Question: Is Toledo a pretty good team that just had it's first loss of the season.. or did we somehow make them look better than they really are?
I know Self says our defense was the problem, but if we have 18 turnovers, it's going to put more pressure on the defense.
But did we commit the turnovers because we're that sloppy or did they somehow have a hand in most of those?
I guess my feeling is that it's a bit of both.
The Toledo Rockets of the Mid America Conference are 5-0 in games decided by four points or less, including a 71-67 victory over Cleveland State on Dec. 21 in Toledo. The other narrow victories are over Robert Morris (80-77), Detroit (80-78) , Stony Brook (103-99) and Boston College (95-92).
“You’ve just got to stay focused and make sure that you’re always paying attention to what the starters and the people on the blue team are doing,” Lucas said, “so that if you do get in, you know what the gameplan is.”
LAWRENCE — In college basketball terms, Kansas freshman guard Frank Mason fits a pretty familiar archetype: An overlooked recruit. A little undersized. A young point guard armed with enough built-in confidence to start a few games in November.
KU-San Diego State hoops on Jan. 5 set for 3:30 p.m. tip-off ↗
Just want to second the observations that Wiggins feeds the paint fairly well, but they haven't been converted.
@JayHawkFanToo Totally agree! Didn't mean to sound critical of the comparison.
@globaljaybird I left out the Texas Western/UTEP loss of '66 because it was a travesty.
Curious about the '57 loss because I thought it was a 3OT loss (as you mentioned) but the KU media guide has it listed as a 4OT loss.
While Embiid's progress has been impressive, he is not near the level of Withey when it comes to shot blocking. Withey had three attributes that Embiid has yet to master.
@JayHawkFanToo Accurate assessment of Withey's arsenal in his 5th year of collegiate competition.
And your final point is an understatement given we are comparing to Embiid's 3rd year of organized basketball. It's impossible to get apples to apples, but if we looked at Withey's performance his freshmen year in High School, that would a fascinating comparison...
But it probably wouldn't be a fair comparison on so many levels.
@Careful you +1
My memory goes back to the 70s. The '97 loss hurt the most and remains #1 in my book to this day. Vaughn, Pollard, LaFrenz, Haase and Pierce... sigh
Second on the list of most painful exits from the tournament would be 85-86 loss to Duke. Indelibly etched in my memory is Archie Marshall's injury...
After that, it gets murkier.. It's too easy to forget about the '92 loss to UTEP and the '98 loss to Rhode Island in favor of the more recent "B's" or the debacles of Northern Iowa and VCU.
If I were to rank them for shock value, I would say Northern Iowa would be #3.
Bucknell #4, Rhode Island #5.. and I don't care to think much past that. It's a dismal exercise.
If we look at the full history, however, we have to bump everything down and put the epic '57 loss (quadruple OT to UNC --w/ Wilt Chamberlain) at the #1 spot.
I can see Oerter's image preserved forever in the Memorial Stadium museum.... hopefully... someday.
@drgnslayr This would be great... but if not there, then do it at the new Rock Chalk Park track & field facilities that are being built.
One Bill Self quote stood out to me following Kansas' 86-64 victory over Georgetown last week. "We need to play through our bigs," the KU coach said. "That’s the strength of our team." Statistically speaking, Self is correct, but...
The three precocious Wiggins boys, bound by brotherhood and basketball, already have pushed each other a long way from those simpler days at the rec center just down the street.
Rashad Vaughn, a 6-foot-5 senior shooting guard from Findlay Prep High in Henderson, Nev., on Friday sliced his list of prospective colleges to five. KU also is recruiting a shooting guard in JaQuan Lyle, a 6-5 senior from Huntington (W.Va.) Prep, who is ranked No. 22 nationally.
Great stuff!
Extending a warm Christmas and New Years' cheer to the extended Jayhawk family!
Here's to #10 and #6 -- in chronological order ;-)
@parishawk This one is for you:
!W Selden Jr ↗
Gotta love Bill Self's post-game comments ending with a little holiday cheer!
Merry Christmas indeed! This was a great way for the team to go into the break.
About 35% of the season is over and the growth is apparent. You can see the team starting to gel... granted, this performance was in the Fieldhouse, but it looks like we're going to be ready to compete for 40 minutes against the deeply talented Big 12.
And make no mistake, this is one of the best years for the Big 12 in basketball if you are looking at the whole. The top half are well above average teams and there's more parity than normal.
I think 2014 conference battle will be epic.
just an oversight.. I fixed it..
Good to hear Perry's ok. Georgetown was physical. Allen Fieldhouse = +10 points against an opponent's first-time visit.
Let's hope that we don't look back at this game in March and say "that was Black's best game".. rather we say "that was Black's coming out game."
Defense is getting better.
Turnovers-- the sloppy, pull-your-hair-out, yell at the TV kind -- are still an issue.
Embiid grows before our eyes. Nuff Said.
I loved watching the video. It's good to hear the personalities and perspectives of each of the players. They've clearly come from some different places and circumstances, but they all come together in this and have an opportunity to put things into perspective.
Great role models and great message. Kudos to the Morningstar's for sponsoring this!
This thread suggests that we need a poll feature on the site:
Would you trade our 9 Big 12 Conference Championships for one more NC?
Kansas' Allen Fieldhouse was named the loudest college basketball arena in a video feature on NCAA.com ↗ released Tuesday.
The Fieldhouse was followed by Duke's Cameron Indoor Stadium, Syracuse's Carrier Dome, Oklahoma State's Gallagher-Iba Arena and The Pit in New Mexico.
Footnote: It is also the best* *
Bill Self believes his team’s most recent victory over New Mexico represented a step in the right direction defensively.
Kansas held UNM to 33-percent shooting in Saturday’s 80-63 victory at Sprint Center in Kansas City, Mo.
Kansas University basketball coach Bill Self hasn’t given up on Memphis transfer Tarik Black, who has not scored and grabbed just seven rebounds total in limited action the last four games.
“Tarik ... today he was the best player in practice,” Self said, praising the 6-foot-9, 260-pound senior on Monday’s “Hawk Talk” radio show. “I know he’ll have some moments, and I know he’ll catch some breaks (in upcoming games).
KU Sports - Believe it or not, Saturday’s 11 a.m. contest against Georgetown will be the first men’s game in Allen in 29 days.
CJ Online - “It’s been awful. Oh my gosh,” Kansas coach Bill Self said on his weekly radio show Monday.
The 11th-year coach says it’s an issue his team has worked on every day in practice. Self, along with his assistants, go over how to feed the post and the best time to throw it inside.
KU falls to No. 18 in latest AP poll ↗
KU actually is the fourth-highest-rated Big 12 team in the latest AP poll. Oklahoma State is seventh, while Baylor is 12th and Iowa State is 17th.
In the USA Today coaches poll, the Jayhawks fell six spots from 13th to 19th.
A NC or 9 straight conference titles. Both are impressive. Both have contributed to the current elite status that KU enjoys.
But, I think there's a third thing to consider when trying to determine what's done most for KU's prestige.
There can only be one NC each year. Very rare, but one of 67 teams does it each year.
9 straight conference titles is pretty hard to replicate, especially when it's one of the major conferences and especially in a period where teams turnover talent within a year or two. 65 teams (in the major conferences) could do it, but only one has.
And the other is, averaging 30+ wins per season for a decade. Any div. 1 team could do it, but none have. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I don't think it's ever been done. KU had the most dominant decade based on winning percentages.
When a team wins at that rate, the top talent has to pay attention. And so does he media.
Ok.. seems like things are working better for me now! ;-)
I like the fantastic insights that so many on this site bring forward every day. I like Jesse Newell connecting us all to the live blog for games.
I like the passion of my fellow Jayhawk fans!
And I like the fact that this is connecting to the various sites as a sort of "one-stop" for all my KU hoops news.
@approxinfinity deserves all the credit for providing such an amazing nest into which the former KU Sports intelligentsia could land.
I like the fantastic insights that so many on this site bring forward every day. I like Jesse Newell connecting us all to the live blog for games.
I like the passion of my fellow Jayhawk fans!
And I like the fact that this is connecting to the various sites as a sort of "one-stop" for all my KU hoops news.
@approxinfinity deserves all the credit for providing such an amazing nest into which the former KU Sports intelligentsia could land.
** KU coach wants junior Tharpe to assume leadership role**
*CJ Online - * Bill Self is looking for a court leader, and to him, junior point guard Naadir Tharpe is his team’s top candidate.
“For us to have a really good year this year, Naadir’s got to step up. There’s no other way around it,” the KU coach said. “And I believe he will. He’s in a little bit of a funk right now, but he’s going to get out of it.”
KU Sports - It should be interesting to see how perennial basketball powerhouse Kansas University reacts tonight as it tries to shake a slump that has accounted for three losses in four games.
Naadir to start: Self told the Journal-World that junior point guard Naadir Tharpe would return to the starting lineup after coming off the bench the past two games. Freshman Frank Mason will return to his role as a key reserve. Other starters will be sophomore Perry Ellis, plus freshmen Wayne Selden, Andrew Wiggins and Joel Embiid.
In the Florida game, during a time out, the camera hung on the KU scrum for a bit. Toward the end, when Coach was finished, Tharpe started emphatically and demonstratively engaging the team (yelling, but not in a negative way).
Not sure that he is THE leader, but that was a moment.
soapbox
The creation of a team is not an instantaneous manifestation. Teams are forged out of journeys and experiences... the more difficult and epic, the better.
The KU team formation is a work in progress. Coach has to manage these experiences... help the team take the valuable lessons and nurture learning and growth. Likewise, he needs to neutralize the negative parts so they don't create a lasting imprint on the team.
He's got a pretty good track record. I'm still hopeful that the final product (in March) will be sufficiently skilled, resilient, savvy and confident. They certainly are sufficiently talented.
@CRH107 I too have wondered about the coaching staff factor. Glad you brought it up as it is easily overlooked and definitely could alter the trajectory of this team from previous years'. The assistants have an impact on the culture, the development and game preparations among other things. There's some 'youth' in those positions, but it doesn't get talked about much.
It's possible the "ill prepared" feel to the Florida game was connected to this factor more than some others that have been discussed.
Moonwalk - FWIW, I like your analysis..
My two cents:
1 Cent: I shudder to think what this game would have been like if Wiggins had not joined this recruiting class...
1 Cent: While my confidence is shaken, I think Coach Self can find a silver lining: You guys just played a senior-laden team in a tough venue with a raucous crowd, committed 24 turnovers and lost by just six points. Imagine if you had only 18 turnovers!
Let's stop this trend of losing because of a late three-pointer.
Michigan, Villanova, Colorado.. Enough already.
Let's stop creating heroes for our opponents.
CJ Online - As of Monday morning, Kansas coach Bill Self had held only one short practice session with his team following its 75-72 road loss to Colorado.
KU Sports - It has been seven years since Bill Self’s Kansas Jayhawks and Billy Donovan’s Florida Gators thrilled the college basketball world in the finals of the Las Vegas Invitational.
Andy Katz and Seth Greenberg wonder which powerhouse team might be more flawed this season
Jayhawks drop out of top 10 in new AP poll ↗
Kansas University’s men’s basketball team dropped out of the top 10, down to No. 13, in the latest AP Top 25, released Monday.
CJ Online - Immediately following Askia Booker's running, game-winning shot at the buzzer in Colorado's 75-72 victory over No. 6 Kansas on Saturday, the feeling was shock. Bill Self wanted a travel, but the whistle wasn't coming
CJ Online - Bill Self has a dilemma defensively. The man defense he's had so much success with in past years isn't working this year, mostly because the Jayhawks won't stop fouling. Colorado shot 37 free throws Saturday, and the game would have been over a lot sooner had the Buffaloes hit better than 59.5 percent of them.
Justin Harden wishes he could get his hands on dozens of tickets for the Kansas University-Florida Big 12/SEC Challenge basketball showdown at 6 p.m. Tuesday in O’Connell Center in Gainesville, Fla.
As it stands, Harden — KU freshman Joel Embiid’s former coach at The Rock School in Gainesville — has just a couple tickets to distribute for the clash between the Gators (6-2) and Jayhawks (6-2).
KU Sports - Former Kansas University guard Tad Boyle, the fourth-year coach of the Colorado men’s basketball team, says his players still have a bad taste in their mouths from a 90-54 loss to the Jayhawks last year at Allen Fieldhouse. The Buffaloes host the Jayhawks today at 2:15 p.m. in Boulder, Colo.
Join Game-time Chats: KU Buckets | With Jesse Newell on CJ Online
Matt Tait: Bill Self's decision to start Frank Mason at PG not the end of the road for Naadir Tharpe ↗
KU Sports - Kansas University basketball coach Bill Self said Thursday that freshman guard Frank Mason would start for the Jayhawks in Boulder, Colo., this weekend, when they take on CU. So, naturally, as president and founder of the #TharpeFanClub, I, once again, caught some flack for KU junior Naadir Tharpe being sent to the bench.
KU Sports - Self says he has decided to go with freshman Frank Mason at the point-guard position in the 2:15 p.m. game in place of junior Naadir Tharpe, who has started all but one game — the season-opener, in which he served a suspension against Louisiana at Monroe.
Bill Self Press Conference, Thur. Dec 5 ↗ - mp3 Cliff notes ↗
KU Sports - Coughing his way through a seven-minute interview session with the local media Thursday, Wiggins shared a couple of things he has learned about the game since coming to Kansas University to play for Bill Self.
“He wants to make every possession easier on us,” Wiggins said. “Once you get the ball moving to the second, third, fourth side, then it’s easier to score. Trying to score on the first side, that’s where all the help is, that’s when the defense is settled.”
Wiggins makes it sound easy, but he and his young, talented team don’t always make it look as easy.
“It probably was (difficult) at first, but we’re getting the hang of it, and it’s the right way to play,” Wiggins said.
Keegan's column meanders a bit, but ultimately is a message of hope and focuses on the promise of an incredibly talented team that is drinking from the fire hose. Give them time to learn from their early experiences and then 'look out'. I tend to agree that it's easy to overlook how young the team is given how much media exposure and fan anticipation there has been. Seems like we're more familiar with many members of this team than we were of some of our more veteran-laden teams and that tends to create expectations that are exaggerated by the intensity of interest in a compressed period of time.
By the way, the article below from Kevin Haskins of CJOnline had a similar message, although it's presented through a bit more critical lens.
CJ Online - “Until you don’t have to coach energy, then your execution will never be good,” Kansas coach Bill Self said Thursday.
Desire exists. The Jayhawks want to win. Yet some are too shy, some are too meek, some are too reserved, most are too casual — another term used by Self — to spark peak intensity.
This happens when teams depend on first-year players to be primary contributors. However, it does not mean Kansas cannot gain a more fiery personality. So far, the Jayhawks have mostly left it up to Self to rock the brimstone.
Self, who stressed that “Villanova deserved to win,” was asked by a fan on his radio show if he thought about giving significant minutes to one of the bench players known for three-point shooting — Andrew White III, Conner Frankamp or Brannen Greene. White was 0-for-5 from three; Frankamp and Greene each 0-for-1 in the Bahamas. Frank Mason was the only non-starter to hit a three, knocking down two in 11 tries to go with Naadir Tharpe’s four and two apiece from Wayne Selden and Andrew Wiggins.
“We thought about that a lot. No question our four best perimeter players have been Frank, Naadir, Andrew (Wiggins) and Wayne. They’ve been the four best since start of practice for the most part. Others have had good days and things like that,” Self said.
Well done, @HighEliteMajor , well done. Check out the original thread at KUBuckets:* *
!KUbuckets ↗
Follow-up: Self answers rotation question
Andrew Wiggins played one lousy basketball game in the Bahamas. During the three-game Battle 4 Atlantis, he was no better than Kansas University’s third-best freshman, ranking behind Joel Embiid and Frank Mason. I have two words to say about that: So what?
@nuleafjhawk I agree! I'm ready for Tuesday night games right now!
I'm jumping into the chat room just to quench my thirst!
Outstanding!
KU Sports - In the 124 minutes Embiid has played, KU has outscored opponents, 268-182. In the 156 minutes Embiid has watched from the bench, KU has a 293-292 edge.
Embiid’s plus-minus average of 12.3 points per game is extraordinary for someone who doesn’t even play half the game.
With Embiid in the game, opponents average 1.5 points per minute, 1.9 when he sits. Over the course of a 40-minute game, that equates to a difference between 60 points and 76 points.
KU Sports - “I don’t think we made the most of the trip basketball-wise,” Self said of his Jayhawks (6-1), who fell to Villanova in the semifinals, 63-59, after downing Wake Forest in the opener, 87-78.
Mason plays at or closer to full-throttle than anyone on the team.
Because of that, sometimes good things happen (the drive to take the lead late in the game) and sometimes bad things happen (charges and taking some shots that are not the best for the team).
Self is probably going to try to give him positive reinforcement right now for nearly everything he does because he is an example to the others to play hard.
He'll quietly coach Mason and the rest on better shot selection. And hopefully, soon, we'll have an assassin PG (or two)... and an aggressive team surrounding him.
(Lots to catch up on the site.. Hope everyone here had a great Thanksgiving.)
I got back from a thanksgiving trip -- landed in time to see the score two min before halftime was 28-19.
My new media guide and "Rock Chalk" t-shirt, freshly purchased from the fieldhouse store, were in the luggage and needed to be freed -- for good luck.
Got home in time for the final 12 min. I saw the comeback; it was intense, a bit ugly. I think Nova looked a bit more poised down the stretch, which makes sense, since they are deeper with upperclassmen.
Really liked the energy that Embiid plays with. Wiggins' defense almost won the game with a key steal. It turned out to be a jump ball and the possession went to Nova and the rest is history. He won't get the accolades in the stats, but he is out there making a difference in many different ways.
I found myself yelling about ill-advised 'low percentage' jump shots.. and Mason's final three was not necessary. Would have preferred a pass into the paint and see what happens.
But, oh well. Kudos to Nova for hitting a three when they needed it most with Ellis flying by. All in all, this was a steely team to play against early in the season.
Good game for November for a young team to reveal the warts in our game. Both teams will be well positioned in the tourney in March.
... and this is one of three reasons I think this is a special team..
1) Scoring efficiency - better than ever
2) Balanced scoring - threats at every position... and it doesn't change when the bench comes in.
3) Sharpshooters - the number of players who are a threat from 3 is greater than ever. About the only guys I don't want launching beyond the arc are Embiid, Traylor and Black.
Three areas to refine before March:
1) Lock-down defense -- but hey, this is a Self team; they will learn
2) Intensity all the time -- If they could just be as sharp as that 2011-12 team this team would be dynamite.
3) Free throw shooting -- it's always crucial at some point in order to make a run at the title. This year with the new rules, it's a bigger deal. The big guys need to get percentages up.
KU can be deadly in transition ... if it's able to get a stop on the other end first. Though the Jayhawks had just three steals against Towson, they still were able to crank up the running game thanks to one of the team's biggest strengths: defensive rebounding.
“We’ve shot 50 percent every game. We don’t do that. We just make sure other teams can’t score. Since we don’t do that anymore, I guess we’ve got to make sure we score,” Self added sarcastically.
I really hope Greene sticks it out. He's clearly a great shooter and can even drive to the basket. He's made some freshmen mistakes, but also been an asset. He's smart... and yes, maybe fiery... but so were Rex Walters and Hasse.
With White, Greene and Frankamp coming off the bench, Self has three marksmen -- any of which can come in fresh and drill the other team.
This is a huge advantage later in the season. For now, Self needs to keep rotating them to see how they do in different situations. Yes, there may be default order that puts White first, and the other two next. We may find that Frankamp is better late in the quarter because he's a better FT shooter. Maybe Greene matches up better on the perimeter sometimes.
There is little downside that I can see so far to rotating 9-10 -- depending on the situation.
The depth on the team is pretty special. If Self can figure out how to turn that to an advantage, it could be a differentiator.
I'm with you on Wiggins. I'm sure his status as the top player will be debated all season. But I'm pretty sure Jordan wasn't the leading scorer every game his freshmen year at UNC.. and he didn't take over games.
That didn't mean he wouldn't become a HOF player and then some.
My point is that a lot of people will question Wiggins, but a lot of people wouldn't recognize a HOF player if they saw one.
I will be headed to Lawrence for the holiday to spend time with family.. Hope there isn't a blackout!
Does anybody know what TV station has next Thursdays game? Headed to western ks
AXSTV - an NBC affiliated station, I believe.
@Kip_McSmithers Have you (or anyone else here) used it?
Just kind of curious what apps folks here use to stay up to speed because Ive just used the ESPN Sportscenter app..
Did anyone else get this email ad for a new KU athletics app? It promises live audio...
I'm surprised nobody picked up Jesse's excellent scouting report on Townson.
@Wishawk I didn't see that but I can add it to the list at the top. Thanks!
Players are thinking too much and need to loosen up and engage their bodies into service at all times. Instead, we are seeing players standing and watching and then throwing out spurts of movement as a reaction. Basketball is a game of motion... Self may call it "speeding up."
@drgnslayr Nice thought. Self uses lots of euphemisms and it takes insight like yours to decrypt some of them.
[Masonry](
CJ Online - “It’s almost like we’ve played defensive when we’re on defense,” the 11th-year KU coach said. “Basketball’s a game of comfort zones, and we need to operate in ours and get our opponent out of theirs.
Join the Pre-Game Discussion with Jesse Newell thread on KU Buckets
KU Sports - It certainly doesn’t rank in the top five of reasons the Kansas basketball program is the No. 1 choice of so many elite athletes, but the lob play might just be the most subtle factor that never is discussed.
KU Sports - A failing grade in a government class his senior year at Petersburg (Va.) High School cost Frank Mason a spot on Towson University’s basketball team — the one that meets Kansas University in a 7 p.m. tip today in Allen Fieldhouse...
It's such a fine line between stupid and uh... clever.
-- David St. Hubbins and Nigel Tufnel, Spinal Tap
(I know, it's not basketball related.. but it's one of my favorite quotes.)