🏀 KuBuckets Archive

!0_1563371680664_Capture.PNG ↗

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/bracketology ↗

The usual # one's.

@wrwlumpy Last year was fantasy- this year it's for real.

Doke's health is the single most important factor in how good this KU team will be.

With Doke last year, KU beat Michigan St., Marquette, and Tennessee. I don't know if KU wins a title if Doke stays healthy, but they probably win the B12 last season and have a very good shit at another Final Four. KU did reach the Final Four with Doke playing the entire season the year before.

Doke is a unique talent that I believe is the most valuable player on any major conference team in the country. We've seen what this team is with and without Doke for 3 years.

@Texas-Hawk-10 - nothing like having a “good sh*t” at another FF! 🤣

However, the difference this year is that KU has decent backup’s in SDS and Mac. Given enough game experience, they might hold down the back court. Also, quite a few 6’8”+ guys to help out.

@Texas-Hawk-10 shot?

@Texas-Hawk-10

I agree... we are such a different (better) team with Doke in the lineup. That proves out in all the statistics from last year, breaking it down game-by-game.

But I also see this year's team being so much more than Doke.

1. Gone are the often missing games of Vick and Q. And the drama won't be missed either.

2. Devon's role will change considerably into being a forceful playmaker.

3. Better depth in the post, including options to run two bigs most of the year. SDS and Mac should contribute in a large way. How will any team in the country stop our two-big lineup in the post? I expect us to get most of our opposing bigs in foul trouble. How do they stay out of foul trouble and defend anything?

4. Mystery help from our new guys. Moss, without question, should be a very solid contributor. As far as the freshmen go, it's likely they will contribute positively.

I'm so anxious to see what Self does with this group. There are so many possibilities, including some uber dynamic small lineups.

As excited as many are about anticipating some of our offensive potential, I'm most excited about our defensive potential. Adding Harris is just one more step into a future of solid defense. He may not get many minutes this year, but if he turns out to be the defender many boast about, we can expect some great defense now and in the future. Defense starts at the point. If you defend the point well, it makes a huge impact on overall defense.

I rarely fall for the early season #1 ranking tease. In fact, not sure I've ever appreciated it in the least. Though I do think this team has the chance to earn the #1 cred, if everyone stays healthy, focused and works their tails off. This should be one of Self's funner teams to coach.

@Gorilla72 Without Doke, KU doesn't have a proven low post scorer. Silvio and McCormack are both much better rebounders than scorers at this point.

Doke and Dotson are the two players that make KU a Final Four caliber team this year. Take either player off this KU team, and KU is a Sweet 16 team at best.

The experience difference from last year will be one of the big differences. We were playing 4 freshmen at the same time for long stretches last year. I expect to see a huge experience difference from last year, which I think is one of the most important aspects of long tournament runs. You've got Doke, Dotson, and Silvio on a mission this year. You've got Agbaji and Big Dave breaking out. You've got an experienced Moss added to the equation. You've got a defensive whiz in Marcus, who can flat lock players down. Great group of selfless guys that put team first. I have a good feeling this team will playing for big stakes.

@drgnslayr

1. Moss doesn't appear to be the locker room cancer Vick was, but on the court, he's the same mold as Vick. Moss is a streaky shooter so there will be multiple game stretches where he's a combined 2-11, 3-14 in that area like Vick.

As far as replacing Grimes, that comes down to the health of Garrett and Agbaji. Garrett still hasn't fully recovered from his high ankle sprain. Agbaji's legs are also a big question because if his issues are chronic and he loses his athleticism, he's only a marginally better player than Grimes.

1. I agree that Dotson needs to be a better playmaker, but I think we'll see that happen as a natural part of his development. I personally want to see him not pass up his open 3's. Even with Moss, I think Dotson is the best shooter among the rotation players next season and I want to see him let it fly more frequently.

2. I agree and disagree on post depth. I agree that we likely won't see Self switch between a lone post and two post line up, but I do have reservations about the scoring ability from the post beyond Doke. We don't know where Silvio's game is and what his range is. Can he stretch the floor if needed and hit 3's or mid range shots with any consistency, or is his range limited and he's a garbage man on offense?

Pretty much same deal with McCormack, how much has his game progressed? For his size, McCormack was a terrible rebounder last year. Has he gotten any better or is he going to get exposed with more minutes?

If Mitch redshirts, can anyone provide quality back up minutes at the 4?

1. I genuinely don't see the freshmen having much of an impact this year. This was a weak recruiting class and three of KU's recruits in a stronger year would only be 3 star players. I can easily see Self not redshirt Mitch and go with an 8 man rotation with Garrett, Mitch, and Dave as the subs and the freshmen getting scrap minutes.

This group no doubt has the potential to win a title, but there's also a lot of questions that need to be answered before KU is a legit threat.

@KUSTEVE It's not the experience jump you think it is this year.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I know. You've said that before.

@KUSTEVE I think you're going to be disappointed that this team doesn't hit the ground running. There is going to be an adjustment period and I don't think everyone is going to make the gains you think they will.

This team will still face a lot of the same issues they faced last year on offense. There may very well be a couple of positions KU takes a step back this year, the 4 spot being the main one. Silvio DeSousa is not going to be a better player than Dedric Lawson was. Silvio is more athletic, but that's about it. If he doesn't have the range to keep Doke from being doubled, there's going to be times where the offense goes stagnant.

Speaking of Doke, he has to hope his FT shooting is north of 50%, otherwise he's a liability on offense in close games.

Same thing with Isaiah Moss at the 3. The upgrade there is off the court far more than on the court. He's going to be the 4th or 5th scoring option when he's on the floor. Because he's a streaky shooter, there's going to be games when he's hurting the offense because he's in a cold spell.

This team also has no depth at PG behind Dotson. If push came to shove, Marcus Garrett would probably be the back up PG. McBride and Harris are total question marks about what they can do as lower ranked guys running point for a national title contender. There's a very good possibility that neither player is ready for meaningful minutes which means KU is one play away from being in rely rough shape.

The ceiling of this team is very high, but there's also some very real flaws with this team that can easily keep them from coming close to that ceiling.

@Texas-Hawk-10 We're not going to be tested until the game with Sparty. And i think we'll beat the crap out of them on the boards. Is that enough to win? If we can make Cassius shoot like he did against us last year, it sure might. I'm also not worried about Dook in the least. The Nova game could be the game where your words ring true. Road game against a Top 5 team, a team that will play 4 out, and spread the court, with a national championship coach. That's going to be tough. Not impossible, though. So...best case...undefeated going into conference... worst case...2 losses to 2 Top 5 teams going into conference. I can live with either result.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Oh, come on, these days (with early departures) this is the most talent and experience most teams have had in a decade! We'll have at least four guys starting from day one that know each other well.

We could ride Doke, Silvio and Dotson and a handful of hard working scrubs to the final four. And instead of a handful of scrubs we've got Ben the Wild Giant, Prison Mitch, Cool Hands Garrett, MJ 2.O-baji, Euro Slayer Enaruna, a Chicago Sharpshooter Moss ... then the young'uns who would probably start on most DI teams.

Don't kill my buzz! We're loaded.

Also... no Memphis drama

Man, the Silvio lowball is strong with some here. Hope he proves them all wrong.

We haven’t seen Silvio play in what, 10 years? I’m hoping he’s added to his arsenal and gives Doke a run for his money in the post...and further out.

We all have seen over the years that Bill Self coaches teams tend to not start the year off fast. Hence you do not have to be a prophet to deduce this years teams will most likely follow the same trajectory. The experience actually, historically, has proven to be a huge difference. Again, anyone who has watched Bill Self coached teams knows that his best teams are ones that are older and more experienced. This is the case throughout college basketball.

I think on Silvio people tend to forget how good he was once he started figuring things out in the Big 12 tournament and on through March. And that was being just a couple months removed from high school right in the thick of conference play.

As others have said, Doke is the key and always has been since his freshman year with the infamous Oregon fiasco. I’ll always believe a healthy Doke gets us a final four in 2017.

What’s not to like about this year? Better shooting, quality depth, more experience and our most impactful players back from last year. Things could be a lot worse.

@DanR The potential is there, but there's a lot of legitimate question marks about this team as well. How healthy will Doke, Agbaji, and Garrett be this year? Doke has missed most of two years and played injured his sophomore year.

Silvio DeSousa played less than 200 minutes his freshman year. How much has his offense progressed? Does he enough range to spread the floor any?

@Texas-Hawk-10 Silvio only needs to spread the floor about 8 feet to free up Doke. Looked capable in the scrimmages and he was a solid free throw shooter. I'd rather he put back misses rather than take three pointers. I know there's always a chance some team makes 65% of their threes to beat us, but we've got a stable full of horses to outrun and dunk them to oblivion if Bill will let them. Or, grind them into the dirt.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Now, whether or not Doke breaks his third hand is still a concern.

I most anxious to see Silvio play!💪🏽

@Texas-Hawk-10

Excellent post on Devil's advocacy...

I know we can add up past PT minutes of Doke and Silvio... not a big number. But I do count the total time they've been Jayhawks. You are right to think the extra time doesn't match real PT but to discount it is a mistake, too. And let's not forget these kids age in human years. Without anything else, just getting a year older while they are sitting on the fence entering manhood is a big deal.

I think you will end up being pleasantly surprised about Moss. He's a quality, skillful, smooth scorer. I'd take him any day over Vick. Vick ended his career living on the trey line. Very limited scorer, even though he started the year hot. Part of what made him such a variable was his scoring limitation. When he was guarded well on the perimeter, he was done. It won't be that way with Moss. And he's much better in the open floor, too. And comparing him to Q at the two... there is no comparison. Q was a disaster. Felt like we played most of the year 4 on 5. Hate to bash him... but the reality speaks for itself. Most of his game stats he should have had even playing blindfolded. He was consistently horrible all year, except a few games.

I look at Silvio, Mac and Doke as our three big men (thinking Mitch is a RS). I see it as 3 guys filling 2 spots. In our case the 4 and 5 are almost interchangeable, except Doke will need to be the 5 when in games.

I've heard nothing but great things about Silvio, and the players around him are biting at the bit to play with him in games. He's like a man playing in a boy's league.

We watched Mac settle in last year, including improving his rebounding substantially as he received move experience. He was just a nervous mass on the court when he started. The game began to slow down for him and I find it hard to believe he won't start where he left off or even be better.

Doke on the FT line... now that is a total gamble and until I see it, I will not put my neck on the line on that one. My hope is that since we have a more threatening front line, we will draw more fouls in the post anyways and teams won't have enough fouls to give to play "poke a Doke." I see "poke a Doke" as a possibility only in the last minute or so. Still... time to coach like the NBA and push/pull guys in and out every possession at the end. Not sure why college coaches don't think a bit more like NBA coaches. Still can't get them to think about 2 for 1 possessions at the end, etc etc etc. Hedging defenses... ha... forgetaboutit!

I will put my neck on the line about expecting greatness from Devon. He will make everyone look a lot better because he will be learning the role of playmaker... and Devon should become unstoppable at accomplishing that!

You gave many examples of what can go wrong, and no doubt, we will have some of that happen. I'm not predicting a Calipari "perfect season." Things do tend to go wrong at some point. I'm just excited for Jayhawk basketball and I'm liking this team immensely!

Rock Chalk!

@drgnslayr I have not seen Moss play, how does he compare to B-Rush?

Fightsongwriter said:

@drgnslayr I have not seen Moss play, how does he compare to B-Rush?

Nobody compares to B-Rush but B-Rush. He was one of a kind!!! I'm pretty biased though...regardless of what took place in the NBA...and speaking only of the time in a Jayhawk uniform...B-Rush is (in my opinion) the best player to suit up in the Bill Self era.

@Fightsongwriter Rush was a wing- Moss is a guard, so they don't play the same position. That said, you would never mistake Moss for Rush. Rush was a cut above.

@Fightsongwriter

Interesting comparison. I'm thinking BRush had more size, and he used his size well. Both are very smooth scorers. Both have respectable handles. I think BRush may be a better defender. BRush battled injuries while at KU, which actually helped us to get him to stay for our championship season.

I'm hoping Moss may become more aggressive driving the ball over BRush, but I have nothing to base that on... hope.

Not sure if we will be able to make completely fair comparisons because the players around them are so different, and Self has added so many twists to his hi-lo, making it more a hybrid motion offense. That should favor Moss.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I actually have the opposite opinion than you. I expect this team to start very fast. Our early opponents will likely be overwhelmed by the Doke/Silvio combo inside. That will cover up some of the roster issues early in the year. Skipping the Duke game for a second (I'll get back to them), the next four opponents are UNC-Greensboro, Monmouth, East Tennessee State and Chaminade. Then we get either a rebuilding UCLA team or an okay BYU squad. Then it's Colorado, UMKC, UW-Milwaukee, Villanova and Stanford. Duke and Michigan State are the only two squads we really have to worry about there. Everyone else probably gets run off the floor by our size.

So back to Duke. I actually think we even handle Duke with our size. They are depending on two freshmen inside in Carey and Hurt that don't have nearly the size and strength that Doke/Silvio have. If KU doesn't get into foul trouble, we probably bully Duke off the floor, too. They have some really good players, but nothing like this year where they had so much individual talent that they could just blow a team off the court. Carey and Hurt will be up against grown men in the paint for the first time in their lives.

But come conference season, I think things could shift if we cannot find some consistent perimeter scoring. Not one of the players that we have on the roster has been a consistent perimeter scorer in their college careers. Maybe we can get by doing it by committee, but that's hoping that one of the group has it going every night so teams cannot just pack the paint.

Once teams start adjusting to our size/strength advantage, we have to have a counter. That's what I will be waiting to see. That's what gives me pause.

@justanotherfan don’t forget about Dave!

I really want to see Silvio slap HURT around🤕, that's his dumb headband he had on at one of the all star games. I'm pretty violent.😇

I could see Silvio giving Hurt a wedgie, and hanging him by the rim. But nothing beats what @FarmerJayhawk said in the Duke thread. I still say that it's the perfect post.

rockchalkwyo said:

I could see Silvio giving Hurt a wedgie, and hanging him by the rim. But nothing beats what @FarmerJayhawk said in the Duke thread. I still say that it's the perfect post.

Thank you for your kind words!

@FarmerJayhawk did you say kind words about duke?🤣

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@FarmerJayhawk did you say kind words about duke?🤣

If I did please call the nearest psychiatric hospital immediately.

I couldn't find those words🥽

I keep saying this... and it deserves repeating. D1 this coming year is not prepared for Silvio! He has unbelievable strength and that was barely seen in the short time we had him on the court. He's only gotten stronger (thanks Andrea!) and he has never played "open throttle basketball" in a Jayhawk uniform. What we really need to hear from is the rest of our players... their comments on Silvio's strength. Duke bigs are going to look like boys... because they will be boys.

We all know that Doke is an original weapon that few teams can stand up to. Silvio will be another original weapon opposing players won't be able to handle. Mac will be a huge help, too!

Let's just hope our backcourt will come together nicely to make us a more complete team! I feel plenty of confidence, and it has been a long time since I've been this confident of our upcoming team during tomato season!

@justanotherfan Teams are going to pack the paint against KU because like last season, KU doesn't have a lot of proven outside shooting. Moss is not a dead eye shooter so there will be nights where KU struggles from the outside and go through significant scoring droughts.

This team will be very similar offensively to last season before Doke's injury and that team didn't blow bad teams out of the water. They had a lot of scoring droughts and this team will as well.

@justanotherfan Moss 42%. Dotson 36%. Agbaji - 30%. I don't see a problem with our perimeter. No way Agbaji shoots less than 35% from 3.

@KUSTEVE

Moss is very streaky. He shot 42% from three, but he did that in a very streaky way. A sample:

Opens the season by going a combined 1-9 from the field in games against UMKC and Green Bay. Hits 7-12 threes in his next three games versus Oregon, UConn and Alabama State.

He followed that three game stretch up with a combined 1-8 from the field against Pitt and Wisconsin, then dropped an efficient 13 (4-8, 2-3) against Michigan State and a 20 piece (8-12, 4-5) in a rivalry game against Iowa State in back to back games.

A week after that Iowa State game he went 1-4 against Northern Iowa.

Or take this five game swing during conference play:

21 vs. Illinois on 7-12 shooting, including 5 threes

2 points against Michigan State on 1-7 shooting

23 at Minnesota on 8-14 shooting with 6 threes

Back to back goose eggs at Indiana and at home against Michigan on a combined 0-11 shooting.

Of course he would follow that up with 16 against Northwestern (6-12) and 17 against Rutgers (7-12).

My point is that Moss can score for sure. But he can also disappear.

@justanotherfan He was hurt the first 7 or 8 games of last year, and played sparingly, and his shooting suffered. No doubt he's had his erratic moments, but he isn't the only shooter we have.

@KUSTEVE yeah I don’t get what some are getting at - are they saying we couldn’t use a guy who shot 50% during conference play?? Even if he is streaky, I’d take it every day.

@HawkChamp I could be wrong on that. I'll calculate it tonight, and give you an update. But as I recall, he shot much better after he started playing more minutes.

People keep saying how teams will pack it in the paint this year, which MAY happen but I think it’s pretty overblown. I don’t think there’s any way we are as bad of a shooting as last year. I don’t predict that will happen at all and that circumstance occurring is the only way teams will pack it in. I understand the concern but at this juncture in time it’s pretty unfounded.

@KUSTEVE None of those players are consistent shooters, they're all streaky shooters like Lagerald Vick and Elijah Johnson. Moss is a player that can hit 5/6 in a game and then make 2 total 3's during the next 3 games. That's what his career has been and there's no reason to think that'll change this year. Agbaji is also a streaky shooter and I don't expect him to be much better than 35% this season and that's if he's healthy all year. Dotson is the only one with potential, he last year he was too scared to pull the trigger on a lot of open 3's. This is going to be a marginally better shooting team that last year.

I kept saying last summer this was going to be a team that struggled to score because of a lack of outside shooting. I got crapped on by a lot of people for that position and when the season started and KU was a bad shooting team that went through a lot of scoring droughts, a lot of people were shocked even though I'd been saying it for months that it would happen. This season isn't going to be much different in that area.

There's only going to be 2 new players in KU's rotation this year, Moss and Silvio. This is strictly on court, but Moss isn't an upgrade over Vick. He's a push at best. Off the court, obviously there's no comparison as Vick was probably the second biggest locker room cancer of a play Self has had after CJ Henry. Silvio is a down grade from Dedric on the offensive end of the floor. Silvio is a better rebounder than Dedric, but Dedric was far superior to Silvio in regards to scoring. Experience is the reason for that, but that's reality. On defense, it remains to be seen what kind of development Silvio has made. Until proven otherwise, I would consider Silvio a down grade from Lawson.

As for replacing Grimes, it really comes down to whether or not Agbaji's shin issues are chronic or not. I suspect it will still be an issue because Agbaji is still growing and maturing physically, he may end up similar to Wayne Selden and have to modify his game to account for leg issues.

With Marcus Garrett, a two post player system is the worst fit for his offensive game. His best work came right after the Doke injury and KU was running the 4 guard offense again and Garrett had room to drive. A two post player offense takes that element of Garrett away which is where his value on offense comes from if he's not running point. I think Garrett ends up being the back up point once the rotation is finalized.

This is why I keep harping on Silvio having to have a consistent mid range or outside shot. If Silvio doesn't have a consistent mid range or outside shot, the offense will take a step back this year because teams are going to pack the paint and force KU to beat them from deep just like last year. I fully expect teams to pack the paint, sit in the passing lanes, and take away the drive which hurts Dotson, Agbaji, and Garrett because driving is the biggest strength offensively for each of those players.

KU shot 35% from 3 last year, I genuinely don't expect much improvement this year, if any. I'm calling it now, KU is going to play bully ball which is going to result in a lot of lower scoring games for KU this year.

@Texas-Hawk-10 no, at the end of the year Dedric was turning into a detriment on the offensive end of the floor, needed a ton of shots to get twenty points and was shooting a low percentage from three. Apparently you missed how good Silvio was in the March run in 2018 and how quickly he progressed after just joining the team. He was great against Konate in the championship game and held his own against Bagley and Carter and was key in the final four run. I’ll take the potential I saw in Silvio, his on court results and assumed improvements over what we saw out of Dedric at the end of the year.

@HawkChamp oh the slander! We needed Dedric, he was one of the only guys on the team last year that could create for himself and others. Remove him and all else stays the same and KU likely missed the tournament.

@BShark I know that, I’m mostly referring to how I would prefer a player like Silvio over Dedric. Even in his short time playing, Silvio made several plays, like the half court ally oop against Clemson or the alley oop to end the first half against West Virginia that Dedric could never make. Silvio has more potential, more strength, more athleticism and more efficiency, hence my reply to why Silvio is a better option imo.

@HawkChamp I didn't miss it, I just don't overhype his performance because of one good game. His limited minutes are getting overhyped the way Cole Aldrich as a freshmen frequently gets overhyped because of what Cole did against UNC. Silvio has a lot of potential, but until he shows he can do that consistently with extended minutes, it's still just potential for Silvio. He won't be what he was against WVU in the B12 tournament every game. That was an A+ game and you get A+ every game. Most games you get a C and Silvio's C game this year is probably lower than Dedric's C game was last season at least on offense.

Silvio played more than 15 minutes 3 times and only reached double digits in points two times. Most of his offense was limited to put backs off of misses or teams doubling Doke off of him.

The reason Dedric became less efficient as the year went on was because he was the sole focus of the offense after Doke's injury. When you put have one guy who's not afraid to take a shot, his numbers were going to get worse as the year went because he was wearing down because he didn't have any help.

Don't forget that in the NCAA Tournament, Silvio played 10, 4, 13, 26, and 10 minutes in those games. He didn't exactly follow up that WVU game with more great games.

His NCAA performance is why I'm pumping the brakes on the Silvio hype train. Do not forget that in his 22 games, Silvio played a grand total of 175 minutes.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I know all that, I watched every game and have watched replays. Similarly, you should not forget that he was what, two months removed from high school? To do what he did in that short amount of time is a testament to his potential and learning capability.

My position remains the same - we will be a better team at the end of the year with a long, strong and athletic player like Silvio over a player like Dedric. Don’t get me wrong, I like Dedric as a player but he doesn’t raise the ceiling of a team to the extent that Silvio does.

@HawkChamp Your key term is potential. I will not argue about the higher ceiling because Silvio absolutely has the higher ceiling. KU is not getting a 4th year Silvio with a refined game. They're getting a Silvio with less than 200 of game time that's likely still very raw offensively. That consistency is why I'd rather take a 4th year Dedric over the version of Silvio we'll get this year that will likely still struggle with consistency.

@Texas-Hawk-10 that May happen, it may not. Who knows how “refined” his game is. All I care about is progression through the year and it doesn’t sound illogical to assume Silvio will do just that. He has final four experience and a year to learn about Selfs system and practice with the team. I mean, it’s not like he was chilling on the sidelines and doing nothing but eat Snickers and listen to Kanye the whole time. Sure, he needs more game experience but he’ll get plenty of that during the season and be primed to go in March.

@HawkChamp The E8 win against Duke in that run, Silvio played 26 minutes and scored 4 points. That's why he won't be Dedric Lawson. He will develop, but that takes time and there is no substitute for that. Lawson got to where he was because of on court experience. Silvio DeSousa lacks that.

Lawson was entering his junior season just like Silvio will be this year. Silvio has played 175 minutes of college basketball entering his junior season. Dedric Lawson had played 2,166 minutes of college basketball entering his junior season.

As far as practicing, yeah Silvio practiced last season, but he was scout team all year. He wasn't running the KU offense at all in practice, he was running the other team's offense. This matters as well because he doesn't have the reps in the Self offense.

I think you're getting way ahead of yourself about what Silvio will be this year because of a few good moments sprinkled in with a lot more bad moments.

@HawkChamp Ok, I was wrong. Moss shot 33 of 67 from 3 in B10 play, which is only 49%...not 50%.

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

On a side not Silvio looks to be in shape

Just getting ready to post that! So dang happy for him!

Woodrow said:

🐦 View Tweet?s=21

On a side not Silvio looks to be in shape

Mercy - - that's like a brick shithouse without a brick missing

@Texas-Hawk-10 And I think you're ignoring important facts about when Silvio played.

First, with Svi, Devonte, Malik and Vick being the terrific perimeter players and shooters they were, the offense was never going to go through a freshman Silvio, nor should it have.

Secondly, you discuss point numbers yet conveniently leave out his rebounding numbers and overall low post presence, which is what we were desperately needing at the time. In the Big 12 tournament, here are his numbers -

OSU - 6 points, 8 rebounds

KSU - 8 points, 11 rebounds

WVU - 16 points, 10 rebounds

I'll give it to you that he didn't do much against Penn or Seton Hall, but here are his numbers against Clemson and Duke -

Clemson - 9 points, 6 rebounds

Duke - 4 points, 10 rebounds

To me, those are all really solid numbers and absolutely took care of the need. If he posted numbers like that in that short amount of time, I'm confident that he has potential to do more. I'm not sure why this is something that would even be brought up for debate by anyone who paid attention to the games at the time.

Thirdly, you say that there were plenty of bad moments - uh, duh, he was two months removed from high school and joined during conference season! Yeah, he was on a steep learning curve that was a very unique situation and yet he improved a lot and played great for us on the way to the Big 12 tournament championship and a final four run.

Given on court time, Silvio WILL get there and impact the team in more diverse ways than Dedric ever did. Remember, scoring is important but there is more to it than that. There is a reason dragonslayr has been talking a lot about the physicality of our frontcourt with Dok, Dave and Silvio. Did we have that last year with no Dok and Silvio? Absolutely not. It was soft as a kitten’s fur in that department, which is part of what Dedric does not contribute. I know Silvio will likely not score as many points as Dedric per game, but it’s the other facets of his game that this year’s team will reap the benefits of.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I think Silvio gets 20 minutes a game, max...simply because of what silvio lacks- a mid-range game. They interviewed Coach Self a few weeks ago, and asked him who had made the biggest improvements of anyone on the team this summer, and he said...hands down it was Dave. He said there is absolutely no question that Dave was our best big shooter by far. Dave could make the Silvio worry moot. And I think he will. Now, you'll probably fire back that Dave is not all that and a bag of chips, but you won't convince me otherwise. In fact, I think you're going to be surprised how good Silvio looks, too.

You compared Moss to Vick, and then missed the boat on the most important difference between Vick and Moss: Moss ain't gonna quit on the team. Advantage Moss.

Saying 3 point shooters are streaky is like saying that water is wet. We could say that about Devonte, Malik, and Svi. One would have a good game while the rest couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that night. Very few times did all three just murder it in a game. My point is that we have guys that can make 3s. Moss will never be as open as he is in our offense. In the Iowa offense, he had to create every shot. He's going to die and go to heaven being fed the ball being completely wide open. Maybe Ochai is injury prone, and never gets there. But, maybe he manages better this year with full awareness of the symptoms, and knows when to back off better than he did the first time it happened. Maybe he manages 25-30 minutes. I'm betting 35% or better from 3 because he can flat shoot. I like JW too. McBride...Braun are no slouches....and one of these days, Marcus is going to put it together. Then you add the best basketball coach in college, and you have a formula for a deep run.

@KUSTEVE Dave isn't going to be playing alongside Doke much, if at all, he's going to be the back up for Doke which means him and Silvio likely play together quite a bit as well. I do think the spacing will be better with Dave and Silvio together because of Dave's mid range ability. My big concern with Dave is his rebounding ability because it was awful last year. That has to get better for him to see a significant uptick in his minutes.

You also need to go back and re-read my Vick/Moss comparison because I specifically said on the court, I did not mention off the court because I've already called Vick the second biggest cancer KU has had under Self. I wasn't a big fan of bringing Vick back last year because of his baggage.

Saying a 3 point shooter streaky is like saying water is wet is not a good analogy. There is a difference in the type of outside shooter players like Vick and Moss are compared to what Svi, Graham, and Mason were as shooters. A bit streak for a streaky shooter may be something like hitting 60 or 70% over a 2-3 game stretch like we saw with Vick early last season. A cold streak for a streaky shooter is going to be hitting about 20% over a several game stretch.

Consistent shooters like Svi, Graham, and Mason don't tend to spike as much either way during hot or cold stretches. That's the difference between a streaky shooter and a consistent shooter.

Wilson, McBride, and Braun can shoot, but they won't be factors in the rotation so they don't add much this year. In a couple of seasons, those guys will probably challenge the '17 and '18 teams for made 3's, but they aren't ready yet.

As for Garrett he's never going to be a good shooter. Just look as his FT% and tell me why we should expect him to ever find a consistent shot. His ceiling is about 33% as a deep shooter. Garrett is a slasher, not a shooter.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Hope your wrong but that’s a strong take. I have the same concerns.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@KUSTEVE Dave isn't going to be playing alongside Doke much, if at all, he's going to be the back up for Doke which means him and Silvio likely play together quite a bit as well. I do think the spacing will be better with Dave and Silvio together because of Dave's mid range ability. My big concern with Dave is his rebounding ability because it was awful last year. That has to get better for him to see a significant uptick in his minutes.

You also need to go back and re-read my Vick/Moss comparison because I specifically said on the court, I did not mention off the court because I've already called Vick the second biggest cancer KU has had under Self. I wasn't a big fan of bringing Vick back last year because of his baggage.

Saying a 3 point shooter streaky is like saying water is wet is not a good analogy. There is a difference in the type of outside shooter players like Vick and Moss are compared to what Svi, Graham, and Mason were as shooters. A bit streak for a streaky shooter may be something like hitting 60 or 70% over a 2-3 game stretch like we saw with Vick early last season. A cold streak for a streaky shooter is going to be hitting about 20% over a several game stretch.

Consistent shooters like Svi, Graham, and Mason don't tend to spike as much either way during hot or cold stretches. That's the difference between a streaky shooter and a consistent shooter.

Wilson, McBride, and Braun can shoot, but they won't be factors in the rotation so they don't add much this year. In a couple of seasons, those guys will probably challenge the '17 and '18 teams for made 3's, but they aren't ready yet.

As for Garrett he's never going to be a good shooter. Just look as his FT% and tell me why we should expect him to ever find a consistent shot. His ceiling is about 33% as a deep shooter. Garrett is a slasher, not a shooter.

I think your just flat grossly mis stating fact if you think Wilson won't be a factor - your WAY under estimating Wilson

@jayballer73 Where are his minutes going to come from? This is the type of team where Self typically has a very short leash with freshmen.

Just about every scouting report on Wilson talks about him being a better scorer than shooter at this point so I wouldn't expect him to light world in fire with his shooting right away. He was also described as a good athlete which means he's a step slow compared to the top recruits where you would see the term great or elite athlete.

There's a reason he was ranked 50ish in a weak recruiting class. He's nowhere near a polished product and he's going to need time to get to where he can be which I think is somewhere between Marcus Morris and Perry Ellis. Those players needed time as well to become what they became at KU.

Best case for Jalen Wilson this year is the 4th big man which historically means 7-8 mpg because he isn't jumping Doke, Silvio, or Dave in the rotation barring injury. If Lightfoot doesn't redshirt, then Wilson is a non factor this year in the rotation and would only see spot minutes in mop up time because he wouldn't be ahead of Lightfoot either.

@jayballer73 We know historically that Self prefers a 7 or 8 man rotation once he trims the rotation for B12 play. Injuries can mess that rotation up obviously, but this is assuming no injuries.

KU has a full 13 man roster of scholarship players so that means 5 or 6 scholarship players will not be in that rotation. We also know redshsirting is a possibility, but we won't know who actually does or doesn't until much later so I'm ignoring that right now. Just so everyone is clear, the 3 redshirt possibilities this season would be Lightfoot, Braun, and Harris.

I think only of the starting spots are guaranteed at this point and that's Dotson and Doke. The other two perimeter spots will be between Agbaji, Garrett, and Moss and the other post spot will be between Silvio and McCormack.

I think the best line up for KU would be Dotson, Moss, Agbaji, Silvio, and Doke. I say this because Marcus Garrett can play 1-4 so he can sub for anyone if KU wanted to go 4 guards. I would have Dave off the bench because he can sub for either post position.

That's 7 players right there, that means there's maybe 1 more rotation spot available. Depending on how Self uses Garrett, that 8th rotation spot is likely the back up PG spot. That's a battle between McBride and Harris for that role.

@KUSTEVE I agree, and people are saying that defenses are going to pack it in. Pack it in with who and against whom? Our frontcourt is made of men and deep, and we will have shooters waiting outside.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Dave has a ways to go as a big. But, when I hear Coach Self raving about him the way he did this summer, it tells me something is happening enough for the coach to say "hands down" the most growth in the summer. Maybe some shooting range, maybe some improved ball skills, maybe some better rebounding. These players aren't stationary bicycles- they grow...they improve.

I think you've been crooning over Dedric's 19ppg so much, you aren't realizing that his points will be replaced. They are always replaced. Might not be one guy picking up the slack, but I guarantee you Bill's offense will always score what they normally score. In fact, because we have to make up for one big scoring guy, that makes our offense more diverse, and harder to defend. After Perry graduated, we all said where are the points going to come from now that Perry is gone, and we managed. We wonder every year where the points are going to come from ( unless we have returning top scorers), and every year, Bill manages to figure it out. It is why he is in the Hall of Fame.

Maybe it's a hodgepodge of 3 point shooters that carry us when we need it. Maybe it's Moss one night, Dotson the next time, and Agbaji the next. Maybe our frontline allows to us play more aggressively, and we pick up some cheapies off our defense. Cheapies we weren't getting last year because our defense sucked so badly. Maybe the improved rebounding allows us to have more possessions than last year, and so the "live and die by the 3 when they pack in the lane and we shoot badly" meme doesn't hold as much water. Maybe the question isn't "how is KU going to score" as relevant as "how are we going to score on KU"??? . Remember, there's more than one way to skin a wildcat.

Dedrick was pretty good and KU would’ve been up the creek without him. But don’t forget a “refined” Dedrick dropped a couple goose eggs as the focal point in the post. Silvio and his positive energy will be a nice change.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 Where are his minutes going to come from? This is the type of team where Self typically has a very short leash with freshmen.

Just about every scouting report on Wilson talks about him being a better scorer than shooter at this point so I wouldn't expect him to light world in fire with his shooting right away. He was also described as a good athlete which means he's a step slow compared to the top recruits where you would see the term great or elite athlete.

There's a reason he was ranked 50ish in a weak recruiting class. He's nowhere near a polished product and he's going to need time to get to where he can be which I think is somewhere between Marcus Morris and Perry Ellis. Those players needed time as well to become what they became at KU.

Best case for Jalen Wilson this year is the 4th big man which historically means 7-8 mpg because he isn't jumping Doke, Silvio, or Dave in the rotation barring injury. If Lightfoot doesn't redshirt, then Wilson is a non factor this year in the rotation and would only see spot minutes in mop up time because he wouldn't be ahead of Lightfoot either.

Well he and Doke play totally different positions - Dave and him play totally different positions so that eliminates him - - Silvio gonna be playing the 4 if not the 5 - - Jalen gonna be seeing more then enough time between the 2 and the 3 - -- Jalen has a nice stroke and yes he IS a scorer. - -Evan Daniels said multiple times that Jalen was a very overlooked rated player saying he should of been rated at least 10 higher

sit back and watch he gonna be much more playing factor then what your talking about. - He gonna between the two/three will be getting 13-14 minutes a game - -just watch. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

If Jalen Wilson plays a meaningful second at the 2 I will buy you a whole case of beer brother.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 We know historically that Self prefers a 7 or 8 man rotation once he trims the rotation for B12 play. Injuries can mess that rotation up obviously, but this is assuming no injuries.

KU has a full 13 man roster of scholarship players so that means 5 or 6 scholarship players will not be in that rotation. We also know redshsirting is a possibility, but we won't know who actually does or doesn't until much later so I'm ignoring that right now. Just so everyone is clear, the 3 redshirt possibilities this season would be Lightfoot, Braun, and Harris.

I think only of the starting spots are guaranteed at this point and that's Dotson and Doke. The other two perimeter spots will be between Agbaji, Garrett, and Moss and the other post spot will be between Silvio and McCormack.

I think the best line up for KU would be Dotson, Moss, Agbaji, Silvio, and Doke. I say this because Marcus Garrett can play 1-4 so he can sub for anyone if KU wanted to go 4 guards. I would have Dave off the bench because he can sub for either post position.

That's 7 players right there, that means there's maybe 1 more rotation spot available. Depending on how Self uses Garrett, that 8th rotation spot is likely the back up PG spot. That's a battle between McBride and Harris for that role.

I agree with Devon and Doke for the starting. - I think your gonna see a lot of Devon - - - and Doke - - - -Moss - - - - - -Silvio - -& Jalen combinations. - - -

I feel that chances are we will see Marcus actually getting the start a lot of times at the 3 - and then relieving Devon when he needs a spot rest at the 1 - -don't see Marcus playing anytime at the 4 - -I think we will see Agbaji backing Moss or visa versa at the 2 - -and even Jalen getting some at the 2 - -I think Jalen will see quality minutes at the 3 - -and Dave backing Doke at the 5 and Mitch backing Silvio at the 4 - or you can adjust according with the bigs between the 4 and 5. - -With Mitch playing some 5 - - - your not gonna see Jalen playing any 5 you can take that to the bank in College. Jalen is gonna get his minutes. - -A big reason Coach has only played 7 or 8 is he hasn't had a full compliment of quality players like this coming year.

He has had 1-2 super studs on the roster but he has actually 13 quality players 3-4 yr players well except for Doke who is a Senior and Devon who will be gone after this year. - -I really feel he is going to use his depth more this year - -he could actually go 2 deep over the entire line up - - -not that he will obviously , I just think your gonna see more then the 7 players I think you will see him going more or leaning more towards 9 this year

BShark said:

If Jalen Wilson plays a meaningful second at the 2 I will buy you a whole case of beer brother.

lmao - - - BUD LITE PLEASE lol - - ya - -Most of Jalen's minutes will be at the 3 - -but HE WILL get minutes - - more then 8-9 a game - even if you have to combine the two positions. - - BUD LITE - - BUD LITE - and very cold please - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

I like the confidence! I think he will mostly play at the 4, possibly get some time at the wing later. But with his athleticism he is more of a 4 in Bill's system. But the kind that draws away from the basket with a face up game like Perry and Marcus.

@jayballer73 Yeah, definitely ice cold. No lukewarm beer, please.

@KUSTEVE KU only scored 75 ppg last season. This is not some elite scoring team KU is returning. Considering this team is made up of mostly the same group as last season expect for two players (the two leading scorers), one of whom is not an offensive upgrade, wondering about points is a valid concern since it was a struggle last season at times.

@jayballer73 How much video on Wilson have you watched? He is not athletic enough to guard on the perimeter. Jalen Wilson will not see a single minute at the 2 during his time at KU.

Marco said:

@jayballer73 Yeah, definitely ice cold. No lukewarm beer, please.

oh ya - -ICE COLD - -goes down really nice on really hot days - and after that 1st one on hot days - - look out lol

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 How much video on Wilson have you watched? He is not athletic enough to guard on the perimeter. Jalen Wilson will not see a single minute at the 2 during his time at KU.

we shall see - - but I have seen enough to stick with what I said - -Jalen will FOR SURE get more minutes then what you project. - -Bshark - saying he thinks he plays at the 4 spot - -so even if he doesn't see a minute at the 2 like you say - which actually I've NEVER seen him playing there either that much - -but very strong about him playing the 3 - - so even I he plays mostly at the 3 - -then backs Silvio at the 4 he STILL getting more minutes. - -Jalen gonna see ALOT of time at the 3

@jayballer73 Whoever doesn't start among Garrett, Agbaji, and Moss is getting the back up minutes on the wing. Jalen Wilson isn't playing nearly as many minutes as you think he will this season. He's a solid prospect, but there's a reason he's ranked as low as he was in a weak class. He'll be a nice player in years 2 and beyond, but he won't average more than 7-8 minutes this year and that's only if Lightfoot redshirts. If Lightfoot doesn't redshirt, Wilson will average less than 5 mpg.

@Texas-Hawk-10

If I'm not mistaken, Moss is a 40+% shooter from trey. Yes... he can be inconsistent. Every player is from trey. I watch Steph Curry go 2 for 12, then go net 8 in a row. It's the nature of trey shooting... hot, cold, hot. What counts is the %.

You are putting up a solid argument. But you don't account for the positive unknowns. Mostly... we have a HOFr coach. It's his job to tweak the offense to make things work.

I definitely see Moss as an improvement over Vick and Q. Moss has many offensive weapons. Vick was only a trey shooter. Vick's shot stopped falling because teams would scout him. Really easy... get in his grill on the trey line and he's done. He wouldn't drive on those opportunities because he became a very non-aggressive player. Q wasn't a threat from trey or to drive. Zero! Surely Moss will play with more aggression.

I don't want to bag on Vick... I still like Vick a lot. But we were a better team without him. That speaks volumes. And though our depth chart fell... I felt like we would have been a much better team without Q. Total liability.

Watch the clip on Moss scoring all those points in like a minute and a half. He surely has some alpha dog in him to do that... something no other D1 player has ever done.

I like your commentary on many of the new guys and trying to throttle down immediate expectations. Wise. We never know if one or more of those guys can end up giving us a solid contribution in year 1, but we just can't count on that. I know I don't, but I'm still extremely optimistic about this team!

@drgnslayr Isaiah Moss had a PER of 14 last season. That's the same as Mitch Lightfoot last season. Moss shot a pathetic 38% from 2 point range last season.

Off the court and character wise, Moss is an upgrade over Vick, there's no arguing that part of the equation and that's why Moss is a net upgrade over Vick. As far as actually basketball ability goes however, Moss is not a better player than Vick. Moss had 14 games last season where failed to make a 3 pointer. 8 of those 0-fer games were in Iowa's last 16 games of the season. 4 of those 16 games, he didn't make a single FG the entire game. Go look at the game logs for Moss and you will see a picture of inconsistency on offense.

Moss does not drive well or take many shots inside the arc. Moss took 162 FGA last season, 114 of those were from 3 point range.
I'll be honest, if someone gave me the choice between Lagerald Vick without the baggage or Isaiah Moss, I'd take Vick every time.

There will be moments this season where people are wondering why the hell did Self bring him in, just be ready for it.

@Texas-Hawk-10 well that is depressing!

Man TexasHawk is certainly on a mission this summer to crush any hope of optimism or positivity that we all are craving after the debacle that was last season. How dare we be excited and hopeful that things are better. Shame on us!

drgnslayr said:

@Texas-Hawk-10

If I'm not mistaken, Moss is a 40+% shooter from trey. Yes... he can be inconsistent. Every player is from trey. I watch Steph Curry go 2 for 12, then go net 8 in a row. It's the nature of trey shooting... hot, cold, hot. What counts is the %.

You are putting up a solid argument. But you don't account for the positive unknowns. Mostly... we have a HOFr coach. It's his job to tweak the offense to make things work.

I definitely see Moss as an improvement over Vick and Q. Moss has many offensive weapons. Vick was only a trey shooter. Vick's shot stopped falling because teams would scout him. Really easy... get in his grill on the trey line and he's done. He wouldn't drive on those opportunities because he became a very non-aggressive player. Q wasn't a threat from trey or to drive. Zero! Surely Moss will play with more aggression.

I don't want to bag on Vick... I still like Vick a lot. But we were a better team without him. That speaks volumes. And though our depth chart fell... I felt like we would have been a much better team without Q. Total liability.

Watch the clip on Moss scoring all those points in like a minute and a half. He surely has some alpha dog in him to do that... something no other D1 player has ever done.

I like your commentary on many of the new guys and trying to throttle down immediate expectations. Wise. We never know if one or more of those guys can end up giving us a solid contribution in year 1, but we just can't count on that. I know I don't, but I'm still extremely optimistic about this team!

This +100. How some people (not mentioning any names lol) forget that Vick was often a liability on defense, something that Moss is known for being good at. I would take solid D and the percentage he shot last year in conference play, however inconsistent, every day of the week. To me, this is a no-brainer.

KUSTEVE said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 Dave has a ways to go as a big. But, when I hear Coach Self raving about him the way he did this summer, it tells me something is happening enough for the coach to say "hands down" the most growth in the summer. Maybe some shooting range, maybe some improved ball skills, maybe some better rebounding. These players aren't stationary bicycles- they grow...they improve.

I think you've been crooning over Dedric's 19ppg so much, you aren't realizing that his points will be replaced. They are always replaced. Might not be one guy picking up the slack, but I guarantee you Bill's offense will always score what they normally score. In fact, because we have to make up for one big scoring guy, that makes our offense more diverse, and harder to defend. After Perry graduated, we all said where are the points going to come from now that Perry is gone, and we managed. We wonder every year where the points are going to come from ( unless we have returning top scorers), and every year, Bill manages to figure it out. It is why he is in the Hall of Fame.

Maybe it's a hodgepodge of 3 point shooters that carry us when we need it. Maybe it's Moss one night, Dotson the next time, and Agbaji the next. Maybe our frontline allows to us play more aggressively, and we pick up some cheapies off our defense. Cheapies we weren't getting last year because our defense sucked so badly. Maybe the improved rebounding allows us to have more possessions than last year, and so the "live and die by the 3 when they pack in the lane and we shoot badly" meme doesn't hold as much water. Maybe the question isn't "how is KU going to score" as relevant as "how are we going to score on KU"??? . Remember, there's more than one way to skin a wildcat.

This man gets it. Well said @KUSTEVE

@HawkChamp This is very good team on paper with a very high ceiling just like each of the last several seasons. Moss is a solid defender, but he's not better than Dotson or Garrett at that end of the floor.

The ranking last season and this season is based purely on one player and that's Udoka Azubuike. His two wrist injuries to me are a sign that his muscles, tendons, and ligaments haven't caught up to his size yet. I guarantee he's not the only player who's hand has been caught in Jersey in practice under Self, but why is he the only one suffering serious injuries from that. The one year he didn't have a season ending injury, Doke still missed the B12 tournament with back issues.

I'll this right now, as long as Doke stays healthy, KU will be a top 5 team. If Doke misses games though, and given his track record I'd bet money him missing games, KU will struggle like last year because they will still have the same issues as last season.

With Doke, this team should make at least the E8. Without him, they will struggle to reach the Sweet 16.

@Texas-Hawk-10 it was his knee, the reason he missed big 12 tourney

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 Whoever doesn't start among Garrett, Agbaji, and Moss is getting the back up minutes on the wing. Jalen Wilson isn't playing nearly as many minutes as you think he will this season. He's a solid prospect, but there's a reason he's ranked as low as he was in a weak class. He'll be a nice player in years 2 and beyond, but he won't average more than 7-8 minutes this year and that's only if Lightfoot redshirts. If Lightfoot doesn't redshirt, Wilson will average less than 5 mpg.

just do me a favor and let me have some of that drink your drinking cause that must be some good shit - -that's laughable and I stay with he is gonna play ALOT more then you think

@jayballer73 agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 here. Minutes are exactly what I'd expect (8 min or 5 min) whether there's a redshirt btwn Lightfoot/Enanura or not.

@jayballer73 Who is Jalen Wilson better than right now that would give him big minutes?

Is he better than Udoka Azubuike?

Is he better than Silvio DeSousa?

Is he better than David McCormack?

Is he better than Mitch Lightfoot?

Which of those 4 players is he better than right now?

Only way Jalen Wilson is playing good minutes this year once Selfntrims the rotation is an injury or suspension to someone in that group.

@Crimsonorblue22 That's right, Embiid was the back issue. It's still an injury attributed to his size though which is the main concern with Doke.

To me, he looks like a taller Thomas Robinson. Great job Hudy!

!0_1563664169916_Capture.PNG ↗

@Texas-Hawk-10 Very few of Bill's teams have ever had a scorer as prolific as Dedric. Frank. Can't think of anyone else other than those two off the bat. It's not the norm. No doubt Silvio won't score like Dedric, but I could see Dotson scoring 5 more a game than last year. Doke will get his, and I really think Ochai breaks out in a significant way. If they disappoint, then we have a new version of 2012. They'll be ok on offense, but they will dominate on defense. 2012, we were 23rd in offense on Kenpom...last year, we were 27th. In 2012, we were ranked 3rd in defense...last year we somehow ended up 17th. As bad as we were defensively...17th. Unbelievable. If our defense turns it up like I think it will, we'll be grinding teams into a fine powder.

Now, this is all predicated on good health as you have alluded to in previous posts. But having injury history can also be a positive because it has the athlete taking direct action to prevent reoccurrence. With Ochai, if I had a whisper of a doubt about his health, I wouldn't have seen him take a pass in a scrimmage, and pass the ball between his legs before dunking with authority. With Doke, I don't think we'll see the backboard splitting dunks of the past...we'll see softer throw downs in order to protect his hands.

So, if our offense is just ok, then we still have a shot at 2012 type ceiling, where we won close games until the championship game. They weren't pretty, they had their moments where scoring was a real challenge, but that team was a defensive nightmare for other teams. Just like we'll be. Now, we are discussing a Bill Self team, are we not? The originator of "Bad Ball". Bill prefers a 65-60 game more than a 85-80 game anyway. He's been itching to get another big in the lineup for years. Hi-lo, baby...it's where it's at. No more " Four Out Fools Gold". That change can make the offense not flow as well, so it's not like your offensive concerns are unfounded. But, Bill likes it like that...grind it out, out rebound them, out tough them, defend hard ... that's his calling card. I don't think we'll be nearly as offensively challenged as you think, but if we are, we've got the right guy at the helm to make it work.

approxinfinity said:

@jayballer73 agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 here. Minutes are exactly what I'd expect (8 min or 5 min) whether there's a redshirt btwn Lightfoot/Enanura or not.

you got your opinion no problem - -and I'll take what your drinking too lol

I believe Embiid broke his back when he was thrown to the court. Still no foul has been called though. lol

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 Who is Jalen Wilson better than right now that would give him big minutes?

Is he better than Udoka Azubuike?

Is he better than Silvio DeSousa?

Is he better than David McCormack?

Is he better than Mitch Lightfoot?

Which of those 4 players is he better than right now?

Only way Jalen Wilson is playing good minutes this year once Selfntrims the rotation is an injury or suspension to someone in that group.

your trying him to have him take minutes from positions he is never gonna play - - Hello? - his minutes will come from the 3 - - again from the 3 - - again from the 3 - you can't try and ask if he is good enough to take minutes from Doke - -or McCormack those are positions he doesn't even play - -ya probably better then Mitch - -well talent wise anyways - -Is Mitch gonna start at the 3 - - ummm -- NOPE - who will keep him from getting quality minutes at the 3? - - at best Abaji will be competing - - - Eraunra isn't better at this point anyways - both Freshman Garrett might take some but not enough to keep him at 5-7 minutes a game. - -and when he isn't playing minutes at the 3 then he wil like has been mentioned more likely then not be getting minutes at the 4

There is no way in hell he only gets 5-7 minutes a game - -he would have to be a complete bust - -NOT HAPPENING - your approach you talk like he has never seen a basketball court in his life and will trip over his own feet - you must be watching some other film. - but this is pointless to keep going back and forth with you - -I'm staying with what I said before - -he will for sure get more then any 5-7 minutes a game. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 Jalen Wilson is not a 3 at the college level no matter how much you want him to play that spot because he's not quick enough to guard perimeter players and doesn't have the handles to be a perimeter based player. He's was 6-8, 215 lbs. on his recruiting profiles with more room to fill out. 6-8, 230ish lbs. is not a wing in college, that's a stretch 4. He have a similar role in the offense that Perry Ellis, Josh Jackson, and Marcus Morris had as face up players who can stretch defenses

I’m excited to see the team play, but I don’t expect any impact from the freshman this season. Moss is the impact addition coupled with the returning guys, less the deadwood that makes me excited.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 Jalen Wilson is not a 3 at the college level no matter how much you want him to play that spot because he's not quick enough to guard perimeter players and doesn't have the handles to be a perimeter based player. He's was 6-8, 215 lbs. on his recruiting profiles with more room to fill out. 6-8, 230ish lbs. is not a wing in college, that's a stretch 4. He have a similar role in the offense that Perry Ellis, Josh Jackson, and Marcus Morris had as face up players who can stretch defenses

Are you fricken serious? - - are you really trying to say you know more then Coach Self? you know I try with you - - I really do - -just seems no matter what or with you ,you just love to debate and seems like you have all the answers to everything.

Are you for real ? - Why do you think Coach went after Jalen as hard as he did - we missed the 1st time - -Coach wanted him - -got lucky things worked out the 2nd time - -do you really think Coach Self recruited this kid to Ku just so he could be buried at the end of the Bench to play the measly 5-7 minutes a Game that you so wisely predict? - Get out of here with that. - -Coach recruited Jalen for a reason - -because of a need - -we have a void at the 3 - -that's EXACTLY why he recruited Jalen - -to fill that void at the 3 - -he sure the hell didn't recruit a top 50 kid to have him come sit with our situation being what it is at the 3 - -he IS NOT going to be sitting at the end of the bench playing water boy. - -you wear me out - with some of your statements - - not only with me but I see with plenty of others here - -I think I put my trust in Coach Self a little more then your wisdom.

He sure isn't as bad of a player as your portraying him out to be - -wanting to compare him with others that aren't even a playing a position that he would ever play - just nutts to try and make comparsions like that. -you just go ahead and believe your theory and I'll take mine - it's America - you have that right. - -I have my right -I'll take recruiting experts opinions over yours though for sure - - people that get to see -- -evaluate - -and who talk with college Coach's about their opinions of players over yours - -sorry that's just how it is - - - Again when you have experts saying the kid was UNDER RANKED under radar - ya I'll believe that a little more - Again Coach didn't recruit him to sit - -you thinkin his recruiting pitch to Jalen he said - hey come on down - - help with water - - dab the floor -w MYA squeeze you in for 5-6 minutes?

he way you talking he is worse then Braun - -McBride - like the 13th player in a 13 team roster - - ya ok you take that and un with it or just sit back and watch - he WILL play the 3 - an be fine -he WILL get more then your 5-7 minutes - - and KU will be fine - - an w WILL go deeper then 7 players even 8 this yr with this roster and we WILL be fine - -you have a great day - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 Bill will play Jalen almost exclusively at the 4, just wait for it.

@BShark traditional 4 or stretch 4/ big version of 4 and 1.

@dylans he is a Marcus/Perry style 4. If he sticks around until he is a JR/SR I could see the offense running through him predominantly.

@BShark It might be a Doke/Dave rotation at the 5, and a Silvio/Jalen/Lightfoot party at the 4. Then you'd have a Marcus/Moss/Agbaji rotation at the 2/3, with Marcus giving Dotson his 3 minutes off every game. Jalen would have more minutes available at the 4 anyway.

@jayballer73 I think he could be very valuable to us at the 4, man. JW allows us to run a 4 out, where we can spread teams out. JW can slay a big on the perimeter. It also pulls congestion out of the paint, and allows Doke to do that voodoo he do so well.

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark It might be a Doke/Dave rotation at the 5, and a Silvio/Jalen/Lightfoot party at the 4. Then you'd have a Marcus/Moss/Agbaji rotation at the 2/3, with Marcus giving Dotson his 3 minutes off every game. Jalen would have more minutes available at the 4 anyway.

If Mitch doesn't RS I think Jalen almost never finds minutes. Tough to say.

Dave and Doke are definitely 5s. Honestly I think Silvio is a 5 too but that's a whole different discussion.

BShark said:

@jayballer73 Bill will play Jalen almost exclusively at the 4, just wait for it.

nope lol

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 I think he could be very valuable to us at the 4, man. JW allows us to run a 4 out, where we can spread teams out. JW can slay a big on the perimeter. It also pulls congestion out of the paint, and allows Doke to do that voodoo he do so well.

According to Texashawk - - he is going to only play 5-7 minutes. - So if he only plays that how is he gonna be very valuable for us lol - -he is getting more then 5-7 minutes - he will get that in his sleep. TexasHawk says not that good of shooter - so how he gonna slay a big lol - - just saying. - In all seriousness buddy I hear you - could happen - hope so. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Nobody thinks McBride will get any mins?

@jayballer73 Cole Aldrich did not play big minutes as a freshman (8 mpg), Thomas Robinson did not play big minutes as a freshman (7 mpg). Jeff Withey did not play big minutes as a freshman or sophomore (3 mpg as a freshman, 6 mpg as a sophomore).

A lack of minutes does not mean a lack of talent. It means a lack of opportunities due to better options already on the roster. And no, Bill Self will not go more than 8 deep once the rotation is settled if he doesn't have to. Self has had to go deeper the past few years because of injuries and eligibility issues that have crept up, but when there are no issues of that nature, Self has never gone beyond an 8 man rotation.

You might want to go do some research on the issue. In years where there's more than 8 players that averaged 10 mpg, look at the games played number as well and see how rotation players missed time due to various issues.

@Crimsonorblue22 Not a lot. Dotson is going to play at least 32-33 mpg again this year (32.4 last season). There's just not many minutes available for him as a back up PG and Marcus Garrett likely gets some of those back up minutes as well.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Nobody thinks McBride will get any mins?

He’ll be around 5 MPG. He’ll have a few games with 10-15 minutes just from foul trouble but he’ll have a bunch of 1-4 minute games and DNP’s. The third PG on the depth chart won’t have many opportunities.

@Crimsonorblue22 I think there is a really good chance McBride gets minutes IF he is a high level ball-handler that can handle D-1 pressure (low TOs) — something we wont know until he does it. Folks regularly underestimate the need for high quality ball-handling. I don’t know how many times I move heard, oh, Selden can play PG, or we could move Relford there, or you name it. I’ve regularly stated my opinion that such talk is just silly and that has always played out that way.

Ball-handling is an irreplaceable, required, high-level skill that can get an otherwise inferior player on the court. It’s a must-have skill. And it can’t be “pretended.”

The key I think is ifSelf thinks that Garrett is a satisfactory stop gap for 8-10 mpg. Garrett, however, is subpar with the ball. Not from a ball protection stand point (like Selden) — Garrett is actually fine there — but he’s slow with the ball, a “tail-dribbler” as my HS coach kindly referred to that type of PG.

Self likes playing fast. Garrett could get those minutes if Self is fine with a slower pace.

If McBride is strong with the ball and not a turnover machine, I could see 8-12 per game.

And let’s not forget, Self loves having more ball handlers on the floor. So if McBride is good, he and Dotson together for stretches is not that far fetched. This could let Dotson get some valuable off ball time.

I don’t think we enough solid info on McBride though to accurately project just yet. But I think we do know what will get him on the court.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Moss is a solid defender, yes, and no one - atleast that I know of - has said that he is better than Dotson or Garrett defensively. He is going to be at times, though, playing alongside both of those guys (I have never knocked Garrett's defense) - that's a pretty solid trio of defenders, and Agbaji won't be no slouch either. This is going to be a good defensive group. Teams are not going to be able to score on us as much this season as last, from outside or in, while we will score more.

I think that Doke, Dotson and Agbaji's averages will go up, ditto for De Sousa who sat out last year and will finally have a full season. Moss will be an improvement over Vick - a no-brainer - who was pretty much absent through the entire Big12 schedule. Dave, McBride and Enaruna will provide some scoring, as well. I know that Wilson will play, too, where and how much remains to be seen - but he'll contribute a few points.

The players that I just named would give us a 10 man rotation, and while Coach hasn't of late been known for using so many guys (out of necessity, due to lack of depth) there was a time that he did, and damn did it ever pay off. I think that this year's team - with all of the interchangeable parts and different skill sets - offers such a possibility. Hell, I didn't even have a chance to get to Mitch (who's defense I love!), Braun (going to be a tough, very good, versatile player) or Harris (a great pick up!).

@Marco Self has never gone more than 8 deep when there's been no injury issues. Even the 2008 title team which was probably the deepest team Self has ever had only had an 8 man rotation. Don't expect that to change starting this year.

!0_1563742881715_D9705443-DE94-434D-9BE3-1CA63479863E.jpeg ↗

CJ’s breakdown seems pretty reasonable to me. He assumes Mitch and Braun RS. I think Moss probably gets a few more and McBride a few less. Probably Doke a few less and Dave a few more as well. Doke probably never will be a guy that can play 27 MPG because of foul trouble and poor FT shooting.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I expect it to change.

FarmerJayhawk said:

!0_1563742881715_D9705443-DE94-434D-9BE3-1CA63479863E.jpeg ↗

CJ’s breakdown seems pretty reasonable to me. He assumes Mitch and Braun RS. I think Moss probably gets a few more and McBride a few less. Probably Doke a few less and Dave a few more as well. Doke probably never will be a guy that can play 27 MPG because of foul trouble and poor FT shooting.

Thank you, Farmer.... And that would be a ten man rotation.

Marco said:

FarmerJayhawk said:

!0_1563742881715_D9705443-DE94-434D-9BE3-1CA63479863E.jpeg ↗

CJ’s breakdown seems pretty reasonable to me. He assumes Mitch and Braun RS. I think Moss probably gets a few more and McBride a few less. Probably Doke a few less and Dave a few more as well. Doke probably never will be a guy that can play 27 MPG because of foul trouble and poor FT shooting.

Thank you, Farmer.... And that would be a ten man rotation.

Might be semantics, but that’s an 8 man rotation. I don’t consider anyone who averages under 10 MPG in the rotation.

@FarmerJayhawk Doke's mpg seems about right. I think he does play around 27 mpg and I think Silvio and Dave's minutes are low though. I think all 3 of them between 25-30 mpg. I think Silvio could possibly top 30 mpg. Silvio and Dave are both good enough FT shooters that pulling Doke in those crunch time moments shouldn't be a big deal.

@Marco Why would Bill Self suddenly change from 16 years of history and habits? And no, that projection is not a 10 man rotation, it's still an 8 man rotation. For clarity's sake, a rotation level player is someone who typically plays 10+ mpg, not less. Tristan Enaruna at 3-7 mpg is not rotation level minutes. That's him getting spot minutes because of foul issues or someone needing a quick breather before a TV timeout.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I can’t see all 3 at 25-30. There’s only 80 available at the 4 and 5 and 25 each would leave only 5 for Wilson and/or Enaruna at the 4. I agree that Silvio could push 30 since he’s the only that can play both spots. Last year Doke was around 23, 24 the year before. I don’t think he goes over 25 given Silvio and Dave are both better FT shooters.

HighEliteMajor said:

@Crimsonorblue22 I think there is a really good chance McBride gets minutes IF he is a high level ball-handler that can handle D-1 pressure (low TOs) — something we wont know until he does it. Folks regularly underestimate the need for high quality ball-handling. I don’t know how many times I move heard, oh, Selden can play PG, or we could move Relford there, or you name it. I’ve regularly stated my opinion that such talk is just silly and that has always played out that way.

Ball-handling is an irreplaceable, required, high-level skill that can get an otherwise inferior player on the court. It’s a must-have skill. And it can’t be “pretended.”

The key I think is ifSelf thinks that Garrett is a satisfactory stop gap for 8-10 mpg. Garrett, however, is subpar with the ball. Not from a ball protection stand point (like Selden) — Garrett is actually fine there — but he’s slow with the ball, a “tail-dribbler” as my HS coach kindly referred to that type of PG.

Self likes playing fast. Garrett could get those minutes if Self is fine with a slower pace.

If McBride is strong with the ball and not a turnover machine, I could see 8-12 per game.

And let’s not forget, Self loves having more ball handlers on the floor. So if McBride is good, he and Dotson together for stretches is not that far fetched. This could let Dotson get some valuable off ball time.

I don’t think we enough solid info on McBride though to accurately project just yet. But I think we do know what will get him on the court.

If this is the path to pt then Harris might surprise if he is good to go academically. He is a rock with the ball.

@FarmerJayhawk Doke is going to be the focal point of the offense this year which means he'll see an increase in minutes this year. Last year, Lawson was the focal point of the offense and the year before that was Mason. If Doke was a good FT shooter, I would've said he'd get north of 30 mpg because he's that impactful on both ends of the floor. An increased role in the offense means Doke'll get an increase in minutes as well.

Silvio is by far the best rebounder among those 3 and the best defender because he can guard both post positions. I think Silvio's defense is where we'll see the immediate improvement from all of the scout team stuff he did last year. If Silvio worked on his range during the year off and can hit a spot up 3, that's a game changer for the offense because it brings the high-low back in a very prominent way. Silvio's FT shooting numbers in his limited minutes suggests he has the form to extend his range.

Dave can play both post spots because he does have a mid range game. With Dave being a poor rebounder for his though, I think he probably plays the 4 most of the time he's in because Some and Silvio are the better traditional style post players.

It could end up being more like 30-25-20 with Silvio-Doke-Dave in that order for minutes which I think most people would be okay with.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@Marco Self has never gone more than 8 deep when there's been no injury issues. Even the 2008 title team which was probably the deepest team Self has ever had only had an 8 man rotation. Don't expect that to change starting this year.

you'll see 8-9 players with quality minutes this year

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@FarmerJayhawk Doke's mpg seems about right. I think he does play around 27 mpg and I think Silvio and Dave's minutes are low though. I think all 3 of them between 25-30 mpg. I think Silvio could possibly top 30 mpg. Silvio and Dave are both good enough FT shooters that pulling Doke in those crunch time moments shouldn't be a big deal.

@Marco Why would Bill Self suddenly change from 16 years of history and habits? And no, that projection is not a 10 man rotation, it's still an 8 man rotation. For clarity's sake, a rotation level player is someone who typically plays 10+ mpg, not less. Tristan Enaruna at 3-7 mpg is not rotation level minutes. That's him getting spot minutes because of foul issues or someone needing a quick breather before a TV timeout.

did you happen to see Jalen's projected minutes? - - like I was saying - he gonna get quality minutes - this is even higher for me - -still saying 12-14 minutes a game - - not 5-7 like you trying to say. - -Watch.

@jayballer73 8 maybe, 9 no, unless you want to keep ignoring 16 years of history. Only way 9+ players get 10+ mpg will be because of injuries just any other season that has seen 9+ players in that range.

Ignoring that I think those minutes projections were low for Silvio and Dave and high for Wilson, did you happen to notice that minutes projection for Wilson fit with him being a 4 and not 3 like you keep thinking will happen?

@Texas-Hawk-10 Doke was still the focal point last season when he was available. Self said we still were playing through Doke and he had a higher usage rate than Dedric. Doke is what he is. He’ll be about 13/7/2 and shoot a stupid percentage. And he’ll be a frustratingly poor rebounder for his size. He and Dave have very similar career rebounding rates.

I’ll be really surprised if Dave plays much, if any 4. Self has almost never played 2 not quick bigs together. Closest parallel I can think of is Joel and Tarik, who almost never played together. Jamari got almost all the backup 4 minutes (he actually played more than Tarik that year.) He’s much preferred a guy with some skill and quickness (e.g. Shady, Perry, Billy, Dedric). So it would be a big trend break for Bill to go down that road. And I don’t think Dave can guard many 4’s. He’s just not quick enough laterally. If Bill sticks to form, he’ll play Jalen or Tristan at the backup 4. Dave exclusively at the 5.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 8 maybe, 9 no, unless you want to keep ignoring 16 years of history. Only way 9+ players get 10+ mpg will be because of injuries just any other season that has seen 9+ players in that range.

Ignoring that I think those minutes projections were low for Silvio and Dave and high for Wilson, did you happen to notice that minutes projection for Wilson fit with him being a 4 and not 3 like you keep thinking will happen?

super he can play at both - -and will for sure - -thus there is your 13 minutes but you have wore this out you just hold fast with your thought - & I'm gonna stay fast with mine - -there will be 9 players with quality minutes - -staying put with that too Watch

FarmerJayhawk said:

@Texas-Hawk-10 Doke was still the focal point last season when he was available. Self said we still were playing through Doke and he had a higher usage rate than Dedric. Doke is what he is. He’ll be about 13/7/2 and shoot a stupid percentage. And he’ll be a frustratingly poor rebounder for his size. He and Dave have very similar career rebounding rates.

I’ll be really surprised if Dave plays much, if any 4. Self has almost never played 2 not quick bigs together. Closest parallel I can think of is Joel and Tarik, who almost never played together. Jamari got almost all the backup 4 minutes (he actually played more than Tarik that year.) He’s much preferred a guy with some skill and quickness (e.g. Shady, Perry, Billy, Dedric). So it would be a big trend break for Bill to go down that road. And I don’t think Dave can guard many 4’s. He’s just not quick enough laterally. If Bill sticks to form, he’ll play Jalen or Tristan at the backup 4. Dave exclusively at the 5.

ya I just don't see Dave playing any 4 either - I think he is a true 5

@FarmerJayhawk I think you'll be surprised there. Dave keeps working on his body and I think that's a big part of why Self said Dave has stood out so much this off-season. Dave has an offensive game similar to T-Rob and T-Rob played a lot of 4 for KU, particularly in 2012 playing next to Withey.

I'm not saying Dave plays exclusively at the 4, but his athleticism and mid range abilities are the best among himself, Doke, and DeSousa at this time (at least that we're aware of since Silvio is still a question mark on that end) and because of that, I think we'll see Dave mostly play the 4 on offense and guard the 4 spot when he's on the floor with Doke and guard the 5 spot when he's out there with Silvio.

BTW, the usage rate for Doke and Dedric last season was very close, Doke was 30% and Dedric was 29.1% so not a significant difference.

@jayballer73 David McCormack will play more at the 4 this season than Jalen Wilson will at the 3.

And no, David McCormack is not a true 5, he's a traditional style 4. At the college level, most traditional 4's do play the 5 because true 5's are an endangered species in modern basketball. In Self's time at KU, he's only had four true 5's come through the program. Sasha Kaun, Jeff Withey, Joel Embiid, and currently Udoka Azubuike. Other's who have manned that spot have typically been traditional style 4's playing alongside a stretch 4.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jayballer73 David McCormack will play more at the 4 this season than Jalen Wilson will at the 3.

And no, David McCormack is not a true 5, he's a traditional style 4. At the college level, most traditional 4's do play the 5 because true 5's are an endangered species in modern basketball. In Self's time at KU, he's only had four true 5's come through the program. Sasha Kaun, Jeff Withey, Joel Embiid, and currently Udoka Azubuike. Other's who have manned that spot have typically been traditional style 4's playing alongside a stretch 4.

you need to just stop - - just stop - you wear me out - -I think sometimes that - - ehhh never mind - -I'm through - have a great night - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Texas-Hawk-10 I like Dave a lot, but there’s no way he’s a better athlete than Silvio and he’s not the defender T-Rob was. You say we don’t really know what we have in Silvio, but you’re making a lot of assumptions about Dave’s development. The coaches have also said Silvio has developed a good midrange game. And we already know what kind of athlete he is. McCormack has never shown even average athleticism for a 4. How many guys universally scouted as a center played the 4 for Self? If McCormack is different, how so?

All I said it was higher. Because I looked it up. I haven’t analyzed it to see its significance level.

@jayballer73 You have to look past the way he frames the issue and read his salient point. Yes, it would be nice if he learned some phrases like ..."my opinion is" or " I believe", but that said, he is a passionate KU fan, and he participates heavily on the boards. And he is pretty damn sharp in his analysis....

I will say this - if Jalen Wilson can play some minutes as a stretch 4 type player, that could open up things for Marcus Garrett at the 3 in something resembling a functional offense. Because of his style of play, Garrett needs to be on the floor with as many shooters/ floor spacers as possible. Even if Wilson only plays 14 or so minutes, if most of those are as a stretch 4 with Garrett and either Doke or Silvio on the floor, that will be a solid lineup.

This roster is going to take a lot of mixing and matching because just about every player has unique strengths and weaknesses.

Also, my earlier posts about Moss aren't to say he won't be a good player. I think he will be. But I also think everyone has to be prepared for the 0-5's as much as the 6-8's. There will be nights where he will score less than 5 points. On those nights (6 such games in conference play last year, including three games where he scored 0 points), someone else has to step up on the perimeter. There will be other nights where he gets 15+ (4 games like that in conference, including a couple of 20+ point games), where we will be able to afford an off night from someone else. Moss will average 10-12 points by mixing 20 point games with 2 point games. He's not a guy that you write in his points before the night starts like Dedric was last year.

@FarmerJayhawk A 0.9% difference at those levels is negligible. It essentially amounts to one more play run through Doke every 2-3 games. This year, I wouldn't be shocked if Doke's usage rate goes up to the 35% range.

The biggest reason I think Dave can play some 4 on offense this year is because of his continued weight loss and reshaping of his body. We know that's something he's dedicated to and has the work ethic off the court to do what he needs to do. The next step in the process is increasing his flexible which will increase his athleticism to the point that he won't be overmatched against most 4's.

I don't think he'll play extended minutes with Doke, maybe 5 or so per game and probably 15 or so alongside Silvio. I really don't think matters which one of Doke or Silvio he's out there with, I think he'll be the 4 on the offensive end of the floor doing what T-Rob did when he played next to Withey. 2011-12 T-Rob is the offensive blueprint for McCormack this year. The benefit of that is his mid range can pull a defender away from the paint which opens up driving lanes for the guards and slows down the time to double Doke. If he can hit a top of the key 3, that also opens up the paint. This is why it's also important for Silvio to develop that shot as well.

On defense, because I don't think Dave will spend much time alongside Doke, I don't think Dave guarding a 4 for a few minutes a game is going to be an issue. If Dave progresses enough to where he can consistently guard opposing 4's while he's playing with Silvio, that hides his rebounding weaknesses and would allow Silvio to clean up on the glass.

@Texas-Hawk-10 The differences between T-Rob and Dave are pretty stark. T-Rob was always known as a really bouncy, high motor athlete and that didn't change once he put on good weight at KU. Dave is athletically challenged. Almost every scout has commented he's an absolute liability defending away from the basket, where Robinson was not. Even when he gets his body right, he still won't be even an average athlete for the 4 spot. He's much, much better in the paint. We won't be able to switch much of anything with both he and Doke out there. The one thing he would be able to do is make the entry pass in the high low. And that's it. That's all he's got as a 4 man.

I don't buy the 2012 parallel for a few reasons. First is Withey was much more mobile than Doke, and could knock down the occasional midrange jumper if need be. Doke can't hit anything from outside the paint. T-Rob was also a fierce rebounder where Withey wasn't. McCormack and Withey actually had similar percentages in 18-19 and 11-12. If anything, McCormack is more like Withey than T-Rob. Had some touch for a center, not a great rebounder, but Dave isn't really a shot blocker, he was about the same as Dedric last year in block %. If anyone on the squad this year should look at Thomas's tape and try to emulate him, it's Silvio. Both have similar builds and skillsets. Thomas and Dave are really far apart. I think Dave's ceiling is a pretty skilled but athletically limited 5 with a really good motor. Nothing like Thomas. Silvio on the other hand has an elite motor and rebounding skills to go along with very good athleticism and not a lot of skill on offense. At least not that we've seen yet, but he did have a reputation of having a developing offensive skillset at IMG.

I think Wilson is the better option as the backup 4. He's obviously much more skilled offensively than McCormack, is an above average athlete for a 4, and still has the size to not get worked by a lot of 4's. And he can space the floor to allow Dotson and Garrett to drive. It would be breaking tendency for Self to cut his big rotation to 3 if he has the bodies to play 4. I can see some Perry Ellis in Wilson's game, which Bill loves.

@FarmerJayhawk I'm not comparing the athleticism of Dave and T-Rob because T-Rob is the better athlete. That doesn't mean you can't look at a year when someone with T-Rob's size was used as a 4 because of having the less athletic and mobile Jeff Withey playing along side him and use some of those sets on offense with Dave and Doke. It doesn't mean you run the entire 2012 playbook because Doke can't do a lot of things that Withey could do.

Based on the camp scrimmage footage out there, Dave looked more athletic than last season. Those scouting reports on Dave's athleticism are mostly from his HS time when he was still out of shape and pushing 300 lbs. The difference in Dave between the McDonald's game and when the season started was significant and he looked much better in November than he did in April. Dave said during those summer camps in June that he was down to 260 lbs., I wouldn't be shocked if he's down to 250-255 lbs. when this season starts.

Again, I don't think Dave and Doke play more than about 5 minutes or so together so it's not like I'm advocating extended minutes from those two together and Self doesn't do a lot of switching outside the end of the shot clock anyway so I don't see that being a big issue with those two playing limited minutes together. With Dave and Silvio together, they should each be able to spread the floor and be interchangeable in offensive sets when together. Because Silvio is the better rebounder, that's why I think Dave would play more away from the basket than Silvio will because it will mask Dave's weaknesses on the glass while allowing Silvio to clean up the boards.

As for Wilson as a stretch 4, Ellis is the comparison. Wilson is an average at best athlete like Ellis, he's a below average rebounder like Ellis for his size, he's not a great shooter (sub 40% from 3 every year), so probably won't be anything more than about 30% from 3 this season and not giving defenders a reason to guard him close on the perimeter. He so doesn't have great handles so when he drives, he'll probably get the ball poked away quite a bit. The one area I think Wilson is better out of the gate than Ellis is his vertical. Ellis was always a below the rim player and Wilson has enough hops to be able to eventually finish through contact.

@FarmerJayhawk Yeah, anything under ten minutes doesn't count.

@Texas-Hawk-10 By whose definition? Not mine. I say that if someone plays 3 or 10 minutes a game then those minutes count. Unless, ofcourse, we are not going to count their points, rebounds, assists, whatever. But that's fine, you and whoever else can if you want to call it an eight man rotation while Bill plays ten or eleven guys every game.

KUSTEVE said:

@jayballer73 You have to look past the way he frames the issue and read his salient point. Yes, it would be nice if he learned some phrases like ..."my opinion is" or " I believe", but that said, he is a passionate KU fan, and he participates heavily on the boards. And he is pretty damn sharp in his analysis....

True, and I remember him coming to Coach Marco's defense during the beer drenched Marcus Garrett debate, Lol!

@Marco You'll notice if you look at those players who average less than 10 mpg typically don't play every game. They will typically have some DNP's throughout the season. Even if a player averages 7-8 mpg, if they don't play every game, they aren't a rotation player. They're a player whose minutes are dictated by stuff like foul trouble or giving someone a breather before a TV timeout to get that rotation player a couple extra minutes of a break in real time.

Playing 3 minutes in a game because someone picked up their second foul before halftime doesn't make that player a rotation player.

Marco said:

@FarmerJayhawk Yeah, anything under ten doesn't count.

As far as being a rotation guy, <10 MPG with multiple DNP-CD's doesn't count.

@BShark I don't see Coach really wanting to play slow this year.

@FarmerJayhawk I don't think Dave will play alot of 4, either. He looked, at times, somewhat clumsy out there (maybe due to his motor) this past season. We'll see.

Marco said:

@FarmerJayhawk I don't see Dave playing alot of 4, either. He looked, at times, somewhat clumsy out there last (maybe just due to his motor) year. We'll see.

I think a lot of that had to do with how rapidly he’s transformed his body. Check out an Oak Hill game from his senior year vs. late in the year last year. Give Dave a ton of credit because like Tex said, he’s gone from 300+ to 260 and pretty cut.

@Marco @FarmerJayhawk I was impressed with how Dave was coming along by the end of the year. He was moving quite well defensively.

@FarmerJayhawk Hey, I'm not knocking Dave. You may be right. He is going to be vital this year.

FarmerJayhawk said:

Marco said:

@FarmerJayhawk I don't see Dave playing alot of 4, either. He looked, at times, somewhat clumsy out there last (maybe just due to his motor) year. We'll see.

I think a lot of that had to do with how rapidly he’s transformed his body. Check out an Oak Hill game from his senior year vs. late in the year last year. Give Dave a ton of credit because like Tex said, he’s gone from 300+ to 260 and pretty cut.

You may be on to something there.

BShark said:

@Marco @FarmerJayhawk I was impressed with how Dave was coming along by the end of the year. He was moving quite well defensively.

True. He was much better by the end of the year, including being in position

The best thing about Freshman is they become Sophomores.

Marco said:

@FarmerJayhawk I don't think Dave will play alot of 4, either. He looked, at times, somewhat clumsy out there (maybe due to his motor) this past season. We'll see.

Been hearing quite a bit about Dave this off season. - -I am pretty sure - -getting old mind you but seems like not that long ago - there was an interview with Coach - -ask who the most improved player had been in the off season - - His response?

David McCormack hands down he said - -pretty sure I remember that - -anyone else remember seeing that? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

jayballer73 said:

Marco said:

@FarmerJayhawk I don't think Dave will play alot of 4, either. He looked, at times, somewhat clumsy out there (maybe due to his motor) this past season. We'll see.

Been hearing quite a bit about Dave this off season. - -I am pretty sure - -getting old mind you but seems like not that long ago - there was an interview with Coach - -ask who the most improved player had been in the off season - - His response?

David McCormack hands down he said - -pretty sure I remember that - -anyone else remember seeing that? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Yeah, I remember that @jayballer73 and believe him. If that guy, Big Dave, will be able to this season play both the 5 and 4 THEN LOOK OUT!

Bill Self said Dedric is the best passer we have ever had and that Q was a stud guard.

Also who could forget Merv Lindsay?

“He has great potential and has the ability to help us this season. He is a very athletic wing who is a good shooter. Like all the incoming freshmen we have, as Merv gets stronger, he will continue to develop.”

And I like Dave a lot, it's just hard to take offseason Bill seriously. He says a lot of crazy things.

@Texas-Hawk-10

You are right to tamper down PT minutes expectations. I think it can be safe to say that if we have 10 guys getting a lot of shared minutes, we are having some sour play and Self is looking for someone to step forward.

But I do think most of our freshmen he prizes will get a few minutes. Enough to keep them wanting to stay at Kansas. These days are not like the good ol' days, where players would wait patiently for some minutes they would earn. There are record transfers and Bill is aware of it and tries to keep his troops happy. I venture to say that when he does lose a player he isn't too sad about it and probably agrees with the player that he needs to move on.

I usually agree pretty close to Bill's distribution of minutes. Occasionally, I'd like to see a few guys get more minutes for future development sake. I can't realistically argue too much with a HOFr coach. Who the heck am I?

Dave was super spastic early on. He looked like he was riding a bull with no hands half the time. After he settled down late in the season, he looked pretty good. I’m hopeful he can continue that trajectory of rapid improvement. Big 12 first team 2020.

dylans said:

Dave was super spastic early on. He looked like he was riding a bull with no hands half the time. After he settled down late in the season, he looked pretty good. I’m hopeful he can continue that trajectory of rapid improvement. Big 12 first team 2020.

Good question..... Who will the Jayhawks offer as Big12 1st, 2nd or 3rd team?