🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Is the game passing Bill by?

All fiction no malice.

No. Look at 2020 and 21 recruiting. All smalls.

Agree, jury is out until we have a seasoned modern roster. They have to shoot well.

The next three games should be wins. If not... UH OH.

Trey Point Shooters Please.

Settle on an offensive identity. Practice it, eat it, sleep it. That's what is holding them back

AsadZ said:

Trey Point Shooters Please.

Can we sneak Bryce Thompson onto the roster now?

@BShark

I'd be surprised if we do. Short turnaround to Norman and Dotson and Garrett are not healthy

BeddieKU23 said:

Settle on an offensive identity. Practice it, eat it, sleep it. That's what is holding them back

We have just got to get rid of this dam 2 Big's. - Why even start a two Big line up if you pull him after 2-3 minutes ? - -This two big line up is just junk.

BeddieKU23 said:

@BShark

I'd be surprised if we do. Short turnaround to Norman and Dotson and Garrett are not healthy

Still gotta beat a team like OU.

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

@BShark

I'd be surprised if we do. Short turnaround to Norman and Dotson and Garrett are not healthy

Still gotta beat a team like OU.

This loss will be difficult to overcome + the injuries. Its about to get rocky. This was arguably the worst game of the year on offense. Hope they have short memories and the coaches figure something out.

Good thing OU cant defend but at home they will make 3s.

Yes, it's a game you have to win and should win but I think a bunch of humble pie came our way today

OU has 3 awesome shooters from 3. That’s game is far from a lock. I actually won’t be surprised one bit if they lose that.

The game is definitely passing him by, it ain’t 15 or 20 years ago. Got to have some shooters and to get some offense without Dot on the floor.

Not having any shooters is just so damn frustrating. I just don’t understand why we can’t find any. Moss is OK but just so inconsistent.

@Woodrow and if he's off, he doesn't add much

Wow that hurt

We were exposed.

I have to hand it to Drew. He has upped his coaching over the past 5 years and he came ready today. Never winning in AFH didn't hold him or his players down. They were confident and they never lost their cool. They came in an executed a game plan and it was their game plan that won it today. I wouldn't trade our personnel for theirs.

We played soft. How many 50/50 balls did we get? Any? Did we have a single break away basket? No! It was the old phrase "deer in the headlights" look for us today. Did anyone see any optimism expressed in our game? Any players smacking their hands together and chatting up the fellas?

We clearly lost confidence and went soft. Even our defense slacked off. We couldn't mount an offensive attack and we felt inferior. Meanwhile, Baylor continually built confidence the entire game.

There is something glaring and I've been mentioning this for years. Baylor came in and played great defense. I put them near a Nova team. We never respond well to aggressive defense. Why? Because we don't practice specifically to attack an aggressive defense. How many backdoor alleyoops did we run today? Zero! In fact, we ran very few set plays. I've said all along this year that this team will need to be running plenty of set plays. When we did run set plays (after timeouts) we were successful. We have to learn to ATTACK aggressive offense instead of fold them up! Today we folded. Players must learn how to attack aggressive defense and draw fouls. The way to end aggressive defense is to get them in foul trouble and we should have had Baylor in foul trouble today, but we weren't attacking.

Tough loss, and I hope we learn from it, but I'm not counting on seeing our coaching coming around to attacking aggressive defense. It is something we have to practice regularly in practice, just like end game practicing.

If Moss would have hit that corner three to cut it to 2, the roof would have blown off AFH. Would have changed the game

If we're saying it's fiction that Drew outcoached Self today, well, it ain't fiction.

1. The continued "starting" of Doke and Dave has to end, doesn't it? That's just a stupid Self decision. No dressing it up. Everyone knows it. Why start Dave, limit our chance for a quick start (setting the groundwork for the rest of the game). We know Self thinks it isn't the best team because he doesn't do it the rest of the game. He played 10 minutes, and played the first 4-5 minutes.

2. Watch Baylor play defense. Go back and watch Baylor's priorities on defense. They actively and intensely guarded the three point line AND they denied the entry to Doke. They gladly permitted two point jumpers much of the time. We don't do that. We have different priorities. Self could do well to watch the tape and emulate what Drew did at the line.

3. We had zero ability to overcome Drew taking away Doke. Sound familiar? Nova in 2016 with Ellis? We scored 59 points in that one. 55 here. Feed the post to Ellis. Ellis 1-5. Feed the post to Doke. Doke 3-6. Go to guys with very limited shot attempts. Then,, from three - Shot 27% vs. Nova from three. Shot 27% today from three. Guys, this stuff doesn't change with Self. This is where a coach has to have an answer. We had no answer. Self had no answer then, didn't have an answer now.

4. More wide open threes by our opponents. See, when teams miss wide open threes and we jump for joy as if we did something, it means nothing. That's what we heard after the Nova game a few weeks ago. Some closed their eyes to the nature of the looks (wide open), falling back on the fact that they missed. And ignored our passive guarding of the line. Someone even wanted to argue about whether Nova was a good three point shooting team coming in. Just foolishness. Baylor was shoot 35.8% from three coming in. Look what they did. But if you give up open looks -- the likelihood that a team in the NCAA tourney capitalizes in one of the games -- is pretty high. Baylor beat us by 12. They made four more three pointers than we did. They also took four more three pointer than we did. Just an observation.

5. For those that think somehow that our offense doesn't matter, that we have to win with defense, here is "Exhibit B" for our tourney exit. Exhibit A was Dayton. We only attempted 15 three point shots. We only made four. If Self does not get our offense functioning better, well, we know how this ends.

6. Moss is an illusion. He's #fakenews. He shot 25% from three and around 40% from two. He did nothing else, playing big minutes. 30 minutes. 3 rebounds. 1 assist. No steals. Heck, no "disruptions." This is an idle complaint/observation. He has to play.

7. Not trying to be too dramatic here, but if Agbaji plays like this, we're in deep trouble. Regardless of anything else. He is critical.

8. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the kind of game a highly functioning DeSousa could have helped. Pull Doke, play fast, get DeSousa moving on the perimeter. But it's moot.

Drew had an excellent defensive game plan. But remember, the coach's job is to create scoring chances, open looks. We failed miserably today. Self has to take most of the responsibility for today. Some days, Self gets the credit. Baylor had better, more open looks. They had more quality scoring chances. Period.

Oh, and cue the dismissive "sky is falling" posts that surely follow.

@drgnslayr pretty much exactly what I was getting at on the game chat. I’m just not as nice about it. Watch here comes a crying @PharmacyHawk. We had zero fight today and probably didn’t even earn Baylor’s respect let alone most folks that watched it.

Scott Drew NCOY lock

I'm at the point with this team that I say screw spreading the floor and trying to make a 4 guard line up work because KU doesn't have the shooters to make that offense work this year.

Commit to a 2 big system, but not the high-low because none of the bigs have the range to make it work. The strength of the guards is driving and the strength of the bigs is traditional back to the basket offense. Use a motion offense to create the looks for McCormack at the FT line because he can hit that shot and if the defense comes up to double him, kick out to a guard to drive if that's where the double team comes from or dump it in to Doke of that's where the double team comes from. If the defense doesn't double, then McCormack can either take that that 15' which is his range or get it back to Dotson or Garrett to reset the offense.

Also, the offense looked a lot better with Garrett running the point today. The one run KU had today was with Garrett running the show when KU got the deficit down to 5 in the second half.

Turnovers and Butler. One is a team problem one was an individual player being better then the other 9 guys on the floor. That's what it took to win in Allen. There were tons of other issues and reasons for the result but this was one of the first times an individual player has impacted the game so much that the 5 KU players couldn't overcome it. Tons of concern out of this game.

Dotson and Garrett's health is deteriorating to the point it's worth considering sitting them on Tuesday. What's more important, OU or the tourney??? We already know both will play but the worst thing that can happen is one or both of them getting injured to the point they cant play at all. I'm worried

Texas Hawk 10 said:

I'm at the point with this team that I say screw spreading the floor and trying to make a 4 guard line up work because KU doesn't have the shooters to make that offense work this year.

Commit to a 2 big system, but not the high-low because none of the bigs have the range to make it work. The strength of the guards is driving and the strength of the bigs is traditional back to the basket offense. Use a motion offense to create the looks for McCormack at the FT line because he can hit that shot and if the defense comes up to double him, kick out to a guard to drive if that's where the double team comes from or dump it in to Doke of that's where the double team comes from. If the defense doesn't double, then McCormack can either take that that 15' which is his range or get it back to Dotson or Garrett to reset the offense.

Also, the offense looked a lot better with Garrett running the point today. The one run KU had today was with Garrett running the show when KU got the deficit down to 5 in the second half.

Really, seems we're pretty ineffective 3-2. That's not to say we've got great outside shooting.

Bwag said:

Texas Hawk 10 said:

I'm at the point with this team that I say screw spreading the floor and trying to make a 4 guard line up work because KU doesn't have the shooters to make that offense work this year.

Commit to a 2 big system, but not the high-low because none of the bigs have the range to make it work. The strength of the guards is driving and the strength of the bigs is traditional back to the basket offense. Use a motion offense to create the looks for McCormack at the FT line because he can hit that shot and if the defense comes up to double him, kick out to a guard to drive if that's where the double team comes from or dump it in to Doke of that's where the double team comes from. If the defense doesn't double, then McCormack can either take that that 15' which is his range or get it back to Dotson or Garrett to reset the offense.

Also, the offense looked a lot better with Garrett running the point today. The one run KU had today was with Garrett running the show when KU got the deficit down to 5 in the second half.

Really, seems we're pretty ineffective 3-2. That's not to say we've got great outside shooting.

Self's ineffective with his version of the 2 big offense which is the high-low. None of the bigs have the range to make the high-low work. The 4 guard system isn't working either because Self doesn't have the shooters to to make defenses respect that. The answer is a more traditional offense that plays off the strengths of the current roster. The motion offense is that offense that plays to the strengths of this roster.

In the motion offense, the perimeter players are looking for gaps in the defense to drive. If the defense stays home, one of the post players shoots up to the FT line and forces the defense make a decision. 15' is about the limit of McCormack's range so this offense would work better with 2 bigs than what Self's trying to do now. Enaruna also has that range so it would make him more valuable as well in that offense.

There would be a sacrifice on defense to doing this, but the gains in offense would be worth that sacrifice.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree, we can either continue to hope we make 3s or change it up. The defense is better than it has been in years when we want it to be but it’s hard to hold everyone under 60. Which is what we will have to against a good team.

So if I’m an opposing coach, I would want the ball in Dave’s hands 15 feet from the basket every possession. So there is that. Dave can’t put it on the floor and drive. Dave can’t pass. Dave fumbles the ball around when there is any pressure much of the time. Dave shooting from 15 feet would make any sane opposing coach happy.

The 3/2 is dependent on Silvio somehow becoming the player we expected, OR possibly playing a guard, like Brain, as the “high”? The latter simply spit ballin’.

@HighEliteMajor we keep giving Silvio chances and I was all for it til after today. We had a lead til he came in. Big swing! I feel like we can only play him at the end w/big leads. Pains me to say!

Self isn't going to make radical change now. We're halfway through the year. What we rolled into conference play with is what we'll continue conference play
with.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I'd rather commit to the 4-1 then try to hack the 3-2 and make it work, even if we fail with a 4-1 this year because of personnel. Then we recruit personnel to fit the 4-1, saying "we need you". It's time to be all in.

Marcus needs to be healthy, make crisp passes and lead through smothering defense.

Dotson needs to be healthy, continue to drive and shoot somewhere in the 35% range from 3.

Dave needs to be Doke's backup. Promise him his time to shine at the 5 is next year. Work his ass off as B-team in practice against
Doke. Be Doke but more mobile guarding perimeter next year.

Play Silvio at the 4, he's the only big suited for the 4. If you want to go "big" at the 4, it should be Silvio and he should also try to hoist more 3's. He made one earlier. I think this was Self's idea today. Except... a) it shouldn't be Dave thats the 5, and b) it shouldn't be in one of the most important games of the season.

Braun needs to forget he's a freshman. Forget he's in college. Find his avatar state and just stay there until the season's over.

Agbaji needs to continue to let his defense lead him, and hoist 3 balls all practice.

Moss not hitting 3's? That's like a field goal kicker that forgets how to kick. Not useful.

jayballer73 said:

BeddieKU23 said:

Settle on an offensive identity. Practice it, eat it, sleep it. That's what is holding them back

We have just got to get rid of this dam 2 Big's. - Why even start a two Big line up if you pull him after 2-3 minutes ? - -This two big line up is just junk.

I think sometimes it works, other times it doesn’t. It’s Self’s job to figure out when. He’s gotta be flexible.

It looked like Braun today was the one that lost the 3 pt shooters today. Confidence is great on O, but he can’t be helter skelter on D

Hard to overcome a flawed roster.

HighEliteMajor said:

So if I’m an opposing coach, I would want the ball in Dave’s hands 15 feet from the basket every possession. So there is that. Dave can’t put it on the floor and drive. Dave can’t pass. Dave fumbles the ball around when there is any pressure much of the time. Dave shooting from 15 feet would make any sane opposing coach happy.

The 3/2 is dependent on Silvio somehow becoming the player we expected, OR possibly playing a guard, like Brain, as the “high”? The latter simply spit ballin’.

Silvio sucks at this point, simple as that. I also never said anything about McCormack needing to put the ball on the ground. 15' is about the extent of his range so if opposing coaches are giving him that, I'm telling him to take that shot every time he's left alone there because he's going to hit that shot about 60-65% of the time from there. If opposing defenses never adjust to that, then McCormack ends up with some 20 point games on a good night. If they do adjust, then the lanes open up for the guards to drive and the paint opens up for Doke down low.

As a basketball coach, I was told to not adjust your line up to the other team, especially if you had the superior talent which KU does against just about everyone on their schedule. You stay in your lane and force the other team to adjust to you and KU's current roster isn't suited for a 4 guard offense because of the lack of shooting. It's suited for a traditional offense with 2 traditional bigs and Self needs to fully embrace bully ball to make that run this year.

BigBad said:

Hard to overcome a flawed roster.

Every roster is flawed. What good coaches need to do is play up the strengths of their roster. Self hasn't done a great job of that this year. Self is trying to straddle the line between two different offensive philosophies and the result is the worst KU offense of the Bill Self era. Self should've committed to one system over the Christmas break and installed whatever system he wanted to try and salvage the offense this year.

@Texas-Hawk-10 gosh, it sure didn’t look like we had the best talent today

@Texas-Hawk-10 maybe if dot, och, Marcus played at their 100% best, yes. But gotta find a 4 spot

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 gosh, it sure didn’t look like we had the best talent today

KU absolutely has better talent than Baylor. Today was a combination of KU playing with next to no energy and Self having a bad game plan today and not making good adjustments.

Well everyone is right about Silvio. Can barely afford to play him.

@Texas-Hawk-10 If you’re putting Dave at the top, from 15 feet out, in the hi/low, he has to be able to put it on the deck and drive. A key element of the hi/low. And no, Dave isn’t hitting 60-65% of his 15 footers. It’s a horrible shot for us to rely on. Horrible.

It still sucks we got punked at home by Baylor and Scott Drew. At least they are a good ranked team. I just miss the days when people were scared to come to AFH and the place was loud. I swear every year I go it gets quieter and more folks sitting down on cell phones.

@kjayhawks I've been to 2 games this yr, the place was crazy! Before this year I got to go to probably 6-7 games a year. Always loud and fun! You are just full of it and I'm calling you out!

HighEliteMajor said:

Well everyone is right about Silvio. Can barely afford to play him.

@Texas-Hawk-10 If you’re putting Dave at the top, from 15 feet out, in the hi/low, he has to be able to put it on the deck and drive. A key element of the hi/low. And no, Dave isn’t hitting 60-65% of his 15 footers. It’s a horrible shot for us to rely on. Horrible.

Maybe you should read my posts in their entirety instead of cherry picking. At no point in this thread have I said that Self's two big offense at this point should be the high-low like you are trying to claim. I specifically, in multiple posts, said the two big offense at this point should be a traditional motion offense with McCormack being the one flaring up to the FT line if the defense plays tight on the perimeter and doesn't allow the guards to turn the corner and drive.

In an ideal version of this version of a motion offense, Dotson and Garrett driving would be the first option, McCormack or Doke coming up to screen would be a way to create mismatches and get slower guys on Dotson and Garrett if defenses switch. If they don't switch, Dotson and Garrett should have the angle to drive the lane.

The second option would be Doke off of those drives. If a defender is fronting Doke, then Doke is one of the best in the business at establishing position and he could easily move his man up the paint to set himself up for some easy baskets.

McCormack from the FT line would be the third option. And yes, he would he hit 60-65% of 15' jumpers if he's open. If defenses guard him one on one, then kick it back to a guard and reset. If the double is coming from Doke's guy, then easy pass to Doke.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@kjayhawks I've been to 2 games this yr, the place was crazy! Before this year I got to go to probably 6-7 games a year. Always loud and fun! You are just full of it and I'm calling you out!

They've rearranged the student section in recent years so AFH definitely isn't as loud as it was because they've put more high dollar donor seats closer to the floor and pushed students further up the bleachers.

@Crimsonorblue22 I think it was louder several years ago. I see more people playing on cell phones. Several others on here have mentioned this in the past few years. Say did the KU boo the opposing team when they came out? Asking for @jayballer73

@Texas-Hawk-10 bingo

Texas Hawk 10 said:

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@kjayhawks I've been to 2 games this yr, the place was crazy! Before this year I got to go to probably 6-7 games a year. Always loud and fun! You are just full of it and I'm calling you out!

They've rearranged the student section in recent years so AFH definitely isn't as loud as it was because they've put more high dollar donor seats closer to the floor and pushed students further up the bleachers.

Yep. The KU Senate reneged on their deal with KUAD to pay a fee and keep the section on the floor and lost that section on the sideline.

@kjayhawks always, but u started out saying our fans were booing our players, never, ever seen that. Boo refs. Been to fb games, no booing, one Vb and one baseball game, no booing. Worked KU relays, no booing. KU fans are classy, we applaud Kevin Durant, buddy hield and George Nieng-sp?, W/standing O's.

There was a $50 per student fee that the KU Student Senate voted to remove. Section U went to deep pocket donors to accomodate part of the loss of money, which in total was $1.1mil

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article491664/KU-plans-to-reallocate-some-courtside-Allen-Fieldhouse-student-seats-for-donors.html ↗

Allen Fieldhouse crowd breaks record for noise during KU game

Crowd noise hits 130.4 dB during first half, takes record from Kentucky

Share
KMBC Updated: 9:54 AM CST Feb 14, 2017
After students were moved, I was there

@Crimsonorblue22 yes, I had a friend said they did. @jayballer73 said ku fans have never booed anyone even opposing teams repeatedly. Go back and read please and comprehend. I’m not gonna argue with you, I respect you too much.

@kjayhawks I know, don't talk down to me. I answered your question, leave me out of your messes.

@Crimsonorblue22 don’t tell people they are full of it then cry when they call you out on it and prove you wrong. You don’t get to insult people then whine when they come back. I talk to others how they talk to me. I wasn’t try to talk down to anyone. I usually don’t have an issue with you so have a good night.

@kjayhawks you proved me wrong?

@Crimsonorblue22 I can post a picture of jayballer saying KU fans never boo college kids and Texas hawk said he too thought it was quieter. I respect you and do not wish to argue. I usually enjoy talking with you. That is all on the subject.

That's not on me, my beef is fans booing our players. I don't believe that. That's what I was talking about. I told u when u asked me about that. I'll say it again, we, KU fans, ALWAYS yell BOO when the opposing team in basketball runs in.

@kjayhawks my cousin's son is a student and was there and his gf is a cheerleader. He said they, the students booed 31 a lot because he air balled and then hit a 3 and shhhhhshed🤫 the crowd. They said nobody booed the KU players!

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Allen Fieldhouse crowd breaks record for noise during KU game

Crowd noise hits 130.4 dB during first half, takes record from Kentucky

Share
KMBC Updated: 9:54 AM CST Feb 14, 2017
After students were moved, I was there

That record is kind hollow though because it didn't happen during the course of the game. That happened during a TV timeout with the Guinness people there.

The loudest AFH has been since the reconfiguration was the WVU comeback, but it still wasn't as loud as Missouri in 2012 or the UCLA comeback.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I was there, it was during the West Virginia game. I was also at that Missouri game too.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 I was there, it was during the West Virginia game. I was also at that Missouri game too.

It's hard to judge in person because of you're only really hearing what's around you. I can tell you from TV, that WVU game was loud, but not at the levels of the Missouri or UCLA games.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

HighEliteMajor said:

So if I’m an opposing coach, I would want the ball in Dave’s hands 15 feet from the basket every possession. So there is that. Dave can’t put it on the floor and drive. Dave can’t pass. Dave fumbles the ball around when there is any pressure much of the time. Dave shooting from 15 feet would make any sane opposing coach happy.

The 3/2 is dependent on Silvio somehow becoming the player we expected, OR possibly playing a guard, like Brain, as the “high”? The latter simply spit ballin’.

Silvio sucks at this point, simple as that. I also never said anything about McCormack needing to put the ball on the ground. 15' is about the extent of his range so if opposing coaches are giving him that, I'm telling him to take that shot every time he's left alone there because he's going to hit that shot about 60-65% of the time from there. If opposing defenses never adjust to that, then McCormack ends up with some 20 point games on a good night. If they do adjust, then the lanes open up for the guards to drive and the paint opens up for Doke down low.

As a basketball coach, I was told to not adjust your line up to the other team, especially if you had the superior talent which KU does against just about everyone on their schedule. You stay in your lane and force the other team to adjust to you and KU's current roster isn't suited for a 4 guard offense because of the lack of shooting. It's suited for a traditional offense with 2 traditional bigs and Self needs to fully embrace bully ball to make that run this year.

If Silvio doesn't come back next year he is a fool, but to honest - call me callous - I'm not sure that I want him to come back. Enaruna needs to play more next year (probably should play more now, but - you know Bill - it's not going to happen).

@Marco he was playing him, he kinda cooked his own goose. Braun just outplayed him, don't you think? He may get more time this week if we rest dot and or Marcus.😩

Marco said:

Texas Hawk 10 said:

HighEliteMajor said:

So if I’m an opposing coach, I would want the ball in Dave’s hands 15 feet from the basket every possession. So there is that. Dave can’t put it on the floor and drive. Dave can’t pass. Dave fumbles the ball around when there is any pressure much of the time. Dave shooting from 15 feet would make any sane opposing coach happy.

The 3/2 is dependent on Silvio somehow becoming the player we expected, OR possibly playing a guard, like Brain, as the “high”? The latter simply spit ballin’.

Silvio sucks at this point, simple as that. I also never said anything about McCormack needing to put the ball on the ground. 15' is about the extent of his range so if opposing coaches are giving him that, I'm telling him to take that shot every time he's left alone there because he's going to hit that shot about 60-65% of the time from there. If opposing defenses never adjust to that, then McCormack ends up with some 20 point games on a good night. If they do adjust, then the lanes open up for the guards to drive and the paint opens up for Doke down low.

As a basketball coach, I was told to not adjust your line up to the other team, especially if you had the superior talent which KU does against just about everyone on their schedule. You stay in your lane and force the other team to adjust to you and KU's current roster isn't suited for a 4 guard offense because of the lack of shooting. It's suited for a traditional offense with 2 traditional bigs and Self needs to fully embrace bully ball to make that run this year.

If Silvio doesn't come back next year he is a fool, but to honest - call me callous - I'm not sure that I want him to come back. Enaruna needs to play more next year (probably should play more now, but - you know Bill - it's not going to happen).

I for one want him back. He’s a great kid and talented player. We certainly need the depth up front. Dave and Mitch aren’t exactly making me excited. Not sure where the scholarship would go either. 2020 recruiting is done barring a surprise decommit.

@FarmerJayhawk Agree. I think we may need Silvio next year very badly.

@FarmerJayhawk

Dave has been very disappointing against good teams this yr. The stats are alarming

@FarmerJayhawk Heard the staff had been still looking recently. Does this mean they now expect everyone (sans Dotson) to stay?

BeddieKU23 said:

@FarmerJayhawk

Dave has been very disappointing against good teams this yr. The stats are alarming

He has a lot to learn but the reps against good teams will help.

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

@FarmerJayhawk

Dave has been very disappointing against good teams this yr. The stats are alarming

He has a lot to learn but the reps against good teams will help.

Yeah its something that I've been paying attention to. We see his potential playing less talented and smaller teams. He was a non factor yesterday and some of that is the coaches fault for continuing the 2 big charade and playing him out of position. Still I saw some troubling things from him yesterday from an effort standpoint as well as his continual quirk of falling on the floor and taking himself out of plays. I dont know if I'm expecting too much but if he is a starter on this roster he should be producing no matter the opponent. Hopefully at some point the light bulb comes on for him

Outside of Doke the bigs have laughable against anyone decent. The 4-1 that we are currently running will not work with out consistent outside shooting. They pretty much had Doke surrounded from the get go, making it difficult to even get an entry pass in. This hurt the dribble drive of Garrett and Dot because even if they got around their man, there was 2 guys waiting in the lane. We have to run an offense that get Doke moving more and not just standing there. I’d scrap this offense if I was Self and find something else to run.

Anyone that thinks Allen Fieldhouse isn’t as loud as ever just hasn’t been. It looks quieter, because all you see are the first 5 rows during the game and those are damn expensive seats - generally it takes years to generate that kind of wealth so less youth. But if the camera was interested in the crowd instead of the game you’d see the biggest fans losing their shit every game from just a bit higher up than the cameras go clear to the f’n rafters. It’s just ignorant to think you could find a better atmosphere, but if you haven’t been you wouldn’t know just how in the dark you are.

Crowd noise is measured as a peak volume, but if sustained crowd noise was measurable it wouldn’t be close - Allen field house by a mile. (...and the government would probably issue a warning and mandate hearing protection)

Yes fans boo the other team. The entire student section holds up newspapers when the opposing lineup is announced (as in I’ve got better things to do) and boo as they come out. They boo opposing coaches and players and the refs too, but never the boys in crimson and blue. The worst the home team ever hears is silence and it’s deafening. The silence is more demoralizing and detrimental to the team than boos ever could be, that’s when the players know the best fans in sports have given up on them.

@dylans I feel like it isn’t consistently as loud as it use to be. I go to at least one game a year. As I said I see more people during the game on cell phones. I don’t usually spend time on my phone unless its half time or I see something strange I’ll put it on here during a timeout to see if the TV caught it.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Some observations, the first five directed at your posts -

1. David McCormack, 15-footer, "third option": I'm telling you, your suggestion is absolutely absurd. There are sometimes that one "fact" provides that demonstration. You just claimed that for our offense, Dave McCormack shooting a 15 footer should be our "third option." You rely on the further absurd claim that he could shoot 60-65% on those shots. But you will believe what you believe. And you know you're right.

2. Traditional Offenses: We have two "centers" -- Dave and Doke. We don't have a power forward. "Traditional" basketball -- traditional offenses -- have a "center" and a "power forward". Not two centers. In most "motion" offenses -- meaning with two bigs -- a major weakness is the inflexibility of a traditional big when that big is extended. It's an attack point for defenses. That's because the "center" does get extended around the lane area. Because you never concede anything, I don't expect you to acknowledge this. We have two centers on the floor.

3. Snap your fingers, install an offense: I didn't cherry pick. I read your post. I moved past the ridiculous suggestion of a "traditional motion offense" at this point. And it is ridiculous. I guess, here's what we do, according to you. We just install in mid-January a traditional motion offense. Just install it. Now. Snap your fingers. You are aware of practice limitations, I assume. Should I assume that you are aware of the complexity of motion offenses? Motion offenses involve multiple intricacies, options, decisions, and then reactions to those decisions -- all that have to be made with a real motion offense. You know, ones that are used at the college level. Not some of the claimed "motion" offenses that are used teaching middle-schoolers. Real motion offenses take time time to learn and time to teach. I would compare it to 2015 when Self put in a bare-bones, ridiculously simple 4/1 offense. It won us one game (OU I think at home) but after that, when teams had seen it in on tape, it was largely ineffective -- it was quite rudimentary. Kind of like our "bad ball" abomination. As shift on the fly deal that was a disaster.

4. Defense: Do you plan to change our defense to a zone? Do you think that Dave and Doke can do the trick? This is perhaps not a fair criticism. The way Self defends, his priorities, make it very difficult to play both together. If we pretty much permitted the 15 footer out to just inside the arc, it would make the job of our bigs easier, even if both were on the floor. They would know they had no responsibility in that range to prevent a shot. Self's defensive philosophy makes this very hard. And, of course, we know that Self will react to good 4/1 offenses and guard them with our 4/1 personnel. So there is that reality.

5. Timing: You may be right about the best offense. You might be. But the timing makes it impractical. If you're saying that such a move NOW would be the best option, I strongly disagree given the complexity and the fact that a rudimentary offense (I think) will make us worse. That's what I understand you are saying. If you say we would be best with this type of offense (meaning if we had run it from the start), that's more of a discussion I think.

6. Silvio: @approxinfinity is right. Silvio is our only true 4 guy. He'd be the only one that would work in the hi/low. I mentioned a question of whether we'd be better with Mitch and Doke right now. Meaning, Dave redshirted and we have Mitch. I know Mitch has a somewhat obvious ceiling, but I personally think they dynamic would be better. And Mitch is quicker, can guard smaller guys, and of course, blocks shots. Not saying that Mitch starting is a good thing, though.

7. 4/1: I agree with @approxinfinity on this as well. I think it's best that wego all in on the 4/1 and run with it. I would start Braun. Make him the chosen. Let the chips fall where they may. That seems like the most realistic solution at the moment.

8. Guard the line: Much like with Agabji and needing him to perform, if we don't attack and actively guard the line, all of this discussion is moot. We aren't winning the NC giving up open threes as a matter of course.

9. Newell: Just an observation, but he seems to have been right on the Baylor game. Obviously he was mocked by some for having the temerity to pick against KU.

kjayhawks said:

It still sucks we got punked at home by Baylor and Scott Drew. At least they are a good ranked team. I just miss the days when people were scared to come to AFH and the place was loud. I swear every year I go it gets quieter and more folks sitting down on cell phones.

I will agree with you there. I've have noticed myself , not like it use to be. Oh it CAN BE. - - BUT if we get behind 6-7 points and playin ehh. - it becomes very silent, real fanatics need to be 100 % - - all the time. -Make it a place NO ONE wants to come play at. Still really good , but for sure have seen it lose some of that edge intimidation. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Texas Hawk 10 said:

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@kjayhawks I've been to 2 games this yr, the place was crazy! Before this year I got to go to probably 6-7 games a year. Always loud and fun! You are just full of it and I'm calling you out!

They've rearranged the student section in recent years so AFH definitely isn't as loud as it was because they've put more high dollar donor seats closer to the floor and pushed students further up the bleachers.

Thanks for that explanation guy, I hadn't realized that had happen. Kind of Sucks. I understand they want to accommodate the high dollar donors, understandable Yet wish they could figure a way without moving the students either cause the are the energy. They are 85 % probably oh what gets that place juiced - -rockin. You are like kjayhawks & myself said and I know others that say it is just not as loud. - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

HighEliteMajor said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 Some observations, the first five directed at your posts -

1. David McCormack, 15-footer, "third option": I'm telling you, your suggestion is absolutely absurd. There are sometimes that one "fact" provides that demonstration. You just claimed that for our offense, Dave McCormack shooting a 15 footer should be our "third option." You rely on the further absurd claim that he could shoot 60-65% on those shots. But you will believe what you believe. And you know you're right.

2. Traditional Offenses: We have two "centers" -- Dave and Doke. We don't have a power forward. "Traditional" basketball -- traditional offenses -- have a "center" and a "power forward". Not two centers. In most "motion" offenses -- meaning with two bigs -- a major weakness is the inflexibility of a traditional big when that big is extended. It's an attack point for defenses. That's because the "center" does get extended around the lane area. Because you never concede anything, I don't expect you to acknowledge this. We have two centers on the floor.

3. Snap your fingers, install an offense: I didn't cherry pick. I read your post. I moved past the ridiculous suggestion of a "traditional motion offense" at this point. And it is ridiculous. I guess, here's what we do, according to you. We just install in mid-January a traditional motion offense. Just install it. Now. Snap your fingers. You are aware of practice limitations, I assume. Should I assume that you are aware of the complexity of motion offenses? Motion offenses involve multiple intricacies, options, decisions, and then reactions to those decisions -- all that have to be made with a real motion offense. You know, ones that are used at the college level. Not some of the claimed "motion" offenses that are used teaching middle-schoolers. Real motion offenses take time time to learn and time to teach. I would compare it to 2015 when Self put in a bare-bones, ridiculously simple 4/1 offense. It won us one game (OU I think at home) but after that, when teams had seen it in on tape, it was largely ineffective -- it was quite rudimentary. Kind of like our "bad ball" abomination. As shift on the fly deal that was a disaster.

4. Defense: Do you plan to change our defense to a zone? Do you think that Dave and Doke can do the trick? This is perhaps not a fair criticism. The way Self defends, his priorities, make it very difficult to play both together. If we pretty much permitted the 15 footer out to just inside the arc, it would make the job of our bigs easier, even if both were on the floor. They would know they had no responsibility in that range to prevent a shot. Self's defensive philosophy makes this very hard. And, of course, we know that Self will react to good 4/1 offenses and guard them with our 4/1 personnel. So there is that reality.

5. Timing: You may be right about the best offense. You might be. But the timing makes it impractical. If you're saying that such a move NOW would be the best option, I strongly disagree given the complexity and the fact that a rudimentary offense (I think) will make us worse. That's what I understand you are saying. If you say we would be best with this type of offense (meaning if we had run it from the start), that's more of a discussion I think.

6. Silvio: @approxinfinity is right. Silvio is our only true 4 guy. He'd be the only one that would work in the hi/low. I mentioned a question of whether we'd be better with Mitch and Doke right now. Meaning, Dave redshirted and we have Mitch. I know Mitch has a somewhat obvious ceiling, but I personally think they dynamic would be better. And Mitch is quicker, can guard smaller guys, and of course, blocks shots. Not saying that Mitch starting is a good thing, though.

7. 4/1: I agree with @approxinfinity on this as well. I think it's best that wego all in on the 4/1 and run with it. I would start Braun. Make him the chosen. Let the chips fall where they may. That seems like the most realistic solution at the moment.

8. Guard the line: Much like with Agabji and needing him to perform, if we don't attack and actively guard the line, all of this discussion is moot. We aren't winning the NC giving up open threes as a matter of course.

9. Newell: Just an observation, but he seems to have been right on the Baylor game. Obviously he was mocked by some for having the temerity to pick against KU.

FWIW I mock Newell because his columns are barely C level work. He doesn’t demonstrate he understands what analytics are or the difference between association and causation. Making causal arguments from descriptive statistics is journo level garbage. He just doesn’t understand how to draw causal inferences, which is fine since he’s a journo and not an econometrician but he needs to own that and stay in his lane. Let the quants for their thing and leave the maths to folks who get it.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@kjayhawks always, but u started out saying our fans were booing our players, never, ever seen that. Boo refs. Been to fb games, no booing, one Vb and one baseball game, no booing. Worked KU relays, no booing. KU fans are classy, we applaud Kevin Durant, buddy hield and George Nieng-sp?, W/standing O's.

Exactly , that's because MOST KU fans are class and appreciate talent when they see it. - -I remember the love they gave Buddy when we go tdone it was special

BShark said:

@FarmerJayhawk Heard the staff had been still looking recently. Does this mean they now expect everyone (sans Dotson) to stay?

They always look in case something pops open due to a transfer or whatnot but there’s not really a specific guy they’re really hard after as of today.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Allen Fieldhouse crowd breaks record for noise during KU game

Crowd noise hits 130.4 dB during first half, takes record from Kentucky

Share
KMBC Updated: 9:54 AM CST Feb 14, 2017
After students were moved, I was there

that is one incident - there has become many more where it is just not as loud as previous times. - On top of that another reason that numbe was achieved was because the promoted the hell out of this , making sure people knew what they was trying to do. - -Shouldn't have to try and start hyping, the fans should do this game in -- game out period.

McCormack vs good teams (Duke, Dayton, Colorado, Villanova, Stanford, West Virgnia, Baylor). Avg defense rating- 29.5

MPG- 18, PPG- 3.2, FG%- 33%, RB- 2.5, BLK- .28, TO- 2

McCormack vs everyone else. Avg defense rating- 124.5

MPG-15.8 , PPG- 12.8, FG%- 64.8%, RB- 5.2, BLK- .28, TO- .71

I know my opinion means jack but to me this is the biggest current issue for this team overall that can be controlled. Starting Dave and playing him at the 4 isn't working. There is enough time left in the season that this can be adjusted. Playing Dave as Doke's sub or within a game flow where KU is in control seems like the only way forward. There are still games left against ISU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, K-St where Dave can play more and pad his stats as he's done against inferior competition all season. Even then K-St & OSU are still top 50 defenses.

Start Braun and get the next 3 months of games and practice in with the 4 guard look as the primary offense. Our offense against good teams has struggled to hit 50, 60 points. If you take away the Dayton game this team has averaged 63 points against the best 7 teams we've played. That makes the margin for error so small scoring so little. Braun and Moss can score more then 3 ppg in the starting lineup. I hope the coaches figure this thing out.

Marco said:

Texas Hawk 10 said:

HighEliteMajor said:

So if I’m an opposing coach, I would want the ball in Dave’s hands 15 feet from the basket every possession. So there is that. Dave can’t put it on the floor and drive. Dave can’t pass. Dave fumbles the ball around when there is any pressure much of the time. Dave shooting from 15 feet would make any sane opposing coach happy.

The 3/2 is dependent on Silvio somehow becoming the player we expected, OR possibly playing a guard, like Brain, as the “high”? The latter simply spit ballin’.

Silvio sucks at this point, simple as that. I also never said anything about McCormack needing to put the ball on the ground. 15' is about the extent of his range so if opposing coaches are giving him that, I'm telling him to take that shot every time he's left alone there because he's going to hit that shot about 60-65% of the time from there. If opposing defenses never adjust to that, then McCormack ends up with some 20 point games on a good night. If they do adjust, then the lanes open up for the guards to drive and the paint opens up for Doke down low.

As a basketball coach, I was told to not adjust your line up to the other team, especially if you had the superior talent which KU does against just about everyone on their schedule. You stay in your lane and force the other team to adjust to you and KU's current roster isn't suited for a 4 guard offense because of the lack of shooting. It's suited for a traditional offense with 2 traditional bigs and Self needs to fully embrace bully ball to make that run this year.

If Silvio doesn't come back next year he is a fool, but to honest - call me callous - I'm not sure that I want him to come back. Enaruna needs to play more next year (probably should play more now, but - you know Bill - it's not going to happen).

I'm beginning to wonder myself. - -Poor Silvio just still seems lost - helter skelter. Kinda reminds me a little his freshman year. - -To sped up , needs to slow down and just play , don't over think just go with the flow of the game.

I think we need to start Braun and lock the guards in the gym to work on their shots. Right now our offense will go as far as we are shooting from he outside. We will be fine against teams that don’t have the athleticism of Baylor but will struggle otherwise.

Jaybate has been immortalized in here for his commentary on "Shoecos."

I want my tombstone to read "Chip."

I built this team up and I built Self up this year based on the premise that they all carried a monster chip.

I did not see any of that chip in the Baylor game.

They punched us and we folded. They came out and took control. We came out soft. We played soft the entire game.

We can all argue until we are blue in the face about what offense to run, what players deserve most of the PT, etc etc etc... but until these guys commit to leaving their blood on the court, it's a moot matter.

We got ZILCH 50/50 balls in this game. On close rebounds, we lost almost every single one of them. We got punched and we didn't punch back. Period. End of story.

This all weighs down on Devon. He has to step up and take ownership of this team and he has to decide how to run it. His hip pointer took him out for some of this game, but he should be screaming from the bench. And when he went on he should have smacked all his troops' backsides, smacked his hands and DEMAND they step up! Did anyone see that happen? No.

This team should learn something from the Chiefs and Mahomes. That guy stepped up being down 24-0. It could have been 40-0. He wasn't going to lose. That's leadership. That's bringing fight when knocked down. That's CHIP!

X's and O's don't win games. PLAYERS win games. Players who fight their guts out win games.

I've always said Self can't motivate his teams well enough. I'll give you an example of a coach that can motivate his team. Nobody in here will like to read it, but reality is reality. Marshall and WSU knows how to motivate players. It's a DNA thing and it's related to upbringing. Marshall was once a cabana boy. A friggin' cabana boy. And I hear he can be a real bunghole most of the time. His home life is one big competition... even folding laundry has been turned into a game. The guy has a chip on his basic existence. He is a guy who isn't liked in many circles.

Self is a guy who is extremely well-liked. From his players, to other coaches, and yadda yadda yadda. I've met him many times and I prefer him be my next door neighbor than Marshall.

But none of that matters in coaching except what you can get out of your players. It's a personality thing.

I had a real dick coach in 8th grade football. Everyone on the team hated him. But we went undefeated. We ran over everyone. He had us so jacked up every game there was no way we were going to lose and no one came close to beating us that season. 9th grade came along and we basically pulled over all the best talent from the second best team in our league and we were a shoe in for another undefeated season. We ended up second and lost two games that year. We weren't pushed by "lead bottom" this year.

Self has done so much for our program and I have total respect for him and I hope he stays at KU. But I will never consider him a motivator... at all! It's the price we pay, and it will always take the perfect storm for us to bag another NC.

It is what it is. We could do a lot worse.

@kjayhawks Passing is a huge concern too.

@BShark Yep, we need to start Braun tonight and shoot more 3s instead of forcing entry passes to a doubled Doke. We only shot 15 3s Saturday and 8 was Moss who forced most of the second half. I’d take my chances of a 3 going in over 20 plus turnovers. Ochai must be aggressive like he was vs ISU. He can’t be passive, we need his offense.

BShark said:

@kjayhawks Passing is a huge concern too.

Bingo. I was at the game. I kept asking myself why the hell do they not fake the entry pass one time and skip the ball across to the open shooter/driver?

Basic math tells you if 3 guys are crashing on Doke, and one is guarding you, 2 guys are open. This team can't live and die by how opponents guard Doke. It's too easy of a game plan. They need to learn to share the ball better.

Luckily, I think Bill needed an asswhooping like this to come up with a plan B for the offense. Losing to a Scot Drew team that beat you straight up playing M2M defense is embarrassing. I couldn't imagine how hurt his pride is right now.

Kcmatt7 said:

BShark said:

@kjayhawks Passing is a huge concern too.

"I couldn't imagine how hurt his pride is right now."

My guess is that his pride is immediately healed when he takes his check to the bank.

Devon is hurt and Garrett is KU’s only other ball handler. Trouble

@dylans OH, it will be a nice change of pace to see games in the 40's and 50's for a while.....

Kcmatt7 said:

Bingo. I was at the game. I kept asking myself why the hell do they not fake the entry pass one time and skip the ball across to the open shooter/driver?

The only guy on the roster that seems to have a natural basketball feel is Marcus. The rest are just athletes with size for their position. It's becoming an epidemic across the top tier basketball programs.

I don't know if it's a result of the AAU circuit, the 3 pointers and layup only style of today, or something else, but basketball IQ and feel are on the decline badly. It isn't just affecting the top tier player either. You used to always have bench guys in top programs that were not the biggest or fastest but just knew where to be and how to impact the game positively.

@BShark Going back to the days of Nate Archibald with the Kings, and through Valentine up to Hinrich all the way to Mason and Graham, I have loved watching beautiful passing.

Those passers passed in the rhythm of their movements, often seemingly knowing who they were passing to before they started driving or changing direction. Our current players either stop and look for someone to pass to, or drive directly into traffic and then try desperate passes to someone not in a strategically better position.

They just seem awkward in the passing game, at least against good m2m defenders.

mayjay said:

@BShark Going back to the days of Nate Archibald with the Kings, and through Valentine up to Hinrich all the way to Mason and Graham, I have loved watching beautiful passing.

Those passers passed in the rhythm of their movements, often seemingly knowing who they were passing to before they started driving or changing direction. Our current players either stop and look for someone to pass to, or drive directly into traffic and then try desperate passes to someone not in a strategically better position.

They just seem awkward in the passing game, at least against good m2m defenders.

This goes in the PHOF. The passing PG, the man who delivers, sets the stage, and creates, is so rare these days -- yet would be so valuable. Loved the way Aaron Miles focused on creating. Cedric Hunter was a master creator as well. It's a mindset and a priority that makes a team better.

mayjay said:

@BShark Going back to the days of Nate Archibald with the Kings, and through Valentine up to Hinrich all the way to Mason and Graham, I have loved watching beautiful passing.

Those passers passed in the rhythm of their movements, often seemingly knowing who they were passing to before they started driving or changing direction. Our current players either stop and look for someone to pass to, or drive directly into traffic and then try desperate passes to someone not in a strategically better position.

They just seem awkward in the passing game, at least against good m2m defenders.

This has absolutely been my takeaway as well. Not sure how much better it can get this year. One of the worst things is that we try to force the post when there is a driving or cross court pass option. Maybe with the passing ability of this team cross court isn't advised, but the post feed is almost an automatic turnover.

Garrett has a fairly good feel for the game, I think he is more of a PG than Dotson but he still looks to get a lay-up when passing would be better.

Braun has very good potential, I like what I've seen there. He can be a playmaker for us in the future.

Dotson won't be on the team next year. Same for Moss, but he's only a shooter anyway.

Agbaji still has a long way to go.

Heard good things about Harris, but he can't shoot. Not sure how good of passers Bryce and Tyon will be at this level, but next year could be better. Some improvement from Ochai would go a long way.

The crazy thing about post feeds this year is that Doke generally has really good hands. If he goes and gets even marginal passes with two hands, he's going to get em. Once he gets position, he's not likely to lose it. He is also growing in his ability to pass out of those double and triple teams IF and this is a big IF he feels he's getting the ball regularly. He can get frustrated later in the game and force the issue if the guards haven't gotten him a look all game.

Against ISU he had a few really good big to big passes and a couple kick outs as well. If teams are going to swarm Doke like Baylor, we still need to get him the ball and get him 6 assists instead of 6 dunks.

Good passing is as much the result of the player receiving the pass as the passer themselves. I think on top of being hesitant to let the pass go, our guards aren't great at seeing when the man will be open. They notice once he is open but by then the D has time to recover. On top of that, some of the guys are still struggling to get open and find the space. Baylor guards were able to guard up to 3 guys at the same time most of the Baylor game. One guy usually had his man, Doke, and often a passing lane to another player whose man was also shading Doke. I saw several times when two guards were standing on the three point line about 5 feet away from each other. Easy to guard, hard to pass to.

@drgnslayr You will always be the "Chip" guy to me! I hate that you bring up Marshall but that's just because I can't stand him as a person for the reasons you point out. Your post reminds me of another Jaybate classic, the "no amp," "medium amp," and "full amp" theory he had about Self motivating teams for games. If I remember correctly it was based on a quote from Self where he said something about dividing the season into 3 types of games, the ones you play poorly, the games you play amazing, and the middle section which is "who you are." He theorized that Self tried to manipulate scenarios to get the poorly played games when he wanted them and at times when he could still win the game.

If we use this idea I would say Self's biggest coaching error for Baylor was "amping" the team for the road game at Iowa State (evidence in big win, lots of dunks, high energy from players) and hoping that the marque match-up with the top 5 team in the Phog would be enough to get the players to that mid-amp and that would be enough to beat Drew whose teams usually fold in Allen. If you pay attention to the pregame huddle, Self's last words were "go have fun" (reading lips). Not the most intense energy for 2 v. 3 with B12 championship implications.

Several things aligned causing this strategy to fail.
1. ISU is just sooooo bad that even Hilton Magic can't save them. We heard Self post game talking about how that wasn't really Iowa State and not representative about what playing there is really like. He was surprised they and their building didn't put up much of a fight. He wasted a good motivational speech and a few "wrinkles" that gave the team confidence going into the game.
2. Nagging injuries and bad weather helped foster a low energy environment from the team and the building against Baylor.
3. Baylor didn't fold. They were pumped, they were ready, they maintained their intensity the whole game and responded to KU's feeble attempts at a run in the second half.

Self hoped for a game that showed "who we are." Let's hope this game actually falls into that bottom third for this year.

@benshawks08

Excellent post!

Yeah... I don't agree with the idea "just go out there and have fun." Imagine Marshall doing that. Watch him during a game and it is painful watching all his contortions in his face and body... and his ticks. How many times a game does that guy shake his watch wrist? My guess... 300 times a game.

I gave the old football story. Lead Bottom would have never told us to go have fun. He was more likely to lead with a threat on us running perpetual laps the following week if we lollygagged in a game. He kept a list during games and I have to confess to running a bunch of extra laps on following Mondays after Saturday games.

BTW.... I would never trade Self for Marshall. I'm just making the point about who can motivate. I have been watching some WSU games this year and they have changed completely since early November. He is able to take a bunch of 2-star guys and make them competitive. He is able to play the "underdog card" and I can never see him coaching elite players with his style. Nothing in the future will change his past of being a cabana boy.

Marshall is an extreme. The guy who fascinates me is Wright at Nova.

@drgnslayr KU as an underdog is a tough sell. At WSU it is an easy sell. I agree that Nova and Wright are intriguing. At 6500 students Nova is a smaller school but no one would argue Nova (and that other small school we lost to this year but won't name) are underdogs in basketball. I would guess Wright could be selling the fact that they aren't a traditional blue blood. I think more than your "chip" is the preparation associated with Nova. Now I don't watch every Nova game but when they've played KU they seem to have a superior game plan and are better prepared to execute that plan. That definitely builds confidence which translates to better play.

@benshawks08

Man.... you are so right on!

Wright doesn't sell guys coming prepared for a game. That is a gimme with Nova.

Wright sells guys on "Wright ball" as a whole and they have to come to practice with the same commitment as they do a game. That is how Nova develops well and comes to games and executes a plan; because they didn't lollygag in practice anymore than they do a game.

When a team can't even come into a game with enthusiasm, imagine what their practices are like!

This all relates to Self's strategy after we got smoked in some early round NCAA games. He felt like the guys were tight and need to play loose. But just how loose?

I go the other way. I think guys need to come in and have pressure on them. But they need to bring in so much positive energy, actually synergy as a group, that they execute because they are overflowing with self confidence!

"Go out and have fun!" How the heck does that inspire players? It doesn't. Actually invites them to slack off. It's a cop out because we don't know how to build enthusiasm with our guys. Self is just way too mellow! But still a remarkable coach!

@drgnslayr I think it has to be a balance. In education we hear a lot about being a "warm demander" and how that creates an environment that fosters learning and motivates students. A motivator needs some warmth to create a relationship so that the person cares enough to try for that person. With your examples your saying Self brings the warmth while Marshall brings the demanding.

Wright seems to have a good balance of that right now for the athletes he's bringing to campus.

The difficulty is that every person is different. Some people respond to negative consequences and stimuli. Threaten them, tell them they can't do it, insult their pride, call them soft etc. Point out their weakness and they will work their butt off to never show that weakness again. In general these are people who care about reputation, perception, collaboration, and mostly external pressures. People use anger, and fear of shame as motivation.
When I think about KU players who fit this mold I think about Frank Mason. He seemed to be all about proving people wrong. Early Frank wasn't good enough finishing at the rim/ he fixed it. Then he wasn't a good enough 3 pt. shooter/ he fixed it. Is he too small for the league? Got drafted/played some for a few years.

Some people if you do any of that stuff will shut you out or even shut down completely.

Others respond to positive reinforcement and stimuli. Praise them for something they do right and they will do it over and over again and will work tirelessly to earn that praise. Often these are people who are more internally motivated and don't respond to shame well. These people may not directly address their weaknesses but are much better at playing to their strengths. I think about Devonte as an example for KU players. "Go out there and have fun" would have been a great pre-game speech for him. watch him play basketball and you can't help but see the positivity, the joy. Devonte came in as a good passer and a decent shooter. He just continued (and continues in the NBA) to grow in both those areas.

I don't think one kind of player is naturally better than the other nor is a person always one or the other. Our brains are elastic and heavily impacted by our mood and surroundings. Most people are somewhere in the middle and fluctuate in between.