🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Last season, the key to our season was Joel Embiid. This season, our season continues to ride in large part on the development of Cliff Alexander.

It doesn't have to be that way, of course. It makes no sense that this team's future would have to ride on Cliff Alexander. That has been the subject of a lot of type space.

February 21, 2015 -- the day the season died. And we aren't singin' "bye, bye, Miss American Pie." What we're singin' is "why, why, can't Self let big Cliff fly"? Today, is the day the season died.

Against West Virginia, the pace of the game was supposedly all wrong for Cliff. Against Baylor, it was that Cliff wasn't as good against zones.

Today, well, I just don't know. This seemed like the perfect game for Cliff to fly. Instead, our prized recruit -- the #3 player in the country played 11 minutes, at home, against TCU.

Perhaps Cliff's injuries are more significant than we know. I don't think so. Self didn't give him much cover, saying he didn't think he was limited. Self mentioned that all guys have aches and pains. If Cliff was that hurt, why would he start? Why would he play at all? Injury ain't it.

It appears to me, with now just four games left in the regular season, that the season that was riding on Cliff's development, will die a premature death, short of the final four. He apparently isn't developing at a sufficient rate.

Today, on a day when Cliff seemed to have a great opportunity to shine, it was Jamari Traylor who played 24 minutes. And those 24 minutes were typical Jamari Traylor, highlighted by a whopping 3 rebounds. There were multiple moments today that demonstrated why he is so bad on the glass. He gets pushed under the rim, even when he decides to try to block out. The student manager that got in near the end of the game could find his way to 3 rebounds in a game, if he got the same 24 minutes. It is absolutely embarrassing.

But to the point -- we cannot get to the Final Four with Jamari Traylor as our #2 post player. We shouldn't hope it, we shouldn't wish, we should dream it. It is dead. Heck, the way Traylor is playing this season, I question whether we could do that even if Traylor was our #3 post player. But 10-12 minutes? I'd feel much better.

This brings back memories of Brady Morningstar. But this discussion is in a different league. At least with Brady, there were some tangible skill sets to debate. There was glue. With Traylor, there is nothing. Just a below average player that is on Kansas' roster solely because we got stuck after guys turned pro, and Self was apparently surprised by defections. A guy playing solely because we have nothing else (or the "something else" doesn't meet our coach's requirements for playing time).

This is how seasons die. When a player like Traylor is viewed as a better option, when a player like Traylor plays big minutes ... seasons die. And we're left, like all "good old boys, drinkin' whiskey and rye." It's about all that will help.

@HighEliteMajor

Cliff had BETTER be hurt bc this makes NO SENSE! Self HAS to know something we don't. That's a given for sure. There's just no way he thinks Jam Tray gives us the best chance to win.

IF Cliff is really hurt I'd rather give the minutes to Mickelson but that ain't happening this year....

This question is being asked nationally too. I'm perplexed. I'm not enough of a student of the game to fully understand these things. An article last week I saw showed him as having the best per minute numbers of all of our bigs. He'd be averaging a double double if he were playing 30 plus minutes is what I recall it saying.

@HighEliteMajor I agree with a lot of your post - we can't win big (deep NCAA tourney run) with Traylor as our #2 post player, that the season likely rides on Cliff, etc.

But this is on Cliff, not Self. The first time Traylor comes in watch the sequence that precedes it. At 18:10 there's a rebound that comes off that Cliff has clear position, yet gets it taken away by the TCU player. This led to a wide open Kyan Anderson 3-point attempt, which (fortunately) he missed and the rebound also came Cliff's way and he makes almost no effort on the play. Perry ends up with it. This leads to Mason trying to drive 3 on 1, and gets it blocked. Anderson pushes it down the floor, goes to the hole and dishes to Kenrich Williams for a lay-up. Cliff was right there, either to try and stop Anderson or to challenge Williams, but instead gets turned around on the pass and just kind of lazily spins to the baseline to inbound the ball. It was some of the worst effort I've seen. I was appalled. I wouldn't have blamed Self is he would have kept Cliff out the entire remainder of the game. It was that inexcusable. I was livid in my living room, so I can only imagine how Self must have felt on the sideline watching his "prized recruit" turn in such a piss-poor effort.

This is just an example. Another time he weakly challenged Brandon Parrish on a fast break and Parrish got an "and 1" hoop and the free throw. A little while later he takes an ill-advised baseline jump shot. And so on, and so on...

We talked earlier this week on how raw Cliff is from a skill standpoint. Terrible footwork, no go-to move, no face up jump shot, etc. So basically he's...a rich-man's Jamari Traylor? He has to earn his minutes with defense and rebounding, two areas that don't require great skill to be successful but do require energy, hustle, heart, etc. I didn't see it from him today. Today I saw what Self referred to as not playing with a motor.

So really, I don't disagree that this may be why seasons die. But I might disagree that it's because Traylor is viewed as a better option. Maybe he IS a better option. Which is simultaneously a referendum on Traylor and Alexander.

No doubt Cliff has made mistakes. But he couldn't have been given a 2nd chance in the 2nd half?

Still too early. Perry is coming on. Traylor has his moments. Lucas is trying hard. Alexander, until he plays a 25-30 minute game, I just don't know.

I do believe Self was surprised to Embiid leaving. At least in the beginning of the season when all the talk was on how raw Joel was, which was quite true. I do not believe anyone thought he would improve to the point he did in one season. But even if Self thought he was OAD from the get go potential top recruits would have taken one look and said "nope, not going against that for PT".

I agree KU is in trouble at the 5. Traylor isn't big enough, Landon hasn't currently got the skills, and god(of your choice of course) only knows whats up with Cliff. He has his moments but over all he just appears clumsy and confused. I've posted on another thread a possible theory on the clumsiness but the confusion I don't get at this point of the season.

@KansasComet
Did you see Lucas' line? 9 minutes and zeroes across the board. I'm not saying he's not trying, but I could try hard and have the same line!

Cliff is powerful, but the word confused is the right one. I know the limits of the other Bigs, but right now, Cliff is lost on the court. No one has ever picked up what coach wants them to do as quickly as JoJo and Cliff should never be compared to JOJo. Every one who plays minutes in the Big 12 has a scouting report outlining strengths and weakness. Jamari is doing fine running the weave, which is something Cliff cannot do. Apparently everyone is excited about our new Outside/In policy, should we go back to the High/Low?
Not hustling also kept Kelly on the bench today.

@wissoxfan83 said:

@KansasComet
Did you see Lucas' line? 9 minutes and zeroes across the board. I'm not saying he's not trying, but I could try hard and have the same line!

But he doesn't pick up three fouls in the first half with moving screens.

@wissoxfan83 Yes. I watched the entire game. He was not the worst. He got himself in excellent position to score. He just flat out missed two easy shots. Not sure if you could have gotten 3 shot attempts, but I believe in you too!

@wrwlumpy Excellent point!!

This team always had problems at the 5 position. We knew it going into the year. I took a look at Cliff Alexander and thought "Ok, he's 6'9". Decent wingspan. No dribble. Clunky feet." Not sure why anybody expected much different from year 1. We were always going to be better defensively playing small and quick.

It is doubtful that it "clicks" for Alexander this year. That the game slows down for him and he can consistently be counted on. I've detailed before how every other post player under Self, with the exception of Embiid (not a comparison @wrwlumpy, just a contrast), has struggled their freshman seasons. So if we were banking on Cliff progressing enough to put us over the top, we were always likely to be disappointed.

Should we have expected more? Because he was ranked #3 coming out of high school? The more I watch him this year, the more I wonder why he was that highly ranked. And I'm not saying he can't still be a very good player. But what did we see from him in high school that would leave us to believe he was going to be better than he has been out of the gate? A lot of dunks against smaller players. We saw that. Some impressive "man's rebounds". We saw that. Some crowd-hyping swats. We saw that. But again, we didn't see an over abundance of skill. Post moves. Footwork. Jump shot. A high basketball IQ. None of that. All we saw was an ability to overpower high school players. In many ways, he is more of a project than Embiid ever was.

I'll admit that I too was one of the fans that thought the season hinged on Cliff. However, my thinking was that we needed Cliff to get more out of Ellis. That Cliff was the only player we had that could be paired with Ellis that could make Ellis better. Cliff could do the "dirty work" - rebounding and defense - and that would allow Perry to focus solely on carrying the scoring load in the post. However, I no longer believe that. Of course it would still be nice if Cliff could pick up some of the slack, but Self has brilliantly toughened Perry up and got him operating at a high level without a proficient running mate in the post. It is no longer incumbent on Cliff elevating his game.

Failure to have a second reliable post option still might mean curtains for us in the big dance. But because of Perry's recent play I no longer believe that to be a certainty, and for that reason I won't be holding any Bruce Weber-esque funerals for the '14-'15 season. Not today.

@icthawkfan316 nice write!

Alex is not our tourney answer. Mari is experience and he did provide some nice minutes against TCU. Alex looks plain lost and frankly over matched at times. He is a flash in the pan at this point. I'd play Mari at this point because he gives way more than Alex. Did you see Mari's hustle? The guy was literally giving up his body today. YOU don't see Alex giving that same effort. Mari knows he's not lotto material, but he's going to give max effort. I'll give the pt and lose or bow out early over Alex's half ass effort any day.

I'm convinced Self uses Mari to show Alex what he has to do in games. Mari gives Alex examples, but Alex not only gives half effort, but then his discipline on the court is obvious. He picked up too many fouls too soon. Sorry, I'm not convinced that Alex is ready for major minutes.

@HighEliteMajor So, no Alex is not our answer to deep post-season play. It appears that Ellis is going to be our answer and we all know that will lead to...double teams.

At least our guard play will provide some challenges to the opposing teams. You never know which guard/s will show up or who exactly to defend. Graham was a nice relief today for Oubre. We've got to have that consistently. Greene and Selden were pretty much MIA today. Oubre was scoreless? Graham answered the call. Without Graham today, KU loses.

My other concern is this: I'm watching other 1-2 seeds and they are taking care of business. They are beating teams. It appears they are getting their second wind. I'm concerned that IF KU continues to struggle like they did against this TCU team, with all due respect, they blew 12-14 pt leads today, why? TCU was allowed to stay in this game. KU can't do this ending the season. Our concerns are extremely valid for the B12 title, tourney, and especially the NCAAs. KU allows teams to stay in the game this late in the season, its going to be a disappointing season. I hope to be wrong.

The thing I like about this year's team is, you never know. You never know if this team will blow an opponent out or get blown out. You never know who is going to be the leading scorer in any particular game. That includes Cliff Alexander. He is capable of leading the team in scoring and rebounding on any particular night. I don't think his problem is his play. I think his problem is he is not the focal point. Probably since the first time he ever played organized ball, he has been the focal point. A starter, that the offense revolves around. A player that doesn't have to think about whether to shoot, dribble or pass. The answer was always simple, do whatever I want, the way I want and dominate everybody doing it. I believe if this young man is given the green light and told, just go out there and rebound and stuff everything in sight, he can be himself. That probably will not happen, because Coach Self is going to teach him the game of basketball and all of it's little nuances, and that will take time. So, as we enter the NCAA Tournament, and teams begin to scout us, who can they focus on. Answer: No one. We have too many weapons this year and anyone can get hot during any given game. Graham was living proof of that today.

Ok, I feel like asking for forgiveness for a bad attitude today! I've been down on HCBS for not playing Cliff. But let's assume He comes back for year two and really GETS it. And he sites numerous lessons he learned while at KU playing for multiple years and then plays in the league for 10+ years.

@VailHawk master of the obvious quote "He's just a FRESHMAN!"

Remember Mario Chalmers trip to Hawaii his freshman year?

Remember Steve Woodbury shooting free throws at OSU his freshman year?

I'm out

UCONN won the National Title last year from the perimeter. Louisville did the same thing the year before. It can be done without dominant post players. I am not thrilled with Cliff only playing a few minutes, Jamari being an average player and Lucas being a below average player but the season is not dead. Keep the faith.

Rumors of our death are premature. My opinion is I have no clue why he doesn't play Cliff more. I think we're a better team with Cliff than Jamari. But, I am willing to allow our coach as much room as he needs to build the team as he sees fit. I'm thinking - maybe he wants to unleash the beast in the NCAA tournament. We have 4 reg season games left, potentially 3 games in the Big 12 conference tourney, so we'll just see how it plays out. I really think we'll see a late charge from Cliff...

@truehawk93 I agree that most of the potential 1-2 seeds are taking care of business but hey, if we played in the awful SEC, awful Pac 12 or whatever f*cking league Gonzaga plays in we would probably be winning our games in more convincing fashion.

Great comments by everyone, and I agree with pretty much all of it. At some point during the game someone on twitter asked, "why won't Self play Cliff?" To which someone else responded "Oh today? Probably because he has three fouls in 8 minutes." That pretty much sums it up. Cliff has turned into quite the project it seems. His ability to give up and-ones is pretty bad.

But all that being said, there was a point in the game when I thought, "wow, this could turn out really badly for Cliff." What I meant by that is, KU is the leader for Thon Maker and Chiek Diello in the recruiting game, and in my opinion, Maker would make this team a national championship favorite. And since Self obviously won't adjust his system, Maker would be an Embiid-like get. Also with Bragg coming in next year, Cliff may get lost in the shuffle. It's a good problem to have for us as fans, but Cliff's lack of development, particularly of basketball acumen, seems to be one of most troubling things. He obviously never learned much about the system and strategy of the game of basketball in high school. Cliff is clearly, clearly not ready for the NBA, but with potentially 3 top recruits coming in to play his position, where does that really leave us with Cliff?

I think the sad thing about Cliff is that someone ever projected him as a lottery pick. He's a 6-8 forward who is really going to have to find his niche in the NBA. It seems unlikely at this point. But it creates a lot of problems for everyone.

HEM is my favorite poster on "how" but not "what for". Why euthanize a season where we can win our 11th freaking title in a row? Self is approaching Wooden territory and we're supposed to remove life support?

IF the regular season is just a long qualifier for THE TOURNAMENT then why watch?

I do realize that the true subject of the post is Cliff vs. Traylor and that the D word is a rhetorical device. Behind the word is a value judgement though. Maybe Self cares more about #11 than investing in Cliff for March.

@KansasComet I scored 2 points in a real college basketball game once, would that change your view that I could have gotten 3 shot attempts? :)

@icthawkfan316

" But again, we didn't see an over abundance of skill. Post moves. Footwork. Jump shot. A high basketball IQ. None of that. All we saw was an ability to overpower high school players. In many ways, he is more of a project than Embiid ever was."

I think life in general is going just way too fast for Cliffie right now. His head just seems to spin when he comes off the floor. Hopefully he ain't hanging out with Snacks too often. Class, BB-did I say class, traveling, social life, more class, & then again, school work has him overwhelmed. I don't think Cliff is adjusting to a lot of the world around him right now & it's surfacing as confusion at the one thing in life he is competent at. Hope like heck I'm wrong, but he looks completely lost day after day after day. JMO

He just may not be the sharpest tool in the shed...

@HighEliteMajor

I absolutely agree with your assessment. It's too late now to expect Cliff to change into this player we need him to be. His injuries might be holding him back and he might not mentally believe he can fight through them to help this team out. Or is he just saving himself from further injury so he can get paid in a few months. It's a great mystery to anyone probably including coach.

I thought because he got benched in the WVU game that he would come out with an edge. I didn't see it, I saw early fouls again plague him, I saw missed offensive opportunities, lack of effort on the boards, lack of effort to stop your man from getting an easy layup. All the things that continue to keep him on the bench. When he got that cheap 3rd foul out on the 3 point land that was the last straw for me and coach.

The question I have is "what motivates Cliff". I've yet to see him talk about himself and be like "I need to get better", "I need to do these things". Devonte called himself out and look what happened he had a monster career game. That to me tells me the character of Devonte vs Cliff. What kind of Character does Cliff have if Coach has continually challenged him and he just doesn't get it.

I will give him a pass for being a freshman and in general every big man at KU has struggled their first year, some much worse than him. He's just under the microscope because we don't have 2 more talented kids then him, he was a top 5 recruit and All American and the expectations that he could come in and help us were real. So when you look at it, expecting a freshman big man to be the savior to this storied program in a system that usually spits kids back to reality their first year might just be unrealistic.

I have no doubt in my mind that the lessons Self is trying to teach him are in his best interest even if its taking away his playing time. Yesterday before the game I was wondering why Cliff doesn't get the coaching in game, then give him the chance to learn from that lesson. Yesterday's game told me why that doesn't happen. We are stuck with Mari & Lucas giving us just enough to maybe hold on for #11 but if Ellis isn't playing at the level he is now in the tournament it will be the death of our season. Anything less than a Mitch Mcgary showing is going to change his season around. Maybe this struggle is what he needs so that whatever offseason uniform he is in, he can look back and get hungry from it.

Nice sting of posts, but horrible title. The season is not dead and we are playing well. TCU is a good team and we are in a great conference. Too much drama in the speculation about the Dance. We are in first place and a top ten team nationally.

However, the lack of playing time accorded to The Big Red Dog is - we all agree - baffling. Yesterday, fouls played a part, but in general we agree that Cliff looks and acts confused about where to go and how to play, no instinctive competitive drive, just hesitation. This is not lack of effort or laziness. Watch the way he sprints up and down the court. This is a confused player and the game has not yet slowed down for him. Cliff has good body language on the court and on the bench.

So why is he playing so few minutes?

This is a little on the coaching staff and a little on the player, and a lot on the Freshman reality of being overwhelmed and banged up. His body is sore, like most players, but especially that first year it has to be a huge physical challenge for the big guy. Last year we had an exceptionally smart player in the post in Jo-Jo which makes the contrast even more glaring, but he was hurt too and had to sit.

Remember the Morris twins their first season, how T-Rob played year one, all the KU late bloomers at the 5 over the past ten years...

But there can be no doubt that Cliff is by far our best talent in the low post at the 5 this year, and far and away our best defensive rebounder which is our greatest need at the moment (we were bolded textagain outrebounded by an inferior opponent).

Why does Coach not play Cliff in spurts with little advice tips (real time coaching and learning lessons whispered in his ear) in between 5 min stretches? Why play him and when he does not do well, sit him for long periods of time (sometimes an entire half!).

The premise is that he will learn more on the court playing in games than on the bench watching the action, and he is still not being given enough court time to work through his mistakes and learn by doing rather than watching (or worse being "punished").

This is all about Coach Self not having confidence in Cliff's ability to play D and get into the right position on the court. But the key to playing at our highest level, in my opinion, is one word: (more) rebounds. We gotta have the Big Red Dog crash the boards and limit second and third chances to be at our best. RCJH KU!!!

@wissoxfan83 Possibly 😄

@MoonwalkMafia Cliff will get better, its just going to take time, and some "want to"! We may not get those other big guys if Cliff stays. I think Bragg will sub in for Perry, or work w/another big. He can shoot. I think Cliff had a piss poor coach in hs. I still have hopes for him this year, just not as high as the hype he came in w/!

In the Bill Self era, there has only been a single One and Done Player. That player was Andrew Wiggins. The one player from start to finish that Coach Self and the fan base knew would be here for one year and one year only. Others have left after one year, but was that Coach Self's plan for them, when he brought them in? Before anyone says Embiid, Coach Self often talked about what he would be in year two. Embiid was brought to KU for two years, however it didn't happen. Cliff has shown flashes, but doesn't he remind you of a young Thomas Robinson? An absolute beast, that couldn't stay out of foul trouble his first two years When TRob figured it out, it was hell for all opposition. The same can happen with Alexander. It takes time, but his day is coming. Also, think of Frankamp last season. He couldn't get on the court last year. Yet, in the Stanford game, Coach Self turned him loose, and he nearly bailed us out of that game with an excellent performance. Don't forget about Cliff. His time may be coming real soon, but if it happens next year, and he dominates like Thomas Robinson, is it such a bad thing?

Yes, player development is a good thing and Cliff should stay another year.

But considering this year, and this team, the most glaring weakness is post play and post rebounding especially on the defensive end.

We are playing very good first shot D now (Coach has worked his magic again as the team is peaking on D at year end), but the way other teams can get offensive rebounds in bundles and get second and third shots and wear down our D has the KU nation concerned.

The best (only?) answer over the next four weeks is Cliff grabbing a boatload of boards and limiting second and third attempts against other very good teams. Perry is doing much better on the boards, Jamari is a weak rebounder and Landon is limited. Hunter is MIA and it seems that only Cliff is capable of stepping up down low and snatching 8-12 / game ... if he gets the minutes.

Think about it - 22 offensive rebounds in a game against a KU team, Scary!

Time has run out on letting Cliff stay in the game to work things out. There are 4 games left in the season and we are holding on to a one game lead. I saw nothing yesterday that showed it would be smart to let him stay in and learn from his mistakes.

Last year UCON a 7 seed and UK an 8 seed with a combined 18 losses in the regular season battled their way into April. Anything can happen in March and KU will be dancing so I'm personally good with that!

@wrwlumpy Normally I might agree. But, I didn't see anything great out of Jamari or Lucas that warranted not giving Cliff another chance in the 2nd half. If one or the other were making things happen....Ok, go with the hot player. But, I didn't see that. Quite a few of you other posters are more adept at seeing the small things that keep guys out of the lineup than I am. But, I ask you or anyone else.....would we really have lost that much by putting him back in during the 2nd half? Lucas was inept, I thought. Jamari was OK....attacked the basket a few times.....but nothing special.

@KUSTEVE I agree with you. I think that Cliff, will, at some point, show us what he is capable of. He has show enough flashes, that I just can't believe that he won't be a valuable part of whatever March run we make.

@KansasComet So, you posted a really nice post regarding Alex. You're basically saying he is selfish, undisciplined, and not quite ready for Self's system. Bingo, in a round about way you have posted what all elite, top picks have to endure. They have a choice: either I enter a program and buy into the system or continue to play MY game. We've seen some players in KU history especially with Bill Self that have chosen to "play their game." Where are they now? Also, Self is being blamed for the failure of said players too. However, when you look at the players that have adjusted into Self's system, how many are well adjusted to the NBA? Most all of them that are in the NBA.

Mari, Lucas, Selden (more so lately), Oubre (a bit late), Ellis (totally all about Self ball), and most of the other players have bought into Self ball. Now, critics still blame Self and are actually criticizing Self for Ellis' inability to play up to his potential. Ellis is pretty much growing in front of the nation's eyes. Sure, he has a few areas to improve, but he's a solid player. He will adjust nicely in the NBA better than most.

My point is simply, no matter what people say, players that play Self's system will succeed and adjust more than people will give credit. The players that fail to play into Self's system, will not only struggle, but have difficulty adjusting into higher levels of play: Dleague, NBA, European league, etc. It's the player's choice, not Self. Self can only offer them the options. We all know his system is not the easiest either. But, if followed and learned well, they will be much better able to adjust in the league.

How many remember Kobe Bryant's comments about how AAU ball was ruining these young players? He blasted at how these young players are failing to learn the basics and therefore enter the NBA totally incompetent to play at the highest level. Bryant and James are exceptions. They were fortunate enough not to learn at the college level. They are rare and many of these young players want to follow their path. Wiggins is the only player that might have followed them, but even he will tell you Self's system was vital to his development. Where are the critics with Wiggins? Why don't they attack Self's development of Wiggins' game? I don't hear them attacking Self for failing Wiggins. Nor do I hear critics attacking Wiggins. I find this interesting and sad all at the same time.

@truehawk93 really good! I remember Wigs saying last year that he was shocked how little he knew, and how much he needed to learn! Thx!

@truehawk93 Thanks. I cannot speak as to whether he is selfish or not. I do think he is young and will develop footwork and discipline in time. Once he does, watch out!

Great comments and discussion.

@MoonwalkMafia hit on this yesterday or Friday, I believe, and it underscores my thoughts as well. It's not that Self is absolutely wrong in not playing Cliff. It's more that Cliff, for whatever reason, is not where we need him to be. Would I simply play Cliff and take my medicine?

That is not as simple as it seems.

The better question is, "If I were dogmatically committed to throwing the ball into the post and refusing to scheme to capitalize on my team's strengths, would I simply play Cliff and take my medicine?"

That answer is yes.

The reason why is simple. We cannot win a national title with Jamari Traylor as our #2 minutes post player.

As I've read comments, no one disputes that.

It is just that simple.

Of course, an 11th Big 12 title is nice. It seems about like 9 or 10 to me, and kind of like 12. It's how spoiled I am. @ParisHawk mentioned John Wooden and the conference streak -- Wooden's greatness had little to do with winning those conference titles. Otherwise, Mark Few would be mentioned in the same breath or whoever coached Gonzaga. It was Wooden's national titles. That and only that. @ParisHawk also said, "Maybe Self cares more about #11 than investing in Cliff for March." The idea of this makes me want to throw up. But maybe that's a correct statement. Self's doing what he thinks is best, to win the game at hand. He has always done that. That translates to conference titles and good NCAA seeding.

Regardless, Kansas needs to win national titles. That is greatness. Given our coach's offensive mindset right now, and with Traylor (or Lucas for that matter) being the #2 minutes guy in the post, the hopes for a national title are dead. It is just that simple.

Now, could his offensive mindset change ..... ?

Watching 12 years of Bill Self teams, right? We (should) know how long his system takes to assimilate, especially for bigs, right? So we are pinning our post-season (F4) chances on an undersized frosh?? What? Are we desperate, or something?

Most of you ku fans/alums that post here should be a bit more knowledgeable about OUR system+players+coach, than most of the 'outside' observers/talking heads, save for a few such as Jay Bilas. When we see lack of effort by Cliff, & the quick hook, its clear Cliff aint lotto, & loves-his-bigs-Bill-Self aint done coaching him up.

So, to HEMs specific point with an accurizing twist: dont expect Cliff to be that exemplary bastion of nightly consistency and domination that leads us to a F4. Nope.

But whats more accurate a reason for us NOT making an F4 this year is the jekyll/hyde 1st halves vs 2nd halves...thats most of the team, folks. 15th youngest team in Div1, and it shows. And, yes, we are smaller than in years past, so there ARE matchup issues...but we "knowledgeable" KU fans knew that, right? At least against a packed-in zone like Stanfords, we have the snipers to defeat, and the dribble-drive to break it.

A meaningless point here: but did anyone see KY get off to a 32-6 start vs Pearl's Auburn? Auburn ended with 61 pts...much better than KU's 42. But is Auburn better than KU? (No, but any team can show poor effort, ala Cliff vs TCU, or make poor decisions after penetration, ala Mason vs KY or Oubre vs TCU).

Stay analytical, my friends--> we never, EVER would have pinned our hopes on frosh Shady, TRob, Twins (we tried, they are the reason MichSt literally beat our ass out of that yr's tourney), Cole, DJax, Withey, etc. Conceptually, in this system, that just isnt happening, no evidence in over a decade with several talented kids, that they 'get it' quick enough. Possible exceptions are frosh Cole, but too small sample size his frosh yr other than few min vs psychoT, and possibly Embiid, although Texas roughed him up, neutralizing him, providing a template for future March foes to scout, if he'd stayed healthy. But we'll not see an Embiid for years. Maybe Okafor is actually better, but both those types of 7ftrs are rare as hell, and we sure have nothing close currently.

Kudos to HEM for making us think outside our comfort zones. Im not sure I can be so abruptly decisive as he is prognosticating. After all, we've played a very tough sched/RPI, and its all about our OWN intensity (our A-game) x 40min...(which is Self's whole damn point to Cliff)...along with some favorable matchups in the Madness. Anything can happen. The book on this season isnt finished.

Oh, and knowing this system, like HEM has said in the past: I'd rather keep these 4 MickeyDs for another year, instead of replacing their experience & knowledge with yet-another-round of newbie frosh.

Other thoughts:

--> Cliff quite obviously still in Selfs doghouse, toughening box.

--> Imagine, for 1 tantalizing moment, that Cliff starts to play with reckless abandon & hustle, throwing his body around like Jamari Traylor (his fellow Chicagoan, who, according to some posters would be a -5star out of high school, I'd say sarcastically...). Why cant Cliff play like that? Because he's NEVER had to, & must be shown & taught. Ellis + Jamari doing the showing&teaching vs TCU.

--> Davonte Graham. Kid is better than frosh Chalmers. There, I said it. Mario failed as a frosh PG, Self having to permanently move him to 2G. Graham, on the other hand, has proven to be vital as another PG. Self got a gem with him!

--> 2 great PGs, wings by committee, and bigs by committee. Got depth. Got 40minutes of intensity??????

--> I personally find it distasteful to knock Jamari. Kid gives 110%. And if he's gassed occasionally, I get that, but his m.o. IS hustle, and he's made spectacular coast2coast plays for us. I'd like to use him as a positive example & positive piece of the puzzle. Ask Mike Krzyzewski about Traylor and Madison Sq.Garden...

Two things I would like to see the team take more pride in: Positions and Passing.

It's been clear the past two games that these have not been areas of focus.

Sharper positioning should lead to better rebounding [see WVU game] and sometimes that's as much about sealing off others so a teammate can get the rebound as it is about allowing a specific player to rebound. On offense, positioning can create lanes and pull the defense... which leads to #2...

Passing should be treated as a weapon. Great passing kills an opponent; poor passing gives life to the opponent. The 10 turnovers in the first half [TCU game] is just sloppy... some of those passes were almost disrespectful to the opponent. Perhaps part of the problem is that I can remember some former teams that really excelled in this area. It requires great awareness and sometimes this team just doesn't seem to have that sharp awareness.

That's my Sunday armchair analysis ;-) FWIW

@bskeet sloppy!! I did think Perry did a fine job of sealing and Dg got some nice passes to him. Crisp would be nice, passing and cutting.

@HighEliteMajor This is something we will not know the full story on, maybe ever. What are the possibilities after the season? Cliff declares for the draft. He stays one more year. He transfers.
Im no scout but maybe Cliff isnt ready and maybe he is. I agree though, the numbers say Cliff is a much better player than Traylor. What the hell is Coach doing!? You just dont leave your toughest horse in the barn when your trying to pull the plows. Lame analogy but yall know what I mean.
One thing I do know, I never for one minute thought they were final four material this season. I do not have that expectation for this team at all. Maybe sweet 16. Maybe.
Another thing, KU needs to win Monday night regardless of who they play or dont play. They need that game. Kstate is clearly having a down year but in this league that's not a guarantee of a loss against your instate rival.
Again, I am not holding out hope for a long run in the big dance. But, I am holding out hope for an 11th conference title.

@HighEliteMajor

A helluva good piece of writing even if I disagree on the substance. Great metaphor. Solid logic. I read the premises differently. You have probability on your side. I have a wild hair on mine. You will probably prevail, but like Nimitz, I see what I see and so, like you, I have to go another course. But I would recommend your take to anyone that looks at mine and says, "Nope, not buying."

Rock Chalk!

@jaybate-1.0 USS Nimitz. Thats one bad@$$ ship

@bskeet I agree, especially on the passing. So many times it seems lackadaisical and scares me to think what a more alert opposing defense could do.

@jaybate-1.0

Don't forget that Nimitz won all the big sea battles and the the overall sea campaign and was instrumental in winning WW II and was the US representative when Japan officially surrendered. Arguably, the brightest naval warfare mind of all time. Not a bad vision to have.

@JayHawkFanToo Agreed. Most will also agree though that the Battle of Midway, but for some bad calls by Yamamoto's staff, could have easily gone the other way.

@joeloveshawks SEC is trash and the Gonzaga Mountain or whatever league is NO B12. It's a bit of a stretch to even compare the other leagues to the B12. I re-read my post and the point I'm making is KU can't get these fairly good 12-14 pt leads. The TCUs can't be allowed to go on 7,8,9-0 runs and KU will not be able to recover.

I know these games create a false sense of winning or even coming from behind, and this is good, but KU has got to learn how to get a lead and maintain that lead. They did for the most part. I'd just feel personally better if they were able to keep those double digit leads and not lose them in stretches.

If you remember or review the TCU game, they blew their lead on a 7-0 TCU run and it was right after the big plays by Mason and Ellis too. I sat there and watched them gain a 14 pt lead and then allowed TCU to come back within 5 pts? So, I guess it was good they were able to get/maintain the lead and/or allow an unpredictable team like TCU to come back to within 5 pts and still win?

My bottom line with this individualized and opinionated post is that if they can continue to win in this fashion, great, more power to them, and hopefully this kind of play will take them straight to the NCAA championship game in April? I hope that's the point of your comment. If so, you have either more 'faith' in this teams inability or I have more hope in their abilities.

Just for the record, I'm not expecting this team to blow teams off the court by 20+ pts either. But to win like this at home is a little unsettling.

We are a young team, very young. We will make rookie mistakes--- fouling a three point shot, not once but twice. We have to live with that, not like it. For lack of a better example KSU football is in every game because they don't beat themselves. It takes many of those players three or four years to get playing time and still they have to do it Snyder's way or they get jerked. KU basketball doesn't have that luxury because of players leaving early. Self plays the toughest schedule, demands his style and gets great results year after year.
There are great coaches out there, but none I would trade for Self.

@brooksmd

Like Calipari in 2008?

@HighEliteMajor said:

Regardless, Kansas needs to win national titles. That is greatness. Given our coach's offensive mindset right now, and with Traylor (or Lucas for that matter) being the #2 minutes guy in the post, the hopes for a national title are dead. It is just that simple.

Now, could his offensive mindset change ..... ?

HEM- So what is exactly your point? Other than our season is 'dead' with Lucas and Traylor. Are you saying that Lucas and Traylor are utterly incapable of delivering some winning game performances?and/or are you saying Self needs to change his offensive mindset?

I disagree. I think if Lucas is given some of Cliff's mins, he can/will produce. I think Mari has proven that he's our more experienced man that can play some energy mins. You and I both know that Self is/will not change his offensive game plan. He will live and die by the inside/out game. We have firepower but it's just not consistent enough this late in the season. The team showed some really nice ability to move the ball to the open or cutting man to the basketball in the last 5-8 mins of the game when they ground out the TCU win. A win is a win and at this point, I'll take it. They can win, period. However, you're not satisfied with winning, you're more concerned about who? If Alex doesn't produce and shows his typical undisciplined self, and gets into foul proned trouble, then Mari will have to be our go to big. Lucas give us some great experience against some good teams. Let's just win and let Self decide who might lead us to that win.

@truehawk93 I think you have identified my point exactly -- if we are to win Self's way offensively, then we need Cliff clicking commensurate with his #3 ranking. If not, then we can't win playing Self's way offensively.

Think hard about your post. You say that "Lucas can/will produce." There is no evidence of that. Lucas is a nice kid. Tries hard. But the evidence shows that his production is sporadic.

You said, "I think Mari has proven that he's our more experienced man that can play some energy mins." Energy and what? Have you read @Jesse-Newell's article last week? I get you think he'll have to "be our go to big." That, my friend, is scary. But it is also true. Thus, my point.

Each player could have a game where they do play really well ... Traylor won us the EKU game last season. But winning 6 games in March?

You also said, "A win is a win and at this point, I'll take it. They can win, period. However, you're not satisfied with winning, you're more concerned about who?"

My concern is whether we can win a national title. Really, more my concern has been "how" -- since really before the season started. Being satisfied with wins has little to do with whether we can win a national title. The Lucas/Traylor combo are certainly a fine 4th and 5th big combo, and even perhaps 3rd and 4th. But if either of them is the 2nd choice, using Self's offensive approach, it ain't happenin'.

If the heading for this thread had read, "The Day the Run for the National Title Died" most posters would not be lurching along like bouncing gliders, swooping in and out of luft. From the outset, the direction of this thread was pointed toward the winning of NCAA titles, not weekly contests or league crowns. Ergo, so many muddled conjectures regarding coaching and player development.

Truthfully, ive never thought this team was capable of winning the NC. Ever. From day. Before day 1. Although like everyone else im sure, i certainly have that hope. And im certainly in agreement with those that think we need to win it every year. Absoutely we do. Thats what this program must be. That has to be the goal. Every year. No arguments. No questions asked. The end. But im even more greedy. I wanna win everything else too along the way. But i am most certainly willing to trade regular season success for ncaa tourney success. No question about it. And as far as this team goes. I agree with @HighEliteMajor on this. The only shot at winning the NC. If Self is gonna rely on inside/out first and foremost. Cliff has to be the number 2 big. Or number 1 big maybe. Since Ellis is really not a big. But. It maybe and probably is already too late to develop Cliff enough for him to be become the player he'd have to become for that to happen. It may sound debbie downer. But hey. Reality bites. Doesnt mean im not still hoping and pulling for this group. Regardless of how Coach wants to play it

@cragarhawk Have to disagree with you. Regular season wins are fine. Winning the league is fine, even though it means very little, yes #1 seed in league tourney, but #2 might be a better bracket. I want final fours and NC's. Give me that and sub par regular season is acceptable especially if it necessary to obtain the big ring.

@Gunman um.... Seems like you agree to me

@Gunman

Here is a question for you...if you have sub-par regular seasons and don't even win the conference, what are the chances of getting to the Final Four or winning the "big ring"?

Yes, I agree that the NCAA is structured so any team with a lucky run can win, but wouldn't you agree that a good regular season showing and a Conference Title gives you a much better shot at a Final Four and the Title than a sub-par season? It surely seems that way to me.

IMHO, "sub-par" season and "Final Four" is and oxymoron, wouldn't you agree?

We've also aluded to the B12 too. Let's not forget the B12 is far far more difficult than all the other leagues. It's really difficult to see just how B12/KU compares to the #1 and other #2 seeds. I think KU suffers from being a victim of their own league. Think if KU was in the other seeds' leagues? KU would dominate all, but maybe UK. UK is the SEC, along with maybe LSU and possibly Arkansas. But in the end those teams aren't playing in leagues where they are beat up every single game.

Here's where the B12 factor will come into play this year. I believe the B12 will either wreak havoc after being in a really tough league or they will stink up the entire tourney. Hell, even our bottom two teams would be sitting possibly 2-3 in most leagues at this point.

Our coaching remains the x-factor too. I will or would really like to see Tubby, Barnes, Drew, The Mayor, Lil' Jimmy Dickens in Stillwater, and Kruger Co match wits with the rest of the nation. Many will point to earlier match-ups, but we all know that every single B12 is so much better and competitive at this point in the season. I know they are better since beginning of the season as well. However, you can't tell me UK is better now than they were at the beginning? UK was a team in the preseason, playing like they were playing as most are now playing toward the back stretch of the season. No malice against this team, but their wins are really subpar against some soft teams. Even their game against us was a bit soft. We were so green at #5. I can't even believe we were #5 so early. We then plummeted to #10 after losing that game against UK.

I think UK is bound to lose at possibly the round of 32, and definitely the 16 and maybe the Elite 8. If they get past Elite 8, I'm afraid they'll be crowned once again.

Many of you counted KU out early. Why? Some of you have said that you never expected a NC. Yet, they are one of favored teams to play in the NC game. Now whether they win the NC is a different story. UConn went in with a lineup similar to KU and won. They had a tenacious pg that willed them to the NC.

I'm convinced KU can and will go all the way until they lose. I will never bet against them so early. One thing at a time. Let's focus on the B12 title and each game left, then look to B12 tourney. There's plenty of time for the NCAA tourney.

BTW- KU really doesn't have a choice but to win out right either. We can't expect ISU to lose a game going forward. I hope this team and Self are not expecting ISU to lose. I'm expecting them to win the rest of their games, as we too need to win out against our remaining games. ISU isn't expecting us to lose, but they will definitely be waiting for us to lose, so they can step in by default and share or worse win out right. Gawd, please NO sharing. RCJHKU

Being "fine" at anything is not ok w/me! How boring to watch and cheer on KU teams if it's ok win or lose. I don't like to lose at all. And if you flop in tourney, you have zero to be happy about! I want it all and it would be rather pointless to have ksu chat tomorrow ! Winning is fun!! Most of us are having fun cheering on our team, all the way thru-hopefully all the way!

Big 12 According to Pomeroy;

• 6 teams in the top 25 - 60%
• 7 teams in the top 30 - 70% (KU 11-3)
• 9 teams in the top 93 - 90%

Big 12 According to Sagarin:

• 6 teams in the top 25 - 60%
• 7 teams in the top 28 - 70% (KU 11-3)
• 9 teams in the top 81 - 90%

Other conferences as per Pomeroy (top team record)

• ACC - 5 teams in the top 30 - 33% (Virginia 13-1)
• Big - 10 4 teams in the top 30 -29% (Wisconsin 13-1)
• SEC - 2 teams in the top 30 - 14% (UK 14-0)
• PAC 12 - 2 teams in the top 30 - 17% (Arizona 12-2)

70% of the conference teams are ranked in the top 30....this means that fully 1/4 of the top 30 teams are Big 12 teams; this is frigging amazing. There is no question that from top to bottom the Big 12 is the strongest conference. The other conferences seem to have 1 or 2 dominant teams and then the quality drops.

@JayHawkFanToo Nimitz was a great admiral, but also he had the sledgehammer of US industrial might on his side. Japan's 1941 A-rated navy died by attrition. When the 700+ crack naval aviators Japan used at Pearl Harbor gradually dwindled away as casualties, there were scant few replacements due to the very "elite-few" status and prolonged training syllabus. The 4 key naval battles of 1942 were ALL very close tactically/strategically, with the Japanese borderline winning 2 of them tactically, yet losing the same 2 strategically. Coral Sea, Midway, Santa Cruz, Eastern Solomons...fascinating reading about almost on-par carrier battles. By 1944, however, the "sledgehammer" of the USN was 15 large fleet carriers = total domination. The USN essentially continued their 15 carrier idea all the way thru the 80's. Also, technological advances with stronger US aircraft, as well as the theoretical doctrine behind making robust (vs. the Japanese "light as possible" ) aircraft helped spell the end of Japanese naval airpower, and by consequence, their navy. The role of US submarines in the Pacific deserves mention as well. US subs achieved a chokehold of Japan and accounted for over 90% of Japan's merchant marine being destroyed. Something the German U-boats failed to accomplish in 2 world wars. Fascinating war history... (Apologies for diverging from sports. I'll blame @jaybate...)

@Gunman "I want final fours and NC's. Give me that an sub par regular season is acceptable."

Gunman, I know what you are saying, but a subpar regular season implies some fundamental faults within such a 'subpar' team...making it very, very unlikely they survive 4 games to get to an F4. Its almost mutually exclusive.

Problem is, you can also have an overall #1 seed like the MorrisHawks, who just had multiple fails in the same game (offense, defense, turnovers), which allowed VCU to upset them. There are no guarantees.

What I tell myself every season is: try to understand my team, learn its strengths, weaknesses, and idiosyncracies by the time March rolls around...and hope for the best. Bunch of 18-22yr olds is what it is...

@ralster

Nicely done. Sometime you need the hammer but you also need to know how use it properly, which Nimitz did rather well. Nimitz was also one of the pioneers of submarine warfare and he directed the up fitting of diesels engines and eventually with Admiral Hyman Rickover they were the two key individuals in the development of the current nuclear fleet.

Enough history, back to sports.

@JayHawkFanToo Agree on all accounts.

@HighEliteMajor

The season doesn't have to die if HCBS would start running some offense for the Fools Gold three point shot.

@HighEliteMajor I knew @jaybate-1.0 would love this post, lol--you used metaphors and referenced 60's-70's music.

@Lulufulu

Oh, yes, the USS Nimitz is formidable. And if I recall you know something about this sort of thing from experience.

@JayHawkFan

Too, thanks for the assist in recalling those additional aspects of Nimitz. You are so right. He is too often reduced to Midway. The broader picture of his accomplishment is vastly more important to our legacy, even if Midway were perhaps the most dramatically pivotal in isolation. The fact is war is a process, not events in isolation. There might have been another way to win the war had Midway gone the other way. But it is the long process of winning that enables us to endure as a great country, not just anyone single individual, or single action by a single individual. Still, I do like driving down any freeway named for him and thinking of him letting it all ride on those carriers once upon a time...and betting right. Rock Chalk!

@KUinLA

Cue Anchors Away! and a Naval metaphor, because I am also fond of my US Navy, Marines, Army, Air Force and Coast Guard!!!

@JayHawkFanToo and @ralster...

NEVER ENOUGH HISTORY!!!!

Thank you both for enriching my reading day with these recollections.

@JayHawkFanToo
Thanks for the info. Despite the impressive data on B12, I have a question. Not beating on B12 (love our games, the best in the country), but how impressive were we last year in the tourney? How many survived the first or second week? ISU, KSU, WV all fell flat. Seriously, how many & what years have B12 dominated the tourney? I can't recall, but was left wondering how good B12 really was last year and the year before. All said, I'm still banking on my MASON! That kid is a winner, no other words to describe the kid who scores 55 points to win a championship game! Hoping he'll do that again & get us a W for NC! Ellis will get his, but am skeptical he'll pout when the big boys tower over him. But, I'm optimistic he has learned to play over the footers with confidence! Now I go and pray!

@JayHawkFanToo izzo's teams always lose more than they should in my estimation, but no one wants to play them in the tourney. Unlike Self, Izzo believes there is such a thing as a good loss!

@HawksWin

The nature of the Tournament is such that any team can beat any other team; lets not forget that even traditionally good teams such a Duke get "Mercerized" often enough; KU is not alone in that regard.

The Big 12 has several teams including KU, OU, ISU, WVU, Baylor and even Texas and OSU that with good match-ups can make a deep run. The key is to have the right match-ups.

@JayHawkFanToo and no injuries, see KU and ISU.

@HighEliteMajor

I've sort of given up on seeing more development out of Cliff this year. It ain't gonna happen.

But how about what he currently has to offer? His stat line clearly shows him as the choice in the post.

What scares me now is rust. Guys that are so inexperienced and undeveloped (like Cliff) can rust up in a single half of sitting on the bench. He totally needs game minutes just to establish any kind of flow. And in March?

I see a guy like Cliff making Self mad in the first half of a game in March so he only plays 4 minutes. Then the second half comes along and Self turns to Cliff and he goes in and plays horrible. He's a guy that can rust quicker than paint can dry.

This is my biggest fear around Cliff from here on out. It's too late to see much development in him now. But that doesn't mean he can't be a vital part of this team moving forward.

Here's where I take one from the master:

[link text](

@HighEliteMajor

I think Jamari plays a key role moving forward... just not in the way Self uses him.

Jamari should be "energy off the bench."

Our other post player for most of the time moving forward should either be Cliff or be another guard. 4 out 1 in. But make that guard someone who can slash through the paint and score in the post. Or feed Perry in the paint to score. Or feed the ball back out for an uncontested 3.

I think Cliff's biggest down side right now is his passing. It's hard to make him a piece if he can't pass effectively. Obviously, his defense is totally hit or miss, too.

@Crimsonorblue22

...and Embiid. You are absolutely correct.

HEM, I think you were just 2 days off on the "title thread". February 23rd was the day the season died.