mentor were determined to cash in early. Self had to marginalize him once the injury limited him and he would not commit to another season. He just did not bring enough value to the program to give him the keys and keep other player development for that and the following season from happening. And, in the end, Self’s judgement was vindicated, because Selby never did excel at the next level. Like so many guys with a lot of athleticism at 6-3 and under, he just wasn’t the perfectionist floor gamer and lock down defender, or the high percentage 3pt shooter he would have had to be to become either another Jason Kidd (his only viable path) or another Vinnie Microwave Johnson. Selby had superstar hype with 5 star athleticism and 3-4 star skills. Selby committed to Bruce at UTenn, before Bruce was exposed and imploded. That’s really all you need to know about Selby. The mentor appArrently knew the hype game and got him his 5 stars and 1 rank; then fed him to schlocky, hustling Bruce. He and Mom let the mentor take them for a ride from the start. They apparently ran to Self and KU for PR cover, when Bruce and his gun happy, joy riding program couldn’t deliver the incentives.

I used to think: Josh coulda been uh contenduh!

But since Selby washed out in the L so quickly, I have come to believe his mentor saw the same holes in Josh’s game Self did and decided it was better to take an early score, at 49th in the draft, rather than wait for a 6-2 NBA long-career, long shot to develop under Self.

After all the hype, here is who Josh Selby really was.

2011–2013 Memphis Grizzlies
2012 →Reno Bighorns
2013 Canton Charge
2013 Maine Red Claws
2013 Qingdao Eagles
2014 Cedevita Zagreb
2014–2015 Bnei Herzliya
2015–2016 Socar Petkim
2017 Maccabi Kiryat Gat
2017–present Incheon Elephants

He was like many 4-5 year KU players that went on to 10 year careers overseas. That’s who Josh Selby really was behind the hype. There was no Long career NBA player there ever.

This is NOT meant as a criticism of him. I like Selby and thought he played through courageously at KU. He probably would have lasted a few years longer in L, if he had stayed 2 more years at KU, but someone apparently ran the numbers and said the present worth of three years now getting paid, is greater than what you would get 3 years later with only a slightly longer shelf life in the L. Selby, like Keith Langford, has done just fine.

But KU sure could have used him another couple years!!!

FWIW, I believe that Selby had the talent to play in the NBA, he was the Summer League MVP. His problems were more mental and off the court not his lack of basketball talent. At KU I remember him as being “selfish” and not in a Coach Self follower kind of way.

2011 is the sorest of sore subjects for me.

@jaybate-1-0 You said, "I have long been a Brady advocate. HEM has long found him lacking."

If there is another topic that created more words of debate between the two of us, I'm struggling to recall it. Long, long ago, I think we finally agreed to disagree. Or something like that ...

@JayHawkFanToo If Selby would have had one shred of sense (or a parent or parents that had any sense) he would have stayed at KU, listened, learned, and become as star. If he had done that, I bet he's in the NBA right now.

@HighEliteMajor

Yes, but it was out of that debate that emerged a new standard of civil discourse that has distinguished our online community from all others and stands still as a lonely lighthouse in the stormy internet of our time. I have been so enriched by getting to read your thoughts in the years since and so grateful for your intuitive efforts to work together to make this a more and more special sanctuary of thought and camaraderie over the ensuing years. Really, I track some of the origins of the intelligence and civility of our community to your and my reaching out to each other across our conflict and saying the neighborhood and the legacy matters more than one of us being right. I began to understand what I hoped could happen between us, and so for our beloved little community, when I was coincidentally reading about the initially stormy relationship of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. We are not weighty figures like them, but I figured if we could find peace as they did over time, it could yield the great benefit of a model for the community. I feel it has in some small way. It is not enough to agree to disagree. The trick is to agree to disagree with genuine affection and respect. No one can do it with everyone, but everyone can do it with someone, and before you know it, lots ARE doing it with many. I genuinely believe this is the key to functional republics and online communities.

I genuinely like and respect you and enjoy both the times we agree and the times we don’t.

Rock Chalk!

I'm glad to read so much conversation about PT. It will be good practice for next year, when we all surely battle over who will get the minutes!

I know we are all complaining about not having depth this year.... but at least we don't have to watch so much talent rot away at the end of the bench!

@drgnslayr

You have gone to the heart of the only orginal philosophical principle I have developed in my life.And I am sure someone else has come to the same insight, but I at least came to it on my own.

EVERYTHING IS PROBLEMATIC, SO CONSTANTLY IMPROVE AT PROBLEM SOLVING.

Lack of depth is one problem.

Too much is another.

Just the right amount is another, because soon too many injuries and bad life choices will leave you unprepared for too little talent.

And so on.

Problems are ubiquitous.

As Roseanne Rosannadanna said, “If it’s not one thing, it’s another.

All one can do is steer toward solvable problems.

My old mentor said: a good life is an endless stream of solvable problems.

@HighEliteMajor You are right about me not including the EJ and Releford parts of your argument. That was because a lot of your discussion today was about Selby, so I jumped on that. And I actually was around for those arguments over the years, but only as a lurker not as a participant on either board.

Releford is a perfect example of someone I always thought would do great if given more opportunity, but when he was he did not seem to be consistently aggressive enough: he would show a nice deep range on a 3 but then not attempt another shot for 6 minutes. Frustrating! But I will never forget his RS year when every single bench camera shot showed him jumping and screaming his supportc and that huge smile as he high-5ed everybody. Mitch does that this year, but he is playing. TReleford was fully participating best he could while not playing. An admirable trait.

I only brought up the NBA to show, exactly as 'bate has posted, that Selby's ceiling was not as high as we thought (and, by the way, I wanted him playing more), so the inference is fair that he might not have performed at a higher level given more PT. So the pro careers of Reed and Mstar are not relevant to that discussion.

I think Selby's injury lingered a lot longer than he let on, and he hid it for the draft.

Kief's turnovers may not have led to VCU pts, but they cost KU at least 8 points if we avg 1 pt per possession.

@HighEliteMajor I feel by giving minutes to both, each player has the capability to help in March. They have their strengths and shortcomings, one is strong in D/rebounding and other on Offense. I think both will help in March but both need minutes especially Sam for his confidence.

@mayjay I'm no fan of those turnovers. And surely, no doubt, they were a component in the loss. As a lurker, you exercised great restraint. Releford was one of my favorite Jayhawks. Selby perhaps one of my least favorite. Brady was a five year, bled crimson and blue guy. I would take Brady (and EJ/Releford/Reed) as a part of this program any day over Selby. No doubt.

@jaybate-1-0 Really appreciate that. Very nice of you. We did go through a period of lively debate, shall we say, back at kusports.com. Smoking the peace pipe over there was an important step. One thing I will say is that in the many aspects of my life, reading your posts (and re-reading them as is sometimes necessary for me to even attempt to comprehend your higher level of thought and expression), is as educational for me as anything I am exposed to. You have made us all smarter. And you have made all of us think much more than we otherwise would. Rock Chalk back at you, a great respect, my friend.

@HighEliteMajor I was playing golf then. Since that time, I had to get a new hobby. My wife calls this "your little basketball friends group."

Lots to take up here.

There are two schools of thought. One is to go to your core group of players early, and ride that group as far as the core will take you. This is the "high floor" argument. You sacrifice some upside along the way at times, but you know you are getting production at level X all the time.

The other method is the high ceiling method. Maybe you lose a game here or there working with raw, but talented players, but you can realize the highest potential that way.

Self, by his nature, is prone to favor the high floor. You don't win 13 conference titles in a row (and finish either first or second in your conference every year since the Clinton administration - true fact, look it up) without getting a high baseline of production every season.

But there's a cost to that. I've written many times on this board that the streak in some ways is a curse for KU hoops because trying to make sure we beat Texas Tech or Baylor in January or February prevents us from getting ready for March. We have yet to find a way to balance those costs.

The 2011 season will continue to haunt KU because that was, in many ways, Self's best overall team. The very next year the leftovers from that team - Johnson, Releford, Taylor and Robinson - took an otherwise undermanned KU team all the way to the national final!!! How does that group, plus two lottery picks end up losing to a good but not great VCU team? And how do Morningstar and Reed combine for 16 (16!!!) shots when neither one was hot?

Self, in many ways, is a better coach when he is somewhat limited, because he's prone to tighten his rotation in tough situations anyway. Remember 2008? That team went 8 deep, but in the national title game, all of the minutes went to basically seven guys - Rush, Chalmers, Collins, Arthur, and Jackson each played 29 or more minutes. Kaun and Robinson both played about 20. Aldrich played a token 4 minutes that even the biggest KU fan can't really remember (he did not record a stat). Give Self a lineup he can roll with and a couple of token subs, and he's happy.

In some ways, that's what is exciting about this year's squad if Billy Preston becomes available. All of a sudden the rotation on the perimeter is Graham, Newman, Svi, Vick and the rotation in the post is Azubuike, Preston, Lightfoot, with Garrett and De Sousa taking the roles as bit players. With that group, Self is no longer tinkering with minutes. He plays his 3 out, 2 in, rotating Lightfoot as the stretch man inside, while Newman fills the Sherron Collins role of instant offense off the bench. Collins played huge minutes for KU that year - he missed six full games and still played just 300 fewer minutes than starter Russell Robinson (the only player to start every game that season). Newman could revive that role, and might even find himself offensively.

Of course, all of this still depends on Preston...

@mayjay

Selby definitely had the talent for the NBA as shown by his domination in the Summer League and he also played relatively well in the short time he played in the NBA; what he did not have is the temperament for the League. Some players have it and some just don't.

@jaybate-1.0 "My old mentor said: a good life is an endless stream of solvable problems."

Nice! Just added that to my quote book.

@justanotherfan

No Preston but we do have Silvio

@BeddieKU23

We do, but Silvio doesn't have the offensive skill that Preston does. Silvio won't command consistent double teams in the post. He won't hit 15 foot jumpers.

Silvio compares favorably to Darnell Jackson and I hope he has that type of career. But Preston is so much more skilled. That's a huge thing.

justanotherfan said:

@BeddieKU23

We do, but Silvio doesn't have the offensive skill that Preston does. Silvio won't command consistent double teams in the post. He won't hit 15 foot jumpers.

Silvio compares favorably to Darnell Jackson and I hope he has that type of career. But Preston is so much more skilled. That's a huge thing.

I agree Preston had more offensive skill and there are not many players that size that can shoot or handle the ball like he can. Basketball is more then what a player can do on offense as we all know. I feel confident saying silvio is more of a bill self type player that could fit into a role this team may need going forward. Of course we need to see more of what he's capable of doing before we can fully assess his capability here

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400989139 ↗

Silvio managed to get three fouls in two minutes and log no other stats.

BShark said:

Silvio managed to get three fouls in two minutes and log no other stats.

Refs sent a message to him. Young pup will learn

@BeddieKU23 Definitely. It should be sobering for anyone that thought he'd be a force this year though.

BShark said:

@BeddieKU23 Definitely. It should be sobering for anyone that thought he'd be a force this year though.

Baylor has a tough long team. He just took himself out the game fouling

Few weeks from now I think we see different

I thought he'd be able to get his rear into someone and box out, before his man got the ball!

Can Silvio shoot throws?

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Can Silvio shoot throws?

I would assume better than Doke. :joy:

@BShark My mother, when stuck in her wheelchair, could have been better at shooting FTs than Dok.

Seriously, someone google it🤔

Anybody else watch post game?

mayjay said:

@BShark My mother, when stuck in her wheelchair, could have been better at shooting FTs than Dok.

PHOF

I didn't see Drew, wondered what his excuse was? Did he ask Fran for help w/ blaming refs?

@justanotherfan wrote:
But there’s a cost to that. I’ve written many times on this board that the streak in some ways is a curse for KU hoops because trying to make sure we beat Texas Tech or Baylor in January or February prevents us from getting ready for March. We have yet to find a way to balance those costs.

Self does not believe in good losses as some other coaches atest. I agree with his philosophy.

Gunman said:

@justanotherfan wrote:
But there’s a cost to that. I’ve written many times on this board that the streak in some ways is a curse for KU hoops because trying to make sure we beat Texas Tech or Baylor in January or February prevents us from getting ready for March. We have yet to find a way to balance those costs.
Self does not believe in good losses as some other coaches atest. I agree with his philosophy.

It's different this year though. Cunliffe is the only guy that doesn't really play and I don't think him playing some now makes this team better for March.

Cunliffe can shoot. Shooters get hot. How many times have we fallen victim to a hot shooter in March who averages 5 or 6 points a game, then hits five threes against us? And yet we never seem to have that guy on our side... wonder why?

We start 4 shooters...

@justanotherfan A player just wants a chance to prove his worth. If a kid sees the writing on the wall then he's hoping for injuries or foul trouble for his teammates so he gets his chance.
Get the kid in for several first half minutes and see if you can afford to let him back in the second half. It's not like he couldn't have played while later in the first half. We weren't sharp anyway.
How can a guy sit for a month and come in to save the game especially from a shooting standpoint?

BShark said:

We start 4 shooters...

It seems more like 2-3. It doesn’t seem like Vick and Newman can get hot on the same night. Other nights, neither are hot. If we can get all 4 hot in a big game? Well, lock the door, mama!

@BShark Garrett is a liability on Offense, his rebounding and D is solid but the kid just can't score. Yesterday he even missed many FTs, almost cost us the game. One easy way to get Sam on the court is by giving some of MG's minutes to Sam.

Self isn't doing it though, for whatever reason. I kind of wonder if Cunliffe is going to transfer again. :/ :thinking:

mayjay said:

@HighEliteMajor I was playing golf then. Since that time, I had to get a new hobby. My wife calls this "your little basketball friends group."

Haha. Priceless. My wife says what are the buckets sayin? Lol

BShark said:

Self isn't doing it though, for whatever reason. I kind of wonder if Cunliffe is going to transfer again. :/ :thinking:

Me too buddy. - -I was talking with some friends , and they were trying to figure how the roster was going to shake out next year , like possibly Mitch red shirting and ya da ya da ya da - -ya know? - We got to talking about who might and who might not be back - -and with the way the depth is going to be , kind of agreed that Sam might get buried - -again not really see very few minutes . - - - Sometimes hard to transfer twice -- -seems like a really good kid to me it's just the depth at his spot - -he isn't taking anyone's spot/starting for sure right?

I mean he playin in the back court role -well look at the possibilities there if that's where he is at. - -you look , you gonna have Moore , Dotson at the #1 - - You got Grimes and Garrett at the # 2 right? - -I seriously don't believe - -well he is not going to play the point for sure so that leaves the # 2 and I think really good chance Grimes has that locked with Garrett relieving him some there.

Then if you go to the # 3 - -We land Langford - - then you would have Langford and a Lawson there whichever the one that would play the 3 KJ? - -is he the one cause doesn't Dedric play the 4? - - and if Vick comes back then it's Vick & the Lawson so can't really see him breaking through there either. - just a bad situation for him so if there are any transfers looks like he would probably be the most likely to me anyways. Mitch isn't going anywhere he loves KU to much. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

BShark said:

Self isn't doing it though, for whatever reason. I kind of wonder if Cunliffe is going to transfer again. :/ :thinking:

That would suck. Play not even half a season, transfer, sit a year, play half a season, transfer. Kids gotta stick it out sometime you would think. I'm sure its on his mind as he sits there and doesn't play, everyone wants to play. If he's really bought in he'll stick around and work on his game. I'm sure he'll get a fresh slate this off-season to prove himself

I hope he doesn't to be clear. I mean how much would he have to hate it here to give up a year of eligibility and sit out again? That's pretty rough.

I'm interested to see how it all shakes out this off season.

I hope that Cunliffe's camp realizes that he has all the potential in the world, mostly due to his athleticism. That if he sticks it out at KU, he will either be a starter or the 6th man at KU in two seasons. And, that his best path to the NBA or a high paying contract in Europe, is staying at KU. He trains with one of the top S&C coaches every day, in one of the best basketball facilities in the country, all while practicing against future professional players every single day. If he wants to transfer, he should really just redshirt next season here at KU, bust his ass and take advantage of the facilities, and then see if he would start or be a rotation player at KU two years from now. If he isn't, he could grad transfer and play right away somewhere else. I'm sure at that point he would basically be forced out anyways.

Sam does have the option to transfer at year end though, because he didn't use his redshirt this last transfer. I would not be surprised if that is the route he goes. I do not think it is his best option, as I mentioned above.

Cunliffe certainly looks cryo iced.

Does he drive a Dodge Charger? 😏

Self can change quickly though.

He could blow cold on Silvio again—not likely but a significant possibility, if the last game’s fouls and TOs habituate.

Mitch seemed to struggle a bit, too.

All non starters are on a micron thin bubble. None of them are shoe ins not to be recruited over. None of them are contributing enough to endure excessive fouls and TOs.

If their fouls and TOs trend up two games, their PT appears to decline.

Or an injury can happen.

BShark said:

I hope he doesn't to be clear. I mean how much would he have to hate it here to give up a year of eligibility and sit out again? That's pretty rough.

I'm interested to see how it all shakes out this off season.

He could end up being a graduate transfer if he never moves into the rotation or starts.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

BShark said:

I hope he doesn't to be clear. I mean how much would he have to hate it here to give up a year of eligibility and sit out again? That's pretty rough.

I'm interested to see how it all shakes out this off season.

He could end up being a graduate transfer if he never moves into the rotation or starts.

Not eligible for it yet unless he's graduating 2 years early..

Kcmatt7 said:

I hope that Cunliffe's camp realizes that he has all the potential in the world, mostly due to his athleticism. That if he sticks it out at KU, he will either be a starter or the 6th man at KU in two seasons. And, that his best path to the NBA or a high paying contract in Europe, is staying at KU. He trains with one of the top S&C coaches every day, in one of the best basketball facilities in the country, all while practicing against future professional players every single day. If he wants to transfer, he should really just redshirt next season here at KU, bust his ass and take advantage of the facilities, and then see if he would start or be a rotation player at KU two years from now. If he isn't, he could grad transfer and play right away somewhere else. I'm sure at that point he would basically be forced out anyways.

Sam does have the option to transfer at year end though, because he didn't use his redshirt this last transfer. I would not be surprised if that is the route he goes. I do not think it is his best option, as I mentioned above.

He would have to sit another year and lose another year of Eligibility. Sit one more to play 1 season.. Can't see that being something they want to do but who knows we've seen plenty of dumb choices

@BShark I would have liked to have seen Sam get a few minutes against Baylor. I love how well Garrett plays defense and hustles, but he is becoming a liability on offense as teams no longer respect his shot (he seems to have no confidence in it either.

@BeddieKU23

At the end of the season we will have 3 years left of eligibility and 3 calendar years to complete them. At the end of the season he will have been in college 2 years, so, if he graduates in 4 years, that is 2 years after the season, he will gave 1 year of eligibility and 1 calendar year left...like Coleby did

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BeddieKU23

At the end of the season we will have 3 years left of eligibility and 3 calendar years to complete them.

I'm not sure about this. Heard otherwise from other people and he is listed as a RS SO on KU athletics official site. Confusing tbh.

@BeddieKU23 I didn't think he used his redshirt on the transfer and just used the 1 year of eligibility.

But perhaps I was wrong. I guess his best options are basically stick it out and see if he can crack the rotation, or be a grad transfer.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BeddieKU23

At the end of the season we will have 3 years left of eligibility and 3 calendar years to complete them. At the end of the season he will have been in college 2 years, so, if he graduates in 4 years, that is 2 years after the season, he will gave 1 year of eligibility and 1 calendar year left...like Coleby did

I don't believe that's correct. He's a Soph. currently. He didn't finish a full year at ASU however lost his freshman status leaving and becoming eligible after the Fall semester this year.

Silvio is in the same camp. He lost his fall semester but is playing the spring and will be a Soph in the fall.

@BeddieKU23 Yeah. With Silvio it doesn't really matter at least, because I don't think he stays more than 3 seasons (2 and a half in this case) tops. Plus this half year should really give him a leg up next year. Possibly getting him to be able to go pro if Self is able to land another killer haul in 19. As Silvio going pro is imo the only way possible to land JRE and Hurt.

BShark said:

@BeddieKU23 Yeah. With Silvio it doesn't really matter at least, because I don't think he stays more than 3 seasons (2 and a half in this case) tops. Plus this half year should really give him a leg up next year. Possibly getting him to be able to go pro if Self is able to land another killer haul in 19. As Silvio going pro is imo the only way possible to land JRE and Hurt.

It sounds like Silvio and his camp want him in the NBA after next year. We'll see whether he is good enough after next season to make that happen

@BeddieKU23

It does get very confusing. This link ↗ lists him just like Moore who after this season will have 3 years of eligibility and 3 calendar years.

Kcmatt7 said:

@BeddieKU23 I didn't think he used his redshirt on the transfer and just used the 1 year of eligibility.

But perhaps I was wrong. I guess his best options are basically stick it out and see if he can crack the rotation, or be a grad transfer.

I'm not sure of the exact rules that apply to Cunliffe because transferring mid-season complicates things. I do know that when he transferred from ASU to KU he lost the remaining eligibility he had as a freshman. Sitting the required year per the transfer rules could technically not be considered a red-shirt. If KU had redshirted him for the spring semester of 2018 there's a chance he would have had 3 years left to play 3 having sat 1 calendar year + another half semester. As it stands he'll go into 2018-19 year with 2 years to play 2 unless he was injured and applied for a medical waiver (something KJ Lawson received for example) or redshirted another full year either at KU or somewhere else.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BeddieKU23

It does get very confusing. This link ↗ lists him just like Moore who after this season will have 3 years of eligibility and 3 calendar years.

Interesting. It is confusing.

If Sam had sat this semester out I believe that would have counted as a redshirt year (transfer year + half a semester). He could redshirt next season but that sounds silly to play half a season then red-shirt and have to sit another year out.

@BeddieKU23

As I understand it, after this season he will have completed one season of play (2 halves) and one of red shirt sitting (again, 2 halves) and used up 2 of the 5 calendar years, so he will have 3 years of eligibility and 3 calendar years...but I could be wrong.

Just like cf did at WSU. Only 2 1/2 years left then

I'd be bummed to watch a smaller freshman who can't shoot 3s, FGs or PTs (Garrett) starting and getting 20 minutes a game while I sit on the bench, maybe to the point of leaving if I was Sam. Again, I don't see practices, I guess Garrett is a better defender, and I'm not a coach, but sure seems we could find a guard who offers a bit more upside.

StLJhawk said:

I'd be bummed to watch a smaller freshman who can't shoot 3s, FGs or PTs (Garrett) starting and getting 20 minutes a game while I sit on the bench, maybe to the point of leaving if I was Sam. Again, I don't see practices, I guess Garrett is a better defender, and I'm not a coach, but sure seems we could find a guard who offers a bit more upside.

From all that we hear the staff loves Marcus which we all know can play a big part in someone playing vs not playing. Continuing to invest minutes in him now seems like an investment in his and the team's future. We rarely see him making mistakes turning the ball over, or being out of position defensively for a freshman.

He is shooting 57% from the field on 2's, not all is lost for him there. I do agree though there are times especially recently where his lack of offensive ability is appearing to be a major weakness. Teams have scouted accordingly. It's definitely a mental thing for him right now. All we can hope is he finds a way out of this

@StLJhawk

Cunliffe averaged 25 mpg for a second tier ASU team and probably saw his time not increasing there. Unrealistic to think he would transfer to an elite program and expect equal or more time. No question that missing the fist part of the season where all the experimenting and tweaking is done hurt him, on the other hand, he was not particularly impressive in the Italian tour either.

@JayHawkFanToo ASU wasn't particularly good a year ago, but he started and averaged 25mpg/10ppg/5rbg as a freshman - that's pretty decent production for a frosh at a Power 5 conference school. Not sure why is his mind it wouldn't have been realistic to think he would start as a sophomore, or at least getting meaningful game time. I really, really doubt he would have transferred if he had any inkling that it would mostly be DNP - Coach's Decision. What is befuddling to me - acknowledging that I don't see him in practice every day - is that a guy who scored in double digits in games against UNLV and Kentucky (albeit not efficiently) and seems to have some athleticism couldn't be giving us some decent minutes off the bench, even if just a couple of minutes breather, or when one of the other 5 perimeter guys gets a couple of quick fouls or clearly doesn't have their head in the game...

Not efficient and putting up numbers on a bad team are the key. His advanced numbers at ASU were truly awful. They are actually better this year at KU in his very limited time.

I would agree though that not playing at all is a bit odd.

@DCHawker I agree totally. Wish somebody could ask coach.

I think he will play soon but the focus now is getting Silvio into the mix. Room to involve Sam later.

@mayjay yes, I'm quite happy to have us focus on Silvio now too. Still, I feel bad for Sam. I'll stop whining about it though and trust Self to do the right thing.

Jesse Newell‏Verified account @jessenewell

Bill Self says Sam Cunliffe still has a lot to learn from a basketball standpoint. Self says he hasn't performed well in his limited opportunities, both in games and practice.

:thinking:

Poor Sam. The bench it is. Nothing to read from it

BeddieKU23 said:

Poor Sam. The bench it is. Nothing to read from it

!alt text ↗

Sam just got the worst review I have ever read Self reputedly give.

Has Self found another 5-star that wants to decommit, or transfer in?

Is the Jayhawk at center court big?

jaybate 1.0 said:

Sam just got the worst review I have ever read Self reputedly give.

Has Self found another 5-star that wants to decommit, or transfer in?

Is the Jayhawk at center court big?

I already posted this on another KU site but Cunliffe just doesn't strike me as the type that succeeds under Self. The fact that he had a film crew following him around during practice was a warning sign to me.

Plus as mentioned before his advanced stats on a really bad ASU team were not good. I think Self would rather have a hard working underrated 3* even. Jmo.

@BShark

Sam had what????

@jaybate-1-0 If you end up getting your hands on a copy of Beyond the Streak by Jason King you will see many discussions regarding the value of Brady Morningstar. Not just from his teammates, and high praise from coach Self, but from those around the league who identified him as one of the toughest defenders in the league. The book also talks about Selby's foot injury and how he never came back from that.

As far as what EJ and Releford could have done as sophomores against VCU, we will never definitively know. We do know for a fact, however, that they were key role players to a run at the NC in 2012 and then blew a 14 point lead in 8 Minutes against a Michigan team a year later as seniors. Experience usually helps, but it doesn't guarantee anything in March.

@CRH107

CRH107 said:

@BShark

Sam had what????

Before he went to ASU as a freshman he had these hype videos of him working out etc. Comes from a real athletic family.

WOW...Thank you @dylans and @BeddieKU23

@BeddieKU23 of girls!

Apparently he is injured. Comes from Matt Scott.

@dylans wow. Whole bunch of saying nothing and posing with an iPhone.

approxinfinity said:

@dylans wow. Whole bunch of saying nothing and posing with an iPhone.

He has apparently been towing the line, doing and saying the right things at KU. Maybe he got his butt kicked and it adjusted his head better.

15 points for Evansville in an upset bid at Kentucky 👀

Kcmatt7 said:

15 points for Evansville in an upset bid at Kentucky 👀

6-13 shooting including 2-7 from 3. 6 turnovers 0 assists. He'd fit right in on this KU team! :face_with_tears_of_joy:

Lol they beat Kentucky

for a guy that sucks - he sure hit to HUGE free throws to seal it - - nothing but net -- 17 points - - Good for Sam.

Lmao - -ahhh doggone it - - Evansville picked 7-8th in the Missouri Valley. - - Unranked beating # 1 on their home floor - breaks my heart - pretty much lead that game from wire to wire.

Now time to Watch Memphis against Oregon

How many boards did he have?

@Crimsonorblue22 6

Mitch and boys were watching, cheering him on from his Snapchat.

Houston has a big crowd.🤣

Grimes 0-3 from deep. Stunning really.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Houston has a big crowd.🤣

they on ESPN plus ?

@jayballer73 espnu

@BShark he sure isn't playing pt!

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark he sure isn't playing pt!

Expect his dad to be really upset with Sampson. :face_with_tears_of_joy:

I wonder if the Memphis team cares if they might have to forfeit games? My sons have longer undies than that Memphis dude shorts.🤣. What a dork. It's not sexy at all. Right, my other gals on here?

Crimsonorblue22 said:

I wonder if the Memphis team cares if they might have to forfeit games? My sons have longer undies than that Memphis dude shorts.🤣. What a dork. It's not sexy at all. Right, my other gals on here?

dam I can remember wearing shorts just like those back when I was in school - -jumpin - -gee - -hossie - -toads -- I'm old lol

Crimsonorblue22 said:

I wonder if the Memphis team cares if they might have to forfeit games? My sons have longer undies than that Memphis dude shorts.🤣. What a dork. It's not sexy at all. Right, my other gals on here?

Wiseman played they said like 5 minutes tonight - - ARE THEY NUTS? - -if the NCAA doesn't clobber them will be insane - they just blatently defying the NCAA lol

Roy is at the Bulls game tonight. Not sure why other than to watch his player from last year White. Maybe he's recruiting Chicago.

wissox said:

Roy is at the Bulls game tonight. Not sure why other than to watch his player from last year White. Maybe he's recruiting Chicago.

Just supporting Coby. UNC is done for the year probably.

Also. EL EM AY OH YOU KAY

Great stuff, Coby White hits 7 3's in the 4th quarter. Roy going nuts. Walks out on court during White's post game interview, gives him a hug and then walks away.

I’ll always love Roy, he always had great connections with his players

So does Self!

Q with 13, 5 boards, and 3 assists. 1-4 from deep, 2-3 at the line.

🐦 View Tweet

:crying_face:

Sam had a big first half (15 points I believe) but in the last 8 minutes of the game that I watched the only thing he did was make 2 FT's

BeddieKU23 said:

Sam had a big first half (15 points I believe) but in the last 8 minutes of the game that I watched the only thing he did was make 2 FT's

True but they were BIG - - BIG - - BIG -- BIG HUGE FTREE THROWS clinched the game - boy Kentucky is gonna be dealing this for awhile. - it's Evansville was a 25 1/2 point underdog -- 3 rd largest payout on the betting line for quite sometime - -just a classic wet our pants cluster - Kentucky was miserable

He still barely tries on defense. Never a Self type player

Sam would’ve helped this team last season in Vick departure.

@jayballer73

Yes they were big FT's.