🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I appreciate you all supporting me through this unsettling time.

A couple wins and team growth and I should snap out of it.

Ya I have zero faith in Bill Self at this point in time.

Sure is crazy that the topic of questioning Bill Self is coming up this season.

Something has pushed some to ponder his coaching.

Is it just KJ and Harris, or are there other concerning factors to you @approxinfinity ?

I think it’s natural to worry about his health after the scare last year. What else?

The fact that we're not 16 - 0 and haven't beaten every opponent by 40 is why I have completely lost faith in Billy Boy. He's not even trying.

@rockchalkjayhawk Self’s recruiting has declined, despite a sizable NIL budget, and not because he doesnt get coveted transfers.

I dont think he knows what he is doing in the portal.

And I think the 4, 5 or 6 year guys he has recruited have holes in their game that he increasingly cannot scheme for.

Timberlake was a shooter who cant shoot. Ditto Storr (though I dont think he is as broken as Timberlake was, he seems to be getting much less run)

Hunter is an abysmal defender, whom he is pairing with a 4 who isnt a rim protector or a good rebounder. Dedric was a bad defender, Hunter is worse.

I wonder if we need a coach who doesnt favor upperclassmen or people who have been in the program in terms of minute distribution simply because of seniority, because your younger talents WILL TRANSFER OUT and TRANSFERS AND RECRUITS WILL NO LONGER COME.

With all the money in the world how are we not recruiting a God roster and making the parts work?

Why are we paying millions of dollars for players who cant or wont play a lick of D?

I am becoming convinced its because good players, or specifically good players with a complete skillset dont want to work for Bill Self and have options.

College Basketball is entirely a business and Kansas basketball is Risky Business.

Like I said… I might be wrong, this too might pass. I’m just not sure any more.

This is not a new thing.

I'm sure there are plenty of examples of this, but two pretty dramatic instances that I can remember were in 2015 and in 2016.

The first was when we were coming off of years of having a dominant big man (Kaun, Jackson, Aldrich, Withey, T-Rob, Embiid), and in 2015 we just didn't. We had a freshman who was showing immense promise and Self just wouldn't give him a chance. He was FIXATED on playing Jamari Traylor and Landen Lucas over Cliff Alexander. Looking back at some of the box scores, it wasn't just the eye test, Cliff was phenomenal. We would kill for that kind of production this season. Self stayed with Lucas and Traylor. Neither of which could score. Neither of which were greater rebounders. But they were in his circle of trust.

Come to think of it, Self did the same thing in 2017 with Cheik Diallo. He hardly ever played more than a few minutes here and there, while Landen Lucas got absolutely bodied by Jordan Bell from Oregon in the Elite 8. Bell had 8 blocks and 13 rebounds over Lucas in that game. It reminded me of Brady Morningstar in the Elite 8 against VCU (hey, another example!). Brady looked like a middle school boy playing amongst men. He didn't belong on the same court.

The other major example I can think was the 2016 season. That was the year where yet again, we didn't have a dominant post presence. But we did have some phenomenal shooters. THAT was our strength. But that went against Self's basketball philosophy. This was the season where Self dropped his now infamous "fool's gold" line about three pointers. It was maddening. Landen Lucas and Jamari Traylor were yet again our primary 5 men. They were the same players as the year before. I remember we lost at Iowa State and the fanbase was starting to get pissed about Self's constant criticism of our three point shots. We kept trying to force it inside to a talentless big man. It was like banging your head against a brick wall. And yet, once Self dropped the criticism. Stopped benching guys for shooting threes...guess what? We won 17 games in a row, falling short to a great Villanova team that went on to win the title (I'm stilled pissed they were the two seed in our bracket that year--they were 33-5 for god's sake...the same record as us!).

My point is, this is nothing new. Self has always been this way. I saw someone say this sort of attitude has probably cost KU a couple more titles. Holding more talented players back because of some BS circle of trust philosophy that plays guys like Brady Morningstar over guys like Elijah Johnson. Landen Lucas over Cheik Diallo. Jamari Traylor over Cliff Alexander. This shortcoming is becoming a flashing red light in this current era. It was one thing when Self was doing this knowing that he had another year or 2 to build some of these guys up. Not only can Self not break a guy down in their first year to build them back up in their second, third, or fourth year for fear that they might transfer, but he sure as hell can't do it over the course of 6-8 months with a transfer rental.

I love Bill Self. There will certainly be a statue of him in front of the Fieldhouse one day. But I'm starting to get very worried that he can't be successful in this current era. I hope I'm wrong. Keep in mind, that Dajuan and KJ are holdovers from seasons where the NCAA investigation greatly impacted recruiting. Maybe next year is the beginning of a new era in KU basketball. But the memories of the 2011, 2015, 2017 seasons loom large. Those were good KU teams whose ceilings were lowered dramatically by Self's stubbornness. With KJ out the next two games, we'll see if this team can get up off the mat, and if Self can adapt to the situation.

I hope this was as therapeutic for you guys reading this as it was for me writing it!

@approxinfinity He's literally said that they don't recruit for fit, they just recruit the most talented player. That is astonishing.

Many interesting and some valid points have been raised. It's so easy to look for mistakes, issues, etc. in coaches and players, especially when we certainly have been spoiled throughout the years. Chemistry is such a huge part of any team; this team right now doesn't seem to have tons of it. Also seem to be similar to the past couple years in that we're not very mentally or physically tough.
Hard to believe that no one has brought up how bad David McCormick was several years ago and how HCBS protected him. Too soft to be a big winner. Seem to recall Remy was not too highly thought of either for a good part of the year.

@MoonwalkMafia i loved it. Well said man!

Self never lost his faith in big Dave and he was right, we were gonna need him. He was tough too, no whining about his foot! To many whiners on here about big dave, sickening.

@nuleafjhawk LMAO you silly , silly boy lol -- you so silly

@approxinfinity -- Was listening to a K/State pod cast this afternoon, see what they were saying about the game and they were talking, you remembe sky walker for them way back when don't you ?- - thought he had a good point he was talking about NIL and how players have become more about money then wanting to represent the name on the front and the back of their Jersey. He was saying these guys don't give a rats ass like they did back in the day - -it's all about the Money now.

They don't have it in them where they want to rebound or play defense, they just want the money. It was like he was saying when him an Beasaley was playing Clent Stewert was also playing and they talked about leadership- - if a team came down and scored three times in a row, timeout-- -he said a lot of times Coach would just walk away from the huddle and Clent would say ok now , now we need three stops in a row, being that leader.

So Question WHO IS KU'S LEADER ? - -Do we have a leader ?- -Against Iowa State , Devon Dotson tweeted out KU does not have a killer dog to close out a game. - -Do we have a closer ? - -That Dog ? - --Frickity- -frack HELL NO we don't-- if w do where is he ? -Who exactly on this team is a leader ?- -Sure the hell not Dickinson- -Not Juan-- so who is it > -- Where is he at ?

Like Walker was saying the players now just don't care , like he said back when him and the crew Beasley was playing they played hard because of their love of the game- Today -- pssst they don't give a rats ass- -Again this NIL bullshit has ruined the game of College sports

@Crimsonorblue22 Got to agree with you here, Dave in his late JR year and then his Sr season was solid -rebounded petty decent -and always good for 9-10 points per, which is all w really needed as long as the others were carrying their share in the game

Well, there is certainly high drama right now, and I enjoy hearing some of the less belabored points of criticism.

Dramatic is good and I am all for a glorious finish to the season. But I think as you seem to be alluding to @MoonwalkMafia, one could argue that some of Bill Self’s greatest successes have hinged on having his hand forced by circumstances out of his control, and then adapting to it.

He has made more out of less with some of our more limited teams, less out of some of our more talented teams, and champions and runners up in 2022 and 2012 out of two teams where the talent he had was used to their max potential in the tourney.

It should not be a surprise to anyone that he sticks to his habits given the amount of success he has had with them.

But I do hope that KJs absence will force him to adapt because he is remarkably adaptable given how stubborn and resistant to change he is.

@SlimShaddy54 BS on players not caring! Juan and KJ love KU, they came here before the NIL.

@Crimsonorblue22 Sure. Dave was an interesting exception, though. He showed some real promise on a bad team in 2021. In 2022 though? He took a step back. His scoring average dipped quite a bit. Let's not rewrite history, he really struggled.

Now, that being said, I don't give a crap about the regular season given what he did in the tournament. And I'll fight anyone who says his number shouldn't be retired because Ochai won the MOP in the Final 4. Dave McCormack won KU the national championship. In almost every way that changes how he's remembered. But over the course of the previous 30 games he really struggled.

Bringing up Remy, though...we should hang his picture at the top of this message board on this topic. Do we all have amnesia? Bill Self hated Remy Martin. He refused to play him. That was the case in the exhibition games. Bill Self was forced to play Remy Martin and it resulted in a championship. That wasn't Bill Self knowing which buttons to press, he had no choice. The guy he was playing 30 mpg at point guard couldn't score and we needed a spark. Remy carried us through that win over Providence, and there's a case to be made that Remy was actually the MVP of the national championship.

I don't know that I'm really trying to make a strong argument for anything. I'm consigned to our fate at this point, but I guess you're right @approxinfinity that's probably more or less what I'm getting at. I've watched KU long enough at this point to recognize the trends. And this is a fun therapeutic thing to do on Friday night while I watch the Sopranos lol.

@MoonwalkMafia I don’t know who the hell this guy is but he articulates everything I’ve been saying but way better

It wasn’t just Brady it was Tyrel as well

Why Bill does this I will never know but it’s crazy to think but he would have won more had he played the best offensive players, adjusted his scheme and not favored some lesser players

@MoonwalkMafia Landen Lucas was a better player than Cheick Diallo. Jamari was better than Cliff.
Bill gave both Cheick and Cliff ample chances. At one point he started Cliff over Jamari for a few games just in hopes it would jumpstart Cliff and help him reach his potential. It didn't. Sometimes players just don't perform and need to take a back seat to others with less talent but who are just better players.

None of this is to say Bill is perfect or that he has never made a wrong decision in whom to play. But neither Cliff nor Cheick was benched for a lesser player just because of "trust" or anything like that.

@kuballin10 I'm an old head. One of the originals from when there was an initial departure from KUSports.com to this site.

There are a lot of KU players over the years that fall into the category we've been talking about (Traylor, Lucas, Morningstar, even Marcus Garrett at times)...but I liked Tyrel Reed. He was a Kansas guy that was a 41 percent 3 point shooter. What I wouldn't give for anyone on our team to shoot that well.

@kuballin10 We went something like 35-3 with Brady and Tyrel starting as seniors. I don't think there is any reason to doubt Bill's decision to start them. If we really want to look at situations where Self played the wrong guys, I think not playing Naadir Tharpe enough in 2013 (I know that sounds weird, but Tharpe was the only true PG that year and we needed that) and not playing Andrew White III enough when he was here were mistakes.

@Jhawk69 Those guys were never given the same opportunity of Traylor or KJ or Juan

Had they I think it’s obvious those guys would have helped the team more than the lower level guys playing above them because “Self trusted them”

@Jhawk69 Yeah “Frank wasn’t ready” yet we got bounced in the round of 32 and Self was playing frankamp more minutes in desperation

Another point of complete roster mis-usage that from October to March Self still couldn’t figure out the best pg on the roster (Mason)

@Jhawk69 Then why don't their stats reflect it? Cliff averaged almost as twice as much scoring of either and outrebounded both of them. Even looking at totals he was clearly the better option than either of them only playing about 2/3 of the minutes played compared to Traylor and pretty much the same as Lucas. And as far as the games started...one was against Temple when we got blown out, and the other 5 were his last 5 games at KU, which suggests that Self probably realized who gave us the best chance.

I'm not gonna sit here and act like Cliff didn't have his problems. He clearly did. That's why he didn't even finish out the season. But at the time it was clear he was the better option. I'll give you Diallo, he probably didn't show enough. But he also averaged 7.5 mpg. At the time it was frustrating because we all knew what Lucas' ceiling was. Diallo's was much higher.

I watched every minute of KU bball during those years and, I'm sorry, Landen Lucas wasn't very good. He was serviceable. He was a nice kid. He was in some of my classes at KU. But he wasn't the caliber of player we see very often here. I don't think he would've started for any other team in the Big 12 at the time.

I agree with you about both takes on Tharpe, White, and Reed. I honestly liked Tharpe. I thought he was better than most KU fans remember. White was a good player too. He looked good when he was on the floor too. He would've been a great guy to have for 4 years. And I'll never say a bad word about Reed. When @kuballin10 kept saying Tyrel I thought there must've been another Tyrel that I forgot about lol.

@MoonwalkMafia Cliff averaged 2 more points and 1 more rebound than Jamari with approximately the same amount of minutes. Cliff was also a HUGE liability on defense. Jamari wasn't a great rim protector but was still miles better than Cliff.

As for Cheick vs Landen, Landen scored more ppg although Cheick had more points per minute. That is where Cheick's advantages stop. Landen was clearly a better rebounder, a better post defender, had a better shooting percentage, fouled less, and turned the ball over less.

I am not saying Landen was great. I would have loved for Cheick to play great and take the starting spot, making Landen a solid backup. But Cheick was not good enough. He had tons of potential, but was a project. He should have stuck around a few years honestly.

If I recall correctly, for the first half of the 2016 season, we were playing musical chairs at the 5-spot. Sometimes it was Cheick, sometimes Bragg, sometimes Lucas, sometimes Mickelson. We struggled at times because of it. Then, when we settled on Landen, we started playing much better. He wasn't great, but he was good enough, unlike the other options.

That's my take anyways. Interested in hearing all of your thoughts.

@MoonwalkMafia Reed hit a big shot against missery that we are all forever grateful for and was a great moment for the local kid

However, he and Brady’s shooting were the reason we lost against vcu. That game haunts me

2/21 from deep….we were the best team that year

Same with 2016 nova we were the best team that year as well but didn’t deliver in the tourney.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/310862305 ↗

@SlimShaddy54 Good point. A true leader will not only take control of things but will not be afraid to get in a teammate's face (literally &/or figuratively). I definitely do not see that attribute. Easy to talk a good game and leadership but extremely difficult to actually do it.

@Jhawk69 Wasn't there something about some of the other players telling HCBS they wanted Landen?

@kuballin10 It is technically possible that Cliff, or Cheick or Josh Selby could have helped us but it is by no means "obvious". There is no evidence that they would have and it is pure speculation to say that they would have. In fact, I think they would have made our seasons worse had they played more (and there is evidence to support this).

As for our loss in the round of 32 to Stanford, I actually agree Frank probably should have played more that season. (though this is debatable, freshman Frank was not the same beast as senior Frank) But in that game he actually played more minutes than Frankamp and it is pretty clear we lost because Embiid was injured and Wiggins disappeared. I don't think minutes distribution has much to do with it.

@COHawk Yes!

https://www.cjonline.com/story/sports/college/2017/03/17/no-regrets-all-landen-lucas-chasing-title-and-down-ku-basketball-run-ends/16551496007/ ↗

@Crimsonorblue22 - the MAJORITY of the players today are all about the money. You names TWO players at KU- I can name THREE without evening having to try and think about it. Do you really think for one second that players like the # 1 recruit this coming Season AJ/ Ba would seriously commit to BYU without BYU throwing limitless NIL at him he would land there ? - - Coleman Hawkins would be at K/State ? - -and even Dickinson here ? - -pssst come on surely your not going to say that -- The amount of players in it for the NIL and NIL only far out weighs anything such as you quote BS they don't give a rats ass and is ruining the College game. I would be willing to bet any amount for every ONE player you name for the " love of the school "-- there would be people who could tell you there is THREE that's playing for the NIL & NIL only. I wasn't pointing out this pin pointing out KU although we have our 7'2 sloth Dickinson raking in the NIL, sure I'm sure every school might have that one player that LOVES the school, but then you have the others at that same school that is there only for the money.

Your in the vast minority if you truly think this isn't the case by far. It's not me making this up many , many others will tell you the same, College Basketball of the earlier 2'000 is GONE those days/players never exist any longer, it's turned into one huge meat market and the game you use to see is history

@MoonwalkMafia Ronnie Kellogg could challenge Tyrel. -- seen many Saturdays where Ronnie and Pony could light it up

For starters, we probably don't have as much money as people think relative to other programs.

Second, I thought some people were leaving, but here they are.

I'm intrigued to see what happens going forward this year and how things change without KJ. Then next year we are looking at a completely different core.

Obviously I don't think this year is a title caliber team. That's disappointing sure.

Bill is a really good recruiter, it's going to be a fafo moment once he actually does retire.

I also like how all this is being said when KU has a ranked team, #7 on KP. I can only imagine the discourse when the next coach has us unranked/on the tournament bubble. Oh boy.

Cliff Alexander played more minutes than Landen Lucas, for reference. 492 to 485. This was despite missing some time. He played 17.6 mpg when available.

@MoonwalkMafia said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@approxinfinity He's literally said that they don't recruit for fit, they just recruit the most talented player. That is astonishing.

I believe he has said this several times over the years. I do think that needs to change.

@MoonwalkMafia said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Bringing up Remy, though...we should hang his picture at the top of this message board on this topic. Do we all have amnesia? Bill Self hated Remy Martin. He refused to play him. That was the case in the exhibition games. Bill Self was forced to play Remy Martin and it resulted in a championship. That wasn't Bill Self knowing which buttons to press, he had no choice. The guy he was playing 30 mpg at point guard couldn't score and we needed a spark. Remy carried us through that win over Providence, and there's a case to be made that Remy was actually the MVP of the national championship.

Remy played 26.5 mpg in the non-con, then he got banged up in the last non-con game against Nevada. Bill was playing him plenty. While he continued to play for a bit after the knee thing, he wasn't the same player after that until he healed up some more.

I wonder seriously how much longer Coach will be here?- - I men look natives getting restless, , Questioning his Coaching ability/decisions. This whole NIL fiasco how it's changing the game - -we have seen some of the Foundational/Seasoned Coach's walking away because of things such as this NIL and rule changes /portal and such.

I just wonder , Coach Self how long ? --We know it's coming , sooner then what some may believe , sooner then some want , not soon enough for some. He has mentioned he is on the back nine, not all the way yet, but on the back nine.

I had thought he qaa probably good for five years yet. Now ?--- not so much , I think Bill is another HOF Coach that really is tired of the BS. Having to deal with being on the road so much/recruiting - -- the NIL BS - -The Portal - - being on the road so much recruiting & evaluating takes a toll, can really drain a guy after so many years. - -Bill's health is always going to be something to keep an eye on too.

With these Coach's walking away big reason with the way College ball is changing - -Jay Wright - -Jim Boheim-- - - Coach K- -and a few others, they just don't want to put up with it anymore. --Coach has said he wants to be able to have time to spend his life with the Wife/ Cindy ? Travel - -and enjoy his Grand kids-- - I just beginning to think Coach is gone more likely then not in two years- - give two more then done, thta's what I'm thinking now.

We think we have it bad here with the way the Season is going -- You ought to see what's going on with Arkansas, they sound about like our fan base does = and there too this fricken NIL is causing major issues,- -People saying that certain players are just not good fit -- players not playing to their capabilities -most of these problems are revolving around NIL.- - Some saying Coach Cal is past his prime, the new era of College Basketball has passed him up , Cal not being able to adapt

Has the new era of the game passes Coach Self by?- -is Bill past his prime ? - -being stuck some say by his not rotating the right players ?- -Two years , Two that's my call now

Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I've repressed the memory of his name and couldn't care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.

The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what's happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.

But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I'd be stoked but now I'm just thinking he's another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the 'trappings' that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he's an NBA afterthought. Would've gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.

88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven't been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.

@BShark I'll be honest with you. I question whether Remy was actually hurt. That dude was doing tomahawk jams in warmups during the period of time that he was supposedly hurt. That was also the word on the street at the time. I do think that Remy might've said something like 'ya i'm not feeling 100%. Probably best to hold me out until March.' Which would definitely check out with what Self said in the locker room after the national championship, "hey guys, he told us 'just wait till March'."

Regarding the Cliff vs. Lucas split. Yes, I said that. They basically played the same amount of minutes and Cliff had more points, rebounds, blocks, FTAs, FTMs. Lucas did beat Cliff in one stat, if we're gonna nitpick. Turnovers. Cliff was the better player. I also feel vindicated by watching Lucas play 3 more years at KU and seeing how low his ceiling was.

Cliff was absolutely the better player. Unfortunate situation with his mom that stopped him from staying another year. I think he would have been a total stud for us year two.

@BShark Aint' that the truth. He was good as a freshman. Imagine how much he could've grown in year 2 or 3.

@wissox This is something I think about. In general Goff has made good hires but if we make a bad hire after Bill the program could end up like Indiana, UCLA or worse...

@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.

Grady Dick is one thing! Not only was he phenomenal at KU (don't get me wrong, he shrank in big moments, and it was easy for good teams to take him out of the game--imagine if he had another year to develop!) he's been great in the league! He's averaging 16 points. Side note: you said a gosh awful Toronto team. Personally I don't understand anyone leaving KU for the NBA. The whole league is garbage.

But Johnny Furphy is the one I don't understand the most. Johnny Furphy showed promise. But he wasn't that good at KU. He had a stretch of like 8 games where played well. That's it. KU fans were shocked when he fell to the second round. Why? Would you take a chance on him in the NBA? He's now averaging 8 mpg, and 2 ppg. Woof.

I feel like this would be a better convo over a beer instead of a message board. But alas...

@MoonwalkMafia Cliff had moved into the starting line up before the NCAA ended his season.

@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I've repressed the memory of his name and couldn't care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.

The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what's happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.

But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I'd be stoked but now I'm just thinking he's another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the 'trappings' that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he's an NBA afterthought. Would've gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.

88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven't been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.

Having met Jalen Wilson and seeing as he has had no other issues I take offense to his inclusion on the bad actors list. He made a childish mistake, atoned for it, and didn’t have another single issue - if I’m not mistaken. His attitude and demeanor improved drastically after that and he became a model student athlete on and off the court.

@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I've repressed the memory of his name and couldn't care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.

The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what's happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.

But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I'd be stoked but now I'm just thinking he's another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the 'trappings' that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he's an NBA afterthought. Would've gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.

88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven't been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.

Most basketball players don't dream of peaking in college, they dream of playing in the NBA. I'm telling you this from experience with my football career. My dream was the NFL, if I had gotten to play for KU, that would've been cool, but ultimately wasn't my end goal as I would've chosen whatever school was going to provide me the best chance to reach my goal of the NFL.

Unfortunately for me, I destroyed my ankle and missed my senior season and all of my scholarship offers pulled. I did have a couple of low level FBS offers from Sun Belt schools and Air Force before my injury.

Agreed, think Jalen owned it, did great things here and continues to show solid work ethic in the league. But I do believe at the time it happened we were tossing around “here we go again”s on the board.

Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.

@Jhawk69 We can do this all day. Jamari played 222 more minutes than Cliff. That's quite a difference. Cliff obviously played less games, so that makes sense. And yet, Cliff still scored more than Jamari (73 FGM compared to 67) and outrebounded him (148 to 130), and they tied with the team lead for blocks.

This is the age old debate, though. Short vs. long-term gain. Cliff was the better player. It seemed obvious then. It seems overwhelmingly true now. So he was out of position at times? Cool. He had the higher upside in the long-term, but was probably the better strategic move in the short-term. I remember people debating this at the time. It was infuriating.

As far as Cheik, this debate is kinda pointless because Cheik never played very much (only about 7 mpg), he was also held out of the first 10 games or so of the season. But we knew his upside. And I'll just never buy into the Landen Lucas stuff. He wasn't good. He committed to KU after Andrew Tarcewski committed to Arizona, who we had banked the future on. If I remember right, Lucas was like a consolation from the bargain bin when that whole thing fell through.

But who cares about picking over the details from a decade ago. KJ is the perfect representation of this debate. KJ's great at being in position and defending. But he's undersized and easy to score over. Flory isn't a 4 so they're not playing the same position. But he scores more, rebounds better, gets blocks while KJ...does none of those things.

So I pose this question to everyone with about 2 hours till game time. What do we think is gonna happen today? Do we think we see an actual change today and this team finds its stride? Or do we think guys still play with nerves and struggle to fit together. I think a game in the fieldhouse could really lift this team up if things start off well. My guess is we start Dajuan, Shak, Mayo, Griffen, and HD.

@dylans someone correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it the law in Kansas that if you're underrage, and drink one beer, then drive it's a DUI? I was never under the impression that he was hammered and got busted. I could be wrong though.

Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)

Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys

Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty

Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys

Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys

36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!

@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.

Cliff got shut down just when it was starting to click. He was getting ready to be a monster. Damn family messed it up for him.

@MoonwalkMafia

Per game Traylor averaged 21 minutes and Cliff averaved 18. Cliff averaged 2 more ppg and 1 more rpg. He was also a significantly worse defender. At that time, Traylor was the better option and it was very obvious. Cliff had more long term potential but he was not going to turn into a great player overnight. He was going to have to stick around for at least another year to be a starting caliber player, so playing him more would not have helped.

Besides, Bill DID give Cliff the starting job anf more minutes to Cliff in hopes that he would develop, only for him to get suspended.

@dylans said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)

Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys

Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty

Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys

Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys

36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!

An almost impossibly good streak. The next hire is critical, but I'm not sure who the first realistic call should even be. Doesn't seem like a lot of rising stars are out there.

I think something everyone needs to understand is that

1) If player A has more upside and talent than player B, it does not guarantee that player A is automatically a better basketball player in any given moment of time than player B.

2) If player A (who is more talented than player B but not as good a basketball player at the current moment) is given a lot of minutes he is not guaranteed to suddenly become a better player than player B in a short period of time.

A couple examples of this are Frank Mason who played slightly fewer minutes than Naadir Tharpe as a freshman and Perry Ellis, who backed up Kevin Young as a freshman. They stuck around for a long time and eventually developed into players that were miles better than Tharpe and KY. But it took time, there is no evidence to believe this process could have been expedited by playing them a few more minutes per game as freshmen.

@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.

Diallo wasn't cleared by the NCAA to practice with KU until right before Maui that season which put his development too far behind to be made up that season for how inexperienced of a player he was. He also had a shitty handler that was prominently named in the NCAA's investigation against KU.

Cliff's season was ended by the allegations against his mom coming out in late February which means KU didn't have him for the Big 12 or NCAA Tournament. Cliff started the last 6 games he played at KU and was developing into a very good post player after some early struggles and was likely coming back for his sophomore season before his mom ruined his career.

@Jhawk69 I don't care at this point. It was a decade ago, and up until the 2018-19 team, it was easily Self's worst.

But I'm curious, what are your thoughts on what KU should do in KJ's absence? Or where KU has been struggling this year regarding the lack of productivity at the 4?

@BShark said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@dylans said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)

Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys

Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty

Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys

Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys

36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!

An almost impossibly good streak. The next hire is critical, but I'm not sure who the first realistic call should even be. Doesn't seem like a lot of rising stars are out there.

I’m more worried about Andy Reid’s replacement. I’d like him to coach forever, but let’s be real there aren’t many JoPas out there.

The irony… Coach K left hero worshipped and hadn’t won a chip since 2015. Self is 3 year removed, has been ranked in the top 10 since then and a lynch mob is forming. 😂 Allen Fieldhouse may be the singular best home court in all of sports, but maybe the fans in Durham are better at realizing what they have. 🤔

@dylans My thought is Andy will ride it out with Mahomes but he is already 66 so who knows. That is a reset I am NOT looking forward to at all.

@BShark I’m going to have a hard time watching football post Mahomes, but if they both retire at the same time…Yikes! It’ll be devastating.

@MoonwalkMafia In KJs absense we should play Rylan and Keese at the 4. Maybe give Storr another chance too, see if we can get him going.

When KJ comes back he should get some playing time at both the 4 and 5, but we should continue to play small ball a lot.

@Jhawk69 I'm starting to remember why I found this board frustrating in the first place. It's hard to have this debate one well thought out screed at a time.

The examples you chose are fascinating. Naadir Tharpe and Kevin Young were pretty effective players on pretty talented teams during the years where Frank and Perry played behind them, though they both played a lot their freshman years. KJ Adams is not an effective player, nor is he on a team where we can afford for him to play 35 minutes, get 2 rebounds and 4 points.

Frank Mason is one of the greatest players in KU history. And I'd argue that Perry Ellis should probably be in the rafters. You could see how good these guys were their freshman years. Does anyone remember when Perry Ellis went nuclear against a phenomenal Iowa State team in the big 12 tournament as a freshman!?

But let's not get too far away from what this debate is essentially about. Playing KJ Adams over players with more upside who make our offense more dynamic.

Bill Self said about KJ's absence: “He’s played so well the last four games. He’s been without question our best and most consistent performer. I think that’s a blow...” This is delusional.

KJ can't score. Other teams are daring him to shoot because it's essentially a takeaway for them. They can sag off of him and our centers have to fend off 3 guys for a rebound. On the defensive end, he's great at being in position, but he's undersized guarding the 4 or 5 so he's easy to score over. Griffen and Flory offer better alternatives to him.

I don't know what else to say at this point. My whole argument with the Cliff, Cheik, Elijah comparisons were that this isn't new. It's who Self has always been. And if you're still defending this, then I hope you like round of 32 losses.

@MoonwalkMafia

I wasn't really talking about KJ. The point is that I believe Bill Self's choices in the past are not evidence of a stubborn will to play less talented but more experienced players to the detriment of the team. He assesses who gives us the best chance to win and plays that player. He doesn't bat 100 but he is right more than wrong and is right more than any of us on this board.

Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.

@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.

Now that, I would agree with!

@dylans I hesitated to include him for reasons like you said but then others might point him out since he contributed positively here.

I have decided to stop worrying about why we’re not a dominant team… it has been well laid out by many posters here what is wrong the program when seen thru the lens of super high expectations. We are what we are. Let’s just hope that they can jell and play as tough as possible. They are my team win or lose.

@Bosthawk said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

They are my team win or lose.

💯

I will state my dissatisfaction and complain. I will gnash my teeth. I won’t only state my dissatisfaction and only complain. I won’t only gnash my teeth, but also revel in the victories within the game not just on the scoreboard. I will enjoy the wins. I will take the good with the bad. I will enjoy the growth and wins. I will feel bad in the losses and down times. I won’t take the good times for granted. I am a Jayhawk in all times.

..but man the NIL. 😂

@Texas-Hawk-10 thanks for the refresher. All that up in your head? Steel trap, well done.

@dylans well also, if KU had the rosters Duke had over the last decade I dont think we would have people irritated with minutes distribution,
Self could throw darts blindfolded and roll out 5 studs, but I might be mistaken.

Long time no see guys. I think we’ll be ok. Bill is generally flexible. He fell in love with an old love (big man ball) but I’m sure he’ll snap out of it. Just give him a little time, he’s earned it.

People complain about Bill's minutes distrubutions for 2 reasons

1) They do not understand the difference between talent and impact on the game.

2) They do not understand trade-offs.

I talked about talent vs impact above. I will explain tradeoffs here.

There are certain traits that fans want to see in their teams basketball players. If players have such traits, they think that those players are good. If not, they think they are bad. But, these few traits fans judge are not the only traits that impact a game. So a player lacking in a desired trait might be exceptional in other traits. If this player is given minutes instead of someone who has a more desired trait but does not have other traits, it is a trade-off. You trade one skillset for another. Because there are no perfect players, and because every player has different traits and abilities, all playing time
decisions involve trade-offs. A coaches job is not to roll out a perfect team, but to analyze the trade-offs and get the best one possible. This will inevitably involve the sacrifice of certain traits being on the floor.

Many of you will claim that this is obvious, but it is clear that not all of you understand it well enough to incorporate it into your opinions of our players and of how our team is managed.

@COHawk said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Many interesting and some valid points have been raised. It's so easy to look for mistakes, issues, etc. in coaches and players, especially when we certainly have been spoiled throughout the years. Chemistry is such a huge part of any team; this team right now doesn't seem to have tons of it. Also seem to be similar to the past couple years in that we're not very mentally or physically tough.
Hard to believe that no one has brought up how bad David McCormick was several years ago and how HCBS protected him. Too soft to be a big winner. Seem to recall Remy was not too highly thought of either for a good part of the year.

Other than the 2019 pieced together Lawson crew this is easily the weakest mental team of the Self era

@Jhawk69 very valid but Self built this team to have a bench. Dude even said he was thinking about this team while we was getting spanked by Gonzaga. Not sure what planet that at least a fair portion of the blame isn’t on Self and his inability to build a team.

@Jhawk69 all of that is pretty obvious today

This team was preseason #1

@AsadZ That’s normal for Bill. People value his consistency but don’t see the full picture so he gets plenty of hand picked rosters, preseason #1’s and we flame out early

After 30 years of watching it’s his scheme/style of play and definitely roster decisions with how he handles players differently and unfortunately it is elevating middling guys into starter roles that should be there and he holds back the guys with better talent because always in his mind “they aren’t ready”. He doesn’t comprehend letting them play through it and be more equipped in March versus October/November

I’ve always had my issues with Self, but ultimately, his overall body of work speaks for itself. And I’m not a D1 coach and I don’t attend team practices. Still… I’ll always be a backseat Jayhawk driver. What bugs me:

1. Why don’t we come ready to play? We don’t focus on inspiration. This has always been my biggest complaint.

2. We don’t change up strategies for who we play. It’s our way or we lose. I do think we are finally adapting slightly. Why don’t we learn a real press? Why don’t we learn better fast break offense?

3. We don’t develop players enough. Our guys usually maintain about the same level of basketball IQ during their stay. Skill levels don’t drastically change either. Strengthening modest, too.

4. Our guys are soft. Our teams usually are.

I say all of this stuff then 2022 happened and we looked like the best teams in March and we proved it!

@Jhawk69 @Jhawk69 The evidence and history of under achieving in March actually proves what those arguing with you are saying.

KJ’s doesn’t “overcome his offensive liabilities by doing stuff to make up for it” with what? Defensive rebounding - nope

What does he contribute exactly?

@Jhawk69 No, I think people do understand that and it’s the difference in who plays, who has a leash and who has “trust” versus who doesn’t.

Anyone who’s played any sort of high level sports knows when your coach allows you to play through mistakes you have a free mind and play hard.

If you are on the wrong side of your coach and with any mistake or 2 you are back on the bench - you play the exact opposite

What I’d argue is if those guys were given the same confidence and leash their impact would have been better because of their abilities shown in brief minutes (while knowing a mistake = a yank). You see the potential/impact and that’s the coaches entire job is to pull it out of them so the team plays its best versus suppressing it. What’s even more maddening is he’s doing this with Veteran guys from other programs while his 4/5 year program guys constantly eff up and are allowed to play through it. This stuff is seen and causing serious dissension which is yet again more proof of his mishandlings. Cal following the same path right now as well - go figure.

Self always trades off the guys he trusts to be in the right spot even if that can’t make the play over letting the guy like Cliff or whomever screw up games in Oct/Nov/Dec and hopefully get it by Feb/March. His patience is very poor and his shortsightedness is why he doesn’t have more titles. I mean Flory/Kj is current proof yet again.

2022 was a completely anomaly and made up for 2010’s collapse against vcu. That took Remy saving us from a Juan meltdown (rd32, sw 16 and title game) while he was literally surrounded by 3 nba wings and the MOP big man.

Self can’t comprehend this which the proof is he never attempted to recruit over him or kj for that matter.

@Jhawk69 Cliff wasn’t some significantly worse defender

Jamari was good for a chase down lebron block but he was poor in half court and zero threat offensively at the 4 spot (sound familiar)

The excuse of oh he will pick it up in his second year is trash. You have a long armed athletic big and if you can’t teach him to semi defend in 4-6 months you aren’t good at your job. It shouldn’t take that long to teach defense to a stud high school big who had lateral quickness.

Hey speaking of that 4 man not being a threat to score let’s add some more proof….

That year ended in….you guessed it a rd of 32 double digit loss 78-65 to wsu of all teams

Our team had Mason, Graham, Oubre, Selden and Ellis - didn’t get the talent together to score but rather “make guys play worse than us”.

Better to just focus on you playing your best consistently….

When you start to really dig in it gets ugly with all the talent we’ve had.

I heard Tony Bennett of the Midwest and it’s legitimately true as of today. Consistent, won some conference titles, flame out early a lot. Got 1 legit
Title with the 3 year guys returning in 2008.

2022 guys returning and the portal miracle. Other portal years aren’t even coming close which is the frustration

Watch Hunter manage his own game and decide how much energy he chooses to expend on each play. He only has a certain amount of gas in the tank and he decides when he uses it based on a likely outcome of how much impact his presence will lead to a successful end. He knows what is going on all the time and takes into consideration the score and game clock when he decides to act. It may be whether to make one of his suicide dribble drives or hand it off to Juan or Zeke at the top of the key. I think maybe he has inspired Flory to try the suicide dribble drive thing but Flory starts the drive from the defensive foul line instead of his own foul line like his mentor does. You can't deny it cause you have seen it too! Flory is ballsy enough to do it in a game where Bill gets that oh shit look. I can see the guys back in the dorm say good one dude coach about passed out.

The Chiefs won by sacking Houston and about knocking out their QB. I left the game thinking about that and a Taylor - Travis - Caitlin sandwich with chips and a Pepsi. I better go back to bed a snuggle up to my own warm baby.

@kuballin10 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@Jhawk69 Cliff wasn’t some significantly worse defender

Jamari was good for a chase down lebron block but he was poor in half court and zero threat offensively at the 4 spot (sound familiar)

The excuse of oh he will pick it up in his second year is trash. You have a long armed athletic big and if you can’t teach him to semi defend in 4-6 months you aren’t good at your job. It shouldn’t take that long to teach defense to a stud high school big who had lateral quickness.

Hey speaking of that 4 man not being a threat to score let’s add some more proof….

That year ended in….you guessed it a rd of 32 double digit loss 78-65 to wsu of all teams

Our team had Mason, Graham, Oubre, Selden and Ellis - didn’t get the talent together to score but rather “make guys play worse than us”.

Better to just focus on you playing your best consistently….

When you start to really dig in it gets ugly with all the talent we’ve had.

I heard Tony Bennett of the Midwest and it’s legitimately true as of today. Consistent, won some conference titles, flame out early a lot. Got 1 legit
Title with the 3 year guys returning in 2008.

2022 guys returning and the portal miracle. Other portal years aren’t even coming close which is the frustration

Perry wasn’t a threat to score? Wow that’s a take. That team was also ravaged by injuries by the end. Wayne and Perry were hurt. Cliff had his family issues. The guy that Bill refused to play (BIFM) played 34 MPG that year. Cliff was an absolute foul magnet. He never played man defense in high school (he was the middle of the 2-3 back line) so every minute was a learning experience. As such, he messed up A LOT.

There’s so much revisionist history around Remy, Cliff, and Cheick it’s impossible to have a conversation. The underlying facts aren’t debatable yet people shoehorn their narratives anyway. Cheick’s advanced stats in league play weren’t even that good. And one thing around Landen. Doke passed him a handful of games before he got hurt. Can folks do basic research before popping off? Who would you have played at the 5 other than Landen against Oregon? Dwight? We steamrolled the field before running into Nova in 16.

The Tony Bennett comp is laughable. Bill hasn’t gone a season without a tournament win (barring crazy circumstances) in 20 years. Bennett hasn’t won a tournament game in 5 years.

@FarmerJayhawk All correct points and none of it will be read or matter to who needs to comprehend it.

@Zabudda the flory dribbling is funny!

@Crimsonorblue22 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@Zabudda the flory dribbling is funny and I’d like to hear more about the Tay Tray Cait sandwich

I probably should leave that be and in the conference final who knows there may be a different top or bottom bun in play.

I think Storr is understanding our system better which is good because I don't. Griffen did not hoist up one shot. I keep hoping for the trey explosion to come to fruition but not yet. Come on guys you are just remaining anonymous for no reason all I ask is a clean open on balance try. If it's not there then you may want to guard better because opposing teams are getting those looks. Bill can only yank you in turn and put you back in for the next yank.
BTW my grand nephew has a good year with the Jets. 30 carries for 174 yards (5.8) 1 TD. 9 receptions 74 yards 1 TD. 7 solo tackles and 9 returns for 232 yards. Thanks for listening.

@Zabudda ooooohhh! I'm erasing my thought!

@Zabudda Rylan had a beautiful drive and dump pass to Hunter I think for a layup or dunk. Very unselfish!

@kuballin10 Good morning. You made a lot of interesting points and I will try to respond succinctly.

Cliff was a liability on defense. Much worse than Jamari. There is a reason no NBA team wanted to draft him.

There is no reason to bicker about Cliff vs Jamari anyways because Self started Cliff in hopes of helping him click, but then Cliff got suspended and Self had to play Jamari.

Under-achieving in March has much more to do with choking than it does not having a talented enough lineup out there. If you can go 30-4 or whatever in the regular season you are good enough to beat anyone. But you could lose to anyone if you choke.

KJ has both strengths and weaknesses. I am well aware of both. His biggest strength is defense. The KSU game suggests that his defense helps us more than his lack of shooting hurts us.

You are right about Bill Self having longer leashes with some players than he does with others. Everyone makes mistakes so you can't yank everyone after one. Players that Bill assesses as good are indeed allowed to play through mistakes more than players Bill believes are not as good. Bill gives all his scholarship players chances to earn his trust. He then assigns levels of trust according to how well he thinks they play.

This often results in younger players, who have not had the same chance to earn Bill's trust, having shorter leashes than older players, even in cases where the younger player has more talent and potential than the older player (recall: more talent and potential does not guarantee superior basketball abilities in the present moment or the near future). But Bill does allow young but talented players to have a chance to earn his trust. If they come in, play hard, and do a few good things alongside a mistake, they probably won't get yanked. But if they do nothing positive and then make a mistake, they will get yanked.

Should Bill give players who are not as good a leash that is equally as long as better players? I would argue no. The system of reward when things go well and punishment when things don't has been a backbone of human development, and is the basis for rearing children and economic growth. But, reasonable minds can disagree. A case could be made that allowing certain players to play through several mistakes would help mentally.

Also, arguing that our 2022 title wasn't legit comes across as a desperate attempt to discredit our program. To be more convincing, you have to acknowledge our success and argue that our short-comings are still enough to cancel it out.

Like I said, very succinct response lol. Rock Chalk.

@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Cliff was a liability on defense. Much worse than Jamari. There is a reason no NBA team wanted to draft him.

Man...you can keep saying this, it doesn't make it true. They fouled at about the same rater per minute, but Cliff was a much better defensive rebounder and Jamari turned the ball over twice as much as Cliff.

It's hard to find defensive rating or defensive efficiency rating statistics from a pretty forgettable season 10 years ago, but I did come across an article from the Daily Kansan that sums up the situation pretty well. This was from a game at Stillwater in mid-February. Here are some excerpts:

Heading to the half against the Cowboys, the Kansas Jayhawks held a 41-30 lead, and it looked as if the team was well on its way to winning a sixth-consecutive game. Frank Mason, Brannen Greene and Cliff Alexander had flat-out dominated the first half, with a combined 27 points on 10-of-11 shooting from the field. Alexander in particular was having a strong game, as he posted eight points and four rebounds in 12 first half minutes.

However, Bill Self opted to put his first half starters back on the court to begin the second half. With that group on the floor, the Jayhawks allowed the Cowboys to go on a 8-1 run, before Self decided to reinsert Alexander and Greene.

Things settled down a bit...but for whatever reason, Self decided it was time to take Alexander out, despite the fact that the freshman big man hadn’t really done anything wrong in the two minutes on the court... Nonetheless, Self made the change, putting Landen Lucas into the game for Alexander. Lucas didn’t do much for the team overall, racking up just one offensive rebound in his seven minutes of playing time in the second half. Lucas did not record any other statistics during that stretch, but Self continued to stick with him.**

When Alexander returned to the game about seven minutes later, he appeared to overcompensate for what he likely felt was his one mistake earlier, hedging too high on a pick and roll, as Oklahoma State capitalized for a two-point basket. Again, one mistake was enough for Self, who took Alexander out of the game after just two minutes. Without Alexander being allowed to settle down and get into a rhythm, he never had a chance to get going like he did in the first half. The Jayhawks faltered down the stretch, and that was that; Oklahoma State won by five.

Jamari Traylor, who played 27 minutes in the game (to Alexander’s 16), had another shaky outing, committing six turnovers, which added to a streak that has sort of gone under the radar. In six of his last seven games, Traylor has record more points than missed field goals and turnovers just one time, while Alexander, on the other hand, has done exactly the opposite. In the freshman’s last seven games, he’s had more points than misses and turnovers six times, and in the one game he didn’t, he recorded zero turnovers.

Going back to Saturday’s loss against Oklahoma State, Self called his team’s effort on the glass “soft,” which was somewhat comical, given the fact that Self handcuffed one of his best rebounders to the bench for most of the night. When Alexander played 12 minutes in the first half, the Jayhawks outrebounded the Cowboys 20-9, which included a 7-3 advantage on the offensive glass. Kansas outscored Oklahoma State by 11 in that period. However, in the second half, Alexander played just four minutes, and the Cowboys dominated the boards, outrebounding the Jayhawks 26-15 (9-6 on the offensive glass). The Cowboys outscored the Jayhawks by 16 points over that period, and Traylor really didn’t help the cause at all, recording just one rebound and three turnovers in ten minutes.**

It's the same story 10 years later. It's incredible that Self allowed Jamari to make mistake after mistake only to pull Cliff at the smallest one. It's the type of thing that leads to a player's confidence just cratering. It happened with Cliff, it's happened to innumerable young KU players--it's happening again this year! It's getting to the point where I wouldn't blame a young player for choosing not to play at KU, even if it makes the most sense.

Even if we were to accept the premise that Jamari was better on defense, which I don't, it was marginal at best. What little you would gain from him on defense do not offset his deficiencies elsewhere, which were numerous.

As this issue is not new, so too is this debate within the fanbase about Self as a coach not new. I heard someone say recently, if you're still trying to justify these head-scratching decisions that Bill Self makes after all these years, you're not a KU fan. You're a Bill Self fan.

@MoonwalkMafia That was the one good game Cliff played in all of conference play. That is an example of cherry picking.

Jamari could stay in position better than Cliff. He could switch onto guards (and Cliff could not). Again, NONE OF THIS IS TO SAY THAT JAMARI WAS A GREAT PLAYER.

But, let's assume that you are right and that Cliff was better than Jamari. What would you have had Self do differently? Bribe the NCAA so that Cliff wouldn't get suspended?

@MoonwalkMafia I became a KU fan the season Bill Self became coach. Being a Self fan and being a KU fan have been synonymous to me this whole time.

I am still a Self fan and a KU fan, but the two are no longer synonymous.

Thanks for the article. Good find.

@Crimsonorblue22 One of the finest plays in the game.

@MoonwalkMafia

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/kansas/men/2015.html ↗

Go look at the advanced numbers. Jamari was the better overall defensive player over Cliff, and Cliff was the better overall option on offense. Jamari had the better defensive +/- and win shares while Cliff was better in each category on offense.

The debate over Morningstar and Elijah is also a ridiculous debate because the advanced numbers show Brady was the superior player by a wide margin that season. The debate that season really be between Elijah and Josh Selby because he's the guy that played way more minutes than he should have been.

@Jhawk69 This is another instance of "just because you say it doesn't make it true."

Baylor: 12 points, 5 rebounds, 2 blocks.
Oklahoma: 13 points, 13 rebounds, 1 block
@Texas: 15 points, 9 rebounds, 1 block
@Texas Tech: 10 points, 5 rebounds, 4 blocks

This is to say nothing of the game in the article I referenced when Cliff was basically held out of the second half, or other games where similar things happened. There are more examples.

@Texas-Hawk-10 This can be kinda 'fun with numbers' so to speak, but I'll bite.

Am I missing something? Jamari's defensive rating was 96.9, Cliff's was 95.0. I see what you're saying with defensive +/-. Jamari is 4.6 vs. Cliff at 3.3. Which one's right? I'd say defensive rating is more important since it focuses specifically on points allowed when the player is on the court versus +/- which looks at the score differential when a player is playing, which can change for a variety of reasons. Either way, it's a pretty marginal difference.

Cliff's offensive rating was 118.2, while Jamari's was 94.7. Now that's a gap. Also win shares. Cliff's was 2.3, Jamari's was 1.5. When just considering defense, itJamari 1.3 to Cliff 1.0. Again, this is marginal and whatever deficiencies Cliff had he made up for on the offensive end, Jamari couldn't. When breaking WS out over the course of 40 minutes, Cliff's was the highest on the team. Jamari was 10th.

I don't really care about the Brady Morningstar debate. He was bad. Elijah was young, and Selby never really got going after the game against USC (shrug). All i know is that against VCU, Brady looked like me out there.

Once again I put to you the question,

But, let’s assume that you are right and that Cliff was better than Jamari. What would you have had Self do differently? Bribe the NCAA so that Cliff wouldn’t get suspended?

@MoonwalkMafia

@drgnslayr The thing that has me screaming or maturely quietly scowling at the TV is my perception that we repeatedly have to dig ourselves out of deficits after the first 5-10 minutes of games. Brick a few shots and we are down by double digits and have one of our 25-30 point halves. Then the warning from the announcers to the viewing audience "you know KU at some point will make a run." Shorten the game to 30 minutes and be down 28 - 42 at the half. And we make a run.

The take that Brady Morningstar, who shot 57% from the field, 41% from three, averaged over three assists, was a great defender, and started on a team that went 35-3, was a bad player certainly is interesting.

Here is a counter-argument: Brady Morningstar was a good role player who choked in the tournament.

@Jhawk69 I don't disagree with you. I told you at the beginning, I think Self saw the writing on the wall. Which is why he started Cliff his last 5 or 6 games. Whatever it was. But I just can't abide this idea that Jamari was the better option. Really, I was just trying to highlight the stubbornness that has held KU back at times.

I noticed nobody took issue with me bringing up how ridiculous Self's "fools gold" comments. Do people remember that? It was crazy!

@Jhawk69 Boom. Well said. I will completely wear that one.

@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

The take that Brady Morningstar, who shot 57% from the field, 41% from three, averaged over three assists, was a great defender, and started on a team that went 35-3, was a bad player certainly is interesting.
Here is a counter-argument: Brady Morningstar was a good role player who choked in the tournament.

Boom. Well said. I will completely wear that one.

Edit: I take this back. He took less than 3 threes a game and had the 5th worst defensive rating on the team. I stand by my original point, though, I will agree that most of the team played bad against VCU.

@MoonwalkMafia Brady was hardly the only KU player with a bad game against VCU. Reed went 1-7 from three. Markeiff Morris had 8 turnovers. KU as a team was 15-28 from the FT line. That loss was a complete team effort, not just Brady.

Elijah to me is the most overhyped player of that era. Elijah was 36% from 3 to Brady's 53% in conference play. Elijah had 30% turnover rate to Brady's 13%. That's the big one. For a position that has the ball in their hands quite a bit, a 30% turnover rate is unacceptable. Elijah had more total turnovers than Brady in conference play despite playing less than half the minutes Brady did. Turnovers were that team's achilles heel and Brady was the one guy who didn't turn the ball over very frequently.

@MoonwalkMafia said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@Jhawk69 I don't disagree with you. I told you at the beginning, I think Self saw the writing on the wall. Which is why he started Cliff his last 5 or 6 games. Whatever it was. But I just can't abide this idea that Jamari was the better option. Really, I was just trying to highlight the stubbornness that has held KU back at times.

I noticed nobody took issue with me bringing up how ridiculous Self's "fools gold" comments. Do people remember that? It was crazy!

Jamari was a junior and Cliff was a true freshman. As the year went along, Cliff started developing as he was adjusting to the physicality of D1 basketball. I don't think anyone is genuinely trying to say that Jamari was the higher ceiling player, but for most of the season, Jamari did have a much higher floor than Cliff. As Cliff developed, his floor got higher and that's why he eventually moved into the starting line up towards the end of the season.

@MoonwalkMafia Fair enough. But in what way was Self stubborn about Jamari and Cliff?

Just watched Udeh and TCU take down Baylor at Baylor. Udeh went for 18. Can’t believe we let him slip away.

I don't think to many really thought he was worth saving, 😥

@drgnslayr Yes and 15 boards.

@drgnslayr said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Just watched Udeh and TCU take down Baylor at Baylor. Udeh went for 18. Can’t believe we let him slip away.

Not even the best big that left KU that season. Zuby averaging 15 and 8 with 2 blocks per game for a 16-3 St. John's team that might be the best team in the Big East this season.

Zuby > Udeh and I've been saying that since their freshmen season here.

Kind of hard to deterime some one's worth in their Freshman Year and not being able to get time on the floor much. was that way for Udeh and Zuby both.- - -Now they getting their minutes and seeing the results

@Texas-Hawk-10 ya as I posted on Zuby earlier would of love to have him this yr. Not that much difference between him and Dickinson - & Zuby averaging 2 blocks per game- - more athletic then Dickinson , quicker, he is doing really well sure could of used him

@SlimShaddy54 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

Kind of hard to deterime some one's worth in their Freshman Year and not being able to get time on the floor much. was that way for Udeh and Zuby both.- - -Now they getting their minutes and seeing the results

I disagree with this. It's not hard to see the potential even in limited minutes. At KU, Udeh was useless on both ends once he was more than 5 feet from the basket. He was a slightly better rebounder than Zuby, but Zuby was always more athletic and the better defensive player.

I remember perfectly clear that there were plenty of people arguing with me that Udeh was the better player and he was the one we should've fought to keep and I never bought it. Now, it's bearing out that Zuby is indeed the better overall player over Udeh.

@Crimsonorblue22 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

I don't think to many really thought he was worth saving, 😥

Bill made his choice. I wish we still had Zuby but it is what it is. Hard to blame either guardian for looking elsewhere once Bill immediately recruited over them with Hunter.

@BShark coach needs a crystal ball or a magic 8 ball.

@MoonwalkMafia Andrew White was from Chester Virginia. He was at the YMCA shooting around with his dad a couple times when I lived there. Frank Mason was from Petersburg Virginia, about 8 minutes south of Chester and my boys attended the basketball camp he ran for several years.

It was pretty interesting watching one of these local players enter Self’s circle of trust, and the other finding himself on the outside looking in.

Andrew White was a good kid and could have helped KU. He seemed to be coming on when he got hurt. Once he got injured he got squeezed out of the rotation and never got a real shake thereafter.

It was confusing to me as I am sure it was to him.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Udeh not worthless now, that's for sure & I'll stick with my theory, you can stick to yours. -- I wouldn't have a problem witheither

@approxinfinity Who are you playing White over during his sophomore season? Are you playing him over Andrew Wiggins? Are you playing him over Perry Ellis? Are you playing him over Wayne Selden? Those are the 3 guys White was competing with for minutes.

White wasn't a bad player, he just wasn't better than any of those players. And really, Wayne Selden is why White left because he wasn't going to jump Selden in the rotation. White made the right decision to transfer out because he was never going to reach the NBA ar KU playing behind Selden.

@SlimShaddy54 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@Texas-Hawk-10 Udeh not worthless now, that's for sure & I'll stick with my theory, you can stick to yours. -- I wouldn't have a problem witheither

Where did I say Udeh was worthless? I said he was useless more than 5' from the basket and there's plenty of evidence of that. Remember the games where Doke was rendered useless because he couldn't do anything outside of the paint? That's Udeh. If Udeh was wearing a KU uniform and played 28 minutes against Houston and didn't attempt a single FG, didn't get to the FT line, amd only had 4 rebounds, this site would've had a meltdown over stat line (and yes, that was his stat line when TCU played Houston a couple of weeks ago).

Udeh, like Doke, is able to be taken out of games because he has minimal skill more than 5' from the basket.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I would have played him over Brannen Greene and Connor Frankamp

@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@Texas-Hawk-10 I would have played him over Brannen Greene and Connor Frankamp

Neither played that many minutes and didn't steal time from White. All 3 played spot minutes and none were part of the rotation. Frankamp didn't play in 8 games and Greene didn't play in 7 games that season and none of those DNP's were injury related for Frankamp or Greene.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Those three players combined to average 20 mpg. Give all those minutes to AW3 and he is part of the rotation.

@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@Texas-Hawk-10 Those three players combined to average 20 mpg. Give all those minutes to AW3 and he is part of the rotation.

None of them played every game, that's the point. Frankamp didn't play 8 games and Greene didn't play in 7 games. White only played half the season. Andrew White wasn't going to magically play 20 minutes per game if he stayed healthy and took all of Frankamp and Greene's minutes. Even if White had stayed healthy, he was never going to get rotation level minutes because there were a combined 15 games that season that Greene and Frankamp never checked into. Again, Andrew White's competition for minutes that season were Andrew Wiggins, Perry Ellis, and Wayne Selden.

You don’t have to tough it out, the first sign of adversity just transfer. Don’t grow and overcome, just look for a better situation in the near term.

A slight bit of perspective. Larry Brown, one of the GOATs, was 0-5 in Ames. Not gonna spend the time to look at Roy Williams in Ames but that place has always been a nightmare for KU even as we had overall better teams than them most years.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Selden, Wiggins, and Ellis were starters. White didn't need to start to be part of the rotation. He could have played off the bench without usurping any of those players. That is a basic and objective fact and I am surprised I have to explain that.

Good conversation here. Enjoyed reading it.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Well I guess it depends where you or how you were brought up. When I was growing up worthless & useless is ummm pretty dam close to the same thing.

Now tonight Udeh which they was playing Baylor by the way , pretty dm good quality opponent, no Saint Marys sisters of the blind-- Like I said Had 16 points- - - -- - 15 rebounds and 3 blocks - wouldn't really call that even useless. You see there ARE things a player can do without scoring lights out. For some reason so many people seem to think that all that matters is scoring and they don't take into account all the other aspects of the game.. Which if you can't be happy with a 15 rebound performance & 3 blocks well then I'm sorry you can't appreciate all faucets of the game, that's on you. I'd take Udeh in a heart beat-- - -I'd take Zuby in a heart beat it's a win, win either way as far as I'm concerned. -Again you should be able to have a Udeh type on the team without him having to go out and put big scoring numbers THAT'S what there are four others on the floor that is or are capable of doing that.

Every player on the team has a role to play--- your wings score, your point guard
s role is to control the offense & runs the offense - -your 3 & 4 have roles to play/ Score, and your five their responsibility is to more then most is to rebound, & rim protect -- and if they score more that's a bonus but not a requirement. Again you have or should have 4 other players on the floor who should be capable of doing that.

It's ok I'll still or would take Udeh-- -and I would take Zuby- either one would be great, I don't have to choose one or the other. - it's a Win , Win- -You take Zuby--- that's great he is a great choice too, I think it was bad to let both of them get away, -- Thing is Udeh did get to the free throw line-- -Udeh did get rebounds, sure it wasn't Houston , BUT still like I said Baylor isn't anyone to laugh at either - - -they are a legit program also and Udeh doing this on Baylors home Court against pretty dam good athletes --Have a good night

@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@Texas-Hawk-10 Selden, Wiggins, and Ellis were starters. White didn't need to start to be part of the rotation. He could have played off the bench without usurping any of those players. That is a basic and objective fact and I am surprised I have to explain that.

Self used an 8 man rotation that season. 4.5 back court players and 3.5 front court players. Tharpe, Wiggins, Selden, Ellis, Embiid, Mason, Black, and Traylor. Ellis is the 0.5 for each level since he was the 4, but mostly played on the perimeter. Mason, Black, and Traylor were the rotation players off the bench that season.

Embiid, Ellis, Black, and Traylor's minutes that year were very close to 80 minutes per game so that was the front court rotation with Landen Lucas getting some spot minutes whenever Embiid was injured.

Mason primarily subbed for Tharpe and Selden with those 3 combining for 76 of the 80 minutes at the two back court spots. Wiggins was at 33 mpg that season basically leaving about 7 minutes per game for the wing spot and 4 more back court minutes for a grand total of 11 extra minutes per game of spot duty. Frankamp got the majority of those extra 4 back court minutes since he was a back court player and not a wing. All three of Greene, Frankamp, and White brought the same skill set to the table, outside shooting. But none of those three were very good at that skill that season. Greene shot 33%, White 32%, and Frankamp 31% from 3 so the one skill each was supposed to bring to the table was something none of them were able to actually do that season.

@SlimShaddy54 Worthless and useless do not have the same meaning so that means somebody failed you in life since you don't know the difference between those two words. Udoka Azubuike was also useless outside of 5' from the basket, but that doesn’t he was a worthless player. It simply means his skill set was non existent more than a couple of step away from the basket, same as Udeh.

Your also using Udeh's career high in points to claim he's better than Zuby when Zuby is averaging 14.5 ppg this season. What category that's relevant for their positions is Udeh better than Zuby in? Also, St. John's has also played Baylor this season and Zuby went for 22 and 10 that game

Zuby is averaging 14.5 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 2.0 bpg, 69% FT shooting on 6.3 attempts per game and is at 62% shooting inside the arc and 57% overall while playing 29.7 mpg.

Udeh is averaging 7.4 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 1.5 bpg, 54% FT shooting on 3.9 attempts per game and is at 61.7% from the field with no outside attempts.

If you're going to keep arguing the guy averaging 7 and 8 for a mid to low tier P5 schools is better than a guy averaging 15 and 8 for a 1st place P5 team, then you truly need to readjust your evaluation abilities because you might be the only person who would take Udeh over Zuby at this point.

@Texas-Hawk-10 White got 6 mpg his soph season here and 30+ at Nebraska and Syracuse his junior and senior season and shot over 40% both places. White set a Syracuse season record with 109 3-pointers.

We talk a lot about Self getting to see what players do at practice. And we say that what we see in games in just the tip of the iceberg, incomplete data. We say this when kids are doing well and we think they deserve more time. It goes both ways. When kids underperform in limited minutes and then go to other P5 schools playing big minutes and shooting 40% from 3, it doesnt look good.

Selden’s shot looked broken. He spent several seasons cleaning it up. He never became a 40% 3 pt shooter. His eFG% his sophomore season was .461 and he averaged 29 minutes a game. Whites was .559 his sophomore season.

There was a role for White, Self just didnt see it.

@approxinfinity Andrew White was never the better overall player between himself and Selden. His role at KU was always going to be coming off the bench playing lesser minutes because of who was ahead of him. Transferring was the best decision for White because he wouldn't have had his cup of coffee in the NBA staying at KU.

None of this means White was a bad player because he wasn't. It just means that the mid level 4 star recruit got recruited over by a pair of 5 star players who were better overall players than White and there wasn't a pathway to starters minutes for him at KU until potentially his senior year.

Let's say White never transfers and sticks at KU for his last two seasons, what's his path to becoming a starter? Let's just acknowledge that White was never going to start over Selden and Ellis, so for what would've been his junior season, his competition for minutes was Kelly Oubre, Greene, and Svi. I could easily see him playing over Greene and Svi, but I don't see him staying in front of Oubre all season. That would probably put White in the 20 mpg range his junior season and going down as Oubre kept developing.

Let's say at that point that White then decides to stay for his senior season at KU which would've been the 2015-16 team. There is an open starting spot that season that ultimately went to Devonte Graham so that would be the battle for White because we know he was never starting over Ellis and Selden. Would White have been able to beat out Graham for that starting spot in 2015-16 if he stayed all 4 years at Kansas?

So again, Andrew White was never a bad player, just someone who was here at a time when Self was at his peak in recruiting and White was stuck behind players who were just better overall than he was so he made the correct decision to go elsewhere to give himself the best chance to reach the NBA which he did.

@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@Texas-Hawk-10 White got 6 mpg his soph season here and 30+ at Nebraska and Syracuse his junior and senior season and shot over 40% both places. White set a Syracuse season record with 109 3-pointers.

We talk a lot about Self getting to see what players do at practice. And we say that what we see in games in just the tip of the iceberg, incomplete data. We say this when kids are doing well and we think they deserve more time. It goes both ways. When kids underperform in limited minutes and then go to other P5 schools playing big minutes and shooting 40% from 3, it doesnt look good.

Selden’s shot looked broken. He spent several seasons cleaning it up. He never became a 40% 3 pt shooter. His eFG% his sophomore season was .461 and he averaged 29 minutes a game. Whites was .559 his sophomore season.

There was a role for White, Self just didnt see it.

Didn’t Brannen Green basically take the role from White?

Also, the staff wanted to keep White if I recall. But he wanted a larger role that we couldn’t give him.

Last but not least, there is a reason why he fit the Syracuse team. He wasn’t nearly as exposed as a defender in that zone.

And like I’m a huge Andrew White fan. I thought he was going to be a star here, and was very sad to see him go.

@Kcmatt7 Greene was one of the best shooters I can recall playing for KU. Too bad he was such a hot head. It was heart warming to see he helped save a someone from a car wreck after getting let go, but I was hoping it was him that he saved.

@Texas-Hawk-10 What the hell is wrong with you dude ?- - do you have a reading comprehension problem ?- -No where ever did I say I would take Udeh OVER Zuby, I said I would take Udeh in a heart beat - -I said I would also take Zuby in a heart beat either way I said was a WIN , WIN. -- I wasn't comparing Udeh's Stats to Zuby's stats holy shit-- I already knew Zuby stats were better thanks. -I'm not trying to nor did I say I would take UDEH OVER Zuby.- -I said I would take Udeh myself ---I personally would of loved to keep them both , but knew that wasn't happening. I stated multiple times that either way Udeh OR Zuby it was a win , win

I think we are done here. You saying someone has failed me in life , that's my mom and dad you talking about when you say that , because they are the one's who always said as much. Don't really appreciate you making this personal and talking shit like that about my Parents. I'd be careful about what you say before you know who your saying it about.- - THANKS

@SlimShaddy54 @Texas-Hawk-10 guys can we take it down a notch please? This has been a fun thread and would hate to have it get locked because people’s head explode.

Thanks.

@approxinfinity You got it cause I'm done on this topic with this individual , not appreciated what was said but sure ain't nothing but a thing Sorry

As a matter of fact , think it's time to take a break from here , I know that will make a lot of people rejoice, have a party it's all good. People don't like what I have to say- -so be it Thanks approx you have a good board - well for the most part-- -ROCK CHALK

@SlimShaddy54 you’re good man. Take a breather.

@Texas-Hawk-10 @Kcmatt7 yeah, i fell asleep thinking about how that Syracuse zone might have benefited White. Selden def had the higher ceiling on the defensive end.

So Self recruits White and Greene and then declares that threes are fools gold. Thats their biggest asset as players. I am not going to pin this all on Self. Things change and we are always trying to win. Players become available and you recruit over other players. It happens. And yes, looking back the talent pipeline at that time was strong.

But it was unfortunate for White nonetheless.

I think the biggest moral of the story imo is “if you arent a good defender don’t play for Bill Self”. It just is not going to end well.

@approxinfinity Greene was also anticipated to be the better player as well over White. White was the 69th ranked player in 2012 in what was a down recruiting cycle for KU. KU's 2013 class was an all timer with Self landing four 5 star recruits including Greene and KU's best player out of that 2013 class wasn't even one of the 5 stars, it was their lowest ranked player, Frank Mason.

That 2013 class featured Wiggins, Selden, Embiid, and Greene as 5 star players, and Frankamp and Mason as 4 star players with Mason barely outside the top 50 in that class.

It also never helped White's case for minutes here that he wasn't a good 3 point shooter at KU. That made it easier to budget him out the door.

That year Traylor, Greene, and Frankamp combined to play 957 minutes. All of these minutes came off the bench. I would argue, that giving a substantial part of these 957 bench minutes to Andrew White III would have made him a part of the rotation. There are others who, bafflingly, disagree with this. This is the last statement that I will make about the feasibility of giving Andrew White rotation minutes 11 years ago.

I would have liked to see AW3 get rotation minutes, as he proved at later stops that he was a hell of a player. Oh well. Sometimes things just don't work out and that is fine.

@Jhawk69 no stone unturned! ;)

@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

That year Traylor, Greene, and Frankamp combined to play 957 minutes. All of these minutes came off the bench. I would argue, that giving a substantial part of these 957 bench minutes to Andrew White III would have made him a part of the rotation. There are others who, bafflingly, disagree with this. This is the last statement that I will make about the feasibility of giving Andrew White rotation minutes 11 years ago.

I would have liked to see AW3 get rotation minutes, as he proved at later stops that he was a hell of a player. Oh well. Sometimes things just don't work out and that is fine.

Jamari Traylor was never part of the discussion until this post you just made. Traylor was the 8th man and 4th big in that rotation. He also had zero affect and White's minutes that season because they didn't play the same position or sub for the same players. Traylor subbed exclusively for the 4 and 5 that season season while White exclusively subbed for one of the perimeter spots.

You've also been ignoring the fact that Frankamp dod not play in 8 games that season because Self chose not to sub him in and that Brannen Greene did not play in 7 games because Self chose not to sub him in. Even if White got all of Frankamp and Greene's minutes, that still leaves about 25% of the games he would not have played in because Self didn't play more than 8 players in those games.

I have agree with @MoonwalkMafia and have alluded to it several times that certain players have such a long leash compared to others. Cliff Alexander should’ve played much more over Jamari after the first semester. Both Udeh and Zuby are better than KJ IMO on that matter.

@dylans man Greene definitely on my top 5 what could have been KU players list. Had the stroke and height to be one of the greatest spot up 3pt shooters of all time but couldn't do anything else even to an average level to stay on the court.

@kjayhawks It was generally trending that way starting around mid January after the first couple of Big 12 games. Cliff also played at the 5 spot quite a bit so there were times they were both on the floor together. Overall though, starting around mid-January, Jamari's minutes were trending downward while Cliff's were trending upwards.

@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

That year Traylor, Greene, and Frankamp combined to play 957 minutes. All of these minutes came off the bench. I would argue, that giving a substantial part of these 957 bench minutes to Andrew White III would have made him a part of the rotation. There are others who, bafflingly, disagree with this. This is the last statement that I will make about the feasibility of giving Andrew White rotation minutes 11 years ago.

I would have liked to see AW3 get rotation minutes, as he proved at later stops that he was a hell of a player. Oh well. Sometimes things just don't work out and that is fine.

I thought AW3 should have gotten run over BG. But hard to really complain when BG made 50% of his 3s lol.

Sometimes I think we all get caught up too much on a player’s stats. There still exists the “eye test” and we all know Self goes off his eyes. Note that we don’t see what he sees. He’s at practices and is constantly informed by assistant coaches.

I expressed some love for Udeh. That wasn’t just based off his recent stats. He was playing with visible enthusiasm and he helped lift his team. It’s something we often sorely lack. Then I fall asleep at games.

Should be an interesting game tonight. We better come ready or we’ll take another L!

@drgnslayr I would love to see the guys and put in a full hard concerted effort of 40 full minutes of solid Basketball tonight.- Haven't really seen that yet. Solid defense - - -low turnovers - -- good rebounding --- & a solid night of shooting the three, Would love to see that , give them a little confidence in themselves.. - -Let's not have them looking past tonight towards Saturday & Houston. If we do liable to get our ass beat.

Would love for them to get a solid win tonight THEN look towards Saturday , we got a chance if we win, we have a chance to make up some ground and have more confidence & Momentum going into Saturday. -We know Saturday will be rockin/juiced, Just take care of business tonight , get that Road win- - --ROCK CHALK

My faith in Self is not at Zero anymore, meaning it is negative.

I would just remind people we won a Natty in 2022 and we’re favorites in 2020.

Fresh blood next season will be welcome, but let’s not act like the guy lost his touch already. You can’t even write off this season yet. A lot of basketball left.

@Kcmatt7 Newbie here. Thanks for lifting up Sunday spirit here. After watching the game again, I really like the combo tower HD & FB - hoping coach can make the best use of them from hereon. This could be the best combo centers in the nation. Imagine HD can use his soft touch plus another option to throw high pass just like what we saw yesterday, or seal for FB to finish strong off of a feed from any guards. We will be unstoppable if Harris can keep making 3s, helping others to score. I don't think Storr is as good as advertised/was in Wisc. Been watching this site for a while and love what y'all have here. Appreciate the info, learning, useful insights for other Hawks fans here.

We have a lot to take away from the Houston game.

First, and foremost, we figured out where our offense needs to come from... mostly these 4 players:

Hunter, Flory, Zeke, and Rylan. If AJ gets it together, he can be added to this list.

Knowing what we know now... it's time to put a lot more focus on getting these players points. Juan already knows this... he only had 12 assists in this game!

I'm coming away from this game with optimism. The loss should help toughen up this bunch, and believe me, besides just gelling as a team, they need toughening! I'm starting to see a path for a nice March run! First time this year I see a path!

Once again... the spotlight is on KJ. When he returns. We will either sink or prosper. If he instantly gets his 30+ minutes back and then craps out on the stat sheet, it will be an early March exit. If he comes back realizing his role will be to bring even more energy to the current mix... we could go far!

@jay4ever thanks for speaking up! Glad to have you with us.

@drgnslayr I think you’re right on all counts.The combo of Hunter and Bidunga blends so well on both ends of the court.

There is a path!

We all know KJ plays great d, boxes out religiously. and helps move the ball around on O… he is an energizer bunny, but we all know he not a real natural scorer and we all know he will get plenty of minutes.. so what does he need to do better? Rebounding?

@Bosthawk as @drgnslayr alluded KJ being a voice of support for Bidunga would help the team, though i dont know if anything like that will happen. KJ isnt going to magically get longer and he is not an inside presence against long teams. He just isn’t and wont be.

That said, as for rebounding, on the offensive side he needs to fight for inside position and not try to run in for the board when there is open space.

He needs to see his 5 fouls as an asset and be ultra aggressive. Dial it up a notch. We have depth now at the 4, use it.

I feel like we're all more or less saying the same thing regarding the rotation when KJ comes back. One of the most frustrating things about the way we lost yesterday is that we got some big answers with Griffen and Bidunga, and honestly Storr too...but in a bad way. If you could guarantee me that KJ will not average more than 15 minutes from here on out, I would take it in a heart beat. If Storr is averaging 17 minutes, give 10 of those to Griffen. Obviously adjust situationally--no problem with riding the hot hand. But we saw where our offensive bread is buttered yesterday. Of course, the question is whether or not Self has seen what the rest of us had.

I honestly think Self got too much blame for how things transpired yesterday. He had a game plan yesterday, and it worked! KU led for 90 percent of the game. We were the better the team. Regarding free throws, it's not like they don't practice them. Your veteran leaders have to make those. They know that. Same thing with inbounding the ball. These are guys who have been playing at this level for 5-6 years. That stuff cannot happen.

HOWEVER, in the press conference after the debacle when Self said we were hurt by KJ not being out there I almost threw my computer. I'm worried that is a sign of what he plans on doing: bring KJ back and pretend his absence has been the problem.

@Bosthawk I like KJ's energy, especially on defense. But I also see potent in him scoring as well especially last several games, end of season. He's sort of disappearing again this season in offense. I kind of comparing him with Jwan Roberts - the guy started with 1 ppg but he's found his signature through drills, drills and drills. I'm pretty sure KJ can provide extra offense with his 7'-8' short jumpers or floaters effectively. I see him as a strong player who can help team score, regardless whether they need points or not. It's a win-win. Scouts will value his offensive skill and of course, we'll be more dangerous comes conference.

I’d prefer KJ off the bench, but just getting Flory consistent minutes should pay dividends.

I went back and looked at Embiids minutes. He ramped up very quickly.

I would argue that Flory may be even more important to this roster than Embiid was to that one (also critical).

Every kid is different, obviously, and every team different. I just wonder why Bill ramped up Flory seemingly much slower than Embiid other than devotion to KJ. I mean, maybe he was caught up in thinking Hunter and Flory couldnt play together. Maybe he underestimated Flory. But thats curious because Embiid was much more under the radar than Flory. Signs still point to KJ bias.

@approxinfinity I'd like to hear from journalists (Newell?) asking coach, too (...maybe he was caught up in thinking Hunter and Flory couldnt play together) - lol... KJ's on sideline has brought some light to the darkness in KUMBB, IMHO. Let's hope coach will find the right formula going forward, we're pretty darned close. Hopefully, FB's 19pts against top dog Cougars gave enough testament to coach that he's grown up, he's ready to bring this team to the next level.

@jay4ever maybe you mean Matt Tait. Jesse Newell is w/the Star.

@approxinfinity

I think there was quotes from Self about the Flory/Hunter combo being not good in pre-season. Obviously, that's evolved into a situation that is good. Not sure they knew Flory could impact the game at the 4 like he is but he's feeding off Hunter's attention and making a huge impact as of late. Houston was a good matchup for Flory as they play athletic guys that don't shoot from the perimeter. Having KJ for teams that have 4 men that can shoot is probably the best way to tackle those kind of matchups for 40 minutes. As long as Flory's minutes stay around 25 we are good.

I think Flory could defend a stretch 4 as well but might get more fatigued and foul prone.

@BeddieKU23 i agree with everything but want closer to 28 for Flory :)

@BeddieKU23 also, KJ guarding a stretch 4 only works well if the opposing 5 isnt a glass eating beast that takes advantage of Hunter’s feinting goat defense.

That might be an appropriate matchup for KJ and Bidunga provided we dont get anemic on offense without Hunter.

Hence, ideally Flory’s minutes might be higher than KJ and Hunter.

@approxinfinity Sounds like coach should consider playing HD, FB, KJ plus Harris & Zeke/Shak. At anytime 2 or all of those 3 must stay throughout the game. Yep, FB should play 75% out of the 3's PT (I doubt though, knowing coach Self). I believe we'll be able to compete in FF comes March.

Feel like with a Jaun/Shak/KJ/FB/HD lineup no one scores on either end

Yeah. I would swap Rylan for Shak if you want to run all three of KJ / FB / HD. But i dont think KJ should play the three.

(Juan or Shak) / Mayo / (Rylan or Storr) / (Flory or KJ) / (HD or Flory) makes sense to me

@MR11 Hot dog!

@approxinfinity Fainting goat defense. That's funny.

@Crimsonorblue22 I think Newell even gets column space in the Wichita paper.

@Zabudda he's a funny guy!

I think KJ eases back in, hopefully for his own sake.

@Crimsonorblue22 along those lines, I think the mindset of KJ running back from the locker room with a jacked up shoulder in Ames and Self rewarding that act, which was in the best interest of no one save the Cyclones, needs to be adjusted.

We dont always need KJ on the court healthy to win, we almost certainly did not need him on the floor injured that game, and sometimes we need healthy KJ on the bench to win.

I am concerned that by “rewarding” him in that circumstance for something detrimental to the team but could be construed as “toughness” or “sacrifice” is sending a lot of wrong messages.

Lets get real, keep KJ healthy and ready for those moments when we do need him.

Since we're kind of wishcasting potential lineups when KJ returns, I would start Juan, Zeke, Griffen, Flory, and HD. Shak is my first guard off the bench, Coit plays in emergencies. KJ only plays situationally. If he's doing his thing, stick with him. If he is who he's always been, 10 mpg.

@MoonwalkMafia yep, exactly. I cant get a read on what is out of date and what isnt in Evan Ms site, but he has Flory and Dajuan as our most effective duo.

@approxinfinity I'm glad you bring this up because it's something I was thinking about this morning.

On this page we were having a debate about Cliff and Jamari in the 2014-15 season. People said Cliff was a defensive liability and that's why Jamari played over him. When you look at the stats that's not true, and the offensive stats tell you that Cliff was a much more effective offensive player, even if Jamari was marginally better on defense.

Looking at this year's team, we're watching this happen all over again (i.e., we need KJ because he's so good on defense). Flory has the best defensive rating on the team (86.0), KJ is middle of the pack (97.7). On offense it's even more stark, though KJ isn't as bad as you'd think. Flory's offensive rating is 135.2, KJ's is 121.1. AJ Storr's is 95.3 for reference (yikes).

There really is no justification to play KJ over Flory other than the explanation you suggested, which I think is right, to reward KJ's toughness. But that's abstract BS. KJ cares a lot, sure. But he's having to play the 3-4 and he's undersized. Watching him guard guys in the post is like watching a little brother try to guard their big brother. It just doesn't work.

@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@Crimsonorblue22 along those lines, I think the mindset of KJ running back from the locker room with a jacked up shoulder in Ames and Self rewarding that act, which was in the best interest of no one save the Cyclones, needs to be adjusted.

We dont always need KJ on the court healthy to win, we almost certainly did not need him on the floor injured that game, and sometimes we need healthy KJ on the bench to win.

I am concerned that by “rewarding” him in that circumstance for something detrimental to the team but could be construed as “toughness” or “sacrifice” is sending a lot of wrong messages.

Let’s get real, keep KJ healthy and ready for those moments when we do need him.

Quit preaching - Bill doesn’t have blind spots or play favorites he always plays the best players that give us the best chance to win!!!

@MoonwalkMafia He’s the height of a 2/3 guard

He has the skills of a bad 5 man (can’t even shoot, doesn’t have a post move)

All he is - is strong and can jump yet

His reach and just awful rebounding iq/hustle hurts his defensive rebounding

But let me tell you - don’t let all that go by the wayside because he effects a game like Ochai - Kj is uh uh that good guys

@kuballin10 I remain a fan of Bill Self, and hope he can be the hero we need this year. The tarot cards have been revealed to him and to all. There is little mystery at this present juncture, but even the wise cannot foresee all ends.

Let it breathe and lets be fans.

He literally just needs to play Dajuan/Zeke/Rylan/Flory and Hunter.

Stop with the preferential treatment to the core 3

@TYOHawk said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

He literally just needs to play Dajuan/Zeke/Rylan/Flory and Hunter.

Stop with the preferential treatment to the core 3

Kj and Shak together in pnr with both attacking mentalities and energy off the bench would be great.

We have a clear 7 and AJ isn’t in it because he doesn’t play like the tcu game very often.

The continual play of diggy is befuddling

@approxinfinity When fans with years of watching can structure minutes better than the $10m man…..I’m not sure I can just sit back and “be a fan and enjoy it” lol

@kuballin10 love it. AJ should continue to get opportunities. Heroes are made in March as you know ;)

@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:

@kuballin10 love it. AJ should continue to get opportunities. Heroes are made in March as you know ;)

Oh man, I completely disagree. I think AJ is largely why we lost to Houston. I'd love for him to just get DNPs when KJ returns...

Core 7 for me is Juan/Zeke/Shak/Rylan/KJ/Flory/Hunt

Dajuan has took a fair amount of blame. But AJ was truly terrible that game against TCU.

Kadarius Toney vs Lions level of bad.

@BShark Podcast I was listening to agrees with you 100 %. - Said all these guys have been given a chance YES even AJ. -They all said it's time to move on from AJ. - Talking about AJ's shot volume like the amount of shots it took him to get his 16 points- -shot volume is high- -real high.-- They talked about when he was at Wisconsin his shot volume-- 3rd highest in the Nation avg 16 shots per game

Majority of people all agree time to move on from the AJ experiment - -Sure he scored 16 against who TCU ?- - then he followed that up with O-fer the following game 0-6 from the field- --- 0-4 from the line- - be good if there was any consistency, they said the only consistency AJ has is bad consistency- needs to guard the water cooler

Lol alright guys. Well. Theres every reason to move on from AJ. But…remember this conversation.

Right now, we have cause for optimism because it seems like we have a few guys who can create their shot (notably Zeke and Rylan) and a nice offensive tandem when Flory and Hunt are together.

Is that promising? Yes. Could it regress? Absolutely.

We are one injury away from needing AJs scoring. One Hunt or Zeke is crapping the bed game where we will need his shot creation.

I’m giving him next year but he’s lost this group imo. The bizarre rotations…weird personnel decisions..