🏀 KuBuckets Archive

I am so disappointed. I have lived under a false illusion. I was naive. I believed. I had faith.

While I have enjoyed the banter in past years related to Bill Self's on court decisions, I have held one thing to be true -- we have a coach of extremely high character, one that we can be proud of.

I don't believe any more.

I've read comments here, and around the twisted world of social media. I am just flat embarrassed by what some KU fans will say to spin this. Look at the FBI thread here. Spinning the information to try and hold on to the illusion of innocence, or what can be "proven."

Guys, we all need to get real. We are not a lawyer for the head of a crime family. The issue is not whether we can get off, or pay off a juror, or not get punished. I hope everyone grasps that.

We all need to understand that it is over. We were in one place before this trial began, and now we're in another place now. Different worlds. One world was predictable and easy. The other world is laced with land mines and dangerous.

One of my fears in this prosecution was that it could target the pristine guy. The one that was held beyond reproach. The guy who seemed to be the perfect coach. Why? To get that big time conviction. To make the news. And to destroy the NCAA (whom a certain segment despises -- the misguided "exploitation of athletes" crowd). I'm not surprised.

The question was, why bother targeting Gatto, etc? Very small fish. And I answered the question at the time. To get to the more important targets.

Everything changes now. Would anyone be surprised if this thing takes on a life of its own? That the media firestorm becomes immense? That the KC Star makes this their focal point?

Would you be surprised if by season's end Bill Self is not the head coach at Kansas?

Heck, would it surprise you if Kansas demanded return of salary from Bill Self based on a breach of contract?

Would you be surprised if a criminal charge is filed against Bill Self for conspiring to defraud the University of Kansas? Or first against an assistant coach as the appetizer?

Would it surprise you if there is a nasty little wiretap floating around out there?

To the point I made in one of my first posts after this entire story broke last spring -- the prosecutor could really be focusing on the high profile target and developing the case. Getting his witnesses. If the prosecutor gets convictions, do you think it possible that the newly convicted felons, on the precipice of a stint doing federal time, might spill the beans?

What should be concerning is the prosecutor's desires here. And the motives of the prosecution.

But irrespective of a future prosecution, this could still mushroom into a disgusting spectacle for the program we love.

Nothing should surprise you.

And please don't suggest that there is no "proof" that Bill Self knew that Adidas paid players. This insults everyone's intelligence.

And please don't suggest there is "no way" any of the scenarios I referenced above could happen.

I can assure you, we are entering a very new arena. It is extremely treacherous. There are many twists and turns to come.

But whatever. We're along for the ride, like it or not.

Regardless, I will never, ever look at Bill Self the same way again. When you truly believe something about a person, and that belief is shattered, it just makes you feel stupid.

It is over. And I am wildly disappointed.

Is this real ??

I agree with some of what you are saying and it needs to be said, but I'm surprised with your candy coated view of college athletics. I'm not stunned by this, but then I was always fairly confident about things that happened at KU, so I didn

Self isn't going anywhere unless he gets convicted of something.

@BShark My candy coated view of Bill Self. A man I viewed as having a level of integrity beyond reproach.

"The misguided "exploitation of athletes" crowd."

You're definitely right that some people are misguided.

@HighEliteMajor Fair enough. I was always pretty sure about some things that happened at KU under Self. So I assumed he wasn't really clean by NCAA standards. But I also don't think it's a big deal because these kids obviously have more value than a scholarship. I know I've been beating that drum for awhile, but that's all but impossible to deny now, right?

This is systemic because the system is broken. Clean because a kid wants to go there recruitments are the exception. This happens across all levels of college athletics, schools and recruits of any and all rankings. Even kids that are in-state or have connections to the program will often take because they know it's on the table.

I particularly disagree that KU is in a different place now. Maybe for a short time publicly, but KU has always been deep in the crootin' waters. You don't field a good team if you aren't.

Like I said previously, KU players are never wanting for anything. Even the kids from poor families have new cars. I don't think that's a problem though. The sell tickets and apparel for the university. College athletics are major sport, hardly truly amateur.

@Woodrow This isn't a fascist website, like Fakebook, Youtube and Twitter. We don't delete differing opinions on Buckets. We allow practically every knee jerk reaction you could imagine, from fools naming Malik Newman as a cancer on the team to calling our coach a whole litany of names over the years. Maybe this time they'll put their money where their sanctimonious mouth is, and decide they are just too good to a KU fan. We can all dream, can't we?

Also, we will see very soon, but I don't think anyone gets convicted in the current trial. I think the defense did a reasonable job creating a "shadow of doubt". Now, there will be more cases to come with those other assistants. Maybe the NCAA sham will finally be over but it's way too early to say.

I continue to be amazed by posts like @KUSTEVE's. And amazed that folks approve of this stuff. By my count already, four upvotes, one by a site administrator.

Is this really what we want on this site?

Someone takes time to create a thread, on an important topic that impacts the program we love, and this is the type of garbage that is acceptable here?

From a guy that goes back to Kusports.com, a guy who worked hard to get material on this site as it started, and a guy that made continued efforts to post significant basketball related analysis for years, it's really just sad.

Stuff like this begs a response, but what happens is the response throws the thread into chaos. If you respond, then we get threats of locking down the thread, which is exactly what folks like @KUSTEVE want.

Again, is this what we want from this site?

Differing view points on the situation are fine, and this thread doesn't need to be locked.

@BShark I'm sorry, but how is @KUSTEVE's post a differing opinion?

I didn't say it was, I'm just saying threads shouldn't be locked because of that.

STEVE is just giving you shit.

@HighEliteMajor Sometimes upvotes reflect approval of everything someone says, or maybe just part. Sometimes they simply mean to acknowledge that someone has said something different. I have often approved posts that I disagreed with or that disagreed with me, provided the comment reflected an effort to communicate.

Red Rooster, of course, upvoted everybody, every post, and it was funny how his doing that gave a feeling of being in a group.

@BShark No, it's not giving me sh. So when I respond, is that me just giving him sh? We've been there before. Somehow when I stick back up @KUSTEVE's a, as I've done before, it is not just me giving him sh?

@mayjay So, if I commented in response that @KUSTEVE would be easier to understand if he took Bill Self's Di** out of his mouth, that's an effort to communicate? I would certainly think not. But with that sort of post coming at me, that's a quick and easy way (though a distasteful way) of making my point.

Quite frankly, the entire idea of this anger and animosity that always seems to come from some people in response to a simple thread is sad.

@HighEliteMajor To me it's more like....I wanted to believe that it wasn't happening, but I knew it was. This just validates what I had been fearing. There was too much smoke. My biggest fear is that we (and Self) get it in the neck worse than other programs because of the texts. If our program is the only one with texts that have become public.....we could be in serious trouble. And I agree with you about the comment about no proof...while the texts were purposely non-specific...we all know what they mean.

@Hawk8086 Given that they already have put out other texts and phone calls, KT/Self aren't the only ones.

@Hawk8086 Unfortunately, I guess I believed that it wasn't happening at Kansas. That we were led by a man of unquestionable integrity and that he wasn't doing it like some others might have been. I do believe that there are high character folks. And I thought Bill Self was in that category. And for folks to now say that, oh, that's how CBB operates, is quite hollow.

But it is how CBB operates, I've been saying it well before the trial. @jaybate-1-0 has long been saying it, though I don't know his thoughts on KU's involvement of course.

Let it play out, folks.....

@HighEliteMajor I got to say I'm extremely disappointed too. I thought we lost all those guys because we didn't play that game. I can't believe Self is that stupid too. Just thought he held our program to a higher level!

Having some fun.

!alt text ↗

!alt text ↗

LMAO!!!!!!!
1.) take a chill pill we will be fine. the FBI never clearly presented a paper trail of impermissible benefits everything was text messages and circumstantial evidence.

2.) Its 2018 not 1918 college sports is a billion dollar Industry football and basketball respectively every program in America is breaking some kind of rule even as we speak.

3.) Ku will survive this

@HighEliteMajor Sadly, I agree. I don't want to agree. But, I must.
If Townsend knew of money being handed under the table and even went so far as to say that they needed to make that happen for Zion to come to KU, then there is zero chance Bill Self didn't know what was going on. Zero chance.

Oh man, this does not look good. Not at all.

I posed a similar question last spring. "Is Bill Self Dirty?" was my post and it drew some mild wrath. I tend to be a trusting person and still have faith as @ReggieKansas and others have that this will turn out all right. But I too have some doubts. There's some dirty stuff out there being thrown around out there with our programs good name attached to it.

Now I'd be chagrined if we bear the brunt of this with so much shade being cast on other big name programs. For the life of me I can't figure out why Arizona was allowed to step foot on the court after their public shaming last season, ironically of course to get a player supposedly coming to KU. Duke and Kentucky's annual stack of blue chips just magically happens every year. While we haven't starved for blue chips, we're definitely a step below those programs. Let's just hope a lot of teams are brought down with us if indeed we are brought down.

@HighEliteMajor I’d recommend sitting down and watching 2 of my favorite basketball movies Blue Chips and He Got Game, both movies shed light into what happens during recruiting. Also I’d watch the HBO documentary on the scandal of the 1950 CCNY basketball team (only team to win the NC and NIT in the same year). I disagree with paying players, I wish I had the chance to go to school for free and get thousands of dollars in clothing, meals and housing for free while I was there. But I’ve thought for years that guys were getting paid, heck UK was busted for it back in the 50s. I hate it but everyone’s doing it and if you don’t you’ve not going to win. ever. As I posted on another thread a D1 assistant claimed “No player is free”. As long as the shoe companies, rich boosters are involved and people pay to watch, kids will get paid. It’s the same way in college football, heck I know that played at the junior college level and got a car. The NCAA won’t dig deeper because they won’t take down the ACC and SEC, those conferences line their pockets and they’ve changed rules and not held any school accountable for decades. The NCAA has one sole purpose whether anyone wants to admit it or not, make money.

@HighEliteMajor I think Bill really tried to play it straight, and what those texts reveal is a man a few meters down the slippery slope but grasping for some lesser standard that still represents a line he won't cross. "Just need a few real guys".

Would it sting you worse if he was involved in paying the 2008 team? I'd have a very hard time with that. I can still convince myself that this is a recent development.

I'm disappointed the most in the fact that the "bag man" and Self didn't have layers of separation. Gassnola and Self are not even in the same stratosphere of character but somehow, someway they are connected in this and the optics look bad. That's my two cents here.

In reading the texts, consider two thoughts: What would they read like if KU was innocent and simply relied on Adidas' influence to have access?

vs

What would they read like if KU knowingly took advantage of Adidas paying players?

In the second, wouldn't there be some reference at least to some unspecified "arrangement" or "thing" or "taking care of it" or something?

As to KT, if you read it, it refers to what Zion's family wanted. I do not see a reference to knowing what other schools have offered or paid players. I suspect players' families make demands all the time (Preston, Bowen, etc) but I don't think they get everything they are looking for.

In looking at evidence that raises an "uh oh, this looks bad", you always have to go through the process of deciding if it is BOTH consistent with guilt AND inconsistent with innocence. Many innocent statements can look suspicious, but that is why you have to look at the context, as several have said. The context about KU's participation in any scheme does not include, however, statements made by other people in other schools who voice accusations not supported anywhere else.

This isn't parsing: this is simply looking beyond the disappointment and fear to examine the actual information putting y'all in such a dither. I don't see anything actionable against the staff from this material. It might be there eventually, and it could warrant investigation, but I don't see this stuff as sufficient for sanctions except for a possible suspension of SDS.

A related question: Do the rule changes by the NCAA allowing them to use evidence from other proceedings allow them to use excluded evidence (offered, but not admitted)?

@HighEliteMajor Suck it up, Buttercup. When you run the Missourah ( KU is evil) NPC meme, you're going to take some hits. Appreciate all of your pre-season analysis concerning the team, btw....Oh wait...you didn't find anything compelling enough to comment this year until now. It appears you seem more giddy about Self being in trouble than you are with this year's team. Maybe if you popped in every once in a while, and gave us your take on who you think the team's cancer will be this year, it wouldn't appear like you popped in after 6 months to simply bash the coach. Not even one comment about Late Night, and now a novel about your evil nemesis, Coach Self. A new member thought your latest coach bash was a parody, so I simply tried to give him some background, if you will. I'm sorry if my comment has driven you to the brink of insanity, but as you are so fond of saying.... " everybody has the right to their own opinion".

I still cant believe fans of Lance Armstrong were surprised he was using PEDs. People that were that naive must not have been paying attention to the whole sport where EVERYONE either tested positive or admitted doping. College basketball is the same thing and anyone who thinks their team is clean is just as naive. I live in Dayton Ohio and have known several players and others associated with Wright State over the years. Believe me it happens EVERYWHERE.

@BigBad Exactly. This kind of stuff goes on at Washburn for crying out loud.

It happens at the High School level as well. It's happening as we speak. I was told this week of one case involving a shoe company and a 2019 player committed to a school. There was an actual bidding war among schools under the same shoe affiliation for his signature.

Nothing stopped folks, College Ball is still dirty even as a trial goes on about how dirty it is

I think the people that are disappointed are pretty naive. This has been going on since the 60's with UCLA. It happened in our backyard with Myron Piggie. This is the game of major college athletics.

So are the people that are just so disappointed going to stop watching and supporting Self and KU?? I mean I would assume you have too right?

@Woodrow I think you are missing my point, I love KU, that's why I'm disappointed. I'd never stop watching or going to games, I watch every KU fb game. I don't care that "everybody" does it.

The Alexander and Preston crap dented my appreciation for KU Hoops. Then when the DeSousa stuff surfaced I pretty much retired from daily reading and commenting on this site. With another promising season about to get underway my spirits are lifted somewhat. But I will never again buy into any semblance of belief regarding the innocence of Bill Self and the program. KU might not be as crooked as the programs of Good Ol' Roy Boy, his mentor Dean, and Mr. Slicks at Louisville and Kentucky, but it's a sad fact that corruption rears its ugly head at our place and evidently so many others. Years ago a relative chid me for my inclinations to believe in the amateur spirit and state of college sport. No longer do I suspend my disbelief.

@Crimsonorblue22 I am not missing your point. You should be disappointed in the NCAA and college athletics if you do not like what is going on. This is a business and this is how business is conducted due to the current structure of college athletics.

So you can sit here and say you are disappointed all you want, but you are still going to support the team, love Bill, etc... so how disappointed are you really??

@KUSTEVE Wow, I thought I was up to date, but I had to look up "NPC meme".

To help others who may be as uninformed as I (surely, there must be one at least), I am providing a definition paraphrased for your usage:

"People who join the anti-KU crowd only because they’re brainwashed sheep who have been conditioned to parrot anti-KU orthodoxy, just as the computerized characters in a video game provide unthinking comments and actions."

You youngsters in your 50's!

What did we actually expect from Self? Put yourself in his shoes. Look at the expectations on the program. He absolutely has to land top prospects or else people will question his recruiting ability. He better be winning the league at least every other year, and getting to a final four every three or four years. You can't do that without top tier players. Problem is, you can't get top tier players to come to Lawrence, Kansas for free when they are getting paid to go somewhere else. So, you have to play the game if you want to keep your multi-million dollar job.

Of course I wish Self and Townsend built in a few more layers of separation. Of course I wish it wasn't us in the investigation. But to expect that we didn't have players on the take and that our coaches didn't know we had players on the take is naive. Coaches know everything that goes on in their program.

Honestly, if you have a problem with Self because of this, it's because you live in a fantasy world where you assumed for some reason that College Basketball players aren't worth more than their scholarship despite that not being the case for over 50 years. And maybe now you are finally waking up to that reality. Bill Self has plenty of integrity. You just are shocked that the recruiting "game" is played (and has been since Self was a player at Oklahoma State) outside of the rules of NCAA defined amateurism.

I hope that this ends with a "Not Guilty" verdict because that will be the downfall of the NCAA's stupid amateur rules. The Olympic model will finally have to be implemented, and we can quit pretending that NCAA Men's Basketball and Football are Amateur sports.

@Woodrow my love for Self and KT is diminished. Just the way I am, it's how I brought up my kids and it's how my parents brought me up. Think of me however you wish, it doesn't bother me.

Exactly @Kcmatt7 . You have to be extremely ignorant and naive to believe none of this was going on. It has been going on FOREVER!! You think Julian Wright just goes to KU without ever visiting. You think Darrell Arthur really just had a dream and picked KU. I mean get a clue.

@Woodrow thx!

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@Woodrow I think you are missing my point, I love KU, that's why I'm disappointed. I'd never stop watching or going to games, I watch every KU fb game. I don't care that "everybody" does it.

Serious question, would you rather KU struggle to even be .500?

Woodrow said:

@Crimsonorblue22 I am not missing your point. You should be disappointed in the NCAA and college athletics if you do not like what is going on. This is a business and this is how business is conducted due to the current structure of college athletics.

So you can sit here and say you are disappointed all you want, but you are still going to support the team, love Bill, etc... so how disappointed are you really??

Well said. I covered this earlier but the problem is systemic because players obviously have value and the fake system trotted out there isn't realistic. The market adjusted.

Exactly @BShark . The NCAA has setup the system for it to work this way. Players are still getting money and families are being taken care of but a dime does not come out of their pocket. It is just like Wetzel said in the article I posted earlier. Does the NCAA dare look into Zion and Duke? Hell no! Why? Because everyone knows who Zion is and he is going to sell the sport and the tournament this year. He is going to make them millions of more dollars. oh and Coach K is one of the greatest of his time.

Here is the deal. If you are disappointed in Self then you are saying you would rather be irrelevant in the sport, because that is the only other option.

This is a BUSINESS!

Woodrow said:

Exactly @Kcmatt7 . You have to be extremely ignorant and naive to believe none of this was going on. It has been going on FOREVER!! You think Julian Wright just goes to KU without ever visiting. You think Darrell Arthur really just had a dream and picked KU. I mean get a clue.

Sherron, the Morris twins, Cole...

I would actually struggle to think of a player at KU under Self that wasn't compensated. Which, again, I am fine with.

@BShark @Woodrow

So, if there really were any NCAA violations here, they would be running afoul of the two most basic NCAA rules there are?

1. Don't get caught.

2. Don't embarrass the NCAA.

@mayjay What exactly did KU get caught doing? That is why I do not understand why people are freaking out. Does it look bad, sure. Does everyone know finally understand what happens in the real world of major college athletics, sure. However, what exactly did KU get "caught" doing?

To anyone criticizing those of us who would be disappointed if Self or KU participated in illegal recruiting:

Basketball is entertainment. I have spoken before how excited I am to watch KU basketball, but also how I have fun watching players develop both on and off the court. Finding out bad things about KU or the players undermines my enjoyment.

Yes, it involves blinders, and fantasy, but I see no harm in that. Let me analogize: I know the action movies I watch involve CGI and fake blood, and that the good guy characters probably would do some bad things if we saw their lives over 24 hours, and that few movies ever show anyone taking a dump. Fantasy allows ignoring the gritty realities of life.

Basketball is fantasy. My choice, my disappointment when it implodes!

@mayjay

Well said

@Woodrow I said "if". Since everyone is saying all schools do it, this whole topic should be irrelevant except for if KU were to be caught.

@BeddieKU23 Thank you. There do seem to be a few who are almost gleeful in feeling their cynicism has been ratified. I think they were the 4th graders who kept telling kindergartners there is no Santa.

@mayjay NO SANTA ???????????

You've gone too far now.

I wouldn't say I am gleeful, but it was the worst kept secret.

In one of the threads on the Phog about it so far 65 schools have been remembered as having been caught to some degree or had a player caught over the last 15 years. So when people say everyone does it, that is pretty much the case. I mean, those are just the schools that had something caught.

Kcmatt7 Sep 28, 2017, 9:01 AM
@BShark I did find that Townsend was lead on Selby. And Wiggins. And Jackson. And Ayton. If we have a coach who is a problem, it is him.

/topic/6304

I don't want to rub it in anyone's face. This sucks. Just don't get mad at those who weren't wearing ear plugs and crimson and blue glasses when we were talking about this, rationally, over a year ago. And now what we speculated is being confirmed.

If you want to continue living in a fantasy world, nobody is stopping you. Mute the TV and don't read about the FBI investigation. But being disappointed in anyone on the staff is something you did to yourself.

I would have to say that @Crimsonorblue22 has expressed my sentiments a bit more succinctly than I was able to do. She said, "@Woodrow my love for Self and KT is diminished. Just the way I am, it’s how I brought up my kids and it’s how my parents brought me up. Think of me however you wish, it doesn’t bother me." Perfect.

When my faith is broken, it's greatly disappointing to me.

It's just how I view things.

@Kcmatt7 To be very clear, I can tell you exactly what I expected of Bill Self -- not to engage in a conspiracy to pay players. I have read for years how many, many folks here (and elsewhere) expressed that there was no way Bill Self would be tied up in something like this. This has been the overwhelming -- nearly 100% -- sentiment. In fact, I can't think of one time on this site (among the regulars) that anyone has said that Bill Self was engaged in this stuff. He had too much integrity. After all, he wasn't Calipari. I was one who felt confident he wasn't involved in anything like this. I am hopeful that you're not suggesting that Townsend just did whatever he was doing totally without the knowledge of Bill Self -- you're not saying that, are you?

It is obvious that some now want to turn this into a , "So what, everyone else does it" thing. Or a, "That's how the game is played" thing.

If there's anything that disgusts me, it's the looter's mentality. Everyone else is doing it, so I can be morally bankrupt.

But again, I think my feeling is more of just disappointment. I'm not angry at our staff. I get it. It's just not the same now.

@mayjay You made quite a statement, as follows: "There do seem to be a few who are almost gleeful in feeling their cynicism has been ratified. I think they were the 4th graders who kept telling kindergartners there is no Santa."

Can you please identify anyone happy or gleeful with all of this?

Kcmatt7 said:

Kcmatt7 Sep 28, 2017, 9:01 AM
@BShark I did find that Townsend was lead on Selby. And Wiggins. And Jackson. And Ayton. If we have a coach who is a problem, it is him.

/topic/6304

I don't want to rub it in anyone's face. This sucks. Just don't get mad at those who weren't wearing ear plugs and crimson and blue glasses when we were talking about this, rationally, over a year ago. And now what we speculated is being confirmed.

If you want to continue living in a fantasy world, nobody is stopping you. Mute the TV and don't read about the FBI investigation. But being disappointed in anyone on the staff is something you did to yourself.

This. This. This.

Remember when this first came out and KU wasn't initially listed or involved in anything? Tons of national writers all said that other coaches were saying "when is Kansas going to be dragged into this". Clearly it was pretty known of how KU operated. Not that it is any different than anyone else, but this was a Adidas thing and we are the biggest fish in the water.

I remember two summers ago I was playing golf with a big time donor and we were talking about recruiting and MPJ and Trae Young. I asked him if KU really had a legit shot at them and he said no. "There is no way Nike is not going to let them go to a Nike school". He was told that by someone on the staff.

@HighEliteMajor Maybe the "I need to cheat to be competitive in recruiting" rationalization feels to those people more like looting bread to survive after a hurricane rather than looting jewelry or TVs to take advantage of chaos or no LE. I don't agree but I think that is what it is.

I do have a question for you that goes back to our discussion about which school's record would we want, KU or UConn. Would you be satisfied with a squeaky clean program that never wins a title if it is true that other blueblood programs are not clean? Or is turning a blind eye something us idealists have to be willing to do to compete in recruiting? I am torn here. I cannot say I am happy following KU football, but is that a price that might have to be paid were a coach to guarantee perfect compliance as the highest priority?

On my "gleeful" comment: I think it stands for itself. It wasn't directed at you. An analogy would be similar reactions from fans who "know" their team is going to blow a lead in the 4th quarter and instead of being disappointed like the rest seem smug when their negative expectations are realized.

@nuleafjhawk It's okay, Virginia. Santa, Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny do exist, and their name is Big Shoe.

mayjay said:

@BeddieKU23 Thank you. There do seem to be a few who are almost gleeful in feeling their cynicism has been ratified. I think they were the 4th graders who kept telling kindergartners there is no Santa.

Knowing how this game works, and not burying my head in the sand makes me gleeful? Sure OK if that makes you feel better.

@HighEliteMajor Well before this trial, I've said that KU has creatively paid players. When it's a topic of course, and it frequently wasn't. But I have brought up Sherron, Julian etc... before the trial. I was often met with scorn but the reactions here were mostly pretty tame from what I remember, compared to other KU boards.

@Woodrow Makes sense with MPJ and Trae. Good info, thanks.

@HighEliteMajor I have absolutely said that I though Bill Self knew he was getting paid players. I expected more degrees of separation, but I absolutely thought he knew about every single player that got paid.

It's really only "morally bankrupt" if you think breaking arbitrary rules, set by a multi-billion dollar non-profit, that exploits athletes, are moral in the first place.

I am not gleeful that KU is caught up in this at all.

I sort of am gleeful that this might change amateur basketball to a system that actually works for the players.

Someone on the Phog actually put it quite well. I know some here don't check there, so I am going to copypaste it. I would generally agree with all of this.

"Take the Zion conversation. There are three parts to that. The occupation part. Well, that's on KU's staff and boosters. We've been doing that for years (Angel Morris immediately comes to mind). The same Lawrence townie takes care of the housing too. That's an open secret and not news---I'm sure there's a paper trail of an application, interview, etc. If it's news to you, you just haven't been paying attention.

It's the paying them cash thing that's really the issue here. I would be shocked if there's a single bit of evidence of KU staff member talking logistics or amounts of cash, from an apparel company or any other source. In fact, I'm confident there's not because if there was, the FBI would have indicted that coach too. Do they know it happens? Sure, again, in a general sense. Do they have a specific knowledge of how much or when or even who? No. And, if they do come across that knowledge (i.e. Preston), they bite the bullet and sit the player.

Some people may say that's all dirty and they should be fired. And maybe it is. But I'm totally okay with that level of cleanliness. I haven't seen anything yet to lead me to believe it's any different. So, while I would prefer that this stuff had never seen the light of day, it doesn't really change my opinion about the whole ordeal...yet."

@Kcmatt7 You said, "It’s really only “morally bankrupt” if you think breaking arbitrary rules, set by a multi-billion dollar non-profit, that exploits athletes, are moral in the first place."

I cannot imagine a worse response. Perhaps I'll break into your car, steal your phone, because the laws were made by folks that exploit the common man and are unfair to those that don't have phones.

And, of course, you ignore the entire concept that all participating in NCAA basketball are doing so by choice, with the current rules. We've done this dance before. That irrefutable. What you describe is your feelings or opinion, which is fine -- how you feel about rules and laws is nice. But it doesn't change the fact that they are the rules and law. And you're advocating ignoring them because of how you feel.

Or worse, justifying the blatant violations by our head coach.

And in particular, we're talking about the man with more money than anyone else involved, who is the one at the tip of spear of your complaints. He would have to be the lead "exploiter of athletes." No one profits more personally than Bill Self.

@mayjay My "looting" reference was not of the stealing to survive mentality. But to your point, I can't buy the logic (and I know you're just pointing out how some may view it as a discussion item -- and I think you may be right on how they view it. But I think it is the wrong view namely because it really isn't about survival).

Really, and I'd ask everyone to think about this -- does anyone think that Bill Self gets the money he gets from Kansas without a big shoe deal? Bill Self is paid by Adidas -- not directly like some coaches -- but he is paid.

What if Bill Self was a truly moral man that just blew the whistle? Exposed the system. Declared "we're not paying." Declared that KU is dead clean, play for the best program in the country.

And this isn't where Self wouldn't have a job if he stopped participating in this stuff. He would. And he'd still make millions. Just not as much, and perhaps not as successfully. No FF without DeSousa last season, I think we can agree.

He made the choice not to survive (as @mayjay alluded to as being a possible thought process), but to thrive (and to win it all). That is much different.

@HighEliteMajor The NCAA doesn't even actually care when schools break the "rules", as long as it's done in the dark. They have shown this repeatedly with their actions. Duke has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar more than once, and approximately nothing happened each time. At the end of the day, they are going to protect their money makers.

The sham of "amateur athletics" and "non-profit" is only there to trick people. I'd say it doesn't work, but you seem to subscribe to it based on your words here. You are right we have had these conversations before. Would you still try to argue that these players don't have value beyond a scholarship?

Also nothing to do with paying players is illegal. It has nothing to do with the law. It's just against NCAA rules, which, again are not really enforced to begin with.

I would agree with you that Self is paid by Adidas. So obviously, Adidas is going to want to get good players sent his way so that he can continue winning, which sells Adidas apparel.

In your theoretical situation, Self doesn't get enough good players to compete, imo. I think you might be surprised that all KU players are paid. It's not just players like Wiggins, Josh, Diallo, Selby, Cliff, Silvio etc... It's Frank, Devonte, Perry, Cole, TRob, Releford, Reed, Taylor etc... Basically any player that has been on scholarship at KU in the last 30+ years. Roy and Larry weren't clean either. Hell, Wilt didn't turn down pro money to play in Lawrence for free. It's been pay for play for a long time. Maybe not as widespread, and the shoecos are relatively new (90s) but the money has always been there for those that want it.

An interesting question would be, what IF the money wasn't there? I think you would actually see these kids take a year in Europe, Australia etc... but since the money is there they prefer staying in the country.

@BShark Regarding the comment about paying players not being illegal .. I agree with you. In fact, I was very clear on my opinion of that when the entire FBI deal started. I didn't think it amounted to "fraud."

However, as we've seen, the prosecutor thinks it is illegal because it defrauds the university. Buying that logic, Self, KT, and the players are co-conspirators. With Self and KT, no different than if an office manager stole from her company. And actually, in my mind, that has better logic than a criminal case against an employee of a separate organization (Adidas) competing in the marketplace.

I do like your comment -- "the sham of 'amateur athletics' and 'non-profit' is only there to trick people."

I guess I do feel that I generally understand the business model and the entire dynamic with the NCAA, and what it's about. Lots of discussion on that. But I guess I felt that it was not necessary to pay players (if it is/was, then that indicates a lack of understanding on my part, to be sure). I thought, of course, that certain programs did it. But that we didn't, that we didn't have to, and that it wasn't widespread. In large part because we never hear of a 30 year old former player saying, "yeah, I got $30k from UK." The silence indicated something to me.

I just don't (yet) buy your narrative where you suggest the payments to all these players. But I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm rethinking my thoughts on all of this.

I don't think the defense will be convicted fwiw. I think they created much more than reasonable doubt. I'm not sure how a jury could come back with a guilty verdict but we will see.

@HighEliteMajor Lately some high profile guys like Shaq, Jay Williams etc.. have come out and said they were paid. Maybe they didn't want to before so that the school wouldn't be punished but with everything out there now, they felt like saying it. I don't know their thought process, of course.

A lot of the ways where schools de facto pay players are not only legal but are fine via NCAA rules as well. Setting up jobs for the parents of players isn't particularly against the rules. Ultimately those parents are still doing the work that the job requires, one would assume. The housing deals might be a bit more gray, I'm certainly not an expert on NCAA bylaws.

HighEliteMajor said:

I guess I do feel that I generally understand the business model and the entire dynamic with the NCAA, and what it's about. Lots of discussion on that. But I guess I felt that it was not necessary to pay players (if it is/was, then that indicates a lack of understanding on my part, to be sure). I thought, of course, that certain programs did it. But that we didn't, that we didn't have to, and that it wasn't widespread.

This. Continue down this train of thought.

It IS widespread.

So far in the FBI investigation we have now had mentions of players getting some sort of improper benefit or noted as offering one:
- Duke
- KU
- UK
- UNC
- NC State
- Texas
- Oregon
- Arizona
- Creighton
- DePaul
- Iowa State
- Alabma
- Clemson
- Seton Hall
- Utah
- Villanova
- Virginia
- Washington
- Wichita State
- Xavier
- Louisville
- LSU
- Maryland
- Notre Dame
- Michigan State
- Oregon
- Miami
- Oklahoma State

Thats almost 25% of major conference teams right there. I could name other players that ended up strange places.

• Caleb Swanigan to Purdue
• Jaylen Brown to Cal
• Derrick Rose/Austen Nichols to Memphis
• Mustafa Heron to Auburn
• Jaylen Fisher to TCU
• Thomas Bryant to Indiana
• Kevin Looney to UCLA
• Deangelo Russel to Ohio State
• Rashaud Vaughn to UNLV
• Jujaun Johnson to Marquette
• Isaiah Austin to Baylor
• Steven Adams to Pitt
• Winston Shepard to SDSU
• Bradley Beal to Florida
• Shittu to Vanderbilt
• Nickeal Alexander-Walker to Virginia Tech
• Chaundee Brown to Wake Forest
• Blake Harris to Missouri
• Like every player to UConn under Ollie
• Michael Beasley to KSU

And I'm not saying all of those guys got paid. But a lot of their recruitments were... lets just say suspect. That doesn't include players staying home who were suspect. Imagine how easy it would be to land a top 100 in-state kid by calling up a booster and that booster hiring their parent to a cushy job. So much of it goes under the radar that there isn't even a paper trail.

I shouldn't be commenting on here since I really have no clue what's going on - I rarely read the news. If the scoop is that Bill Self is/was doing something illegal, immoral or Calipari-ish then yes, i am greatly disappointed. I REALLY thought he was above board.

If he is guilty of some impropriety, what does that mean for KU? Is there an honest coach out there anywhere? Does anyone care if there's an honest coach out there?

I'm not condoning ANYONE cheating in any way shape or form. The only one I know to turn to for answers in a difficult situation once said this:

“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” (NKJV - words are in red - you know the author)

The top programs in all of college sports have been aided and abetted this way for decades by whomever has an interest, from boosters to shoe companies. Self knows he is in this top tier arena, so he, like all the other coaches, essentially has to play by the “rules” to stay a top tier program. Adidas is in stiff competition with Nike, and the understanding is that they will find a way to deliver guys to their flagship schools like KU, while KU (like everybody else) looks the other way. Why did Preston’s mom freak out about Self and KU finding out?? Because she knew that would violate how the game is played, and her son would never play a minute -which is what happened.

There may be other schools and coaches where a family member could care less about knowledge of payments because they know the key people (coaches and assistants) are in on the payments. Not KU. KU is is DEFINITELY NOT “supposed” to know. But they do know... that’s how the rules of the recruitment game are.

schools can offer jobs and a variety of other permissible perks as listed by many on this thread, to steer players their way, and they tacitly let the shoe cos do the dirty work of direct cash payments.

Unless there is direct EVIDENCE, NOT Just innuendo and reading into contextual meaning, that links our program to illegal payments, we will be fine, Self will be fine, and we should all go back to rooting for our team.

When I was about 6, my brother told me how babies were made, that there was no Easter bunny or Santa Claus, and that Peter Pan was just a kid on a wire. I grew up, and still enjoy the holidays as well as other things, including basketball.

@Kcmatt7 And McDermott to Creighton, too! Pretty sure the coach had all types of extra contact, and gave extra food and stuff to that guy for years.

@mayjay LMAO.

To the guys who are surprised about some of this.

How did you feel about the following:

• Self hiring Townsend who was on staff at California when they cheated like crazy to the point Boezman was banned from coaching in NCAA for 8 years.

• Mario Chalmers dad getting a staff job.

• Angel Morris having a job and being relocated to Lawrence.

• Tyshawn's entire family moved to Lawrence.

• Numerous other parents who come from impoverished backgrounds yet somehow have the ability to up and move and secure jobs and living quarters.

• Julian Wright committing without ever visiting campus

• Darnell Jackson getting paid

• B Rush getting paid before coming back

• Selby driving a Mercedes - thought to be Adidas money

@Bosthawk The Peter Pan thing always screwed me up. First, Mary Martin, then Sandy Dennis. It wasn't until I was an adult that I realized that the character was a boy that for some reason was portrayed on stage by women in their 20's and 30's. Shades of Shakespeare.

When Wiggins did his campus visit I saw his mom in a Lawrence liquor store, and she bought a 6-pack of Michelob Ultra. She paid cash. WHERE'D SHE GET THE CASH?

@DanR Did the $10 bill have a picture of a shoe in the center? Adidas cash fuels 19.6% of the Lawrence economy, according to the Brookings Institution. And she no doubt got a Dollar Bill in change.

@mayjay It was crisp and non sequential. That's what made me suspicious. Plus, who ever has a ten dollar bill? That's weird right there. Singles and 20s are what everyone has.

@DanR His mother being Canadian, this sounds like a Loonie story to me.

@mayjay I'm especially suspicious of any Canadian who drinks Michelob Ultra.

@DanR Should be Molson.

@approxinfinity One of the reasons Chalmers came to KU was because his dad was hired onto the staff, right? Or is that the other way around? I never thought anything about that before. But, now I have to look at it a little differently.

@Lulufulu yes. Just like MPJ last year at Mizzou, Danny Manning and his dad, and many more.

Yeah, having Ronnie Chalmers be the DBO was part of getting Mario. WORTH IT btw.

@Woodrow There was a little difference for Ed Manning. Brown had previously coached Ed in the ABA where he played for 10 years. Furthermore, Brown hired him as an assistant coach for his initial KU staff, not a job any new coach would waste on hoping to get a player a year away. Finally, Brown took him to the NBA after Danny graduated and Ed kept working for San Antonio as a scout, I believe, after Brown left. So his hiring was more legit than some of the others usually listed, even if the UNC fans will never believe it.

Correction (edit): Danny announced his decision to go to KU in the fall of 1983 his senior year. According to the NYT, it was only 3 weeks after Ed was hired. So the timing wasn't good. (Ed actually replaced Jo Jo White on the staff.)

Reminder, the hiring of Ed Manning and Ronnie Chalmers was not prohibited by NCAA rules.

@HighEliteMajor And Ed's would still be allowed because any parent hired has to fill an assistant coach position.

HighEliteMajor said:

Reminder, the hiring of Ed Manning and Ronnie Chalmers was not prohibited by NCAA rules.

Lots of stuff KU does isn't.

Hell I wish KU would do more stuff like that instead of going after high risk targets like Preston. If Preston/his mom never take the shoe money and instead KU sets up Nicole with a job somewhere, then Billy plays and there is no issue.

@BShark She seems like someone who would have not been willing to work for the money if she could cash in on Billy. That gave her more time to rehearse her indignant-Mom act.

@BShark So you want our coach to willingly and purposefully violate NCAA rules?

@mayjay Maybe she’d prefer to make $14 .. the hard way.

https://m. ↗

@HighEliteMajor wrong sex

mayjay said:

@DanR His mother being Canadian, this sounds like a Loonie story to me.

I see what you did there. 🤣🤣

Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he's playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I'm just mad we got caught.

SkinnyKansasDude said:

Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he's playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I'm just mad we got caught.

You must be from Kentucky or KSU. Are the sheep still huddling on the other side of the barn?

@HighEliteMajor That's not what I said. We were talking about something legal, setting up a parent with a job.

@SkinnyKansasDude - You said, "Someone of unquestionable integrity who has been rumored to have been cheating on his wife since he set foot in Kansas and probably long before that. This attitude of putting Coach on a pedestal is unrealistic and tiring. Bill Self is a genius but he’s playing the game that every coach in America is playing. Am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? No. I’m just mad we got caught."

Initially, I wonder how the Bill Self is God crowd (now with the focus on his character) will reply, related to your comment. I had always used the "Bill Self is God" phrase related to his basketball decision making -- how many simply felt his decision-making is/was beyond even discussion. Always gives me a chuckle thinking back on the irrational hysterics.

You make a very good point. If he's cheating on his wife, he'll cheat elsewhere. I should have been smarter.

Look, he's off the pedestal in my eyes now. That ship has sailed. I was naïve and stupid.

And no, Bill Self is not a "genius." He's a basketball genius.

But your last statement, "I'm just mad we got caught", is your opinion. I understand. I personally think that this sort of mentality is disgusting. It's disgusting to me on many levels. I can't imagine a day when character and integrity are not important to me.

@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she's paid $120,000 per year. That's not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.

I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?

Aren't we all guilty?

We all have come to realize that college sports has an architecture that supports payoffs and other dirty play. We've all either slammed people like Calipari (or read the slams and laughed). Yet we allowed ourselves to buy into the fairytale that Kansas is different. Kansas and Self were just so superior we could win over top recruits with our finesse versus other schools and entities offering money to kids and their families who have very little.

I haven't read anything here that is shocking to me. I don't like it. But I try to not think about it and I focus on young athletes out there playing with their hearts.

I do have to admit that I am disappointed in Self and Company for ever having direct contact with any of these shoe people. Just how much of this communication was even necessary? How did they think these communications would be seen as harmless by the public (and maybe the NCAA). Why gamble that?

I'm pretty sure most of the payoffs in college sports has gone undetected by the public and media.

This all reminds me of the issue with marijuana. Look at our society change now and suddenly it's no big deal to be a user because of the news that so many people are users... probably even Sanjay Gupta. This should be the moment in college sports where it is addressed that most athletic programs (if not all) tolerate behavior around them that lets things happen, including prized athletes receiving subsidized educations for their sports efforts!

HighEliteMajor said:

@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she's paid $120,000 per year. That's not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.

I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?

If the job doesn't grossly overpay for the work being done, then it's fine.

But like @mayjay said I don't think she was interested in working. :joy:

@BShark not sure a bank would hire her?

It is disappointing... Dammit. It just is. Even though I could probably say I've had the assumption everything isn't above board for years... There have been some things that one could argue made it look as though "above board" was at least the goal of the staff. The sitting of Cliff, Selby, DJ, Preston. Idk...

Where do we go from here? Who knows. I don't think the university is firing a hall of fame coach no matter the outcome here minus an indictment perhaps. Can't say I'd even want that outcome. Although, I must say if we have been buying recruits all along we really haven't been getting out money's worth with 1 NC to show for that... Hope that's not the case. But is that just as naive as believing it doesn't in fact go on everywhere? Including here apparently...

Integrity is not a tricky business. People just like to make it gray to justify their own actions. It's that simple. For instance, and I've said this for years, nobody comes home after the game and talks about how the refs jobbed the other team. Right? No. Fans just come home happy they won and don't care why. Now if you're team gets jobbed by the refs and they lose then it's all that's talked about by fans. In the same manner that if this was UK/calipari most KU fans as well as the rest of the country would be allover it like white on rice. That slimeball!!! I knew it all along!!! Yada yada and yada....

But now we have fans that want to change that tone to..... "Well, there's really not a dollar amount discussed". "There's really not a smoking gun". "Our coaches really didn't know". "As long as we don't get caught". "As long as we don't get in trouble". "Everyone's doing it, it's been going on for decades".

Ask yourself these questions. Is it okay with you if Duke and UK cheat and go the FF and win NC's because of it?

Is it okay with you if your kid illegally(yes for now illegally) smokes pot cause other kids are doing it?

Is it okay with you if your kid cheats on academics but maintains a 4.0 gpa and is successful? Maybe cause other kids get away with it?

Turning a blind eye, pretending it doesn't happen, or doesn't matter... SMH....

You really wanna teach your kids that? You really want the university and the program we all love to teach the students and student athletes that? That it's not only okay but it's supported by many, to start out their adult life learning how to bend and break the rules?

That's the message you want to send?

Integrity is not a tricky business. Not a slippery slope. Not a gray area.

@HighEliteMajor applaud you for bringing up the tough topic. The one none of us really wanted to face. Well done sir.

With all the big boys paying (including Nova) only one team a year gets their moneys worth by that definition. The alternative though is probably not even making the tournament.

I wouldn't compare this to things that are actually illegal. Then again I don't think this is bad. Personally, I wouldn't even call it gray. The kids are paid, and then make more money for the school and shoecos. It's business. It's only bad if you think these kids should be exploited, and work for free.

@BShark no. That's incorrect. I'm sorry. But it is. This is a totally separate issue. Youre talking about your opinion of how things should be. Not how they are. As of right now. It's breaking the rules. Not gray. It's black and white.

So basically you're saying that if your kid gets busted for smoking pot in Kansas, it's okay because it should be legal.... And probably will be someday. That's gonna be your defense? Think that works out well in court? Doubt it.

We all have to live by the laws and rules as they are today. Not how they should be in some people's minds.

@BShark so about cliff, did we pay for him? I thought his mom sold her soul? Funny how most of these parents that did these illegal payments have ruined their kids lifes. I thought diallo's problems were academic?

@cragarhawk Well actually it is different. Parents and or kids are not going to go to jail for taking money. This has been going on since the 60's and probably before and to my knowledge not one parent and kid has gone to jail. So yea it is different.

@Crimsonorblue22 Yes it was Cliff's Mom who took a loan. I agree that it sucks that there are parents out there basically pimping their sons, but that's what the NCAA has created.

Yesterday in court it was said the Brian Bowen Sr. took 7 different payments from AAU teams and shoe / schools. He was getting paid for his kid to play on AAU team!! That blew my mind.

@Crimsonorblue22 I don't think KU directly paid anyone in regards to Cliff. But it wouldn't shock me if they took shoe money, and I guess blew through it too, since his mom took out that loan.

Diallo's handler probably took shoeco money.

@Woodrow it is against the rules. Is it not? Nobody has to go to jail for it in order for it to be against the rules. Whether you believe it's right or wrong.

Rule states no. Therefore consequences do happen. It doesn't have to be jail... Your kid probably isn't going to jail for cheating on a algebra final either. But you think there aren't consequences? The point is that you don't get to use the defense in either case that "everyone's doing it" "the NCAA or society created it" , or "it should be legal or not against the rules anyway"

You wouldn't use that defense for Coach K or Calipari, or Roy, or Sean Miller or anyone else.

@cragarhawk What consequences have happened? Nothing has happened and I fully expect nothing to happen to KU from this. SDS might become ineligible, but this won't be the first time a KU players has had to sit out. It happens every year across the NCAA.

Also, you have no idea how or what I would say if another coach or another school was "caught". Those guys you listed do the same shit and play the same game. If that is not something you can grasp then that's on you.

If the FBI didn't think they had enough on KT to put him on trial, the NCAA won't do crap.

@cragarhawk You don't think NCAA hasn't known about this type of stuff for years? Of course they have but they look the other way. Why? Because the players are getting paid ( which most people believe they should) and ZERO dollars are coming out of there pockets. It is really not that hard to grasp. This is a billion dollar business not some Algebra final.

Woodrow said:

Why? Because the players are getting paid ( which most people believe they should) and ZERO dollars are coming out of there pockets. It is really not that hard to grasp. This is a billion dollar business not some Algebra final.

This is it. They make millions for free. That's why the "rules" are a joke. They know these kids have to be paid somehow and they don't want to do it.

HighEliteMajor said:

@BShark Ok, if KU gets Ms. Preston a job with a local bank, and she's paid $120,000 per year. That's not a violation? Of course, extreme example. But extremes demonstrate the point sometimes.

I am assuming that KU setting a parent up with a job, with a third party, would be a violation of NCAA rules. Do you have info to the contrary?

To the extent you mentioned and if she was wholly unqualified it would or shopuld be a violation since it is clearly a bribe. However, handing her a newspaper with the help wanted adds or giving her a list of jobs that include cashier at HyVee or Return Desk at Home depot or order taker at McDonald's or any other jobs that meet her qualification would certainly not be. In fact, most companies that relocate employees...as an example...will help the family at the new location with jobs for other members, schooling and so on and the school should be able to help families that relocate to watch their kids play. Granted that giving them free apartment or jobs for which they are not qualified would be a clear violation. Remember Reggie Bush? The school wsa heavily penalized for doing just this so it is obvious impermissible.

BTW, to those who mentioned Ronnie Chalmers, he was very well qualified for the position. He has a Bachelor degree in Business Administration, a Master's in human Resource Management and Development, managed Air Force teams and Summer Leagues for many years and was a HS coach for 5 years winning 2 state titles...a good fit for the position he was hired. He was hired after Mario moved to Lawrence, Ronnie retired and decided to move to Lawrence to watch him play...at least this was the offcial story but one that is defensible.

@Woodrow you're right. I apologise. I have no idea what you would say if it was another school or coach. Perhaps you would be in the minority of ppl nationwide that would say the same regardless of whether or not it affected your school/team.

Again, whether or not players should be paid, whether or not it goes on other places, whether or not the NCAA is w multibillion dollar evil organization that exploits student athletes, is not what's in question here.

If it's a rule and you break it. There are consequences. If you know it's wrong. And you do it anyway. And then make excuses for it, that's a lack of integrity. Which is at the heart of my post. Nobody gets to choose whether they follow the rules based on their opinion of said rules.

Follow the rules. Or if you don't. Which everyone at some point in their life has broken some law or rule, don't make excuses about it. Don't try to make it to be okay. Just own up and accept it. Congratulations. You're human. As all the rest.

Maybe there won't be consequences and maybe there will... Banners coming down, wins being vacated, suspensions, post season bans.. could happen and has happened in the past.

We now live in a world where it wouldn't surprise me at all if there are no consequences. And quite frankly that's part of the problem. Not part of the solution.

@cragarhawk Very well said.

@Woodrow - I think @cragarhawk's point is that when we talk about other coaches and programs, we (collectively) have thrown significant mud. When it's turned on us, then some become hypocrites.

So, if you learned that Calipari gave 1% of his salary each year in cash to each scholarship player, I'd assume then you're ok with that?

And no, most people don't believe the players should be paid. That's a completely unsupported statement. A large majority of folks I've discussed the topic with believe the value of the college education in dollars is sufficient compensation. And when you discuss all of the issues involved - choice, contracts, private entities, who owns the product, who owns the facilities, etc., - the narrative changes. When folks consider the facts, and how business works, then opinions change. If they simply don't like bosses, owners, companies, etc., which many don't, you aren't changing those opinions. They live in a world of entitlement.

it is a billion dollar business. Of course it is. So what? That doesn't entitle the non-owners to anything. That's the concept that you and others just ignore.

@BShark "They make millions for free." Who? Oh, you mean the owners? The ones that own the stadiums, own the other facilities, own the product, negotiate the contracts, and make the offers to players that are accepted (meaning the contracts)? I know, it's unfair. Workers of the world, unite.

The rules are a joke to you. The rules are joke to you because they permit the owners to make money you want redistributed. The players are entitled to nothing. Zero. And they don't have to participate. But that creates difficulty in the narrative.

The kids don't have to be paid. They just don't. That's an opinion, not fact. There is no support for that statement, factually. It's like saying you have to legalize something because there is a black market for whatever is sold illegally.

On the other hand, the NCAA (which is really the member schools) have to decide on their business model. If it better to pay players, that's the call they have to make. If it's better to strengthen the rules, and enforcement, resulting in many top players doing something else, then do that (which I'm all for -- because I think the product will not suffer). I don't need to see Andrew Wiggins in CBB.

That all said, it's why the FBI prosecution is a joke to me. We're talking about internal rules set up to aid a business venture (NCAA). And a private company (Adidas) acting in their best interests to aid their profit margin paid players. So what?

Woodrow said:

Yesterday in court it was said the Brian Bowen Sr. took 7 different payments from AAU teams and shoe / schools. He was getting paid for his kid to play on AAU team!! That blew my mind.

Bowen Sr is just one of many in that boat

@HighEliteMajor Well, the schools/NCAA wouldn't make a dime without the players so there is that. I'm talking about college only. Pro players have their unions and negotiate their contracts. I don't feel bad for them at all, they are well compensated.

And yes I would be fine with Cal giving 1% of his salary to each scholarship player.

The NCAA is the colleges. Like you said this is why the whole thing is a joke. Secretly they are fine with paying the players imo, they just want it done in the dark. That's why they play pretend, never crack down on the money makers while wagging their finger when Nowhere State visibly breaks a rule.

I did enjoy wiggs! Zero problems! I also loved Ben Mac! A lot of the guys or moms doing illegal stuff are ruining their sons lives. I know cliff is probably not going to make it and billy didn't do well in Bosnia? And is playing G league. Probably not his hopes and dreams. They both needed guidance and college time. They could've made it. A little cash for a short amount of time, wasted!

@Crimsonorblue22 Players will develop just as well or better in the G-League imo. Basketball 24/7, instead of pretending to go to class and having limits on practice time to improve their craft. Basically every other league in other countries have youth development programs. Sign the kids on at 13-14 and develop them. Works great for football (or soccer if you prefer) and MLS has actually started doing this as well. Sporting KC have a 16 year old that made it into the game last night. This is where the NBA wants to get to, based on rumors.

@BShark how long can you stay in G league?

Obviously that would basically be the end of college basketball as we know it and for greedy personal reasons I don't want it to happen. But it seems inevitable.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark how long can you stay in G league?

I don't know. Probably a long time. But the salaries aren't great so at a certain point the player would want to consider going to one of the better clubs in Europe and making more money. Lots of the 4 year guys under Self have had good, long careers in Europe.

Edit: In fact the money in college ball is probably better than playing in the G League for the elite guys unless they can get a shoe contract.

@cragarhawk Have you ever jaywalked?

Ever gone over the speed limit?

Have you ever drank underage?

Have you ever let your kids run an illegal lemonade stand without a license?

Have you ever put $20 on a game with your friend and won, not paid the income tax on that?

Have you ever cut someone's grass for cash and not claimed it on income tax?

Have you ever played a poker game with your buddies for cash?

Those are all laws that people choose not to follow daily. Cops don't even write tickets for pot anymore in Lawrence. You could smoke a J right in front of a LPD officer and they'd just laugh and tell you to go do it somewhere else.

People break laws all the time that they don't believe in. And I'd guess, including you. This high horse thing you are doing is absolute crap and hypocritical unless you are Jesus himself.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

not sure a bank would hire her?

Wells Fargo might.

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

Changes are coming.

This article states that the G league is going to offer 125,000$ contracts and target what would be 1 and done kids. Beginning summer of 2019.

Kcmatt7 said:

@cragarhawk Have you ever jaywalked?

Ever gone over the speed limit?

Have you ever drank underage?

Have you ever let your kids run an illegal lemonade stand without a license?

Have you ever put $20 on a game with your friend and won, not paid the income tax on that?

Have you ever cut someone's grass for cash and not claimed it on income tax?

Have you ever played a poker game with your buddies for cash?

Those are all laws that people choose not to follow daily. Cops don't even write tickets for pot anymore in Lawrence. You could smoke a J right in front of a LPD officer and they'd just laugh and tell you to go do it somewhere else.

People break laws all the time that they don't believe in. And I'd guess, including you. This high horse thing you are doing is absolute crap and hypocritical unless you are Jesus himself.

Yeah, technically you are supposed to claim garage/yard sale money as well as eBay sales on your taxes. 99% of people don't.

From my memory of the Cliff Alexander recruitment Self was accused by other schools (fans) etc for how he was able to secure his commitment. The term Dollar Bill has been a popular one over the years

Woodrow said:

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

Changes are coming.

This article states that the G league is going to offer 125,000$ contracts and target what would be 1 and done kids. Beginning summer of 2019.

Right on cue! I hadn't even seen this tweet when I made my post.

125k is a game changer. Everyone might be recruiting the 50-100 ranked kids if that goes through

Yes it was obvious the NBA wants this. What the players dont get is that the reason the NBA wants it is they will get a much fuller evaluation of their abilities. They will see them actually play against guys their equal. No more skipping the playing part of the combine. This replaces that. Which means a ton of them will be drafted lower. NBA draft will become just like MLB draft. Nobody will care anymore.

@BShark Yard sale money, and online auctions of items, are not taxable unless you sell things for more than you paid for them. If you start an eBay business, usual rules apply.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/tax-tips-for-online-auction-sellers ↗

@Kcmatt7 I did say Human. As all the rest. Which would be including me. I'm not on any high horse. Not even close. Doesn't mean I believe there shouldn't be consequences or they should change rules or laws based on my actions nor anyone else's.

Nobody was using these excuses prior to the truth coming out. But now suddenly they are acceptable. That is the point. And you know what. Kudos to you if you've never ever muttered a negative word about another coach or program that got caught or had allegations. I can't say that. I have said plenty about other coaches I thought were slimy based on similar things to that of what is now coming out about our program. And I could choose to make excuses. Or I can choose to say ya know what. It's just as slimy here as it is anywhere else.

I absolutely have done many of the things you listed. Doesn't mean I was right.

In fact. I have gone over the speed limit. In a group with probably 10 other vehicles doing the same thing. And been pulled over and ticketed while others weren't. I paid the ticket. And moved on. Knowing I had done wrong. I guess instead I should have went to the judge with "hey others were doing it and they didn't get a ticket" I'm sure then the state of Oklahoma wouldn't have $188 of my money huh. And then they would change the law to say well... It shouldn't be illegal in this guy's opinion so it's not anymore. Speed away...

High horse? Hell, I bet I've even used an aerosol can in a manner other than directed...😁

@Kcmatt7 The moral equivalency crap is an historically weak argument, one that is used by the worst of society to justify all conduct. I hope you understand the company that is kept with that argument. So, under your logic, you'd associate jaywalking with murder? See, that's how easy your argument fails?

With that, no one is saying an NCAA rules violation is murder. But the prosecution suggests it is a felony. A felony isn't jaywalking.

But the NCAA rules and violating them, isn't a felony (standing alone, outside of the "defrauding" argument).

However, we are talking about a coach entrusted to steward and protect our program and the history of KU basketball. A coach contractually required to follow NCAA rules,. A coach that knows the rules. A coach that knows the repercussions of violations. This is even more important to me than whether something amounts to a crime -- he has breached the trust of KU alumni.

Now, those of you who don't care, you don't care. You never will. And I'm sure you won't care then if I break into your car and steal your IPhone, you know, because everyone drinks a beer when they're under 21.

@HighEliteMajor I want to reply, but I think it would take this entire discussion in a direction that would be a disservice to the board and others following the thread. Because of that, I will refrain from replying to you any further on the subject.

I'd say I'm less excited about this season with what has came out for sure. I also think that the NCAA is to blame for letting it go on. What choice does a power 5 team have if the NCAA is letting others get away with it like they have for decades? If you want to get these guys and do anything but get stomped 30 you are going to have to do the same thing. Players have been getting paid for decades at least maybe since it began, I know guys that played at the JUCO level and NAIA level that say guys got stuff. Think of it like the speeding ticket, most of us prob go 5 or 10 over because we haven't been ticketed for doing so. If I was pulled over for doing 5 overa few times, I wouldn't do it anymore. The question to me is how dirty are we? Did we pay some guys, all guys? I think most of us would call out other programs if such was released about them but I'm still not sure how everything adds up with what we know. It makes zero sense to sit certain guys you paid while playing others.

@kjayhawks One thing we haven't discussed -- what if the broad range of other schools are not doing this? I know that seems a bit far-fetched. But what if there are some that aren't in this conspiracy?

@mayjay [

@HighEliteMajor Maybe it isn't totally prevalent. But rumor has it that even the famed Little Sisters of the Poor is bringing in former East German female weightlifters to play the 4 position, using improper recruiting inducements such as free steroids.

[

Jeremy is an asshole.

@HighEliteMajor That would be interesting, I'd fire Self the day that came out if it was true. If we are paying guys to win one title in 30 years, we arent doing it right. I would say my chances of winning the lotto are higher than most of the power conference teams being clean.

@kjayhawks So, you will be hosting us on your yacht for a big Buckets party in April?

HighEliteMajor said:

@kjayhawks One thing we haven't discussed -- what if the broad range of other schools are not doing this? I know that seems a bit far-fetched. But what if there are some that aren't in this conspiracy?

You can find those teams at the bottom of their conference standings, if there are any P5 programs that are truly clean.

It will be interesting to see how the university handles this after the trial and verdict. Do they admit the wrong doing? Do they make Self face the media? Do they essentially "take the 5th" because there could be further charges? Do they fire KT as the sacrificial lamb? Does the chancellor demand accountability? Does the AD challenge the "cheating" culture? Does KU commit to a clean program, no payments, no Adidas help, moving forward?

The university has to respond to this, right?

Or, does ... everyone ... just ... act ... like ... nothing ... happened?

Have we already seen the net result -- Markese Jacobs decommitting because he wasn't paid (?) and KU gaining commitments from 100ish guys? No commits from anyone near a high-level recruit status?

The lead story at ESPN.com. How lovely.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25018425/attorney-adidas-executive-says-20k-payment-only-made-request-kansas-jayhawks-coach-bill-self ↗

Violations 'not worth it' to new KU aide

By Gary Bedore

Tuesday, June 8, 2004

Kurtis Townsend, who was hired Monday as an assistant men's basketball coach on Bill Self's staff at Kansas University, worked at California from 1993 to 1997 under two head coaches -- Todd Bozeman, who was fired and sanctioned by the NCAA for rules violations, and Ben Braun, Bozeman's successor.

Townsend never has been accused of NCAA wrongdoing.

"I've asked for and received letters from the athletic directors at Michigan and Cal indicating I never had anything to do with NCAA (violations)," Townsend said. "We were at Michigan after they recruited the Fab Five.

"What happened with Todd was very difficult. To see that happen to a colleague and friend made it more difficult for me. That happening in my first college job ... I said I'd never do anything like that. It's not worth it to me.

"You don't have to do things -- a scholarship is a reward in itself. My daughter has been awarded a track scholarship to Syracuse. I can tell you it's a big deal to our family that she's on scholarship."

https://www.seattlepi.com/sports/article/Locked-on-Sports-Clean-or-not-recruiter-mines-1146755.php ↗

HighEliteMajor said:

It will be interesting to see how the university handles this after the trial and verdict. Do they admit the wrong doing? Do they make Self face the media? Do they essentially "take the 5th" because there could be further charges? Do they fire KT as the sacrificial lamb? Does the chancellor demand accountability? Does the AD challenge the "cheating" culture? Does KU commit to a clean program, no payments, no Adidas help, moving forward?

The university has to respond to this, right?

Or, does ... everyone ... just ... act ... like ... nothing ... happened?

Have we already seen the net result -- Markese Jacobs decommitting because he wasn't paid (?) and KU gaining commitments from 100ish guys? No commits from anyone near a high-level recruit status?

The lead story at ESPN.com. How lovely.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/25018425/attorney-adidas-executive-says-20k-payment-only-made-request-kansas-jayhawks-coach-bill-self ↗

You are off on Jacobs. He ended up at Depaul for good reason.

@BigBad I read that article years ago. Funny how he decides Townsend was dirty because he was hired at places after other people were accused, or because he actually had "contact" (no! say it ain't so!) with someone who did something. I looked in vain for anything about what Townsend is suspected of doing. Recruited 5 kids who followed him. BFD.

I'm not saying he is dirty. I just presented two articles with what seems like two different opinions.

HighEliteMajor said:

It will be interesting to see how the university handles this after the trial and verdict. Do they admit the wrong doing? Do they make Self face the media? Do they essentially "take the 5th" because there could be further charges? Do they fire KT as the sacrificial lamb? Does the chancellor demand accountability? Does the AD challenge the "cheating" culture? Does KU commit to a clean program, no payments, no Adidas help, moving forward?

The university has to respond to this, right?

Or, does ... everyone ... just ... act ... like ... nothing ... happened?

Now to unpack this.

Bet not. Doubt it. Probably. Unsure on this but I hope KT is kept on. Don't think so, Self has more power than Long. I wouldn't bet on it. Maybe they slow on the shoe game for awhile but kids are getting paid one way or another imo.

I wish I had a really good basketball player for a kid. I want to get paid too.

@wissox yep, coming from a poor family as most of these kids are I can’t blame them for taking the money. What would you expect a poor 17-19 year old to do? Most of them know other players and see how it is, especially the OADs. They will only be around a season and it has little to no effect on them going forward. Go on take the money and run as Tom Petty would say.

@kjayhawks Steve Miller Band?

@mayjay shoot you’re right lmao it’s late

https://soundcloud.com/rockmradio/dive-cuts-episode-37-with-sam-snelling-matthew-harris-and-carrington-harrison ↗

Very sensible takes on the situation here from Carrington Harrison, a Missouri guy no less. The parts about the value of athletes in particular are quite good.

A sensible take from that hack. That’s surprising.

Woodrow said:

A sensible take from that hack. That’s surprising.

Eh, he's generally fine imo. Do you have some issues with some of his previous content? I don't think I could listen to any radio person for 4 hours a day.

@BShark I don’t listen to him anymore at all or 610 for that matter. Not that 810 is that much better other than Soren.

He just wants to play the race card on EVERYTHING.

I don’t know if you follow him, but he was a huge Kayne fan and made that bracket of Kanye’s best 64 songs and it went viral. Like everyone that follows or likes that kind of music was talking about it. Then Kayne started his Trump thing and now he hates Kayne , feels sorry for him, etc... I thought that was pathetic.

@Woodrow Soren is the only KC radio guy I EVER listen to. And that's just when I happen to be in the car when he is on. So usually lunch time. The rest are definitely meh.

Anyway I understand where you are coming from on it. Kanye has admitted he has mental health issues though so in that sense I feel for him as well.

Disappointed in HCBS? Rubbish.

@HighEliteMajor you should be disappointed in yourself. And so do all KU fans for that matter.

What is HCBS supposed to do?

So what if HCBS played it straight and by the rules(not saying he did anything wrong)(but what if he did). He refused to get in the mud with Duke, Kentucky, and UNC for the top recruits? Thereby losing more games and flopping even more in the tournament You @HighEliteMajor would be leading the charge to get rid of him. Yet you expect a coach of KU to compete at the highest levels without cheating when all the others are doing it. Sadly KU fans as a whole feel the same way as you @HighEliteMajor. They want all this greatness but by following the rules. Yet all the other major top basketball schools are cheating. Sadly when that coach fails to keep KU basketball at the top of the heap you all will be calling for their head.

The problem is the system. End of discussion.

@DoubleDD Welcome back. :)

I have not seen anyone post about who won the Zion lotto $$$? If he was wanting $$$ from adidas who won the battle? Why hasn't the NCAA asked the question of How much money did Nike pay Zion's family to go to Duke?

Duke University and Nike Inc. reached a 10-year sponsorship agreement that will supply all 26 of the Blue Devils’ athletics teams with uniforms, footwear, apparel and equipment.

If Money were an issue and his family was asking for it WHY would he go to duke for free??? How much were his parents paid? Come on! You expect us to believe that adidas was offering money and housing to attend KU and he went to Duke for free? From what I looked up and its public record his mother filed for bankruptcy a year ago or something like that. So if they were after a payday why go to Duke? I am sorry I think this goes hand in had with Clinton sayin if they take her down she would take half of congress with her. If they go after Self the whole establishment will go down too.

Again Why are there crickets on Dukes poster child. His parents didn't turn down good jobs, free housing, and $20,000 because they liked Duke better than a free ride. No fn way!

@DoubleDD If only it were the end of the discussion ...

You said, "Sadly KU fans as a whole feel the same way as you @HighEliteMajor. They want all this greatness but by following the rules."

Yea, quite the unreasonable demand. Integrity. Honesty. Pie in the sky stuff.

Not sure why I should be disappointed in myself. I'm not a liar and a cheater.

You heard it here first folks. HEM has never lied once in his life.

@BShark I don't lie!

@BShark HEM didn't say that. HEM has expressed an opinion that obviously some here disagree with and others agree with. I lean towards his position, although it hurts like heck because I've always believed Self is above reproach. Just because HEM says that he values honesty and integrity isn't an admission he's never lied. I value it too, but, I've lied more than my fair share, although I really try not to.

BeddieKU23 said:

From my memory of the Cliff Alexander recruitment Self was accused by other schools (fans) etc for how he was able to secure his commitment. The term Dollar Bill has been a popular one over the years

Oh, you would not believe how often I have heard that here in Michigan from MSU fans. Some seem to think that Cliff was bound for MSU until we swept in and paid him. One local radio guy in particular rails on that topic. And then Josh spurned MSU and playing with his buddy from Flint.....that was the topper. People here swear that Izzo and Belein have nothing to do with Shoe money.

@Hawk8086 Yeah, so far as we know Izzo only provided cover for several criminals.

@mayjay Cover up some rapes here and there. Nbd.

Maybe it's that way everywhere? Maybe everyone is doing it? Just saying guys.

Is it unreasonable?

If KU covered up a rape I'd be out until that coach was out.

@BShark there was one that happened at the dorm...

I'm not accusing anyone here. I'm simply asking a question. With everything else that ppl think goes on and maybe does go on under the table...

Is it unreasonable to begin to wonder about things like that?

@cragarhawk I don’t think Self would cover up a rape, He didn’t cover up Braggs deal and even sat him til he was proven innocent. Their only a few matters that come to mind of hiding stuff. Jackson’s kicking of Vick’s ex GFs car after she threw drinks at them, not that I agree with that action but I would say that’s definitely not in the same category as rape. The episode of Vick’s GF saying he pushed her a few back wasn’t given light til well after but records they both called each other in several times for similar reasons. Hardly makes it pass but sounds like a lotta he said, she said in a toxic relationship. Man I hope Vick is single haha..

I don't think that either. It's a simple question. Is the thought entering your mind unreasonable. I think if you believe other things you see and hear you can at least say it isn't unreasonable to wonder.

The truth is this. If you are capable of covering up some things, then nobody knows how far youre willing to go. Nobody but you knows how honest you really are. Or what you're capable of. And it is not unreasonable after that... To wonder

Considering all the details have come out over the years like @kjayhawks said I would like to think Self wouldn't do that. Kjay even didn't mention some like Tharpe having sex on the court or w/e that was and the Morris twins with the bb gun.

Covering up a rape is a lot different than getting players paid I think. But I wouldn't say the question is invalid.

@BShark absolutely agree. It's on an exponentially different level in my opinion. But the point is well seen. Whenever ya find out things weren't as you thought they were, it suddenly isn't unreasonable to start wondering about all things.

We know that a football player was kicked out for sexual assault but you’d have to be not only a terrible person for covering it up but to risk anything for a player on a team that sucks that day for would be one of the flatout stupidest things I could recall of hearing.

@kjayhawks okay. But the basketball team doesn't suck. And after all... That's all any KU fan really cares about right? Winning? Even if we have to do what everyone else does....

You see. Once you start to decide what's okay and what's not. What's gray and what's not on the integrity front.. it can take ya just about anywhere

@cragarhawk I think the integrity of paying players under the table is a little different than covering up your players that have raped individuals. Just because someone doesn’t pay taxes on there income from side work doesn’t make them a rapist too. One is arguably a victimless crime while one is clearly not.

If you all want a list of clean programs you'd rather root for, PM me and I'll give it to you. It's pretty short. Now that all this is coming out it's kind of a relief for us who've seen it firsthand to be like hey you all guess what? Big time college athletics aren't immune from economics either!

@kjayhawks whether or not its different is not in dispute, and in fact had already been stated.

You're missing the point. Once someone is dishonest with you about even the smallest of things.. you absolutely will begin to question the largest of things. Human nature. If you don't know this already brother. I sincerely hope and pray that you never first hand find out.

@cragarhawk right, I just don’t like the idea of jumping to conclusions on something that isn’t related.

@kjayhawks know the difference...
Nobody jumped to any conclusion.

Asking questions. Wondering. Not the same. Not a conclusion. And not unreasonable. Attack the tree at the root, not the branch.

HighEliteMajor said:

@DoubleDD If only it were the end of the discussion ...

You said, "Sadly KU fans as a whole feel the same way as you @HighEliteMajor. They want all this greatness but by following the rules."

Yea, quite the unreasonable demand. Integrity. Honesty. Pie in the sky stuff.

Not sure why I should be disappointed in myself. I'm not a liar and a cheater.

Yet you'll be the first one leading the charge of getting a KU HC getting fired if they don't deliver on the court.

You expect a KU Coach to play by the rules and deliver Final 4's and NC's year after year. Not one time will you say, "but they play by the rules".

What you don't think Duke, Kentucky, and UNC don't cheat? Yet you expect a KU HC to play by the rules yet stay on top of the College basketball world.

Who is a head case here?

mayjay said:

@Hawk8086 Yeah, so far as we know Izzo only provided cover for several criminals.

I agree, but you would still think he was Saint Izzo by listening to people here.

@DoubleDD Perhaps you. If others were cheating, because the professor was lax in paying attention during an exam, does that then justify you cheating as well to keep up (assuming the class is graded on a curve)? If so, why? If not, why not? What action would you take with this knowledge?

And I would not make assumptions about what I'd say. I expect KU's coach to play by the rules. Period. And if others are breaking the rules, then to take action to help ensure rules enforcement. You're thinking like a cheater.

It's not hard:

KC Star Reporter Jesse Newell: Coach, there have been major questions about KU's recruiting. Why are we missing on top players?

Self: Because we won't pay players.

Newell: What? Others are paying players.

Self: They are. Nike gave a kid $80,000 to go to Duke. We were given a chance to match. We said no. A UK booster bought a kid's mom a car. We won't do that. I know we love coach Roy around here, but UNC arranged a payment of $50,000 to the guardian of a they guy we just missed on.

See, cat out of the bag. Integrity. Or, one chooses to play the game.

I know which Bill Self I'd prefer.

We'll see how this plays out now that the cat have been publicly and painfully forced out of the bag. Remember that -- forced out. None of this is voluntary now.

@cragarhawk You said, "You’re missing the point. Once someone is dishonest with you about even the smallest of things… you absolutely will begin to question the largest of things. Human nature. If you don’t know this already brother. I sincerely hope and pray that you never first hand find out."

Excellent.

Fan fiction.

Integrity and honesty are easier than you think.

You're insane if you think this...

"Self: They are. Nike gave a kid $80,000 to go to Duke. We were given a chance to match. We said no. A UK booster bought a kid’s mom a car. We won’t do that. I know we love coach Roy around here, but UNC arranged a payment of $50,000 to the guardian of a they guy we just missed on."

Would ever be said. I don't think you are insane.

That's true. It would probably never be said. But why not? Maybe it should be. Perhaps it's time it came to that. I mean everyone wants to blame the evil organization right? Expose them for what they are.

@mayjay like your statement about "consistent with guilt and inconsistent with innocence." Never heard that but completely understand the importance of context.