Okay... two miserable games in a row.
We all need to vent a little. We know this isn't the end of the season, just the start, perhaps a rocky start.
So how about venting with a word or phrase to describe the last two games. Hopefully keep it general, not targeting individual players.
Here is mine:
ONE BIG SUCK!
Actually.... two!
Hmmmm... As long as we win the Big 12 again, I'll get over these two early season debacles. Probably.
SOFT
Long season. I’m hoping the tin man finds his heart, the lion his courage, and the scarecrow in charge his intelligence.
These losses will just help us to appreciate the wins. This team has a lot of holes in it. A LOT. Let's watch the genius mask those holes. Until Doke adds something more than a drop-step dunk to his offensive repertoire and learns to protect the rim the team will live and die by the 3.
On a side note: Newman is holding this offense back, imo.
7 man rotation with no front court depth is getting exposed especially when players are not yet mentally tough. KU has had 7 man rotation in the past but had players like Tyshawn, Releford, R-Rob, Kevin Young, they all had grit. This squad has not gotten it yet.
Bill Self has a real problem on his hands, will be a rocky ride. I am hoping that Preston and DeSousa become eligible sooner rather than later.
@Kcmatt7 I think the ball sticks with him when he gets it. He has a quick trigger. Drives at the most in opportune times and doesn't know when he's in too deep and to stop, pull up, and get the ball back out swinging around the perimeter. It appears to me like he goes rogue.
EDIT: Ya know, on second thought, Svi have a few of those same qualities, too. Maybe they are selfishly playing for their draft stock?
Non Aggressive. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Keep this up and we'll be a 16 seed, but then win the first game ever for a 16 seed.
KU was unlucky insofar as it ran into two teams that were in the zone and played their best games of the year. Arizona State made some highly unlikely shots that another day probably don't go in and I was not too crazy about some of the call either. So much for the excuses.
This KU team badly needs concentration, composure and poise, something a team with the available experience should have. With over 5 minutes left, the team got within 6 and had the ball and I was thinking...here comes the run...only to have Malik turn the ball over and it never got closer after that. New Mexico played a similar small ball style with basically 6 players, so we cannot really say they had an advantage there. When a team is making shots from the outside, the key is to deny them the shots but the defense has been sub-par in the last two games. A Coach Self indicated, the team right now is soft.
Look like DeSouza will be joining the team soon but I just don't see him contributing much until late in the season,. The physical requirements are year ahead of HS and I would be surprised he can play more that a few minutes against Division I bigs and he will also be way behind in the playbook and probably less effective than Lightfoot; I sure hope I am wrong. Preston would be the most desirable addition since he has been practicing with the team, is more physically ready and more familiar with e playbook, but with each passing day the chances get smaller.
Maybe this loss will light a fire under their collective butts and make them try harder...and smarter. Playing like this will not win the conference; no way, no how, no m'am.
@JayHawkFanToo It looked like they had a fire lit under them when they ran up the 15-2 lead. Didn't it? I was impressed with their hustle and fire for a couple of minutes.....then they just let up.
KU is stil overrated at 13th. ASU picked up 5 first place votes for beating KU at Allen Fieldhouse. Crazy how beating KU gets teams instant respect.
Has anyone else noticed that after a football player joins, KU has lost all games? Coincidence? Obviously but still...
Feel bad for Sosinski, he can seem to catch a break; he joins the basketball team and it goes on a losing streak...
JayHawkFanToo said:
Yep. 11 spots rise for them, 11 spots drop for KU...of course there was the loss to Washington.
I'm actually surprised we didn't fall further. - -Two losses this week - one home game and then one suppose to be pretty much a home game. - I actually thought we would be like 16th-17th.
Arizona losing three games in a week cost them to drop out completely .
As I have mentioned before actually the rankings in the regular season doesn't really mean Jack other then the fans being able to gloat - -beat their chest like OH look at us. - -
What we need to want or should want is like everyone else - end the season with a W - that means we won the NCAA tourney and THAT'S what it's all about right? - Who really cares where your at in the regular season - other then possibly more towards the end for seeding purposes. - on a Side note KU has no quality wins this year to speak of - I guess you might say Syracuse - -maybe maybe Kentucky - -but with Kentucky as young as they are and it being the 1st game of the year on a neutral site ehhhh not so much. - Others then those - we really don't have that signature win yet, of course when your a blue blood like us - harder for us to get those - it's the others guys if they knock us off - then it's a HUGE signature win for them.
We brought this drop in rankings all by ourself - -Like Coach said now we get the chore of working ourself back up. - -Actually I think we are probably ranked just about right given the way we have played so far - it's ok - -long season, just got to get it straightened out. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Normore was an All_state PG in HS and played basketball for 2 years at WSU before deciding to concentrate on football the next year and transferred to KU when WSU ended the football program. Larry Brown had recruited him in HS he and he wanted to play for KU but KU already had Cedric Hunter and Mark Turgeon on board.
What gets to me is our guard failure in these games. That isn't going to be fixed by suddenly getting two post players. I'm mostly talking about defense.
There is the argument that our guards have to protect against the drive to save Doke from fouls. But... they didn't do that either!
All areas of our defense sucked. Perimeter shot defense. Sucked. Defense against the drive. Sucked. Transition defense. Sucked.
I was wondering if our defensive switching was actually playing against us yesterday. We tended to switch any screen around the perimeter. I was wondering if this group shouldn't be switching and should be fighting over screens instead. ASU made shots, some from Wichita but they were mostly all unguarded shots, no hands in the face, no hard close with a hand in the face. I've seen a lot of comments about ASU being lucky to make some shots. I would disagree and point to any of their prior wins. They shoot freely whenever.
In the ASU game, we lost because their guards were much quicker than ours. Whether that is always the reality, or we just didn't come prepared, it was evident in this game.
I think they were too quick for us to fight through the screens. I thought we did the right thing.
But... we never defended against the drive. We were always totally out of position to do so. You can tell that when you see a defense that doesn't even come close to be able to try to draw charges. Heck... we never had one of our players anywhere near being in front of their driving guards.
In order to defend against the drive, our guards need to get up there (in their grills) and HEDGE against their driving priorities. I can't think of one drive they made to their left! Did you notice that? Where was our scouting? Why didn't we hedge for the right side drive? Get up in their grills and challenge their crossovers. Few college players can execute a decent crossover. Very few.
If you replay the game, you will see our guards pulling back on their guards and with ZERO hedging. The very WORST strategy for stopping drives! The WORST! Their guards could then pick up speed, while our defenders are standing flatfooted, and then only need to curl around them to finish.
Did you notice their drives almost always ended up being "blow bys?" Their guards would finish near the rim and not even be challenged because we didn't have a defender who could meet them at their release points.
Udoka is averaging less than 2.5 fouls per game and has not fouled out in any game; he has not been in real foul trouble yet.
The biggest problem KU has offensively is that we can't get easy shots consistently. If the jumpers are falling, life is good, and we can probably run any team in the country out of the building.
But if the shot goes cold, we don't really have a backup plan to score. Doke isn't a consistent post scorer, so if we are shooting blanks from outside, it gets really hard to make things happen on the offensive end.
Defensively, this isn't a team full of great or even above average defenders. Devonte is above average, but in his role playing 38 mpg at the point, he's probably closer to average because he has to save something on that end. Vick is above average, but he's playing out of position at the four, so he can't always take advantage of that. Unlike Josh, he isn't necessarily built to handle the bigger players all the time because he's giving up 2-3 inches every night.
Newman and Svi are average-ish, Doke is foul prone, and Mitch can't bang with most 5's. Garrett is also above average, but he doesn't help us offensively right now because he can't space the floor with his shot. Clay Young is undersized, but can steal some minutes inside against lesser bigs, but there is a risk of exposing him too much and having him become ineffective as the season wears on and a good scouting report on him starts to circulate.
Thankfully, these problems can be fixed, and the solutions aren't far away. Sam Cunliffe should help in the backcourt right away because he should help stagger the minutes a little bit more so Devonte and Lagerald aren't playing nearly every minute. That lets our two best perimeter defenders sell out a little bit more on that end - the difference between playing hard for 32 minutes and playing hard for 38 minutes is enormous.
The other, less certain fix, is of course Billy Preston. Preston is bigger and stronger than Mitch, and more skilled than Doke. He changes how we can score because he can go get buckets on the block if necessary. He commands a double team inside.
Let's think back to the 2006 team that got knocked out in the first round of the NCAA tournament by Bradley. That team was the same one that the following year went to the Elite Eight, and two years later won the whole thing. So why did that group get bounced in Round 1 as freshmen, then go all the way to the Elite Eight as sophomores? Darrell Arthur.
Not because Shady was the best player on those teams - he was probably the third best. But he changed the way that team could play because he could post up and generate easy shots when guys weren't hitting jumpers. He could draw fouls and get guys on the line (and in foul trouble). Right now, this team lacks that in the same way that the 2006 team lacked that. Billy Preston's skill set changes this team from the 2006 first round eliminated Hawks into the 2007 Elite Eight version.
The only question is whether he ever sees the floor for this team. If he doesn't, this team will run hot and cold with its jumpshot. If he does, we can go back to discussing the weather in San Antonio in late March and early April.
@justanotherfan TLDR; Flawed roster
I disagree with everyone - the first five minutes showed how good out guards can be defensively. Honestly, that was the best five minute stretch of defense I've seen since 08. The real question is, why did they do it for only five minutes?
Hawk8086 said:
@JayHawkFanToo It looked like they had a fire lit under them when they ran up the 15-2 lead. Didn't it? I was impressed with their hustle and fire for a couple of minutes.....then they just let up.
Sometimes a hot start is the worst thing for a team. Makes them complacent. Of course a cold start, like the Washington game causes doubt and leads to what happened there, so I'm confused now!
Maybe the guards can sell out & defend the 3 as a primary defensive goal. Good guards are going around us anyway. Let them take mid range jumpers which no one in college seems to want to take consistently. The last two losses we gave up so many killer threes.
This group is going to have to settle defensively by giving something up. Just not athletic or deep enough to maintain 40 min of quality defense.
Maybe we can stop the rediculous turnovers too.
The defense is terrible, especially at the guard spots which really isn’t surprising when you look at how bad we were last year on defense with two highly athletic guys in Mason and Jackson. Our players won’t look like D1 players when playing a good a team. Malik Newman maybe the biggest recruiting flop in history (top 5 National). No way he plays in the NBA no chance, I bet he rides the pine a year from now and transfers. Lagerald must turn into the dog that Self is talking about. He has all the tools to do so. Unless Billy can go and he is a Trob type player no way we make it outta the first weekend in March without hitting a high number of threes. If Self makes this team B12 champions, he is the best coach to ever live. Question, Will Bill Self still have more B12 titles than loses at home bye the end of the season? I honestly think not, I could see us losing 3 more home games, this team will be Selfs second double digit loss team. All this being said we are due a down year. The streak has to end at some point.
@JayHawkFanToo Sosinki is the first Jayhawk basketball player to be 0-2 ever?
@approxinfinity I bet we have started 0-2 at some point in our 100 and some odd years. I know we have started 1-2 several times.
@approxinfinity @kjayhawks Guys, guys … the last time we started 0-2 was in the 1987-88 season. When we won the national championship.
Close but not quite correct.
KU beat Chaminade at the Maui invitational to start the season 1-0 and then lost the next 2 games to Iowa and Illinois at the same tournament for a 1-2 record. It did go to win the NCAA though. :smile:
Considering KU seldom loses 2 games in a row, much less at home, I am pretty sure it has not happened in the last 30+ years...unless KU had a transfer that started just before on of those rare occasions.
@JayHawkFanToo Darn it. I trusted my memory again. Should have used that simple thing called google.
JayHawkFanToo said:
That was familiarity with AFH and cockiness. After Arizona State settled the team lost its poise.
So hustling and playing with great energy is being cocky? You and I must have watched two different games. I watched the KU game on Sunday December 10th at 1 where they played how we thought they could play in the first five minutes. How about you?
Horribly disappointed and we are not use to this, but the good news is that its really early in the season. They have time to decide what they want to do going forward. They need some hunger. They need some stark, raving, mad dog starving desire to win. These are some nasty lumps, but we just learned momentum can swing really fast.
They're capable, now the question is can they play up to their much higher capability? We shall see.
KU made its first 5 shots and took an early lead but after shots stop going in the wheels fell off the wagon and the team lost its poise and concentration and not only missed shots, it had silly turnovers.
After KU went up 15-2 three and a half minutes into the game, it was outscored by Arizona State by 23 points the rest of the game. You are telling me the team played with energy and confidence for all of 3-1/2 minutes?
I don't like this alternate universe where WSU is ranked 10 places ahead of Kansas. There's something dirty and disgusting about this. And one more note to Self and the team:
DON'T LOSE AT HOME ANY MORE. IT TICKS ME OFF.
@JayHawkFanToo nope I said five minutes. I know it doesn't fit the current narrative but there was a definite difference in the next thirty five minutes energy and intensity wise. A friend watching it with me saw the same thing.
@HawkChamp said
nope I said five minutes. I know it doesn’t fit the current narrative but there was a definite difference in the next thirty five minutes energy and intensity wise. A friend watching it with me saw the same thing.
Between the 3-1/2 minute (mine) and 5 minute mark (yours) KU was outscore 8-0, are you still saying it played well in those 1-1/2 minutes? I think not.
@JayHawkFanToo the point still stands regardless of how many minutes or seconds.
Didn't I say the same thing? I just called the first 3-1/2 minutes familiarity with AFH and cockiness, after that it was a complete collapse and KU was outscored by 23 points.
@JayHawkFanToo how did you come up with cockiness? That is the completely incorrect adjective.
How 'bout confidence? ''Tis the season
@Crimsonorblue22 to most everyone else, confidence is the correct word.
I realize that. Doke wasn't anywhere near their drivers when they finished at the hole. He couldn't challenge their shots because he wasn't close to them.
I just don't want to hear our guards use an excuse claiming they had to lay off guarding the trey shot in order to protect Doke from penetrating drives.
Svi’s wingspan is 6’5” no wonder he can’t defend anyone or protect his dribble. The t-Rex comparison isn’t too far off. Good thing he’s skinny, he’d have a hard time wiping his kester if he had a belly.
We're picking the bones off the flesh. We're not going to be an NBA All-star team. Still, I think this team can be a real good team, warts and all. Cunliffe will help keep the guys fresh on the perimeter, and should play good defense when he's in there. Now we have a pivot if Newman or Svi is struggling. De Sousa is a classic old style 4 with elite rebounding skills. He will help us when Doke gets in foul trouble. Two extra players in the rotation will allow us to play more aggressively. All is not lost - keep the faith.
If De Sousa comes in, I wonder what offense we will run.
Self just mentioned "making changes" and it sounds like he wants to slow down the pace and go back to "BAD BALL." Did anyone else catch this?
I get it. Our guards are playing ZERO defense! We've been putting all our emphasis on offense. So.... kill the offense!
If I squint my eyes and replay our last two games, it looks like we have 4 or 5 BGreenes out there!
This isn't my biggest worry (even though it is horrible). My biggest worry is about what I saw from Devonte for the past 3 years. Consistency was an issue. He can't be inconsistent and lead this team. It seems like he had a couple of hot games, then he let off the gas. Hot and cold will always be there... hustle is a constant! Using your head... is a constant!
Devonte, alone, needed to step up in these games and put the team on his back. He could have shredded both of these teams with his drive, which might have helped our guys get motivated on both sides of the court.
@drgnslayr I kind of want Bill to go full bad ball for a little while. Force the guards to drive and learn how to finish in the lane. After that, slowly loosen the rains and open the the trey again. But the first thing we have to do is prove to ourselves that we can score inside, even with a 4 guard lineup.
That and then just play hellacious D. Get these guys flying all over the court and create some havoc.
Yeah... there is no reason why we should be playing defense this lousy. We have enough team speed and should be showing high energy on d. We should be a Top 10 defensive team, especially concerning steals.
The energy just isn't there. And the spacing and hedging has been extremely horrible!
I hate to say it... but I'm with you... it may be necessary to go for BAD BALL and grind games.
Giving up 95 points at home to ASU?
What a friggin' joke!
Referenced this on today's @KUsports Hour... For those melting down about KU's defense, last year's was actually worse.
Bill Self last year: “I mean this is without question probably — not probably — it is the poorest defensive team that we’ve ever had.” Scott chasen ku sports reporter
Maybe what we thought we had in team speed isn't good enough. Washington and ASU have certainly cast doubt in our guys quickness abilities. I do think some of it is attributed to guys playing too many minutes. Vick & Graham have sat a total of 5 minutes in the past 3 games. I suppose that could be beneficial to them later in the year but its clear we need more balancing of the minutes. Cunliffe hopefully helps that as long as Newman comes back relatively soon. Just adding 1 post player could have a huge affect on minutes and therefore guys energy in games etc. This two game slump (3 if we count Cuse) could all be the consequence of having 7 guys and tired legs
@BeddieKU23 I think we have lulled ourselves to sleep by switching too much. We need to start hedging and trapping off of hedges like we do when we play 2 bigs. Then everyone else rotates hard and fast.
Presumptuous of you to state you know what is the correct word I wanted to write. I wrote cockiness not confidence and it is exactly what I meant; I even posted a link to the definition to point out the meaning I wanted to convey. We both have "opinions" which are just that, "opinions" and not facts. We both stated "opinions" and while different I did not tell you yours was wrong...too much to expect you to respect mine?
I mentioned that to someone that the constant switching made it seem like lazy defense. We got caught flat footed against quick guards who figured out how to attack the defense. Who knows if the alternative fighting through screens and sticking with their man would have made a difference but I would like to see something change because what we got isn't working.
Anyone else notice there are times Graham gets switched on the big in the lane? If a team starts recognizing that ridiculous switch we will pay for it. I really don't know what we are trying to accomplish with some of the switches
Spot on concerning too many minutes for some of our guys.
I think Sam will be a big help in relief of some guard minutes.
ASU guards looked a million times faster than our guards. But that is just this situation, this game. I don't like to give our guys any excuses, but too many minutes can give these guys rubber legs. And then what motivation did our guys have to play well against ASU? But ASU had plenty of motivation to play hard against us.
The real problem we had in this game, which resulted in making the ASU guards look must faster than ours, was caused by our guards defending horribly. Very poor technique. Spacing was horrible and no hedging against the obvious right side drives. We allowed their guards to pick up big driving speed and then SWOOSH they were past our guards!
I like your concept of falling asleep because of our high ball switches.
It allows our guys to play soft. It also allows our opponents to play harder because we aren't getting physical with them.
In both the last two games, we were outplayed. Totally.
We will have to learn to ADAPT DURING games. We can bash Duke and Coach K all we want, but hard to bash them about in-game changes. You see them call time out and then you see them try something else. Typically, we don't do that at Kansas. We have a kind of "elitist" attitude that we should never have to change our tactics... just keep grinding away at them and they will eventually work. This isn't just a Self issue. This is a Kansas issue.
@drgnslayr I hate high ball switches. It let's the offense dictate where they want to go and the pace they want to go there at.
It also hurts your help defense when one of your help defenders is running away as soon as the drive starts. There has been a pattern the last two games. First, create a switch. 2nd, immediately follow that switch with a REALLY high ball screen. That takes two help defenders out of the play almost immediately. 3rd, drive the ball and attempt to beat Doke to the rim.
It has resulted in too many layups that aren't being contested.
That same thing can play out differently if we hedge immediately instead of switch. First, when they do a little handoff up top, instead of the switch it triggers a rotation. If the defender can't fight through the handoff, and the player has an open drive, help defense plays off and we force a 3. If we rotate correctly, the man beat by the handoff will be rotating to defend the guy shooting the 3. He will probably be late and we will give up an open 3, but it shouldn't be a comfortable 3 pointer. This also leaves Doke at the rim for protection if the driver doesn't kick it out for 3.
If the defender doesn't get caught up in the handoff and forces the REALLY high ball screen, we can hedge and trap like we used to, they will have to make three timely passes to get it to a wide open guy.
If you have 5 - 6'8 guys who can guard everyone, sure switching makes sense. Otherwise, hedging is the way to go.
Look I get this a venting topic. Yet already looking to next year? Really? I know we are all fans and just want to win. Yet ask yourself this real question? What does KU basketball program mean to you?
Ever year KU defies logic. They are an adidas school trying to take on the Nike empire. Year after year they deliver. Oh they fall short of our glorious expectations. Yet they achieve greatness even if they fall shot of what us fan really want.
Yea it's not looking good on a National championship this year. However they are still our Jayhawks. Gentleman and ladies this isn't professional basketball we are talking about here. We are talking about kids here. Kids that chose to be a Jayhawk. To play in the holy grail of all basketball. ((((The Allen field house))))) Sure they lost at home and your upset, yet how do you think these kids feel?
So Young to face such disappointment in letting down their fans and history.
And all you can say is? (I can't wait till next year) really?
These are kids that chose to take on the mantle of Jayhawks. No easy burden.
Bite your tongues my friends.
Oh I want to say so much more but I'm going to bite my tongue. No matter what happens this season these KU kids slash Jayhawks deserve our love and fandom.
Suck up Jayhawks fans. KU basketball isn't just about winning. It's about creating men.
Sorry for the bad grammar. Maybe one to many beers.
@HighEliteMajor This is painfully true. When you look at the talent and winning % you would anticipate at least 5 more F4 and maybe 7-10 since mid 90s.
@Fightsongwriter Just in comparison to other programs, since Self has been here - UNC 5 Final Fours, Duke 3 FFs, UK 4 FFs, MSU 4 FFs, Louisville 3 FFs, UConn 3 FFs, Florida 3 FFs, Butler 2 FFs, Wisconsin 2 FFs, Ohio St. 2 FFs, Syracuse 2 FFs.
HighEliteMajor said:
@Fightsongwriter Just in comparison to other programs, since Self has been here - UNC 5 Final Fours [EASYGATE, DUMP TRUCKS, ALWAYS MORE TALENT THAN KU], Duke 3 FFs [MEDIUM AND LONG STACKS, ALWAYS MORE TALENT THAN KU ], UK 4 FFs [ALL LONG STACKS, ALWAYS MORE TALENT THAN KU], MSU 4 FFs [LEGITIMATE], Louisville 3 FFs [PROSTITUTION-ASSISTED RECRUITING] UConn 3 FFs [CORRUPTION DEFINED ON FIRST TWO], Florida 3 FFs [HELLUVA COACH THAT GAVE UP ON RECRUITING CORRUPTION AND WENT TO THE PROS TO CASH OUT], Butler 2 FFs GREAT COACH THAT GOT SCREWED OUT OF RINGS, GAVE UP AND WENT TO THE PROS]], Wisconsin 2 FFs [GREAT COACH THAT GOT SCREWED OUT OF TWO RINGS, SAID SO, THEN GOT SMEARED INTO RETIREMENT LIKELY FOR SAYING SO] , Ohio St. 2 FFs [A GUY WHO COULDNT GET IT DONE WITH DUMP TRUCKS], Syracuse 2 FFs [CORRUPTION, FAB MELO, STAFF PEDO ALLEGATIONS].
This was an excellent list to work with.
Self is NOT super human. Ratso, Donovan, and Bo likely were all as good, or better.
But Self is way the heck better than the rest for the period considered.
Fightsongwriter said:
@HighEliteMajor This is painfully true. When you look at the talent and winning % you would anticipate at least 5 more F4 and maybe 7-10 since mid 90s.
Did some looking as you said sine the mid 90's - - so I went back to 1996. Saying with the talent we have had that we would anticipate At lest 5 more F4's - -and maybe 7-10 - -saying that might be just a little off base.
Since 1996 KU , is only behind the leader of reaching the final 4 Kentucky by 3: - - During this 20 yr stretch Kentucky has 7 , final 4's - - - -N Carolina has 6 - - -Duke has 5 - - KU has 4 - -& Arizona has 2 - -so it's not like we are sucking hind T - - in relation to this.
Out of these final 4's reached during this time Duke has reached the Championship game - -4 times - - -Kentucky 4 times - - KU 3 times - -North Carolina 3 times - -- & Arizona 2 times. - -so nothing really drastic about that either
So when you say when we look at the talent - then if that's what we look at then these other teams Duke, Kentucky , & N Carolina for sure should be also reaching the final 4 ALOT more then they have - -it's not as drastic as some make it to be - -again in that 20 year span you mention -Duke the all and mighty powerful Duke has reached the final 4 ONE more time -& the al mighty Kentucky only 2 more times in a TWETNY year span
There is one other thing that three out of these other four teams has accomplished that Ku hasn't. - - -and that is? - -in this same 20 yr span - - Three teams haven't even made the NCAA tourney during this span. - - -North Carolina has failed to even make the tourney 3 years out of this 20 yr span - - -Kentucky has failed to make the tourney 2 times during this span - - & Arizona has failed to make the tourney 1 time during this span. - -How many times has KU made it to the tourney during this same time frame? - - ALL of them - -So I wonder what was going on with all that talent for these teams during those years? - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Another thing of note during this 20 year span when KU made the final four? - -out of those 4 times? - -we made the Championship 3 times.
Out of Kentucky's 7 times they reached the final 4 during that same span- - - - - they reached the Championship 4 times
Out of N Carolina's final 4 appearances during this 20 year span - -they had 6 final fours - they reached the Championship - -3 times
So I would say they had nothing on us there either, the difference if you want to try and find things - would actually be in the Championship game it self - KU is just 1-2 in those appearances. Other then that it's not a bad as some want to try and make it out to be. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Are you saying that even though the other teams failed to make the tournament every year, they still had more final 4s?
Wow.
@3genhawk Not sure how long you've been posting here or at kusports.com .. but back when UK won the title in 2012, UK didn't make the tourney the following year. There were folks arguing that it was actually better to make the tournament every season, than it was to win national titles and miss it every so often. That conversation occurred when discussing UConn, as well.
It is a mindset that I can't even fathom.
@jayballer54 So, what do you say about our NCAA performance during Self's tenure? Satisfied, I assume?
3genhawk said:
Are you saying that even though the other teams failed to make the tournament every year, they still had more final 4s?
kind of nit picking huh? - ya ok guess they did huh - -also saying that when we get to the final four we do more make it to the championship more huh? - -ROK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
HighEliteMajor said:
@3genhawk Not sure how long you've been posting here or at kusports.com .. but back when UK won the title in 2012, UK didn't make the tourney the following year. There were folks arguing that it was actually better to make the tournament every season, than it was to win national titles and miss it every so often. That conversation occurred when discussing UConn, as well.
It is a mindset that I can't even fathom.
@jayballer54 So, what do you say about our NCAA performance during Self's tenure? Satisfied, I assume?
Can anyone say that their satisified in any year other the NCAA Champion. - -Every other school ends up as a loser at the end of the year unless you win the Championship.
Would you say you would be satisified if we were to make to more final fours - and
end up losing the championship? - -Would you still be playing 2nd
fiddle? - Of course you would. - -after all what is the goal at the beginning of each and every season? - -To make the final four on a consistent basis? - -To make the Championship on a regular basis? - - ummm , NO it's to win the Championship. Not to get to the championship - -everybody but one ends the season with a loss. Whether its in the 1st round or final 4 you failed to accomplish your goal from the beginning of the year.
SO would or is the KU fan base would we be happier if we just made the final four on a more regular basis? - Would that make us feel better, That way we could thump our chest and say HEY we make the final 4 year in and year out to which I reply - - AND? how that work out for ya? - -Unless you win it all - you have accomplished nothing. -You still lost, you have no props. Do we think people will remember who lost in the Championship game year, after year, after year? - -Ask someone who lost the Championship from 10 yrs ago - you think the ordinary sports fan is going t be able to tell you that?
To bag on a team for not making the final four quite frequent is just a reach. - -So many things come into play to be able to do that - it takes ONE bad outing. More cases then not if the teams that knocks you out chances are if you were to play a best of 7 things could be a lot diferent- -but it's one game.
So let me ask you - -would you be happy making the final 4 every year to end up losing say 50-60 % of the time - If you would be then I say WHY? - -you still lost - -you still came in 2nd. - Is that what we want ? - to be able to boast HEY we finish 2nd - -ALOT - makes perfectly good sense to me - I'm sure those kids are really happy about that - I think not - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@HighEliteMajor people just make excuses for mediocrity or failed attempts at success. Because KU historically chokes in the tourney and does not play to its potential, under both Roy and Self, people start to concoct reasons and excuses, claiming "at least we make the tournament" and other dumb statements. Not for not are we known as chokers to the rest of the country. VCU, UNI, Bradley, and Oregon were huge letdowns on an embarrassing level (no wissox, embarrassing for the program, not me). People just seem content with winning the conference or getting a couple high profile wins each season. It's what many have come to expect from Self's tenure - play well during the season and lay a huge egg in March. To quote Morpheus "his weakness, is not his technique (coaching technique".
HawkChamp said:
@HighEliteMajor people just make excuses for mediocrity or failed attempts at success. Because KU historically chokes in the tourney and does not play to its potential, under both Roy and Self, people start to concoct reasons and excuses, claiming "at least we make the tournament" and other dumb statements. Not for not are we known as chokers to the rest of the country. VCU, UNI, Bradley, and Oregon were huge letdowns on an embarrassing level (no wissox, embarrassing for the program, not me). People just seem content with winning the conference or getting a couple high profile wins each season. It's what many have come to expect from Self's tenure - play well during the season and lay a huge egg in March. To quote Morpheus "his weakness, is not his technique (coaching technique".
I will say this - -I know you not referring to me when you say some people likes making excuses, if you are then you got me messed up for somebody else.
What I posted id no way shape or form or any kind of excuse, what I'm saying is solid fact. - if you are one of these people that feel the need that KU goes deeper in the tourney on a more frequent basis - -then you tell me you like still being 2nd fiddle? - -you like being runner up? - you want KU in the final four more often - then you better hope to GOD they win it all - -again you explain to me how is it ANY better as far as accomplishment to make it to the final four/Championship and lose? - You there you lose you tell me what you accomplish? - - Nothing you can twist this shit anyway you want.
At the end of the year, you standing in the Center of the floor hoisting that trophy? - -What? - -No - then you didn't do shit. Accomplishment wise you gained NOTHING you still came in 2nd. - That for some, and sounds like you that would be ok - -a long as we made more final 4's - Hell we may of lost but by golly dam we made the title game - -AND? - at you one who likes finishing runner up?
Again EVERY team every single team - -whz their goal at the start of a season? - - To make it to the final 4? - -make the championship? - -if you think that's what it is - -then you like settling for mediocrity, cause that's not what the team is thinking - their goal is to win it all. - every team but one ends up losing their last game. - - You talking about people who like making up excuses settling for conference championships, your no different by settling being content happy if we make more final 4's = = OMFG - -SERIOUSLY?
do you happen to be one of these people that no matter how good a team does - you just wanna wine/bitch - -never satisified? - ya? - well good luck with that - -these other bloods? - -they haven't been to that many more final 4's over the past 20 years either - -man O man - -umm , umm , umm -Again you can try an twist this about others whining/ settling all you want - in reality your the one who is settling cause HEY we make it to the final 4 pretty regular - -we may not win the dam thing but by golly we made it - -OH that's so much better - -I wonder how much room KU has in the trophy case for Almost? - Tell ya what how about you scoot on down the road - jump on one of the other blue bloods coat tails and see if they make the final four year after year and win Championships year after year - -let me know how that works out for ya.. Then when they fail you can moan and wine and bitch and complain to them, and settle their for 2nd - -I'm sure that would be great - get really sick of people bitching about how we fail/ underachieve.
There are many many teams that are happy as hell to just make the tourney, US -we have made it like 28 yrs in a row longest in the Nation - but that's not good enough - we need to be making the final four yr after yr after yr - -So what if we don't win it - Hell that kind of thinking the only way you come out winning with that attitude is to win the whole dam thing every year - -anything less then that - you failed - you lost PERIOD. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Duke, almighty Duke, in the last 20 yrs: - - 4 time losers in the 1st round - -Arizona - in the last 20 yrs- - 5 time losers in the 1st round
North Carolina in the last 20 yrs:- - 6 time losers in the 2nd round - -Kentucky in the last 20 yrs- -4 time losers in the 2nd round.
These teams have had multiple years where they didn't even make it to the tourney - yet we moan/bitch cause OH we have underachieved since the middle 90's should of at least had 7-10 more final fours with the talent we have had. - -Guess UK - -Duke - -& N Carolina must not of had any talent in the last 20 years when they made their early 1st round 2nd round exits. - -I would of thought they would of done better - but they didn't have the talent. - - I call bullshit. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@jayballer54 An appropriate term for what @HawkChamp is saying is an "apologist."
I would also say this. You may wonder why things go downhill sometimes with your posting and responses. Try reading what you wrote. Then do a 2 + 2 analysis. But I'm guessing you aren't going to clue in on the "why" part of it.
Quite frankly, a discussion is not "bitching", etc., as you want to disjointedly describe it.
I DECIDED to re think and try to keep my tongue in cheek be the better for it. - -Lots I would like to say - -But I won't - I'll just do like I said the new leaf for new years resolution - when I totally disagree, or not waste time - I'l just simply put - -I'll zip my lip. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@HighEliteMajor @jayballer54 Did I really say 10? Wow, I totally had my Crimson colored stained glass window eyeglasses on. In my defense, I woke up really early this morning. But 5 more is not out of the question with the great coaches and talent we have had.
@HighEliteMajor I feel the urge, once again, to jab with a needle at your tough old skin. My personal and time honored MINDSET: Win the league annually; then hope for a national title every couple of decades. Never ever lose in the first two rounds of the NCAA Tourney. Coddle and praise a tenured coaching staff which strives to maintain that level of play. (And, O Yeah, HAVE A NICE DAY!)
@REHawk I'll jab back very slightly, my friend. How do you win a national championship if your planning, scheming, and personnel aren't geared for that goal? I will say that hoping for a national title every couple of decades seems to be aiming a bit low, in my ever so humble opinion.
@HighEliteMajor Actually, I think it would be terrific to win a pair of national titles every decade. That said, a couple of powerhouse programs, Kentucky and North Carolina, have paid a very high price to do that...crashing the credibility of what some folk would still like to feel is "amateur sport." Am I an uninformed rube, thinking that the KU hoops program hovers much more closely to the fairer (tho ever changing) RULES OF AMATEURISM? Essentially, I guess that I am saying that schools have to cheat to win clusters of national titles. Of course, Big 12 opponents probably feel the same about Bill Self's current conference streak....
Now it appears that Kansas Basketball has reached the point that the "program" has to lever traditionally ineligible players into positions of partial eligibility. Invest enough coin waging legal battles vs a beleaguered and bewildered national accrediting agency...and SHAZAM!, borderline players get to represent the university half a season. (I had to check back to see if my comments were staying within the parameters of the heading for this thread; and, yeah, I suppose I am VENTING.) Of course, who was to know that young Preston would show up on campus behind the steering wheel of a vehicle, the purchase or ownership being suspicious of impropriety?
@HighEliteMajor You know, I used to think you were something of a pragmatist, a fella pinched a bit tightly into a cassock of pessimism. But now I read your little ditty about Marcus Peters and our Chiefs.
Only a died in the wool optimist could enter the words CHIEFS and PLAYED BETTER in the same paragraph!
Speaking of optimism, when my wife just pointed out that our Jayhawks are set to play 3 games in the next 6 days, two of those away, I blurted, "Hell, we are likely to lose one of those!" She said, "Oh, I believe you might be thinking a bit optimistically!"
REHawk said:
Now it appears that Kansas Basketball has reached the point that the "program" has to lever traditionally ineligible players into positions of partial eligibility. Invest enough coin waging legal battles vs a beleaguered and bewildered national accrediting agency...and SHAZAM!, borderline players get to represent the university half a season. (I had to check back to see if my comments were staying within the parameters of the heading for this thread; and, yeah, I suppose I am VENTING.) Of course, who was to know that young Preston would show up on campus behind the steering wheel of a vehicle, the purchase or ownership being suspicious of impropriety?
To which we STILL don't know who this car actually belongs to OR belonged to right? - -Will we EVER know? - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Maybe it was good fortune that Billy hit the curb. Just think if all these issues were somehow brought to light after a season; potentially resulting in vacated wins.
Blown said:
Maybe it was good fortune that Billy hit the curb. Just think if all these issues were somehow brought to light after a season; potentially resulted in vacated wins.
Agree with that. I'm sure that is the reason he's sat through the first 9 games. No one player is above the integrity of the program
As long as we're venting - to whomever runs KUathletics.com - could you please lose the picture of DeVonte and LaGerald holding hands? Thank you.
@nuleafjhawk couldn't see it
@Crimsonorblue22 Couldn't see any pics, or that one? Because there's quite a delay between pictures, but it's there. Big and bold.
@HighEliteMajor seemingly nothing is missed for KU Men's BB the last few years....Selby, Chieck, Alexander, Josh "the Crane Kick Macchio" Jackson, Bragg...but unfortunately, there is an awful lot of truth to your question/statement.
Ineligible players, transfers, walk-ons actually playing. A football player suiting up shortly, possibly...Is this a sign of something??
@KUSTEVE I too like what Cunliffe will bring. He's got to bring something better than what they've had up to this point. I'm really hopeful for this Nebraska game. I hope to see Cunliffe provide some valuable contributions that will make the bball pundits pause, and say, "Uh oh, looks like KU will get their act together afterall."
I just heard Seth Greenberg say that KU will NOT win the B12. I hope KU makes that pompous windbag eat his words. Every year some so-called bball expert goes against Self and Co. I hope Self lives up to his HOFA, and makes Greenberg eat his stupid comments.
Self has said to be easy on expectations for Sam. Self has also said that he will be a great player but in a few years, ether way just having a guy to go in for a few minutes for Self to bench a guard and tell them why they got pulled . Didn’t really have that the first 10 games. With Marcus and Sam on the bench if Svi and Newman make a few bad play Self can sit them both for a bit (while chewing some butt lol).
kjayhawks said:
Self has said to be easy on expectations for Sam. Self has also said that he will be a great player but in a few years, ether way just having a guy to go in for a few minutes for Self to bench a guard and tell them why they got pull. Didn’t really have that the first 10 games. With Marcus and Sam on the bench if Svi and Newman make a few bad play Self can sit them both for a bit (while chewing some butt lol).
If he can give 10 okay minutes I think that's a win.
Cunliffe lacks basketball skills.
Defy logic? Yea I think in this case it's ok to use the term. I'll tell you why.
I as a KU fan for many years I expected and even deemed the season a failure if KU didn't at least make the final 4. As you well know year after year. I walked way feeling a little disappointed. I even began to wander if God himself had something against the Jayhawks. I know crazy talk. Right? Hey what's a fan to do when he is grasping for answers?
Greatly I never gave up and began to really watch the game. Not with just with my fandom, but my intellect (what little I have). Here are some things I figured out or stumbled unto like a man in the dark trying to find the last Twinkie that the wife hid in the kitchen.
Coach hasn't had a killer inside game for quite sometime. Maybe not since the Morris Brothers. Don't get me wrong Trob and the Withey show was quite good, but was it really killer?
Just looking back on the last couple of years. What was KU's real downfall? What knocked them out of the tourney and a date with destiny? Bigs in the paint?
The OAD has really changed the way the game is played and especially how the big boys recruit. It's kind of Ironic there seems to be more heartbreak than success with the OAD craze. Yet it continues. Which I think allows the really good college players to slip down to lesser schools. In some ways leveling the playing field.
As we have found out and haven't seen all the fallout yet. Yet it appears that recruiting top talent isn't quite as fair as we used to think yesteryear.
This last May rile the KU posters here? Yet does KU really have great players? The best of the best? Don't get me wrong KU has some great players. Yet the best of the best. The kind of talent where. A fan can actually say without his or her fandom getting in the way. KU has the best players in the nation and is the best team in the country?
So I say defy logic? Because with everything I posted above, I think Coache's back is against the wall yet year after year he keeps KU winning and KU in the conversation of NC type team.
Hey I'm just looking at the glass half full.
Are you advocating we need a new direction? Not trying to put you on the spot or anything. Yet your knowledge of the game we love far surpassed my own. What say you?
Kentucky is trash. Wow.
Syracuse headed to OT with a crappy Georgetown team...
EVEN OUR WINS SUCK. ERMAGERD
BShark said:
Kentucky is trash. Wow.
Syracuse headed to OT with a crappy Georgetown team...
EVEN OUR WINS SUCK. ERMAGERD
Kentucky will win though
Cuse isn't supposed to be any good.
I get it, we don't have a really legitimate win through 9 games.
I was mostly just being stupid. Not sure a win today changes much but it would be much better than the alternative.
Can I vent about the Nebraska game too lol. I tell you I’m worried, we don’t even look decent half the time to this point. Watching some of the other B12 games today I’m worried we will struggle to be .500. Even KSUCK looks like they would stomp the daylights outta us to this point. Newman shouldn’t play more than a handful of minutes a game, he’s as lost as a guy can be. Both him and Garrett couldn’t hit the ground with their hat in 3 trys.