I like Conner a lot and I will continue to follow his progress. Yes, he was a star in HS where he was playing against players that worked at McDonald's but college was big step up and he really did not excel, at least not to the level to think he has NBA potential, and the NBA is an even higher jump. Realistically, he could have a real good college career but the NBA is a long. long ways away. He has a better chance becoming a coach and with KU's coaching tree, he just passed on his best chance for that.
JayHawkFanToo
13427 posts
Most coaches will tell you that they spend the first month of practice teaching new players the basics of team ball and weaning them of all the bad habits acquired in HS as a result of bad coaching or individual-oriented AAU play.
In this respect Euro ball is well ahead of us, they might not have the raw athletic ability but they sure have better fundamentals...maybe because they do not have the raw talent. I think we can see a good example with Oubre and Svi, one a super athletic freak with (apparently) poor game fundamental and the othe,r a not as athletically talented player, but with much better individual and team fundamentals,..how is that working out for KU?
One thing that needs to be considered in the Tournament is match ups and luck. There is no question that some less talented teams are bad match ups against what most reasonable people would say is a more talented team, such as Stanford was for KU last tournament, particularly with Embiid out.
Luck also plays a big part; a hot team might knock a high seed and we see it happen every year. Rick Pitino pretty much said that on ESPN indicating that the current format gives lower seed a chance since it is one game elimination. He also said that if the system would change to a series format, talent would prevail every time. I believe that in a series format, even a best of three, KU perhaps does not win in '88, but wins at least 3-4 more titles in years where one bad game doomed a superior team.
It is very interesting to read all the theories regarding some of the players with as little information as we have.
As you know. most practices are closed to the public and only occasionally NBA scouts will be allowed, but the public at large it is not. Sometimes Williams Fund contributors will be given tours of the facilities (I was lucky to be the guest of one several years back) and as part of that tour, you watch practice for a few minutes, and can get a better idea of the height and heft of the players, that's all.
On the Court:
- We don't know how a player is doing in practice, Coach Self knows.
- We don't know how a player is doing physically, injuries and such. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know how well a player understands the system. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know how well a player is developing his technical skills. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know how a players plays with or complements other other players. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know how well a player get along with other players and the coaching staff. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know how a player follows direction while in the game. Coach Self knows.
Off the Court:
- We don't know if a player has missed a class since we don't have access to the program monitors. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know if the student/athlete is doing homework. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know if the student/athlete doing well or poorly in class.. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know if the student/athlete is missing tutoring sessions.. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know if the student is following curfew rules. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know if the student/athlete is doing his off-court conditioning. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know if the student/athlete is following the dietary programs set up for him. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know if the student/athlete is having personal problems. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know if the student/athlete is having family issues. Coach Self knows.
- We don't know when the student/athlete has a BM...Coach Self probably knows...:)
All the items above are just a small list of what factors in who plays and how much playing time he gets. So, what do we really know?
- We know how many minutes per game a player gets.
- We know how well he performs while on the courts...and opinions vary quite a bit on this subject.
- We see some body language for the player and the coach on the sidelines.
- We hear what Coach Self wants us to hear during press conferences and radio shows.
- We see the occasional social media posts.
That is basically it and with this information we second guess, make wild conjectures and pretend we know more, not only about player management and development but even game strategy than (arguably) the most successful college basketball coach in the last decade. Pretty presumptuous on our part, wouldn't you agree? We all do it and I do it myself, although I always try to give Coach Self the benefit of the doubt since, as shown above, he has a hell of a lot more information that I do.This is just my opinion and I am sure some fellow posters will tell me I am all wrong.
How about this quote
"We love the coaching staff, we love Coach Marshall,” he said. “They’ve created so many great guards, NBA-caliber guards."
So many NBA caliber guards? As far as I know the only WSU guard (or player) player in the NBA is Cleanthony Early; Baker will probably make it and VanVleet is undersized and borderline NBA.
Best of luck to Conner, hopefully he will develop into a above average college player but I still think that he is long shot for the NBA.
Any chance that Zenger can black "Dukie Vitale" out? Probably not a chance since he seem to enjoy inflicting pain to KU fans and Vitale is like nails on a chalkboard.
I agree, most of the shots Wayne took were good looks and nothing like the "high degree of difficulty" shots MSU was taking and making. In any case, most coaches will tell you that the only way for a player to get off a slump is to continue shooting.
At that time KU was on offense so talking about who is the better defensive player is irrelevant. Had they not scored, he could have substituted for a better defensive player after the play if necessary. In any case, KU would have been 3 points and MSU would have been looking to score a 3 pointer so perimeter defense was more important.
When players are hitting everything, the call it being in "the zone;" Greene was the exact opposite in this game and had already committed 2 TOs in 6 minutes of play. I really believe Coach Self realized that and wisely kept Jamari in the game.
As I mentioned before, Sometimes I think that Greene is somewhat bipolar; he is either on or off. Against Rider he was on and had 17 point and no turnovers in 19 minutes; yesterday he had 0 points and 2 TOs in 6 minutes. A no brainer to leave Jamarari in, IMHO. At this point, what Greene brings to the table is outside shooting (when he is on) and nothing more; his ball handling and defense are below average, so if he is not hitting from the outside it makes no sense to play him.
I think you missed my point or more likely, I did not do a good job expressing what I meant. My point was why stop Mason's penetration when he was not passing and he was met at the basket by a seven footer that blocked his shot? The idea of penetration by the PG is to either score if he is open or draw the defense in and kick it to the outside where there will be at least one player open. Mason drove to the basket, drew a crowd and still tried to score...we all know what that turned out.
Now, if he can do the same thing against Texas, that is penetrate, draw the defense in and then pass the ball to the open man, then we will have something; however, if he tries to score over the trees the result will be similar to the UK game...Texas is really, really long and talented.
Maybe Coach Self did not trust Greene handling the ball in that situation. Keep in mind that Greene had 2 TOs in 6 minutes, in comparison, Mason and Selden had 3 a piece but each played 36 minutes; Traylor had no TOs in 15 minutes. I get the impression that Coach Self knew today was not Brannen's day.
Coach self indicated on a couple of occasions that they simplified the system greatly last year, he also indicated that the team did not perform defensively like he would have liked and part of it was due to the changes. As you know, Coach Self's system starts with solid, tough defense and the offense starts with defensive stops, at least that is his preferred approach. I think that part of the problem with defense was the new rules of contact, and the way they were enforced affected teams that emphasize and play tough defense, like KU, a lot more than it did the ones that play mostly offense, since the rules were "tweaked" to favor offenses and higher scoring. Now that he has had a chance to adapt to the changes, we are seeing a much improved defense compared to last year's.
"There is no one in the country that can stop Frank from driving."
UK did a good job by blocking his shots and Texas and even Oklahoma are going to do the same. I saw most of the U Conn-Texas game and Texas has some serious length that can actually play and hit from the outside. I am waiting to see how the front line of Texas does against Kentucky.
@HighEliteMajor and @icthawkfan316
After the game ESPN had a programs called "The Experts" where they had a round table discussion moderated by Jay BIlas with Jim Boeheim, Mike Krzyzewski, Rick Pitino and Roy Williams. Among the different things they discussed was the potential separation of the top conferences from the NCAA; one of the points Pitino made was about the current NCAA Tournament format and he indicated that under the current format any team can upset a higher seed team and win the Tournament but if they would switch to a NBA-like series, talent would win every time, which is something I have mentioned many times.
The analogy can be expanded to the Oubre, Greene, Svi situation. There is no question that fundamentals-wise, Svi is head and shoulders above the other two, a result no doubt of having played in professional leagues in Europe, Greene is the better shooter but athleticism-wise, Oubre is the best of the bunch. Let's keep in mind that unlike the NCAA Tournament, this is not a sprint and it is more like conference play, more of a marathon. Much like a series instead of single elimination games, in the end talent when paired with experience will prevail. Yes, Svi has the edge in fundamentals and Greene has one extra year in the system but in the long run, and once the game "slows down" for him, Oubre might end up being the better player.
Whitey mentioned that when he came to college the game seemed so much faster than what he was accustomed but once he got some experience, the game slowed down and he became a dominant rim protector, perhaps the best we have had since ...well Chamberlain...and yet, when he went to the NBA he experienced the exact same thing all over again, where the game seemed a lot faster than what he was accustomed, but now that he as playing experience, the game has once again slowed down. I believe that in time,. the game will "slow down" for Oubre and we will see some great playing from him. I would not quite dismiss him based on what we have seen in handful of games and would wait longer to gauge his progress and potential.
Even Vitale indicated that the refs did not call a few fouls on MU and they quit calling fouls in the second half.. KU played great defense in the second half without fouling; MU never got into the bonus situation in the second half and when fouled, they had to inbound the ball instead of shooting free throws at the end of the game, a huge advantage for KU.
Ku need to keep TOs in single digits. Some silly mistakes allowed MU to get back into the game.
A couple of point about Mason. I mentioned after the Tennessee game that he as son Rajon Rondo in him insofar as he is able to get in good position for rebounds and sure enough, he had 10 today. The one thing that he needs to learn is that when he is on fast break with an opposing player on him and a trailer teammate, he needs to pass the ball to the trailer for the uncontested layup instead of taking it to the hoop himself. This is basketball 101 but something difficult to wean from a player with a shooter/scorer mentality; he is making progress but he is not quite there yet.
The other thing I mentioned before the beginning of the season is that Coach Self relaxed tough defensive play last season to accommodate the new players and that he would not make that mistake again. It is nice to see the team back to playing Self-ball, i.e. tough defense.
I am starting to wonder if Green has a little Bipolar disorder, he seems to be way up for some games and way down for others and his concentration seems to vary as well. Oubre is still a mystery and I really think there is more to it that we don't know yet.
Does anyone have better spin moves that Perry Ellis? He is becoming more assertive and his game, particularly on offense is solid. and dependable.
Nice to see Coach Self out coach Izzo at the end of the game; Izzo used to have Coach Self's number for a while and I am sure Coach Self is glad to have this win under his belt.
Sorry???
Coach Self has been doing a lighter version of it already; maybe we can come up with name of our own...any ideas?
There were a bunch of stories at the time; this is the fist one I came across...
We don't know everything that transpired at Memphis but he had a reputation of having a bad attitude, even walking out of practice. Maybe a little growing up on his part and a change of scene did him some...or actually a lot of good.
It is not potential alone. I have seen Oubre play in a couple of all-star games and he was excellent; also, if you look at the Kentucky game, granted not the best game to evaluate players, but Oubre was the best KU player at that game. I have no doubts that Oubre can play, he is just having a harder time than other players adapting to Coach Self's system, maybe thinking too much like @Hawk8086 mentioned, but once he becomes more familiar with it, I would not be surprised if he starts later in the season.
Also, as far as not having enough time. I just don't buy it. If UK can find time for 10 McD All-Americans, I am sure Coach self can find time for his less heralded players. There is no reason why the team cannot have 5 players averaging 25+/- minuted and 5 others averaging 15+/- minutes. Maybe We can platoon like UK... :)
I agree on Oubre. Some players have a harder time adapting to college play, but the talented ones eventually get it and prosper. Darrel Artur comes to mind, he started slow, picked up speed, made all-conference rookie team and by the end of his second year he was an all-conference first team outstanding college player and gone to the NBA. I can see Oubre having a similar career.
No question that Tarik had some personality/chemistry issues at Memphis and he came to KU and an environment that was very compatible with his personality.Their loss our gain.
Some how I see it as highly unlikely that Oubre transfers. If he does that he would have to sit one year and then play at least one more. His best shot, time-wise, is come up to sped and improve his stock this year and maybe stay an extra year. The other option would be going to the Development League or Europe. He is got too much potential to delay his entry in the League by at least two years if he transfers. I was not surprised to see Frankamp transfer since his schedule is quite different and he is long, long shot to make it to the NBA, so an extra year in college would not hurt and may actually help him.
Greene is a different situation insofar as he has already invested 2 years at KU. He has NBA level potential on offense but his defense is lagging far behind. If he can improve his defense, and stays 2 more years, I can see him playing in the NBA; no better place to learn defense than KU.
Interesting game of spurts or maybe I should say lapses.
The good things:
Mason is crazy good dribbling the ball and bringing it up; his 3 point shot is coming along; he also has a little Rajon Rondo in him where he know how to position himself for rebounds..
Graham progressing nicely.
Ellis is actively looking for the 3 often going to the corner to take the shot but not yet being noticed by the team that he wants to shoot the 3. Does anyone have better moves than Ellis around the basket? He sure has some great spin moves and he is starting to become more aggressive.
Alexander is playing well and finally getting into the groove. Selden is playing steady and brought up the ball up several times and his assists are a nice bonus.
Svi court awareness and poise is something to behold. He never gets flustered and his passing is crisp, One of these days his shots will start to fall. Is there a younger player in Division I?
Green shooting.
Team 3-point shooting stil above .400, a nice development.
Ball movement. Players are finally doing what Coach Self wanted all along, move the ball and not juts hold it
Poise. The team got punched hard a couple of time by Tennessee runs a and responded every time. Looks like the teams is now coming together.
The bad:
Turnovers.
Greene still cannot move his feet sideways and gets burned and he fails to provide help from the weak side; overall his defense is lagging his offense and it is the one thing that is holding him back.
Turnovers.
Mason still taking ill advised shots but slowly improving in this area; maybe Coach had him watch RussRob tapes.
Turnovers.
Oubre still trying to get a handle of the system and lagging behind the other players with comparable experience; too much raw talent to ride the pine for too long.
Turnovers.
Jamari had a well below average game; maybe he need to abandon the Oubre hair style and go back to the original.
Did I say Turnovers? 16 turnover against Tennessee is way too much; if TOs would have been kept in single digits, Tennessee never gets the runs and this game is a blowout. TOs are momentum killers.
Most telling stats of the game: 2pt. FG: 47.2%, 3pt FG: 47.1%
Coach Self and many other coaches have always indicated that they favor a 7-8 man rotation and if you look at previous KU teams, this seems to the the SOP. Having said that, This year he indicated that due to the abundance of equal talent he might have a larger rotation; he has been trying different things of late so it is conceivable that he might end up with a larger rotation.
Keep in mind that Svi has been playing on a pro-team in the Ukraine and he has been exposed to more advanced systems than the typical HS player sees in this country. I am not surprised that he has picked up Coach Self''s system faster than the other players.
Now, if he can get some consistency...
Happy Thanksgiving to the extended Jayhawk family!!!
I must be sarcasm impaired... :)
I don't think you can draw too many conclusion from these numbers this early in the season. Don't you think that it would heavily depend on the needs and available personnel at KU and the other teams? If Alexander and Oubre went to TCU instead, they would be averaging 30+ minutes and double figure scoring...at Kentucky, not so much. Also, there might be off-court issues that are cutting into playing time; once these issues are resolved and the rotation cut to 7-8 players I can see both player having much higher numbers. Once conference play starts, you will see the numbers leveling. Just my opinion.
Why is that surprising or amazing? I can't think of a time a coach said that player left the program because he was punk, other than in a handful of blatant acts by a player, such as Giles dragging his girlfriend by the hair, and even then, the true reason was not even mentioned even when everybody knew it. There is always a diplomatic release that saves face for both sides and gives the player the option of moving somewhere else. Much like the statement Coach Self made about not recruiting Cauley-Stein.
Every athletic programs has lots of injuries as a result of the physical effort required to play at the higher levels. We are more aware and cognizant of what goes on at KU because this is what we focus on, but if you look at other programs, the injury situation is equal or worse. Hudy herself got injured while training with McLemore(???) so she is very aware of the results of over training athletes.
Agreed. The only true 3-point threat we have is Greene. I know there is a lot of talk about Svi shooting the 3 but his past history shows that so far he has been a 0.300 shooter from the 3, not necessarily bad but not something that I would call a 3 point threat.; hopefully in time he will get better and become a true 3-point ace.
The kitties came within a whisker of upsetting Arizona. Can you imagine the talk from the Little Apple if KSU beats the #2 team after KU got pasted by the #1? I still would have liked to see KSU beat Arizona; it would have been good for the State and good for the Conference...and KU will beat then in due time anyway.
Jim Harrick got ion trouble at Georgia over payments his son, an assistant coach, made to players. You are probably thinking of UNLV's Coach Bill Bayno who was fired and UNLV (where Odom originally was drafted) was placed on probation for four years after it was discovered Odom had inflated ACT test scores, received payments from boosters and received a citation for soliciting prostitution following an undercover operation by the Las Vegas police.
Odom is a super talented player with a bad attitude, a result for his penchant for drugs and prostitutes...oh well, not the first athlete and probably not the last that went that route.
Thanks. I have been wandering what caused the let down, and since I cannot watch the game, I depend on the kindness of fellow Jayhawk fans.
Worst part? I had the option of watching all of MU games; I don't have the option of watching all of KU games. SUCKS!!!
Graham had a very light shoulder sprain and he is already back to practice. Had he had a shoulder separation, it would be a few weeks before he is back to practice. As per KU training staff, there should not be any lingering issues and he was available fro the Rider game but was held back as a precaution.
...and Purdue too!!!
Lamar Odom has created problems everywhere he has played. Perhaps his one year at Rhode Island was the closest to a trouble free season.
I disagree with your statement that as a team KU did not get better. From reading reports of the game looks like KU played the best half of basketball so far in this season. Yes, the second half was not equally good and I am still not sure what changed; I posed that question earlier but I did not get an answer. Maybe Coach Self did not want it to become a blow out and get the players overconfident. BTW, the Vegas line for this game was 20 points so KU easily exceed the project spread.
I also disagree with Rhode Island being an over matched game. They are 3-0 having won their first two games easily and then beating #21 Nebraska, a team that is expected to contend in the Big 10; nothing over matched about that game. Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Remember this game? ↗
Tarik fell into good situation in Houston. With Howard being injured and missing games, he had the opportunity to get lots of minutes that he would not have had otherwise...and he is making the most of it.
I believe Mason's main problem is his mindset. He still plays like the HS volume shooter/scorer that the was and not the game manager/ball distributor the team needs him to be.
I left out Wright because he was not a consensus top 10; he was ranked as high as #5 and as low as #15...maybe borderline top 10???
I saw that; the KU coaching tree continues to grow. :)
Oh no!!! The one oasis of sanity without Kardashians has now been ruined...:(
My perspective is very limited since I cannot watch the games and have to rely on either the radios broadcast or the game live stats, so I am pretty much guessing what happens on the court at game time.
One question I asked but you did not address is the reason for the difference in performance between the two halves. Like I said, not being able to actually watch the game makes it difficult to see what happened.
It seems pretty clear that the newer players are having difficulty learning the system which was developed before the OAD era and depends on players staying longer than one year; the '08 team with experienced players executed the system beautifully and won the Championship. If Coach Self is going to continue pursuing the OADs, then maybe his system need to be modified to account for the shorter time available to learn the system. or else, he needs to go back to recruiting top 20-30 players that will stay at least 3 years and that he can develop into NBA capable players. Of the 13 KU players currently in the NBA that played for Coach Self, only Henry, Wiggins and Embiid were top 10 players and Embiid got there after signing with KU; the other 10 were not top 10 but developed nicely with several going lottery.
It is indeed an interesting dilemma. Do we recruit OAD players and the the publicity (read $$$) they bring, even when the team will not be as good, or do we stop recruiting OADs, get much less publicity but end up with a better product? Do we no longer have the recruiters that can spot raw talent that can be developed? Is a top tier player with little experience better than second tier player with experience? Lots of questions and really no right or wrong answers.
Interesting, I though the late to tutoring comment was a reference to Oubre rather than Alexander; hard to tell...
My comments are not based on watching the game but only looking at the play by play on the computer thanks to #!^!$&! Zenger.
From my perspective it looked like a tale of two halves, a good first half and a second not so good one. I am curious if the second half let down was due to the players losing concentration, Rider playing better, Coach Self testing different lineups or a combination?
I am surprised about Oubre. I believe that his playing time might be related to this comment Coach Self had:
Q. Did you like this starting lineup, kind of mixed and matched?
BILL SELF: Yeah, I did. The whole thing is if everybody was responsible off the court, we'd probably have more of the same starting lineup every time. And I don't mean doing anything bad, but we've got to tighten some things up. I see a lot of slippage on the court and I think there's a correlation to being responsible off it, too. I'd like to see us settle in on a starting five, but I have a hard time starting guys who are late to tutoring. I can't do it, and that's kind of where that is right now. Hopefully we'll tighten some things up because if we let them go now, I know it's going to be something that will haunt us later. We've got to eliminate those things. We've got to become more responsible as a group.
Of course it is hard to tell who he was talking about, I believe @Crimsonorblue22 indicated that she thought he was talking about Alexander, but it could have well been talking about Oubre. FWIW, I thought that Oubre was the best KU player against UK, so obviously I don't agree with you assertion that Oubre started for reason other than merit.
Yes, indeed, he is a wildcat. It explains a lot, doesn't it?
Unlike other analysts he does like KU...