Just got an alert that Brannen was suspended for 6 games for conduct detrimental to the team. He won't be playing in Maui. When is this guy going to quit acting like a knucklehead? He's been suspended every year he's been here.
What?!?! Must be somewhat serious to justify six games.
@jessenewell It will all become clear once you read KUAC drug policy. 4th offense = 6 games.
Go Brannen!
I feel sorry for Greene. Watching the way KU plays wants me to do drugs. I couldn't imagine how it feels for Greene sitting on the bench watching.
Was the detrimental conduct him being the best 3-point shooter on our team?
No worries KU fans Greene only played 9 minutes last game. No biggie. HCBS wasn't going to use him anyways.
Anyone know what the penalty is for not throwing the ball to a post player?
@JRyman @DoubleDD @MoonwalkMafia
You guys are KILLIN!!!
Nothing good comes from these suspensions either. It's a distraction to the team, the team is now short 2 rotation players & important one's at that. How quickly the season has spiraled.
@VailHawk That's what I was thinking I figured he got into a fight or something but what @BeddieKU23 said makes sense. I know at least one of his other suspensions was for weed.
PHOF!!!!
Did someone else get suspended that I missed?
In contrast the starting Ohio St. QB gets arrested for drunk driving and misses one game.
@wissoxfan83 said:
In contrast the starting Ohio St. QB gets arrested for drunk driving and misses one game.
That also has to do with their HC. Gotta remember while at Florida he knew that Hernadez had a gun. Did little to nothing about it because he helped them win.
Old Urb doesn't care about their future just his own legacy.
My buddy said that over on Jayhawk slant one of the mods over there said it was for getting mouthy with Self over his PT
@wissoxfan83 First offense, compliant with police, blew a 0.09, not required any suspension, self-imposed, in addition to revocation of summer funding (i.e. can't go to school, doesn't receive stipend, and still can't work), etc. Not exactly a 1:1 comparison. Besides, Barrett didn't do anything that any of us didn't do in college. Completely overblown issue.
If Jesse Newell's speculation is true, this would be BG's fourth failed drug test. Not exactly the same thing, huh?
Some times i wonder if Self just doesn't like Brannen Greene. He punishes him on and off the court. Look at last game, he didn't even see 10 minutes of play time and didn't even have a shot attempt. The first game he never missed. I'm sure Izzo was tickled by Selfs coaching. Meanwhile Devonte gets 38 freaking minutes takes a pile of garbage shots and in the latest KU sports article talks about how he needs to be more aggressive and keep shooting. Never talks about making passes or creating offense for the team. Last year Self dissed his 3pt. shooters and now he sits Greene for 6 games. But hey maybe Svi will have a chance to make some shots, that is if these so called point guards will set them up. So sure suspend Greene 6 games, its not like he was going to be allowed to make an impact in games that matter anyways.
Svi can be heard dancing around in the hallway after hearing the Greene's suspension news. He's sayin I'm going to play I'm going to play.
Then Monday comes in Maui and Graham Selden & Mason combine for 120 minutes out of 120 minutes possible of playing time..
This actually makes HCBS's lack of playing Brannen more understandable. Self has always punished off the court issues w/ either suspensions, pine time or "how bout you transfer young man."
Skipping class and partying in season have to be at the top of Self's list of things not to do while on scholarship to play basketball at the 2nd winningest program in college basketball history!!! Soon to be first when UK has to vacate a season(s.)
The clear inferences here are three-fold:
a.) neural nets not yet grown together;
b.) Brannen lacks high seriousness about KU basketball; and
c.) he really must be one helluva shooter and prospect for Self to put up with this much shizzle.
Honestly at this point, I think Self just needs to completely cut ties with Greene and give him the boot. This is the third time he's been suspended at KU and whether it's a drug test or mouthing off to Self, this has gone past the point of being a mistake to being a pattern of poor decisions. Yes Greene is a great shooter, but at what point does his stupid crap like this become a net negative to KU? In my eyes, it's at that point now and I do believe KU would be better off in the long run by cutting ties with Greene.
I believe I found some practice footage from yesterday that involve Self and Greene getting into it.
I'm not saying Brannen is being treated harshly, I'm saying Barrett was let off lightly. I wish Brannen would grow up.
I would imagine that Bill Self has never been more frustrated or disgusted with collegiate basketball. Recruiting nightmares, eligibility nightmares, behavior nightmares, key injuries at crucial moments. What next? Another assistant gets arrested? Snowballing criticism of fan base churns into canon shot?
All very true statements! Just think of how great he could be if he stopped acting like a hot dog and removed his cranium from his anus!
I guess its hard for me to blindly back Self on this one without knowing exactly what happened. If it was for drugs/alcohol then its justified. If its for getting mouthy with Self over playing time or the way the MSU game was handled then maybe not. Even though it isn't proper for a player to question his coach, especially in front of the team, he might actually be right and his emotions justified. I can easily imagine him being upset after the game over how the went and he would only need to spend 5 minutes reading the reactions on this message board after the loss and it could have been enough to put him over the top. So maybe its possible that we are indirectly responsible?????
Just joking, but not really.
@wissoxfan83 and I'm saying Barrett's punishment more than fit the crime seeing as how, by university and NCAA bylaws, OSU wasn't required to do anything yet they suspended him and negated the summer semester for him.
@globaljaybird man I tell ya no respect people. No respect.
Ok, I've got to break my self-imposed hiatus from posting since last game for this. I've been trying to take in all of the comments and insights. A kind of absorption period.
Anyway, I really wonder what this is all about. Frankly, I don't care. This demonstrates that he is unreliable. Six games is a big suspension.
If he got mouthy with Self over playing time, as @RockkChalkk referenced, I still don't care. A player may be right, but a player is a player. The coach is the coach. And it's not like Greene should be surprised by his marginalization. The whole world knows the deal here.
I agree with @Texas-Hawk-10. I would consider cutting bait right now. Maybe the suspension is a nudge to see if Greene will make the decision.
I hold to my belief that this (Kansas) was a real bad fit for Greene. His skill set (three point shooting) is not appreciated here. His key attribute is a running joke really with our coach. He can't play above average defense, can't drive to the hoop, and doesn't do much else to the level Self prefers. And that's what really matters if a kid is going to be a big time player here. Do what Self wants. As I suggested back in the spring, he should have transferred. Maybe he transfers at the break. With that, if he sits out all of next season, he could have a full season left. If he wanted to play next season, he'd only have a semester left.
I don't know, but I see that AW3 scored 18 points the other night vs. Villanova (his third straight game with 18 points). But he couldn't cut it here. A guy in the top 50.
It is what it is.
All that being said, if I was constructing KU's starting lineup, Greene would be the starting 3. He'd be a big focus of our offensive efforts. And if teams tried to stop him, we'd scheme to score off those overplays.
I think there are a lot of folks around the game that feel the same way. But, alas, we are dealing with a one track mind at AFH.
@HighEliteMajor Your second and third paragraphs disagree with your last two. Greene was slow against MSU, SLOW. OSU runs an entire offense trying to get Forte open. Forte has twice the speed and Handles as Greene.
@wrwlumpy Are you saying because I support the suspension, it contradicts with him being my starting three? I'm sorry, my small brain doesn't understand the contradiction you are referring to between the paragraphs. Please clarify if you could.
And as an fyi, you can easily create shooting opportunities for guys (even slow ones) with certain plays and screens. How many ball screens did we set for Greene Tuesday, for example, when he had the ball? I don't know. I've boycotted rewatching that game until tonight. Letting blood pressure lower.
A little two man game with a guy like Ellis setting the ball screen would seem just the medicine -- at least a handful of times a game. You might get two clean looks out of that. If they switch, you might get a look or two with Ellis to the hoop.
And OSU's offense is not just trying to get Forte open. It is an element of the offense. Sometimes he is a sheer decoy. But I'm not a fan of running guys around like that at all, like they do with Forte at times. How OSU uses Forte, though, has no bearing on creating open looks for Greene.
@VailHawk I believe my words, when I saw the headline on B/R were," What The Eff!?"
BG had to do something serious to get 6 games. Cheating on a test, jawing back at a coach, fighting. Anything else would have been a 1-2 game smack. 6 games is a big hit. Kid better keep his head on straight from now on.
We need BG on the court dropping treys!
I think we should use BG like OSU uses Forte... get him out there and send him running. BG isn't ever going to rack up more than 20 mpg.... he should go out there and expend himself against defense that is already tired. Even if he doesn't hit 3s, in the least he can waste out the SG or SF guarding him.
That would be a case where stats don't show the contribution of a player. Of course I would love to see BG go out every game and go 6-for-6. But if he just goes 2-for-2 but wears out a guy or two on the other side, that is helpful, too.
That is a big part of what Forte does. He is one of the best conditioned players in our league. They still run him until he is spent. So in the least, they get him to "take out" someone on the other team, and hopefully nail a few 3s in the process.
I just don't agree with Self or about any coach in D1 that has depth. If I had depth, I would use it every game. My guys would be trained to run, run, run. Set picks.... and run. Wear down opponents. Start in the first half. I want to see the other team with hands on knees half way through the first half. I would run offense geared towards wearing teams down. Lots of picks and constant motion... something we never do now! We never take advantage of our depth. The only good we get out of our depth is to have a backup if someone gets hurt.
@HighEliteMajor I hope I am wrong, but this could very well be the beginning of the end for BG here. Whatever the reason (and the drug test thing would seem to make the most sense), it seems like in these situations (lack of playing time, suspensions) you often see a player depart. The timing would be bad for him, however.
I think you are right... a bad fit here..........whether we like or agree with it or not.
Top 50 players don't want to sit bench. Especially come junior year. Don't have a clue what the issue is.
@KansasComet The Beddie post at the top references the KUAD drug policy...would seem to tie in.
You are absolutely correct about top 50 prospects and the bench.
So was BG with Snacks at the time of the infraction?
Not drugs
@Jesse-Newell then what?
Kind of disappointed to hear it wasn't weed. That seemed the most banal of explanations other than missing study hall or skipping class.
Come on Jesse!!! First you shut down the best in game blog ever and now you tease us with this!!!
Please give is something!!!
@Jesse-Newell Waitin on you big guy - you let the genie out...give it up.
I'm curious what your take is on our slow recruiting start. Are we doomed? Is there an embargo?
Why aren't the luxury Playboy Mansion apartment suites making elite recruits line up to sign with Kansas?
Why didn't we sign an elite big for next year? Or... do you think we already have a silent verbal out there for spring signing? Just a few elite bigs left....
Why can't we sign more elite players in the fall?
Is there any hope for our offense coming around?
We all know the statement:
"Offense wins games, but defense wins championships."
However... no team has won a championship without scoring points. That last time I checked, points win both games and championships.
This seems a little knee jerk to me.
Father explains Greene’s 6-game suspension due to playing-time dispute ↗.
My bet is he gets reinstated when they return from 808.
I have been critical of BG in the past & had to remember he's still a kid. Still immature, but see why BG blew up. He played with injury last season - perhaps trying to prove to Self that he's tough as Self likes it. His injury was no twisted ankle, but he sucked it up & clenched his teeth thru rehab for the past 5+ months. (10-12 mos for a full recovery?) In BG's mind, he delivered what Self wanted from him - patience & toughness. Think a 21 yr old expecting a reward for what he went through & overcame - only to find himself warming the bench against MSU. As I said, I've been critical of BG, but if I were him, I'd be thinking transfer, a coach that wants his talent & can maximize it. I don't play basketball so this is all speculation on my end but Self wants BG to drop 3s at his command. Now I play golf & without the warm ups my swing is dangerous, and don't get into the rytheme until after a few holes. Pros warm up for hours before the first tee. If Self wants BG's 3s, Self gonna have to figure out how to keep him in the game longer than plugging him in/out for 3 mins - despite his D. It's hard to watch our 3-pt (parameter?) players develop under Self. His winning percentage comes with human cost.
Hey HCBS I'm bitching about Mister BG's Playing time too. Eight Minutes against MSU? What am I banned from watching the next six games KU plays?
@Hawk8086 I only said playing time because that's all I am able to see for myself. It appears I was in the ballpark. As for me, I like players that want to play. When Brannen gets on a roll, he can knock down shots and provide momentum swings. Sometimes players just need to see the ball go in the basket. It can get the entire team fired up. A lot of the really good players that we have had, did not always see eye to eye with Coach Self. I am sure this thing will work itself out (no pun intended).
@Texas-Hawk-10 I would agree and do agree, & if he wasn't a Junior I would just think he would transfer out, but it would or probably will if it comes to that Coach Self just cutting him out. You are exactly right I talked with several others and all said there are a lot of other coaches if Greene had his 3 suspensions there- - - -he would be out.He has some issues, & I''say this again he doesn't get it, he doesn't grasp the concept that not only is he hurting himself but he is also hurting his team mates. He is letting them down. But you have a few that think it's time for Coach Self to go roflmfao, these type of guys, - - - - -dam where do you start? Unbelievable, huh DD? You have people who feel that Coach should let the players run the team ya, Ok lets see how that's working for ya. You allow 1 player to let his mouth over load his ass and do, say nothing whining about playing time, then you'll have another, then another, then another ya, he definitely has some issues with authority, and like has been said he is a good play NOT GREAT PLAYER but a really good player but unfortunetly has to make some really bad decisions, either way we will be fine with or with our Brannen Greene. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@HawkInMizery HA, you think he can remove it? I dunno he has it buried pretty deep just hope he can still breathe. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@HighEliteMajor I AGREE, and there within lays a huge part of the problem, this kid can't even come close to playing average defense, and when he does his specality, hitting a three he is to busy trying to show up the other players/team main while back at the ranch his man he is surpose to be guarding and let me emphasize surpose to be is making a killing scoring at will on the other end. You don't wanna play D your ass is on the bench, instead of being a hot dog, kinda like Curtis Reading use to act like at K-State when he played for them, you see what happened with him OUT, GONE, CYA, BYE BYE ended up at St Johns you wanna play? then play? you wanna make idiot decisions, get stupid, let your brothers on the team down? then move on we will be all right
My sympathies are with BG. The kid deserves to play and Self was WRONG in giving him only 8 minutes. Again, same old Self. Rigid. Inflexible. Its about time that players question continued poor decisions from the HC.
The kid's a junior now, still has the maturity level of a gnat. He and family should have realized long before now that Brannen's game is just not cut out for a Bill Self system. Fabulous free throw and 3 pt. shooter, but not much else. A bundle of Division 1 coaches would probably gear an entire offense to Brannen's strengths. Not gonna happen under Bill Self at Kansas. Returning this season was a Greene family mistake. Two years of remaining eligibility at a totally different program might have led to super stardom for Brannen. Now his future looks more dismal. If he transfers he will have only one year of play elsewhere, after sitting a year. His sideline blow-up helps explain the collapse vs. MSU. Bill Self livid and distracted; teammates jolted with doubts.
I have gotten a kick out of his demeanor, but this is an ugly twist. A gifted player, but a poor fit at KU. Why drag this out for another year and a half?
How long and contentious of a tirade must it have been for his parents to be summoned from the stands?
If it were fleeting comments made in the heat of the moment that wouldn't have happened.
Bad that his mom and dad had to bear witness to it, but kudos to His Dad For handling it the way he has......whether it was said tongue in cheek or not, he basically said if BG had handled it correctly and had kept his mouth shut he'd be in Maui right now.
We have no idea what transpired during the previous meetings or conversations between Greene and Self. How many times have we heard the sideline reporters or whomever is calling the game take 10-15 seconds and report to the viewers that Self describes Greene as the best pure shooter he has ever coached? Riddle me this... how is best pure shooter Self has ever coached struggle to see the court?
My biggest issue with Greene is his that he does not follow and react to people's hips and just lets guards dribble right by him. That said, I still prefer him to Wayne Selden because he gives us rebounding and a more reliable trey. Now, maybe Wayne has more "leadership" qualities like being a nice guy, but given the lack of progression by both players, I would rather see Greene on the floor more than Wayne. Put Greene, Vick and Graham as the 3 guards, and I think you have an excellent rotation option as Vick and Greene can balance each other on both ends of the floor.
As far as Self goes, I'm really worried. Last year, I was impressed with how much we bounced back during the regular season, and I attribute that to Self. But we may actually get worse this season without Diallo, despite Ellis looking much quicker. (People are underestimating the impact that Oubre had on this team as a two way threat.)
I disagree with Jessie Newell on the 3 point shooting aspect. The real issue is the apparent lack of freedom with which we play when confronted with something new. We pass around the perimeter on defense and drive right into charges or blocks on offense. The threat of the pass, steal or block are minimal. We look boring and unable to improvise.
@wissoxfan83 I don't know exactly but I have an idea. I still blame the coach. The kid deserves to play. He is doing a disservice to KU BB program by his adamant nature. Not letting him go to Maui is a significant penalty, totally unjustified. Greene's parents should take the matter with the authorities. Its time for Self to go.
There is a way to go about talking about playing time.
Go into his office, have a personal discussion on what needs to happen to get more playing time. Openly disrespecting the coach in front of players means lack a maturity.
I assume most of you read the book about past players and what they said about their time at KU under Self. Players were open and honest about what went on. Self is not a stranger to managing personalities.
A message had to be sent that HE is the one that manages PT. Be an adult about it. I am all for Self's suspension.
@JhawkAlum Coach Self does manage playing time and I think he's screwing it up. Now more than ever, I attribute our big losses exclusively to him. He recruits players, coaches them up or not, and dictates style of play, and adjusts personnel / strategy to onging developments.
Last years loss to Kenucky was embarrassing, but they were a most talented team with summer playing (like we had this year). This years loss to MSU despite MSU's ranking is unacceptable. I personally think Coach negligently did not adjust personnel and strategy to close that game. He kept the horses in that weren't getting the job done. BG frustrated, Hunter M most likely frustrated, and as a fan, I'm frustrated. Seldon' has played sub-par most of his career here and yet seems immune to accountability.
I actually thought BG played decent in the last game. It seemed like his defense had shown some improvement. I'm not saying it was necessarily good defense, but it looked better. At least he is working on it.
@RockkChalkk agreed. He's looked more active.
@JhawkAlum don't disagree depending on what happened, which I don't know. But it IS STILL on Coach Self that he's creating an atmosphere and team dynamic that pushes players who should be playing to distraction with his irrational approach. Sure the players behavior may dictate the discipline, but when you, as the coach, have gotten to that point with players in the locker room that it comes to having to discipline like this, you've lost the war even though as Coach/Leader, you'll always win the battle because you have all the power.
@HighEliteMajor perfecty laid out the argument against Self's mis-aligned basketball paradigm in his most recent posting.
Go back and watch the game. When Greene goes out of the game at 5:56 left in 2nd half he jaws at the coaches while seated. They all seemed to ignore him at the time. Obviously this carried over into the locker room. You just can't do this as a player. Having said that if I was a shooter who wasn't the greatest athlete I would opt not to play for Bill Self. He is fine with having a great defender hurt the teams offensive chemistry but would never allow a bad defender to play through. Shooters need more time than he gives to get into the rhythm of the game.
I'm not in the fire Bill Self camp, not even close. I just wish he gave shooters on the team more leash.
For how long can we continue with this frustration, game after game, season after season, its getting sickening.
The book has been written on Self and the chapters cannot be erased. Time to move on.
Why would anyone want Greene gone? I understand the emotion of the loss, the emotion of his suspension but lobbying for him gone, jeez holds your horses guys. If Self thought what transpired deserved being kicked off the team it would have happened. 6 games sends a message especially when you miss the trip to Maui and you miss the opportunities to play better, get better.
Do I think 6 games is too much, maybe but it certainly gives him the final chance to learn from his mistakes. I certainly believe he had a legitimate gripe about his playing time but emotion of the situation got the best of both of them. Neither of them was going to rationally argue about playing time right after that loss. It would have been better had it not happened then, Greene probably avoids a suspension all together.
I've been guilty of jumping off the ledge way too fast in the past but we should all be hoping Greene truly learns from this mistake. We really do need him, you can't replace the shooting he brings and no matter your opinion of him I'd rather have him than not, it would be a huge loss to this team if he doesn't stick it out, doesn't learn from his mistakes. Jamari has been suspended every year here as well, its not like he is a lone in having to learn. Sometimes kids are just thickheaded and have to learn through continuous punishment. We shouldn't give up just yet.
At least Greene kept it in house and didn't take it to the media after the MSU loss like the RB from OSU did.
@BeddieKU23 We've all been hard on Coach Self for not giving BG enough freedom to play and help KU win games. We've been hard on him for playing Traylor and Lucas, who are not as good, over Bragg and Mick.
Under the current circumstances maybe we should lighten up towards Coach Self. He has been upset with the Diallo situation and quite possibly that has affected his judgement for making in game adjustments and letting his guys play like they did in July. Maybe all this extra stress with the Diallo situation has made it harder than we realize for Coach Self to be his best also.
I expect Diallo to be cleared any freekin time now. If he isnt cleared monday before the game then I expect KU might play him anyways. They have a S***load of ammo to bring to bear against the NCAA. Major actionable case type stuff.
Maybe once Diallo is cleared. Coach will have the rebounder he needs, therefore opening up the floor for Bragg and Mick to do what they do. There is no evidence to support playing Traylor and Lucas over Mickelson and Bragg except on the rebounding areas. That gets fixed, I think Traylor and Lucas will play less.
This is certainly a stressful time for coach. I'm sure all of this has been a nightmare to deal with. I just thought us fans would stick behind our players instead of pushing them away. If Greene sticks it out and turns it around its going to be to our benefit as fans and for the team.
I understand Greene has done stupid stuff and we all have our opinions of his play and his character. If 6 games doesn't hit home then I'll believe he should be gone.
If I was told when Roy abbandoned KU for UNC that KU would be able to hire a coach that would allow the team to finish top 2 in the Big 12 every year, would make the Jayhawks a top 15 team every year, and would win a National Championship (or more). I wouldn't turn him away.
Which coach that KU could have hired in that time frame that could've done the same or more?
Bill has his warts, but who doesn't? Coach K is the best coach in America, but I don't want him. Coach Cal is the best recruiter in America, but I don't want him either. I feel that Bill represents the University as well as anyone can.
I wish I spent as much time in practice watching the team play as many of the posters on this site do. It's quite clear they have a better feel for how playing time should be dispensed than the coach.
I too am disappointed by less than perfection, but I realize that it is college kids trying to execute a plan drawn out by one of the 50 best coaches in the world. I too have college interns that I must train every summer for help. It sucks. Kids don't want to work. They aren't prepared to work. And their parents will usually enable them to be worthless. It takes me all year to whip them into shape and then the most promising ones don't come back (dang OADs) but you've got to take the help you can recruit and run with it.
@BeddieKU23 I think you missed that @AsadZ want's Self gone, not Greene.
@dylans I don't buy the practice thing...last couple years I was fine taking the "let's enjoy the process" line when we were very, very young. This year, Self doesn't get that level of room to operate. We're experienced, we're talented, and we got a Summer to get a jump start on the rest of the college bball world.
It was squandered against a depleted MSU team and the things we thought Self learned this Summer are no where to be seen. What we do see is the same type of decion-making that has been our archilles heel year in - year out.
Yes, one game, but him tinkering within his system, making what is evidently poor player personnel and scheme decisions made this one loss decisive. No free pass this year.
I totally understand the KU has a bunch of spoiled fans sentiment.
One loss...I wonder what MSU message boards sounded like last year after they lost to KU at home?
@dylans Tom Izzo was very much interested in the KU job in 2003 and was the second choice had Self decided to stay at Illinois. Given his track record, I don't think many people would've minded him patrolling the sideline in AFH. KU was and still is a program that will attract the elite of the elite coaching prospects because KU is a top 5 job in the country.
As for MSU fans reactions to losing to KU in ORLANDO last year, they weren't freaking out because Izzo regularly loses some early season contests and his teams get better from those losses. That's been Izzo's history for 20 years so when it happens, it's not a big deal.
As for why people are mad about KU losing to MSU, it has nothing to do with MSU. They're a top 15 team and will be very good again this year. People are mad because Self said he learned a lot from the WUG, but he hasn't changed at all and the biggest culprits in that loss are the same issues KU has had for the past 2 years that lead to first weekend losses on the NCAA tournament.
When someone says they've learned to adapt to a new style, but when they're feet are put to the fire and revert back to their old ways, people are going to feel mad about being fed a load of crap and buying into Self's statements of change.
Its not just about one game. Its about how things have been going on for the past 2 plus years. Its about not playing your best players. Its about punishing deserving players from getting PT. Its about continuing to force players to play in a way that is against their strengths. Its about my way or the highway attitude. Its about continued early losses in the tourney. Its about recruiting failures. The list goes on.
A sad Z😩
I'm not saying this is Self... but I've been wondering if some coaches have become extremely envious of their own players.
Think about it for a second...
Andrew Wiggins is just a kid. He has only been out in the "real world" for 18 months and he is probably worth 5-10 times more money than the very best D1 coach makes and has saved.
Egos are a huge part of any sports.
Just makes me wonder.
@drgnslayr maybe fans
Crimson Yes, I am feeling sad especially for Greene
@dylans Thanks man, maybe, just maybe AsadZ was in Chicago hitting that same blunt, man some people adios AsadZ they can use people like you down in Cowtown, good luck in postseason any kind of post season, that statement of getting rifd of self is about like me saying I'm going to be the next president
@BeddieKU23 six games is NOT to much. This is Greene 3rd time in 3 years if he were on a lot of other teams his butt would be OUT. he needs to learn how to grow the hell up, quite throwing tantrums and acting like a junior high JV player instead of trying to be mature and be part of this team. Everytime he acts out and pulls a bone head move skipping class, late for practices, talking smack to the coach. There is a way to go about your frustration & it is sure not out on the floor during the game OR in the locker room in front of your team mates that your pretty much calling out saying your better then they are. You take it to the office with Coach and talk one on one not on the floor. What did he really think he was going to accomplish by doing this during the game? Maybe coach saying OH OK Greene your right my bad go ahead go back and check in, Hell trade me clothes give me your uniform I'll play and you coach YA ok how's that working for ya holy crap
@Texas-Hawk-10 Is part of adapting to a new style, help me out- - -it the so called new style now is that part of that new style where you guards your pint and your 2 is that include where they drive wild and blind down the lane, over penetrate nad have no where to go where the result is a blocked shot a turnover or a wild fling up over there head? OR is it where they can throw it out and let our guys clang another 3pt shot attempt up off the rim, OR is a part of this new style a former two guard moved to the three and he is now an Animal on the backboards just terrorizing the opponents from his rebounding? Help me out clear it up so I can appreciate this new system- - this new style that's surpose to be such a devastating offense
My wish is (not bashing HCBS) that in the future HCBS will stay away from recruiting sharp shooting 3 point shooting assassins like Greene/White. He doesn't use them and doesn't value their craft. It would save me a lot of heart ache.
Why recruit players like White, Greene, Svi, CF, Galindo if we aren't going to use their talents. KU needs to focus their recruiting efforts on players that actually fit the system. Stop going after the cream of the crop because they're the best and instead get guys that are the best high low ballers. The Big12 football coaches don't recruit smash mouth players because the Big12 is an air it out conference. So why does KUMBB go after three ballers when it's fools gold?!? Next time I beg that Self passes on that highly touted sharp shooter and saves us the misery of watching them ride the pine.
@Kip_McSmithers remember it works both ways, the players know selfs system when they sign. We had some pretty good wings, but then again I don't think coach dislikes the 3.
To be fair HCBS said himself that shooting the 3 is fools gold. I wonder how Greene/White/Conner felt when they heard that?
@AsadZ We don't know what went on with Greene, so we can't really judge whether 6 games is fair or not.
What if Greene was screaming, threatening, throwing things, swearing at the coach? We don't know.
As others have pointed out, it must have been pretty bad for his parents to be involved.
You are entitled to your opinion (that's what this site is for) and I feel your pain on the early exits.....I do.
But, don't you think Self's track record, overall, is awfully good, to be wanting another coach?
At least see what this team does in the tournament?
@DoubleDD said:
To be fair HCBS said himself that shooting the 3 is fools gold. I wonder how Greene/White/Conner felt when they heard that?
Only Greene was a part of the KU roster when Self said this last February. AW3 was in Lincoln for over a semester and CF was already at WSU for a little over a month.
Just sayin it only affected one of those three. I'm sure Greene, Selden, Mason and Svi were all a little taken back by it as they were hitting this shots and to a point so was Perry
@Hawk8086 I agree that Self has been a great coach. He has won a lot of games although I do believe that he has benefited from playing mostly in AFH where home crowd is a big X factor that has helped his winning %.
I do not dislike him. Actually I like him a lot. I used to show his work to my children as an inspiration. What I am trying to point out is that over the last 2-3 years things have not been the same. Losses are increasing. We are exiting the tourney early to inferior teams. Recruiting misses are increasing and what's most frustrating is how Self is continuing to mismanage the talent. He has talent in the team. The team has experience. But he continues to force his philosophy on the players that is working against their talent. Why recruit players like AW3, Greene, CF when you don't use their arsenal and send wrong message to them by using comments like Fools Gold. I am sure you can understand what I am saying here. He continues to put a square peg through a round hole. The other issue with Self is that he is not good at coaching during the games. He is either not capable or refuses to make changes during the game based on the situation at hand. As such he is getting outcoached more & more. He refuses to learn from his mistakes. After the WUG he made a comment to the effect that I learned a lot here, and I was really encouraged that he will make some changes to his style. But so far it has been the same old Self.
In summary while he has a great track record at KU the recent body of work is on the wrong track and I believe that he is losing the edge, and don't forget that he gets paid a lot of money.
Is it unfair to ask for accountability?
@Crimsonorblue22 said ".... but then again I don’t think coach dislikes the 3."
Parsing words.
How about "disdain" instead of "dislike"?
Disdain: the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect; contempt.
That's the right word.
@HighEliteMajor as I said, I, meaning me, do not think coach dislikes the 3. You use your own words for your own thoughts.
@Crimsonorblue22 Well, whether you like it or not, or disdain it or not, if I think your words might be wrong, I might decide to reply.
That is unless you, like coach Self, are beyond reproach.
And, as usual, only sniping and cute little responses vs. substance. But to each their own.
@Crimsonorblue22 Yea it does work both ways but Self and Co offer the scholarships to these kids that don't fit in to his preferred system. If they didn't target square pegs and then offer them the scholarships there wouldn't be one to accept. And you're right, Greene and White should have known better but the effects of KU offering you a scholarship has to cloud your judgement ;)
@Kip_McSmithers This isn't just directed to you, but I've seen similar posts from several other people where the premise is that these very good shooters should not have chosen KU and its in part their fault that they aren't getting the playing time they want. Wasn't Bmac a similar mold to these guys? Wasn't he the man when Greene chose KU? I don't fault the recruits at all. Not to mention we have no clue what line they were fed by the recruiters. Its very reasonable to think that Greene could have been told his game is similar to Ben's and led him to believe that they would use him in the same way.
I don't understand how the offense ran so well for Bmac by getting him always involved in the offense but now we don't come anywhere close to doing the same for even better shooters (according to Self). Mystifying.
@HighEliteMajor yes, I am beyond reproach!
@AsadZ Accountability is fine. But this year's recruiting class is not complete. Last year's was good with Bragg and Vick. We won another conference title last year. Maybe we will again this year. Maybe we will go to the final four this year. Or...maybe not on both.
Let's let it play out.
We were in the final four in 2012 and missed the last 3
I just don't think that is anywhere close to calling for a new coach.
In real life, the only new coach who could possibly be better than Self is an improved Self.
@HighEliteMajor and others are not calling for another coach, they're suggesting adjustments to improve the current one.
During the recent gale of criticism, I have been piling on a little, but I am such a featherweight that no one felt a thing.
There are some things I don't understand, mainly "Fool's Gold" and "Energy". Usually when I don't understand someone's behavior, either I don't have all the information or I don't fully understand that person's motivation.
Maybe Self believes in the Big 12 more than he believes in the NCAA? Maybe he just doesn't care as much anymore about a tournament that enriches such an organization.
Personally, I wish we could find another end of year tournament to play in.
@Hawk8086 I am on board with that and lets see how things turn out over the course of this year. Personally I will be Ok if we don't win the Big 12 as long as we have a deep run in the tourney although getting both will be really fun. And I hope that we get to see an improved version of Bill Self in the areas I have been advocating here.
I hope we don't lose Self...
But if we did, the only guy I see coming in (at this moment) is Danny Manning. He has been cutting his teeth for a little while now. We know he can develop players, especially big guys. We could regain the title "Big Man U."
Mark Turgeon is building some steam, too.... I just don't see him as being as popular as Danny.
I agree with you. Coach Self's comment need to be taken in context. The famous...or should I day Infamous comment about the 3 being fool's gold was made referring more to "depending" on the 3 rather than using it, and he is right, the 3 can vary quite a bit from game to game where the more conventional inside scoring tends to be more even and reliable. Unfortunately, some will take comments out of context to fit their narrative, nothing really new there...standard fare in our daily lives and politicians and pundits make a living doing it.
E. Elliot the RB from tOSU calls out Urban and Co in the national media and gets zero games on the pine. BG does it behind closed doors and gets slapped with SIX. Legit.
@Kip_McSmithers wasn't behind closed doors, started jawing on the bench. Plus he's had a few other problems w/discipline
I don't think it was that out there. If it was then why was there any speculation on the why of his suspension? I know it started on the bench and then the locker room but he wasn't mic'ed up for it. Do you know what BG said exactly? Anyone that hasn't been under a rock the last two days knows what Elliott said.
@Kip_McSmithers said:
E. Elliot the RB from tOSU calls out Urban and Co in the national media and gets zero games on the pine. BG does it behind closed doors and gets slapped with SIX. Legit.
I said this in another thread but it is worth repeating about Urban Meyers. He never suspended Hernandez at Florida even though he knew he was carrying a gun around. Look where that got Hernandez?
Urban isn't about the players, or their growth as young men. He in it for his legacy and bonus checks for winning.
@JRyman Ok, yet again, JT Barret blew a 0.09, was compliant with police, it's his first offense, it's a misdemeanor, etc. OSU was not required to suspend him due to university or NCAA policy yet they did anyways. On top of his suspension they took away the summer semester for him (i.e. doesn't receive his stipend and still can't work because of NCAA rules, nor can he take any classes, which puts him behind to graduate).
Stop acting like Barrett didn't receive any punishment, and stop acting like JT is the second coming of a guy that is in jail for murder because he did something that each and every one of us did in college.
@MoonwalkMafia ok what did I say about Barret? My comment was about Elliot their RB who spoke out against his coaches and the play calling to the press after their loss to Michigan state Saturday night. (Which is what is rumored BG did sans the media)
That's what I was referencing and how Urban Meyer let's his stars go Scott free like he did in Florida. Hernandez is the biggest of those names, but you could also look into the Pouncey brothers why they were at Florida. It was all clouded up by the ever popular golden boy Tim Tebow.
Urban wants to win and will do it at the cost of society and not his players.
@JRyman Ok, but yet again, Elliott lobbying for more carries is not the same as Aaron Hernandez (a convicted murderer) getting caught with a gun... I mean, you have to know that, right?
Elliott has 2 mores games left at OSU. Brannen Greene got suspended because he's a repeat offender. Elliott has been a model player and said something in the heat of the moment (which he was right about). Brannen Green and Ezekiel Elliott are not quite the same, wouldn't you say? Urban Meyer has suspended every player for offenses that warranted a suspension. These offenses are not quite the same.
As a side not, I wonder if Self would've suspended Greene if KU were heading into the last/second to last game of the season.
Going to a tourney with seeding biased for eyeballs, as Bary Hinson said, and apparently biased by Refs appearing to use no calls and phantom calls to manage some spreads and maybe some outcomes is like trying to win your girl a birthday present at a crooked carnival with a barker that doesnt like you.
@MoonwalkMafia ok I'll give that comparing Jernadez and Elkiot are a far cry from each other. Yet Jernandez was never suspended while at Florida. So that dismisses your argument that good ole Urb suspends players when they deserved it.
Urb actually covered it up at Florida so Hernandez wouldn't be expelled. This has been mentioned by more than one ex player and U of Florida students.
As for Elliot going live after his coaches to the masses in my opinion, just mine, is more selfish than what Greene did at practice.
Is Greene a repeat offender for calling his coaches out? Or for just being a head case?
Both Elliot and Greene are hyper competitive athletes and that causes these issues about carries and playing time. Are they both deserving? Probably. Did they go about it the right ways? No.
Just because the .09 BAL(Blood Alcohol Level) isn't against the university or team rules per the letter of their law it is against the law in all 50 States. Sometimes leaders, be it coaches or bosses need to step in and help young people understand that their actions have consequences. He could have easily killed someone at that BAL with delayed reactions. Then what???
@JRyman Ok, he passed the sobriety test, so let's not act like he was falling over. And like I already pointed out, Barrett received a proper punishment, in my opinion. As someone who's gone to summer school every year in college, getting the summer taken away from me would be devastating. It puts you behind on graduating by 9-12 credits. So again, in my opinion, the Barrett case is shut.
@MoonwalkMafia it is shut. But as someone who has spent a lot of time on the roads. City, highways and interstates .09 is dangerous behind the wheel of a 2 ton vehicle.
I have known guys personally and spoken with many state patrolmen that have blown or seen someone blow over twice the legal limit and yet passed the field sobriety test. Flawlessly.
Am I flawless in my driving after a few? No. So I will step down from the pulpit on this and let it go.
Jus saying Urban Meyers picks and chooses who he suspends and when.
Are you down playing drunken driving? I can guess you have never had someone taken from you by an intoxicated driver. And your casual ways about it also make me think you drive under the influence. Barrett is only 20 years old. Legal drinking age is 21 last time I checked. Urban went easy on him like JRyman said. Brady Morningstar was 36 when he got his DUI at KU. He missed more than a game. That's a punishment that fits the crime.
And the whole taking the summer semester from him! Oh no! He's a red shirt sophomore which means he can declare for the draft if he's stock is high enough. C Jones is going to declare and Barrett beat him out so what's to stop his people from hyping him in to declaring and forgoing his last two years?
@Kip_McSmithers 1) JT Barrett is not going early in the draft. 2) Basketball has almost four times as many games as football 3) Brady Morningstar was twice over the legal limit, tried to bribe the cop, and was not cooperative; are you kidding me with this? 4) I'm not downplaying drunk driving. I'm saying he passed the sobriety test and was hardly over the legal limit (the video of it is all over the internet. Go watch it.). So don't act like he was falling over. And I'm realistic enough to know that every single one of us (without exception) drank underage in college. So it seems beyond hypocritical to act like the kid deserves to be crucified for this.
Brady Morningstar was twice over the legal limit, etc.
Another thing about the Brady case is that Boot Camp had just disbanded and Self had lectured the team about toeing the line after the fights with the football team. Brady picked exactly the right time to get the book thrown at him.
0.08, 0.09, or 0.16. Over the legal limit is over the legal limit. Be it double or by a 0.01. Intoxicated is intoxicated. It's against the law. Can't argue that fact. Did his passing of the sobriety test change the fact that he was still breaking the law?
40 games in basketball if you make it to the final game of your conference tournament and the NCAA finals. Brady missed 9. KU played 36 that season. He missed a fourth of the games.
Ohio State can play a total of 15 games. 12 reg season. One conf championship. Two in the playoffs. Barrett will have missed 1/13, 1/14, or 1/15. But it's ok because he's a kid. And kids are invincible. And he didn't kill an innocent bystander, this time. And he can't get into an accident because it was only 0.01 over the legal limit.
I watched several sports shows and many analysts seem to think that if he is indeed gone after the season, i.e. will get drafted, the he might not see the field again this season. Having said that, Meyer was very casual about Elliot and said that maybe he should have gotten more touches...if he needs him to win games he will play him; unlike other coaches Meyer is, like you said, all about his own record.
@AsadZ Nope. Cannot have players questioning the coach. Doesn't work in high school, nor college, nor the NBA, nor the NFL. Rethink your statement please. You don't see practice, you don't see the blow-by's defensively (see gamefilm) --you had to have missed those facts to post what you did.
Again: cannot question the coach publicly at any level, regardless if right or wrong. Cannot use end justification, as you are trying to do, either.
Greene is wrong.
The tirade Greene went on in the locker room was him proclaiming "I'm the best player on the floor!" in front of teammates and coach. Ugly scene. Any parent who walks in and sees their son blasting his own team and coach, would then understand Self's reaction.
If parents side with their son even after witnessing his tirade, then they need to have him transfer schools...*
@AsadZ Man, just STOP. Listen to yourself: "totally justified", "time for Self to go..." Oh, really?! So you would pick a Junior guard who is almost incapable of playing D, OVER the coach that built the program his way, with his recruits, and he merely expects those players to run and execute his playstyle...but has no right to be frustrated with a junior guard that still doesn't get the big picture? This isn't Roy Williams, this isn't Larry Brown, this isn't Ted Owens.
It is however, a future Hall of Famer coach.
Did you watch the Chaminade and UCLA games? Methinks the playstyle has indeed evolved from last year. It also seems the myriad of mistakes we made vs MichSt were corrected...right?
Let me tell you where YOU sit... If you are a fan of KU, then you are almost guaranteed that your team will make March Madness. And IF the team comes together, they have a chance of actually getting farther than the 2nd round, right? So what the hell would you do if you see some kid trying to disrupt that very chemistry after a tough loss??? Self is trying desperately to not let Brannen Greene turn into a locker room cancer.
@ralster I have pointed out the issues as I see them with Self. I have acknowledged that he has been a great coach and HOF caliber but his issues over the last few years are crystal clear, can't hide the facts, and I can understand that truth hurts.
You may not like it. That's OK. But I will continue to demand for improvement and accountability from Self.
You label BG demanding PT as disturbing team chemistry and a locker room cancer. I don't view these in a similar fashion. He has all right to ask for more PT. I agree that the situation could have gotten messy in the locker room but 6 game suspension is too much, simply Cruel. The kid could not play in Korea due to injury and now the coach took away once in a life time experience of playing in Maui away from him. Very Harsh treatment.
Obviously we disagree on this too.
He certainly has the right to express his opinions and feelings with the coaching staff......just pick the correct forum in which to express them.
It began On the sideline during the game and spilled into the locker room...... not the correct places.
Even BG's dad acknowledged he made a mistake.
He had to be reprimanded to prevent it from happening again with him.....and to prevent another teammate from thinking Brannen's actions must have been ok (had there not been consequences for Brannen's insubordination).. Precedence has been established, albeit at BG's expense.
So maybe the punishment was too harsh .....even for a third known disciplinary infraction......reduce it to three games......not nearly as harsh, but he still misses Hawaii.
that being said, he did go to the Bahamas with the team two years ago. And if a tropical vacation over thanksgiving is really important to him, he can hang around another year and go back to the Atlantis event next year.
Three once in a lifetime experiences would sure be better than just two. but two once in a lifetime experiences is still better than just one.
Anybody think his teammates might be tired of BG's crap? He very well could be a cancer to the team!
@KUSTEVE People can laugh all day long. I care about KU BB and I am asking for improvement over the areas I have highlighted in several posts. You may very well be happy with the way things are going on over the last couple of years & that's fine with me, you have your own right. But I am not happy nor satisfied with Self's performance and I am asking him to learn from his mistakes & make changes. That's very fair as a KU BB fan.
@Crimsonorblue22 Punishment was too severe & harsh. BTW I like how BG shows emotion on the court. We need more flavor from KU players on the court
@SoftballDad2011 Its not about tropical vacation. Its about playing in Maui tournament. Coach has double standards here. His punishment towards Snacks & Traylor was no way near as harsh as towards BG. People on this board were asking Self to fire Snacks immediately for what he did and we all know how Self had responded?
@ralster I agree that BG did not handle it properly but the punishment was too severe. Coach Self has double standards. Recall how fans including yourself was asking Self to fire Snacks after his drug incident had come to light. And we all saw how Self had handled that incident.
I think @AsadZ has taken the discussion to a little different level. It's worth having, quite frankly, regarding Bill Self. I think it really frames for most of us where we're at -- we just want improvement. We don't want him fired. Not even close. We all (generally) like the guy. We know he represents our program well. And as @drgnslayr said, "be careful what you ask for". Heck, look at the mediocrity two great programs in our present tourney in Maui have fallen into -- UCLA and Indiana. However, fan bases do make title demands. Look at LSU in football. Running off Les Miles who has the #1 recruiting class for 2016. It is an incredible roll of the dice.
Again, I hope @AsadZ posts his thoughts regularly as the season goes on and is not dissuaded by those that take the "stop posting" approach. You, me, any of us, are no more KU fans than he simply because of his opinion. His fire Self opinion is a nice counterweight to a few of the Self worshippers we have here. @AsadZ said "But I will continue to demand improvement and accountability for Self." Nothing wrong with that. Keep it up.
On BG, one correction that seems pretty obvious -- @AsadZ said that @ralster said BG was "a locker room cancer." @ralster said "Self is trying desperately to not let Brannen Greene turn into a locker room cancer." Much different.
I point that out not to be nit-picky, but because I will take that leap. Locker room cancer. When, as a player, you bitch and moan in public, to the face of the coach, that's not just pre-cancerous cells. It's stage 1 at least. More like stage 2. Self chose the aggressive treatment.
I believe Self's suspension of Greene is a tremendous message to the rest of the team. It sets the right tone. And it is unequivocal. It draws the right line, in my opinion. Is it "player friendly" in the day of the pampered CBB player? Could it hurt recruiting? Different question. But in the vacuum of winning a national title, it was absolutely the correct path.
As @Crimsonorblue22 said, "coach didn't take that chance away, BG did". When you walk into Walmart and steal a shirt, you take the chance that some overweight security guard pulls out his taser. You risk an apparent overreaction. You become a criminal.
Mouthing off to your coach as Greene did in a public manner is crossing that line.
Six games, of course, is harsh on its face. But three games would have meant no Maui as well. And could you really permit a kid suspended for insubordination to travel and enjoy? I don't think so. And we don't know what else has occurred. Whether there have been behind the scenes blowups, maybe in Self's office. Pure speculation. My guess is that the duration of the suspension gives us insight.
And don't be surprised if sometime next week Self says that he's very proud of Brannen Greene for how he handled the suspension, that he's really attended to his business the right way -- and he reduces the suspension to four games or something like that. That would not be surprising to me. Actually, I think it will be a bit instructive on Greene's standing. If this suspension goes the full 6 games, that will tell me things aren't likely to ultimately reconcile. If it gets reduced, it tells me that Self, in a measured fashion, is working hard to discipline and reconcile. It would be the perfect tact on this, if Self wants this to reconcile -- "if."
@SoftballDad2011 think we need to test that out!
@SoftballDad2011 All venues are not the same, different feel & experience
I have been considering the Bahamas trip next year.
Would be completely out of character for me, but it's been a rough few years, so by then it might be just what the dr ordered.
Guessing I will talk myself out of it by then......but we'll see!
@SoftballDad2011 Dude - if you're physically able to do it - DO IT. (I left the "just" off of there, don't want to advertise for the competition)
Life's WAY too short to not have fun when you get the chance. If you're short on money, borrow it, have a bake-sale or a carwash but just go. Please - you will never regret it.
@nuleafjhawk and take me!
@AsadZ You recall correctly that I (personally) think Snacks should have been fired, simply because I want illegal things not be assoc with the Univ. of KS, but maybe Self had more info than anything we publicly know...its his call.
Now, this time we are not talking about illegal activity from BGreene (we wont talk about his past suspensions for smoking pot)--> no, we are talking about an emotional kid, who cannot, cannot see the reason for his frustration is his own shortcomings in playing this game on both ends of the court.
I think 100% of all of us alums (&fans) just want BG to shine & contribute. There is no victory in seeing him fail or transfer.
One thing Self has made CRYSTAL clear during his 12 years at KU: he will never... Ever... be a coach who loses control of his team, like Bruce Weber, for example.
JRGiddens BOOTED. CJGile BOOTED. Malcontent Micah Downs (allowed to) TRANSFER. Homeboy Brady SUSPENDED. Galindo homesick, allowed to transfer. Naadir Tharpe BOOTED. Mario Little allowed to stay as Self balances discipline-father with compassionate-father. Tyshawn and EJ, both SUSPENDED, & got the msg. Royce Woolridge, malcontent, allowed to TRANSFER. CJ Henry, locker room cancer/malcontent TRANSFERRED, right when we were short of guards?...yes. Wasnt right for the team's goals in several ways. Anrio Adams malcontent: TRANSFER. Quintrell Thomas: transfer.
@AsadZ I was there in April with about 8 guys asking Self Q&A session on anything/everything. He was asked about Naadir's dismissal. He said Frank was supposed to be "this good" even in his freshman season, but Naadir was a bad influence both on/off the court, and "had to go". He called Naadir a "good player for sure, but a bad leader, then with his acts, HAD to go. Had to go" (yes, he said it twice like that). He talked about IowaSt players, plays, and scout film breakdown...it is amazing the level of detail he knows even about opposing players. He has had humorous exchanges with G.Niang, & shared those with us. I cannot repeat what Niang said that made Self chuckle, due to adult locker room language, but it was hilarious. It was also clear Self had everything Hoiberg was doing dissected down to minute details.
What became clear to me, that after years, decades of coaching, Self loves players, sees them as pieces performing roles in his playstyle, and the recruiting game is always running in the background. But we've seen that he will not tolerate ONE player trying to disrupt a team trying to gain chemistry.
The fact that Self hit the EJECT button on fellow Oklahoman, and McDAA Giddens, taught me early on, that Self is old-school disciplinarian, and would expend a high-talent kid, rather than tolerate repeated team disruptions. BGreene continues to stupidly provide Self with disruptions, and the lockerroom eruption was over the top. See the pattern????? High-talent kid keeps being a problem. Doesnt know who is boss. Doesnt know, even as a g-d-mn junior what he's to do on court & off court. Self called him out in Oct about "not getting the big picture".
@AsadZ You cannot say "6 game suspension too harsh" in some vacuum, no, no, no. This is a culmination penalty, which even required BGreene to go nuclear in the lockkerroom for it to happen. Again, see BG's own foot in own mouth, despite Self's bootprints already on his ass, repeatedly.
And frankly, how bad was it to still be happening when Greene's parents were summoned? You certainly have heard about Self selling family atmosphere & fellowship, yet what was BG doing by yelling "I was the best player on the floor!!" right in front of his teammates. He chose to kick them all, and kick his coach when the were down & sad after a loss. BG chose absolutely the wrong moment, & absolutely the wrong manner to gripe about playing time.
Beware the dangerous logic of taking a shred of actual truth (fact BG needs more mpg), and using that fact in a negative, destructive manner. No good will come of it. That shred of truth will be lost in the fallout of the bad action. BG sits now with NO mpg. By his own action, no less, and @AsadZ , even BG's dad agrees with Self. But you dont, of course, because you are garnering attn by your flawed "dissent". Flawed, because it goes against decades of coaching principles (cannot lose control of your team). Even Calipari's OAD factory teams...he maintains control & has benched players. He talks about each player doing their job, trusting one another, and bldg team chem by March. I say he's in control of those OADs, he's proven that. I say Self should be allowed to run his team the way he sees fit.
You want to ask questions about the last 2-3 yrs? Ask Self about this roster. He will tell you. Its about each position performing the designated role. After 20+ yrs of coaching, the pieces in the system must perform their roles with efficiency. Execution, both ends of the floor. One piece starts squawking? Well, now that's about 180-degrees off course from the mission of team unity, team chemistry, and team-level execution, isnt it?
What did Self say on Hawk Talk the day after loss to Mich St? He said "this team, once it comes together as a TEAM, has the experience and talent to be very, very good". He didnt sound flustered, and was calm & easy-going with the fans calling in. You see he knows, just knows where this team is at.
Once the team saw BG's reaction in the lockerroom, then saw Self's punishment of BG--> now things are clear for the team. They are playing with passion. They just got shown what line you-dont-cross. You play for THIS coach. This coach has said he himself is nothing more than a "caretaker of the Kansas Legacy". The stakes are high. Its about sooooo much more than BGreene. He is nothing but an expendable piece, IF he chooses not to fit in with Self's greater construct.
@AsadZ my simple straightforward advice to you is to think big picture, not try to champion some troubled misfit...you concerned about the early exits in March? Well, what is Self or any coach trying to build from right now, in Nov??? Rotations, competence in teamplay & execution, and above all, team chemistry. That's what will serve us better in March. BG can only see it from his view, thats why he's way too young to be a head coach at a royalty program.
Big picture goals will not tolerate such a stark, almost unprecedented disruption from any player. Fact: if you play for this man, there are things you must and must not do...
Self's way, or the highway (outta here).
PHOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Way to go. :thumbsup:
@RockChalkinTexas (just my opinion, but I dont think any 3rd party like AsadZ needed to be there in the lockerroom, since BG's own dad came out after witnessing his son's tirade first-hand...and said Brannen "made a mistake" and that Self's suspension "should get (Brannen's) attention".
This KEY fact, that BGs parents and Self are in agreement (about BGs mistake, maybe not the mpg issue), is why I sharply differ from people like AsadZ's opinion. I see that as ignoring team chemistry and the big picture. We need a competent, tough, resourceful team come March, more than just about BGs mpg.
I love it when BG burys his 3s, but his post game act was way wrong: now its not about mpg, since BG turned it into a disciplinary issue. Again: his own dad agrees, and gave details that corroborate the whole situation. BG needs to grow up...of course we can use his talent, but dont need mouthy drama. Thats never been tolerated under Self (or Roy).
@Texas-Hawk-10 Well stated.
@ralster If Bill Self is such a disciplinarian than punishment for Snacks should have been severe. Snacks is coaching college kids, 18-22 year olds. He is recruiting HS kids, some as young as 16. How do parents feel when they get a visit from a coach who is doing illegal drugs, got caught and did not notify his boss. Could this issue be hurting KU recruiting? Why did Bill Self did not fire Snacks? I see double standards here Ralster.
Ralster, I am trying to identify the issues I am seeing with KU BB. I don't dislike HCBS. I like him a lot. As I had said before I used to show his work to my own children as an inspiration. But is clear to me that Bill is losing the edge and I want that changed for KUs sake.
I don't like continued early exits in the tourney. On top of that I see HCBS mishandling and misusing talent available to him. He has more BB knowledge than all of us combined but I cant understand the unjust treatment towards players like Mickelson & Greene, its pathetic that Traylor & Lucas are getting more PT than Mickelson, makes no sense to me whatsoever. He has misled fans with his conflicting comments, recall how he talked about learning at the WUG. When it comes to game days he is inflexible and not changing with time, I see him getting outcoached more & more. Recall how coach K implemented a zone strategy in the middle of the season when his team was struggling and it started to pay off the dividends, another NC banner for coach K. How often has coach Self implemented changes during crunch time in the last 2 years? Please tell me?
Ralster I am sure that you will agree with me that this year we have a NC caliber potential team, talent + experience but I am afraid that above issues could come in the way, another early exit will be hard to swallow Ralster, I hope not.
@AsadZ 100% agree with you about Snacks, and I still feel that way. Your first paragraph was a carbon copy of my ideas. What would some parents think? But the fact it surfaced almost a year after it happened may have been a mitigating factor. Main point: there could be a LOT we don't know about Snacks details. Plus, he may have absolutely begged for his professional life on his knees...and Self may have come up with some personal agreement between the 2 men?
Who knows? Eventhough I heard a few questions answered candidly by Self, and asked him some of my own...that is simply a drop in the ocean of all the details behind-the-scenes of KU basketball.
I appreciate your and every KU fan's and alum's concern-level for KU basketball's success. My personal feeling is I think Self is keenly aware of how KU's early exits have made him and the program look. What we can trust, is that he personally is a highly competitive individual who hates to lose.
But you know, Self is "closest" to what goes on on the court, and will take responsibility for it, as most coaches will. But it comes down to players who actually have the ball in their hand.
You can absolutely make a case for more mpg for various bench guys, for various reasons...but it is Self's final judgement, and I'm fine with it. If the $52mil dollar man cant figure it out...the team's and program's fortunes will slide accordingly. It all will sort itself out.
Below is from BG's twitter. I'm glad he is still all-in here at KU, looking forward to seeing him back out on the court and draining those threes!
@RockkChalkk that's a good statement from the young man. Especially about the rumors.
I Liked the way he called people out for believing what they want cause they don't have nothing but time to criticize.
Sure I was down on the kid but, not for long and this helps see him in a different light.
@Crimsonorblue22 all edited now. Lol
@RockkChalkk Thank you for sharing
