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Billy Momma Drama
Jan 03, 2018 02:41 PM #1

Straight from Momma P-

I’m tired of being quiet. I’m sick of watching people bash my child but if he suited up tomorrow he’d be the next coming of Jesus Christ to you guys. Enough is enough. Be a fan, be supportive, be empathetic or just be quiet until the NCAA does what they have to do. #kubball

— Nicole Player (@BartenderChic78) January 3, 2018
As soon as he is cleared..which I feel he should & will be..I will speak candidly on this situation, however, I will not sit quiet while “fans” put jackets on him that don’t fit. No one knows the stress that my family has gone through.

— Nicole Player (@BartenderChic78) January 3, 2018
Not only that..if I had anything to hide..I could’ve pulled him in November. This is taxing and stressful. But he’s there, being supportive, he hasn’t bailed on his team. He’s cheering and coaching & doing all he can.

— Nicole Player (@BartenderChic78) January 3, 2018

I don’t think they understand. Billy is 6’10 240 lbs..I could’ve sent him overseas in Nov. when this started, he would’ve been an instant millionaire and a 1st round pick . I allowed the NCAA in my personal life for Kansas. Guilty people don’t do that.

— Nicole Player (@BartenderChic78) January 3, 2018

Thoughts??? Things are heating up as the world turns with Billy

Jan 03, 2018 02:44 PM #2

Has anyone ever been "interviewed" for Jury duty? One of the questions that's always asked is:

Do you believe, by the fact that this man/woman is here in court today, that he/she must have done SOMETHING wrong?

Jan 03, 2018 02:44 PM #3

if the jacket doesn't fit you must acquit

Jan 03, 2018 02:47 PM #4

All due respect to "Mama P" - I don't care if her son (if he ever does play for us) averages 50 pts, 50 rebounds & 50 assists per game - he will not be the next coming of Jesus Christ to me.

Jan 03, 2018 02:50 PM #5

This is Cliff 2.0

Jan 03, 2018 03:05 PM #6

I don’t remember Jesus in a sports car. :race_car: Must be in the new new testiment.

Billy would be nice, but momma can go away. :face_palm:

Stupid car...No, stupid kid taking a car ruining a season for everyone.

Jan 03, 2018 03:24 PM #7

@dylans I think in some Bible version it says He and the disciples were in "One Accord".

Jan 03, 2018 03:40 PM #8

Dear Mrs. Preston,

Your child was discovered to be in a vehicle that has taken two months to explain how he received it.

Any one who has ever purchased a vehicle could support that purchase within one business day.

I'm not saying that he did anything wrong. I'm just saying the explanation shouldn't take this long.

It frustrates the fan base that year after year our coach brings in a player who behaves questionably and it inflicts chinks in the armor of the Mythical Legend that is Kansas Basketball. It then also creates a major distraction to the rest of the program.

So, yeah, there is a lot of unfair hell fire and brimstone spewed toward your young man.

Jan 03, 2018 04:03 PM #9

Get both of them outta here.

Maybe Billy is Jesus... but he is not Wilt!

Jan 03, 2018 04:20 PM #10

Come on guys, we need to give billy some support, I'm sure he wishes the car didnt exist at this point. His mom seems a little psycho but hey we need all the help we can get here.

Jan 03, 2018 04:23 PM #11

If twitter didn't exist nobody would even hear about he displeasure. This is not a big deal. I do feel the same way though. If Billy was not going to be able to play he wouldn't still be here.

Jan 03, 2018 04:29 PM #12

@Kcmatt7 Didn't Alexander stick around the entire time, and unable to play? Maybe my recollection is off.

Jan 03, 2018 04:39 PM #13

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21949301/mom-kansas-star-waiting-billy-preston-answers-critics ↗

@Blown Yes as I recall, but Alexander played the fist 2/3 of the season. And is still waiting on the NCAA’s response...

Jan 03, 2018 04:52 PM #14

@Blown He did. But Cliff also played all the way to the end of February. Just feel like they are two completely different scenarios.

We never heard Self say he was optimistic Cliff would be back. As soon as he was benched, everyone knew that was it for Cliff.

Jan 03, 2018 04:57 PM #15

@Kcmatt7 :+1:

Jan 03, 2018 05:17 PM #16

I said from the very early stages that this situation is lousy for the family because the NCAA can ask the family to open up a lot of very private information - credit card statements, tax records, mortgage/ rent information, pay stubs, etc. Often, they request this not just for the last several months, but years.

Also, often these investigations have a bit of a racial element - i.e., there is disbelief that this person can afford it, even after producing the necessary information. I've seen this happen firsthand, but because the NCAA controls the ability of the kid to be eligible, they hold all the cards unless a kid is willing and able to walk away and go pro immediately. Billy is the rare kid that probably could have, but most don't have that option.

Let's face it. The NCAA is power crazed and corrupt. Maybe Billy did something inappropriate. Maybe he didn't. Maybe all the records are there. Maybe they aren't. But here's the thing - the NCAA has been able to drag this out, casting serious doubt on this young man and his family, and their character. If he is cleared in the end, I bet we wait longer than what this investigation took to hear an apology for that.

Jan 03, 2018 05:26 PM #17

@justanotherfan In sports, in crime stories, and in my own military criminal appellate work, I remember lots of family members making statements about their kids, who are all innocent little victims of some persecution, and how they would explain everything, and the real facts would come out, as soon as they were free to talk about it.

I do not remember a single family member ever coming forward with all that "truth" when cases were over, with suspensions or disqualifications in sports, and with convictions in criminal cases.

Jan 03, 2018 05:40 PM #18

@justanotherfan

I believe KU slow played this before sending this off to the NCAA for review/ruling. The NCAA may have asked for more material that KU compliance didn't get initially from them.

It still seems as if KU tried to get ahead of the curve by doing a lot of the leg work themselves in hopes that if they were diligent enough the NCAA would agree with their self-reported findings. . It feels as if Momma P is trying to put pressure on the NCAA to make a ruling in her son's favor. She knows what's at stake for her son.

Her twitter rant has now made ESPN. Could have been her ultimate goal, maybe not.

Jan 03, 2018 06:44 PM #19

@mayjay Right on point. OJ Simpson is searching for the real killer. All these folks complain about injustices, and they are actually guilty. Maybe Preston's mom, whose twitter handle is @bartenderchic78, should just shut the he** up.

She sounds like the idiot she obviously is.

Jan 03, 2018 06:50 PM #20

@justanotherfan

I strongly disagree with you. The NCAA does exactly what it was tasked and expected to do, make sure a level field is in place so a player or program does no get an unfair advantage.

When a student athlete decides to attend a programs under NCAA rules, he agrees to abide by said rules and the NCAA is required to follow up when there is evidence the rules were/are not followed. There seems to be evidence that the rules were not followed by Preston and family and it is the job of the NCAA to investigate; it would be remiss if it did not do so. The overwhelming majority of student athletes go through college with no issues; it is a tinny minority of athletes that think they are above the law that eventually run into problems.

NCAA rules and regulations are well known to student athlete and more so to top prospects who are advised by their current and prospective school every step of the way. Any athlete that breaks a rule anymore does it knowing and willingly; claiming ignorance is the equivalent of a smoker claiming he did not know smoking causes cancer. If there was no violation of rules, this issue would have been resolved a long time ago, the fact it is taking this long appears to indicate willful intent to obfuscate the facts.

The NCAA has no legal compelling authority and cannot force anyone to produce any type of information. It does however have the power to withhold clearance until such time as the student can prove it has followed the rules and regulation when evidence to the contrary is present.

Don’t blame the NCAA for doing its job, blame the prospect and family that knowingly decided to ignore the rules and regulations and avail themselves of improper benefits. One way or another, Preston will be making serious money in the not so distant future and the real losers will be the KU basketball program that will have spent probably over $100K and migh not derive any benefit whatsoever; in fact, it might have prevented another top prospect from joining the program and actually contributing and of course us, the fans, that have had to endure this senseless drama.

Jan 03, 2018 07:16 PM #21

Here is a story on USA Today

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ftw/2018/01/03/suspended-kansas-stars-mom-breaks-silence-im-sick-of-watching-people-bash-my-child/109126584/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomcollegemensbasketball-topstories?src=rss ↗

Jan 03, 2018 07:56 PM #22

Since Billy Boy is seemingly never going to play - him and his momma can both pack up and wait for the NBA draft for all I care. And if he DOES actually set foot on the hardwoods - since he ain't Jesus, maybe he can play Moses and lead us to the promised land. Or at least help us not lose in AFH.

Jan 03, 2018 08:16 PM #23

I'll get blasted for pointing this out....The percentage of college basketball players with a different last name than their mothers has to be something like 75%.

Jan 03, 2018 08:18 PM #24

The US Divorce Rate is 50%. So.....

Jan 03, 2018 08:22 PM #25

@Blown That's actually a myth. Research it if you get bored.

Jan 03, 2018 08:24 PM #26

@BigBad Unfortunately, I don't have the time to research it any further than what the APA reports it to be. Like most studies, there are conflicting reports, I'm sure.

Jan 03, 2018 08:38 PM #27

@BigBad I would get blasted even more for pointing out why that is, so i won't.

Jan 04, 2018 01:25 AM #28

I'm shocked she (and Billy) stayed silent this long, so I'm way more on her side than the rest of you, I guess.

Jan 04, 2018 01:32 AM #29

@DanR I'm glad you spoke up! I'm a mom of boys. I understand. Doesn't matter what her job is, either.

Jan 04, 2018 02:11 AM #30

BigBad said:

I'll get blasted for pointing this out....The percentage of college basketball players with a different last name than their mothers has to be something like 75%.

Sounds a lot like my stepsons, but they don't play basketball.

Jan 04, 2018 02:29 AM #31

@mayjay and I forgot, what was that point?

Jan 04, 2018 02:58 AM #32

@Crimsonorblue22 Kids with different last names than their mothers, apparently due to Billy and his Mom's names. Some here seemed to think it has great significance (all those "I could say something but I would get blasted..."--wink, wink--comments) that many basketball players have name "discrepancies." As if there is something disreputable about it, which I dispute vehemently.

I just figured it is pretty normal when stepchildren are involved, with no great significance whatsoever other than blended families are becoming pretty prevalent. The days of laughing at the kids from broken homes should be long over.

You know me--I don't stay silent when someone tries to rally the more-fortunate or better-heeled people to the side of snide.

Jan 04, 2018 03:14 AM #33

DanR said:

I'm shocked she (and Billy) stayed silent this long, so I'm way more on her side than the rest of you, I guess.

My earlier comment was not intended to mean, I should have said, that I believe she is hiding something bad or anything. I just never see the big follow-up explanation that always gets promised. Billy's situation, I suspect, involves complications that could well include gifts from relatives and nonrelatives.

The history of his school moves was all about his mother seeking a better place for him. I believe she has his interests at heart. As we learned with Diallo, sometimes these kids would benefit from having their own legal representation separate from the school as their interests do not always coincide. Many families cannot afford it, and that could be the cause of big delays.

Jan 04, 2018 03:16 AM #34

@mayjay Right. In this case, there were two solid parents who, by all accounts, worked damn hard to get him to where he is today, so the family bashing seems particularly ugly, IMO. Maybe they aren't doctors or engineers, but they make an honest living, ffs.

OK. After re-reading it, this thread is pretty disgusting. I'm out.

eta: not directed at your most recent comment, @mayjay

Jan 04, 2018 03:55 AM #35

This article ↗ indicates Billy’s family dynamics, not really what you would expect and presented without any comments.

Jan 04, 2018 04:18 AM #36

He could've went to Europe and made millions? OOOO...kayee??? But thanks for stayin' ... I guess? I'm not sure what to say about that statement. It's like she is owed something.

Jan 04, 2018 04:18 AM #37

Sooner or later, this thing was bound to blow like a long dormant geyser. A durn shame that the eligible players, the coaching staff and fans have had to spend so many games without a recruited power forward. With 3 ineligible transfers already on the sidelines, this 4th ineligible scholarship recruit adds up to an ugly situation for this year's squad and Jayhawk Basketball. Difficult for our players to hang tough when forced to play so many minutes. 4-1 lineups are esp. taxing.

Jan 04, 2018 04:20 AM #38

@REHawk Exactly. This has been the frustration. We all had high hopes and expectations for BP and then this long drawn out drama. I don't think she realizes we are for her son. I don't know who she is pissed at, but most all KU wants him to play and have been waiting. She needs to help get him cleared and stay off social media.

Jan 04, 2018 04:23 AM #39

@truehawk93 she has been helping, probably pretty hard to hear some of that crap!

Jan 04, 2018 04:34 AM #40

@truehawk93 Social media being what it is, and internet bullies being as they are, I am sure there have been lots of nasty comments flying her way. Asking her to stay off as she tries to follow KU and her son's progress is not realistic or fair. If she is correct that she has done everything possible to cooperate, anyone could understand her frustration. Unfortunately, many people who are subjected to internet trolling do not have the luxury of trying to step away without cutting themselves off from everyone.

Jan 04, 2018 05:16 AM #41

It's a tough situation. Difficult to believe everything is above board when it takes this long to figure out. But I have not seen anyone bashing BP or his family. I'm sure it's happened. But also. You can read any type of negativity anywhere on any social media about anything. Even the most positive of situations. You can read some real trash about any player if you look for it I'm certain. The situation has been plenty largely publicized with constant reminders of "no news". It's unreasonable to expect not to have comments. Personally. I wish for the teams sake that the saga would just end. In any resolution. Don't care which

Jan 04, 2018 05:19 AM #42

She probably shouldn't have said anything but put yourself in her shoes. How would you feel right now if this was your kid?

Jan 04, 2018 05:33 AM #43

@KirkIsMyHinrich

If he was my child, I would have made sure he was not put in that situation. Hard to believe she did not know what was going on.

Let's just say it...if the car purchase was above board this issue is resolved in one day. The fact that KU chose not to play him and potentially jeopardize wins would seem to indicates KU knew there were issues and if that was the case, the chance that Billiy's mom did not know about it is zilch... can't we all agree at least on this?

If anyone has a better plausible explanation I would love to hear it.

Jan 04, 2018 05:36 AM #44

I don't know if Billy's mom did or did not know. I do know that it would be hard for me to stay quiet if I had a kid who was being harassed on social media.

Jan 04, 2018 05:43 AM #45

@JayHawkFanToo I prefer to wait it out. Not all of us are perfect parents but good for you!🥇

Jan 04, 2018 06:43 AM #46

@Crimsonorblue22

You don't need to be a perfect parent, just a responsible one.

If you read the link I provided above you will see that Billy's mom partner who is also his godmother was a top prospect at the University of Iowa and part of a class that many consider the Fav-5 of women's college basketball and she also formed the AAU team for which Billy played. Plenty of knowledge of the NCAA rules at that household.

Jan 04, 2018 06:46 AM #47

@JayHawkFanToo read it

Jan 04, 2018 06:48 AM #48

@JayHawkFanToo maybe she helped pay for his car and that was illegal?

Jan 04, 2018 06:59 AM #49

@Crimsonorblue22

Don't you think that being that involved in college basketball and AAU she would know what is or isn't legal?

Jan 04, 2018 07:00 AM #50

@JayHawkFanToo she's his mom too

Jan 04, 2018 07:01 AM #51

@Crimsonorblue22

Then it would not be illegal, right?

Jan 04, 2018 07:02 AM #52

@JayHawkFanToo idk, NCAA has some crazy rules!

Jan 04, 2018 07:11 AM #53

@Crimsonorblue22

The NCAA rules are fairly straight forward and readily available and the great majority of student athletes have no problem following them.

I know you are trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, I understand and I get it but your grasping at straws. Again, if the car would have been obtained on the up and up the issue would have been resolved in one day. The fact it has taken this long and KU chose to sit Billy would appear to indicate that there were irregularities, don't you agree on at least this much?

Jan 04, 2018 12:13 PM #54

@JayHawkFanToo You don't have any evidence they didn't do things right, so why speculate so extremely. When we do have info, have at it. Impatience is not an excuse for jumping to conclusions. "Must have done something wrong" is a bit much.

Jan 04, 2018 02:02 PM #55

@DanR What parent wouldn't be pissed that their kid is costing their team a chance at a 14th consecutive Conference Championship and a realistic shot at doing anything in the NCAA Tournament?

That's just good parenting.

Jan 04, 2018 02:03 PM #56

@DanR oops - just read further about your explanation - so never mind my smart ass remarks.

Jan 04, 2018 02:14 PM #57

I absolutely believe it's completely reasonable to think things are not above board in the BP situation. Why would we think anything else at this point honestly? What's the other option? The KU compliance office has it out for BP? Not likely. The KU compliance office has whiffed on this entire situation and is completely incompetent? Hmmm. I think let's hope not lest we find out what all other irregularities have been mismanaged thru the years. Is it speculation? Of course. But it's a very very reasonable assumption at minimum. I realize some don't wish to believe that and that's fine. But the other options are much like @JayHawkFanToo says in my opinion "grasping at straws". I also realize the entirety of society likes to decide what is politically correct and who can say what about what these days. But none of this is bashing BP or his family. Maybe other ppl and posts are doing that. But suggesting that there's been something illegally obtained in the eyes of amateurism with the current info we have is simply not and unreasonable thing at all.

Jan 04, 2018 03:16 PM #58

@cragarhawk There are so many variables in any investigation that any difficulty or complication can thoroughly gum up the works. Self's discussion of this in last night's KC Star article is quite enlightening, and might help dispel the urge to assume that a serious infraction is causing the delay.

We think of these things as just asking for some info and documents, then submitting it to the NCAA. But just figuring out who to contact, how they should be approached, and what to ask can involve numerous hours of background investigation, interviews, and acquisition of other documents. Strategy and legal advice sessions all have to be squeezed into normal staff routines, which for a bb team includes trips to games almost every week, and recruiting visits more often than we realize. There are also inevitable media sessions and meetings with supervisory school admins who don't want to be left out. And all that is just what is involved in the school, and doesn't even address the need for followup after followup as people don't have what you want or don't want to provide it and require persuasion. When the information gathering becomes complete, there is another lengthy round of legal involvement in the preparation of affidavits, with many possible exchanges to get every T crossed and I dotted while everyone tries to make sure there is no unexplained fact, unidentified name, or unexplored avenue.

Then there is the the hint we received from @RockChalkinTexas that they are trying to acqquire funding to pay for the car. Title tracing, loan applications, employment and pay histories, credit checks (and perhaps cleanups), proof of sources of funds for months if not years--all that can be a mess, especially in a nontraditional family where unmarried folks have lived together for years and shared expenses. And people and banks and car dealers do not always respond when you want them to. It took my car dealer 5 and 1/2 weeks just to send me my tags and regis to replace my 6-week temp ones, despite my calling them weekly, and I finally got them only 2 days before going on a cross-country trip. What is important to our fans may be a lower priority to third parties, assuming they cooperate at all.

And then the NCAA is going to take time to go over everything with their own magnifying glasses.

Self says the amount of detail they have had to gather in an effort to anticipate any issues is staggering. Anyone who has conducted a financial investigation knows that finding out what happened can be the easiest part. Being able to track it all down and prove it without leaving any stone unturned can be, simply put, the biggest pain in the ass you have ever experienced.

Jan 04, 2018 03:25 PM #59

I saw this tweet posted on another board that could actually be some solid information in this whole situation.

"The Billy Preston situation will come down to the NCAA's definition of what a pre-existing relationship is. How long do you have to know someone, so that they are considered a family friend and not an agent/representative."

Further tweets by this same person spoke on this making sense into why it took so long to gather information/evidence, why his Mom says they are innocent and why KU had to turn over documents to the NCAA. From what we gather Billy's family has been involved in Professional Basketball in some capacity in the past. The car could have been provided by a friend of the family and that relationship is in question and has required a paper trail.. Who knows.

Jan 04, 2018 04:36 PM #60

@mayjay

If they did things right, the issue would have been resolved in a day or there would have not been an issue in the first place. If they did things right, KU would be playing Billy and not sitting him while the investigation goes on; remember that KU sat Alexander when it sensed a rules violation and it turned out to be a wise decision? If Billy and family felt everything was done above board they would have asked that Billy start playing a long time ago; even now, the family has nor asked that Billy start playing, at least not publicly or that we know, right?

There is nothing “illegal” with someone giving Billy or you or me (I wish) a car; however, it is against NCAA rules and every HS athlete with aspiration to play college ball knows it. I have gifted money before and you have likely done so yourself and so you probably know that as long as you stay within the $10K IRS limit, is not even taxable. There is now an appeal against the FBI indictments that states there was nothing “illegal” with Adidas or any other firm giving money to an individual; it might be against NCAA rules but it is not illegal. I indicated before that the actual crime might end up being tax evasion by the recipients and not the money itself.

There is no doubt there were “irregularities” of unknown extent in the acquisition of the car and KU self reported it to the NCAA, it would have not done so if it thought it was above board. Don’t you think Coach Self is on the phone every day telling the Compliance Office that it is costing him dearly on the basketball court...and we know his word carries considerable weight at KU? Right?

There seems to be a lot of smoke and likely a fire; it might have been a small fire and already extinguished but the smoke has already created a lot of damage.

Jan 04, 2018 04:47 PM #61

@mayjay I understand your point of view. It probably is a pain in the ass that we will never fully understand. Obviously the situation isn't as clear cut as "the car is registered to BP or his mother and she has the documents to prove that and how it was acquired". That would be the day or 2 scenario... In which it would never have had to have multiple more facts gathered, multiple parties contacted and interviewed. Pain in the ass t's crossed and I's dotted. And weeks and weeks of getting to the bottom of it before having to turn it over to the NCAA. So while yes I will admit it is possible that everything is above board and it's just been a perfect storm/nightmare paperwork fiasco or whatever. I still contend it's reasonable to assume the opposite. Also feel it's okay to speculate. After all, that's all any of us do here about any subject honestly. Minus the posting of obvious facts, stats etc. When they are available.

Jan 04, 2018 05:11 PM #62

Self's latest comments regarding the duo of P and Sousa

Bill Self says Kansas’ basketball program will find out “very, very soon” if and when freshman forward Billy Preston will be able to play in games for the Jayhawks.

“It’s a situation right now where we think we could know any minute on what his situation is,” said Self, KU’s 15th-year coach, Wednesday night on his weekly Hawk Talk radio show. “We actually feel very good about what the NCAA has in their hands what we submitted,” Self added.

Kansas recently submitted to college’s governing body findings over an issue that that KU has said concerns the financial picture regarding a car Preston has been driving on campus this school year.

“We were hopeful for one (answer) last week,” Self said of final word from the NCAA on whether or not Preston can play. “The reason we didn’t get it … it’s not the NCAA’s fault folks. They way it (KU’s findings) had to be submitted, it had to be turned in after it was completely done with corrections so that way the NCAA doesn’t come back and say, ‘We need more information.’ We tried to make it a complete file.

“When we got it (completed), it was very close to Christmas break. People who need to review it (at NCAA) don’t report until Jan. 2 (after a holiday break that started Dec. 22). It’s been 10 to 12 days with not a lot being done with it. That’s not anybody’s fault at all. I know it’s frustrating. It’s more frustrating for Billy and obviously his mother more than anybody else. We think we’ll have a final decision on this very soon. When that decision is made we are optimistic and hoping for the best.”

The fact Preston has been held out 14 games while KU compliance looked into this case is quite significant, Self said.

“If there is a problem, which we are not saying there is, but if there is one, he has already sat how many games now? Fourteen games? Gosh dang,” Self said. “We certainly hope and believe that would be sufficient (penalty) if there is one (problem). We are not even admitting there is one. That’s where we are at right now.

“I’m trying to be patient. Certainly the NCAA knows obviously there is a lot at stake, but what is at stake more than anything else is a young man’s well being. I’m certainly hopeful that we’re going to have him real soon.”

Self addressed the matter of why this has taken so long for this situation to be resolved.

“There’s a lot of different things that go into it when you go through all records,” Self said. “As an institution I know we have done a nice job of being very thorough to the point we presented this after more interviews and things like that that you can imagine. If you think of it like this, if you are looking into something and someone tells you one name, you’ve got to go talk to that one name. If somebody tells you two names, that’s two more names you’ve got to go talk to.

“It takes a little bit longer to do a thorough job to present to the NCAA where they could make their final determination. I know we as an institution believe we have been very cautious and very thorough and basically a young man has been hurt a pretty fair amount by something that he is totally oblivious to,” added Self, who did not expand on what that might be.

“Still,” Self continued, “by the rules and letter of the law, the rules say this, that you have to approach it that way.

Self added that “it would be nice if we would have been able to get all the information to them a month ago. That’s not the the NCAA’s fault. That’s not our fault. That was us continuing and attorneys continually trying to put the thing together (for NCAA review). I wish it was something you just say, ‘OK here is the situation. Boom. Here is one piece of paper that describes everything that could possibly have transpired with this.’ It’s a little bit more complicated than that.”

As far as the final report to the NCAA, Self stressed: “I feel good about it, that it’s an honest assessment on what has transpired.”

Meanwhile, the NCAA also is reviewing freshman forward Silvio De Sousa’s amateurism status, as it does all incoming student-athletes. De Sousa recently graduated from IMG Academy and is going through the normal process to get cleared to play college basketball, in his case starting immediately.

Self said it still could be a few days before De Sousa is cleared for participation.

“There’s obviously questions when you have an international player,” Self said. De Sousa hails from Angola.

“What teams did he play for? What travel teams did he play for? Were there professionals on the travel teams? If there were professionals did you get expenses? Did you get more than expenses/ How did you get from there to here? Who paid for it? You have all these amateurism questions that have to be answered,” Self said. “We just have to get them answered. We think we can have all answers hopefully to the NCAA in the next day or two. They’ll follow up if they have anything more they need to find out about.”

Self said De Sousa is in the process of learning the system and is a ways away from being able to contribute in games.

“He’ll need time. You need time to play without thinking,” Self said. “OK, if we run 2-3 zone what do you do? What’s the base thing to do if we run man or whatever. It’s getting him comfortable with the most simple things. We’re still probably a week or 10 days if things go perfect where he’d be able to play significant minutes and help us.”

Jan 04, 2018 05:19 PM #63

@JayHawkFanToo You've made number of posts on this topic, and the NCAA. I could not agree more. You've hammered this issue perfectly.

It is quite easy to demonize the enforcer of the rules, and to whine about rules, but that usually comes from folks that don't follow the rules (or even with notice of the rules, with everything on the line, still don't take even the most obvious steps to ensure compliance). Excuses flow like a river. And the whining ignores the reason that there are so many rules, and so much specificity -- because if you don't have rules and specificity, the rules collapse under the pressure of the exceptions, as noted by good lawyers.

It may sound stupid that kid can't accept one lousy meal from a KU alum, but that meal turns into a weekly event, a daily event, to twice a day, to stocking his refrigerator; then if it's food, something that's a necessity, why not clothes, or pizza money, or whatever. Everything is a slippery slope. That's why on the edges, rules enforcement sounds petty. But it's that "bright-line" that eliminates the slippery slope. That's how the integrity of the game is protected. And the reality is, the integrity is in very large measure actually protected.

Jan 04, 2018 05:31 PM #64

@BeddieKU23

“If there is a problem, which we are not saying there is, but if there is one, he has already sat how many games now? Fourteen games? Gosh dang,” Self said. “We certainly hope and believe that would be sufficient (penalty) if there is one (problem). We are not even admitting there is one. That’s where we are at right now.“

I believe this is called a non-denial denial? 😎

Jan 04, 2018 05:41 PM #65

@HighEliteMajor

The NCAA is a big, easy and convenient target for people that really are clueless about its role in college sports.

The great majority of student athletes go through the process without any issues and it is the tinny minority that in many case have been given passes before college that believe the rules don’t apply to them that get in trouble and the “go to” answer is to blame the NCAA for doing its job.

Jan 04, 2018 06:04 PM #66

Think of it this way.

Let's say two kids meet in high school on the basketball team. One kid (let's call him "Superstar") clearly has a college future. The other (let's call him "Regular Joe")is going to end up being just a regular HS basketball player. Regular Joe and Superstar become friends. Even though Regular Joe isn't from a rich family, they do okay and they help Superstar out from time to time - rides to games, AAU tournaments, spending money on the weekends, etc. - because when Regular Joe and Superstar hang out, they don't want Superstar to be left out.

Is that illegal? Is that wrong? Is that against NCAA rules? That's a gray area, because they met in high school, when Superstar's skill and opportunity were clear. But it's clouded because the two kids are friends.

Now let's say that Regular Joe's family does have quite a bit of money, so it's not just $20 on the weekend, or a trip with the family to a chain restaurant to celebrate a birthday - now it's paying for prom tuxes and limos, or paying for AAU trips. Is that illegal? Wrong? Against NCAA rules?

The question of how long you have to know someone has long haunted the NCAA because sports cross the normal income lines drawn by real estate and work. A talented, athletic kid can get a chance to go to a private school that he could not otherwise afford, where he ends up becoming friends with kids he would never meet, or dating a girl whose father owns a bunch of local businesses.

But to the NCAA, those relationships were created because of the kid's athletic talent, so they can be questioned.

Jan 04, 2018 06:07 PM #67

@JayHawkFanToo Informative noninformation.

Jan 04, 2018 06:11 PM #68

@cragarhawk I agree it is perfectly reasonable to assume there is something, and Self's comment seems to reinforce that. It is the inferences that his family is dragging their feet to not comply because they are crooked, and the accusations that KU compliance is screwing up, that I think are based solely on the delay, that I think are unjustified. Flowing purely out of fan impatience, and leading to the anger at her for daring to speak out.

I would love Bill's salary, but I couldn't handle all the crap.

Jan 04, 2018 06:50 PM #69

@JayHawkFanToo Actually it sounds a lot more like a non-admission admission....

Jan 04, 2018 07:06 PM #70

@mayjay .. so you're saying @JayHawkFanToo is right, correct?

@justanotherfan You're choosing to play in the NCAA, you deal with their rules. Insert "mentor" for average joe, and you see the enforcement issue.

Jan 04, 2018 07:20 PM #71

@JayHawkFanToo If you feel the need/desire to gift any more money to anyone - send me an email. :)

Jan 04, 2018 07:48 PM #72

mayjay said:

It is the inferences that his family is dragging their feet to not comply because they are crooked, and the accusations that KU compliance is screwing up, that I think are based solely on the delay, that I think are unjustified.

I can't remember anyone saying that Billy and/or his family is/are crooked. In fact, I specifically indicated that even if they received money/car/benefits from a third party, there is nothing illegal or crooked about it...it just happens to be against NCAA rules designed to provide a level field and that every othre student athlete complies with no issues.

I don't seem to recall any allegations either that the Compliance Office is screwing up. I have pointed out that hey are just doing their due diligence as any competent and responsible office would do.

Jan 04, 2018 07:50 PM #73

@nuleafjhawk

My days of gifting are gone. I am planning for my own retirement now.

Jan 04, 2018 08:07 PM #74

@JayHawkFanToo I wasn't just referrng to here. I have read comments telling his mom to just shut up, telling them both to take a hike, and excoriating our compliance department for neither knowing about the car nor getting the investigation settled quickly.

@HighEliteMajor Sometimes he is right, and other times....maybe not so much. Heck, sometimes you are right, and even I am.

Jan 04, 2018 08:12 PM #75

@mayjay

A broken clock is right twice a day. :smile:

Jan 04, 2018 08:19 PM #76

@JayHawkFanToo We used to have a grandfathers clock that had a loose minute hand. Sometimes, but not always, it would slip back down toward the 6 instead of going on up around. It was maddening to figure out when it was right.

Yes, watching that damned clock for hours, waiting to see if the hand slipped, is what sent me over the edge.

Jan 04, 2018 08:21 PM #77

@mayjay

You need to come back from the edge. :smile:

Jan 04, 2018 08:22 PM #78

@JayHawkFanToo Might join the Flat Earthers, what the heck. As long as I'm here.

Jan 04, 2018 09:04 PM #79

@JayHawkFanToo I said he was sleazy. I'm sorry his mom's feelings are hurt. Maybe i shouldn't be this way, but I care more about KU basketball than i do his Mom's feelings. Common sense says there is something that was done that was not within the framework of the rules that are clearly laid out. Maybe it was a simple mistake - maybe it was willful disregard of the rules. Now, i absolutely don't agree with fans reaching out to the family and saying nasty things at all- that is way, way out of bounds, and should be condemned. But, that is far cry from complaining about a kid that didn't follow the rules, and severely impacted his team.

Jan 04, 2018 09:25 PM #80

Innocent until proven guilty. Isn't that what makes our country judicial system stand out?

Jan 04, 2018 09:39 PM #81

@KUSTEVE I am always glad that KU has a rep for trying to follow the rules. The stories told by prior players always paint a picture of the concern by our coaches of how the players develop not just as players but also as quality young men.

With that in mind, I doubt HCBS would work so hard to protect B Preston's eligibility if he doubted his character.

And, since we obviously want to hold athletes to a bright line test of knowing exactly what is legit and what is not, I fervently believe that all of us KU fans report every nickel of our income including gains on sales of cars and other personal property, estimate all our Goodwill donation deductions using actual FMV, and have always made sure to pay all use taxes on out of state internet purchases.

Jan 04, 2018 09:51 PM #82

The Preston Situation is causing cabin fever among the board rats. Everyone is turning on the other...

Jan 04, 2018 10:42 PM #83

Gunman said:

Innocent until proven guilty. Isn't that what makes our country judicial system stand out?

This isn't a legal case though and the NCAA doesn't have the same rules as our court systems do.

Jan 04, 2018 10:53 PM #84

Self said "any minute" last night, I think. Decision should come soon. Now, I will puke.

Jan 04, 2018 11:32 PM #85

@HighEliteMajor

I was not an athlete coming out of HS. Wasn't good enough. As a result, when I found mentors in my chosen profession, I didn't have the NCAA trying to declare me ineligible, or say I couldn't accept my scholarship, or tons of fans questioning the motives and character of myself or my family. I was able to get help and guidance from some people that, to this day, I respect a great deal. To put it simply, I know that I would not be the professional I am today, or the man I am today, without the mentorship of those individuals.

The NCAA would benefit greatly if some of these guys actually could form relationships with guys that walked their path. Wouldn't it be great if Billy Preston actually had the chance to form a relationship with a guy like Wayne Simien, or could talk to Darnell Jackson about what it's like to go through tough times in college?

Heck, wouldn't it have been great if a guy like Jacque Vaughn or Kirk Hinrich could have talked to someone like Josh Selby about how to contribute even when you're injured, or a guy like Xavier Henry having a chance to get to know Paul Pierce.

Sports is the only forum in which the current system basically forbids the next generation from developing those mentorship relationships until after they are professionals, when that next generation is competing with those guys for jobs, minutes, contracts, endorsements, etc.

I know, I know, rules, rules, rules.

But someone needs to honestly say one simple thing - this is stupid.

Jan 04, 2018 11:41 PM #86

@justanotherfan is it rules that limits those relationships or is it that the former hawks are off living their own lives?

Jan 04, 2018 11:43 PM #87

HighEliteMajor said:

Self said "any minute" last night, I think. Decision should come soon. Now, I will puke.

Ya and on top of that NOW if you go and read the article off the LJW Self is now starting to give excuses as to why it's taking longer for De Sousa to be cleared.

I give up it's looking more and more like we won't get either of them for this by the time it is all said and done

Jan 04, 2018 11:55 PM #88

Can't speak to it's validity. But a friend today said he saw rumor on a friend's fb page that Preston is cleared. The friend of my friend is an Alumni. I have seen nothing yet that supports this. So who knows

Jan 05, 2018 02:13 AM #89

@cragarhawk thanks for the scoop! :fingers_crossed:

Jan 05, 2018 02:49 AM #90

@Gunman

The principle that an individual is “presumed” incident until proven guilty is not unique to our legal system, it is part of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states: "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence."

Having said that, the NCAA is not a court of law, it is an institution which universities voluntarily join and have a saying in the operation. Likewise, student athletes do not have to follow the rules and they do not have to play NCAA sports, they can play under different organizations with different rules. If they choose to play for a NCAA member school they must follow all the rules. It is really that simple.

Jan 05, 2018 03:02 AM #91

@justanotherfan

TTBOMK, none of the mentorship you named are prohibited by the NCAA; Wayne Simien is a mentor to many players through his Called to Greatness Campus Ministry. The problem happens when mentors start providing impermissible benefits, particularly when the benefits involve a quid pro quo.

Jan 05, 2018 03:03 AM #92

Seems to me the situation must be more complicated than Billy and his Mom(s) either unknowingly or intentionally breaking some NCAA rule. If that was the case, it would have been settled in one day. They aren't stupid, and KU wouldn't have wasted time on it. If it turns out that his Mom's partner bought the car, I can see how it could fall into a gray area of rules interpretation for the NCAA, particularly if Billy and his Mom didn't think they'd need to include compliance/financial stuff about her partner up front. So that could be the issue (and would make sense with the "personal lives" stuff she tweeted about). Would also make sense why it took so long to establish her relationship with Billy. Kind of hate to speculate, but why not? Everyone else has.

Clearly at this point, if Billy and his mom had been "caught" bamboozling KU or the NCAA he'd be LONG gone, so the fact that it's dragged on beyond last semester is a positive sign to me.

Jan 05, 2018 02:03 PM #93

Maybe Billy is innocent here, maybe his Mother is right. Maybe not. Maybe naive in not even thinking the car he was driving would ever be in question. It's a plauisble thought.

I don't know whether the issue is centered around pre-existing relationships Billy or his family has with someone, if that is the reason KU compliance and the NCAA have taken a deeper look.

Nobody would care where the car comes from if he wasn't an athlete trying to play basketball. A Student wouldn't miss 14 going on 15 days of class for this.

The rules may be flawed, they are the rules but it doesn't mean they are right. Let's not act like the NCAA hasn't made some mind-boggling decisions in the past.

Cliff Alexander was ineligible for a loan his mother took without his knowledge?. How was that his fault? If he knew about it, that changes things. Did we ever know whether Cliff knew anything?

The NCAA once suspended Baylor's Perry Jones just before the start of the Big-12 tournament in 2011 and 5 games the following season because his mother accepted 3 seperate 15-day loans to keep Perry and their family from going homeless. They said Perry was suspended for "accepting impermissible benefits". What exactly did Perry accept? The person who loaned the Jones money to pay their Mortgage was someone Perry and the family knew since the 6th grade.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7630611/the-story-baylor-bears-star-perry-jones-iii-men-college-basketball ↗

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/631738-baylor-basketball-breaking-down-perry-jones ↗

I'm not assuming the Preston situation is the same as other cases but what if Billy is innocent as others have been in the past and still paid the price

Jan 05, 2018 03:31 PM #94

If we look at why it's taken so much time, @mayjay's suggestion of the difficulty getting paperwork from disinterested and unmotivated third parties is the most reasonable of the benign explanations.

"Innocence" of course is relative -- meaning, the NCAA rules determine "innocence" so to speak. That doesn't mean we like it, or that "innocence" equates with the kid having done absolutely nothing wrong on his end. If Billy was driving a car that his mom gave him and told him was his from her, but she accepted money from someone she shouldn't have, without Billy's knowledge, Billy is "innocent" in our eyes, but not to the NCAA. We are all prejudiced (or benefit by) our parents. Parents, as in Cliff's case (as @BeddieKU23 mentioned), seem to have caused Cliff's issue. Life's rough.

Jan 05, 2018 03:56 PM #95

@HighEliteMajor

The third party angle would make sense.

"she accepted money from someone she shouldn’t have, without Billy’s knowledge, Billy is “innocent” in our eyes, but not to the NCAA."

Also a valid statement. With Self's recent comments it would seem to indicate they are banking on "time served" already. "KU's de-facto hold-out/in-house-suspension" would be sufficient to cover what they found out about the car.

My second thought, why does the NCAA have rules that would penalize the student athlete if they are innocent in any wrong doing, however the parents/family made a mistake. It begs the question whether the NCAA should be in the game of penalizing an athlete for his parent(s) issue. Isn't judging whether the student (Billy) in this case did something wrong more important.. I'm just having a hard time figuring out where the line is in all this

Jan 05, 2018 04:13 PM #96

@BeddieKU23 Frankly, it would be too easy to transfer lots of goodies to a family and then claim the kid didn't know. If we or anyone else claims "unfair treatment" now when, say, UNC doesn't get slammed, imagine the outcry when bluebloods (where the recruits worth paying for tend to end up) figure out how to have their innocent little waifs commit while those behind-their-backs family members suddenly start driving new cars, taking trips to follow their darlings, and moving into nicer homes.

Jan 05, 2018 04:58 PM #97

Sorry I was a bit harsh on Billy and his mother. But I'm sick of these guys coming in here with their families and turning our athletic department (and reputation) into a Jerry Springer show.

These kids and parents should realize they are only damaging themselves. No NBA team hunts out drama as a positive factor when picking players.

Jan 05, 2018 05:04 PM #98

@mayjay

We need to FORMALIZE the training of recruits/players in staying between the lines.

It should be done with forms of media, like short films. And then Q&As afterwards to make sure it soaks in, while we document that our players are in full knowledge.

These are educational items that should be organized and designed through our compliance program.

There is NO REASON why Kansas should go down for mistakes our players make as long as our coaches and administration play fair ball.

Document, document, document.

Jan 05, 2018 05:05 PM #99

@drgnslayr

Lonzo Ball did go 2nd in the draft with as much drama associated to his name as any player I could think of..

I certainly don't agree with his mother's comments making headlines. It's not a good look.

Ultimately the man in charge of our program must make the call on these situations. Billy could have been someone else's problem to deal with..

Jan 05, 2018 05:05 PM #100

@Gunman Innocent until proven guilty.

Unless you're 11-3 with 3 home losses. Then you are stone cold guilty and somebody better do something about it damn quick.

Jan 05, 2018 05:12 PM #101

@BeddieKU23

True... but Ball is an ongoing story. We will see how that plays out in the long run. If it goes bad, I think more NBA front offices will look to stay away from drama.

Some drama is actually needed in sports. We only have to think back to the Magic/Bird era and their controversies. That was "good drama." Fans loved it!

But Ball's dad is just an arse. I always try to put the game ahead of the drama... but it is hard to watch Lonzo with approval while his dad may be killing viewership of the game.

Pretty much all pro sports are facing viewership issues. I don't think "Ball-like" drama is going to rescue them. Eventually, marketing wonks will come out of the woods and point fingers at Ball's dad, regardless of whether he did so much damage or not. It is about blaming someone else.

Jan 05, 2018 05:17 PM #102

If Ball falls out of the NBA, it will have more to do with his production than his dad's mouth.

Right now, he's averaging 10/7/7. That's not great. I thought his assist numbers would be better, and I thought he would shoot better from 3 (currently under 30%). If this continues, he won't make it. If he bumps that assist number up to 8.5, and starts shooting more in the 35% range from 3, Lonzo goes from being an iffy player to being a solid player. Not a star, but very solid, particularly because he can rebound and should be able to handle bigger guards in the post.

Jan 05, 2018 05:29 PM #103

@drgnslayr

I've been waiting for their 15 minutes of fame to end but it doesn't seem like its happening anytime soon. ESPN seems set on covering what they eat for dinner, where they get their dry-cleaning. Heck they were front and center for the younger one's practice in Lithuiana today!!! Seems as if the fabricated drama Lavar created has fooled everyone, he's famous, his kids are famous. Drama sells..

Preston's mom's tweets, that's not good drama. Whether she's right in the matter is irrelevant to the distraction it continues to bring. She called out a fan-base. What if Billy is cleared to play in the home game next week, does he get a roar from the crowd or do people take his mother's comments to heart. I have a feeling the 16,300 would support him with open arms as we do any Hawk. It does beg the question though

Jan 05, 2018 05:32 PM #104

justanotherfan said:

If Ball falls out of the NBA, it will have more to do with his production than his dad's mouth.

Sure... but you can't say his father's actions have no impact. You can't say that if there are two equal players, management wouldn't rather take the one without drama.

RIght now... all pro sports teams are focusing on viewership. Winning games is still the major factor in that. But it isn't everything. I watch some NBA. Ball's dad is a big turnoff for me and definitely doesn't inspire me to follow Lakers ball.

Jan 05, 2018 05:38 PM #105

@BeddieKU23

True. At least, it sells for a while.

I think the general public will become EXTREMELY SICK of most drama this year. Our political dramas have become overwhelming for everyone, and people are suffering from drama fatigue.

If you want to look at drama that can have long lasting positive impact... look at JoJo's personality! Look at how he is becoming a superstar and a chunk of that is his personality.

I think eventually we will get away from being a society where one can claim, "ALL publicity is GOOD publicity!"

At least... I hope so! lol

Jan 05, 2018 05:50 PM #106

@drgnslayr

Agree with everything you said.

Jan 06, 2018 04:15 PM #107

This forum is so refreshing! I happened upon a facebook group that is called Kansas University Basketball Recruiting. I thought, oh, that looks interesting, so I liked it. Big mistake, but now I have a purpose there. It's hilarious. Type something like "Dang this team is soft" and here's a typical response: "Get lost troll" "GTFO" "You're not a KU fan" One guy whom I questioned about his post that the NCAA always picks on us, nobody else asked why I'm on there because I'm obviously a Duke or Kentucky fan. When I asked him if he wanted to see my KU degree, he doubted that. I asked him if he was a KU grad. He had no response!

Most of the posts this week have been people contributing nothing more than "I don't care what happens, I'm a Jayhawk fan for life because I bleed Crimson and Blue"

Of course very little of it has to do with KU recruiting.

Then the thread on Billy's moms tweet took on a decidedly different tone than here. No objectivity, just a bunch of absolute 100% agreement with what she wrote. Anyone who did question it was called all sorts of names.

One person even called me a Wisconsin fan to which I pled guilty. Even with every privacy setting possible on FB he figured that out!

BTW this could be the year two impressive streaks ends, our conference championship streak and UW's NCAA tournament streak.

Anyways, this cordial discussion I read through today has been a good reminder of what we have here! I appreciate you guys and gals!

Jan 06, 2018 04:28 PM #108

Facebook is terrible.

Jan 06, 2018 04:30 PM #109

I kind of like to think of myself as the @elpoyo of the facebook group!

Jan 06, 2018 04:32 PM #110

@drgnslayr It's who can be the loudest bigmouth. It's just part of our overall cultural decline. It's chest pounding, screaming, "look at me" garbage that has spread like a cancer since it began back in the 90s. Now we see these idiots pounding their chests and screaming because they make a routine tackle. It's a joke. And it's proliferated with the disease that is social media.

Jan 06, 2018 04:50 PM #111

@HighEliteMajor I'd pound my chest if I made a routine tackle.

Jan 06, 2018 04:54 PM #112

@HighEliteMajor I notice it more even at HS and Jr. High levels these days. All that type of thing was strictly verboten when I played. In fact. Any sort of end zone celebration at all after a touchdown would get you unsportsmanlike... I'm not sure why or when it all became okay. I find myself looking for the kids that don't do it. It's a rarity.

Jan 06, 2018 06:12 PM #113

cragarhawk said:

@HighEliteMajor I notice it more even at HS and Jr. High levels these days. All that type of thing was strictly verboten when I played. In fact. Any sort of end zone celebration at all after a touchdown would get you unsportsmanlike... I'm not sure why or when it all became okay. I find myself looking for the kids that don't do it. It's a rarity.

Sprechen sie Deutsch?

Jan 06, 2018 06:16 PM #114

@HawkChamp ?

Jan 06, 2018 06:17 PM #115

HighEliteMajor said:

@drgnslayr It's who can be the loudest bigmouth. It's just part of our overall cultural decline. It's chest pounding, screaming, "look at me" garbage that has spread like a cancer since it began back in the 90s. Now we see these idiots pounding their chests and screaming because they make a routine tackle. It's a joke. And it's proliferated with the disease that is social media.

This post belongs in the Politics category, right?

Jan 06, 2018 06:37 PM #116

cragarhawk said:

@HawkChamp ?

You said verboten.

Jan 06, 2018 06:42 PM #117

@HawkChamp I like it. It's one of those big words with a little meaning.

Jan 06, 2018 06:45 PM #118

This current look at me culture in sports can be traced directly to Muhammad Ali. Others that have a big influence would be Ricky Henderson, Deion Sanders, Michael Jordan, and Shaq. The difference between these guys and regular athletes is they could back up everything they said they are all hall of famers.

It is beyond ridiculous now and a perfect example would be from the 76ers-Pistons game a couple of nights ago. Andre Drummond actually tried to shush the crowd after he made two FT's. That's a big deal for Drummond because he's in the Shaq range of terrible FT shooting, but the real issue is that at the time, the two FT's cut the 76ers lead to 30. That's right, Drummond was trying to shush the crowd when his team was down 30 points.

Jan 06, 2018 08:49 PM #119

@wissox Whatever, Kentucky fan.

Jan 06, 2018 09:22 PM #120

Texas-Hawk-10 You are exactly right. Ali was the first loudmouth, really. But I think there was a gap there. Ali was kind like this unique, special, one of a kind loudmouth. While it is clear the that elements of the American black culture has been the major catalyst for this deterioration in sportsmanship, humility, and civility on the athletic fields and arenas, a significant player was Ric Flair. There was a large gap between Ali and what we saw in the 90s. If you saw the 30 for 30, they quoted the hip hop industry and Snoop Dog as seeing Flair as somewhat of a hero. Of course, that wasn't real sports. But here are some interesting links on the topics.

https://theundefeated.com/features/ric-flair-and-black-fandom-in-wrestling/ ↗

http://www.complex.com/sports/how-legendary-ric-flair-became-hip-hops-favorite-wrestler ↗

A Snoop Dog quote from the first article, with Flair first linking Ali and Flair -
“I mean, why did people like Ali?” Flair asks in the documentary. “No one has marketed themselves in boxing like Ali.” Moments later, rapper Snoop Dogg appears on the screen and explains how Flair pulled from and was an inspiration of the early roots of hip-hop and black culture. “As a kid growing up watching Ric Flair, he was very inspirational to myself and a lot of other hip-hop artists because he represented what we wanted to be,” Snoop Dogg said. “We wanted to be Ric Flair; we wanted to be flamboyant and the ‘kiss-stealin, wheelin-and-dealin,’ we wanted to be all of that. He was a part of our culture and our life. That’s why we love him and we cherish him. We’ve always held him high in the black community, because Ric is one of us.”

When I mention "elements of American black culture", the KU dichotomy is the clearest example -- Chris Harris and Aqib Talib. Harris is an amazing guy. Talib is a thug. The latter is the type of garbage that has undeniably been glorified in elements of the black community, led by the hip-hop industry.

@mayjay I am sorry, did you say something?

Jan 06, 2018 10:25 PM #121

@HighEliteMajor No need to. You always prove my points for me.

Jan 06, 2018 10:28 PM #122

The best endzone celebration was Billy White Shoes Johnson.