He's a good player generally by any measure and this thread is not intended to bash him. That said, is it the end of the world if he goes pro?
Looking it over objectively
Positives
Shooting percentage/dunks
Interior defense
Negatives
Rebounding for his size
Offense outside of 2 feet
Pick and roll/outside defense
I think he still has a huge upside. He's still very raw. He's only 18 years old, and has been playing basketball only 5 years. He's huge and athletic and still learning the game. He wasn't ready to carry the team this year as our only big, but with some help next year and more time to learn how to grab a rebound, he can still be a monster for us. I hope he stays another year.
He's a bit stiff for the modern NBA. If this was the 80s he'd be a solid top 15 pick. I think he will be back for another year.
If he stays, he needs to make free throws a priority.
Come to think of it, if he leaves he probably needs to make it a priority too.
If he goes pro it would be the biggest shock Iāve ever heard of.
Gladly have Doke back next year. He wont have to do as much as we needed from him this year with the other bigs we'll have. And I just can't see that he's ready for the association
As we have seen with his story and his mom doke has a family to look after. He's going to find someone that can take care of him and his family. In 4-5 years he could be something if he's healthy.. definitely young enough for some pro team to take him. And by pro team that could be anywhere overseas
In my opinion ku would be better starting Lawson and silvio and getting started on the future with McCormack and Kj
Silvio next year will not have the luxury of "he just got here". He is really raw on the offensive end. He only scored on lobs and put backs. He did awesome this year on short notice but will need more next year.
@BigBad I think part of it is he knows his role on this team isn't to shoot. He showed a decent face up game in HS so hopefully that can translate to this level when he has a larger role. If he is mostly just a junkyard dog next year that's probably fine though. He rebounds hard.
@BeddieKU23 so you could care less what happens to doke?
@BigBad Yeah he is a very good athlete. I'd love to see him improve next season of course, I just don't think it's a key at all. His usage rate will not be that high imo. Say the line-up is Dotson, Grimes, Langford, Dedric, Silvio. He's the fifth option on offense and probably doesn't take many shots that aren't put backs.
@Crimsonorblue22 That's not what he said at all...
Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BeddieKU23 so you could care less what happens to doke?
Not at all I hope he seeks options to get money to support his family. 2 significant injuries in 2 years, someone will take a chance on him. He's young and there is already enough skills to work with and obviously some that can be worked on. All I'm saying if he leaves I support it and with the kids we have we might actually be better in the long run going that route
Thatās exactly what I meant
@BeddieKU23 We all saw was given a perfect example of what would happen to Doke if he tried to opt for the NBA right now. - -he would be eaten alive just as he was tonight. - - he is going to be in trouble as he is not the typical 5 in the NBA today and he can't defend the typical 5 of today in the NBA
jayballer73 said:
@BeddieKU23 We all saw was given a perfect example of what would happen to Doke if he tried to opt for the NBA right now. - -he would be eaten alive just as he was tonight. - - he is going to be in trouble as he is not the typical 5 in the NBA today and he can't defend the typical 5 of today in the NBA
I generally agree that the game vs Nova was not a good look for Doke. I thought his effort was the most troubling part, I thought he gave up on plays. But we have to remember Doke was what 80-85% maybe? He was just not 100% for the entire tournament and put in a ton of work just to play for us. I'm glad he was able to get back out there and sacrifice his body for the team.
Stretch 5's are a mismatch for everyone which is why a player like Kristaps Porzingis is such a tough cover in the NBA for example. But there isn't 30 teams with a Porzingis so its not fair to say Doke is a mismatch defensively for the NBA but there are a few teams/players he will probably always be a bad option for. I think I heard Self recently within the past month say his pick and roll defense was really good (before the injury) so that's something Doke can hang his hat on as something he does well that the NBA relies heavily on.
I hope Doke comes back and wants another year to work on his game. He's had about 50 games of actual basketball in his life so there is no substitute for a player like him simply getting more experience. If he leaves and hopes someone gives him a chance, anywhere, he might not get the personalized treatment he would get at KU over this summer/fall that can actually help him.
I think he's been gone this whole season. Just my thought and his post game comments certainly didn't leave much to decipher from the way I saw it in regards to his decision as well. Knowing his family situation and the struggles he's been put through to get here he's certainly in a position to change that now. Another year doesn't guarantee anything, he could get injured again and miss his chance or he could have a really good season and give himself more stability in seeking a contract. Whatever he chooses I support, selfishly I'd like to see him in a KU uniform another year. I do think if he leaves KU is prepared for it.
A couple of things. One, I think this is an overreaction to the loss a teeny tiny bit. If Doke gets Spellman two quick fouls, the post would be talking about how much we hope Doke comes back. Two, I 100% think the team next season is better WITH him. You can break that out in 3 ways as I see it . There is Doke's individual talent, the effect he has on the team next season, and the way the Coach utilizes his talents.
Individually, you would take him 100% of the time. You can't replace someone shooting ,787 in Conference play. That equates to a 52% 3pt percentage to match his points per attempt. That's unreal. His freshmen year, when he wasn't on any type of restriction or trying to play 20+ minutes per game, his block percentage was 12%. This season it was 7%. I think next season, we would see it meet somewhere in the middle, close to 10%. That would make him a near elite level rim protector. To top that off, at his age, he has so much untapped potential. The guy added two new go to moves, mid season. His block percentage and shooting percentage went UP in conference play, when most player's goes down due to better competition. He is quite possibly the best post player in CBB next season when he is playing guarding a big that can't shoot from the outside.
As far as his effect on the team, I don't think he was a great fit for the 2017-2018 team. At times, it looked like someone driving a Ferrari, but they had a Uhaul on the back. We had 4 guards who could run and shoot as well as anyone in the country. It wasn't a good fit. But the lack of depth forced that bad mesh. On the 2018-2019 team though, I think he fits nicely. When paired with another Big, I think Doke will only become even more dangerous. He has already shown his ability to make good interior passes. He is great at sealing players off and catching the lob. I expect to see vintage Hi-Lo lobs all game long for easy buckets. When you combine his presence as a rim protector with Dedric, Silvio or Mitch, our D just got sured up quite a bit. It will let our guards play out past the 3 point line more. Playing two bigs will also get us back to the hedge instead of switch Pick and Roll D. That will help Doke quite a bit in those scenarios. If we do face another Big that can shoot the 3 or take Doke off the drive, I would agree that he shouldn't be playing. But that leads me to the next part of the equation.
Self loves the post up. He does. He never won't love it. He never will stray away from it. If he isn't force feeding Doke next season, he is force feeding Dedric. There is nothing we will be able to do about it. And, if Self is going to continue to force feed the post, I would much rather have a guy who shoots at 78% doing the posting up. So, it makes no sense to not have him next season if we are going to go back to a slower pace with two bigs on the court. We may actually be able to size our way to a championship next season, imo. I just don't know any team that will be able to stop the Doke and Dedric combo.
The real question we need to ask, can Bill evolve his two big system to allow more freedom than in the past. Can we let Dedric, Mitch and KJ shoot 3s freely without being yanked from a game? Can he get over his love affair with the on the blocks post up and strictly use the HI-Lo to get easy lobs (or easy layups if they start playing behind to take the lob away). Can Bill not be stubborn and realize when Doke is a liability and play him 5 minutes in certain games? Bill needs to keep evolving if he wants to win another Championship.
Yeah Dok needs to work on his free throws. It's nice that he starts with his elbow in but he needs to keep his elbow in when he starts the shooting motion too. And not shoot from the left side of his face.
Then boxing out. He should be able to box out ANYONE. With his big body and soft hands, he should be excellent at rebounding.
Silvio so far is a Dennis Rodman with worse defense and better shooting touch. Can't wait to see him play next year.
Great post by the way.
I can definitely see Doke looking better with a return to the Hi/Low and having another big alongside him.
It will be interesting to see whether Doke views himself returning as beneficial with Lawson coming in to take a big role. Doke might not get the touches & usage he was enjoying this season with the thin roster. I don't know how much that plays into his decision really. McCormack could have been insurance for him leaving after this year all along. Who knows..
I'm in the camp of wanting Doke to come back. I think having that huge asset/weapon is much better than not having it. I think Self will not hesitate to go with a lineup when needed that has Doke on the bench (Desousa/D. Lawson). I also think competition will be good for him. Doke should really come back because he can only get better. Some time to add maturity can't hurt either. I don't think he's a guy that has peaked in value, and I don't think he'll ever lose value (except for major injury). But I also think we have the opportunity to be just as good if he turns pro, as @BShark referenced.
Overall I would like Doke back. Hopefully he can stay healthy either way.
@BShark My only concern, and it might be overblown, is that Self relies too much on thinking he can throw it into Doke for a basket. And more precisely, that our offense is centered around that. I've never liked that reliance and I think it can be fatal to an effective offensive attack. I want our offense to be diverse, with options (not limits) and I think we could be quite dynamic with a stretch 4. Doke is a good interior passer and that could open up a whole new aspect of the game with a more true 4 working inside.
I am all for Doke coming back!!! It is good for everyone. He needs the experience as he has really only one NBA ready attribute (his size) and Kansas would benefit from his skills and the added depth. A front-court next year of Doke, De Sousa, McCormack, Lawson, Lawson and Mitch seems like an incredible group with a number of guys with different strengths and talents.
Also, it has taken me a couple of days to look at the site since our season ended and I am very pleased with what I have read so far today. I think most of us realize that this KU team was very special but also in many ways almost over achieved by winning yet another Big 12 title and reaching the Final 4. 31 wins, Big 12 Title, Final 4 appearance, 1st Team All American...hard to ask for much more than that. Hats off to Nova for their win. The first half was one of the most incredible displays of shooting I have ever seen and honestly don't plan to see again any time soon.
Usually when we are saying a player should come back to work on this and that they leave.. Sometimes we get lucky but most of the time they leave.
In this case Doke isn't on NBA radars but still has a decision to make. Will be looking forward to seeing what Self has to say about him when the team banquet and such comes up
Doke is almost certainly going to declare and go through the process, as he should. I for one am interested in how he checks out athletically if heās healthy.
I also really, really want him back. He just makes the roster fit together. I love Silvio, but I donāt really want to lean on him for 25 MPG, and Iād rather not have Dave the 4th big. With another summer of Hudy, Doke can get in even better shape and the coaches will have plenty of time to coach him up. Remember, he didnāt get the entire summer last year because of his injury, which is part of his FT struggle. With a full summer, he can get to be a 55-60% shooter, which is enough to keep teams honest. With the added depth, he can be aggressive in rebounding and blocking shots. Dedric is elite at those as well, so weāre going to be a feared defensive team again.
@FarmerJayhawk Well said, I hope Doke returns too. More options is a good thing. I trust Self to figure out rotations and situational line-ups.
Doke has become more like Landen in many ways. He gives you some big tangibles in the paint. We all know his FTs need work, but this off season will provide FT time. His footwork in the paint and around the rim is so improved. He's not flashy or a short range shooter, but he provided big minutes and rebounds that we otherwise lost games.
Big Dave is going to have a learning curve just like Doke. I see him being foul prone. I do see DLaw and Silvio becoming pick and pop 4s. Doke and Dave can work the paint. Doke needed a lot of rest in many games, but we just didn't have the bigs and Big Dave will be an added relief. Meeotch is that glue that has carried the big man torch from LL, and is now passing it on to Doke and Big Dave. I like Meeotch sticking around as the big man glue and I credit him for coaching up Doke and Silvio. Our front court will finally have much needed depth and we won't have to rely on our back court to guard bigs. We were fortunate against Puke and it ran out against Nova. I see DLaw and Silvio matching much better with the Spellmans and the Paschalls. I see DLaw and Silvio being match-up nightmares.
@drgnslayr To be fair the ft line is more than two feet away from the basket. ;)
Found Doke a Free Throw Coach....(Marmaton is in Southeast Ks)
All jokes aside, what is the deal with Doke and his abysmal shooting stroke? Jo Jo has a great stroke. De Sousa has shocked me with how great his form is and how confident he appears at the FT line. Do any of you guys know what the deal is and can it be fixed? Are Doke's hands significantly larger than these other guys who are 7 feet tall? He would be a monster on offense if he could just develop into a guy who could hit an 8 foot jump shot and shoot 65% from the line.
Doke = Shaq, completely useless outside of 5 feet from the hoop. I see no chance of him going to the nba at this point in time, true bigs have already gone to the wayside in the league.
@joeloveshawks I think Doke needs to work on Free throws, but other than that he needs to really just work on his body and athleticism. Offensively, he is an advanced stats dream in the post. He only dunks the ball. There have been a lot of NBA players with less offensive skill than him.
What he needs to work on is his lower body and athleticism. He needs to be able to guard another 7-footer out to the 3pt line, as we saw. If he can do that, his value sky rockets.
I think part of this will come naturally. At 18, Doke still doesn't have his "man body" where all his limbs work together. I saw several times this year where he looked like a baby dear trying to walk. I think just him developing into a grown ass man will help him with coordination both defensively and perhaps even shooting free throws..
Now I know guys sounds crazy , don't ask me what the site was - -it was just another KU site that happen to be on face book. - -Several KU boards show up there. - However and I thought wow a guy posted on there that they had seen where Doke was a late 1st round pick - -Vick was a high 2nd round pick and then Newman was a late 2nd round pick - that sounds crazy as all get out. - -Again I surpose I could go back to my face boo and see if I can find the group but has anyone else seen this BS ? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
If any of our guys but Devonte go in the first Iāll eat my shoes. Love them, but we didnāt have NBA talent this year.
@FarmerJayhawk I want to watch!
@Statmachine Iāll FB Live it or something then š.
As far as the Subject of Doke. If I were a NBA GM #1 Doke's conditioning is not good. He could only average 20 something mpg. He wouldnt fair well in back to back games and he is too heavy. His weight adds to being injured. #2 Doesnt rebound at a NBA level. #3 no outside game. #4 no midrange game. #5 free throws. He has a lot of work to do and wouldnt make the roster at the end of the summer on any NBA team. There are a lot of free agents who I would rather have on my team if it were my money.
@FarmerJayhawk Newman is going to be the first Jayhawk drafted most likely. He could be a late 1st rounder too according to some mocks now.
Svi is intriguing as an NBA prospect because he's still only 20 years old and would be 21 when the draft happens. That's still young enough to be a potential late 1st round draft and stash player. I really wouldn't be too shocked if Graham ended up being the 3rd KU player taken in the draft this year.
FarmerJayhawk said:
If any of our guys but Devonte go in the first Iāll eat my shoes. Love them, but we didnāt have NBA talent this year.
Your shoes? or the players?
:confounded:
mayjay said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
If any of our guys but Devonte go in the first Iāll eat my shoes. Love them, but we didnāt have NBA talent this year.
Your shoes? or the players?
:confounded:
OUCH :face_palm_tone2:
I agree. Malik helped himself immensely in the later part of the season and post season and it would not surprise me if he is drafted in the first round. Also agree that Svi has more room to grow than a DevontƩ. Having said that, DevontƩ is an intriguing player with experience that could step in and play right away much like Mason is doing at Sacramento.
Your post is right on the money. Doke needs at least one more year in college (the focus on "at least").
He has three super-positive attributes, making him worthy to pursue the NBA:
Size
Improves Quickly
Attitude
I don't think people give him the credit he deserves for how quickly he changed his body over the past year.
If you really want to be shocked, view some recent game footage of him (before he was injured) and compare that with his footage before coming to Lawrence. He's still adjusting to his new body, and his new body is still improving dramatically!
I am thinking he will stay for one more year. I'd love to see him stay 2 years to rocket to the top of the draft boards, but who knows... maybe he can get there in 1 year!
What is key for Devonte is to find the right pro situation. The right team... owners... coaches... and of course, the right situation.
He will have to raise his level of play and to hold that level consistently. I think he can use quite a bit of work on his defense... crossovers... etc.
@drgnslayr I think we all give him the credit he deserves. He has made some major strides. That being said after all of the improvement he has made he is still a one dimensional player.
I heard someone talk about Embiid, and Simmons before the season started. They said that Embiid and Simmons were like a one hit wonder at this stage in their career . They could get out there and be GREAT for a couple songs BUT Golden State was like a headliner band that could play all night long and everyone would be able to sing every song they played.
Doke might be able to play the cowbell for one of these bands BUT could easily be replaced any day of the week by a Jahlil Okafor or any other Free Agent.
As long as it is not Sacramento, Phoenix or Memphis which appear to be the bottom franchises and where KU players seem to land. :anguished:
I agree. Doke is right now a one dimensional player and his particular dimension is one that is being phased out. He needs to develop a mid range game and become better at rebounding since he is a below average rebounder for his size. He can probably improve both playing an extra year in college otherwise he will be playing overseas.
Agreed. There are many one-dimensional players in the league, but their one dimension is so strong they can be used to just work their one big thing.
Players wanting into the league should bring in several skills if they hope to make it and see a lot of floor time. Contrary to what many think, defense is played in the NBA. It's just the fact that players/teams have mastered so much offense that it tends to dominate the game, and the league wants to see plenty of offense, too, so seats get filled. Adding in a 3-pt perimeter line was all about bringing more offense, by adding a point and helping spread out defenses. Imagine the game without the trey now? We would look at it as ugly play, mostly in the post. A lot bigger players with limited handles, smashing it up in the paint.
Doke has a long long ways to go to be pro ready. But on the bright side, he seems to be a fast learner and is dedicated to the game. I never thought he would be this good at the end of the year. He has come so far, so fast! Still... a long ways to go.
In my book, it would be nuts if he left this year... but I've usually guessed wrong about players. I expect him to be a very improved player by next fall. I believe he will work out his form on a shot, so he will be improved at the FT line, and also be able to hit mid-range shots. Hopefully, he will learn more tools for his chest, like how to keep his big body between the defender and the ball and his shot.
He needs to learn how to better use his lower body to battle for rebound position. He has the size needed, but just hasn't acquired that skill yet of bending his knees, lowering his center of gravity, and then pushing with his butt while keeping his arms wide to prevent anyone slipping by him for a rebound. This same skill will come in handy when trying to establish himself in the low post on offense.
I hope he stays. It will be good for us and him. I'm excited to imagine him back next year and can't wait to see all the improvements he brings with him!
I think it would probably be best for Doke if he stayed but I could also see him wanting to start getting paid so he can move his mom out of Nigeria.
@Statmachine
Embiid has never been a 1 dimensional player. At least not since he was at KU. Dude has been dripping with talent in multiple phases of the game since his Frosh year.