🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Genuinely curious if anyone here thinks Trump is NOT guilty.

And if so, what is your reasoning?

I'm genuinely curious to hear from people whom I respect and who aren't in the toxic twittersphere. I won't even respond, other than perhaps questions or clarifications.

I certainly won't try and convince anyone beyond this post.

I just want to understand how after today's testimony that there is any doubt that Trump attempted to have Ukraine manufacture an investigation into Joe Biden's son. A man who paid $1M to Trump's inaugural fund, who was not a career bureaucrat, who was hand-picked by Trump to be the EU Ambassador, straight up said that there was a Quid Pro Quo.

Even if you completely take out the aid from the scenario, what you are left with is a President using the power of the office and show of U.S. support to benefit him in the 2020 election by investigating a political rival.

Even if you take both the aid and the White House meeting away, you still have a President asking a foreign government for a political favor. And we know it is a political favor because it is not "stated policy" as every single official who has testified so far has told us.

I'm not telling you that I think the Biden's are innocent. Or that they didn't at the very least walked a line down an ethical path they shouldn't have (and nobody should). But nepotism is something that both parties are currently guilty of at the moment. Even without the President's children in the equation, you have a Romney as head of the RNC, Rudy Giuliani's son is in the White House, the Bush family, Clintons, Chafees, Pauls, Huckabee, etc.

So to call out Nepotism as the key driver, with literally no other evidence of wrong-doing, is funny to me. They would be able to tell if he did something wrong that broke U.S. laws. One call to the IRS would be able to tell you if he didn't claim this income on his taxes. And if he broke a Ukrainian law, well that is their business. Not ours.

It doesn't even touch on the way in which they went about "investigating" Hunter Biden. It was a completely inappropriate channel. As was testified to, there are treaties and procedures put in place for this exact sort of a thing. This did not follow that procedure.

The last thing I'll say: I do not think anyone should be okay with this. I truly do fear the power that future President's will feel they have if we allow this to go unchecked.

(Again, I will not respond critically. Simply will ask questions for clarification or respond to anything I believe may not be an accurate "fact" and we can try to come to a consensus on that).

I am the least qualified person, maybe in the world to talk about politics. I don't follow it, I don't understand it and (I'm not un-american) I can't stand politics.

Having said that, I have always had a problem with Donald Trump - waaaaaaaay before he was President. Now he just embarrasses me. And hopefully this country.

nuleafjhawk said:

I am the least qualified person, maybe in the world to talk about politics. I don't follow it, I don't understand it and (I'm not un-american) I can't stand politics.

Having said that, I have always had a problem with Donald Trump - waaaaaaaay before he was President. Now he just embarrasses me. And hopefully this country.

I really didn't follow politics until the 2016 election cycle. Something about it just seemed like DJT was making history one way or another. Either he was going to be the Patriotic Businessman who put America back on a path to greatness or we would end up right where we are now. I definitely knew it wasn't going to be normal and ultimately end up being historic.

Donald Trump is a fat tick riding on the underbelly of an aging Republic, sucking all the way.

It’s all a waste of time and money IMO. Every politician is dirty, thats why I dislike them all. Trump probably did something he shouldn’t have and the Biden family looks to be deeply involved in some shady dealings. The democrats are trying everything possible to get trump out because he wins easily in 2020.

kjayhawks said:

It’s all a waste of time and money IMO. Every politician is dirty, thats why I dislike them all. Trump probably did something he shouldn’t have and the Biden family looks to be deeply involved in some shady dealings. The democrats are trying everything possible to get trump out because he wins easily in 2020.

Why do you say he wins easily in 2020?

Louisiana and Kentucky just had the governorship go blue. First time in a very long time that Virginia state council went blue. Meaning they get to redistrict the state and they can change election districts which tips the scales.

Have you watched any of the hearings or read any testimonies or opening statements?

@Kcmatt7 I much like my good friend @nuleafjhawk dont waste time watching that jazz. Didn’t Virginia vote in a convicted felon for indecent liberties with a child and child pornography?

@kjayhawks short answer: no, that's not true at all. Long answer: Mccauliffe reinstated voting rights for felons, one of whom was that guy who ran for office and dropped out. He was able to run because his voting rights were restored. Longer answer: you got that spin story from Fox News or some derivate. I know this because it's such a wild stretch that only Fox News comes up when I search for what you said. Seriously SMH at Fox on this one: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pedophile-can-run-for-office-in-virginia-thanks-to-mcauliffe-decision-restoring-felons-rights ↗
This kind of partisan misinformation is malicious and repugnant.

Your answer to @Kcmatt7 's question illustrates a big problem. As long as people are willing to take hook line and sinker what Fox wants them to believe without any fact checking, and as long as Trump's shameless allies in the House and Senate stonewall, the voters on the right won't acknowledge that Trump is guilty, nor the gravity of his actions. They'll continue to repeat some goose chase counter narrative about Hunter Biden they've been led on.

kjayhawks said:

@Kcmatt7 I much like my good friend @nuleafjhawk dont waste time watching that jazz. Didn’t Virginia vote in a convicted felon for indecent liberties with a child and child pornography?

What are you doing that you can’t turn them on in the background?

I truly implore all people to listen to these hearings if at all possible. I haven’t listened to every second, but I’ve listened to as much as possible given my schedule.

Form your own opinion based on the testimonies. Don’t get your info second hand when you can get it first.

Whether he is ousted or not, this truly is a historical moment in our country.

@approxinfinity that’s why I was asking but if you google his name it says he was convicted for fooling around with a 17 year old. I don’t watch any news, just saw something about it on Facebook lol.

@kjayhawks the question isn't whether the guy did something or not (we believe that he did). The question is whether he was elected (no, he didn't even make it on the ballot). Details matter to me, especially when you're suggesting that my great home state of Virginia elected a pedophile.

It's a good point that you didn't hear this spin on Fox but rather Facebook. Did you see where Elizabeth Warren posted a political ad on Facebook falsely saying Mark Zuckerberg endorses Donald Trump? I thought this was a pretty brilliant trolling by her team. Misinformation and echo chambers are alive and well on Facebook.

@approxinfinity didn’t see that but Facebook is 99% BS lol

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/support-flips-against-impeachment-as-trump-approval-rating-jumps-poll/ar-BBXab1N?ocid=ientp ↗

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/ ↗

I think saying that support has flipped against impeachment may not be accurate, but it has narrowed.

It was always about flipping Republicans and convincing them.

That clearly didn’t happen despite fact witnesses spelling out what happened In a remarkably consistent fashion and one man literally admitting to it.

This is America now. Disinformation is rampant. The truth is lost. And nobody is willing to believe anything but what makes them happy.

Until we get someone in power that cares about cracking down on our own government systems and we can get honest people in politics again we won’t have a true democracy.

The irony of this entire thing, we could take a few notes from Zelensky and the Ukrainians. They are tired of corruption, and they demanded to have accountability at the highest levels. Something that looks so incredibly distant for the U.S. in the current political climate.

HighEliteMajor said:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/support-flips-against-impeachment-as-trump-approval-rating-jumps-poll/ar-BBXab1N?ocid=ientp ↗

Gaging my current circle, this appears to be true. People are tired of caring this much about politics. It’s just so incredibly hard to pay attention to for an extended period of time. It appears the Republican strategy of getting people to not pay attention and writing this off as a “hoax” largely worked.

@Kcmatt7 Big issue is the unanswered attack ads by Republicans. I believe when the Democrats open up with their own ads about presidential impropriety we might see the numbers change again.

Think about how clearly the facts could be shown in an ad reaching anyone.

I haven't pulled numbers on the ads being run atm so this is anecdotal.

I’d love to see Hunter Biden and Nunes now both testify.

Give us the entire story.

Kcmatt7 said:

I’d love to see Hunter Biden and Nunes now both testify.

Give us the entire story.

Along with Bolton and Pompeo and Guliani

Kcmatt7 said:

Kcmatt7 said:

I’d love to see Hunter Biden and Nunes now both testify.

Give us the entire story.

Along with Bolton and Pompeo and Guliani

And Mulvaney

@Kcmatt7 sounds like you are so nervous about 2020 that you are out there beating the drum for the DNC trying to change opinions of independent minded individuals who clearly can think for themselves. The guy(Adam Schiff) running the hearings lies about meeting and coaching Joe Biden's ally(AKA Whistleblower). The same guy who said for 2 years that he had concrete evidence that trump colluded with the Russians 🤣, evidence Robert Mueller and a squad of Democrat lawyers & $35 million in tax payer funds couldn't uncover. We are supposed to trust Schiff and his allies are being honest with us after what they put every American through. Now he's doing everything he can to hide the so-called "Whistleblower" from testifying. Even though he doesn't qualify as a Whistleblower underneath the Whistleblower Statute. When every witness who testified publicly, and questioned if they had any direct knowledge or evidence to support a crime was committed, they all said emphatically NO. Even Sondland had to walk back quid pro quo live during the hearings. Judges have already domestically ruled that a meeting isn't a thing of value. So we can't stop throwing that out there like it carries any weight. Hearsay, gossip, and unsubstantiated presumptions don't constitute viable evidence to remove a duly elected President. Hating someone so vehemently doesn't make your argument anymore compelling either.

This is coming from someone who voted for Obama first term. Before realizing I was voting to penalize myself for being a younger healthy U.S. citizen. Let everyone testify, even those Democrats and the White House have prevented from testifying. If any substantiated evidence is derived from that to support your emphatic position the president has committed high crimes so egregious we need to remove him from office... then we'll cross that road when we get there. Until then we aren't even close to meeting that bar.

madmaxKU said:

@Kcmatt7 sounds like you are so nervous about 2020 that you are out there beating the drum for the DNC trying to change opinions of independent minded individuals who clearly can think for themselves. The guy(Adam Schiff) running the hearings lies about meeting and coaching Joe Biden's ally(AKA Whistleblower). The same guy who said for 2 years that he had concrete evidence that trump colluded with the Russians 🤣, evidence Robert Mueller and a squad of Democrat lawyers & $35 million in tax payer funds couldn't uncover. We are supposed to trust Schiff and his allies are being honest with us after what they put every American through. Now he's doing everything he can to hide the so-called "Whistleblower" from testifying. Even though he doesn't qualify as a Whistleblower underneath the Whistleblower Statute. When every witness who testified publicly, and questioned if they had any direct knowledge or evidence to support a crime was committed, they all said emphatically NO. Even Sondland had to walk back quid pro quo live during the hearings. Judges have already domestically ruled that a meeting isn't a thing of value. So we can't stop throwing that out there like it carries any weight. Hearsay, gossip, and unsubstantiated presumptions don't constitute viable evidence to remove a duly elected President. Hating someone so vehemently doesn't make your argument anymore compelling either.

This is coming from someone who voted for Obama first term. Before realizing I was voting to penalize myself for being a younger healthy U.S. citizen. Let everyone testify, even those Democrats and the White House have prevented from testifying. If any substantiated evidence is derived from that to support your emphatic position the president has committed high crimes so egregious we need to remove him from office... then we'll cross that road when we get there. Until then we aren't even close to meeting that bar.

Yes I came to site of 50 to talk about this because I’m nervous.

If I know anything about this site, there’s no changing someone’s mind lol.

@Kcmatt7 when most people in America are laughing or completely uninterested in what you and Schiff are selling... yes I actually do think you have some nerves to work through 😂 And there you go making another assumption and conclusion on how everyone thinks or should think on this site. Idk @Kcmatt7 What should I eat tomorrow morning to honor the constitution?

@madmaxKU Where have you been the past 2 years? You are certainly eloquent, so I am surprised you have only started posting again in this politics forum. The adidas clusterf--- could have used some interesting observations.

@mayjay Thanks for the kind words. I had been taking care of my dad, a 3rd generation Jayhawk from Russell, KS the last couple years. His battle with bad health ended a month ago. I had been hiding myself from a lot of things, but now I feel emboldened to put myself back out there socially. I haven't been able to watch any of the games except for the Duke game which was a bummer haha. Once I'm able to watch the game tonight and others that follow, I will start contributing my two cents and participate more in all the great discussions started on this board. I've been an entertained spectator the past 2 years though.

madmaxKU said:

@Kcmatt7 when most people in America are laughing or completely uninterested in what you and Schiff are selling... yes I actually do think you have some nerves to work through 😂 And there you go making another assumption and conclusion on how everyone thinks or should think on this site. Idk @Kcmatt7 What should I eat tomorrow morning to honor the constitution?

Eggs Benedict seems appropriate at the moment.

And the surveys – from Quinnipiac and Monmouth University – overall indicate little movement in the minds of Americans on impeachment and on Trump’s approval rating over the past month. This, following dramatic public hearings by the House Intelligence and Judiciary Committees that culminated Tuesday with Democrats unveiling impeachment articles alleging Trump abused the power of his office and obstructed the congressional investigation into his alleged wrongdoing.

According to the Monmouth poll – which was released Wednesday – 50 percent said the president should not be impeached and removed from office, with 45 percent calling for impeachment and removal from the White House. The numbers are little changed from Monmouth’s November poll, when a 51-44 percent majority opposed impeachment and removal.

It’s a similar story in the Quinnipiac survey, which was released on Tuesday. By a 51-45 percent margin, Americans opposed impeaching and removing the president, little changed from the school’s late November poll.

Im still waiting for the facts? All I’ve seen is hear say and perception? Let’s not forget Trump Released the transcripts Of the call. What we debating?

Be honest? If this was a Dem would you libs and socialist be on board with impeachment? Would you think the evidence presented be good enough to impeach one of your own?

Would you be here posting they have to go?

Will you vote for biden? Who’s son obviously got some serious money being the son of a VP.

Oh for the record we all know how this impeachment will turnout. Yet man our Jayhawks are tough this year. Really tough. Rock Chalk

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/support-to-oust-trump-weakens-sharply-microsoft-news-poll-finds/ar-BBY5ALC?ocid=ientp ↗

I wonder why?

Because the American people are tired of bullshit, regardless of who is responsible.

approxinfinity said:

Because the American people are tired of bullshit, regardless of who is responsible?

It's Christmas.

Pelosi handled this really well. She had to thread a needle in protecting her vulnerable members and placating her left flank. Now Cocaine Mitch does what he does best. Steamroll Schumer on procedure and the Senate will acquit.

The one thing she CANNOT do is some gambit in withholding the articles to try to get some concessions on witnesses in the Senate. Cocaine Mitch isn’t budging and has the numbers to acquit no matter what so it really doesn’t matter. Get this off the plate ASAP to protect her endangered members.

The House shoulde have amended to censure, not subject to Senate action. Dems are excited to be committing electoral suicide. Oh well, it is a movie I have seen a dozen times before.

By 2119, no one alive will care anymore.

@mayjay explain, please.

@FarmerJayhawk I thought he was Moscow Mitch.

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@FarmerJayhawk I thought he was Moscow Mitch.

Nah !long live Cocaine Mitch ↗

@Crimsonorblue22 I just think the Dems are working hard to please their fringe with impeachment despite it being virtually hopeless in the Senate, with their candidates fragmented so much that there is no cohesive Dem msg for 2020. The country desperately wants legislation to solve infrastructure and medical costs, while the Dem's have spent untold hours in a virtual circle jerk chanting "we hate the Donald".

In a fair Senate, he would be tossed out because he is the most corrupt prez in history, but it isn't a fair Senate. The House should have denounced his actions and moved on to be the chamber proving it can govern rather than just spasming every time DJT did another horrible thing.

The election will be won in the minds of swing voters. With only 45 to 50% of voters agreeing on impeachment, the Dems have not been making any rational appeal as to why they should get the votes.

But the last sentence in my other post is simply a paraphrase of John Kenneth Galbreath's "In the long run, we will all be dead." I still believe the country will survive, all the current nitwits running it notwithstanding.

mayjay said:

@Crimsonorblue22 I just think the Dems are working hard to please their fringe with impeachment despite it being virtually hopeless in the Senate, with their candidates fragmented so much that there is no cohesive Dem msg for 2020. The country desperately wants legislation to solve infrastructure and medical costs, while the Dem's have spent untold hours in a virtual circle jerk chanting "we hate the Donald".

In a fair Senate, he would be tossed out because he is the most corrupt prez in history, but it isn't a fair Senate. The House should have denounced his actions and moved on to be the chamber proving it can govern rather than just spasming every time DJT did another horrible thing.

The election will be won in the minds of swing voters. With only 45 to 50% of voters agreeing on impeachment, the Dems have not been making any rational appeal as to why they should get the votes.

But the last sentence in my other post is simply a paraphrase of John Kenneth Galbreath's "In the long run, we will all be dead." I still believe the country will survive, all the current nitwits running it notwithstanding.

Hot damn. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

The Democrats did what they did because they believe in it, even though it may cost them votes later.

Now that's really something to laugh about. They believe in it. What they believe in is doing anything and everything to attack and debilitate the president, in an unprecedented fashion, to stop his agenda.

The Russian investigation was proven to be a complete hoax. Done, over, gone.

The IG report proved that they FBI used illegal means to get surveillance on a presidential campaign, being rebuked by the FISA court.

The impeachment inquiry has now deteriorated from claims of quid pro quo (now that's gone) to bribery (now that's gone) to now a mushy "abuse of power." And the obstruction issue? Trump is in court with a review coming by the Supreme Court. He's in court on the issue, right?

When someone is trying to kill you (literally or figuratively) and you use strong tactics to stop it, you're wrong?

Well, of course, this from the same party that would want you in jail for shooting an intruder. The same party that would want you to have to retreat if being attacked. The same party that has and always will support vicious criminals over citizens.

This is what you get from the disgusting left -

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/man-sentenced-to-16-years-in-prison-for-burning-churchs-pride-flag ↗

Free speech? The left is the enemy of free speech. They want to shut it down, when they disagree. We've seen it here. Try to debate with facts? Not if it isn't the fact that the left agrees with.

I will never defend Trump's character. Disgusting. Would much rather call Obama a friend, or have him to my home for dinner. I'm driven by policy. And protecting our country from the left's destructive goals.

But what is occurring now is a travesty driven by the ever disgusting left.

I saw where one of the "squad" interrupted a speech in congress with shouts to, "stop it." That's the left. Third world. Antifa. Urine bombs. Attacking Trump supporters. Open the gates to our country.

Disgusting.

@HighEliteMajor I believe in impeachment because I believe withholding foreign aid to solicit a political investigation of an adversary is impeachable. I also think his conduct toward Putin, China, Syria and Saudi Arabia represents a serious security threat to the country. For this reason I'm in favor of censure as well. Either he is guilty of an impeachable offense or he's too stupid/ morally bankrupt and self-serving to recognize it as such. I don't agree with his domestic policies but I could weather his administration there. I just don't think we can allow him to run a shadow government via Rudy Giuliani. The House did the right thing.

@approxinfinity You should read the transcript. That transcript, being morphed into an alleged impeachable offense, is mind-boggling. The claimed whistle-blower, who isn't really a "whistle-blower" under the law, didn't hear the conversation. He heard about it. He then met with Schiff to strategize all of this. Schiff then got on national TV, all networks interrupted, and then he lied about the transcript contents, later calling his speech to the nation a "parody."

Again, this went from quid pro quo, to bribery, to this. Where is the quid pro quo? Why isn't "bribery" the article of impeachment? We know why.

Now, I'm not going to defend Trump's character. But I'm very glad he doesn't take left's lies and crap sitting down. I'd rather he be presidential about it, though. He's crass and disgusting. But his policies are what I have to focus on. Otherwise we'd have justices on the SC that think like the 9th circuit -- the ones that complete disregarded the immigration restrictions Trump lawfully imposed claiming he couldn't do that when the law was clear. Judges solely motivated by politics. The shadow government, really, is the deep state that has worked so feverishly against him. Trump upsets the apple cart. The Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama makes folks comfortable.

HighEliteMajor said:

@approxinfinity You should read the transcript. That transcript, being morphed into an alleged impeachable offense, is mind-boggling. The claimed whistle-blower, who isn't really a "whistle-blower" under the law, didn't hear the conversation. He heard about it. He then met with Schiff to strategize all of this. Schiff then got on national TV, all networks interrupted, and then he lied about the transcript contents, later calling his speech to the nation a "parody."

Again, this went from quid pro quo, to bribery, to this. Where is the quid pro quo? Why isn't "bribery" the article of impeachment? We know why.

Now, I'm not going to defend Trump's character. But I'm very glad he doesn't take left's lies and crap sitting down. I'd rather he be presidential about it, though. He's crass and disgusting. But his policies are what I have to focus on. Otherwise we'd have justices on the SC that think like the 9th circuit -- the ones that complete disregarded the immigration restrictions Trump lawfully imposed claiming he couldn't do that when the law was clear. Judges solely motivated by politics. The shadow government, really, is the deep state that has worked so feverishly against him. Trump upsets the apple cart. The Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama makes folks comfortable.

The Ukraine quid pro quo allegation is right there in the first article of impeachment. The second article is straightforward obstruction. Congress has the authority as the superior branch of government to subpoena anyone they please. Trump can’t just not comply with lawful actions taken by Congress, hence the “faithfully execute” clause.

I would be careful saying Trunp’s record is such a success. He nearly fatally wounded the TCJA by meddling in the House W&M process. He scuttled ACA repeal. He has no interest in the debt. Foreign policy is a disaster. Trade is a disaster. I’ll give you judges but any other 2016 Republican would’ve done the same and not screwed up everything else. And he’s making the GOP uninhabitable for folks like me who spent years working for free minds and free markets, neither of which Trump believes in.

Interesting you find character so important for a basketball coach but not the President.

I’ve actually disabled my Facebook to prevent hearing about this nonsense daily. Lol it’s all a big joke folks. This is a distraction from other stuff the government has been doing like renewing the Patriot act allowing us to be spied on. @justanotherfan The dems are doing it, tho it wont pass the senate and is a complete waste of time, because it’s not their money that’s getting blown in doing so. They’ve wasted billions of tax payer dollars trying to get him impeached for the last 3 years. Instead of getting someone worth damn to run against him in 2020, you know like a logical thinking person.

@kjayhawks we call it "the show".

@BShark that’s all it is my friend, one big show. The government is a big party but we ain’t in it lol.

I know I'm just a dirty rotten leftist but I am genuinely curious how conservatives feel about the new defense proposed in the impeachment. I found this quote particularly terrifying but maybe I'm just seeing it through my blue shaded glasses?

"And if a president did something that he believes will help him get elected, in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment," Dershowitz argued.

Help me out here conservatives. Explain to me why this kid of presidential power without oversight is good. Genuinely trying to understand this because to my brain it is incomprehensible.

benshawks08 said:

I know I'm just a dirty rotten leftist but I am genuinely curious how conservatives feel about the new defense proposed in the impeachment. I found this quote particularly terrifying but maybe I'm just seeing it through my blue shaded glasses?

"And if a president did something that he believes will help him get elected, in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment," Dershowitz argued.

Help me out here conservatives. Explain to me why this kid of presidential power without oversight is good. Genuinely trying to understand this because to my brain it is incomprehensible.

Not a conservative, but generally on the right. Dershowitz is a hack. He made his career as a defense attorney and that's what he's doing here. No more, no less.

@FarmerJayhawk Do you worry if Trump is now acquitted by the Senate that this line of defense becomes precedent and opens up presidents to do almost anything they'd like to get reelected because they "believe" it's in the public interest for them to be president? I'm also no law scholar so I'm curious to know if that's even how that would work.

This is going to sound sort of funny.

I am young, I think you all know that. So I'm just now finding my Political Identity. I feel as though I'm a moderate. I have been called shitty names by both sides, that's how I know... I personally find the current President and his administration unbearable as, I've made clear. But I've quit worrying about it so much recently.

Why?

Well since Disney + came out, I've started watching the Simpsons from Episode 1. I've never watched them all the way through before. And, you know what, we have been in this same battle as a country for over 30 years. The things said over 30 years ago are still being said today. Almost exactly. It was hysterical!

And as I've now made it through about 8 season (I let it play in the background while I do other things), I am reassured that the U.S. will be just as divided and partisan tomorrow as it is today and was yesterday.

So I've quit watching the hearings. I quit being so captivated by it on Twitter and TV. He did what he is being accused of, and he's going to get away with it. I've made peace with that. It's clear he did it. You have to twist yourself into a pretzel to even try to argue what he was doing was okay. I have a lot of opinions on how this all was handled, but ultimately things will be decided in November. That's where we are.

What I haven't made peace with is term limits. Or rather, a lack there of. What the impeachment has made clear to me is that we don't have an independent body capable of holding a president accountable. Every single position in the Legislative branch should be single-term. You can do one in the House and one in the Senate. They cannot be consecutive. We absolutely need this. People argue experience is more important. I disagree. People are smart. Whether you like AOC or not I don't care. She has proven that you can go from a bartender to drafting bills without needing multiple terms. "Regular" people are up to the task. I'm an accountant, so independence, from a process perspective, is extremely important to me. Unlimited Term limits in Congress is a disaster that our founding fathers apparently didn't see coming.

To provide an example from the accounting world, in the Early 2000s, laws were passed that force Public Companies to rotate auditors every 5 years. Why did they do this? Enron was a main reason. For context: the auditors for Enron were getting paid millions of dollars to essentially help coverup the schemes going on by Enron. And instead of doing their job and acting as an independent body, they wanted to keep that account. So they let things slide. They covered up indiscretions and consulted on how to hide things from necessary reporting on the public financials. And they cost thousands of people to go broke. Thousands more to lose jobs. And it was all because they couldn't do their one damn job, be an independent set of eyes and ears. Thus, the mandatory switching.

Does switching auditors suck? Absolutely. They don't know your business. They haven't seen how you account for certain transactions yet. They don't understand your spreadsheets yet. They don't know who to test, where to test, how to test. You have to go over all of your processes with them again. It is a huge pain in the ass. But, that independence is what keeps another Enron from happening.

The same thing is happening here. We have people sitting in Congress raking in cash. And instead of ever being compelled to do the thing they actually truly feel is right, they walk party lines and take money from corporations. They are not an independent body. Not even close. They are a corrupt group of people fighting for power and nothing more.

I don't know that Trump would get impeached even if we had term limits and members could vote freely. I really don't. But I do know that at least I'd have the confidence that Representatives were independent in their votes and not just toeing the party line because they are up for reelection in 2020.

benshawks08 said:

@FarmerJayhawk Do you worry if Trump is now acquitted by the Senate that this line of defense becomes precedent and opens up presidents to do almost anything they'd like to get reelected because they "believe" it's in the public interest for them to be president? I'm also no law scholar so I'm curious to know if that's even how that would work.

Not really. I think the outcome was certain no matter what the defense said. Dershowitz could’ve went up there and started yelling get these squirrels off me and Trump would’ve been acquitted. That’s the weird thing about impeachments. The underlying facts are rarely in dispute. Everyone knew Clinton lied under oath and Trump held up aid to Ukraine to push them to investigate the Biden’s. It’s a political judgment about whether these were acts worthy of removal from office.

And FWIW, I think this is pretty clear cut and the Senate should convict.

@Kcmatt7 I agree with what you are saying in terms of how much time and effort is spent worrying about this. It blows my flipping mind how much the left is obsessed with DJT and this whole impeachment thing. They knew from the beginning that he was not going to get convicted and yet every waking minutes of their lives is wasted on worrying about this. If you are so concerned about it then show up in November and vote him out. That is how it works.

I am not the most political person , but I do lean right since that is what I was raised around. However, I do have beliefs that lean more left. So maybe I am more of a moderate as well. Who the hell knows in today's climate.

@Kcmatt7 Good points all around. I disagree on term limits. From what we know from research into state legislatures, term limits make representatives less accountable and increase the influence of special interests, professional staff, and the governor. They increase polarization as well since seniority tends to moderate legislators. Paradoxically, they tend to have the opposite effects proponents (quite reasonably!) believe they would, hence their popularity. https://www.mischiefsoffaction.com/post/political-science-term-limits ↗

Corrected post.

Do we really want to live in a country where the executive branch can deny Congress the ability to oversee it? That gives the presidency far too much power. If the president can’t be impeached nor indicted aren’t his /her powers as great as any dictators? I find it sad that all members of Congress can think about is their own re-election.

SouthernHawk said:

Corrected post.

Do we really want to live in a country where the executive branch can deny Congress the ability to oversee it? That gives the presidency far too much power. If the president can’t be impeached nor indicted aren’t his /her powers as great as any dictators? I find it sad that all members of Congress can think about is their own re-election.

Super glad you brought this up. I think we need to reject the relatively new school of thought that says the branches are co-equal because they are absolutely not if you re-read the minutes to Constitutional Convention and the Federalist papers. Nobody the thought of interbranch dynamics in that way at all. Congress is the superior branch, the executive the inferior. Here's a simple test: which branch has ultimate authority over who serves in the other two? Congress, because it can impeach whoever it damn well pleases for whatever reason it finds sufficient since A) it has the SOLE power of impeachment per the Constitution and B ) the issue of impeachment is non-justiciable. The courts have no role in the impeachment process.

We as voters need to quit thinking about POTUS as the end all be all and elect members of Congress that will actually reclaim the actual business of legislating. We may get a shove to that since this Roberts Court is as skeptical as any in recent memory about the non-delegation doctrine, which has very significant implications about administrative rule-making power. As an example, the ACA had a (this is a very jargony term, my apologies) SHITLOAD of "the Secretary (of HHS) shall" this or that to actually fill out the skeleton that was the ACA statute. It's how we got things like the contraception mandate and all that jazz. This Court is skeptical that the legislature actually has the authority to delegate that power to the executive. Hopefully they keep chipping away at it until we get something resembling a functional legislative branch again.

I have more thoughts but went pretty far afield. Oops.

Back actually on topic, there aren't 51 to extend the trial to call and depose witnesses. This will end late Friday/early Saturday. /scene

Joe Biden is a fat tick riding on the Body Politic - Trump is the tweezers.

Biden would make me mutter on the way home from voting. But no way in hell I'd vote for Trump.

Hoping for Bernie.

Thank you FarmerJayhawk for your insightful comments. I agree totally with your opinion with regards to Congress. My dollars are going to support important congressional races including ones in SC and KY.

SouthernHawk said:

Thank you FarmerJayhawk for your insightful comments. I agree totally with your opinion with regards to Congress. My dollars are going to support important congressional races including ones in SC and KY.

:hundred_points: :hundred_points: :hundred_points:

Another gem from Marco Rubio, "Just because actions meet a standard of impeachment does not mean it is in the best interest of the country to remove a President from office."

SouthernHawk said:

Thank you FarmerJayhawk for your insightful comments. I agree totally with your opinion with regards to Congress. My dollars are going to support important congressional races including ones in SC and KY.

You're welcome! I'm glad there's so much agreement about some of the causes of our current predicament.

To @benshawks08's quote, I'm not sure if anyone has made a bigger ass of himself than Rubio over the last 4 years. From darling of the GOP and cover of Time to a sad, little man who hasn't accomplished much of anything.

Biggest joke impeachment in our history. Sad thing is. Now every president will be impeached from here on out. I can hear it now. They tweeted something that hurt my feelings. At least Bill Clinton got a blow job out of his impeachment. Even though he lied under oath. But hey this is the new America. Don’t need evidence, just need speculation.

DoubleDD said:

Biggest joke impeachment in our history. Sad thing is. Now every president will be impeached from here on out. I can hear it now. They tweeted something that hurt my feelings. At least Bill Clinton got a blow job out of his impeachment. Even though he lied under oath. But hey this is the new America. Don’t need evidence, just need speculation.

Nah, Johnson was impeached for basically not following a law that was clearly unconstitutional, the Tenure of Office Act. Trump was impeached for not spending money specifically appropriated by Congress, breaching his obligation to “take care the laws are faithfully executed,” and doing so to start a foreign investigation into a political opponent. Those facts aren’t in dispute. If you think that doesn’t rise to the level of impeachable that’s fine and I can respect that, but he absolutely did what the House accuses him of doing.

@FarmerJayhawk

Yea they are in dispute. Ukraine got your money on time.

So if a country is labeled as the most corrupt in the world. And a new president comes in and says hey let’s pump the brakes. We impeach them? I guess I want to ask how does the son of a VP gets a job he has no experience in. But let’s look the other way. Right?

Also how many presidents withheld monies Appropriated by Congress. I think you’ll be surprised when you do a little Google search on it even the great Obama withheld money. But he didn’t get impeached

voted 51-49 no more witness - time to get this dam thing over with

DoubleDD said:

So if a country is labeled as the most corrupt in the world. And a new president comes in and says hey let’s pump the brakes. We impeach them? I guess I want to ask how does the son of a VP gets a job he has no experience in. But let’s look the other way. Right?

I mean this isn’t a road Trump supporters want to go down .... right?

DoubleDD said:

So if a country is labeled as the most corrupt in the world. And a new president comes in and says hey let’s pump the brakes. We impeach them? I guess I want to ask how does the son of a VP gets a job he has no experience in. But let’s look the other way. Right?

This logic is not sound.

Was aid held because they wanted to see if the country was corrupt? Or if they would investigate Biden?

If your fear is a country is corrupt, you would and should not ask that country to specifically investigate an American citizen.

He could have just withheld aid and cited he didn’t want to give millions to a new regime yet. Totally justifiable to have conditions on aid.

But only if those conditions are agreed upon U.S. policy. Asking a foreign country to publicly investigate any American Citizen is not the type of condition that should be tied to aid. Much less if that American Citizen is the son of your biggest opponent in the coming election.

He did exactly what he’s accused of. There is nothing to dispute. The testimony of the witnesses in the House were damning. Sondland literally said the President was both aware and that it was a Quid Pro Quo Bidens for Aid.

It is indisputable.

Woodrow said:

DoubleDD said:

So if a country is labeled as the most corrupt in the world. And a new president comes in and says hey let’s pump the brakes. We impeach them? I guess I want to ask how does the son of a VP gets a job he has no experience in. But let’s look the other way. Right?

I mean this isn’t a road Trump supporters want to go down .... right?

You’d think... but here we are.

Trump, the crusader against Nepotism. Lol.

DoubleDD said:

Also how many presidents withheld monies Appropriated by Congress. I think you’ll be surprised when you do a little Google search on it even the great Obama withheld money. But he didn’t get impeached

Withholding funds isn’t impeachable on its own. Doing so to get a foreign government to dig up dirt on a domestic political opponent absolutely is. I don’t care who does it, it’s a violation of the law. And I voted for Romney in ‘12, Johnson in in ‘16. There’s no love lost between the left and myself.

@Kcmatt7

Yea I agree. Yet we Are promoting a perception as fact. I’ve yet to hear or see any evidence that trump (like me, hate him) actually said investigate joe Biden. Have you?

Also just look at the articles of impeachment? Obstruction of justice? Because Trump did not respond to some of the subpoenas by the house. If your check, every president has done that. Why wouldn’t all those presidents even the great Obama get impeached?

Like I said this a which hunt. I’m mean you have Joe Biden on camera demanding a quid pro quo. And his son who has no experience in energy and oil gets the most Cush job in the world. But we don’t investigate that? we don’t look at that? no we speculate on what trump means by what he says, and present evidence off persons testimonies that didn’t even hear the phone call. Let’s not forget trump released the transcripts of such phone call. Also as by standard, there were a A minimum of 20 people that where on that phone call with President Trump. Yea twenty. Yet the evidence lies with persons that heard from a friend that heard it from a friend.

The answer to your first question might be answered had the senate heard from witnesses. Secondly, it was not just to some requests for documents but a refusal to turn over all documents. If, as it has been so frequently noted—one is so innocent of any wrongdoing why hide everything. You would think you would want to produce the witnesses and documents to show it.

@SouthernHawk

Hey the Dems could of had witnesses, and all the paperwork they wanted. All they had to do was go through the court system. So don’t blame the senate because the House was to lazy to do their job. BTW The Dems had 18 witnesses I believe. Every president has blocked witnesses from speaking and from sending over desired paperwork. None of those presidents got impeached. Innocent people go to jail all the time, my friend. That’s why you get a lawyer, or lawyers. And why is it that Dems want the witnesses they want, but President Trump can’t have his. Fair trial, Fair trail my ass.

If the Dems had a open and shut case then they blew it.

Nepotism is a bad practice and unethical. Coercion is a duress crime. Bribery is a crime.

I find it a bit disingenuous for anyone in the Trump family to be casting stones about nepotism. But they are. And it seems far too many people are blind to the irony.

Nepotism is not illegal. Coercion is.

I still fail to understand why a potentially nepotistic act could be considered so corrupt that it was worthy of withholding funds from a country -- essentially justifying coercion.

But that seems to be what the verdict was: Coercion -- a crime -- was justified because of the concern over nepotism (by a political rival).

I call bulls--t on the whole process, all the players and especially our completely self-absorbed, corrupt 2-party system.

In this environment, we should be concerned for the future of democracy.

@SouthernHawk Where in SC are you, and which race? There is only one I know of where any vote might make a difference: Cunningham vs whoever is designated by the GOP to reclaim that seat.

Although we live 100 feet from Columbia, where Clyburn will win until fossilized, we are in the gerrymandered part of Richland and Wilson might as well be unopposed. The most interesting race for us is usually county council.

DoubleDD said:

@Kcmatt7

Yea I agree. Yet we Are promoting a perception as fact. I’ve yet to hear or see any evidence that trump (like me, hate him) actually said investigate joe Biden. Have you?

Also just look at the articles of impeachment? Obstruction of justice? Because Trump did not respond to some of the subpoenas by the house. If your check, every president has done that. Why wouldn’t all those presidents even the great Obama get impeached?

Like I said this a which hunt. I’m mean you have Joe Biden on camera demanding a quid pro quo. And his son who has no experience in energy and oil gets the most Cush job in the world. But we don’t investigate that? we don’t look at that? no we speculate on what trump means by what he says, and present evidence off persons testimonies that didn’t even hear the phone call. Let’s not forget trump released the transcripts of such phone call. Also as by standard, there were a A minimum of 20 people that where on that phone call with President Trump. Yea twenty. Yet the evidence lies with persons that heard from a friend that heard it from a friend.

Yep, then Chief of Staff Mulvaney admitted to the exact thing the House accuses Trump of doing. It's not even really debatable. Congress is entitled to whatever documents it requires for an impeachment proceeding. Executive privilege in this context is nonsense. The only time a President can lawfully withhold material documents from Congress is when they don't have anything to do with Article I power. For example, the House doesn't have the right to internal Article II documents related to foreign treaties, but the Senate does because it has the sole power to ratify treaties.

Whether DoJ investigates the Biden's is another matter entirely and not related to this impeachment. There was no transcript. There was a memo written later but not a verbatim transcript.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/press-briefing-acting-chief-staff-mick-mulvaney/ ↗