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Two Free throw attempts for a visiting team in 40 minutes of hard fought, physical Division One basketball with the home team coached by a hard nosed, defense first coach, desperately trying to get his team a W to try to find a way to stay in contention for a 14th consecutive conference title.

Who believes Coach Self stood in the locker room before the game and said, "Boys, I've got a new strategy for the game tonight. Don't foul them. Don't put them on the FT line. This is the key to beating WVU. Don't foul them. Well, maybe two FTAs, but absolutely no more. Don't get after them. Don't foul them. Don't guard them if it means fouling them and putting WVU on the FT line. DON'T DO IT and we win this baby by 6-10 points easy."

It seems a bit of a stretch to me. Self has done a lot of audacious things in his time. But who really thinks Selfian audacity explains the 2 FTAs WVU was awarded?

Scully, baby, I wanna believe!!!

But I just can't.

Two measly free throw attempts for West Virginia.

Fugggeddabout Huggie getting bounced out of the game at the end, as if to put a coup'd gras on the home job.

Two measly free throw attempts.

In 40 minutes.

I have never looked a gift horse bearing a much needed win in the mouth before, but I have to do exactly that, after watching this second, apparently farcical, near professional wrestling grade, come-from-double-digits-behind, utterly preposterous KU win over WVU.

Anyone that thinks for a picosecond that this appeared to be a fairly refereed game likely also believes that Marine radioman and CIA fake defector alum Lee Harvey Oswald rocked that Mannlicher faster and more accurately than trained snipers could; that the WTC VII was NOT dropped in a controlled demolition and was instead dropped by pigeon droppings; and that the Pentagon was hit by an airliner that archived NSA and Russian spy satellite imagery will one day co-confirm, if we are not all destroyed by nuclear war before then.

Just two lousy free throws for West Virginia University?

Well, that was some kind of incredible KU defense, wasn't it?

We can't blame it on the WVU offense, because, well, because the WVU offense played pretty well.

Self needs to bottle this new KU defense.

And then use it EVERY game.

This new KU defense is the stuff of legendary, come-from-behind victories.

Let's commemorate it to posterity as the "Two Free Throw Defense" aka the TFTD.

Everyone, me included, has said this team has had an incredible run of bad breaks and is about do for some good luck.

Well, it got a heaping, stinking, Allen Field House sized pile of luck today.

Two FTAs for the Mountaineers.

Self once famously and rightly said, "Amazing things happen in this building."

Well, its time to update and amend that memorable quote of his.

Now, its time to say: "Ridiculously unbelievable and preposterously improbable things happen in that building, too."

The Two Free Throw Defense happens in that building.

Quick, someone, help me out from this mountain of scepticism that weights me down.

Tell me that, oh, once or twice a season, visiting teams in Allen Field House are only granted two charity tosses in the Monarch of the Midlands. Tell me it happens every year.

Ready, set, go...fill in how many times a season opposing teams get 2 FTAs in 40 minutes?

Like Fox Mulder, I want to believe.

The TFTD is so staggeringly effective that an opponent can shoot 26 treys and make 50% of them, while KU shoots 22 and makes 31.8% and KU can win!!!

The TFTD is so darned effective, KU can shoot nearly the same FG%, actually be -3 on the glass, and still win it.

Well, I don't want to oversimplify. Nooooooo.

KU was in fact +5 on steals, +1 on blocks, and made 5 fewer TOs than the Mountaineers.

Yo, Huggie, what in the hell are you complaining about?

KU got 35 FTAs and your team only got 2 FTAs; that happens all the time, doesn't it?

Huggins and the Mountaineers didn't just get homed.

The got MacMansioned.

Hell, they got subdivisioned.

They got high-rise condominiumed!!!!

What did Bob Huggins do to deserve this sort of treatment of his team from the refs in Lawrence, Kansas?

Is Huggins under investigation by Bob Mueller for collusion with the Russians, now that nothing appears to be turning up about Trump and the Russians?

Is Huggie under investigation by the Fibbee agent/agent runner shizzle?

What would make referees see and call only two shooting fouls in a fast paced, 40 minute game in which they saw and called enough fouls for 35 FTAs for KU?

Did I say I am flabbergasted?

I am also frankly ashamed that something so apparently bogus occurred on a court named for the man who invented the game in the greatest arena in college basketball on an ESPN game day. Well, wait a minute. ESPN is irrelevant.

I love beating Huggie. I love bitching that his teams play too rough and try to intimidate opponents too much. I love beating his strategy with Self Ball.

But how can we say we beat them, when the game was refereed like that?

As always, one can say the referees made bad calls both ways. I can think of another 5-10 plays where KU was butchered and got no calls.

But the bottom line is that WVU faced nearly an entire game of no calls.

Disgraceful. Just disgraceful.

The game was de-refereed.

At least that is how it appeared to moi.

We should all play like Sargent Schultz — “I know NOTH-ING!”

It is embarrassing. If I that happened to the Jayhawks, there would be 1000 posts about it already. There is no explanation for it.

OR, is it that we are just so used to referees calling games "even" that when they called it as it actually were, there was this discrepancy?

Nah...

35-2. Even with the Tech Fouls and the Late Game Gimmees it was 27-2. How can that be!

Bothers me not a whit.

For people that actually know the game of basketball it’s not surprising, KU had several games early in the year here at AFH where they shot single digit Fts. Why? Simple they settled for jump shots and weren’t driving to the goal. Just like WV did tonight, according to the KC star, WV attempted just 6, yes only 6 of their 61 shots at the rim. They are lucky we didn’t shoot more with the obvious fouls Bilas pointed out that were misssed, honestly I thought KU got away with 2 fouls.

@kjayhawks exactly right! Marcus got hit on the head, svi got screwed on 2 calls. Huggs didn't complain til the very end. Saw the weakest flop of the year!

@Crimsonorblue22 Konate's offensive goal tend was a big omission, too. And it was TWO hands, yet!

Even with the fouls that were called on WVU, there were a number that were missed. Jay Bilas pointed out some of them. The final number should probably have been about 42-4. The 'Eers have been mugging other teams' players for years; a crew finally called the majority of them in a game.

Hold on just a second. We need to look at the numbers in context before stating as a fact that the refereeing was one sided.

The foul count itself was 26 for WVU and 14 for KU. The last 4 fouls against WVU were in the last 8 seconds of the game which makes the count for basically the entire game a more realistic 22 to 14. When you consider that the average for WVUk games is 21 to 17, then the foul count is not that out of the norm.

Now, we know that until a team gets into the bonus or the foul is not committed in the act of shooting then no free throws are awarded. WVU was shooting lights out from the outside and not taking it to the hoop, which normally happens when the outside shots are going in, so most of the fouls KU was called for were of the non-shooting variety while KU was not hitting from the outside so it was penetrating a lot more and when it got fouled I was during the act of shooting resulting in free throws.

Were there bad calls? Sure, there always are but it went both ways. Bilas even commented that fouls were not being called on WVU.

When you look at it in context it really is not as bad as just saying 35-2...wouldn’t you all agree?

@mayjay I didn't see an instant replay of svi or dg that was thrown out of bounds at the end, did you? Hard to tell from my seat, crowd was mad!

Self even said they shot a ton of 3s and we drove, drove, drove. Perhaps Huggies thugball massive fouling and mauling style finally caught up to him?

Live by the free, die by the free.

However, Dok did foul the guy at the end when Higgins screwed Huggins.

more context—that’s the fewest ft shots by WVU since 1906.

I wonder what the worst ft disparity is in Ncaa history ?

HighEliteMajor said:

We should all play like Sargent Schultz — “I know NOTH-ING!”

Hogan's Heroes is pretty funny. :D

@JayHawkFanToo excellent post. :100: with you on this one.

We can try to rationalize it but it was just very one-sided officiating down the stretch, when we made our run. For example, go to 7:05 of second half. Doke dunks and gets a “barely a touch” foul call. Our next trip down at 6:29 a completely phantom block call on a Vick drive. At 5:41 Svi totally grabs a WVU player’s arm on a rebound, no call. Then at 5:00 280 pound Doke completely flops, refs call WVU foul on a Doke screen. At 1:43 it looked like Doke hit the WVU player in the face on his shot, his arms not vertical, no call.

@HighEliteMajor What do you make of the announcers repeatedly saying the calls were horrible in WV favor? You don't hear that often, especially not in KU's favor. Were some calls missed? Yes, esp the last block by Dok that was a clear foul, but I think extreme fouling by Huggy finally backfired.

@HighEliteMajor I think you could find a compable handful of calls that weren't called on WV.

Having a team that shoots lots of 3s and mauls people against a team that doesn't guard 3 shooters and drives a lot seems like the right formula for this foul total doesn't it? Throw in AFH and their coach getting double T'd.

I do think that calls went against them but as @JayHawkFanToo said, it's not nearly as egregious as the 35-2 number indicates.

@approxinfinity i don’t have a big issue with the first 3/4 of the game. I think the analysis of that above is pretty solid. But I would suggest to start at the 8:00 mark of the second half. We’re down by 10 I believe. Then assess for just that time period. It seemed to me that really everything went our way.

@Fightsongwriter I watched the entire second half without the benefit of sound, or the influence of the announcers. I was watching the second half at a restaurant, then rewatched this morning again without sound.

The worst missed call was probably when Garrett got whacked in the head on a drive.

Lane violation on the front end of a one and one for wvu too.

I re-watched the game. As far a egregious fouls not called there were at least two and a goal tend against KU (Garrett getting whacked in the head and Svi getting throw out of bounds by Carter at the end) not called and at least one against WVU (Dok’s block at the end) that were not called. Also one bad foul called on Dok when Kontae fell over him on the block late. WVU had a 5 point possession curtesy of the refs, it’s not like one team got all the calls. WVU drove the ball to the hoop less than 10% of the time, which makes sense when you’re raining threes, but doesn’t result in fouls being called.

@BShark And that exact same play has happened to Devonte a couple times this year. Wonder why we can't get that obvious call?

When ESPN...yes, ESPN...says...the refs need to start calling all these fouls on WVU and not just warning them not to do it..or words to that effect, then you know refereeind did not favor KU.

@HighEliteMajor as far as more fouls being called at the end, this is normal. When players that play tight defense, like WVU does, get tired they get sloppy and cannot move fast and foul more often than not. You mentioned several calls that favored KU but there are as many that went the other way. Most of the early fouls called on WVU were in the act of shooting while penetrating and resulted in FTs being awarded while most of the ones called on KU were not in the act of shooting with no FTs awarded.

@HighEliteMajor thanks for breakdown. I didn't get to see the 2nd half, but other than the actual FTA disparity, doesn't the foul count avg and style of play factor into that?

Weren't we discussing in our non-conference portion of our season our lack of FTA due to jump shooting approach? We made a conscious decision to start driving and getting to the line. Seems by many accounts the very same factors were at play in offensive approach yesterday. With missed calls both ways. Bills was particularly calling it out in the first half. @jaybate-1-0

I refuse to feel sorry for Huggins and WVU since they use a foul so much that refs become self-conscious about blowing the whistle.

@JayHawkFanToo Yes, I understand the dynamic of fouls, and defense, and all of that. Thank you. I have not said anything about a FT disparity. So nothing you said in response relates to my comments. I'm referring to the last 8 minutes.

@HighEliteMajor my current streaming approach with Sling is not working out for catching any replay.

I can't figure out why the ESPN package with Sling does not include KU MBB replays. I'm blaming SZ and our contract.

@Bwag

I am there with you. I might try Direct TV, they have promotion going for $10 per month for 3 months. Then, I will switch to YouTube TV that is now finally available on Roku, 3 streams, lots of Chanel’s including ESPN and Fox, lots of local station carried and unlimited recording for $35 per month.

@JayHawkFanToo that DTV for 3 may scratch the itch. Then I'll cancel because I don't need it for anything but KU Bball.

Summary: They fouled more due to our driving vs. them shooting 3s. This affected the FT shooting numbers as well. The FT shooting difference was skewed somewhat due to the last few minutes. Due to their style of play, I saw many grabs, holds, etc. that were not called on WVU. IMO, this is typical for a WVU game. The last 8 mins. ....we got the benefit of the calls, no question. I can understand why Huggins was so upset. The referring is inconsistent. Over the long haul it should even out. "And that' all I have to say about that."

@Hawk8086 That is hitting the nail on the head.

Wow -we played unbelievable defense. - -Yes there were calls missed. - - -Sorry but yes even with all their 3pt attempts- - - and as much trouble as we have had defending all year -WOW what a quick turnaround. - - We all know now that we have just added a fresh 50 gallon barrel of fuel about how we get the calls. - Yep missed calls both ways - -But man don't care how you twist it - -TWO free throw attempts for an entire game? TWO? kind of hard to absorb.

Then if you were to watch at half and listened - you would of heard Jay Williams little shot - -" can we get some fouls called - - can we get some fouls called " - -doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out what he was talking about there. - I fully understand about the 3pt shooting and agree - BUT yet with the physicality on the inside there had to be more then 2 attempts for the game for WV. - this for sure gives us a yet another really bad look for games at Allen Field house and favorable calls.

Now on the other hand for all the WV fans that cry about how KU pays off the officals - - umm news flash - -The Conference assigns these officials - -not KU - -KU has nothing to do with who is assigned to these games so get over yourselves on that. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

kjayhawks said:

For people that actually know the game of basketball it’s not surprising, KU had several games early in the year here at AFH where they shot single digit Fts. Why? Simple they settled for jump shots and weren’t driving to the goal. Just like WV did tonight, according to the KC star, WV attempted just 6, yes only 6 of their 61 shots at the rim. They are lucky we didn’t shoot more with the obvious fouls Bilas pointed out that were misssed, honestly I thought KU got away with 2 fouls.

Hmmm, how to put this?

I know the game some and I can do basic math, too, which it appears that some persons that imply they know the game apparently cannot.

2 FTAs is ONE THIRD as many as 6 FTAs!!!!!!!

ONE THIRD as many FTAs stands out a statistical anomaly IMHO!!!

But of course that is not the crucial comparison, is it?

The crucial comparison is:

KU 35 FTAs

WVU 2 FTAs

I have been following the college game since about 1960. What year is it? Ah, I remember, its 2018. That's about 58 years, or so.

I don't ever recall a D1 game in which one team was awarded 2 FTAs and the other was awarded 35 FTAs. I am not saying it NEVER happened, because never is for suckers, and I can't recall all the D1 games ever played during that time. But I am saying I don't ever recall one game with that distribution of FTAs.

WVU got .057 of the FTAs KU got!

And here is the case against your argument probably being correct, except in some universe of phenomenally remote statistical possibilities like the one where WTC VII fell because planes hit other buildings.

First, KU had 14 PFs called on them, so its not like KU was not guarding hard and engaging in a lot of contact. It was more like they were guarding hard whenever a foul would NOT trigger a FTA, but not guarding hard and contesting shots, whenever a FTA would be triggered. Hmm. I just don't recall a Self Defense team not contesting shots to this great of an extent, do you? I mean, as you say, even on a really lax day of defense, KU, or other teams, commit 6 fouls triggering FTAs, right?

Second, WVU took only 26 treys out of 61 FGAs; that means WVU shot 35 FGAs inside the trey stripe. Let me repeat that: THIRTY FIVE FGAS INSIDE THE TREY STRIPE. Wow! Did KU's Self Defense really contest so few of 35 FGAs inside the stripe that they only triggered 2 shooting fouls?

Third, KU often takes between 20-30 treys and never gets only 2 FTAs that I recall. Doesn't this put this event out in the Archon Alien realm of statistical anomalies?

This refereeing appears to deserve some review by an appropriate oversight body in the mind of at least one person that knows at least a little something about the game. Me.

But then I am old fashioned. :-)

@Fightsongwriter

I would modify your comments this way.

Live by Two FTA refereeing, then die by it.

@JayHawkFanToo

I disagree.

KU 35 FTAs

WVU 2 FTAs

These are apples and apples comparison.

Unconflated.

Completely in context of FTAs.

Completely unconflated.

Next.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@Bwag

I am there with you. I might try Direct TV, they have promotion going for $10 per month for 3 months. Then, I will switch to YouTube TV that is now finally available on Roku, 3 streams, lots of Chanel’s including ESPN and Fox, lots of local station carried and unlimited recording for $35 per month.

I've been using Hulu live, it works pretty well and I do get to see replays.

jayballer73 said:

Wow -we played unbelievable defense. - -Yes there were calls missed. - - -Sorry but yes even with all their 3pt attempts- - - and as much trouble as we have had defending all year -WOW what a quick turnaround. - - We all know now that we have just added a fresh 50 gallon barrel of fuel about how we get the calls. - Yep missed calls both ways - -But man don't care how you twist it - -TWO free throw attempts for an entire game? TWO? kind of hard to absorb.

Then if you were to watch at half and listened - you would of heard Jay Williams little shot - -" can we get some fouls called - - can we get some fouls called " - -doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out what he was talking about there. - I fully understand about the 3pt shooting and agree - BUT yet with the physicality on the inside there had to be more then 2 attempts for the game for WV. - this for sure gives us a yet another really bad look for games at Allen Field house and favorable calls.

Now on the other hand for all the WV fans that cry about how KU pays off the officals - - umm news flash - -The Conference assigns these officials - -not KU - -KU has nothing to do with who is assigned to these games so get over yourselves on that. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Until/unless this game is objectively reviewed, by an appropriate oversight body, all I can say is: SOMEONE appeared very sore at Huggins and WVU, and appeared to have a score to settle, and appeared to settle it with a swallowed whistle.

But I am a reasonable board rat and am the first to admit that statistical anomalies can happen, and that freakish occurrences can be reviewed with 20/20 hindsight and objectivity and be revealed to be exactly that--statistical anomalies.

So: if appropriate oversight were exercised and a review of the game tapes reveals that it was just some freakish anomaly that can occur over more than a century of college basketball, well, okay, then I am okay with what ever is decided.

In any case, this game should go down in Ripley's Believe It or Not!

And be included in a video called "The Ten Freakiest Anomalies in College Basketball History.

And if it weren't to be found to be one of the 10 freakiest anomalies, then I sure as heck am interested to learn the other ten.

Rock Chalk!

@jaybate-1-0 6 of WVU's 61 shot attempts were at the rim. Not a recipe to get to the line and something we were bemoaning about the current KU team recently.

BShark said:

@jaybate-1-0 6 of WVU's 61 shot attempts were at the rim. Not a recipe to get to the line and something we were bemoaning about the current KU team recently.

What he said plus I had on my lucky hat! :)

@dylans Please keep wearing this hat every game. Tia.

All I'm saying about it is this - if KU would have had 35 free throw attemps and WVU only had 2, we would be under some sort of NCAA investigation. Probably the FBI, KBI and Mayberry RFD would be involved.

WHAT? Wait........

BShark said:

@jaybate-1-0 6 of WVU's 61 shot attempts were at the rim. Not a recipe to get to the line and something we were bemoaning about the current KU team recently.

I appreciate you doing some digging and bringing that to my attention. Still...

How many games, during the time that we were moaning, did KU get 2 FTAs in a hard fought, 40 minute game against a physical defense?

I am REALLY not trying to be a dick here.

But trying to justify these 2 FTAs is something even my old hero, Gerry Spense, attorney at law, would have been daunted by.

You have to be very careful with trying to argue that these calling only these 2 FTAs were justified.

I thought about it a significant amount before I posted about it.

I thought of many of the things other posters have suggested as explanations, but I just couldn't persuade myself of any of them.

I don't like posting about what appears biased officiating, especially when it comes out in our favor. :-)

I used to officiate a little and so I am quite sympathetic to the referees' situations.

But I don't recall ever calling a game myself, where one side had 35 FTAs and the other had 2 FTAs. And I wasn't a whistle swallower and I bounced a few coaches out of games. Granted this was junior high and city league officiating and so it doesn't really compare with D1, or even high school officiating in standards of excellence of officials. But I took my humble officiating duties seriously and I tried my best to be fair. And I never refereed a game where I had an ax to grind with a coach. And I never dished 35 FTAs to one team and 2 FTAs to another over five years of doing quite a lot of games (sometimes six in one day), while working my way through college.

This appears really a very hard, globular chunk without a very good explanation, other than a random statistical anomaly.

This is why I suggest the game be reviewed by the appropriate oversight group.

If it review suggests it is a statistical anomaly, fine.

If it were not, D1 should not tolerate this sort of thing.

This sort of thing did not even happen against KU in Columbia Missouri that I recall.

@jaybate-1.0 This KU team has 6 games this year with single digit free throw attempts. Never as low as two but still. There would probably be some more but games like A&M we had 11 fta but 3 of those were at the end of the game when A&M fouled on purpose.

Also, tifwiw but this is somehow only the 7th largest free throw disparity this season in college hoops.

@jaybate-1.0 I was listening to Bilas pontificate on the disparity during the game. He, or the other guy, said something like Nothing like this has happened in the past 10-20 years?

I dunno man. I also felt like WVU didn't drive to the lane to get fouls! The stat I heard was 6 drives to lane for fouls. 6 times.

I'm gonna go watch the game again and keep track my damm (sic) self but to me, if you only drive to lane for a foul or an and one 6 GD times, then 2FT's is all your gonna get!

Hey, I like Huggy bear. He's a great coach for the Big 12. Great coach for WVU, for the CBB game. Period. But he over reacted.

I mean, you said it yourself, there were 5-10 other fouls on WVU that could have, should have been called but weren't.

Devonte' said himself that they were getting fouled a lot more than were actually called. SO IMO. Huggy was telling his players to "bring out the tire irons" as you so eloquently put it sometimes.
Great quote by the way. Its on point.

My point is, after I rewatch the game and count how many WVU drives for fouls should have been called, that KU just flat out outplayed them. Even when they were behind.

I will say one thing real quick.

DOKE!! That boy, he flopped so hard one time!!!

Yah, that was so funny. OMG. WVU guy guarding him pushes him, it wouldn't have knocked me over and Doke goes sliding on his butt.
Btw, I'm about the same size as a horse racing jockey.

I absolutely died laughing!!

JayHawkFanToo said:

Hold on just a second. We need to look at the numbers in context before stating as a fact that the refereeing was one sided.

The foul count itself was 26 for WVU and 14 for KU. The last 4 fouls against WVU were in the last 8 seconds of the game which makes the count for basically the entire game a more realistic 22 to 14. When you consider that the average for WVUk games is 21 to 17, then the foul count is not that out of the norm.

Now, we know that until a team gets into the bonus or the foul is not committed in the act of shooting then no free throws are awarded. WVU was shooting lights out from the outside and not taking it to the hoop, which normally happens when the outside shots are going in, so most of the fouls KU was called for were of the non-shooting variety while KU was not hitting from the outside so it was penetrating a lot more and when it got fouled I was during the act of shooting resulting in free throws.

Were there bad calls? Sure, there always are but it went both ways. Bilas even commented that fouls were not being called on WVU.

When you look at it in context it really is not as bad as just saying 35-2...wouldn’t you all agree?

BOOM. That's whats up right there JayhawkFan.

Lulufulu said:

@jaybate-1.0 I was listening to Bilas pontificate on the disparity during the game. He, or the other guy, said something like Nothing like this has happened in the past 10-20 years?

Which is just outright not true as I mentioned already but it bears repeating. Only the 7th biggest foul disparity this season.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@mayjay I didn't see an instant replay of svi or dg that was thrown out of bounds at the end, did you? Hard to tell from my seat, crowd was mad!

Missed that, I think. They didn't do a very good job of showing the sequence that led Huggy to inviting his own early exit.

@nuleafjhawk Don't forget the Keystone Kops.

What do you bet Trae Young gets to the line 12 to 15 times Monday night? That will be because he drives constantly, not because of an instruction to the refs to even up for yesterday's game, but some will no doubt see causation.

@Lulufulu

I am glad to hear from you, even though we disagree quite a bit on this. But because you have made your case to me you have provoked me into thinking more about this and I may have an explanation of what may have happened. But before proffering my idea, I will address some of your points.

Driving the rim is not the only way to get a shooting foul. KU in several different seasons has mastered driving into guys 10 feet from the basket to get fouled on what I now like to call hard pull-ups. Certainly WVU guys were shooting pull ups and some mid range J's and those can be used to draw fouls also. But they weren't being called for sure after the first six fouls. I suspect Huggins thinks that sort of driving into people 10-15 feet away is not very manly way to play the game. He believes tire iron fouling is honorable.

Regardless, as I said, once you get past 6 fouls each half every foul is at least a 1&1 shooting foul, if I recall correctly. Again, WVU only got 2 FTAs.

Now, I fully agree that Huggins brought out the tire irons this game.

During the game I was utterly pissed off about all the "flagrant" fouls that were not called flagrant, and all the no calls that should have been called. I really feared that Huggie had tipped the game with the tire irons by forcing the refs to send KU to the line so many times for so much of the game. From about 15 to go, it was almost like the refs were getting resentful of Huggins for having his team foul so much and not pull them back when they started calling them on it. Refs don't like it when they call a bunch of fouls to get a game under control and the coach of the team that is doing the most egregious tire iron style fouling doesn't pull his guys back. I believe the referees thinking would go something like this: hmmmm, we've called a piss pot full of fouls and stopped the game endlessly, because of this sunnuvabitch trying to turn this into a football game, so let's see how he likes this: we'll just not call any shooting fouls on KU and see how long his guys can hang on to the lead, when his guys start missing as many as KU's guys have been, because of all the rough stuff. And, oh yeah, tough guy, we're going to keep KU on the FT line and the moment you blow up we're going to T you out of here!

Now that you have made me process this again, I am starting to think that this must be what happened.

These refs have probably called a number of WVU games where Huggins and his teams have pulled out the tire irons the same way Tom Izzo and his teams do. We don't see all the other WVU games. We just see Huggie do it twice a season and some times, when he has no chance of winning, and out of collegial respect for a hall of fame grade coach, Huggie even pulls his punches with his team. But this was a must win game for both teams and Huggie knew he had a chance of fouling up the game so much that the refs would finally just swallow their whistles to get the game over; that would favor Huggie. So: Huggins just went to the trunk of his black 57 Chevy with the flames on it, pulled out a full array of tire irons, handed them out to his team and said something vaguely like: two go in one comes out. Foul'em till the refs can't call anymore fouls and then keep fouling; that sort of game we win for sure, even in Allen Field House, even with the home whistle. We aren't going to get a fair whistle at KU, so let's make them call so many fouls early they finally have to stop calling the fouls and let us play them straight up.

Well, my hypothesis is that the refs were sick of Huggie's strategy. They had seen it too many times before. They call it getting worked by a coach. Refs don't like feeling like they've been worked. They don't mind back and forth with a coach and they don't mind having a mistake called to their attention, but they hate it when a coach takes it into a level of roughness that they have used their whistles firmly to say, no, we are not going to have that kind of game today.

Maybe these refs had just seen Huggies act once too many times.

Maybe these refs looked down at the blue lettering on the court that spelled Naismith and they just decided they had finally been worked once too many times.

When I look at it this way, as an old referee, and when I think about the referees saying, look, we've made it clear to this guy, and we've cut him some slack, but he just doesn't get it.

Maybe they just decided to take the game into their own hands to keep Huggie from taking it into his.

Now that's something I can relate to.

Referees rightfully have great discretion in how to bring a game and its participants into line and to impose fairness on the competition.

Refs exist to make the game a fair competition.

Maybe the refs thought, so you want to take this junk to a point where we HAVE to swallow our whistles, eh? Well, we'll just swallow our damned whistles for you right now with 18 minutes to go and see how you like them apples, Bob.

And Bob didn't like it.

And they hung the Ts on him and sent him to the showers.

And did you notice that not one of the referees appeared to try to reason with their fellow referees to revisit what went on, and not one of them seemed the least bit ruffled about Bob's tirade, nor did they give him a second look as he left.

Hey, @Lulufulu, I'm feeling better already!!!!! :-)

Maybe this glass is half full, after all.

Rock Chalk!

mayjay said:

What do you bet Trae Young gets to the line 12 to 15 times Monday night? That will be because he drives constantly, not because of an instruction to the refs to even up for yesterday's game, but some will no doubt see causation.

I will bet that I for one will anticipate no future appearance of wrong doing in D1, because I am fully satisfied by the amount of appearance of wrong doing I get without anticipating anything.

I will bet that Deuce Young will appear to get the usual whistle breaks "stars" that come prepackaged with hype appear to get in the apparently entertainment value-drenched D1 from time to time (note: this is not anticipating future wrong doing, because in the entertainment value-soaked D1 it appears such enablement of stars does not appear to be inappropriate activity, perhaps somewhat the same as enabling stars in the World Wrestling Federation would not be considered inappropriate.)

I will bet the Deuce comes out of his slump sooner or later, but that he remains a volume shooter.(Note: I don't think the refs have anything to do with his slump, or with him being a volume shooter.)

I will bet that Deuce tries to drive on Devonte Graham (to foul him up), because Devonte has no credible back up and so Self would have to play Vick and Malik as his point guards, which would then force him into playing Garrett on a wing regardless of matchup, something he would not want to have to do for a majority of the game.

I will bet that Self tells Devonte to take as few fouling risks defending Deuce as he can the first 30 minutes to keep his fouls down, although probably he will NOT tell the team to keep the other team's FTAs down to 2. :-)

Next, I will bet that when Deuce gets a couple buckets Self will proably have Devonte sit on Deuce's strong hand, pick him up much farther out and will probably tell him to get a hand in Deuces face if he shoots the three, or let him drive by with his weak hand, because Self has put Mitch, and/or Silvio in the paint for a stretch and they will contest Deuce at the rim and KU's wings will attempt to sag and strip Deuce as he drives down the lane.

I will bet that some one will try to castigate others for being skeptical about events that appear remarkably improbable and then make the nonlinear leap to suggesting that they will anticipate future wrong doing.

Regarding the 12-15 FTAs being related to referee bias, there are enough bizarre anomolies in the recent past that no one needs to anticipate any. They just keep coming without any anticipation. Its like Washington and the Deep State. You don't need to anticipate them doing bad stuff. You just set your alarm, wake up and they've done something else bad. No anticipation required.

But here's the really great part: because of the preceding, there is no need to insinuate others would EVER anticipate this sort of fecal matter in the future, when almost no one anticipates the worst, except Deep State geeks that probably know why Stephen Paddock died in Las Vegas a day after police found dead from suicide in his Mandalay Bay hotel room. No, regular folk just wake up, brew some java, and before they are even fully awake the bad stuff just comes in over the digital transom, as per mind control precepts developed with our tax dollars to be used for destabilizing cultures at home and abroad in the interest of regime change.

(Note: these will all, of course be gentleman's wagers involving no consideration of any kind, or value, and loss of which will only result in metaphorical consumption of crow.)

Rock Chalk!

@jaybate-1.0

So, if one team has a game plan that leads to commiting fouls and the other has one that lead to not fouling, the FTs should still be balanced?

When even the sports writer from the KC Star...we are talking the KU hating KC Start... thinks Huggins has no case you have to conclude the referring was not out of the norm. Look at how many fouls WVU and KU were called until the last 8 second of the game and it is pretty much in line with the average for WVU games.

@JayHawkFanToo

WVU

2 FTAs

Next

@JayHawkFanToo

It occurs to me that you enjoy the folk art of fecal mass polishing.

I am very tolerant of alias' pursuing idiosyncratic interests.

But could you engage in the fecal mass polishing without asking me to call it a precious metal ingot?

Buffer 1

@BShark well, your going to have to forgive me on the actual time line in years, in terms of how long its actually been for such a lopsided foul calling game. Needless to say, its been a while.

Lulufulu said:

@BShark well, your going to have to forgive me on the actual time line in years, in terms of how long its actually been for such a lopsided foul calling game. Needless to say, its been a while.

Duke had a +30 FTA game this year.

@jaybate-1.0 That's exactly what I'm saying!!

I'm mid way through the game right now and my count stands at 13 to 2 on FOR KU on drives to the rim in attempt to catch a foul or an And one. 13 - 2. Plus, in the first half, Bilas called, and correctly ID'd 4 other fouls that should have been called on WVU. 4.

Huggy just brought out the bazookas and grenades in this one.

Ive never been a player or a ref but if you wrap your arms around KU's player and get no foul called, something else must have been going on to distract those refs from chirping that whistle.

@BShark Duke doesn't count!!! :laughing:

I'm kidding. I stand corrected

I don't think anyone even blinks when it happens with Duke lol. They also have a +25 and +26.

@BShark

...and they have not even played WVU. :smile:

Did I see this right? TT plays 3 games over a 6 day period? WOW!

@hawkmoon2020 We have already done this a few times this year and play 3 games in 7 days.

Almost finished with the replay. And, again you guys, I'm just a fan. But, if you drive to the lane to get a basket in the paint and drive for a foul and there is negligible contact, the refs aren't going to call that It has to be obvious contact, right?

I am just not seeing the kind of defensive contact necessary to draw a whistle on KU's end.

I will fully admit to some bias here, because, duh. But I am just not seeing the kind of contact from KU on the defensive end necessary to draw fouls.

@BShark

The red flag to me is not size of the asymmetry. I have seen games where one team gets a ton more FTAs than the other.

I just don't recall a game in 58 years of watching, nor in all the games I refereed over 5 years, where one team only got 2 FTAs.

'Splain that one Lucy!!!!

@Lulufulu

The question remains: how did KU get soooooooo many other fouls called on it, if what you say is true.

Again, KU was whistled for FOURTEEN personal fouls.

WVU was whistled for 26.

It was not that the refs were not whistling fouls on KU.

It was that the refs were not whistling a certain kind of foul on KU.

That's where things get murky.

It was #BIFM Karma in The Phog.

FWIW: Did you feel during the game that there was such a huge discrepancy? I remember looking and seeing that we were already in the bonus midway each half. Huggy plays catch and grab and slap, then almost dares the refs to call all the fouls his guys commit on a regular basis and this time the refs called all the catches, grabs and slaps, as if to say we aren't putting up with it anymore. Higgins is lead on the crews these days and his ego may have been a factor. JMO

@Hawk8086

I can understand why Huggins was so upset. The referring is inconsistent.

Inconsistent to Huggy as in...why are they calling all these fouls on us? We usually get away with the hacking and it is not fair the start calling them now. I better get a “T” or two now so I have an excuse for blowing a double digit lead for the 3rd time in a row against KU. :smiley:

@JayHawkFanToo 2 T's!

@Crimsonorblue22

Thanks for the assist, corrected now. :smile:

@jaybate-1.0 WVU really had 5 free throw opportunities if that makes you feel better.

1 -Konate’s and one.

2,3 -Carter Misses front end of one and one

4,5 - West? misses front end of one and one, but also commits a lane violation so the throw doesn’t count as a miss.

@dylans

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

I wonder how many FTAs KU would have had under your new accounting system?

Still, your new accounting system does not change that in my 58 years of watching college basketball and five years of referee low level competition, I don't recall any team ever having a box score of 2 FTAs regardless of how many one and one's were missed and how many lane violations occurred.

But its still an interesting angle to be considered.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@Hawk8086

I can understand why Huggins was so upset. The referring is inconsistent.

Inconsistent to Huggy as in...why are they calling all these fouls on us? We usually get away with the hacking and it is not fair the start calling them now. I better get a “T” or two now so I have an excuse for blowing a double digit lead for the 3rd time in a row against KU. :smiley:

Now you better be careful here.

Even with the smiley face someone might be tempted to mischaracterize your remark as part of a "narrative."

Or maybe even a "Conspiracy theory."

No, not "conspiracy theory;" that has had its cover blown.

But if anyone tries to smear you with spinning a "narrative", I will rush to your defense on this!

My hunch is that "narrative" will have its cover blown in a few years, after that you won't have to worry. :-)

@Hawk8086

Dang, I can almost buy that.

But then a little voice whispers the following in my ear.

If WVU's style of play was what triggered the 2 FTAs, why hasn't their style of play triggered any other 2 FTAs games this season? Why didn't it trigger a 2 FTA game against KU in Morgantown? Or alternatively, why hasn't their style of play triggered any 2 FTA games against other opponents on the road this season?

I agree WVU has a style of play.

They appear to play much the same way every time I watch them play KU, or anyone else.

What was it about playing KU, this one time in Allen Field House, that caused this style of play of WVU to be awarded only 2 FTAs this time, and not on other visits to Allen Field House? Or to any other basketball arena Huggins and WVU have ever played in?

I don't have any good answers for these questions.

May be you can take a cut at them.

Believe me, I want this to have been all on the up and up, so that KU honestly won the game fair and square.

But I just don't quite follow how WVU's style of play would only trigger a 2 FTA game in this one situation this one time and not any other times.

Pull quote:

Of course, the national media stirred up because of the free throw discrepancy. Which is interesting, considering few, if any, of those same media members seemed to care when West Virginia beat Kansas while shooting 26 more free throws just two years ago.

https://kansas.247sports.com/Bolt/Devonte-Graham-has-explanation-for-free-throw-discrepancy-115300324 ↗ ↗

@KUSTEVE

Nice. Devonté’s comments nicely sum it up what went on.

This game was just an anomaly. We need someone like @Jesse-Newell to run the stats on KU home games showing the calls, and then also comparing that to say... WVU home game calls.

If you want to know the truth.. If anyone should be mad, it would be Self! We have a team that just doesn't want to rumble! Since WHEN does a Kansas team finish at the bottom of the Big 12 in FT attempts? That proves one thing; our guys just don't want to play a physical game.

So we get into a big game with the team that is easily the most-physical team in our league, but we refuse to get physical back with them. I am in awe that we won this game. I still can't believe we won.

But maybe we are crossing the defensive threshold now. Maybe this team can actually prove something RARELY or NEVER accomplished in basketball; playing tough defense without playing physical! I still have a hard time believing it... but this team has had this philosophy all year and is so talented athletically... This is what they believe and they work hard at their game, including defense... so who knows? It did work out on Saturday.

Contrast this with the interview with Sherron Collins... who was asked how he would stop Trae tonight. Here is what Sherron said:

"“I think you have to be physical with him. I’d hit him every time you get a chance to,” Collins said. “No easy layups. You have to hit the floor. Hard foul. I don’t want anybody to hurt anybody. You have to attack him. I’d attack him every time.”" ~ KUSports.com

That is what I think exactly... but I am "old school." It is what I said the first time we played him. Wear him down! Put him in hard ball screens, etc. Just keep putting body on Trae to wear him down and he will become too tired to be effective at the end of the game. Now... he's been beat down all year and showing definite signs of being worn down. It works! It works in a single game, and it applies damage to Trae for the rest of the season.

I don't know... I am open-minded for whatever. I have the teachings of the game that are ingrained in my brain and soul. But times change, and I've already passed the threshold of just name-calling on millennials because they bring a different way on many things. I've seen many impressive changes once I opened my mind!

An "old school" strategy for tonight's game would mean we can expect to see Cunliffe used for his 5 hard fouls on Trae...

I don't expect to see that happen because we rarely bring much of a specific strategy into our games against specific opponents.

@drgnslayr We want him to shoot it. He is like 37 out his last 38 from the free throw line. I think he's shooting around 20% from the field the last 5 or so games.

On ESPN this morning on the Golic and whoever the other guy is now- -they had a piece about the free throw discrepancy they talked to Tom Creene - is that his last name - the former IU coach that broadcasts now? - - Anyways they was talking to him and he said part of West Virginia problem was they got KU into the bonus early and most of the fouls were shooting fouls and he too mentioned that a lot of WV shots were outside and not driving the middle. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY ONG BABY

Having just watched the whole game - I don’t see any reason to think the Refs miscalled that game. Sure there were some bad calls/no calls as always but the FTA disparity was due to philosophical differences in approach to the game.

Devonte was right. The discrepancy should have been even further apart because WVU got away with murder.

Half of their players were holding our guys with both hands... even wrapping them up. The refs were giving warnings instead of blowing the whistle.

Huggy Bear had a strategy to play physical. He knew his biggest chance of winning was to win by playing more physical. When it didn't work, he played another card... to get thrown out to plant a seed for next year.

I'll tell you... Huggy doesn't miss a thing. He belongs in the HOF and he'll get there. He's one big March run away from knocking down the door to get in.

I like this post @jaybate-1-0 because one of my legacies is introducing the term FT defense to our group here!

@wissox

I apologize. I did not realize that. Thanks for tooting your horn. My hat is off to you! Consider yourself permanently foot noted. You should be enshrined in the basketball sports writers hall of fame for it. Free throw defense is one of the funniest ideas about basketball ever. It makes me laugh any time I see it, or use it.

@jaybate-1.0 No need to apologize, seeing it just stirred a memory!

@drgnslayr

There is no doubt in my mind that the refs should have called more than the 35 fouls they called on WVU.

What still flabbergasts me is how they called the game in such a way that KU wound up with only 2 FTAs; this I just cannot explain and ALL the explanations I have read are so easy to refute.

I just don't see how this game cannot be reviewed.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@jaybate-1.0

So, if one team has a game plan that leads to commiting fouls and the other has one that lead to not fouling, the FTs should still be balanced?

When even the sports writer from the KC Star...we are talking the KU hating KC Start... thinks Huggins has no case you have to conclude the referring was not out of the norm. Look at how many fouls WVU and KU were called until the last 8 second of the game and it is pretty much in line with the average for WVU games.

You seem to be having trouble understanding.

How many visiting teams in Allen Field House, since it opened in 1957, have been awarded only 2 FTAs in a 40 minute game?

jaybate 1.0 said:

@drgnslayr

There is no doubt in my mind that the refs should have called more than the 35 fouls they called on WVU.

What still flabbergasts me is how they called the game in such a way that KU wound up with only 2 FTAs; this I just cannot explain and ALL the explanations I have read are so easy to refute.

I just don't see how this game cannot be reviewed.

WVU was called for 35 fouls? Wow, this is news to everyone and I am sure Coach Self and KU players would have liked it since they though not all fouls were called on WVU.

KU wound up with only 2 FTAs? Wow, I am sure Huggy would have loved that.

Apparently you believe that only things that have happened before can happen again but in real life, for everything that happens there is always a first time. With your logic, sInce neither KU nor any other program for that matter has won 14 conference tittles in a row, it is not possible for KU to do that this year, and if it does, there must be an investigation by the conference and the NCAA.

Last season at Hilton, ISU was called for 12 fouls and KU was only 2-5 from the FT.

Last season At AFH KU was called for 25 fouls and Stanford went 30-37 from the FT; it hit a lot of the 1 and 1 front ends so it got a lot more attempts.

It happens.

You keep forgetting that if a team is called for a foul in the act of shooting 2 FTA are granted regardless of bonus status. If the foul is not in the act of shooting no FTA are granted.

KU’s outside shooting was off so it was penetrating and the majority of fouls were in the act of shooting while penetrating so they were granted 2 FT each time and KU reached the bonus fairly early.

WVU, on the other hand, was shooting wide open, uncontested 3s and not drawing fouls; only 6 attempts out of 60+ were at the rim.

The situation above was the perfect recipe for a large foul differential which is exactly what happened. If Huggy had not gotten nuts at the end and WVU not fouled on purpose, KU would have had less FTAs. Also, if WVU had not comitted line violations it would have had more attempts.

I don’t know why I am wasting my time, again, you have made up your mind and no amount of logic or facts will change it. I am out.

@JayHawkFanToo I don't know why Trae Young didn't try driving to the basket every single time OU got the ball. I thought our WVU game provided a textbook example of how to get lots of points by constantly driving when outside shots are not working, as well as how to foul up our post players. Curiously passive.

@jaybate-1.0

I've watched the game 3 times now. I just haven't seen it where we received the help from refs. WVU relied on the long ball and didn't push it to the rim enough. And when they did, Doke did a good job of not fouling. They shot 26 treys.

In the OU game, OU shot 13 FTs... 2 more than us. Why wasn't that game rigged?

All of this says more about our current culture than the reality at hand. I agree the WVU was an anomaly... but to just point at something and call it "rigged" when there simply isn't any supporting evidence says more about all of us than the refs that called the game.

The politics we live in today is having an impact on the way we see things, the way we interpret things, the way we communicate things. Just wait until March. This year may easily see fans screaming more about "rigged games" than all years prior.

We can expect to hear some of the same verbiage as used in politics... "fake refs" etc etc etc.

I'm making this point because I noticed our political climate has impacted my own thoughts and how I express them.

@drgnslayr Excellent points. And the "how we express them" all too often results in all of us accusing each other of bad motives for having opinions that differ.

Check this out. Apparently just like KU, Austin Peay always gets the calls!

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/tgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=game&year_min=-&year_max=2018&comp_schl_rk=eq&val_schl_rk=ANY&comp_opp_rk=eq&val_opp_rk=ANY&game_type=A&is_range=N&c1stat=fta&c1comp=lt&c1val=2&c2stat=opp_fta&c2comp=gt&c2val=30&order_by=pts ↗

Also, 5 times in 8 years makes the concept unusual, but not unheard of.

Even better:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/tgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=game&year_min=2011&year_max=2018&comp_schl_rk=eq&val_schl_rk=ANY&comp_opp_rk=eq&val_opp_rk=ANY&game_type=A&is_range=N&c1stat=fta&c1comp=lt&c1val=2&order_by=pts ↗

2 or fewer FTA has happened 169 times since 2010. So if one is willing to accept that KU's 35 FTA are simply a result of WVU's style of D, and are simply concerned with the low number of FTA for WVU, there is enormous evidence that such a stat is not out of the realm of possibility.

A quick review of that data shows it's even happened at Allen before in 2011. Also, high 3pt attempts seems to be a fairly common factor (though not every time) between games like this.

For me, officiating is too often the 'wild card' in sports (especially basketball) and I have often wondered if referees could be entirely replaced with technology. However, until then, my preference is for referees to call plays as they see them, in the moment, real time...and not add yet another dimension of human error to the equation by forcing them to consider and adjust to foul (or any other) inequality throughout the game. Most fans have witnessed "the make up call" but I find those distracting because like players, I think referees should be thinking "next play".

mayjay said:

@drgnslayr Excellent points. And the "how we express them" all too often results in all of us accusing each other of bad motives for having opinions that differ.

No and no.

Next.

@drgnslayr

Many if not most teams in D1 now shoot 20-30 treys per game routinely and are awarded waaaaaaay more than 2 FTAs in 40 minutes.

When was the last time a visiting team was awarded only 2 FTAs in AFH?

How many FTAs was WVU awarded in Morgantown.

Huggins is an experienced, likely HOF coach with a top notch PG with solid driving ability and above average strength. He could almost drive at will on Devonte, since DG has no backup. And he could drive into Devonte and force short treys. So you say he didn’t. So why?

One way or another the two FTAs suggest some thing rotten in Denmark.

@jaybate-1-0 Did you look at the info from the site I linked? Your 1st question has been answered. It was 2011 vs Iowa St. If my memory serves that would have been a Hoiberg team that shoots lots of 3s. In fact, they shot 32 threes that game.

As for your second, WVU had 12 FTA in Morgantown, making 11 of them (you can infer they likely got the second shot after a 1 and 1 at least once or twice with that %). That would mean the difference between officiating at WVU and at KU was really about 3 shooting fouls. Is it really unreasonable to assume that 3 fouls would be within the normal limits of variation per game?

And for your last question, Carter had to exit the game with 5 fouls. It's pretty common for a guard to hesitate to drive in order to protect himself from charge calls.

I agree that the numbers looked bad and were initially startling but after spending far too much time looking into it, I just don't see anything rotten in any country. Is there a point you are trying to make by simply ignoring the facts people are placing in front of you? Perhaps reinforcing some of what @drgnslayr said. With the president of the US being a known and proud promoter of conspiracy theories, is it really that big of a leap to propose that kind of thinking would find its way into more discussions and areas other than politics?

For added reference, WVU has had 4 games in the last 8 seasons with 7 or less attempts including 3 against Notre Dame at home in 2012 and 5 against UT at a neutral site in 2014. Rare, yes. Unheard of, no. Are we into "next" territory yet?

@jaybate-1.0

I always appreciate and respect your opinion. I will continue to keep an open mind about that game. I just haven't seen anything fishy by watching the game several times.

I know I can't be unbiased... but I try and I often see things different than most Kansas fans.

I saw several situations where we didn't get the calls in that game. I totally agree the numbers were weird. Sometimes there just isn't an answer to a game's results.

jaybate 1.0 said:

@drgnslayr

When was the last time a visiting team was awarded only 2 FTAs in AFH?

Not that long ago, February 12, 2011...

!0_1519246286177_upload-f61c1300-1bf3-438e-995a-c0f68eb2b405 ↗

Game, set, match.

@benshawks08

Perfect. The numbers don't lie.

This is what Bilas said in an article at ESPN today:

There was quite a stir after the Mountaineers blew a double-digit lead in a loss to Kansas at Allen Fieldhouse in Lawrence. West Virginia coach Bob Huggins was tossed after vociferously pointing out the free throw disparity, which was 35-2 at the end of the game. Many fans and others around the basketball community pointed to the disparity as clear evidence that something was wrong.

Well, I sat courtside for that game, and there was nothing wrong. Were there some missed calls? Yes. Did the officials miss the call that was the last straw for Huggins? Yes. I watched the game again, and there were about 15 calls that should have or could have been called. But nine of those calls should have or could have gone against West Virginia, including an offensive basket interference call against the Mountaineers that went uncalled and resulted in a bucket.

Free throw disparity is a function of style of play and how teams play on that day. West Virginia settled for a lot of jump shots, while Kansas drove the ball into the lane and punched the ball into its big guy, Udoka Azubuike. West Virginia presses and fouls more than most teams, and it allows more free throws by opponents than all but 13 Division I teams. Kansas does not play pressure defense, and it is in the top 20 in Division I in allowing the fewest free throws. The officials made some mistakes, yes. But the officials did not cost West Virginia the game. The Mountaineers did that all by themselves.

That said, I strongly believe that the last 8 minutes went substantially in our favor -- like really substantially. We were down 10 and that swing helped create our comeback. Thanks refs. Next time we'll be the victims.

@HighEliteMajor Well said. I hope it waits until next year because I'm done losing this year and hopefully the Hawks are too!

@benshawks08 Sold. Also, a friend of mine who is a lurker here just texted me and told me that the lowest shot against KU was 0 by the Topeka YMCA in, get this, 1899. Does that even count?

I have had neither success arguing with a man with a badge or a man with a whistle.

Likely, the last 8 minutes brought out the bear in Huggs and he was duly compensated.

Glad Coach Self takes the high road when asked any question (good or bad) about officiating...must not always be easy though.

If KU ever ends up on the wrong end of a Major FT Discrepancy, I'll expect nary a word from the lot of you. If 35-2 is not a legitimate complaint against whistle bias, then there shall never be one.

@Blown It’s a legitimate complaint. I want to make sure people understand that I think that. It is not, however, evidence of wrong doing. Upon further review I cannot conclude in this instance that there was bias. I will reserve the right to point out and review future possible bias if I think I see it. Even if the discrepancy is 12-11 on free throw attempts.

@Blown I'm w/@benshawks08

HighEliteMajor said:

That said, I strongly believe that the last 8 minutes went substantially in our favor -- like really substantially. We were down 10 and that swing helped create our comeback. Thanks refs. Next time we'll be the victims.

I need to go back and just watch those last 8 minutes before forming my own judgment of those 8 minutes.

But... even if we all agree that Kansas received a benefit... is that benefit because we are Kansas and it is AFH? Or, is it more of a common factor that typically gives all home teams that same advantage?

Refs are humans. How can they not be impacted by a home crowd... especially when their home team has a come-back momentum thing going on? And AFH is the loudest (or one of the loudest) venues in college basketball.

Do you think we get ref benefits just because we are Kansas?

I think Huggy played a card in hopes of gaining a benefit next year, or even in the Big 12 Tournament. He may even be playing that card for years... Huggy is a real competitor. He is TIRED of losing to Kansas. He is TIRED of losing the league. Simply... he'll do whatever it takes to dethrone us.

Think about this... if Huggy would have stayed polite in this game, no one would be talking about that discrepancy now. It would have appeared within a sports media bleep, and would now be long gone!

@drgnslayr i would have called it out regardless of what Huggy did. i’ve been calling them out all season. I called it out when we went to Norman and shot 6 to their 25. 6 before the 7 intentionals on Doke.

I am 'all in' with holding referees accountable...whatever it takes to improve their judgment, consistency, and fairness. Poor officiating can become an unwelcome equalizer especially when talent levels on the floor are disparate. I would prefer that competitiveness, athleticism, and strategy determine outcomes instead of a whistle (or absence thereof) and will take KU's chances anytime a game is officiated appropriately. If Huggy's concerns are valid, then all should benefit from improvement.

@Blown You never have heard a word from me about KU on the short end, and never will. Referees trying to eliminate statistical disparities caused by teams would be bias.

Tell me, how should referees respond if one team goes on a foul party while the other team doesn't? Isn't it worse to have the refs start getting hesitant to blow whistles for fear of being automatically accused?

Most importantly, please let us know precisely where the cutoff is. Are referees obligated to ensure there are no extremes in a box score? "Can't call that foul--that team has had 3 players foul out already."

@HighEliteMajor I posted the Topeka Y info yesterday morning. It was found in the media guide. Chock full of tidbits!

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@mayjay Ok, I'm good at stealing other's stuff.

@HighEliteMajor It was the lurker, not you! Been there, done that...

@Blown

I am honest when I say I don't know if I can really be unbiased. I know I don't want Kansas to get a free ride anywhere. That has always been what I hate about Duke. I don't want Kansas to be the next Duke. But that doesn't mean I can look at a game with Kansas and think my calls are the right calls.

I know I find some wrong calls where we get the break and see it as wrong. When Svi took 3 1/2 steps to clinch our home win against KSU last year, I even built a graphic of Svi Airlines to point it out.

Still... I will never claim to be the right person to judge Kansas treatment overall. I often feel we get ripped off. I think that is typical fan behavior... making me typical.

The media guide is the bible for all KU basketball related information. :smile:

Huggins deserves this and his arrogance blinds him. Also, he will defend his style of play fouls be damned. Sad...I used to respect him

https://247sports.com/college/west-virginia/Bolt/Big12-Announces-Public-Reprimand-of-Bob-Huggins-115420124 ↗

Huggins (and Mike Anderson/Arkansas) coach a style of college basketball that is rapidly becoming a dinosaur in an age of smaller lineups and fans who crave athleticism, style, and finesse plays/players. I wouldn't shed a tear for its demise.

I am astounded how much discussion can be generated over 2 free throws!