🏀 KuBuckets Archive

KU found basketball player Lagerald Vick likely hit female student, recommended probation

http://kuhoops.com/ku-basketball-news/129703974/ ↗

Not good. What's going on with this program?

Allegedly happened in 2015? Someone needs to have the "you just don't hit girls" talk with every freshman player when they get to KU...

What is this TMZ

Good lord

Getting flat out embarrassing to be KU basketball fan. WTF is going on, these guys have to start acting like men and champions off the court tired of this bullSh**t, time to start dismissing players.

Time to take a no nonsense policy. Next guy to mess up is gone. Done. Get the ship righted and set precedence. Being good people is more important than basketball. You aren't above the law because you play basketball at Kansas. How can we even defend our program right now? We ARE an embarrassment. Something I never thought I'd see under Self.

Recruiting may or may not take a hit from all this artillery bombardment, but all this pub may get HCBS & SZ both a double up on metoprol. BS is getting to the age now that usually restricts limits of patience & this is exactly the sort of garbage that gets some coaches looking for greener pastures. At least in the L coaches aren't responsible for wiping a kids ass if he's not smart enough to do it himself. They surely are capable of scooting like a dog 🐶 aren't they? Damn, forgive me for insulting all of our buddies... WTH was I thinking?!

Why is it that an incident that happened in 2015, is coming out now?

Also Bragg had 2 incidents where he was accused of hitting a woman?

This just burst the damn bubble right on top of HCBS 20 K toupee. So who do we have waiting in the wings? Tyler is ready to say sayonara so maybe time to get dust off the Rolodex... I don' have a very good gut feeling about the path these events are unfolding. For some inexplicable reason I am beginning to think this snowball is not done ✅ growing. Sure would like to be wrong as Hell. One day at a time I guess.

@Eric-san Sept he was accused of repeatedly slamming a door 🚪 on a young woman's arm. Same idiot style social pattern - not his fault ??

@globaljaybird repeatedly?

@Crimsonorblue22 Can't believe everything printed but I read it somewhere. Is why I used question marks for punctuation. Who the hell knows? Why should of we even have this conversation? If he's gonna act like a loser again & again then yada yada shoulda already been gone. I'm just waitin for the next tutoring scandal to break ...

@globaljaybird even being a girl, hate to judge to quickly! Last time it was all on the girl. I read where he was trying to get away from a girl when he shut the door, there were witnesses, no charges. Don't know yet on Vick. He was really really young.

@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah & I know many before, Sherron, Morris, Brady, TT, etc have had their issues too. I can judge quickly also & was even contemplating admitting just that when you said it. But This is schizz awful timing for more extremely bad pub & even makes HCBS & SZ both 👀 like it's been a hush, hush deal for some time now. Domestic violence is not a bullshit misdemeanor bong. People can easily die when the wrong decisions are assessed involving the wrong people. Just my nickels worth. Will get down off da 📦 now- 😐 sorry.

stymied as to what even to say. - - Like another said right now we ARE an embarrassment to college basketball, exactly how can you even begin to defend these actions? - Yes we could take a very big hit in the recruiting, it could get really ugly. SMH - -you got to just start to question the character of these guys. - - Sounds like the Vick situation might be behind him - - he could be on school probation who the hell knows. Man these other schools are just licking there chops at this mess. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Eric-san said:

Why is it that an incident that happened in 2015, is coming out now?

Ikr? Bizarre...

I mean Vick allegedly kicking a woman in the face and hitting her arm, is pretty serious stuff. I imagine Vick would've been charged already and probably kicked off the team. Vick hasn't been charged, hasn't been publicly suspended or put on "school probation". It's almost like this was swept under the rug by KU's coaching staff, and somehow was dug up by someone. Taking off my tinfoil hat now.

@Eric-san On the up & up ? IDK ???

Something is fishy about this. So she was assaulted and it is just now coming out? No charges filed?

@Eric-san from what I read, if it happened it would be a KU thing, suppose to be private too. Athletics would not have anything to do w/it.

So the university investigated it and not the police? Never heard of that before. My dad and I are talking about it and this story sounds like %1000 bull crap.

I think the coaching staff needs to assign chaperones or something for our guys so that it will end these allegations. For petes sake this is like a freakin soap opera. That might sound drastic but this is getting quite old.

@HawkChamp if it happened

@HawkChamp tmz.

Has anyone heard of the group that allegedly investigated this report?

@autohawk never have. If something actually happened, the police would have been involved, not some division at the university that I bet most people have never heard of.

@Crimsonorblue22 had no idea you were a girl, haha sorry if I've insinuated your were a guy lol. My point is basketball is my favorite sport, KU my favorite team but we have to do things the right way even if it means having to kick guys out and risk a bad season. I don't wanna be in the conversation with PSU and Baylor.

@kjayhawks Self has never done anything to indicate that he lets stuff slide. He didnt with Brady, Tyshawn and Carlton.

@kjayhawks But yet Snacks, an assistant coach, was busted for weed and didn't get booted. To me far bigger than CB busted with paraphernalia.

@HawkChamp obviously the penalty ain't stiff enough or these guys would have their heads in the right place.

@brooksmd I thought he should've been dismissed. I'm sorry I don't think it's okay to use drugs.

@brooksmd Maybe Self is learning his own lesson by keeping Snacks on staff (who got busted for pot)-->now its come full circle, as players cant take it as seriously, since...well...Snacks is still here.

JeezLouise, Bill Self, there isnt ANY other capable Asst.Coach-with-Chicago-connections in these United States that YOU could hire to be a proper example for impressionable young men? Snacks played for Self", so the reverse spin could be propagated by 3rd parties that Self has been "soft" on this sort of stuff even prior to 2004? I dont think Bill Self wants this sort of taint on him, or on KU*. Maybe Jamari Traylor (from Chicago), who played for Bill Self, could step in and do whatever it is that Snacks officially does as an Asst.Coach?

This whole thing is disgusting--aint "royalty" of nuthin!. Im having a hard time reconciling Snack's "example", with what Carlton did. You cannot tell me Bragg may have had a fleeting thought about "what if Self found out"--and then rationalized it away by seeing nothing happened to Snacks. Never mind that Snacks reportedly had to beg and plead to Bill Self to save his job. Snacks, tacitly, shares blame for this.

I believe in second chances.

@kjayhawks I'm with you. I was just pointing out the difference. Some on here say, prior to the Vick revelation, that all the goings on with CB would affect recruiting, that mom's wouldn't want their sons playing in such a den of depravity. But yet they overlook Snacks. As a parent I could overlook a single player problem, but an assistant coach who is supposed to be a guiding light would make me question.

@brooksmd not like he was getting hookers for the team or hooking them up w/weed. I'm a forgiving kind of person.

@ralster good take. @Crimsonorblue22 I agree but how many chances would this count for Carlton? Deal in September, December (not his fault completely but didn't put himself in a good situation) now the drug charges. If I'm self I tell him this is his last chance and he's damn lucky to have it. The Vick deal is his first issue tho a bad one, hitting, then kicking a girl. Hopefully no one has a video, for some reason if it isn't taped it isn't as bad.

@brooksmd Coaching is the issue with the Vick sit also. How could HCBS or SZ in fair conscience, NOT suspend LV for violating team rules ?? That's a horrible picture for me if I'm a parent who's trusting my son's future to a staff I also want to trust. IMO but this program's credibility is taking a major hit on this one

@Crimsonorblue22 He's supposed to be a responsible adult setting an example for the young men he recruits.

@globaljaybird Agreed, but so far what do we really know? Do we really know there wasn't some form of punishment? Was Vick really sick for those 2 games? I guess because of privacy rules we may never know unless the young lady comes forward and tells her version.

@kjayhawks cant say for sure he did. If this girls story is true, she would have gone to the police or someone from the university would have reported it.

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

@brooksmd I'm a forgiving kind of person.

That's because you're a great mom.

@brooksmd ummm I'm one that said it could effect recruiting AND I sure don't condon our quote unquote recruiter " Snacks - -what kind of an example was he sitting? You shouldn't overlook EITHER BOTH wrong - -you make bad decisions - -you pay for those decisions - that's called taking responsibility for your actions - -taking accountability. plain and simple - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@ralster Snacks should of been GONE - -again what kind of example does that set for these young men. - -your surpose to be a mentor - -someone they can look too, talk too, depend on in all area's sooo Snacks decides to smoke a little pot - - NICE - - REAL NICE. I agree with you , you mean to tell me there are no other recruiters for that area that we could have got? - - ya = - -ok = - - - -ROC CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

I keep saying it.... the player who is leading the team also polices every player off the court. It is his team.

Heck, I've been through this myself playing on teams not even near the level of D1.

@Crimsonorblue22 I like your forgiving spirit. But this is not as simple as a father or mother giving their child a "second chance", or "letting" someone who is anonymous keep their job.

There are not only personal level ramifications (what's our opinion of HCBS for keeping Snacks on staff?), program level ramifications (the already mentioned concern about example being set, precedent being set, "tolerance" being set, questions about program quality if we absolutely must keep such people on staff?), institutional level ramifications (The University of Kansas. Can Snaxx ever look BGrayLittle in the eye? Can she ever take him seriously? Well, this WmsFund alum cannot take him seriously, other than the very serious nature of his job title and supposed role on this coaching staff!). And what about parent's perceptions? Every Single Year some stupid nonsense out of the program: Giddens knife fight, CJGile hitting a girl, Brady drunkard, (I'll leave out Tyshawn's fight with ftball players, as its small potatoes compared to illegal/court stuff), Mario Little's altercation, Naadir's non-photogenic act with TheTeacher, ASST COACH guilty on dope--> Self incredulously keeps him..., Vick?, Bragg x 3 (hangin w/nasty "ho" assault case, slammed arm in door, now drug paraphenalia).

So, how many chances we going to give Bragg? On this stage? Many, many, many eyes are watching & judging. This is sooo much more than giving some private person a 2nd chance.

My vote? Make a horrible example out of Bragg, for both on and off court bullschitt--> goner! Then go tell Snacks that we were wrong to keep him, as that doesnt then give us a leg to stand on down the line (no credibility), and unfortunately for him: sack his snackin'totin'butt!

Right the ship, Bill. You just beat KY in Rupp without a good-for-nothing McDAA BUST. Clearly, he does not have the pride nor the work ethic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not worthy of the uniform. And, please, recognize this is a by-product of your being "soft" on Snacks. He played for you once, but he's clearly not any sort of starter here.

I want to know why this is coming out now. Who released it?

@HawkChamp kc star, suppose to be private

@Crimsonorblue22 no - who at the university?

@ralster behavioral problems for this team have long since pre dated snacks. Morris twins. sherrons elevator incident. Giddens. Tyshawn. EJ. Brady. Mario Littke. Trying to tie this to snacks is a stretch.

Also an artical that says "Vick probably did this" is bs. Either he did or he didn't. Provide the evidence of fact or drop it. A character insult like this and saying he "probably did it " is unacceptable in my opinion. If I am missing something that has been
Published i apologize. No place in this world for violence and violence against women.

@Blown also no place for false accusations. The person who falsely accuses should not get off the hook so easy like they sometimes do.

!IMG_2850.JPG ↗

From twitter

@Crimsonorblue22 who posted that?

@HawkChamp can't remember but this is the ku office that you were asking about, What is the Office of Institutional Opportunity and Access

Go to bed with a great dream of #13 dancing in my head and waking up the next day to a freakin' train wreck. What the hell happened? Is this even the same team? The timing of all this stinks. I'm beginning to smell some type of foul play or set up for some insane reason. Can we stop the bleeding and someone please change the channel. I'm going to my happy place until it's safe to come out into the Wizard of Oz. Damn it...Kansas is the Land of Oz. There's no place like home, there's no place like home...clicking heels over and over.

I seem to remember when this happened w/Bragg, somebody said Vick had problems w/her too. He had to run from her. I think they said he was hiding behind the bed when she came in the room. Can you see that picture? I can. Batshit crazy! You do know who her brother was? Google him.

@Crimsonorblue22

The story gets crazier every day...

This story should be redacted from the media until one shred of fact is proven. 2015 get out of here.

This is like piling on a celeb when things go wrong. The KC Star your a JOKE

Now, why would this come out 2 days b4 the Baylor game? From 2015? This is a steaming pile of poo. A hit piece.

@KUSTEVE

Exactly!!

I am often accused by people I know of being a great moralist, and of being overly harsh in my expectations and judgments of myself and others. I might exceed the speed limit by 8 mph, but I pay every dime of income tax, don't download pirated movies and broke off a close friendship when he wanted me to lie about an affair. In short, straight and narrow.

But I think y'all are going way overboard in calling this a program that is out of control, or assigning blame to Coach Howard for Bragg's infractions. This thread really has degenerated into a massive amount of handwringing and old-lady fainting over a few reported incidents that actually only involve two kids currently in the program. Yet we are being referred all the way back to Giles as an indictment of our team? I will take all the success stories in the meantime as an overwhelming counterbalance to that, or to a DUI here or an embarrassing photo there--any and every day of the year.

Zero tolerance policies are being set up everywhere, and good kids are being kicked out of grade schools for having drawn a picture of a gun. I think HCBS has earned the right to decide who works for him and to use his discretion in evaluating character or administering punishment to athletes or staff.

Please note that if Vick was put on probation for something from 16 or so months ago, that could have been with the cooperation of the athletic department. No indication that it hasn't been successful. Bragg's stuff is more serious, but hardly reason for anyone to pull the rug out from the coach.

Take a deep breath, everyone. Please!

Of course, if the rape incident involved a player, and if it was known to the staff and ignored like Baylor's football players, I will retract this post and light the torches myself.

@mayjay Good stuff,man. I would never watch a pirated movie either....well, maybe a few...ummm...ok,ok, not more than 3 to 5 a week...but that's it!

BTW, I have some good news to share. ESPN comes out with this:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/page/powerrankings170130/kansas-jayhawks-top-college-hoops-power-rankings-big-win-kentucky-wildcats ↗ ↗

@kraken Maaan, this sucks. Why is this just coming up now? two years later?

@KUSTEVE Did it seem odd to you we are #1 but top visual is of Gonzaga player?

Today we will hear Bill actually has 3 wives, not 1. He has 7 summer kids that he has not seen in 6 years and owes $7,456 in back child support payments. Both Wives are suing him for payment. Cindy decides to sue the "alleged" wives for slander.

Tomorrow, hours before tip we'll get word that our water boy is suspended from team operations for inadvertently filling a Gatorade bottle with his afternoon pick me up instead of you know Gatorade. The players are told they must get their own drank on the bench. Tough times.

Thursday, after beating Baylor at home in a hotly contested game, Bill Self will hold a press conference to address both rumors saying "you guys are a bunch of fools gold".

Friday, the media will take that to heart and release a steamy video of the 2001 team playing a hotly contested game of ping pong in which one of players loses grip of his paddle and inadvertently flies into a window causing a crack. The window was never fixed by the "alleged" offender and a outstanding bill of $254 dollars has been kept in KU record books since under "Unnamed KU player broke window". A donor attempted to pay for the window to be replaced and a whistle blower reported this infraction to the NCAA causing the powers that be to open an investigation in the KU program. ESPN, has become full on TMZ setting up multiple command centers to investigate all that has happened in the last few weeks at the KU campus.

Saturday, A report starts swirling that Bill Self has enacted Marshall Law and has locked his players in the lockeroom ( the opposite of what Coach K did to his guys). The players are unable to eat before the game causing Devonte Graham to cramp up 6 minutes into the mid-afternoon game. Bill Self's seldom used son Tyler comes into the game and drains 7 of 8 shots and helps erase a 14 point deficit to Iowa St in the 1st half. He is caught on camera saying "I got this Bill". Self during the post-game interview, ponders whether his walk-on son should have been playing more saying after the game " I thought we had 5 really good guards but I guess I forgot one".

How impossible is this after the week we've seen in the news?

@Fightsongwriter Baby steps first ....

@KUSTEVE They also have links to Rock Chalk Talk scalding the 💩.outta HCBS & KU program. Mighty bad national pub right now - mighty bad.

@BeddieKU23 Clever 😂

@BeddieKU23 They definitely like to promote "sensationalism" in their copy. But most do in this day & age

I'm going to toss this out there and I'm sure @jaybate-1.0 would have me tarred an feathered for the conspiracy talk, but ...

takes deep breath and adjusts tin foil hat

There are those out there who probably don't want John Wooden's legacy tarnished or his "unbeatable" record of consecutive conference titles shared in any way. The fact that we beat big, bad Kentucky at their own place gives us confidence going into the huge Baylor game tomorrow. A win there helps clear the path for another title as long as we take care of our business.

In a post the other day, I wondered about the pressure of the streak on these players and suggested that the media hasn't even gotten involved yet in their constant coverage of the event. Well, now suddenly there is a hit piece (I presume at this point) about an incident from 2015 regarding Vick and I fear this is only the start of the avalanche. One way or another, the powers that be will try to put an asterisk next to KU's accomplishment should they take the crown again this year.

Expect much more of this as our wins pile up and the record gets closer within reach.

@Blown Did you miss that I indeed listed the PRE-Snacks incidents?

You want the Cliff Notes version: I blame Bill Self and his Staff

And let me correct that logic: It is NOT a stretch to try to connect Snacks pothead on staff with now a drug bust of a KU player.. Why is that a leap? Again, the mere existence on the coaching staff of a joker like Snacks, immediately calls into question the levels of tolerance, precedence, leniency/"softness" for such behavior within the program?

Its a serious set of questions and the buck stops with Bill Self.

We've got Frank, Josh, Devonte, LL, Svi playing their asses off...then we have Bragg.

All those in favor of Josh Jackson literally taking Bragg's 4spot, please say "aye". AYE

How is this not confusing for a college age student when the US can't make up its mind? Mixed message much?

!IMG_1898.PNG ↗

It needs to be 100% clear to these student athletes what the consequences are.

To be clear marijuana has been de-criminalized in Lawrence, but not legalized.

@dylans I would have to believe that in today's world the staff makes sure the kids know that Kansas is NOT one of the legal states.

@brooksmd Not legal, but do they allude to consequences? Pot use on the basketball team is very common, players that haven't smoked at some point are more rare than most realize.

Or alcohol use for that matter, most are minors. Alcohol is just as destructive if not more.

@ralster No, I saw that you listed the pre- Howard incidents. But my comprehension of what you were saying in the post that I replied to was that you're saying Self's treatment, or lack of punishment to Howard leads directly to the misbehavior of the players.

A few things to consider: These guys are growing into men in a national spotlight. They are going to make mistakes. I realize you never tried pot or broke any laws, but I bet over 50% of the posters here have broken laws, smoked pot, drank underage....something. We just did not grow up under a spotlight.

Another--when you listen to Self talk about this team, he constantly refers to his team as a family. That is the way he sees it. These are more than just basketball players to him. Self's number one goal is to make sure the players he recruits are in a better spot to be a father, husband, provider when they leave him. He's not going to just give up on them after a few incidents. Just like you wouldn't give up on your family after a few incidents.

Self allows his players & assistants to make mistakes and he gives them second chances. I agree with you the buck stops with Self and he has earned the right to say when the buck does stop. But I just will simply agree to disagree with you that these kids look at Coach Howard and say "well, he got a way with it, so will I"

@Blown Nice post. Thank you also for using Coach Howard's name. The continued use of the nickname that is equivalent to calling a member of the KU family "Fatso" is an ongoing burr under my saddle.

@mayjay I would agree with you with my ku-glasses on (whatever we do within our program is our perogative, & our own business, right?)

But, if you looked at it from a natl perspective, you cant tell me this isnt a blight on KU. Look, we hold ourselves to be a pinnacle/standard-bearer type of program, thus what is deemed acceptable must be able to meet such standards. Ideals, even. And if WE cant live up to it, why are we pretending?

Here's the double entendre phrase to ponder for today: Superpowers usually dont fall in a day, it takes time. Usually they rot from within.

We're not talking about the other 300+ Div1 Men's BBall programs, we're talking about the very standard that KU itself helped to set.

As fans or alums of this University, doesnt it matter why we have so much pride about it in the first place?

So being mindful of that pride & tradition, I have zero pride that we chose to keep a convicted drug offender as an AsstCoach. And zero pride in the behavior & performance of one Carlton Bragg.

As a corollary, let me add that when Self directly told a small group of us in April2015 in a very candid manner that "Naadir had to go, as he was a bad influence on Frank both on & off the court", my respect for Self went up for him, how could it not? But we can see that each decision of his can have major ramifications.

Bragg's situation is disturbing on many levels.

And before you call us concerned alums lil'old ladies a-hand-wringin', you might choose to recall that Self, Frank, Devonte, & Josh ALL called this a distraction/disruption in various media interviews...how is that a good thing?

@ralster I don't think this is 3 strikes on Bragg. He has been guilty of poor judgement with who he hangs out with...but he was absolved of wrong doing via the video. I think it is wrong for people to hold this against him as much as some are.

@mayjay Well said!

@ralster I never said it wasn't a distraction. But I just think it is not a Titanic-level disaster. Minor crisis. Same with Coach Howard, who has since his conviction performed quite capably. Didn't he help bring in Josh? Cannot fault Self for sticking by someone he has known for so long. This wasn't an assistant coach abusing kids in the shower, or hiring prostitutes, or faking athletes' schoolwork, or making payoffs. Frankly, your reaction is on the level I would have had if he had provided drugs to the kids. This was much more forgiveable in my book, and I am not a pro-pot advocate.

My worrying right now is reserved for potential major crises that have nothing to do with KU.

Just one more test for our guys.

I keep saying it... struggle can work for us, too.

It certainly worked in Lexington.

I have been very outspoken about mayhem in the Baylor athletic program. Now am cringing more than somewhat at the disclosure of male-female conflicts with a pair of our current players. Father of girl whom Vick is accused of assaulting refers investigative calls to a lawyer? Whoa! These players are placing their potential future earnings in jeopardy...and are too stupid to understand the consequences?
Not to mention losing support of adoring fans, fodder for opposing recruiters, blemishes to their heralded university program. Kansas Basketball is a much bigger deal than the need to hang onto miscreants, or cover up improprieties or work special deals with arresting or prosecutorial agencies. The decision to retain Howard might be coming back to bite the program in the butt. These issues of imropriety are piling up.

@dylans Nice graph. Nice Rational comments. I like it.

I would like to expand on that if I may. I like being rational as much as possible. Rational without prejudgement is even better. Because, seriously anyone can make a rational argument for or against something and have prejudice attached to it, buried in there somewhere.

Regarding Vick. I smell a rat. I absolutely do not condone violence against women. If he did indeed transgress 2 years ago, it seems likely he would have been punished 2 years ago, yah? Yah. Why bring this out again? It doesnt make sense.

Lets not race to crucify Vick just yet shall we? As far as we know, he's been the picture of good behavior. Who here thinks Bill Self would let anything like this slide? No way in hell.

Regarding Carlton and the alleged evidence. ITS just weed people. Its NOT that big of deal. Fact, Kansas has not legalized it for any use medicinal or otherwise. Fact, Cannabis has dozens of medicinal purposes. Fact, weed was criminalized back in the 20's by a smear campaign from a wood baron who thought it would damage his business. It has remained illegal.

More opining than anything, I believe that players at KU should up hold their status as KU basketball players. FOLLOW THE RULES, go to class, play hard, study hard etc. If weed is illegal in Lawrence, but decriminalized, they need to keep their hands off it. Or, at very least, dont freeking get caught with it.

Im at work, so I'll have to edit and add more to this later.

@Hawk8086 Video vindication? Which occurrence, # 1,2, or 3? Or would that be all of the above?

@tis4tim Very valid points Tim , jaybate or not. Who would ever want to do us harm - at least outside of a few in misery or the little "road" 🍎??

The best approach, I think, is not to moralize either way on marijuana in this discussion. It's a team rules violation regardless of our beliefs on the topic. Self apparently had a rule and he broke it. That analysis is pretty easy.

On Vick, I am most troubled by the possibility that Bill Self lied -- saying he was sick.

I couple that with his clear deception (via carefully choosing his words) on the linkage of Bragg's suspension.

Not that it really bothers me personally. It's just that this is the sort of stuff that brings out the knives from certain quarters of our society.

Meanwhile, I saw that someone did ask Self about Maxwell and Self said he was gone from KU's campus at the time.

If this news about Vick is true, this is private info. Self can not make comments about it. The school can not make comments. The Star should not be able to see these documents. I'm to busy to say more, but if my daughter was hit and kicked in the face there would be a police report.

@Crimsonorblue22 exactly. No police report, no story. This is the media grasping for straws.

@HawkChamp No story except that he seems to have violently laid hands on a woman. Not cool.

@wissox seems to?

@wissox

Allegedly...

@wissox evidence? Videos? Statements to police? Witnesses? Police report? Again, if this really happened, this girl would have to be downright insane for not going to the police. This is not news unless there is real evidence which there has not proven to be.

@HighEliteMajor agreed on all counts HEM, except Bill Self has always been a straight hitter with us. He's as honest as he can be and gives us the info that he can give, when he gets it. I cannot believe he would intentionally cover something up like this thing with Vick and marginalize this stuff with Bragg. Thats not him.

@mayjay

Thank you for being the voice of reason. There are several separate issues that by themselves are relatively small but when you start adding them up a faint pattern appears to emerge. Having visited with friends that are basketball fans, happen to live in various parts of the country and follow different team, I got the impression that KU is not an abnormal situation but rather the norm of what goes on at other programs and it is an extension of what happens with college students at large. The only difference is that some programs are better at keeping the issues under wraps and some are more successful, or as a cynic with say...have more experience dealing with this type of issues. Elite programs such as KU are under a microscope and every event is multiplied many fold and makes the national news.

As @Crimsonorblue22 mentioned, there seems to be a link between the Bragg and Vick incidents. At the time of the Bragg fiasco, it was mentioned that Vick apparently had an issue with the same woman...one of those things that makes you go hmmm...

I mentioned before that some women are attracted to sports stars and basically stalk them. I mentioned before a former Chiefs player whose girlfriend started to hit him he simple extended his arms to protect himself, she bumped against his hands and fell down; he was arrested and then charges dropped once the facts came to light. A few days later (you have got to question his judgment) when he was at her house she started to become abusive, he left the house and locked himself in his car and she started kicking his car, slipped on the ice and fell down...again, he was arrested and released...luckily he was able to afford a very good attorney. It happens. It has happened ever since Eve tricked Adam and Delilah destroyed Sampson and will continue happening as long as there are men and women. In all fairness, sometimes it works the other way as well.

Is it really that far fetched that the same girl is involved in all these incidents? Given the available information, and I will admit is thin, but it does not really sound that far fetched....the "nutso" lineage seems to be there, if you know what I mean.

Another item that needs to be consider in the Vick case is that it look like the issue was agreed by both parties to go to an in-house committee rather than filing a police report. The committee used the much lower "preponderance of evidence" threshold of proof rather than the more customary "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold to reach a decision. Now, anyone of you that pays tuition for your kid and feels that you should be able to see his/her grades, you know that because of the privacy act you cannot. Likewise in this case, because of the privacy act, it is possible that the Athletic Department was not able to see the details of the investigation. One would think that Coach self would have some leverage, but in our current legal system he could have incurred some legal liability if he tried to use the leverage to learn about information protected by the privacy act. Perhaps @mayjay or any of the lawyers on the forum can chime in.

Snacks situation is a little more complicated. We all agree that he screwed up big, big time and the question is what should the punishment have been? Keep in mind that Snacks has been known to Coach Self ever since he played under him at Illinois and he knows better than all of us his character and the risk he took giving him a second chance. Anyone that has ever fired someone knows how difficult it is, particularly when the individual in question has a family to support. Most people fired are given a letter of some sort that many times skirts the real reason so as not to make that individual un-hireable. Because of the publicity, firing Snacks at the the time would have made him basically un-hireable in his field, not that he did not bring that on himself, but still...Coach Self made a decision to give him a second chance with a lot more information than we have and taking a personal risk, so it is unfair to second guess him. Sometimes we just have to trust his judgment.

I find it fishy that all these stories are suddenly coming to the forefront at this particular time...again, one of those things that makes you go hmmm...

@JayHawkFanToo the story I read, I think was from a comment on the star article on Bragg and the soofi girl. I'm assuming you all know who she is related to. The comment I read was about Vick being scared to death of her and he was hiding behind or under his bed when she came into the room. Remember he's really young too. I can see various scenarios coming from this. As far as Self lying, he's legally bound to🤐. That's why he sat Bragg the first time, let it play out, let the police take care of it. Unfortunately Bragg screwed up. I read where fans are worried Self will get sick of this 💩 And go elsewhere. Who knows.

@Crimsonorblue22 I have read that too and it is a possibility. Of course, the NBA has a lot of drama queens and whiny babies, so its not like it is a stress free zone. Hopefully this stuff will blow over soon and we can all get back to thinking solely about the game and not this crap.

@Crimsonorblue22

The more I talk to fans of other elite programs, the more I realize they are all pretty much the same and have the same issues...KU is not that different than most any other program, it simply is a bigger and easier target and has a lot more visibility.

I cannot imagine HCBS leaving. It would create huge ??? about whether he engaged in misconduct and was really forced out. He would leave under a cloud and people would never shut up about things they don't know about.

We DO know no charges were filed at the time. We DON"T know if him kicking the girl in the face had to do with her grabbing his leg and not letting go, or whether he did a Bruce Lee roundhouse kick. We don't know if punching her in the arm was a "slugbug", or whether he frogged her. Some young ladies are very abusive because they know they can't get in trouble for it. I dated a gal for awhile who was downright mean, and I have the scars on my arms to prove it. I'm not ready to :

1- Convict Vick w/o hearing all the details.

2-Blame/Dump Snacks because of what he did a few years back.

3- Not ready to run off CB for having a bong in his dorm. Don't tell anyone, but I had a bong at Templin Hall.

@mayjay someone leaked private, personal matters about his player. According to those statements, not sure he knew, unless Vick told him. Tell me what happens w/that?

@mayjay agreed. No way Coach Self leaves KU because of this! No way. Its piddly stuff compared to other programs

@Crimsonorblue22 Dunno. If Self didn't know, I would expect there will be some repercussions for Vick.

Part of my relatively laid-back response to all this is that we have no idea what came out in the KU hearing. The "preponderance of the evidence" standard allows a lot of possibilities since 1) it was a closed hearing; 2) there is neither a complaint nor an answer on the public record; 3) there is no summary of the evidence: and 4) no criminal charges were recommended.

It is entirely possible that there was a vague complaint, or that a mutual altercation occurred, with some slightly more probative evidence that Vick was more at fault than the woman. A recommendation of probation without requiring antiviolence counseling seems minimal to me.

In today's culture, I would be shocked if Vick would have been allowed to stay on campus if it was an unprovoked or vicious attack.

@mayjay I mean how can it be leaked? Is there some kind of legal liability for this?

@Lulufulu I agree -- he has always been honest, and we should presume the same. I'm just more concerned with how this looks and how this sort of stuff hits ESPN, then gets momentum. Always sharks in the water.

@Crimsonorblue22 Possibly if it can be proven it was someone with a duty not to disclose.

But, what if it was a leak by the woman herself or an attorney representing her? They might not be under a duty. An attorney might have been trying to negotiate a settlement with KUAD, for all we know (read: "blackmail"). The disclosure could have been retaliation. Vick might have told someone, who dug into it.

@mayjay they couldn't reach the woman and dad said talk to attorney. They knew all this beforehand.

@KUSTEVE said:

3- Not ready to run off CB for having a bong in his dorm. Don’t tell anyone, but I had a bong at Templin Hall.

Below is one of the many bongs I had in college. I still have them all to this day. :smile:

!Depeche-Mode-Strangelove.jpg ↗

@Crimsonorblue22 I don't remember how the Star said they got it, but leaking papers is not always done with a signed "here ya go".

@mayjay possibly they were just chasing every rabbit down every hole trying to break which Ku player is involved in the rape incident (if any) and just turned this stone over by chance.

@Crimsonorblue22

" I read where fans are worried Self will get sick of this 💩 And go elsewhere. Who knows."

This stuff goes on everywhere. I think what Bill cares about most is that the KU administration does the right thing. If not, then you have a Baylor situation.... then Bill is gone.

There is a question about whether or not these stories all point to the same girl. Could be.

Another angle points to someone yet to be mentioned. A "fan" who provides players with girls, drugs, whatever they want. These "fans" are at every university all the time.

@drgnslayr I don't think they'd have any problem getting girls. A KU Jayhawk is a man of distinction and talent. The ladies can't resist.

@KUSTEVE

Just like the guys wouldn't have a problem getting weed anywhere.

This is largely a convenience thing. The girls are "vetted."

Even pro athletes use these guys.

Sounds like Bragg's court date has been moved to march 3rd. Does that mean he is done til after that date?

Hey, I have some questions about this pot topic...

Someone posted a pix of the US showing states where pot is legal, as I knew someone would. Then it was mentioned that pot is still mostly illegal because of 1 guy in the 1920's who got it outlawed because he saw it as a business threat? But wait, doesnt that ignore approximately 50 yrs of recurring intellectual and political debate about the legalization of marijuana? And how many times has it been voted down across the nation? So, do all these voters voting it either legal OR illegal actually know about that guy in the '20s?

I would also ask if someone has actually reviewed scientific research on THC/cannabis? What do we actually know now, compared to back in the '20s, or even the '60s?

Someone wanted to tout facts. So why is it a widespread fact that if you get hurt on the job and you go for medical evaluation, most employers require a urine drug test? So could it be TRUE that pot's well-known cognitive, emotional, and physical performance effects on the majority of humans studied, has caused widespread drug testing to look for this medical/legal culpability in people hurt on the job? So this well-established norm in WorkersComp cases must be predicated on something thats already been proven...hmm? Because those attorneys would debunk such culpability in a hurry if it wasnt based on an already proven, established fact, right?

Hey, my only real question is why cant a 6'10 245# McDAA even pretend to imitate the stats put up by another 6'10 245# kid (Lucas), who wasnt even ranked in the Top100? Does "paraphernalia" and Bragg's performance bust make anyone else who roots for the kid & KU to stop and say "hmm?" But hey, can I use the argument about where ther's smoke, there's fire? So where there's paraphernalia, there was usage? Or does the smoke/fire argument only apply to John Calipari?

@drgnslayr Not just the athletes! I remember we Liberal Arts students in the Honors Program with bifocals had to fight the girls off!

@ralster said:

So why is it a widespread fact that if you get hurt on the job and you go for medical evaluation, most employers require a urine drug test?

It is actually not a drug test to determine issues associated with the injury. It is a drug test designed to prove that the employee was violating a rule of employment, giving an emplyer grounds for discharge for cause.

@ralster

Where employees operate equipment (cars, trucks, forklifts... etc etc) it should be in their employers' rights to require drug testing because of the connection to impairment and the risk to follow.

But this has gone far beyond the risks associated with operating equipment. Corporations now use it as one more leverage tool against employees... giving them an easier way to fire employees and/or control them.

Concerning Carlton... if he is regularly consuming pot it is hard to believe his game has gone unaffected by doing so. This is all an assumption that he is a regular user... If he is, most likely his game has suffered to some degree. We are talking about physical, mental and emotional levels in relationship to his performance. He may have lost some motivation to improve and put in extra work to do so. He may run a bit slower, lost a bit of hand/eye coordination, too. He may be more likely to forget key strategies given to him by his coaches.

I'm not going to be the one that POINTS A FINGER at Carlton on this. It is unfair without knowing the facts of this case.

I don't believe he will be held off the hardwoods because of the misdemeanor paraphernalia charge. I believe he is being held out until drug testing is complete. If I am correct, and if he has now been tested, we will probably know the results by next Monday.

If he is guilty, it doesn't necessarily mean Carlton will be cut from the team. Good chance that the determination of his staying or going will be all on him. Will he offer to enter a drug rehab class? If his problem is deemed more severe... will he offer to enter a drug rehab program.... most likely requiring him to reside within the program?

I'm curious how this all plays out. How willing is Bill to take a chance on Carlton moving forward? Bill has a good heart and he tends to want to use the game of basketball to help young players wherever possible. Kicking Carlton off the team and ruining his reputation is not the first thing Bill will want to do, but most of it will depend on Carlton. Does he feel remorseful? Does he want to stop his habits? Bill can't and won't stick out his own neck too far, and why should he?

Now someone also posted that pot has "dozens of medicinal uses"...really? Because I have never seen a list of medicinal uses that stretches past "24", to qualify the statement regarding dozen(s). Boy, howdy, I've heard of about half a dozen actual uses. Never learned of any such list at the Univ.ofKS School of Medicine, who pride themselves on teaching us to follow evidence-based, fact-based practice guidelines. So, this of course begets another question, if there are purportedly all these great benefits to pot, WHY then do we not have BigPharma all over this, and purifying and synthesizing various offshoot cousin compounds that truly enhance those "medicinal uses" in a more potent manner? And why would we thus cling to the archane form of ingestion of smoking it? Please explain? Ever heard of K2? Its recreational creation, not medicinal.

But if you truly want to see more states legalize pot so people can smoke it (because the people that could actually use it medicinally for those few uses is a very small fraction of the general population)--> here's what you do, especially during these times of absolutely wrecked state budgets due to escalating social burdens & strains: You point to the states where it is legalized, and point to the hundreds of millions of $ in tax revenues generated, & tell the voting public just how much better schools and roads & infrastructure could be if we had that kind of big money!

I heard Colo raked in over $600million from taxes. I'm sure you could sway enough of the gullible American public to get pot legalized in your state SOON! Ive heard many states are in dire straits from a budget standpoint...I think most of the nation will go "flourescent green" on that usa map. Forget the medicinal uses crap & focus on the $. Havent we learned what makes this nation run?

@mayjay

I fought girls off every second I was in college. At least... I did in my dreams.

@ralster alright, i see you. nice under handed dig at what I was saying. Its cool. But I gotta reply back.

Heres an excerpt from this article ↗ I encourage you to read it and do some fact checking, homework.

"During the same period, Du Pont was developing cellophane, nylon, and dacron from from fossil fuels. Du Pont held the patents on many synthetics and became a leader in the development of paint, rayon, synthetic rubber, plastics, chemicals, photographic film, insecticides and agricultural chemicals.

From the Du Pont 1937 Annual Report we find a clue to what started to happen next: "The revenue raising power of government may be converted into an instrument for forcing acceptance of sudden new ideas of industrial and social reoganization".

Ok, enter William Randolph Hearst. Hearst's company was a major consumer of the cheap tree-pulp paper that had replaced hemp paper in the late 19th century. The Hearst Corporation was also a major logging company, and produced Du Pont's chemical-drenched tree pulp paper, which yellowed and fell apart after a short time. Fueled by the advertising sold to the petrochemical industries, Hearst Newspapers were also known for their sensationalist stories. Hearst despised poor people, black people, chinese, hindus, and all other minorities. Most of all he hated Mexicans. Pancho Villa's cannabis-smoking troops had reclaimed some 800,000 acres of prime timberland from Hearst in the name of the mexican peasants. And all of the low-quality paper the company planned to make by deforesting it's vast timber holdings were in danger of being replaced by low-cost, high quality paper made from hemp."

I would also like to stress that I am not condoning the use of recreational marijuana for athletic sports, for the work place, for anything that requires an adult to be well, an adult. BUT, I dont think recreational use should be demonized the way you are going about it. Its taboo and illegal for absolutely one reason and I provided that link for you above.

@HighEliteMajor true that man. always sharks in the water

@mayjay Then why wouldnt such a rule by an employer get totally shot down by an attorney, if it wasnt based in some fact about pot's effects on human performance, judgement, reaction time? Is that widespread practice based on a vacuum of fact? Because the practice of requiring a UA would have surely disappeared, due to all the lost court cases, right? But I havent seen much change in 20+yrs. But of course, mine is only an anecdotal observation, but nonetheless, what I'm reporting on here is indeed widespread practice currently...

@Lulufulu But for the sake of the voting public (the ones who'll turn that map near-fully green), I would make a gentleman's bet that most of the public has NO clue about that paper from hemp thing. They arent voting the way they do based on that old situation that is now older than most living people.

You can sway just enough of the swing voters to legalize it by selling the hard fact of BIG $ revenue, always relevant, and relevant right now.

@ralster

"WHY then do we not have BigPharma all over this, and purifying and synthesizing various offshoot cousin compounds that truly enhance those “medicinal uses” in a more potent manner?"

Pharma isn't about healing or helping people. Pharma is 100% about making profit. I'm not just offering my thoughts on this.... all of pharma operates as corporations and through corporate law. It is actually REQUIRED by pharma to be only about profits because it is written in their responsibilities in their corporate charters and bylaws. By their own laws, pertaining to their formation and existence, they are required to seek out profit returns for their stockholders.

In order for pharma to have a drug qualified for sale it must pass through insane amounts of testing and red tape... most of it having LITTLE to do with possible effectiveness or adverse effects. Govt approvals today (I believe) typically cost from $600 million to over $1 billion. Even though pharma complains about the high costs, they then are not only able to monopolize on their medications, they are also able to keep smaller companies out of their business because of the costs.

Pot research has gone on for decades. But none of it qualifies as research by our govt because they intentionally create research scenarios requiring outrageous costs in order that they can maintain their total control and dominance. And... as many think... govt and pharma are ONE! Just research what industry spends the most on lobbying Washington.... that would be the AMA and related medical industries, by a long shot! They OWN DC!

Pot and THC have been around forever, and in the general sense, belong as common property with well-noted use for many health-related reasons, making them "obvious" and restricting patent claims. I believe this has already been tested to some degree in patent court.

What I am expecting.... perhaps even with President Trump... is the possibility that Trump maintains his promise to be the "law and order" president, translating into "all federal laws will be upheld." So expect feds to come into all of these pot states and start busting it all up.

Stage two was partially discussed this morning when Trump met with pharma execs. He stated his desire to killing up to 80% of the regulations surrounding pharma. If so, he creates the pathway for pharma to legalize medicinal pot in the same vein as other drugs. So pharma will end up in complete control of weed and THC. Pharma will setup some bogus trials and our govt will decide weed/THC/cannabinoids suddenly have miraculous healing qualities!

In order for pharma to make weed into one of their drugs for selling, they will first make sure they completely "f-up" their new baby. Pharma is based on synthesizing elements and compounds. This is where most "side effects" come from. Drugs are not typically most effective when they are isolated. These elements and compounds need to be with their natural host compounds in order to buffer from many side effects. They can also help stimulate results in some cases, too.

By the way, pharma will patent some of their synthetic versions of THC. This is something they can protect. "Synth pot" is the future for these giants. For all of those who have positive experiences with pot, don't expect synth pot to be anything as positive.

Here is the kicker.... pharma doesn't want drugs to NOT have side effects! Most patients who are prescribed a drug for ongoing use end up having to take several other drugs to battle the side effects. Pharma does what other for-profit corporations do.... they build in functional obsolescence. The formula for big business is NEVER to sell you a product just ONCE!

Note for readers: No beef with @Lulufulu or @mayjay ,they contribute a great deal here, always thought provoking, and great reads. Lulufulu just made me think from several angles at once...

To explain my stance, specifically on the "medicinal", I think it mostly reflects how we were taught to think (at dear old KU), regarding medical practice with patients. One isnt going to go out in the world and be some sort of maverick or therapeutic trailblazer. You dont guinea pig with patients. If you have novel research ideas, you work in medical research to prove your ideas.

So, until there's some true paradigm-shift with a vast majority-approved & proven way to change what you give to patients, you'll see practitioners adhere to the standard-of-care, which loosely defined is: what would 19 out of 20 docs do in a given situation? Which also implies, "beware" of that 1/20 guy. And, with your hard-earned license, there is always lurking the chance for scrutiny by the State Board of Healing Arts, which demands adherence to that standard of care for a given symptom. And the KSBHA is a very conservative governing body, as are most.

So, as always, agree or disagree with mine or anyone's idea, people make up your own minds. We come to discuss & foster thought/ask questions. Any sarcasm is purely contextual, relative, and in that moment.

Apologies for the verbosity!

@ralster I was only commenting on the routine drug use tests where unrelated to an injury, but where employers just try to fog it all up. No opinion on pot's effects. I have seen at least two users close to me who I have long suspected were seriously damaged by heavy pot use in motivation, problem solving skills, and overall judgment. I don't have any issues with your position.

I believe, however, the liquor industry's product harms its victims far beyond anything pot has done. Follow the money--to the ABC stores and suppliers for my suspect of who bankrolls the true antilegalization effort.

@mayjay You are 💯 % accurate abt the use & abuse of 🍺. Hands down the most abused & dangerously available drug on the 🌎 planet. It's so much about the 💰 money that the business is even owned & operated by the govt in many states. Pot will be as well sooner or later. All in the auspices of revenue enhancement... Yeah right...

You guys have some good points on the pot argument. I personally am split on the matter I think the revenue would do good things. But I also have seen first hand that it kills brain cells. One other big issue is that I read about last year is the number motor vehicle accidents involving weed has increased in Colorado and Washington bye nearly 50%. They have no way to tell how much is too much like the .008 for alcohol and it is causing fatal accidents, not saying that we don't have the same issue with drunks.

@kjayhawks Accidents due to weed = fender benders in the taco bell drive through

@mayjay

Gee,,,you should have seen us engineers...

@DanR lmao that was good man.

Let me preface by saying that I have never smoked pot or done any other drug even when I attended college in the 70s when it was very accessible and you were almost shunned if you did not smoke pot. I did get almost high a couple of time from second hand smoke at the old Kemper arena while attending concerts.

I do understand that under certain conditions, pot can help with pain management and it work by dulling the senses, which could be a desirable thing if you have a terminal condition with a lot of pain but definitely not a good thing if you are doing work that requires full awareness. This is the reason why employers require employees to be drug free, one insurance claim for a company that does not have this policy can make that firm un-insurable. One firm I worked for had a program that drug tested employees at random; if your name was selected, you had 2 hours to get to an approved testing facility. One time when one of my engineers was on his way out of town on company business, the insurance company had a lab tech. waiting for him at the airport in Memphis. This is the way the real world works and if you don't agree with this type of testing, you have the option of seeking work elsewhere...it is really that simple.

More to the point, I saw one time a discussion panel with pot advocated and medical doctors. The pot advocates indicated that pot was the only feasible solution to many conditions and the doctors unanimously stated that there were drugs available that were considerably more effective than pot for most conditions and a lot of the so called medicinal uses are just excuses to smoke pot.

I really don't have an issue if someone wants to smoke pot as long as that usage does not place my well being at risk, say, by driving while under the numbing effects of pot. I have seen first hand way too many people ruin their lives by pot addiction and even more so, by graduating to heavier drugs when pot was not enough. Now, as long as the laws of a state dictate that use of pot/drugs is not allowed, them you need to obey the law, work towards changing it or move to another state...your choice...but as long as the law is the law, we must all respect it and be willing to live with consequences if we don't.

Coach Self indicated in his presser that the staff is constantly reminding students about rules, regulations and the law, so it is safe to assume that Bragg knew he was breaking the law and by doing so, he placed not only himself and his future in a bad spot but the program as well. Unfortunately, we seem to be living in a place and time where personal responsibility is no longer the law of the land and individuals now expect someone else to do the hard work to pay for their needs with no effort on their part...free tuition, free cell phones, free cars, free house,, free everything seems to be the new entitlement and most of us that work hard for a living seem to be ones paying for it..

This is my rant for the day, no offense intended to anyone.

9 times out of 10 it recreational. Same as alcohol. It's just different legally. The problem isn't the legality it's the morality. The problem is, if you don't agree with the law you change it. Don't break it. Difficult to get thru a young one's head while they are bullet proof.

@JayHawkFanToo Agreed 100%. What my 83y/o immigrant dad picked up from the then-in-charge ww2 generation (in 1961) was: In America, there's no such thing as a free lunch. You work for everything you have. You get but a chance, an opportunity to make your dreams come true.

Dad made lifelong friendships with some of his professors at NMSU, then later at UNM. Very dear old folks (to me) with an ingrained sense of what was right and a sense of properness & decorum. They knew their manners.

Those qualities have seemed to dwindle in subsequent generations, & the nation has paid/is paying the price. I almost want to ask some, not all, BabyBoomers (flower kids), "just how much do ya wanna rebel? Are ya happy now?" We were all teenagers & young adults who challenge the status-quo, we get that, everybody goes thru that phase. Most figure out then, how the world really works, & then strive to find their place in it.

My generation, the genX'ers have have a vantage pt in the middle: knew their GParents (ww2 Gen), saw what their parents did, then what? I see a varaition & split in my own gen. Many didnt pass along proper parenting skills & knowledge, thats for dang sure (what is a common cold?) I think this crossroads generation (genX) shares some blame for some of the incredulous beliefs put forth by some Millenials, about free everything, as they would be our kids. Hey, we tried to give the world 80s hair metal, which worked for about 10yrs, haha...(but wait...those guys could actually play their guitars...). The cliche now on Millenials is they want everything free. Uh, work ethic? Any understanding of economics? During this strange-candidate election cycle, I watched with utter disbelief as they threw their lot in for Bernie, a man who, at the height of McCarthyism & the ColdWar, actually chose to honeymoon in the then-USSR. The Soviet Union, as in jackboots crushing your face, 50,000 tanks, & NO freedoms. And Bernie was enamored with that? I thought he, as a concept, was far more dangerous to America as we know it, than HRClinton, who is simply an establishment politician, nothing more, as became obvious. But her leaked audio recording during Democrat Primaries needs to be heard by ALL Millenials: "...he's (Bernie) making all sorts of promises. Cant have everything for free, just not economically possible. Its not reality..."...& this from a Democrat. As I told many friends last year, I wish I could put a friendly arm around dear Bernie, and say "my good man--What were you thinking? Do you need a class in 'Americanism'?! Have you forgotten what America is, & what its stood for? Or are you just wholesale rejecting this nations ideals, for that other one? Do you know why the Colonies broke from Grt.Britain, in the first place?

See how far we've come from what the ww2 generation knew, practised, & believed? No nation is perfect, but its all relative, man! Go visit the 3rd world, or some communist countries firsthand, then come back to good ole USA with a grownup perspective.

For the nation, its not about Bernie, Hillary, Donald, Ted, or Marco. Its about the living generations somehow coming to a consensus for the sake of the nation. And its got to be American values, not anybody elses, that drives it. People also need to realize mankind is hundreds of years not ready for some pie-in-sky borderless utopia, why? Because our warlike, territorial tendencies as a species, would destroy some ideal utopia. Proof? Look at the 20th century. How far have we come since ancient times, with our mentality? Hmm? That same ww2 generation actually broke the will of Japan. I didnt realize that the napalm fire-bombing of civilian areas of Tokyo killed est150-200,000 in 1 raid. And this was prior to actually using 2 atomic bombs that killed 50,000 apiece. The ethics of the time was trying to save 500k-1mil US lives in an invasion of Japan, who was preparing to lose 10's of millions in homeland defense.

Occasionally, I still get to help a 90yr old ww2 veteran. The Millenials need to figure out how the world works, find their place in it, and get to work on their dreams, like the rest of us pions and ants are doing. Life is short. And America has already been set up (& saved & preserved) for you, by generations prior, so you'd have your opportunity too.

What did Self say about "caretaker of the legacy"? Respect for the program & how far its come. Same applies to the USA.

So, trying to bring this discussion to a close, I dearly hope Mr. Bragg, since all lives do indeed matter, isnt making bad choices that will hurt him and his chance(s) to become successful at whatever he sets his mind to. I've been hard on him, partly because I have a 28yr old, and an 18yr old, & I just hate to see kids making dumb mistakes, especially the kind that permanently close doors/opportunities for the kid. I hope he turns it around.

RCJH

@tis4tim

In my layman's opinion, it would by definition NOT be an ILLEGAL conspiracy to use the rules LEGALLY to stop someone or group in any field of activity. A team plays defense on the court, because the rules allow it. It is not a conspiracy to play defense. Similarly, it would not be a conspiracy to seek out KU violations of rules in order to defend against KU setting a record number of consecutive conference titles. Ergo it would not be conspiracy theorizing to speculate that someone else might be doing what you were concerned about. Instead, it might be called using reason.

The mil-int-media complexes reputed half century long misinformational and mind control use of "conspiracy theory" continues to confuse a lot persons.

I hope we have done nothing wrong warranting taking away a title, if we are lucky enough to set the record.

Rock Chalk!

@ralster

Right on.

I could be wrong... but it just looks like he hasn't been selective about his inner circle. Hang with a bad crowd and bad things happen.

He really needs our team leader/captain on his arse 24/7. From this moment forward he doesn't have a personal life.... he has a team life... so he is always with another responsible player.

I suspect that he lacks maturity and the ability to say "no" so he needs someone around, 24/7, to say no for him.

@drgnslayr said:

@mayjay

I fought girls off every second I was in college. At least... I did in my dreams.

I am sure that in your dreams you no doubt failed to fight them off... Unless you were the odd duck who fantasized about not "gettin' some"!

@jaybate-1.0 said:

Similarly, it would not be a conspiracy to seek out KU violations of rules.....

Ah, but it would be illegal to conspire to obtain documents protected as private under the law, or to inveigle (thank you, 30 Days To A More Powerful Vocabulary, circa 1971-72) persons with a duty not to disclose confidential matters to do so.

@mayjay

Isn't a conspiracy by definition illegal? I am not sure you can have a "legal conspiracy"...if it is legal it is not a conspiracy, right?

Does anyone remember Vicks short interview not to long ago? He said Frank always calls to check on him, if he goes to the mall Frank calls to see if he made it. And then again to see if he got home. Hmmmm maybe now we know why.

@JayHawkFanToo Well, I think it is legal to conspire, as you dream by the fire, and face unafraid the plans that you made, walking in a winter wonderland......

@JayHawkFanToo

Context appears significant. In a legal context it would appear conspiracy would refer to pursuit of an illegal end . Outside a legal context, I would have to guess that maybe the CIA's attorneys told them that outside a legal context they could use "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theory" in media to mean anything they wanted. But it's just a guess.

http://cjonline.com/news/sports/2017-01-31/ku-police-clarify-timeline-carlton-bragg-drug-paraphernalia-charge ↗

Check out the time line

@mayjay

Yes, but why would some one commit a felony to prove we violated some eligibility regulation?

Seems an improbable tradeoff.

Hypothetically speaking, the minute they did that then they would be at our mercy.

@Crimsonorblue22

This timeline is not an issue I am qualified to explore fruitfully.

I try to explain things without assumptions of illegalities of conspiracy and let the legal experts handle the rest.

@mayjay

Seriously.... I was a late bloomer. But I finally blossomed and was stung by my loving bee!

@JayHawkFanToo

"Isn’t a conspiracy by definition illegal? I am not sure you can have a "legal conspiracy"…if it is legal it is not a conspiracy, right?"

To "conspire" is totally legal. That is why you hear charges against a conspiracy explained with a "tail" behind it.

"...conspiracy to commit a felony"

"...conspiracy to defraud the government"

"...conspiracy to kill the President"

I believe only certain, specific conspiracies are crimes in themselves. Conspiring to kill someone (the President or anyone else) is a crime.

You can conspire to do something legal... for example... you conspire with your wife this morning to share a picnic in the nice weather today.

In the dictionary "conspire" is defined first around doing something wrong, evil or illegal. This definition is first since it is usually USED in context with something wrong, evil or illegal.

The second definition is more general.... "to act or work together toward the same result or goal."

@Crimsonorblue22

"He said Frank always calls to check on him, if he goes to the mall Frank calls to see if he made it. And then again to see if he got home."

That is interesting. I don't recall reading that.

Maybe Frank is more of a leader for this team than I give him credit for!

@drgnslayr probably saw it on spectra sports, old twc

@Crimsonorblue22

Source below which includes Vick's comment about Frank!

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2017/jan/17/tom-keegan-lagerald-vick-interesting-book-quiet-co/?print ↗

@drgnslayr yeah there is a lot of stuff we don't see. From hearing Bill talk, I think he views Frank as the leader despite his non vocal nature.

@drgnslayr

By definition the term conspiracy applies only when more than one individual act together towards an illegal end. If you are acting towards a legal end then it is not a conspiracy...you agree to go to the movies, you team up...you plan...you schedule...you decide...but you don't conspire...unless he individuals are minors and plan to sneak In to watch an X-rated movie...which is illegal. Using conspiracy when the end is legal is done frequently but still a misuse of the word.

@JayHawkFanToo

verb (used without object), conspired, conspiring.
1. to agree together, especially secretly, to do something wrong, evil, or illegal:
They conspired to kill the king.
2. to act or work together toward the same result or goal.

However... we just don't hear it in use for anything besides evil.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/conspire ↗

@HawkChamp

I think Bill sees this as "Frank's team."

I think basketball mimics the culture that surrounds it.

Bill is from Oklahoma. People in the Midwest tend to be "independent minded."

Bill definitely believes in "team defense" and "team offense" but to just a point. His hardcore support for M2M defense is based most on guys being held "personally accountable." I'm not trying to say there is an extreme difference, but it just feels like he is a blended philosophy of independent responsibilities along with team responsibilities.

Zone defense is very much a dependent, team-flavored defense. I believe one of the positives of playing zone is that it may help players get into more of a team concept and it might even promote higher motivating moments as a team. I think it feels more like "team defense" over M2M, even though there has to be weak side help to some level to be successful at M2M. And, of course, a high-pressure M2M can involve double-team traps, etc.

This is a bit abstract in thinking.

I'm curious how people in here feel and think about it?

@drgnslayr I think your view on zone defense is pretty accurate. M2M is entirely predicated on how well guys can guard one on one. If they can't then M2M isnt for them.

I want Bill to go to it when he has to, but only then. If we can get a W tonight, Saturday and our two road games next week with M2M, then do it. I feel as though we should only use it to throw our opponent off guard at critical moments, such as in an elite eight game. I know this team has the potential to be a really good zone team, but the element of surprise is always something to consider. Now if we are down ten tonight and we can't get a stop, then of course we try something different. But until then, I say only use it situationally.

@HawkChamp I think if we have to protect ll we go zone

@Crimsonorblue22 right, but only if we are in danger of losing. If we maintain a 5-10 point lead through the second half, then there is no need to switch.

Actually, the best case scenario for tonight might be that we have LL get in foul trouble and we substitute players and shift defense around to accommodate the situation. It's good practice and experience for us moving forward because we will always battle with post depth the rest of this year.

I want to see Dwight and Mitch rack up some minutes. They need to face tall, quality bigs.

If we can do all of that and still nail the "W" that sounds PERFECT to me!