🏀 KuBuckets Archive

So here we sit. Watching Michigan, Florida, Kentucky, etc. Ugh. I enjoyed the games last night, but there was a hole, an emptiness.

The tournament means more – it means more than recruiting successes, it means more than non-con, it means more than conference titles, it means more than conference tournaments. The NCAA tournament means everything.

We can deny it, and we can rationalize it all we want to. But it’s dishonest and untrue.

Sure, it’s not “fair” that the tournament means this much. It’s not “fair” that coaches are suffering such a fate – that they are judged by their tournament success. It is what they signed up for. And ultimately, “fair” has got nothing to do with it.

This season, like it or not, UK is superior to KU. We are an also ran. We mean nothing. How often have you uttered the word "Duke" in the last week or so?

Fair? If we beat an average Stanford team and a mid-major, Dayton, all of a sudden the entire narrative changes, right? That’s all. Just beat those to middling teams.

It’s not who you beat, it’s when you win. When you win is most important.

That is why everything a coach does has to be geared toward March success. Everything. Not part, or some, or a little bit. Everything. That is the reality at Kansas. It is the reality at Duke, at UNC, at Kentucky, at other top programs.

Great programs are defined by NCAA titles, and to a lesser extent, Final Fours. That defines greatness. Greatness is not defined by 10 conference titles. That’s impressive. That’s amazing. We have put ourselves in the same discussion as Gonzaga. Terrific. But it is certainly not “greatness.”

The entire basketball world and all of America, for sure, is focused on this tournament. And again, we sit at home. Sitting at home is sufficient for other teams, other schools. But we are Kansas. We correctly expect our teams to play to their talent level each and every season.

So let me reiterate what I’ve said in the past – conference titles mean nothing. They are a means to an end, with the end being a #1 seed, and thus a better statistical chance of winning the NCAA tourney. A conference title is not worthy of t-shirt in Lawrence, Kansas. If you have one, throw it away.

Because all that matters now is coach Self’s preparation for next season’s NCAA tournament. It is the only meaningful end game.

Right now, I’ll make you a trade – the 10 conference titles, wash it all away, for the 2013-14 NCAA title. It’s an offer you can’t refuse.

For now, though, we sit on our pathetic couches, watching our pathetic HD TVs, watching a pathetic tournament, that will result in the pathetic crowning of yet another team not known as the Kansas Jayhawks.

I did not enjoy the ride.

I'd be interested in a poll on this site to see how many agree with you. I disagree and I would like to know whether I am in the minority or simply alone.

A 34 game preseason is too long for me. If the NCAA tourney is all that matters, see you on selection Sunday.

You can bash my couch. You can run down KUs season. But how dare you call my HD TV pathetic!!

@ParisHawk regular season is important but final 4 is what counts! Look at Danny and the miracles season. Some of these teams that are still playing, struggled during regular season, some had injuries, but they grew stronger and we ........

This season, like it or not, UK is superior to KU

@HighEliteMajor For now I'd say that statement is true. However, should UK lose to Michigan, would you make that same statement a year from now? I mean, what is an elite 8? It is not something you hang banners for at places like UK & KU. Aside from UK fans, a year from now will anybody even remember the non-Final 4 teams in the elite 8? Maybe people will remember, only because of "40-0" talk about this team because it was supposedly the greatest recruiting class ever assembled. But if they lose Sunday, would you take a season-ending elite 8 finish or a conference championship? The elite 8 T-shirt would surely be just as worthless as the conference title T-shirts you abhor. I don't know...

Regardless, I do agree with the vast majority of your post. The question I'm interested in, is how do we (or more accurately, how does coach Self) better position the team for success in the tourney? Certainly we've critiqued Self for some of his tournament coaching decisions, or indecisions. For his management of the rosters during the season. For his recruiting strategy. It seems that everybody was in universal agreement that a tough schedule would better prepare us, then we play the toughest schedule in the last 20 years and lose to Stanford in the round of 32. What are the answers? What is the magic combination to solve the tournament puzzle?

If we as posters had one thing we'd go to coach Self and implore him to change, what would it be? What is the most important thing we'd like to see happening?

@HighEliteMajor What I'd like to know is in the H did you know my flippin couch is that bad?! Better not eat the last piece of cake you old fart. LOLOLOL just funnin' HEM.

Yeah it's the schizz to kinda be watching the Samsung with half an eye when the games are on, but some years after the big L, I don't even turn the damn thing on. When you're an insatiable competitor though, you sometimes do things a little differently. Sometimes you look for further answers & others just throw up the arms & effit. I sometimes watch the ends of the games like how I viewed the NBA contests, not fast-just half fast (assed). Time heals & I can't cry over this one that much cause I really didn't expect much after Joel went down. What I would like to see going forward is our coach develop some marksmen with full intention of using them as a viable option when necessary. Yeah, I'll get hammered some for speaking up likely, but this ain't hoops from the 1980's anymore, it's evolving to a much faster, higher scoring game. The trifecta is too huge a part of the formula for sustained success anymore to underutilize it so, & Self has got to evolve his approach to it in coming years & not ignore what influx it can have in the life of a program & sustaining a season to April. UK is going to ride their hot shooting twins as far as they can, & well, ours are in the dorms diligently (like krap) studying for finals & I'm heading out to an auction this morning & likely cutting firewood this afternoon. I may not even turn the damn tv on till later tonight, just don't hide the damn remote in the couch cushions. That'd almost be as bad ass eating the final piece of cake ! Not quite, but almost.....Grrrrrrrrrrr.....

@HighEliteMajor

2006/2007 - Elite 8

2007/2008 - National Champions

2008/2009 - Sweet 16

2009/2010 - 2nd Round

2010-2011 - Elite 8

2011/2012 - National Runner up

2012/ 2013 - Sweet 16

2013/2014 - 2nd Round

The past 8 years, we've made the Sweet 16 6 times, the Elite 8 4 times, the Final Four twice, the national championship game twice, and are 1-1 in national championship games. Our NCAA tournament record ( done with double knot accuracy) is 24-7 over that period. If I'm not mistaken, that would be a 77% winning % in the "only thing that counts". I know, I know...it should be 100%.

@KUSTEVE Good illustration. 25% of the time we lose in the 2nd round, 25% in the sweet 16, 25% in the elite 8, and 25% of the time we advance to the title game, winning one and losing one. I think most of us, if asked, would say that a National title appearance twice in 8 years is acceptable. What is frustrating is that a team like the '11 team, which has advanced just as far as the UK team HEM references, is considered a disappointment because of how they lost, who they lost to, and the generally accepted notion that it was talented enough to win a national title.

Its not a matter of your tournament winning percentage, its who you lose to. If you're a 1 or 2 seed, anything less than a Final Four is a disappointment. If you went out in the Sweet 16 every year, that would be a 667 winning percentage. Is that something to crow about? Maybe at Gonzaga. Not at Kansas. Does anyone brag about an Elite Eight appearance in 2011?

This coach just does not get his team ready to play in the tournament. When's the last time you felt comfortable in a tournament game before halftime? Or even before the middle of the second half? Even in first round games against 14 15 or 16 seeds?

" But all I wanted was to rule the Universe...."

Dr. Zachary Smith

Lost in Space
(TV show, not the movie)

@HighEliteMajor I did not enjoy the ride right along with you. We talked about this in another thread, but even though we lost to a 10 seed ( I always love saying that.....) it was not earth-shattering, unexpected or life changing. It was sigh an end to a pretty uneventful season, by Kansas standards.

In my opinion, Embiid's injury had little bearing on our outcome. We might have beaten Stanford, but we were't going to be wearing any rings or holding up any trophies at the end of this season. We never did jell as a team. We were too young and had NO consistent guard play.

I hope the 5 million dollar man figures it out by next season. I'm not down on Self, but when you're a Kansas fan, losing at any level just sucks.

@icthawkfan316 We have national championship expectations every year. It's who we are. We play at a level that puts us in the Final Four conversation every year. I haven't thought we should've lost a tournament game in at least 8 years. i think part of the disconnect is Coach Self goes so hard at the conference, he always manages to get a very good seed. Sometimes, I think we get seeded beyond our ability. Go pop over to cbssports. Under basketball, there is a page called "rankings". Go and look, and there you have KU ranked 4th in the nation in Parrish's 25 and 1. This was after we went 3-3 our last 6 games. So, we were thought better of than we probably deserved ( myself included).

As much as the Big 12 was ballyhooed as the "best" conference this year, only two out of the 7 teams made it past the first weekend, and both promptly lost their Sweet 16 games. Now, the Clones losing Niang had something to do with them losing, but the point is still we won a league that didn't place a single team in the Elite 8.

This coach has almost as many tournament upsets as Big 12 Titles. Btw, once again, the Big 12 has left the building before the second weekend even starts--so much for the "strongest league in the NCAA." Meanwhile, Florida and Michigan State have an opportunity to pull even with Kansas in NCAA titles, and UConn might pass us, and Kentucky, well, I don't even want to think about it. All on Bill's watch. So much for being a "Blue Blood program." I'm thinking more and more that this coach is becoming an unworthy "keeper of the grail," (to reference JB )

@KULA yeah...that's it..Coach can't coach. Click your heels 3 times, Dorothy ... you've landed in Oz. Name me 3 coaches who have better than a 77% in the NCAA the past 8 years. Don't even try to use the SQUID as 1 of them, because we all know how good Kensucky did last year in their monumental battle with Robert Morris in the NIT. Over the same time frame, Wisconsin made the tournament all 8 years, and until this year, had only made 1 Sweet 16. Does Bo Ryan suck? In 2010, Izzo got beat in the 2nd round...does he suck? Izzo has 3 first round NCAA losses, 2 2nd round losses ...is he a failure? Coach Rat got beat by....MERCER. Pitino has 2 NIT trips, 5 1st or 2nd round exits since 2000 at Louisville. So, 7 out of his 14 years, his teams either were in the NIT, or lost their first or second game. Did he simply coach badly those 7 years?

@KULA I saw your post and thought "this guy...really?" True to form, Bill Bashing was imported from kusports. Not to say that Self is above reproach. But from your reputation it's known your opinion is that all success KU has achieved in the past 10 years has been in spite of Self, not because of him. We get it, you think Self is garbage.

As for your "all on Bill's watch", yeah other programs are pulling closer to us, and in Kentucky's case pulling further in front, but to imply that is Bill's fault is ridiculous. I mean, is it Self's fault we had a 15 year drought during Roy's tenure? Or that we had 2...freakin' 2!...before Self arrived? Given all our other accolades - all-time wins, NCAA tournament appearances, etc. - it is a failure across decades of KU coaches to not fill the trophy case with more NCAA championships. You can't lay that all at Bill's feet. Self brought us a title, and another appearance in the national title game. "Unworthy of 'keeper of the grail' ", what did any of the other coaches at KU do that was more impressive, that made them more worthy? Maybe you need to reevaluate the legacy and think about how Self compares to other KU coaches historically, then tell me he doesn't measure up.

ict--what you can lay at Bill's feet is getting upset in the tournament almost as often as winning the Big (?) 12. Different players, same system. If you're gonna give him credit for one, he's gotta shoulder some responsibility for the other.

As for your ? above about what to change--I'd trash that offense and go more up tempo. These guys don't even know how to run a fast break. He's got a couple future NBAers hanging around 25 feet from the basket while he continues to try to pound the ball into...Tarik Black?

@HighEliteMajor HEM, your posts are always logical and rational....this one is no different. For what it is worth, and we all have our own opinions, I tend to agree with most of the things you say. I usually think....I couldn't have said it better.
But I have to disagree, only because you took it to such an extreme.
Yes, success in the tournament is way too much of a contributor as to how successful your program is. But that's the way it is.
You can't have success with one and no success without the other...in my opinion.
Your statement that you would trade all of the Conference championships for oneNC is extreme....but that is your opinion.
I would not come close to doing that.
I have always said I would rather experience 4 months of success than 3 weeks.
That being said, 10 conference championships without some success in the tournament does not make your program great. You do need to top it off with some post season success.
In my opinion, the 1 NC and 1 runner-up along with the 10 conf. championships make us a great program....but I admit that all of the flops in the post season put us on the edge of not making that cut.
If the next 10 years bring us say, 7 conf. championships, similar success in the regular season, 1 more NC, and 1 more runner up would you take that?
I would. Yes, I would like 2 NCs and a couple more final fours.
But I would take it and I think the continued success in the regular season would allow us to continue to be one of the power programs in the country.

@KULA I know why you're so butt hurt over Coach Self - when we lose, all the people you've antagonized all year talking s*** about KU being better than their team come back to get their lb of flesh. I know guys like you...you have a personality disorder.

@KUSTEVE Those are some compelling facts. I'll take the next 8 years just like those, please.

@KUSTEVE were any of those teams you mentioned 1 or 2 seeds? Because Kansas was in a lot of their upsets. That's the difference.

@KUSTEVE I have never been a big believer in judging the strength of a conference based on how they do in the tournament. Example: Is Dayton one of the best 8 teams in the country?
Now, the Big 10 getting 3 of the final 8? That has to be significant.
Although, even if they only had 1 in the final 8 I would still have said the Big 10 was either the toughest or the 2nd toughest in the country.

@Hawk8086 Hawk, I am so grateful for KU bb, for the level of excellence we maintain every year. I am absolutely astonished how utterly insane the expectations people put on our program. It is almost beyond rational comprehension.

@KUSTEVE Agree!

@KUSTEVE you don't know me Steve--I never gloat or talk s*** to other guys, because being a Kansas fan has instilled the humility of upset after upset in me. I don't know if you're local to the Jayhawk area, but when you get out of the KU bubble, you hear people's honest and objective opinion about our team. Bracketbuster, choke artists, and upset are recurring themes.

@KULA I apologize- I shouldn't have said that. You have a right to be as critical as you want.

@KULA You're right. We've been upset a lot. In this regard, I think Self is a victim of his own regular season success. which is what you really seem to have a problem with - the fact that he gets us in a position to be granted a high seed, then we don't live up to that seed. I guess then the question is this: is it better to constantly earn high seeds and be upset more often than others, because of the seed. Or is it better to sometimes go to the NIT, or earn lower seeds and when you lose it not be considered an upset?

Or more simply put, is it better to set high expectations for yourself and not meet them sometimes, or to set lower expectations and meet them? That's what we're essentially talking about. KU setting high expectations for themselves based on regular season play, and thus earning a high seed, then losing in March and having those expectations unmet.

I will agree that the offense definitely needs some adjusting.

Thanks Steve--appreciated.
ict--agree somewhat to being a victim of success, but I would argue the program is a victim of Bill's "win every game at all costs" rather than developing players to be ready to contribute in the tournament method. After all, what good has a high seed done us when losing to a 9, 10 or 11 seed? You can do that just as well as a 5, 6, 7 seed. I'd have rather gotten a lower seed and have Green and White ready to come in and pop some threes against Stanford's zone.

Off to work.

@HighEliteMajor As usual HEM, you have successfully stirred the pot. Glad also as usual that you've been able to rile up the natives into a mini frenzy simply because the contrasting viewpoints help us all learn the different aspects of the game. Opinions are all like the other various parts of the anatomy good & sometimes bad, & even some stinky, but as for the comments about Bill bashing, some need to stop & count to ten, or maybe even take off the flippin shoes if missing any, before regressing to name calling when those who don't agree with the mainstream peckerwood kool aide drinkers take a different point of view to the table..... see how easy it is to go overboard? My point exactly. Just take a short 30 sec TO, & let some of it slip on through the hat rack if you feel the need to scream bloody murder. After all, it really isn't life or death. Just a form of entertainment... that Bill gets paid 5 mill a year to do well at, while all we get is an occaisional attaboy or a headache, that choice is ours. As always fellow board rats, JMO

HEM, I also agree with you to a certain point. I just don't agree with you on how we get there. I don't think the answer is to recruit lower-rated prospects that will stay 3-4 years, hoping they will develop into a team that is capable of winning a NC. It is easy to use Dayton or Wichita State or even Butler in hindsight as an example of what KU should do. But compare the level of consistency those schools have had for the past 25-30 years. The successes of those schools is once or twice in a generation. And none have won the championship.

@HighEliteMajor

I always say that continued success beats a one or two year wonder. I would not change the last 10 conference titles for one National title and years of mediocrity in between.

I posted an article that listed the most successful programs since the new NCAA format was introduced. Even if KU wold have lost in '08, it would still be tied with Duke for the #1 spot, even if it would mean its last title was in '88. Most knowledgeable analyst consider a National Championship just a part of the overall equation.

Also, are you comparing KU's title streak with Gonzaga's? Are you joking? You cannot even begin comparing winning a conference title in the Big 12 with on in the West Coast Conference. This year alone the Big 12 was ranked #1, 70% of its teams were at one time ranked in the top 25 and sent 70% of its teams to the NCAA; the West Coat Conference was ranked #9, had one team (Gonzaga) ranked in the top 25 and sent 2 teams (20%) to the NCAA, one of them a bubble team.

Look at the very successful and dominant programs of the past such as UCLA. Does anyone remember how many titles they won during their glory years? The answer is no. Most people remember the stars such as Alcindor and Walton and the incredible 88 game winning streak, which muck like KU averaging 30 wins per year during the Self era and having the best winning percentage, is a better indicator of the program overall and continued excellence.

Look at programs that had great but short runs, such a VCU, George Mason or Butler with back to back appearances in the finals, and yet they are not consider top programs, just run of the mill mid-major. As I said, long terms continued success will always trump short term success. I will take the success KU has had, even with the disappointing loses, over having 1 National Championship followed by years of average results.

I would argue the program is a victim of Bill's "win every game at all costs" rather than developing players to be ready to contribute in the tournament method.

@KULA I would argue that Self did a pretty good job of developing players this year; definitely more so than in years past. True AW3 got left out, but Greene got into almost every game, and Frankamp got into quite a few. The result - Frankamp was ready to contribute in the tournament, and did so in spectacular fashion. The problem this year wasn't Self failing to develop guys, it was stubbornly relying on Tharpe who routinely crapped the bed and not turning to the guys he developed until it was too late against Stanford.

@KUSTEVE

Got to defend my Badgers a little bit! Bo Ryan has coached UW 13 years and made 6 sweet 16's including three of the last four. He made an elite 8 in 2005 and played UNC incredibly tough in that game. You have bought the perception of the Badgers, and for the life of me I don't know where this comes from, that UW is an early out in the tourney. Bo's lost two first round tourney games and only one would be considered an upset, so in that regard, he's even up on Self!

@HEM

I am in agreement with you. I don't go on Facebook and brag about KU winning the Big 12 every year, although it's better than not winning it. We play in a league without an elite challenger, although challenges have come from many different teams through the years. But I do whoop it up for the Alma Mater when we make a final four or win it. It still rankles me that a team like UConn has as many titles as KU and they barely played college ball until the 70's. Heck if the Badgers win this thing, stop laughing, it could happen, they will be one championship behind KU as the Badgers took home the 1941 title!

But KU is close to putting their name up there with the all time best in terms of championships. A back to back run and suddenly we're past Duke, and just looking up at Kentucky and UCLA, and Indiana I think. This can be done. I'm already excited about seeing a more experienced KU team on the floor next year and looking forward to what that will bring.

@HighEliteMajor I made a similar argument the other day..

I could only handle watching so much of this. It pisses me off to see how gifted this kid is and that Self did nothing to get him going against Stanford. I'm sure the fact that the tournament isn't any other game where you're capable of trying something just to see how it works. But the more I've thought about it the more I'm pissed of about Self's almost absence in March.

This time of year always serves as a painful reminder that you're remembered for what you do in March. Winning the Big 12 is great, being able to thumb up our noses at the likes of Big 12 teams is certainly a nice thing...but I'd trade it all to still be dancing.

Something that I've been thinking about lately is how March success is a crap shoot for KU. What I mean by that is, isn't it interesting how we need a lot, and I mean a lot of things to fall in place for us to have a team that is capable of winning it all. Yes, all teams need a little luck in March, but we need luck just to have the right pieces in place to win it all. To provide a good example, if Brandon Rush didn't get hurt before the draft do we win the NC in 2008? I don't think so. Watching this tape of Wiggs makes me wonder what it would be like if Wiggins and Embiid returned (not that I blame them for going or expect them to stay), with those pieces in place we're a high-caliber NC contender just like 2008 and 2011...it's extremely unlikely though, right? The fact is we're probably another two seasons away from having a team capable of winning it all, and even that is contingent on whether Oubre really does stay two years (like his father has alluded to), or by some miracle Alexander stays another year. You're almost left hoping that they show flashes in their freshman campaign, but struggle enough so that they're forced into a position like Selden was where it's just stupid to go because you could become a lottery pick by staying compared to a late first round, or early second round pick (which is still why Josh Selby leaving early is mind boggling).

March Madness is the best time of year...but it can very quickly turn into a nightmare that you can't get away from. It seems to me that we need the ball to bounce the right way for us to get another shot at a NC, the last quality, 2008-caliber team was in 2011, and we all know how that ended. I don't know when we'll have another chance at that sort of team with players leaving early for the NBA. This is why @HighEliteMajor so eloquently proposed the question, would you rather have Embiid or Shepherd? If Shepherd (in the hypothetical sense at KU) is capable of developing significantly between his first and second year, thus giving KU a shot next year at an NC, yes. I have no doubt that by his third year, he'd be at a high enough level with the pieces around him to give us a shot at the NC. So again, yes, I'd take Shepherd (purposely sic) over Emiid. But he chose TCU over KU....so there's nothing we can do there...unless he transfers (not happening).

I guess what I'm getting at in this tirade is that I'd gladly trade places with ISU right now. I would no doubt trade places with Florida reaching four Elite Eights in a row. I'd rather be at team built for March, rather than one trying to pull off the trifecta of 2008 every year (winning the Big 12 season, tournament and the NCAA tournament. This is all very difficult to do). Think about it, look at UK, UConn, or even Wisconsin. These are teams that had serious question marks at some point in the season, but easily could be pulling themselves together just in time for a run at the NC. I'm sick of the March disappointments. I don't care about everything else. This is Kansas. I want to boast the mounting national championship victories, being the winningest program all time, not beating up on our little brothers every year only to get ousted once we get to the big boys table.

As always, RCJH.

@HighEliteMajor How can you not enjoy the ride? Because you didn't get your way? Because these young men did not win the National Championship? Shame on them and their coach. What is their problem? If the coaching staff would just listen to the fan forums, we could fix this current mess, right? It does not work that way. We do not always get our way. I cheer for the Jayhawks to win every game, and each year I wish we would go undefeated, but that probably will not happen and I accept that.

Coach Self has put together a consistent winner. For that I am extremely grateful. Many factors go into winning National Championship. Health, Chemistry, Skill, and luck to name a few. Winning the Championship does not necessarily mean you are the hands down best. It means you won a two-week tournament at that time. If you played the same tournament again, with the same seedings, at the same locations, you would more than likely get a different champion each time. Not to beat a dead horse, but no way UNI, VCU, Michigan or Stanford beats us two out of three. In a win or go home scenario, anything can happen. That's what makes it so exciting.

I enjoy the ride every single. I am a KU Diehard. I am going down with the ship. Each year that we don't win it stings, it hurts, and I don't like it. Then I think how much I love the Kansas Jayhawks and my pain goes away as I look forward to another season of watching these young Student-Athletes develop into young men and take their experience from their time at the University of Kansas with them for the rest of their lives.

All of the other teams in the tournament are given their best efforts as well. That is what makes March Madness so special. The tournament is anything but pathetic. The world is not just about me or my favorite team. If it was, we could just host the Jayhawk Invitatiional every year against a bunch of cupcakes, and all would be alright with the world. However, I like competition, and I want to see our team compete against the best. That is one of the reasons this year was enjoyable for me. I got to see where we stacked up against other great programs. We were not that far off. Next year, should be an improvement.

10 Straight Big XII Titles is great in my opinion. That means you have gone up against your Conference opponents time and time again, and finished first. That says a lot. Totally different conversation than winning a National Championship.

In the current format which is still at 64 teams once the tournament starts. (I know about the play in games) Since 1985 Duke has 4 Championships, UCONN, UK, and UNC 3. Kansas and Florida 2. We are right there in the mix. We lost 3 title games during that timeframe, and have also made the Final Four quite a few times as well. We are a special group and I am proud!

Once again this group of Kansas Jayhawks were in the conversation for a National Championship. If you can't enjoy the ride, who(m) would you rather ride with?

@MoonwalkMafia Your logic seems to be that the reason this team did not progress further was that Wiggins and/or Embiid did not do well enough to cause KU to advance past the 3rd round. One of the opponents actually made the comment that KU didn't have a true pg. I'm not bashing Tharpe in his first year of being the pg. I'm just saying that if you feel that the main issue is the OADs, then you should be patient waiting for the development of Tharpe. And if you're waiting for players to develop, you should expect there would be losses and upsets.

@Wigs2 That is definitely not what I'm saying. I was saying that not enough was done in terms of running plays to get Wiggins going.

My point did not have to do with Self recruiting OADs. We're going to go after the top-tier talent no matter what. It's about the surrounding pieces. I was saying that it's difficult to have the caliber of team capable of winning the national championship. We're young without Wiggins' or Embiid's commitment so it's really kind of a moot point in terms of development.

You're right about Tharpe. EKU is the opponent you're referring to. They said that they knew they could turn him over. They were right.

As far as having patience, Tharpe will be a senior next year. His defense (at the end of his junior season) was nonexistent. His leadership (as a junior) is questionable to say the least. I could go on and on. Tharpe leaves a lot to be desired. I really like Tharpe. He's actually one of the nicest guys on the team, but when we needed Tharpe this year (in the tournament) he was not there. Simple as that.

The point I'm trying to make is that Tharpe leaves a lot to be desired at the end of his junior year. Do you foresee him making great strides going into his senior year? Sure, he'll improve during the offseason, but I certainly don't think that he's going to turn into a lockdown defender. I hope I'm wrong. But making excuses for a guy that's been in the system for three years now, even if it is reduced from an incorrect assumption, is weak.

I'm not trading my Jayhawk 10 consecutive league titles for another national championship. Those titles represent the blood and sweat of a season's body of work. NCAA Tourney always has been a crapshoot. Look at UK, Ucon, Michigan State; Duke, Syracuse, Wichita State. Ya get on a roll by late March/early April, SHAZAM! If injuries or exhaustion or a hot handed opponent beat ya down, SAYONARA. Not saying that the coaching staff does not have much to answer for in our Self years of frequent early exits. But I'm not willing to denigrate that fantastic string of league titles. After early March, anything more is gravy. A sad exit this season, but the futile Embiid wait exemplifies typical postseason tourney frustration. Time now to buckle up, prepare for a next season of hopes, dreams, and better good fortune. Hope springs eternal...said the satirical poet....

Far, far, and away the worst perspective and opinion I have read on this forum from somebody i truly respect and appreciate. This post reeks of selfish ego, cynicism, and is a direct result of being spoiled by this programs successes. You know it really pisses me off when Kansas plays down to their competition thinking they have a leg up because of the name on the jersey. Yet, here you are thinking we should show up to a 64 team tournament and win it because "we are Kansas" ? Come on, get real. It's up to us, the educated basketball fan base that we are, to evaluate our team and set new expectations. Thinking a team should perform a certain way, year after year, regardless of the personnel is a completely rigid and unfair thought process. If your son was on this team, would there still be "no success"? I coach all youth sports
, and have for 10 years in my community. We have a handful of championships but very few compared to our opportunities. Should I tell my kids there was no "success" in their year because they didnt win the last game. Would you tell the kids you coach this and believe it? By the way you never defined success, nor why it "means more". Is it because the media aggrandizes the event to capitalize on it monetarily?

My definition of success is happiness. And no, I'm not happy with my hawks all of the time, and more often than not sad at the end of each year. But when I look at the seasons, I look at them holistically. Not rigidly with no change in expectations.

I was extremely blessed to see most of our home conference games. There's no way to measure the fun I had!!!

@Blown Very well said man. Very well said.

It was said once or twice above about the perception of KU ball in the area. Sure with k-st and mizzu fans in the greater KC area they are going to point things out more. The same as it is in Omaha dealing with their fans and being the lone jayhawk fan around.

If you go to North Carolina you will hear wake forest fans, nc st fans and unc fans pile on duke for their early exits.

Go to Kentucky and they still have to hear about last years NIT first rnd out by Louisville fans after they won it all. Even though UK has beat them more times than not in the past ten years.

I am guessing ohio st is hearing about their early out to Dayton this year from not only Dayton fans but from Michigan and Michigan st fans too.

National perception about KU is based on an east coast biased media. I pointed out in another thread that duke has more early outs in the tournament than Kansas does in the past five years. But espn and bcs don't make it a story like they do Kansas.

Kansas doesn't get credit for a lot of things like three of the greatest basketball venues named for KU alum. That wilt played at KU. Sure UCLA can boast about some of their legendary players and coach, not to many other schools can.

My perception of Wisconsin basketball is they play D like a hockey team.

My perception of Villanova basketball is speedy guards and muscle in the middle.

My perception is my opinion, so it what espn and cbs has to say. It's their perception.

My perception of KU basketball is solid team year in and year out. A team to be reckoned with every year. Not only 10 straight conf titles but 25 and counting NCAA tournament appearances in a row, the longest such active streak.

Yes we all want KU to win the tournament but all it takes is one bad half and you go home. There are no re-dos or best ofs. It's win or go home. Sore as die hard fans we notice it more when KU loses early. Yes those loses hurt, some burn more than others too, but to give up something like ten years of greatness for just one shinning moment is not right.

To compare KUs streak to gonzagas is a joke. How many nba players did they have to go up against? Was there a Durant in the WCC? Griffin? Beasley? Smart? No. So it's not apples to apples.

At the beginning of March everyone was happy that KU got their 10th in a row. Now it's a bad thing. I don't get that, not one bit.

Also if you are a 1 or two seed you are more likely to be upset if you don't reach the final four or regional finals due to seeding. Was Kentucky beating WSU this year really an up set? Yes by seed it was but in the overall scheme if the game no.
KU was predicted by most to lose to New Mexico and test they lost to Stanford.

So I will ask. What's a better loss? To Stanford or by Dayton? If it's the team that beats you than losing to Stanford would be a better loss than loosing to Dayton.

If you say losing to a hot Dayton team you can't be upset by losing to VCU, they were hot and made the final four.

I love KU basketball. I wouldn't trade anything they've done for anything they didn't work for and deserve.

I want to add this question for all that would trade 10 straight for one national title.

Would you trade your 10 year old ADHD child that makes you laugh, cry, makes you angry, amazes you and frustrates you for the senior class president that never gets in trouble you don't have to calm down or work with to become better????

Would you? You have to give up those ten years for just one year. Would you still?

@JRyman

I can see your previous post, but comparing a college basketball program to a child? Really? Maybe you can find a different analogy, but that's one that doesn't really work too well.

@JRyman First analogy that comes to my mind is would you trade your awesome home entertainment system / furniture in the den for a European vacation? The den might serve you well for 10 years, but that European vacation is the stuff of memories!

@wissoxfan83
Ok so you have this old pair of high tops. Their broke in they for just right you can play decent D in them hit a few jumpers but miss a few more threes than you'd like. But you can't dunk in them. So there's a new pair you can get that guarantee you to dunk just one time down at the Y. Now your D won't be as good, your jumper is gone and no one at the Y really wants you on their team like they did before. But you get to dunk one time.

What do you do? Keep or old shoes and become a legend at the Y or go for the new ones for that one dunk?

I went with the kid to make it hard. It wasn't meant to be easy. It was to make people really think. It's an apple to oranges comparison but it was made to really make you think about what the original question at the beginning of the thread asked.

First analogy that comes to my mind is would you trade your awesome home entertainment system / furniture in the den for a European vacation? The den might serve you well for 10 years, but that European vacation is the stuff of memories!

I'd rather go to the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone or the red wood forest than to Europe.

@JRyman But would you rather go to the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, or redwood forest than have the home entertainment system?

@approxinfinity I don't know how big is my tv? How powerful is my surround sound? How comfortable is my recliner?

Due to some of my health issues I do not like to fly as it causes some of the worst headaches you could imagine for about 48 hours. So I'd have to drive a long ways for any of those. So sitting in my recliner wouldn't be so bad.

@JRyman well clearly my analogy works as you are both the entertainment system guy and the 10 conference title guy :) would you trade the one title Self won (ie erase Marios shot) for ten more conference titles?

@JRyman I'm guessing it's a pretty sweet set-up! Recline away!!!

@approxinfinity I wouldn't!

@JRyman well clearly my analogy works as you are both the entertainment system guy and the 10 conference title guy :) would you trade the one title Self won (ie erase Marios shot) for ten more conference titles?

So 20 straight conference titles and no national title since 88. Tough one.

Probably not but since that 08 title landed within the original 10 year span why does it have to go?

Heck let's open a can of worms now. Say that Mario's shot doesn't go. Does Self leave after that season for OKst? Then where would Kansas basketball be? He is getting all these great recruits down there and winning 6 straight conference titles while KU is and 8 seed in the tournament?

@JRyman Self would never go to Ok State directly from Kansas. In my mind his fortune has always read "stay at KU until you burn out on college ball after Tyler graduates, then go pro if you can find the right fit, then maybe go back to Stillwater if you still feel like coaching."

@approxinfinity I'm just saying if the 08 title didn't happen the Bradley and Bucknell loses and the fans are on him more than they are now. No bonus from KU for winning the title can't get the extension he got either and his alma matter comes calling with a blank check from T Boone.

It becomes a domino effect. You change one thing and who knows what else changes along with it?

HEM,
I notice that you posed the question (stirred the pot) and then, presumably, just sat back and watched everyone respond.
You remind me of Lardass in the moveie Stand by Me. The kid who stood there with his arms folded and watched the havoc that he caused.

@Hawk8086 - That's pretty funny. Actually, I was coaching baseball all day in a tournament so was otherwise detained.

I hope everyone noticed that in my post, I made no criticism of coach Self, nor did I reference him.

The responses here are quite amazing, I think. A full range of thought on the topic.

I think, first, some presume that giving back the 10 conference titles means mediocrity. I wouldn't presume that.

Has UConn won any Big East regular season conference titles since and including 1999? I would think yes, but I don't know. But I don't care. They have won three NCAA titles in the stretch. Three. 1999, 2004, and 2011 (the final one should have been our title).

Since and including 1996, Kentucky has won three national titles (1996, 1997, and 2012). I know they've won conference titles. But I don't care.

Florida won back to back titles ... but conference titles? I don't know.

We know Duke and UNC have each won two national titles since and including 2001. Conference titles? I'm sure they've won some. I don't know.

What I said is that conference titles are a means to an end. But they, in the final analysis, really mean nothing. I provide the contrast to make a point for discussion. I want national championships. I want, as @Moonwalkmafia said, a "team built for March."

I saw the reference by @JayHawkFanToo to comparing Big 12 titles to Gonzaga's titles not being a fair comparison? Why not? Who in this conference ever does anything nationally? No one in this conference has won a national title except Kansas since when? The Model-T? How is this conference better than Gonzaga's? RPI? BPI? We were supposedly the best conference and no one even gets to the Elite 8. When we get on the national stage we are routinely pummeled. Look at KU's recruiting. My guess is, in a relative sense, our recruiting vs. the rest of the conference is pretty close to Gonzaga vs. the rest of their conference. And I acknowledge that the streak is amazing, it just has nothing to do with greatness. Zero.

And I always love strawman arguments like @JayHawkFanToo made -- referencing programs who had short term success "VCU, George Mason, or Butler ..." How in the world does that have anything to do with KU? Again, I know it's easy to argue this way, but it's not relevant in my humble opinion to Kansas.

@Blown "This post reeks of selfish ego, cynicism, and is a direct result of being spoiled by this programs successes."

Interesting. Actually, is it unrealistic to think that we can be UConn? And please, I hope no one cites academics with UConn or KU.

And now, we don't have a "handful of championships." We have 3. The first two, as we all know, in 1922 and 1923 are just silly to include. It's embarrassing when I see folks cite them.

This program has won but 3 national titles ... ever.

And we sit round and pat our backs about conference titles. It is Kool-Aid. It is a diversion. It is nice window dressing. It does allow some to wear t-shirts and talk smack to ISU fans from time to time.

For me, I am curious as to why, with all of our talent and recruiting, we can't find a game plan for success to beat UNI, VCU, and Stanford ... I mean, with a conference title preceding those contests and all. I don't expect national titles every season. But with our talent, we have been significantly shortchanged -- 1997, 2002, and 2011 without any doubt.

@Blown -- you say "Should I tell my kids there was no "success" in their year because they didn't win the last game."

My answer, no, you shouldn't say they had "no success." I never said that. But you should tell them that they are not a champion.

And being a champion, if you are playing at the highest level and you aspire to be thought of as elite, is the only true measure of greatness.

@HighEliteMajor I hate that the Big 12 has no other marquee teams and that the other teams never do anything in the tournament. I do think this year both ISU & OSU had FInal 4 talent, but like us were derailed by injuries. Okie St. was never the same without Cobbins. ISU lost it's biggest MUA when Niang went down - they easily beat UConn with him. And obviously we were pretty average without Embiid.

Anyway, yeah the Gonzaga comparison is a very appropriate one.

I do think there are always things to investigate & learn from & move forward after every season is over, though not much time can be spent away from the job to recharge now & reflect. Bill does this every year & while it's so simple for us to convey our "expertise" & wishes for the Jayhawks, Bill's system has reached many peaks in his tenure here. A tweak here or there is all I'd suggest for gameday matchups. That & being a better game coach in the dance with shorter times to prepare your squad might be desired also, but I personally ALWAYS enjoy the "ride" just some years it's a little more or less so & longer or more brief than others. KU Athletics/BB is what & who I am & always have been. My Dad ran track & vaulted in Memorial stadium in the 1920's & I listened to the 1952 NC with him when I was literally in the crib because we didn't have a big enough bed. I cried when Carolina won the 57 NC & again when Texas Western took the game from us in 1966. My children went to college there. I share all these things with total strangers because its who am, day in & out, each day I live. I would never mortgage any of our accomplishments in all of the histories we've earned through the blood & sweat of those before or after us. Never. The ride is always very good for many like me & always will be. It began with horses & buggies, emerged on trains then automobiles, & continues on with Boeings & Learjets. I would not be critical of those who do not view things as I, but will always try to take their points & thoughts into consideration to better understand all. After all-we are all on the same side, with the same goal, with the same team, and that is reason of in itself to enjoy the ride, because this is The University of Kansas Athletics...Rock Chalk !!

I do think there are always things to investigate & learn from & move forward after every season is over, though not much time can be spent away from the job to recharge now & reflect. Bill does this every year & while it's so simple for us to convey our "expertise" & wishes for the Jayhawks, Bill's system has reached many peaks in his tenure here. A tweak here or there is all I'd suggest for gameday matchups. That & being a better game coach in the dance with shorter times to prepare your squad might be desired also, but I personally ALWAYS enjoy the "ride" just some years it's a little more or less so & longer or more brief than others. KU Athletics/BB is what & who I am & always have been. My Dad ran track & vaulted in Memorial stadium in the 1920's & I listened to the 1952 NC with him when I was literally in the crib because we didn't have a big enough bed. I cried when Carolina won the 57 NC & again when Texas Western took the game from us in 1966. My children went to college there. I share all these things with total strangers because its who am, day in & out, each day I live. I would never mortgage any of our accomplishments in all of the histories we've earned through the blood & sweat of those before or after us. Never. The ride is always very good for many like me & always will be. It began with horses & buggies, emerged on trains then automobiles, & continues on with Boeings & Learjets. I would not be critical of those who do not view things as I, but will always try to take their points & thoughts into consideration to better understand all. After all-we are all on the same side, with the same goal, with the same team, and that is reason of in itself to enjoy the ride, because this is The University of Kansas Athletics...Rock Chalk !!

Enough said!

@JRyman-Thanks for the fav. Dad also played city league ball at the "fateful Topeka Y" in the early 1930's while working for the old Missouri Pacific RR there. He was only about 5'-10" but could still dunk one handed in his early 40's & when he passed at age 50, could still snatch the grab irons on a caboose & hold his body straight out horizontal. He was a stud when he was young & actually held the KS class A HS pole vault record for 40 years from 1923-1963 with a freaking bamboo pole. My future wife's cousin was actually the one to break it in 63 with a fiberglass pole. I'm undeniably very proud of where we come from, where we've been, and where we continually transpire to go. Again, ROCK CHALK !!

@KUSTEVE Based on your stats of the past 8 seasons, next year we are due for a Elite 8 or better appearance. So will it be at least Elite 8 without Embiid or as least Final 4 with Embiid?

I'd like to think our big men are the anchor of the team and they don't do that well in one year in Coach Self's system because it is difficult to learn for the big men.

By the way, I enjoyed the ride even with all the distractions of media hype, but I'd enjoy the ride a lot more if we advance past my base expectation. I like the meat and potato, but having a little gravy would be better.

HEM, I think most people that come to this site want KU to win a NC just as much as you do. You mentioned teams that had won it multiple times...UCONN, Duke, UNC, Florida, UK. How many of those have been since 2003, when Self took over? For the years prior to 2003, the question of why haven't we won should be directed to Williams, Owens, Harp, etc. And I really don't think Self should have been expected to compete for a NC in his first two or three years at KU.

One thing to remember is that it normally takes a lot of luck. You gotta admit there was luck involved with Mario's shot falling against Memphis. You also gotta admit there was a lot of luck in 1988 when all the top seeds kept losing. That was incredible.

If things had not gone KU's way those two years, then you would be talking 1952 since KU won a championship. Talk about frustration.

@HighElimeMajor

I saw the reference by @JayHawkFanToo to comparing Big 12 titles to Gonzaga's titles not being a fair comparison? Why not? Who in this conference ever does anything nationally? No one in this conference has won a national title except Kansas since when? The Model-T? How is this conference better than Gonzaga's? RPI? BPI? We were supposedly the best conference and no one even gets to the Elite 8. When we get on the national stage we are routinely pummeled.

HEM, actually you present a text book straw man argument. I very specifically stated the reason why the BIG 12 is a stronger conference.

Big 12 ended the season as the highest ranked conference by all ranking sources, and by all measured criteria. The West Coast Conference, on the other hand was ranked number 9.

The Big 12 had 7 teams at different times during the season ranked in the top 25. The West Coast Conference, on the other hand, only had 1 team. Gonzaga,

The Big 12 sent 7 teams or 70% to the NCAA Tournament. The West Coast Conference, on the other hand, sent only 2 (20%) and one was bubble team.

Those are actual, verifiable numbers and not a figment of my imagination.

While the differences year in and year out are not as pronounced as this year, the Big 12 is a much stronger conference than the West Coast Conference year in and year out, and no objective observer would claim that a West Conference title is comparable to a Big 12 Conference title.

The real straw man is to judge a team or conference or coach based solely by what they do (or don't do) in a couple of weeks at the end of the season instead of the entire body of work over the entire season or in KU's case for an extended period of time.

@approxinfinity

With all due respect your analogy is also apples to oranges,

Perhaps a better analogy would be: would you trade your awesome home entertainment system that is ranked among the top systems for the top rated system, for one year every ten years, and the rest of the time settle for something you pick at a big box store?

So, simply put...
How many of you would trade KU's season straight up with Kentucky's?

I certainly would. Final Four is better than any conference championship.

Heck, I would trade the last three years worth of seasons with Kentucky right now. A championship, A Final Four (could be more...ugh!) sandwich with the NIT Robert Morris egg in between.

@FarSideHawk Even if that means in 5 to 10 it might be vacated?

@FarSideHawk Yep. Not even a consideration. I'd take that without blinking.

@JRyman Well let's go out on a limb and assume no 'vacating' :)

I think this thread shows that we all live in a now world. There is nothing wrong with that, however, I will take the 10 conference championships now, and hope that I am lucky enough to witness KU winning a championship in March at some point in the next 5 years or so.

Some have said that they would trade places with Florida because they have been in 4 straight elite 8s. Does that mean that they would also take the two years not long ago in which they didn't make the tournament? I know that was immediately after winning back to back, but come on. Wouldn't there be some sort of Armageddon if we as fans had to watch not one, but two straight tournaments without the Jayhawks even being in the field?

The tournament is what it is. A brilliant concept that leaves millions of people heart broken every spring. Long ago I decided that for me personally, I needed to take a step back and understand that winning it all, while extremely satisfying as a fan, is one of those things that I can't let define either my fandom, or my perception of the coach of team that I love.

Having said that, the one thing that I would change about Self, is that he seems so tight in the tournament. I wasn't able to see the Stanford game as I was driving home from Pennsylvania, but man I could almost here him squeaking through the TV during that EKU game. He looked miserable.