🏀 KuBuckets Archive

All I offer is a choice.

We just witnessed two programs win Final Four games to send them to the national title contest. The battle Monday night will not just be for the national title. It will be for the mantle of the greatest college basketball program in the last 20 years.

Kentucky has on its shelf three national title trophies – 1996, 1998, and 2012.

UConn’s trophy case is adorned with three national title trophies in the same time period – 1999, 2004, and 2011.

One program will claim its fourth national championship in the last 20 years. That is greatness.

I have read comments here, and elsewhere. It is the classic “crimson and blue Kool-Aid” moment – the rationalizations, the explanations, the excuses. Specifically, the apologists.

What I ask of you is not easy. You have your life. You enjoy KU basketball. You love the history, and Allen Fieldhouse, and visiting broadcasters slobbering over the tradition. It’s quite satisfying to see highlight clips of former Jayhawks, and hearing Bob Davis scream “KU .. has won .. the national championship.”

But there’s something missing. You know what it is. You have felt it your entire life.

So I offer you a choice.

Take the red pill, and you see the world for how it really is. It’s not what you expect. The harsh reality is that KU is not a top five program. See, if you take the red pill, you will realize that the world is much different than you imagined. The world does not value conference titles. The real world does not care much about black and white photos of Wilt Chamberlain. Thirty win seasons are nice, but standing alone, they are mere conversation pieces. Take the red pill, and what you will see is the truth. The horrible truth. National championships define greatness. National championships are all that matter. You will see other programs achieving greatness, while our program languishes in excuses and rationalizations that serve only to satisfy our need for peace of mind. The red pill is reality. The red pill does not provide peace of mind. By taking the red pill, you will see a program that under the leadership of coach Self has underachieved in the NCAA tournament time and time again, losing to lower seeded foes on a regular basis. You will see a coach that remains inflexible, and refuses to adjust his strategies and schemes. You will see a coach who routinely fails to take the blame for his teams’ ultimate failures in the NCAA tournament. You will see a coach so enamored with his system, and arrogant in his approach, that he fails to recognize the need to change. Taking the red pill will make you angry. Angry at the results, angry at the messenger, angry at the world. You will see the horrible reality of underachievement. I didn’t say it would be easy. I just said it would be the truth.

Take the blue pill, and you will wake up Tuesday morning in your “10 there, done that” t-shirt and remember nothing. You will remain convinced that KU had a “great” season, as you do every season. You will believe that conference titles define greatness, or that they really mean something. You will believe that we “were are just so young”, and thus a national title was a fantasy anyway. You will believe that the tournament is mostly about luck. You will believe that other teams miss shots just like we do. You will believe that adjustments to scheme and strategy are too complicated to understand. You will hide behind the age old proclamation that “Self knows best.” You will believe that we have a great coach that has done everything in his power to win national titles. The failures will roll of the tongue – Bucknell, Bradley, UCLA, UNI, VCU, Michigan, Stanford. There is no way that Self was outcoached against lower seeded teams. It’s anything but that. But mostly, you will believe that national championships do not define greatness. And you will believe the excuses and explanations. If you take the blue pill, you will remain in a fantasy world. You will go about your life, to your job, on vacation – you will enjoy the ride. You will believe that KU has a place among the elite college basketball programs. You will believe that two national championships in 27 seasons is elite. And that three in 64 seasons is astounding. You will remain in a fantasy world. But you will be at peace. Rationalizations are a powerful tonic. Take the blue pill, and nothing changes.

All I offer is the truth.

Here we go again

@HighEliteMajor You seem to have taken a blue pill of your own, if you imagine the only alternatives available are the ones you have described.

If you are the Thought Master and those are the only choices, I'll take blue.

@ParisHawk All I offer is the choice.

@HighEliteMajor The choice between alternatives of your choosing.

By the way, why mention Self and not Williams? 3 of the 6 championships you mention happened when Roy was coach and a fourth during Self's first season with Roy's recruits.

Your red pill and your blue pill are roughly equidistant from the truth as I see it. I choose blue just because I don't "swallow whole" your preferences concerning college basketball.

National Championship and Final Four appearances remain a crapshoot. Just look at the way Kentucky has won its last 3 contests. Rankings of this year's title contenders: #7 vs. #8. I'm not trading 10 consecutive league titles for that national trophy. Bill Self's KU stats not yet salted away and filed in the dustbin.

Criteria, not rationalizations, or pharma, should drive this sort of conclusion. 😄

At 20 years, independent of violations, probably yes.

At 25-30 Duke.

At 30-40 Indiana.

At 50 UCLA.

At 100 UCLA.

At 15, UCONN Duke?

At 10, UNC, Florida, UCONN, then KU, UK, DUKE, etc.

Rules included?

Gotta come down to KU and Duke and INDIANA and UNC (post Frank McGuire) in most all eras, despite each having had itsoccasional problems.

@jaybate 1.0 jb, your first sentence throws me off here. Please clarify for this aging mind.

@HighEliteMajor

So I read your choices, responded in a way that well I did. I finished my coffee, went outside, the sun was rising the clouds were clearing and...

AND THE SKY WAS NOT FALLING!!!!!!!

@jaybate 1.0 Thanks

@HighEliteMajor You are correct, if you use that narrow criterion, number of NCAA tournament championships in the last 20 years, KU is not a top 5 program. We are 6th, tied with 7 other teams.

no. titles:

Connecticut 3

Kentucky 3

Duke 2

Florida 2

North Carolina 2

Arizona 1

Arkansas 1

Kansas 1

Louisville 1

Maryland 1

Michigan State 1

Syracuse 1

UCLA 1

However, I reject the premise that the 2 choices you offer are the only alternatives. I think reality is somewhere in between.

I was going to take a combination of the red & blue pills, which would be purple. But I hate purple.

In 2008, we had Mario, Russ, and Sherron. In 2012, we had Tyshawn. In 2013, we had EJ and Naadir. In 2014, we had Naadir, and two freshmen. When this team had a good point guard, this terrible, inflexible, arrogant coach was one of the best coaches in America. Do you think for 1 millisecond if the Harrison twins had signed here, we wouldn't be playing in that title game Monday? It's all about match ups, and I think we need a great point guard a lot more than we need Miles Turner.

@tundrahok Ok, what would be the thought process under the purple pill (maybe we call it the green pill). What is a rational middle ground?

I am hopeful that it will be devoid of excuses.

What can be gathered from Self's comments?

After Stanford: “I thought we’d play well. The guys seemed loose (before game),” Self said, noting it looked like there were nerves during the game. “We were hanging out with the guys last night. They were excited. We had some good ‘pump up’ things to show them. But it’s a little bit different pressure (in NCAAs). When things don’t go well early, this and that. We’re a young team and played young a majority of the game.” He’s (Wiggins) been so good all year long. He wasn’t aggressive today, not shooting the basketball (but) going after balls, things like that. That wasn’t the guy we’ve seen the majority of the year,” Self stated. “A lot will be put on him or me or whoever. I guess that’s the way it should be, but the kid had a great year. I hate the last game he labored like this because he obviously is better than what was shown today.”

After VCU: “When you put yourself in a position to cash in, you’ve got to take advantage of it,” said KU coach Bill Self, who fell to 1-5 in the Elite Eight. “Bottom line, as much as I’d like to think it, these opportunities don’t happen every year. You’ve got to make the most of them.”

After UNI: “I said in the locker room to the coaches, not the players, it probably is,” Self said. “And the reason it is, is a credit to the players because you work your butt off for a long time. You operate under duress, you operate under pressures the whole year that a lot of teams don’t operate under because of where we were ranked and expectations. And to put ourselves in a position that we were in, they don’t come around every year. You’ve got to make the most of those opportunities when you are granted them. That’s probably what stings the most. I don’t know if I’ll watch the tape. I know that there’s just one or two plays here or there that was the difference in the game, but this stings a lot.”

@HighEliteMajor Assuming we accept your version of reality, what's the remedy? Do you want to see Self fired?

@konkeyDong We either have to do better in the Tournament or less well elsewhere: sell the Rules, tear down the Fieldhouse and stop winning so many games in the regular season. Maybe the problem is not underachieving in the Tournament, but overachieving beforehand. Get a #8 or #9 seed, then if you knock off the #1 seed you've already overachieved, plus you inherit the #1 seed's path to the Final Four.

Outside of this thread, which is mostly an expression of frustration, HEM has already suggested several remedies, the gist of which is Coach Self has to learn more from his mistakes, adjust and evolve. Sure, why not?

The immediate source of frustration is Self let us lose to Stanford. I won't argue that point, but suppose Self came through and beat Stanford: we're in the Sweet 16, big deal! HEM doesn't give a flip if we don't win the title.

No way we win the title without Embiid at full strength: that's my red pill. This wasn't our year to win it all, period.

So once the frustration becomes less acute, we'll be back to what can we do? I'd say we have a better chance of improving our point guard play than improving our coaching. Funny how important PG play was in the semi-final games; just a coincidence?

@ParisHawk And here we are, heading into next season with the point guard situation still very much up in the air.

@REHawk Yes, and that is on Self too, no question. What isn't?

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Here are just three real simple reasons I will not take your pills of any color.

I do not conform to beliefs that are only one sided to get one answer. I like options, I like choice. I like my freedom and I like to speak my mind. Because the way you have set it up no matter any ones argument it will be "a straw argument" or and "excuse".

Being able to accept the hand that is dealt to you is huge in life. KU got a bad hand here and there and you are unwilling to acknowledge that. S@!t happens in life, you get tougher, you pull yourself up and you deal with it. Doc Marty and the Delorean are not here you can not go back in time, you can not have revisionist vision of 20/20, you can not say that it's this way or this way. It is not a fork in the road.

Again these are only three reasons I will not take any of your pills.

Wait you are saying I am jumping off the deep end? Hello Pot, I'm Kettle.

@JRyman How many Buckets fans offed themselves after each tournament loss? I know I die a little with each tournament loss. This year was different; KU did just what I suspected they would do without Embiid - lose every other game.

I choose to look forward to the future, not wallow in the self misery of the most recent loss. The Arizona loss still stings way more for me.

HEM: Here is why I cannot simply subscribe to either view (Red pill, you say is NOT for excuses. Blue pill is the eye-closed, kool-aid approach..)--> My issue is, with the losses, just like the wins...WHERE are the analytical reasons??? I like to break a loss down into "why" we lost...Do you know the satisfaction (superficially) that I get by knowing just how KU lost a game, by underperforming in whatever statistical area. Of course, deep down, any loss stings, and we know it stings Self too, because he cares about his kids, as do most of us, and we know how competetive Self is.

Very briefly, consider our "list of shame" early exits: Bradley, Bucknell, UCLA, MichiganState, UNI, VCU, Michigan, Stanford. Every single one of those games has not 1, but a few "fails" in it, causing our loss in each game. Roy-recruits not buying in to Self ball. Highly ranked kids trying to go 1 on 3, coming up short, not playing team-ball that got us to that UCLA E8 game. 2man (Cole/Sherron) team with frosh, soft Twins, and frosh Tyshawn, and a tentative Xavier get manhandled by MichState. Yes, out-toughed, despite what Self wants. No 3, No D vs UNI. No 3, No D vs VCU. Why do we show up not able to hit 3s, and unable to play our "trademark" defense? Yeah, you can always lay that at the coaches feet in a Harry Truman buck-stops-here way, but isnt that a cop out? Wasnt it the players that just failed to shoot to their avg, and play D to their usual FG% effectiveness? The system construct (by Self) is/was fine, as there were plenty of games all season long to test lineups, etc...and I say "fine" because it keeps getting re-proven by several different sets of Self recruits.

The worst win-total Self teams at KU are absolutely his "youngest"--> not an excuse, but an analytical fact that you can go back to 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2013 and see it. We watch the games. We know Selfball takes 2-3yrs to master. If you dont like the system, that is a fair critique...as Calipari has a system that is playable by frosh...barely. Coach K's takes a couple of years to master also (more like Self's).

Analytically speaking: this squad had too many flaws, within its team offense and team defense, and also with individual players. What would Bill Walsh say, regarding his own system at Stanford, then with the 49ers. I always use that as a system-analogy. Can you plug in proper talent, and if they execute the system competently--does it still give the results. For Walsh, yes it did: unplug Montana, plug in Young, same with their WRs. It worked. Bill Self's system is proven to win, better than anybody else's, but that's only when the kids duplicate the required performances. Which we did NOT. The defensive stats of the 2013 Jayhawks jump of the page to me as a huge negative example of us not getting it done. This is why we sit at home. Embiid, statistically, made us better on both ends, but without him, we were exposed. We got beat at home. That is reality, but it has root causes, found right there on game tape. Why did we lose in AFH to SDSU? And why did zone D bother this team SOOOO bad, while the 08Champs ate zone-Ds for appetizers? Hmm, both were coached by Bill Self, but tell me, analytically: What were the differences between the 08Jayhawks, and the 13Jayhawks? (Both had loads of MickeyD + nearMcD talent).

Final thought: If you judge the NChampionship thing in such a polarizing way, do you find any happiness in watching any games prior to March Madness? Most of us know the Conf.Championship is nice, but is not the final prize. We are royalty fans, with the highest aspirations, just like Duke fans, UNC fans, KY fans. But look at all of those teams. Sitting at home for specific in-game reasons of why they lost.

What would you say to the NChamp expectations of AZ, FL, WSU, Syracuse, MichState, Duke, UNC THIS year? Was that a "coaching fail"? Would you blame Bielein? Would you blame Boeheim for that collapse by Syracuse? Izzo? Kryzyzewski? I mean, some of those teams looked awful in their losses, while others lost a close, see-saw shootout. Hall-of-fame Roy tried x 15yrs, and got no NC at KU. Future HOF Self got a NC in his first 5yrs at KU, and should have had another 1 or 2 ('11 and '12). Roy should have had a couple ('97 and '03).

The REALITY is 67 out of 68 teams will go home unhappy. Perhaps being a Final 4 team is a consolation to those fans, but not to royalty fans when you get that close. My whole analytical point is, that without Embiid, I just highly doubted this team could get that close. Not without luck, and our luck went bad when Embiid went down. Frankly, there was better basketball being played by AZ, FL, and now, finally by KY. Better than us, we sit out for several very good reasons.

I know we'll be better next year. Better able to execute the system.

@HighEliteMajor

Bravo for the way you framed your post! Very creative, and it is hard to continue to talk about this subject framed differently, but you succeeded!

BTW, I like what you are doing here. You are, without question, the poster in her most likely to find success in coaching. You know the game, and you are persistent! It really does take hammering this topic over and over to start getting people to remove their Jayhawk glasses. I, too, wear crimson-blue eye coverings... but some things glare out at me and I'm in YOUR corner.

Everything we need to learn from this year's tournament is being shown us here.

Blue pill - We become another Kentucky, and fill our team with potential OADs and try to brute force over the real teachings of basketball with players that are not students attending classes.

Red pill - We learn from UCONN what it takes to be a winning program in March. It is all about developing top notch point guard play.

UCONN leaves a legacy in proving their point as the best March program (overachievers) in recent history. They never had the most talented team when they brought home the trophy (or even close). Let's take a peek in their trophy cabinet:

1999 - Richard Hamilton, a swing forward, was their big scorer. He was excellent, and steals much of the credit, along with the tournament MVP, but it didn't happen without PG Khalid El-Amin... a 5'10" fullback who knew how to drive the ball, protect the ball, create assists, and could score. He was a true leader and averaged 13.8 PPG, 3.9 APG and 1.6 SPG. That last number counts big. Khalid put pressure on the ball and made it tough for teams to run offense... like what you witnessed yesterday with Florida.

2004 - UCONN was actually one of the favorites in this tournament, and I believe they were a 2-seed. They were very well balanced, but were lead by 6'1" PG Taliek Brown, who is UConn's all-time assists leader with 722 in 134 games.

2011 - Who has forgotten Kemba Walker? 6'1" PG who carried this team all the way to the trophy. He was the MOP of the 2011 tourney by a land slide. Shabazz was a freshman that year, and the experience of the tourney, and playing with Kemba surely helped him and UCONN get to this year's championship game.

This year's UCONN would be nothing without Shabazz.

The 2008 Jayhawk team was loaded with talent, but it would have underachieved had it not been for their guard play. It took a miracle shot and overtime to beat a highly inferior team that had one super freshman PG in Rose. Had Rose been a senior, I'm doubtful KU would have won that game.

So... taking the red pill just makes me angry and filled with Self-loathing? That's a bitter pill.

If I take it (the red pill), does that mean I have to wish Rick Pitino, Tubby Smith, John Calipari and Jim Calhoun had been KU's coaches for the past 20 years. If so, I'll take any other color pill, thanks!

Nutshell answer: Better teams than this year's KU also lost, so its very hard to call out Self's system (which you have every right to do, anytime you want), when we saw our own team have multiple issues ALL season long.

AZ, FL, MichSt, Syracuse all lost. Should they be questioning "their" system to its core? Im not discounting that every coaching staff will/& should look for any system or preparation flaws...but its a bit hard, even for KU fans, who are left looking at 'coach-speak' soundbites post-loss and trying to "analyze" Bill Self's improvement or lack thereof in Tourney prep. We just dont know. And looking solely at the W/L result is something the casual fan or my non-sports wife might do...make NO attempt at analysis into a squad's shortcomings to really understand if this loss was just like other "early exits", thus qualifying it as a sign of system flaw or not. Just looking at the W/L is a cop out to doing true analytics. They flash those halftime stats, and the ESPN talking heads talk about it. Its the story of the game. Tape doesnt lie. But I want to know why the L, so I dig deeper. This squad did NOT have it, for a variety of reasons...all season long. (God, shouldnt going 3 of 6 in your last 6 games be a red flag?)

Next season, please.

Maybe we should call up Bo Ryan, Pitino, Bielein, Boeheim, Izzo, Roy, S. Miller, Archie Miller, Matta, Alford, etc...and warn them to "look into their Tourney prep" because of their obvious fail? It's clearly evident, right? They lost, so they gotta be doing something wrong! Or, lets talk about Kentucky, who were obviously doing something wrong all season to fall out of the top25...but do you tell Calipari he's wrong, or he's right?

I vote take a chill pill! We lost. I am most happy that we have Coach Self. I love the players that he recruits. We continue to be a solid program, with an excellent chance to win a tournament. That's all the NCAA Tournament is. It's a tournament. The winner of the tournament is named National Champion. It's the rules of the game, designed to generate billions of dollars, and it is working quite well.

If it were a 30 team tournament with only the regular season champions participating in it, then how many championships would KU have? Probably more than what they currently have. Who really knows, and who really cares. All the whining because we lose a game and this indirect fire against the University of Kansas Mens Basketball team by HEM when we lose is ridiculous. I appreciate every game we win. I don't like the losses, but oh well. 25 times I celebrated victory this year and 10 times I endured losses. We have won 10 straight Big XII Titles, that means something. That's a lot better than a 10-25 record. We have been there before, even though a lot of fans have never witnessed what it was like when we were pretty rotten.

I am not saying that everything that Coach Bill Self does is perfect. No one is. I don't expect him to be. What I do love and respect about Coach Self is that he is always giving us a winner, and the chance to compete for a National Championship every year he has been here. Yes there are teams with 3 and 4 Championships. That does not make them great, in my opinion. In the last 20 years, how many NIT Bids have the Kansas Jayhawks received? Zero! They are probably the only team that has not been to the NIT in the past 20 years. That, along with multiple Elite 8, Final Four, Title Game appearances, opponents storming the court each time we lose, and being the home of college basketball makes us an elite program in my book.

I am not the coach of the Jayhawks, no one on this board is. I would not trade Coach Self for any other coach in college basketball. Thanks again Coach Self for keeping us out the NIT. Some on this board have a hard time with only winning year after year. Hard to imagine what a trip to the real world and a spot in the NIT would do for them?

Blue pill. But...we are a top 5 program. And I am not delusional.
If UConn wins.....yes that adds to the NC total.
But are they the best team in the country?
I think not.
They will be the best team in a 3 week period.
The season lasts 5 months.
Yes, other programs are better because of regular season success and NCs combined....but we are still a top 5 program.

@Hawk8086 Well said. Thanks!

I am taking 1/2 of each pill. And I honestly believe we had the team with a good chance, but we lost Embiid

@Hawk8086

Now you've opened up a different can of worms...

What matters most... to be the best conference team or be the best March Madness team?

We've had this discussion in here before. I've always praised Self for bringing home 10 straight. So I guess I value conference play more.

But others in here value March more. I don't think you can easily have it both ways. Even Calipari's method of recruiting the most talent doesn't seem to be the best way to go for conference trophies. And UCONN often has way to little overall talent and depth to be a good conference team. They just count on their PG and guard play to come on by March.

Conference play and March play really are two different seasons.

We have to pick which one is most important, then apply Self's methods to success.

I think Self may be the best conference coach of all times. And his is on his way to proving it with his streak!

But I don't put him at the top of my March coaches list.

Heck... what coach would be at the top of both lists? Maybe Wooden?

@drgnslayr Wooden coached during a different tournament format. Hard to say.

@KansasComet Great point about the NIT. KY had a "NIT experience" last year. UNC had a "NIT experience" in 2010, causing Roy to pull out all his "old notes" from his UNC-asst, and KU coaching days, and he said he "wasnt doing anything different". (Wow! There in lies Roy's problem: He had the chance to realize his own system's flaw: no defense, or D only played well by those that arrived with the ability, like Miles, Hinrich, Lee...). Defense is a FG% stat-monitoring mantra to Bill Self, perhaps the most basic of Self's philosophies. And you dont turn it over. Take high% looks.

But yet another season for UNC, and we saw Marcus Paige be red hot as a PG, hitting 3 after 3 in their loss to IowaState...yet UNC falling behind the times regarding defensive ability and intensity. They suffer in being unable to "stop the other guy". It felled them in the Tourney, yet again. Not to mention their interior softness, with talented bigs settling for pullupJ's, like latter-career MJ. They forgot their most famous alum was absolutely relentless to the rim, well before he developed a 3gun...and was voted DefensiveMVP multiple times in the NBA. Self's 1seed 08 team demolished Roy's 08 1seed UNC, again showing this game is played on both ends of the court.

It took Bill Self being at KU x 2-3yrs, and me actually seeing what his own recruits experienced dedication and tenacity on the defensive end did for KU's reliability, and win total. And to watch it demoralize opponents was very satisfying. We got away from that this season, but nothing that Self and the practice gym, and the doghouse wont fix. That, along with an eager-beaver jhawk in the rotation coming up right behind you and your roster spot...

This year's KU team only proved that Self's system (& his redfaced sideline anger) wont help you if you leave 50% of it on the lockerroom chalkboard!

Fellow jayhawks, I urge you to dig out tapes and DVD's of Self's past teams, preferrably 2008 (his best executing squad), to restore your faith...and realize we did not possess a competent Bill Self team this season.

Here's some quotes:

Tyshawn Taylor: "Time to get back to the lab and work on things."

Darnell Jackson: "We got away from what brought us this far, got away from who we are."

Sherron Collins: "I gotta bring the young'uns along and look out for them."

Brandon Rush: "I didnt have a very good day shooting the ball, but I tried to really stick with CDR (defensively)".

Russell Robinson: "Better watch out, or I'll steal that ball, and you just might get dunked on..."

Andrew Wiggins: "I'd rather only have scored 5pts, if it meant my team won (instead of scoring 41pts in loss)".

@ralster Thank you. That was very uplifting. For most teams this would be that NIT season. Losing 5 starters and still finding a way to win a 10th consecutive Big XII Championship, while earning a number 2 seed in the tournament. What an excellent basketball program. Hopefully we get back to our defensive/rebounding ways next season.

I'm not taking any pills (unless they're ibuprofen. I've been working my butt off in the yard this weekend).

Does anyone remember when Indiana was the mecca of college basketball? How about St. John's? Temple? Notre Dame? The list goes on and on. There are a lot of great teams - great programs out there. They're not all going to win a national championship every year.

There's nothing magical about U-Conn or Kentucky. They have great players. They have great coaches. Their schedule worked to their benefit. They didn't have injuries to key players at the wrong time. They didn't have stupid turnovers at the wrong time. They made key free throws. They had a lucky shot or two go down. The stars lined up - whatever terminology you want to use.

Bottom line is - if your criteria of what makes a good team, a team worthy of spending your time, energy, money and stresses on is winning a national championship - GO. Root for U-Conn or Kentucky tomorrow. Root for Florida, North Carolina or Duke. Hell - jump on the Wichita State bandwagon, they're a popular media choice right now. ** And prepare to be disappointed **

Your team ain't going to win every year.

I've been a KU fan for 50 years and I'll be one if lose 25 games next year. I'll be a fan if we have Bruce Weber for our coach. I'll be a fan when we win our 11th straight Conference Championship, or our 30th. I'll be a fan when we recruit OAD's and I'll be a fan when they score 41 points a game and I'll be a fan when they score 4 points a game.

If you're gonna be a fan - be a fan. Otherwise go be someone else's "fan".

@HighEliteMajor I think your pills are describing the extreme situations. In my opinion reality is somewhere in between.

Bill Self is a great coach and I'd not trade him for any other coach. His system as some call "Self Ball" works very well. However, it is a complex system and requires experience for good execution.

We are seeing College BB landscape changing at top programs where highly talented players are coming in but they are going to NBA at a much faster pace. As such it is difficult to get the continuity and experience that is an essential element of Self Ball. With that in mind I believe Self needs to adapt too. He needs to be more flexible. He needs to tweak his system a bit.

Furthermore, he needs to get his mojo back and become a better game day coach. I am not saying that he is not good. But it seems that he is getting outcoached more often now. Other coaches are exposing his weaknesses. They are eating his lunch more often.

I will give two examples. First one is the Big 12 Tourney semi finals against ISU. In the 1st half ISU was not doubling up on our post players allowing Ellis to score freely. In the 2nd half ISU changed the game plan and started effective double/trip teaming our post players. They pretty much took Ellis out of the game. But Self did not make any change to the plan despite seeing his guys struggle against ISUs double/triple teams.

The 2nd example is the Stanford game. While Black was the only Big doing any scoring it was clear that scoring inside against the Stanford Bigs will be tough but we kept going inside and kept on missing the shots. It was very frustrating. In addition, Stanford was playing without a pure PG. Self should have recognized the weakness and put this in his game plan for more pressing. But he waited till about 10 mins left in the game to start pressing. By that time it was too late.

In summary, Bill Self is a really good coach but he needs to adapt and make necessary tweaks in his system.

Interesting discussion. HEM's question reflects the national perception of KU basketball.

What makes the NCAA tournament so fascinating is that it so often does not render the best team in the country as its' champion. When UConn won in 11 they were 9-9 in their league, they were not the best team in the country. They only had to defeat Butler to win the NC. Do you think Butler was the 2nd best team in the country? I don't.

In an NBA style playoff, KU wins national championships probably in 1997, 2002, 2003 and maybe several others.

But the tournament is set up for favorable matchups, and by favorable, I mean favorable to teams that will draw the best ratings. UConn doesn't leave the state of NY this year to get to Dallas. Kentucky, with their ballyhooed 8th seeded team gets to play up the road in St. Louis, and then in Indianapolis. Maybe without a lot of home cooking neither of those teams even makes it out of the regional rounds. Now KU has received some favorable draws too threw the years to be sure, so it's not a major reason.

So to answer the question, Red and Blue pills combined make purple so I will take purple, a little of both!

@nuleafjhawk I can appreciate every one of your comments. Thanks!

@nuleafjhawk love your post! Little problem w/Liberace. I read this pill post on ku sports, loved Tony Bandles aka oakville's post. Didn't know if we could copy and paste it here or not??? Wish I had yard work done.

@wissoxfan83

"So to answer the question, Red and Blue pills combined make purple so I will take purple, a little of both!"

You scare me with that... we definitely don't like purple in here! hahahe...

I'm watching the game yesterday with my wife and during the first half I told her that the Badgers will be in this game unless they miss at the FT line.

Sure enough... wasn't it their only miss at the line down the stretch... missing the one that ended up making them one short after Harrison hit his 3?

@HighEliteMajor We've essentially become the Boston Red Sox. We've been to the big dance several times, but ultimately left empty-handed. It's undeniably painful.

I can't really add anything to what you've already said, because you are right on. Self is stubborn. We as KU fans have put such a premium on something that is really just not that important (Big 12 champs). They mean nothing. Absolutely zero. What Calipari has done this year is what he's done before, and what other coaches have before him. Prepared their team for March. Kentucky has the real deal in Julius Randle. They know that, we know that, everyone knows that. We knew that in the second game of the season against MSU. What Calipari developed over the course of the season, on top of the talent that UK already had, was the same thing that Self didn't develop, and the reason why we lost in the first weekend.

Watching UK this season was like watching a pick up game. They took foolish shots, played spotty defense, and looked uninterested. But in the end, they only needed to get to the tournament. So many UK players, with the exception of James Young, would take terrible shots, miss them and UK would lose. No big deal though. However, over time those bad shots began to fall, and just in time for March. But UK doesn't have a monopoly on good shooters. We have a few. But guys like Greene, CF, and AWIII really didn't get much of a chance to really work on that shot over the course of the season. UK developed theirs and is playing for an NC tomorrow. Self didn't develop our shooters' outside shots and again, for the sixth time in the past 10 years, we lost to a team we should have beat. We relied on too much of the "same ol, same ol" with Perry "Finesse" Ellis of all people, and lost. To Stanford. In the round of 32. Undeniably painful.

BUT...

As many have pointed out, the question becomes, does KU look to another option besides Self? I vote no. Although I am beyond pissed off about the disappointments.

@MoonwalkMafia

I wish we were the Red Sox, they've won all three World Series they've been in since 2004! I don't recall them losing a world series since 86, just ask Bill Buckner about that one!

@MoonwalkMafia You can't compare Greene, CF, and AWIII to Kentucky's talent...it's not even close.
They have as much talent, although young talent, as has been assembled in quite some time.

@wissoxfan83 Haha, I was going for the pre-2004 definition of the Red Sox.

@Hawk8086 you are right about that. But in terms of shooting the ball, I don't think so. And honestly, while that comparison may even be somewhat true, the fact is we became so one-dimensional that when we needed to utilize a different aspect of the game we were unable to. And how you analyze that takes on different angles as well. Did we even have the ability to do what it takes to win it all? Or was it simply out of our reach no matter how the cards fell?

Thanks for the discussion .. I read all the posts.

@wissoxfan83 said - "HEM's question reflects the national perception of KU basketball."

Precisely.

My point is to challenge our thought process, as we live largely in our little KU cocoons. I know everyone here is coming from a different perspective. My perspective is just one. But nationally, as noted above, we are tied for 7th in national titles the last 20 seasons. Folks see us as a great program, but one that has trouble winning the big one. It is what it is. The Red Sox analogy is a good one.

I kind of think the Atlanta Braves is better. Yea, they won one, but with Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz, they should have won three or four.

So whether you're the red pill, blue pill, a little of both, or you think the entire discussion is stupid, is there a cure for what ails us in March?

I am very interested in what the group here thinks. I'm going to post my thoughts this week. Not in a "Self has failed" tone, but in a tone that is matter of fact. As basketball fans who live and die KU hoops, what do we thing marginally, and at the core, could help change our fate in March.

I do believe that there is an answer, or groups of answers. Think to yourself, if there was one thing you would change, what would it be?

Perhaps many will just think -- keep choppin' wood. It's a matter of time.

But I sense there will be more. @AsadZ touched on a few things above.

@konkeyDong asked, "do you want to see Self fired?"

That is the ultimate question, isn't it. It would be a bold move, wouldn't it? Crazy. Asinine. Beyond reason. Who fires Bill Self?

It just depends on the analysis.

Let me ask this -- assume that your analysis concluded that coach Self, through system, scheme, or otherwise was holding back KU from achieving titles -- would you fire Self?

One thing is for damn certain. KU basketball survived before coach Self, and it will survive after coach Self. Coach Self is not KU basketball. We're not some shy high school girl afraid to dump her boyfriend because no one will love her like he does. We are KU basketball.

Everything needs to be on the table.

is there a cure for what ails us in March?

@HighEliteMajor I started a thread entitled "Biggest Change Needed" about a week ago wanting to know fans' thoughts on exactly this issue. I went back & forth quite a bit with konkeyDong on the issue of flexibility. Others suggested that the major problem was related to the 3-point shot, developing shooters, allowing them the freedom to take the shot at any point during the possession (early in the shot clock. Some focused on the PG position. And I believe there was a smattering of conversation about OADs.

My personal belief is that being flexible with both general philosophy as well as in-game management would lead us to at least a partial answer.

@icthawkfan316 would you consider a change at head coach? What if you learned coach Self would simply not adjust his philosophy, would refuse to be flexible -- as the evidence thus far suggests?

@HighEliteMajor I considered this, and my gut reaction is no. Mainly because I don't see anyone out there right now that we could get that I would consider better. Sure, we might find someone more flexible. Rick Barnes or Bruce Webber might be more flexible, but they are not close to the complete package that Self is. Self has what I consider to be an excellent core philosophy. He is an excellent recruiter. He is charismatic. He is a great ambassador for the program. And even if he is unwilling to be flexible, we have evidence that he doesn't always need to be. We can win it all with him not adjusting. Maybe not as often as we'd like, but we know it's attainable.

The other thing that I have a problem with people asking to replace Self because he is not meeting our standards or expectations of success is that Self has as many national championships as any other coach in the university's history. When people say "this is Kansas" as if to say we should expect more, I wonder why. What success have we experienced in the past that would lead us to feel entitled to more than Self has given us? This is perhaps a harsh reality to face, but perhaps we should feel fortunate to be included in discussions with other blue blood programs.

Back to my original point, who would we look to if Self wouldn't change? Are we willing to take a risk on a lesser name or someone who is more unproven? The example here that comes to mind is Kentucky getting rid of Tubby Smith, and striking out with Billy Gillispie. Sure they got Cal with their second swing and are surely happy with the success he has brought the program, but there were no guarantees when they fired Tubby that if Gillispie didn't work out that someone of Cal's caliber would be out there and available. Look at UCLA. When (if ever) are they going to land an elite coach that elevates their program to what we would consider blue blood status? Ben Howland was supposed to be that guy, and he took them to some Final 4s, but was eventually replaced for not winning championships and letting the program fall off towards the end of his tenure. Now they're trying Steve Alford. Does a Steve Alford/Billy Gillispie type hire fill you with confidence?

@konkeyDong asked, "do you want to see Self fired?"

That is the ultimate question, isn't it. It would be a bold move, wouldn't it? Crazy. Asinine. Beyond reason. Who fires Bill Self?

It just depends on the analysis.

Let me ask this -- assume that your analysis concluded that coach Self, through system, scheme, or otherwise was holding back KU from achieving titles -- would you fire Self?

One thing is for damn certain. KU basketball survived before coach Self, and it will survive after coach Self. Coach Self is not KU basketball. We're not some shy high school girl afraid to dump her boyfriend because no one will love her like he does. We are KU basketball.

Everything needs to be on the table.

@HighEliteMajor With all due respect, that's a total dodge. If Self is the man you believe him to be, the man you described, then I say fire him today and don't look back. If you can make that post and can't say the same thing without the slightest hesitation, then you lack the courage of your conviction. As for the question of do I see Self as the man who's holding us back from March succes, it's a resounding no. No. of titles won in the last 11 years under Self: 1. No. of titles won under Williams in 15 years? 0. Larry Brown? 1, but it took him 5 years, just like Self, then he bolted for the NBA leaving violations in his wake (and an unproven replacement who would go 15 years without winning a title). So even if KU isn't the greatness we all want it to be, at worst, Self is allowing us to tread water, and at best (and what is my humble opinion) he's setting us up for it. Does Self have flaws? Certainly. Does he make in game mistakes? Sure. Has he been upset by teams that have no business being on the same court as us. Undeniably. But the fact of the matter is, the same thing can be said for every other coach of any significant longevity at every other program, including those coaches that have won multiple titles.

As for the issue of Stanford itself, can I ask you to swallow a red pill too? Will you recognize that you'd have to be blind to think that that result was an upset by any measure other than seeding? Can you recognize that without Joel Embiid on the floor, we weren't a team that should have beaten Stanford. Can you see that we were a team that was lucky not to lose to EKU? I mean, for the love of God, we got smoked by WVU, burning every TO we had with 17 minutes left in the game and the only thing that kept it from being a complete and utter domination was a fluky (but fun to watch) 41 pt performance by Wigs. If we're asked to embrace the facts, then let's embrace them for what they are. KU was a flawed team this season that managed to coalesce around Joel Embiid's amazing talents. Once he was gone, we were exposed for being a team with no dribblers, no shooters, and no hope in March. I am not at all upset with our performance against Stanford (beyond the fact that we lost), because I haven't deluded myself into believing that without Embiid we were any better than the team that got spanked by WVU, and I recognized on Selection Sunday that we were in a bracket loaded with bad match ups for us. Yes, we relied on a finesse post player. Yes, we relied on going inside. Yes we struggled. Yes we lost, but we lost doing the only thing that gave us any prayer of winning. The only thing I would like to have seen done differently is for Frankamp to have played all of Tharpes minutes (and Mason to get the balance).

Finally, what exactly do you want to see change? And don't tell me that Self needs to be 'more open minded' or 'more flexible'. Those are platitudes, not answers. They are the stock and trade of gurus, psychics, and self help columnists who refuse to offer real solutions in order to escape accountability for the results. If you have specific suggestions, suggest them. Have them debated. It's easy to offer vague proposals because they only have strengths and no weaknesses. It's the reason an unnamed Republican beats Obama in 2012, but Mitt Romney fails. So what do you want to actually happen on the court. What are you seeing that needs to be changed and why is it better than what's happening today. You know my case. My case is that guys delivering you 30 win seasons will, sooner or later, deliver you the number of titles you'd think would be commensurate with that win rate. So what's the secret of losing 10 games and still playing for a title or going 9-9 in conference and cutting down the nets? The ball is in your court, HEM.

Man I love this board! I took a few days off but enjoyed reading this thread in one sitting.

1. I was devastated when HCRW left...but then got really excited when HCBS was rumored to be coming...I read everything I could find on him and distinctly remember the Chicago writers loving him.

2. I don't want him to leave for at least 5-10 years or 2 more national titles whichever comes first.

3. I would like him to keep evolving as a coach. Resisting change is a recipe for mediocrity.

4. He needs to implement more zone like @HighEliteMajor keeps harping on justifiably so. Maybe play it 20% of the time but it needs to be on the table.

5. Mix in more full court, 3/4 court and half court presses like @jaybate has suggested.

6. Point guard...argh what hasn't been said on this?

7. PT aka playing time. This has always been a head scratcher for me. Historically he's always had a short leash with freshman (Russ Rob n Naa being two good examples). And he gives upper class men longer leashes (Naa, again & EJ). I wish he would have played CF and Brannen a lot more and taken away minutes from Selden and especially Naa. AWIII is a mystery.

8. Conference titles matter. I loved the analogy above that if we played nba series we'd have a lot more national titles to go along w our conference titles.

9. National titles matter, also. But I don't think HCBS is somehow not preparing our kids properly for the postseason bc of his lack of multiple titles. Is the new coach at UConn a genius bc of this tournament run? I highly doubt it.

10. Losing Beed cannot be understated. That's why I'm in favor of him returning! If so, is there any reason we shouldn't go 35-5 and win the title next year?

@HighEliteMajor Although you didn't specifically state, I assume from the tone of your post that you're a red pill kinda guy. All I can say is Welcome aboard! C'mon in--the water's fine. I've been carping about these points since 05 (when Bill's Okie hokie-pokie offense ruined a preseason #1 team) and on chat boards since I joined in '10--how does this offense "get a bucket" when it needs one?

If we extend your scenario 5 more years and define it as the time period of Kansas' NCAA tournament appearance streak, you get Duke with 4 championships, North Carolina-3, UConn-3, Kentucky-3 and Florida-2. We're not even in that conversation. Is there anyone here who wouldn't trade our streak for 2 or 3 more championships? Or even 1?

Of course, we can take solace in winning our Cake Conference Shampionship every year. You know, our regular season over-rated conference that hasn't managed to put ONE team besides Kansas in the Final Four in the last ten years? There's a power conference for you.

After the double debacles of 05 & 06, I came to the conclusion (perhaps hastily) that this coach was not ready for prime time. After 07 & 08, I decided that the coach had grown and achieved prime time performer status. But after two more debacles in 10 & 11, 08 began to look more and more like an anomaly, and Bill's 08 pre game speech, where he THANKED the players for bringing him along on the ride, took on new layers of meaning.

After another run at the title in 12 (aided by stud players that hardly any other team could match) I was ready to give Bill another pass. But once (or twice) again, he did not disappoint(?) in my original judgement of "not ready for prime time" -- losing to Michigan in probably the biggest choke job in NCAA history, and to then to a western Ivy League team.

To those who argue that other top teams get upset, show me another top rated team laden with NBA talent that gets upset in the tourney on a regular (more than every other year) basis by teams with NO NBA talent--or as one hilarious poster (whose handle I can't remember) posted after UNI, a team full of future insurance salesmen. That's the definition of getting out-coached.

Add to that a coach who simply refuses to review tournament losses ( I still can't comprehend that) and it begins to boil down to simple stubbornness. With that attitude, the game will simply pass you by. I read (in my 'out of the Kansas bubble' local paper) a profile of Billy Donovan, detailing how he agonized over tournament losses, watching them over and over, trying find what he did wrong, what he could have done differently, until his dad had to urge him to 'let it go Bill, let it go.' If only our Bill 'Self-scrutinized' a little more...
But he's probably too busy thinking about his motorcycle and disco outfit for next October's Late Night.

It's not heresy to think of life after Bill. I"m not a Bill fan, I'm a Kansas fan. I was disappointed when they fired Ted, thinking "Who will they get?" And then came Larry, the greatest basketball coach ever. And then came Roy, and so on. Kansas Basketball goes on, no matter who is at the helm. It's Kansas that makes the coaches great, not the other way around.

I'll ask this question one more time. I haven't gotten a response yet.
Is there anyone here who thinks Bill Self is doing a good job of preparing his team for tournament games?

HEM, you have really opened the floodgates with your brilliant red pill/ blue pill debate! Hell, I came onto this thread as an 11-year-long right hand hitter. Now I am at least considering stepping up to the plate from the other side. Thanks for setting the kettle to boiling.

If @HEM were a fan of either uCon or kentucky his head would have exploded from frustration last season when uCon was banned from post season play or when tucky was losing to Bob Morris. Or he'd have been put on a 96 hour hold at the local mental hospital. "Those coaches should have been fired last year!!!"

@HighEliteMajor As a constant reader (sometimes poster) on this site I know that HEM is most of the time the professor and we are all the students. His insight is pretty much unmatched and I truly enjoy reading his posts...along with so many others on this site that know endless amounts about KU and college b ball.

That said, I have to disagree with the statement that KU is not a top 5 program. I actually do agree that National Titles are a huge part of the equation and that UCONN and UK should be included in the top 5 list of the last 10-20 years but to think that KU is not a top team seems like bitterness over the fact that our incredibly talented team underachieved...again.

Who exactly is top 5? I know this is a pretty gray area...or a very gray area. If you asked a Syracuse fan, do you think they would say they are a top 5 program? I bet they would think so. They have a national title (same as KU) in the last twenty years. They have other Final 4's as well and win 25-30 games a year under the coach with the 2nd most wins in NCAA history.

Is UNC? Is Duke? UNC has lost early the last two years in March and spent part of both of the last seasons unranked. Are they a top 5 program? Sure, they have 2 titles in the last 20 years (one more than KU) but does their appearance a few years ago in the NIT go against them? Does the fact that Duke has lost to a 15 and a 14 seed in 2 of the last 3 years kick them off of a top 5 program list? That seems like underachieving in my book. Personally I would still consider both programs elite and probably top 5.

Is Florida a top 5 program? I don't really think so but that is probably biased as I have always thought of them as a football school who had one of the greatest b ball recruiting classes ever and road that to 2 titles. Are their recent Elite 8 runs and this years Final 4 enough to say they are a superior program to KU? Again, I don't think so but who knows...they do have more national titles than KU...

@Kip_McSmithers My comments last year about Kentucky were the same as they were after UNC won the title in 2009 and went to the NIT -- I'll take that trade. National title one season, NIT the next. Or UConn winning the title in 2011 and missing the tournament because of .. (really) .. academics. I'd take that. I think we were all fine with the title in 1988 and missing the tourney the next season .. I was still shining the ring.

If you didn't read all of @konkeyDong last paragraph above, please do so. Not so sure I agree with the Republican vs. Obama comparison, but we avoid political debates like the plague. But the challenge is an excellent one. Essentially put up or shut up. Give me a couple of days.

@REHawk Soooo, did you take the red pill?

@KULA - I think you're the one that gave me the red pill.

@icthawkfan316 - Before anyone would think of a change, you'd have to have the replacement. That makes it difficult.

@nuleafjhawk did you take the blue pill? "There's nothing magical about U-Conn or Kentucky", you say -- how about 6 of the last 18 national titles between them? If there is a word called "magical", what do you reserve it's use for -- aside from Disney World, of course?

And I appreciate @Hawk8086 's candor. He took the blue pill without hesitation. "We are still a top 5 program."

@drgnslayr - "I think Self may be the best conference coach of all times." Yes, he is. No doubt. And I like the UConn model as you suggest .. looking at why they succeeded to the ultimate prize so many times with diverse groups of players.

I still say we gave them the 2011 trophy -- Self wins the 2011 trophy and this discussion isn't happening, right? Or 2010. Or 2012. Or 2013. Or playing tonight. Lots of "ors".

Just a friendly healthcare reminder: If you do take the blue pill, and your rationalization lasts more than 4 hours, please notify me or your nearest healthcare provider.

@HighEliteMajor Nothing magical about getting beat by Bob Morriss in the NIT either.

Stuff happens. Like I said before, injury, luck (good or bad) whatever.

If you want to bathe in the majesty of Uconn or Kentucky, go right ahead.

@HighEliteMajor Yes I'd have to have the replacement. It would be different if we weren't at least "treading water". If we were not recruiting as we should be able to. If we were not making the tournament regularly. If we had a "lack of institutional control". Basically, if things were going bad like they did for Howland at UCLA. But we have none of that. Our only gripe is our desire to have a higher rate of success in the NCAA tournament. The question is a little ridiculous given that we are two years removed from the national title game. But I would at least entertain the idea if someone could present a case for another candidate with a low risk-high reward profile, because as much as I think Self is a great coach, if someone can do better I would say make the change.

I still come back to the problem I have with our fans thinking we are entitled to more. "We are Kansas basketball". Or, as @KULA said "It's Kansas that makes the coaches great, not the other way around." We have 3 National titles, and one of them was won by Bill Self in his 11 year tenure. The NCAA tournament began in 1939. That's 75 years of tournaments, and we've won 3 of them. That's a clip of one every 25 years for our program. That's how great Kansas has made its coaches for the past 75 years. What level of success does anyone think we had prior to Bill Self that they think he hasn't delivered on since his arrival?

Is it wrong to want more? To want the program elevated? To enviously look at UConn and say "why isn't that us?" Not at all. I certainly do. But don't delude yourselves with "we are Kansas." When anyone wants to evaluate our program and talks about taking off the crimson & blue colored glasses, I would advise them to do the same and start with this basic fact: Kansas is a great program with wonderful tradition. But that tradition doesn't really include that which we are so hungry for - increased tournament success. If you want us to build upon that and have greater success, fine. Me too! But please stop acting as if we've "fallen off".

I'm probably a blue pill guy anyway. After all, I have said more than once on this board that around the country, most teams don't remember who wins the conference, other than the conference their favorite team is in. For example, most of us won't remember who won the ACC this year once next season gets going. Most probably don't remember who won the Big 10 last year, or who won the Pac-12 the year before. Conference titles are nice, but they don't really resonate nationally because the grind of the conference schedule is regionally focused.

So here's the real question - is it effective in this state of college basketball to coach an elite major school with a system that takes 2-3 years to master? If, as some have argued, Bill Self's system is so complex as to take 2-3 years to master, is that really practical knowing that the top talent won't be in school for more than 2 years most of the time?

For example, even if Wiggins and Embiid returned, is there anyone that believes they would stay past next season? You simply cannot assume that you will have the best players for more than 2 years.

It seems to me that Calipari has understood this better than basically anyone. I think Tom Izzo is a genius, but even he has struggled with the fact that in order to have top notch talent, he can't expect to have those guys around for four full seasons. Coach K has started to embrace this as well, although the results have not followed yet.

I think the new reality of college basketball is that teams are going to have to adapt year to year based on the talent on hand more so than relying on a system. If you have an Andrew Wiggins one year, you have to capitalize on his unique gifts. If, the next year, you have a different type of player (a Cliff Alexander, for example) you should adapt to take advantage of that. Lacking a true high talent PG? Maybe you let your wing players initiate the offense. The new reality of college basketball is that you can't just hope your system wins it for you - the talent is very spread out, to where if you don't maximize the use of the elite guys, you're no better off than a team with lesser talent.

I'm not a particularly good loser. In fact, it's been said that I'm a POOR loser. I take great pride in that.

However, the fact that Kansas doesn't win the National Championship every year is not enough to make me bail on them.

If we're going to base greatness on how many NC's a team has, then it's UCLA. Hands down. End of discussion. Next, as jaybate 1.0 would say.

Take a random poll of people across the country and ask them to choose the 5 greatest programs of all time. Here's the answer you'll get the majority of the time:

In no particular order: Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina and Indiana. Go ahead - take the poll.

Why? Because they have consistently been winners. Over a long, long period of time they have been known as winners. They win a lot of games. They win conference championships. They have history. They make movies about them. They send players to the NBA. Their names are synonymous with winning.

Yes, I want to win more National Championships. In my heart, 10 losses in a season is unacceptable. But, it's basketball. We attract many top athletes here and when things click, we are unstoppable. They didn't click this year. Do we send Bill Self packing? (as if we could). Probably not a great idea. He's won a few games. We could do worse than having Bill Self for our coach.

Take a few minutes and compare stats between Calipari and Self. On paper, they're the same person. Their records are practically identical. Self has lost one more tournament game than Calipari. They've both won one National Championship.

“Somewhere in the world there is a defeat for everyone. Some are destroyed by defeat, and some made small and mean by victory. Greatness lives in one who triumphs equally over defeat and victory.” John Steinbeck

@nuleafjhawk Now I think you're taking this personally ...

@icthawkfan316 - "But please stop acting as if we've 'fallen off'."

So, we must ascend then. One title every 25 years being the status quo.

So here's the real question - is it effective in this state of college basketball to coach an elite major school with a system that takes 2-3 years to master?

@justanotherfan Well, consider that 3 of the 4 schools that made the Final 4 this year were comprised of non-OAD players. The one exception is Kentucky, who put together perhaps the greatest recruiting class ever, and they've needed clutch 3 pointers to win their last 3 games. They very well may win it all, but that type of class isn't going to be available very often, and certainly not available to more than one school every so often (Duke's class next year features 5 ESPN top 20 players). Last year's Final 4 (Louisville, Wichita St., Michigan, Syracuse) did not feature OAD talent. 2012 had a Kentucky team full of OADs win the title, but KU, Ohio St., & Louisville didn't have OADs on their roster.

So I think the likely answer isn't to change the system, but rather the players. HEM & others have advocated not going after kids that are presumed OADs. Perhaps that is part of the answer to HEM's question "is there a cure for what ails us in March?" The alternative that we see is to be able to build Kentucky-esque recruiting classes. That seems to be the only formula that succeeds without having 2-4 year guys, and I wouldn't think it wise for anyone else to count on being able to do that on a consistent basis.

@HighEliteMajor Lol - I am!! I just told you I'm a poor loser. And we just lost ten times!!

I can think of a parallel on the fire Bill Self question.

Doug Collins coached the Bulls to the conference finals in 1989 where they lost to Detroit. Each year he coached the team they got progressively better. This of course coincided with the maturation of Scotty and Michael.

After the conference championship series he was fired. Of course they hired Phil, you know the rest of the story.

As a raised and reared Chicagoan I was shocked. I had only seen the Bulls as a pitiful team, giving away tickets, nothing going good. And now they're consistently making the playoffs. This is great, and you fire the coach?

Now it may be a weak comparison, but it may not be.

I'm not a believer in firing Bill Self. He's had us in two championship games in 6 years. But he is going to have his mettle challenged in the changing landscape of college basketball.

http://www.tristatesportsguys.com/basketball/bill-self-profile-of-a-bad-coach/ ↗

@icthawkfan316

I agree, but here's the thing - Calipari is a constant. The other teams change from year to year.

Going back to 2006 (the beginning of the OAD era), here are the coaches that have been to the Elite 8, along with the number of Elite 8's (72 total).

Those with one fleeting appearance - Anderson, Brady, Capel, Dixon, Huggins, Kent, Larranaga, G. Marshall, F. Martin, McKillop, A. Miller, Ollie, Pearl, Ryan, Smart, Thompson III, B. Williams. That's 17 right there for the guys that have one trip.

Two trips - Barnes (yes, Rick Barnes), Beilein, Boeheim, Drew (yes, Scott Drew), Krzyzewski, Brad Stephens, Wright.

Three trips - Calhoun, Howland, Izzo, Matta, Sean Miller

Four trips - Rick Pitino and Bill Self

Five trips - Roy Williams

Six trips - Billy Donovan

Seven trips - John Calipari

Simply put, he's always there. In the last 9 years, since the OAD rule has really taken off, Calipari has always been around in the E8. 7 trips in 9 seasons is quite good. Coach K and Jim Boeheim (two great coaches) have as many trips as Rick Barnes and Scott Drew.

Calipari has done it year after year after year at two different schools regardless of who stayed, who left and who everybody else got. The only other coach with that level of consistency is Billy Donovan, although Calipari can match him with titles tonight.

If it takes 2-3 years to incubate your system, about the best you can do is what Self, Williams, Pitino and Izzo have done. You can get to 3-5 E8's in 9 years. But if you want to be there year after year after year, I think you have to have a system that can be captured quickly so that you can maximize your available talent every single year.

Isn't that what we want anyway - to have the best possible team every year?

@icthawkfan316

I was fortunate enough to have the very best coach during my youth. I absolutely put him on the level of Wooden. Maybe better. My coach went 10 years of basketball coaching without suffering a loss. Believe it or not. He didn't lose a game until he got stuck with me and the band of gypsies that were with me. He eventually even made us winners.

He had only one magic gift that counted more than all the tactical skills, practice skills and game coaching of any of the coaches in this conversation. He couldn't recruit like Calipari, he couldn't develop like Self, and he couldn't game coach like Izzo.

But what he did know how to do was mentor players. That's why after tonight's game, I'll phone him up still... he's approaching 80 years of age. He has players calling him every week from all over the globe.

If you want to find an issue with Self, look no further than the sex photo Naadir posted online. No player can do that who has total respect for his coach. I would have rather castrated myself than humiliate myself in front of my mentor. This should explain where the problem is.

My coach got his start from coaching boys at a boys' farm. He took all the troubled kids, and within a short time he not only had them playing excellent basketball, he had them doing everything they could to turn their lives around because it would kill them to dissatisfy their coach. I was in the same boat. I was a troubled kid until I met this man and to this day I continue to thank him for turning my life around. And though his health is not good, he made a long travel to come visit me last fall after the birth of my son. He said he wanted to be the first coach to recruit him.

We all seem to think that winning a few games in March makes these guys great. It has nothing to do with greatness.

We can all question coaching philosophies and what not. But what makes a coach great is his ability to mentor players and create a following of believers. Start there and build confidence. Build confidence and grow self-worth. Grow self-worth and develop a work ethic. Develop a work ethic and learn a philosophy. Learn a philosophy and master execution. Master execution and never lose. Never lose and always win!

Now you have a great coach.

@JRyman I've read most of these posts. I'm not real sure about any pills. But I read this piece and agree with some of it, but the poster to this article is really bitter. His assessment of Withey is wrong. I'm not sure about his BMac assessment, but can say with some certainty that he's wrong. But I do get the overall gist of this scathing article. Bill Self is inconsistent and not sure at all what the hell he's doing when it matters most.

I love Self and want him around for a very long time. But, who can you get to take his place? I think the responses are correct, KU fans want a bit too much when compared to some other great coaches. I don't question Self's inability or failure to win another NC, but I just question his coaching decisions more and more each game. He's tight lipped and will not say a damn thing about off-court issues. He'll never say a word of anything impacting his players or program, and maybe rightly so, but it would at least give some people pause. If we look at this season's ending performance against Stanford, there's a lot of questions Self will never answer. I wonder what take aways he learned from the Stanford game? Doesn't matter, he's the head coach and doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks. Self may be a bit arrogant at times and seems to forget some things about his coaching. Maybe he's been going through some personal crap, but we'll never know.

@drgnslayr Good story. Sounds like you were quite lucky to have this guy as your coach. I'm curious as to why I was tagged in it. Not that I don't appreciate your post, just wondering what in particular I might have written that made you think of me.

As to the sex photo of Naadir, I don't know that it's an important distinction to you or not, but from what I gathered on twitter he wasn't the one that posted it. It originated from someone else's account. No idea how it got out so I don't want to defend or criticize him more than he deserves. Could have been the girl sent it to someone, who sent it to someone, and on & on until someone decided to post it online. Or Naadir could have been sending it to his buddies who did the same thing. We don't know. What we know is he was naked with a woman and took a "selfie". I don't know that him doing that, in and of itself, speaks at all to Self or Naadir's level of respect towards him. These are 18-22 year old kids treated like Gods in the college towns that they play and are living in the digital age. This could spiral into a whole other discussion on whether these kids have to know what they're getting into when they come to a place like Kansas and they must hold themselves above reproach. I think those are judgments I'm not comfortable making.

@JRyman

From our paper yesterday:

http://theadvocate.com/sports/pelicans/8827998-123/jeff-witheys-growth-has-pleased ↗

@konkeyDong Examples on changes have been posted many times but you either failed to read or acknowledge.

Implement variety of zone defenses, 1-3-1, 2-3, triangle and 2. Teach them to the players, practice on a regular basis and execute on game day. Keep teams off balance, mix and match your d

Implement more pressing. It was a pity that we had such a talented, athletic and deep team but Self did not press more. He did it on couple of occasions against WV and Stanford but by that time both games were out of reach.

Create more drive and dish in your Offense, stop doing the same weave over and over again.

@icthawkfan316

I was just posting and it looked like most the conversations were with you. Hope you didn't mind!

These kids have to be smarter than that. And hey... if they are old enough to make millions and millions (at least some) then they should learn to handle their stuff. The part that made it worse for me was the fact that it was a selfie.

He should have known this stuff would get loose. Maybe he was a trophy lay, or whatever... but he was the captain of this team.

Captain Selfie!

This youth thing of letting them off the hook all the time is starting to be a crutch for them. We all did things we weren't proud of when we were young... but I never did anything that brazen that could hurt a bunch of people.

But... to be honest... I might have done something that would have hurt people (even quite a bit worse) had I not been mentored.

That is why I posted my story. Before being mentored I bet I was a much bigger problem to people around me than Naadir is.

@drgnslayr

I am so thankful that during my college years we did not have digital cameras or cell phone or internet. I could have been in a lot of trouble...along with just about every body I knew. So, I will not pass judgement on Tharpe, I just wish he would be more careful and more aware of the potential consequences.

@drgnslayr Hey, it couldn't hurt recruiting. Maybe it'll help us land that elite point guard everyone's been talking about.

@KULA

That's the best come back in here for quite some time!

Bravo!

So congrats to UConn for keeping Kentucky from a ninth National Championship, but that only means UConn has officially eclipsed Kansas as a blue blood national power. I am thankful that closing song montage spared us any reference to another Kansas upset and only highlighted Wiggs, which he deserved for his season. I was afraid that the crying Kansas kid was going to become an indelible fixture in 'One Shining Moment." One the other hand, our absence in that montage only emphasizes our growing irrelevance in the National Title conversation.

@KULA

We would need to get better looking girls; the one with Tharpe was not particularly attractive.

"We had our chances to win," Calipari said. "We're missing shots, we're missing free throws. We just didn't have enough."

Is he making excuses?

Is he lying?

I'd he using coach speak?

Is he covering up his short comings?

@drgnslayr could probably say a lot, but you were very fortunate to have a mentor, you know a lot our players come here w/out one, or even a father. I hate what Tharpe did, cringe to think if that happened to a kid of mine! But, we don't know the whole story, and frankly it's not our business. I too did some dumb stuff, so thankful none of that was put out there for all to see! To look at this and think that Self is not close to the kids. Remember when the KU family rallied around TRob? FOE became a theme for our kids. Look at our academic success, the great support group that has surrounded our team. Cole came back to graduate, Ben is coming back this summer. These are all the success stories that I see from Bill Self. I guarantee as long as there are college kids, there will be slip ups, but if we're going to put that on Self put the success stories on him too!

I heard a comedian say this once, "I want to run for The President of the United States. That way all those media guys can find out what I did in college when I blacked out all those times."

I too could say that

@konkeyDong I'll stick my nose in here, even tho you directed your request for specific changes at HEM. After all, this has been a sore point of mine since long before I started posting on any boards.

I think it starts with overall coaching style. I've heard a lot of good young coaches say they don't want their demeanor affect their kids. It filters down from the top. When a coach is tight, the kids are tight. Roy was as guilty of this as anyone (Reference the 03 title game when Nick went 5/12 from the line and Kirk passed on several open 3's) but Bill's got it bad too. I remember a late season game when Naadir screwed up and Bill yelled at him for the entire timeout. Great. How does that help the team on the next play?

Bill intimidates his players with his quick hook. Ever notice that teams that upset us are free and easy with threes, while our guys are never sure if they should launch one? Like they've always got one eye on the bench? I'll stand by my assertion that Bill's early career treatment of EJ instilled a fear of failure in him that influenced him to pass on the biggest shot of his career.

Which brings me to a specific point, which you asked for--Bill doesn't make the three pointer a part of his offense. Teams with good three points shooters run plays to get them open. When's the last time you saw a Jayhawk run off a screen to get an open three?

And we should have been a GREAT three point shooting team this year. With Conner and Brannen and Naadir and Wayne and both Andrews, we should have been throwing down a dozen threes a game. But Bill just doesn't make it part of his offense.

And that brings me to Bill's refusal to use regular season minutes to develop bench guys for the tournament. This baffles me, because he did it with Cole masterfully in the Championship season. It was part of the regular rotation--Cole would come in for 4 minutes at the 12 minute mark of each half. And we all remember how that paid off in the Final Four.

I fully expected the same treatment for EJ and Jeff, but somewhere along the line, Bill lost his stomach for freshman/sophomore mistakes, even though he routinely enjoyed 20 pt leads in those two seasons. And by tournament time, he was too tight to trust his bench players, essentially choking his rotation down to six players against UNI, even though it was commonly remarked that our second five could be a Top 20 team that year.
Imagine how another 3pt shooter or 7ft shot blocker might have influenced the 10 & 11 games. AndI sure would've liked to see Brannen and Conner and Andrew White get more time to develop during the regular season. But by tourney time, Bill didn't have enough confidence to get them into the game. A couple more timely threes might've helped against Stanford.

As to specific changes, well, we should be a pressing team. We routinely enjoy an athletic advantage, but we never press that advantage. With waves of superior athletes over the course of a game, a good press will crush a less talented team. Bill's excuse that a good team will beat a press for easy baskets doesn't hold water. If that's the case, how come we never beat a press for easy baskets? Why weren't we pressing Stanford, without a real point guard, the whole game? Major coaching fail, Bill.

In terms of offense, well, Bill's offense just sucks. All the way back to Big Dub, when he was required to just muscle for position, without ever a play or pick to get him open. It's so predictable and scout-able. A Big's gonna set a pick for a guard at the top of the key. Guess what? The D switches and, PLAY OVER. Remember Sherron at the end of the MIch. State game? Bill's instructions were, "Go get it." Great. No play--just one on five. And then there's the lame weave out top when we get desperate. I haven't seen that play get a bucket since Tyshawn left.

And then there's this year and Bill's continued insistence on running the offense thru the post. Not a terrible idea with JoJo, but still--YOU'VE GOT THE BEST WINGMAN TO COME INTO THE GAME IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS!!! Draw up some plays to get him the ball moving toward the basket! In a late season game, Bill exhorted Andrew, "It's time to go! Now! Now!"

Great. How do I use that, Coach? How about drawing up a play for me? How about someone setting a pick for me?

I can't believe commentators called Andrew a no-show against Stanford cuz he only took six shots. What kind of offensive sets only produce six shots for the best player in the country. Actually, probably only produced a couple shots for him, cuz I didn't see much in Bill's offense to get him open--he pretty much had to get his own. What's he supposed to do, launch 25 footers, drive one on five against a zone. Greg Anthony called it pretty easily--get Andrew into the middle of the zone and let him go to work there. Nooo, we're gonna run our offense thru Tarik Black.

With Bill's ineptitude against the zone, I can't believe anyone e would NOT zone us. Unless you're one of those small schools we play early and it's kinda in the contract, like, "We wanna work on our man to man offense, get it?" i.e. Don't play zone.

Anyway, there's a few concrete suggestions, along with pull-my-hair-out ranting.

1. Use your athletic advantage and press.
2. Run your offense thru your best player--don't make your best player adapt to your offense.
3. Hire an assistant who knows how to run a zone offense.
   3b. Don't be afraid to play some zone. Cal almost stole the game tonight by switching to the zone.
4. Make the 3pt shot part of your offense.
5. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. RUN WITH YOUR SUPERIOR ATHLETES!!! Don't slow the game down with your Okie hokie pokie offense and let overmatched opponents catch their breath. Bill's teams don't even know HOW to run a fast break. More often than not, they screw it up.

Let's see, anything else...

My first post here, I have been reading threads since about October.
I love the red pill/blue pill analogy.
Here’s why I am a red pill guy:
I expect championships. Why? Because of the exact reason people say I shouldn’t. 30 win seasons and 10 consecutive conference championships are the building block of a championship team. Not the reason to be satisfied. Why do I keep reading that those are reasons I should be satisfied or find consolation? Those “accolades” are the precursor to underachieving when a program has this kind of sustained regular season success and disappointing early outs in the only tournament that matters in college basketball. When “blue pill” folks use UK, UNC’s and UConn's down years as a point that regular season failure is somehow the tradeoff we’d rather not have I say, exactly. KU doesn’t have down years, in the regular season. We don’t miss the tournament. We always win our conference. We should have more than one championship in the last 25 years. If I was fan of a school that did not have “blue blood” recruiting power and be considered an elite coaching destination job I would absolutely be excited about a conference championship or an Elite Eight run. I don’t have these expectations simply because I am a passionate fan. I wouldn’t have the same expectations if I lived in Iowa and Iowa State was my school. Most of these Tournament loses have been extremely disappointing to me. Not just because at the end of the game we had the lower score, it’s because we had the ability to make it to the end. Every year (besides 08 obviously) I feel like I have this prodigal child that aces his tests all year and then fails the final exam. Am I not supposed to be upset? Do I pat him on the head and say well you failed the big one but you did great on all the quizzes. You did enough to get a B but the final prevented you from that A. When Wiggins signed with KU I wasn’t excited because we were going to possibly win another BIG XII championship. My expectations shot up to National championship level. Not out in the round of 32. Same with Xavier, same with Julian.

During the tournament I saw a graphic that was sobering and made me rethink KU’s “elite” status(for the first time in my life). This elite status I believe was the biggest point to the red or blue question. I had always considered KU elite until I saw this:
Since 1990 KU was one of five schools with 10 or more Elite Eight appearances. The other four schools are definitely on my “elite” program list. UK- 13 with 3 NC’s, UNC- 12 with 3 NC’s, Duke- 10 with 4 NC’s UConn- 10 with 3 now 4 NC’s and KU- 10 with 1 NC. All four other schools had at least 3.

Now, I haven’t made any “basketball” points in this post. That will come later. I’m merely addressing my feelings about why I feel like a red pill guy. One word, “underachieving”. This underachievement is exactly why it’s okay to call out Bill Self too. Our regular season success is also exactly why I judge our over all success and national program status on National Championships.

That Is All

@That Is All Good point. It's almost like our 25 year tournament appearance streak is an embarrassment because of the lack of National Championships it's produced

It is embarrassing, right? With 24 losses, KU is the biggest tournament loser in the past 25 years.

25 straight tournaments

10 elite eights

6 final fours

4 finals

1 championship

724 W - 145 L (.833 overall since 1989-90 )

No real down years. No NCAA penalties. Two class-act HOF coaches. New branches growing off the Jayhawk coaching tree. Lots of successful graduates and some decent NBA players.

Fire Bill and retroactive fire O'l Roy and let's have a few 15-loss NIT seasons to improve that NCAA tournament loss record!

@DanR nice post!

@konkeyDong Examples on changes have been posted many times but you either failed to read or acknowledge.

Implement variety of zone defenses, 1-3-1, 2-3, triangle and 2. Teach them to the players, practice on a regular basis and execute on game day. Keep teams off balance, mix and match your d

Implement more pressing. It was a pity that we had such a talented, athletic and deep team but Self did not press more. He did it on couple of occasions against WV and Stanford but by that time both games were out of reach.

Create more drive and dish in your Offense, stop doing the same weave over and over again.

@AsadZ I haven't ignored anything. People have suggested changes. I've debated. But what posts like this do is fail to answer the question of why changes are better. Why if a system is winning about 29.5 games a year does it need to be changed? How do you spend more time implementing a variety of zones without losing value in your man-to-man D? Why is mixing up your D strategically superior to excelling at man to man? How do you create more drive and dish when players either don't touch the paint, or when they do, they don't dish? How do you explain the disconnect between the ability of previous teams to succeed in this system if the system itself is the problem? If Self really has no clue how to attack a zone, why could his teams from 2006-2013 beat zone teams regularly? If UConn has a secret that distinguishes their system from that of all other previous champions in recent years, what is it?

It's too easy and shallow to say, 'oh, if you only did XYZ, everything would be perfect'. That's my whole point. It's not enough to claim that the path not taken is automatically better. You have to show your work, so to speak. I'm not interested in 'if only's. That's the gauntlet being thrown down. Every change you make comes with its own set of risks and rewards. There are weaknesses in all strategies and opportunity costs in all choices. Address them and show me for real why it's better. Show me that you can use that criterion in a predictive manner that shows why Team A is going to beat Team B. That's what I'm asking.

I'm not at all against criticizing Self. He clearly did not develop a well rounded team with the talent at his disposal. It was a rickety juggernaut that fell to pieces the moment the lynchpin was removed.And no matter how you slice it, he flat out failed with Naadir Tharpe. Tharpe can't run Self's system to save his life. But that's the stuff that happens around the game. I just find that a lot of the time the criticism is based on assumptions with no real facts to back them up. How, when you watch a game, do you know that a coach failed to give his players the proper preparation vs the players failing to stick to game plan? No coach can greatly improve the product that he's put on the floor from the sidelines. He can run some plays and try to make things happen, but the results of those decisions is ultimately in the hands of the players. I don't claim to have any mystical ability to know what I can't know (what happens in practices, what is actually being said in TOs or in the locker room at half time, etc), but a lot of people around here seem to think they do. I also think a lot of posters are way too willing to accept what sportscasters tell them went wrong in a loss without any skepticism or thoughtfulness. For instance, you yourself had said that we didn't start pressing until the Stanford game was out of reach. That's flatly not true. We were pressing for nearly 10 minutes of the second half when we were down by 7 points. How is that out of reach? Others latched on to the 'no true point guard' comment and said that the game plan should have been to press the whole time. That might be true, but Stanford started getting by the press after about 6 minutes of it. If it was only effective for that long, why would it have been better to do it the whole game? I'm not unconvinced by this kind of stuff because I can never be satisfied, but because I think this kind of Monday Morning quarterbacking amounts to finger pointing. It doesn't give any insight, nor does it offer any real relief.

During the tournament I saw a graphic that was sobering and made me rethink KU’s “elite” status(for the first time in my life). This elite status I believe was the biggest point to the red or blue question. I had always considered KU elite until I saw this:
Since 1990 KU was one of five schools with 10 or more Elite Eight appearances. The other four schools are definitely on my “elite” program list. UK- 13 with 3 NC’s, UNC- 12 with 3 NC’s, Duke- 10 with 4 NC’s UConn- 10 with 3 now 4 NC’s and KU- 10 with 1 NC. All four other schools had at least 3.

@That Is All

That's a fair point, but why lay all of that underachievement at Self's feet? During most of that time Roy was head coach. He capped both ends of his KU career with good tournament runs but had just as many early exit years (whether or not they were upsets) as Self, without any of the glory. I think he's the bigger part of the reason why KU is short about 2 titles.

@konkeyDong Agreed. A number of those are Roy's issues and not Bill's. All KU losses at the end of the day.

I watched every minute of last nights game and I was very very impressed with UCONN and their ability to hold UK at arms length from start to finish. Great coaching, clutch shooting, great defense and to me an extremely deserving team to cut down the nets.

Watching UK I had the opposite feeling. Just seeing Coach Cal upsets me. I know that his post season record at UMASS, Memphis and now Kentucky is incredible but the guy is dirty and arrogant and after a loss (like last night) full of excuses. I know there has been a lot of Self bashing going on since the Stanford loss but I am 100% serious in saying that I would rather lose early with Bill than cheer for a team with Cal at the helm all the way to the finals.

@konkeyDong

That point of sharing the graphic was my feeling about KU’s elite status over all. Roy is very much a part of that. Right now Self is running the ship so he gets to be under the microscope for now. I think Self should absolutely get the get the glory for 08. We needed that. He made it happen. His recruits, his coaching. In my opinion he “overachieved” in 12. Ironically, going into that season I had told myself I was not going to judge for any lack of accomplishment because the talent didn’t appear to be stellar and I didn’t have faith it T Taylor. That was a great year and I was “satisfied” when it was all said and done.

Like I originally stated though. It’s about underachievement, and disappointment. 08 and 12 can’t make me forget 06, 07, 09, 10, 11, 13, and 14. I didn’t include 05 because they were Roy’s guys, but NC talent and experience none the less. Not necessarily, embarrassment, like @KULA suggests (even though I identify with almost every point he made in the post prior to mine).
As far as my criticism of self. They seem to be the same year to year. Starting with turnovers. Unforced especially. I kept hearing a lot of excuses this year about the young team. But I saw the same issues I have seen when EJ, TT, or SC were running the team. Common thread seems to be the lack of a true PG. I don’t think its coincidence that we won the NC in 08 when we had 2 outstanding PG’s sharing duties in RR and MC. Sure those guys were vets at that point in time but all of Self’s PG’s since 08 had made it to their senior year and Tharpe is a junior. I am excited about the potential of CF and FM running the show together.

@konkeyDong

" How, when you watch a game, do you know that a coach failed to give his players the proper preparation vs the players failing to stick to game plan?"

Because when its a recurring problem that spans teams comprised of different plyers it leads back to the coach who is the common denominator.

I also agree that KU is Short about two maybe three. Were not going to win them all of course.

@konkeyDong

" How, when you watch a game, do you know that a coach failed to give his players the proper preparation vs the players failing to stick to game plan?"

Because when its a recurring problem that spans teams comprised of different plyers it leads back to the coach who is the common denominator.

But when that same coach wins 83% of the time and coaches a program that in the previous 10 seasons has more NCAA tournament game wins (not titles, mind you) than any other program (and is only bested by Calipari in terms of individual coaches), I have a hard time believing he's not giving his players the tools they need to succeed on a regular basis. After all, in that span, with teams comprised of different players, they seem to be able to win at a very high and consistent clip. I don't think that a coach that doesn't teach well can accomplish that over such a large number of games. Surely you aren't suggesting that there's no variance in basketball games, right? And surely you recognize that regardless of system, there's going to be delta's that you can't cover, right?

@konkeyDong perfect!

@That Is All winning is a recurring theme w/KU, so does that reflect on the coach too?

@konkeyDong

"But when that same coach wins 83% of the time and coaches a program that in the previous 10 seasons has more NCAA tournament game wins (not titles, mind you) than any other program (and is only bested by Calipari in terms of individual coaches), I have a hard time believing he's not giving his players the tools they need to succeed on a regular basis. "

However... I believe we (Kansas) have the current record for NCAA appearances (current streak). So isn't part of that the fact that we play well before the tournament (like league play) and we've been to the tourney all 10 seasons when others' haven't?

I'd like to see someone like Jesse "crunch a bunch" of NCAA tournament numbers to give more credence to anyone's claim.

From your claim, it sounds like we are very successful in March... but what it feels like, is we are not. Feelings can be wrong, no question.

Some kind of statistical regressions and other crunches could probably make us all feel better.

Jesse... you out there?

UPDATE -

I just caught this from @DanR :

http://collegespun.com/acc/syracuse/the-25-most-successful-college-basketball-teams-of-the-21st-century-scored-by-ncaa-tournament-bracket-rules/3 ↗

This is helpful for totality... but I don't think any teams below us has made as many appearances. So we get a few extra points by having good, consistent seasons BEFORE March.

I think I'd like to see an average of all our tournaments over the past 10 years... how far do we get, on average?

Are we at the top on that category?

And if teams don't make the tournament, that doesn't count... it's just an average of advancement for teams that make it. That is one way to strictly look at March Madness performance. Should be more accurate than the article I linked to.

Surely you aren't suggesting that there's no variance in basketball games, right? And surely you recognize that regardless of system, there's going to be delta's that you can't cover, right?

That's exactly what I am suggesting. That coaching and player preparedness is how to deal with the variance. I was just making a suggestion to answer the question you posed. If you take every single game in a vacuum you cant determine whether the player's don't execute the game plan or what the coach has instilled in to their basketball IQ. But when you back away and look at trends you look for the common denominator. I think one of Self's coaching chinks in the armor does happen to be player preparedness. In my opinion it is exhibited by a trend of turnovers. Let me ask you a question. Do you feel I am off base by my turnover trend observation?

83% winning record is phenomenal. that 83% is also what makes the early outs so much more painful. I agree with @Crimsonorblue22 that this winning is a recurring theme that does reflect on the coach as well. Unfortunately its not the only recurring theme.

This isn't a fire Bill Self rant. Or a Bill self is not a good coach rant. It is to me, a what can he do to get over the hump? Obviously he is on the cusp with such an outstanding win loss percentage. its about realizing his potential and becoming one of the greatest instead of a great.

@konkeyDong

"Surely you aren't suggesting that there's no variance in basketball games, right? And surely you recognize that regardless of system, there's going to be delta's that you can't cover, right?"

Variance and Delta is exactly what I am suggesting. That coaching and player preparedness is how to deal with the variance. I was just making a suggestion to answer the question you posed. If you take every single game in a vacuum you cant determine whether the player's don't execute the game plan or what the coach has instilled in to their basketball IQ. But when you back away and look at trends you look for the common denominator. I think one of Self's coaching chinks in the armor does happen to be player preparedness. In my opinion it is exhibited by a trend of turnovers. Let me ask you a question. Do you feel I am off base by my turnover trend observation?

83% winning record is phenomenal. that 83% is also what makes the early outs so much more painful. I agree with @Crimsonorblue22 that this winning is a recurring theme that does reflect on the coach as well. Unfortunately its not the only recurring theme.

This isn't a fire Bill Self rant. Or a Bill self is not a good coach rant. It is to me, a what can he do to get over the hump? Obviously he is on the cusp with such an outstanding win loss percentage. its about realizing his potential and becoming one of the greatest instead of a great.

And if teams don't make the tournament, that doesn't count... it's just an average of advancement for teams that make it. That is one way to strictly look at March Madness performance. Should be more accurate than the article I linked to.

@drgnslayr

Why would it "not count" if team didn't even make the tournament? That's a complete failure of a season, a huge black mark on an elite program, and it should count more against any program more than losing in the first or second round. It's hard for KU fans to comprehend this, but GETTING to the tournament is actually not that easy. Calipari has only managed to do it four times in a row. Seven, if you don't count his vacated season at Memphis. To do it 25 times in a row is almost unheard of. In fact, we're only the second team to do it.

It's ridiculous to have to find ways to justify how consistently good KU has been over the past 25 years. I know great programs measure their success in losses, not wins, (and we've had some tough losses), but KU is currently 2 years' shy of the longest NCAA tournament streak ever. ↗

You Red Pill people feeling any better yet? :-)

@DanR called, OverDose

Variance and Delta is exactly what I am suggesting. That coaching and player preparedness is how to deal with the variance. I was just making a suggestion to answer the question you posed. If you take every single game in a vacuum you cant determine whether the player's don't execute the game plan or what the coach has instilled in to their basketball IQ. But when you back away and look at trends you look for the common denominator.

@That Is All

I understand where you're coming from. I'm certainly not trying to attack you. I'm trying to get at the answer. I agree that coaching covers variance to some degree, but you know it can't cover up everything. As for delta, that's being attacked where you're weak. I don't think any coach can cover all of his weaknesses either. At some point, all NCAA title winners are more lucky than good, whether it was in their original seeding, upsets in their brackets, or simply outperforming their average play (put all three together and that cover's Larry Brown's title).

So what does that say, then? Some tournament losses/upsets (by any team, not just ours) are the result of poor game planning. But they're also the result of dumb luck or bad match ups. Sometimes you can make changes as a coach to cover up weaknesses on the floor, but other times, you have too much sunk cost into a way of doing things that you simply have to accept your weaknesses and hope your strengths can overcome them. I've described that as 'leaning in'. @itchawkfan316 and I went back and forth quite a bit on that subject. In the pursuit of that knowledge, how can we learn to tell the difference? What are the signs? What is the meaningful data in that regard? 'Same coach' is a start, but the same coach that wins a lot of games both in the regular season and in the dance (and a title and runner up to boot), so how do we square the circle?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Self doesn't have embarrassing losses on his resume. But there are a lot of coaches that do, so we have to dig deeper. One thought I've had might simply be that Self doesn't so much underachieve in the tournament as he 'overachieves' in the regular season. What I mean by that is because the NCAA relies on RPI to seed the tournament rather than a more predictive efficiency-based metric, there's room to game the system so that you appear to be a stronger team than you are. Consider KU spent the majority of the season on top of the RPI for playing a ridiculously tough schedule despite racking up a lot losses to good teams. The Big 12 finished on top of the RPI in the regular season, despite having no really great teams (everyone was out after the Sweet 16). RPI over-rewards for playing good, but not great teams, and over-punishes for playing bad teams. KU beat a lot of good teams, but no great teams, as well. So one explanation for why we've lost to bad teams is because we've managed to maintain the appearance of not having down years without the benefit of being challenged for position throughout the regular season. I'm not saying by any means that that's a definitive explanation for the data, I'm just throwing out a potential way of making sense of it.

It could truly be that Self just doesn't do good prep for the tournament and has been lucky to have the successes he's had, but I think consistency undermines that argument. If that is true, though, what do you fix? What are the data points beyond the simple fact of losses because losses aren't a predictive feature. We can't learn much from the raw fact that Team A lost to Team B. Those are the kinds of ideas I want to explore.

As for the specific question of turnovers, I don't deny that this team turned the ball over too much, as did last year's team, and the team before that, etc etc. Actually this years team averaged about the same # of to's as the title team and the runner up team of Self's tenure. The two highest TOs per game teams were 04-05 and 05-06, but Self's teams have consistently been in the bottom 3rd for TOs per game. So that could have something to do with preparedness in general, but that could also have to inexperience in a pass-heavy system or over-reliance on 'combo' guards (scoring point guards, rather than pass-first guards). The trick to making an actual point about turnovers is to find the tempo-free TO rate and compare it to past champions (and FF participants) and see if there's anything there. I know I won't get to that tonite, but I'll see if I can sometime this week. So we might be on to something, though.

@drgnslayr

@DanR is correct. Would a teacher just leave a homework assignment that you didn't do off your average for a class? Would an employer pay your wages for days you didn't show up to work? Is a (hypothetical) team that made the tournament one year in the past 10 and went 3-1 really better than KU because of their 75% win rate in the dance? Or if every season where we've lost to a significantly lower seeded team (more than one seed difference), would you feel better if we'd failed to go dancing instead? It certainly doesn't/wouldn't 'feel' that way to me.

Will Obamacare be covering either one of these pills or will it be strictly out of pocket?

Will Obamacare be covering either one of these pills or will it be strictly out of pocket?

Given that tournament losses are birth control around my house, I think they'll have to cover it.

@konkeyDong
I don't feel attacked at all and didn't mean to come across that way.

I don't believe I would subscribe to the overachieving theory simply because of the recruiting talent and Self's ability to "reload" year after year. I do understand your point that the system can be a set up to a false sense of security entering the NCAA Tournament or a seed that can cause an unfavorable matchup. I also agree that Bill Self is not the only coach to suffer embarrassing losses. Just look at Coach K in the last few Tournaments.

I do like your "leaning in" theory as well. I just think that when the problem is not taking care of the ball, whether its sloppy passing on the perimeter, tightening up when being pressured or not pulling up on a break when you don't have numbers the point swings are just too much to overcome. Also those weakness are also the type that are most vulnerable to the high seed upset. The teams that usually don't have the talent of a KU usually are the ones to press, scrap for loose balls and out hustle. Frustrate and take advantage of mentally unprepared teams. Mix that with a three point specialist and an upset is born. What is the data, turnover ratio is where I'd start. I will have to dig for that. But its not always the amount. Its the timing. Its the momentum killer. That falls into the basketball IQ category. Almost an intangible that you can only glean from watching the game. Something raw data cant tell the story. Understanding the possession and coveting the ball cant always be judged by stats. Taking a bad shot is also considered a turnover by some which is not in the stat book. To me that was the biggest deficiency of Collins, Taylor and EJ. Tharpe was so bad how can not having him mentally prepared by his junior year not be a hit on the staff. The thing about the other three PG's I just mentioned was they could score, and singlehandedly win a game by scoring. So much that the momentum killing was either over looked or just plain forgiven. I can deal with that from any position except the PG. Personally, I wish Self would get a PG who cant score but has mad IQ, and facilitate the other 4 McDonalds all americans on the courts scoring. I realize that was just hyperbole but not far from really. I think that is the answer to your question of what do you fix. I think you devote more time in practice to teaching IQ. Situations. Understanding the "down and distance" if you will. Now, obviously I have no idea what Self coaches, how he coaches or how much time is devoted to what. This is just my assessment on watching the games year after year.

All I see some of you doing is trying to get to a "root" cause for tournament losses explained away in some simplistic fashion. My whole point is it is a complex analysis when you take each single team, and its issues in a given season...like 06 or 07, or 09, 10, 11. Or how about 2012, when we simply lost the final game. Why did the overall No.1 Jayhawks in 2011 (MorrisHawks) show up and NOT be able to defend to their season-long FG% defensive numbers? Why were they unable to shoot 3s to their season long 3%? I actually dont want to give too much credit to Shaka Smart, other than he got our guys out of what we do...My bigger issue is with our own players, especially the seniors + juniors that made up 2011 squad.

Now considering the 2013 team: I saw too many flaws in season-long stats to think we would instantly change who we were, when it mattered the most, and on top of losing our most dynamic player (Embiid).

Self does change his system, as we had a very dumbed-down offense, just because of all the newbies trying to execute it.

People forget the 08champs had over 55plays in the halfcourt sets, that made them capable of absolutely demolishing any zone-D thrown at them. Why did we struggle against zones this year? Guys not on the same page, frosh inconsistencies, and the failure of Tharpe cannot be overlooked.

Bottom line: Blame Self, if you want...but I cannot get away from the poor execution and inexperience I saw out there in 2013. I dont think OADs are our solution--they automatically "cap" our playbook. Too many frosh cause a miscarriage or dilution of Self's principles...until we are just another above average team with a bigname on our chest, but can be beaten a variety of waays (length, physicality, zones). It used to be that none of those things bothered our more experienced teams. My brain doesnt let me make it so simple as to just 'blame Self'. That feels like an analytical cop-out.

@KULA Just a note to you that I really like your post. You took the time to make your case, I think more on this thread than I've ever seen before...and I thought it a great read, as well as very compelling food for thought. I think it would be awesome if Self saw this whole thread and picked up on the critique-vibe. KU fans watch a lot of basketball, different styles, and different coaches. I do agree with a lot of what you say, for sure. I also like Self's stuff, if executed competently (like the 08 guys did the best).

@DanR Good summary. While I would like to have more tournament success, I still remember growing up, listening to games from 1975-1982 and those years felt like forever because that was 5th grade to my junior year in high school. KU was not a factor nationally. KU was not on TV. Ever.

Larry and Danny really brought about the silver age of basketball at Kansas, and it hasn't ended yet. I'd say 1983 was a transition year, and then it really got started in 1984-1985 and only had the blip in 1989 for the Askew infraction.

@ralster Thanks--appreciate it! I enjoy reading your posts too.

@konkeyDong Now who's copping out? Can I prove my ideas would work? Can I show my work? No, of course not. Because I'm not coaching the team--Duh! You can get as arcane and esoteric with your analysis as you want, but the simple fact is, we keep getting upset by teams we should beat.

Posters keep throwing up the 80+ winning percentage and wins per year. So what? That all goes down the drain if you can't dispatch a lesser team in the tournament. Ask UConn fans if the care how many regular season games they won this year or in 2011. As far as I'm concerned, winning 29.5 games a year doesn't mean a lot if you keep getting upset in the tournament. And I mean really upset. I'd have no problem with Bill if he lost to Syracuse of Florida this year. But to take the court with a roster full of future NBAers and lose to a team with none--that's coaching, plain and simple.

As far as Roy vs Bill, well, Roy didn't continually get knocked out of the tournament by extremely lower seeds. How many times did Roy go in as a #1 or 2 seed and get knocked out by a team seeded 8 or 9 slots lower than him? That's my problem with Bill. Any objective observer would say that Bill just doesn't do a good job of getting his team prepared for tournament games.

I'll say 2 final things:

1. Beware of the "green" (envy) pill of envy. Our team had serious, season long issues, that other Self teams would easily surpass. And that got worse without Embiid. I went back and watched the ENTIRE KU vs. 15seed EKY game, and it was a 1 possession game until about 4min left in the game. Think about this: We lose to EKY in the 1st round IF Jamari Traylor doesnt go for 18-and-15!!!!

2. I wish Bill Self could have a "town hall"/"answer the critics" type of discussion...maybe with a panel of 3 journalists asking questions. I got no stomach for listening to whiny fans call in and bumble their way around their "question" which is often just their observational statement. I cringe with some callers.

Have the journalists ask Self: Why we dont throw changeup defenses early and often? It could absolutely achieve Self's own principle of "disrupting the other guy". NEVER let the other team get comfortable. Why dont we run set plays actually FOR a 3att? Other than the late-clock, situational chop play, our 3att's are all off kick-outs, or are self-created by the player (Wiggins or Tharpe). We actually ran 3screens for Frankamp vs. Stanford, and he delivered...but why not for Wiggins all game long? Selden? Or, how about the slightly inflammatory "why is Ellis soft, and not an above-the-rim player?" And finally: Will the PG position next season be an OPEN competition, or will we be blindly loyal to the senior? Enquiring minds want to know. We think our Tourney performance depends on the answers...

RCJH

@konkeyDong Now who's copping out? Can I prove my ideas would work? Can I show my work? No, of course not. Because I'm not coaching the team--Duh! You can get as arcane and esoteric with your analysis as you want, but the simple fact is, we keep getting upset by teams we should beat.

Posters keep throwing up the 80+ winning percentage and wins per year. So what? That all goes down the drain if you can't dispatch a lesser team in the tournament. Ask UConn fans if the care how many regular season games they won this year or in 2011. As far as I'm concerned, winning 29.5 games a year doesn't mean a lot if you keep getting upset in the tournament. And I mean really upset. I'd have no problem with Bill if he lost to Syracuse of Florida this year. But to take the court with a roster full of future NBAers and lose to a team with none--that's coaching, plain and simple.

As far as Roy vs Bill, well, Roy didn't continually get knocked out of the tournament by extremely lower seeds. How many times did Roy go in as a #1 or 2 seed and get knocked out by a team seeded 8 or 9 slots lower than him? That's my problem with Bill. Any objective observer would say that Bill just doesn't do a good job of getting his team prepared for tournament games.

@KULA Well, if providing data to back up assertions is considered 'copping out' in your book fine, I'm copping out. You don't have to be crowned head coach to demonstrate that your ideas work. You just have to be able to show that others who are doing the things you propose are having more consistent success. Is that too onerous a burden for you? Take, for instance, your point about Self yelling at players throughout a TO. I've seen nearly every D1 coach in the world do this. It's the norm. When coaches don't do this, it's noteworthy. If that is truly something that hurts Self's performances, why aren't Jim Calhoun, Billy Donovan, John Calipari, et al affected by the same problem for seemingly doing the same thing? That's what I mean by show your work. It's not enough to assert that something is true, you have to be able to show something to back it up. If backing up claims with real data is too 'esoteric' for you, so be it, but I think anyone that completed high school should be able to do this with some proficiency.

As for Roy's record in the tournament, he was upset by a significantly lower see in 1990, 1992, 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998, and was seeded lower than a 4 seed on two of his non-upset early round exits. Self, by comparison, has lost to significantly lower seeds in 6 of 11 trips, but has also never been seeded worse than a 4 seed. 8/14 in upsets/early round exits vs 6/11 when you have a title and a runner vs 2 runners up to show for it I think is splitting hairs. Can we say they're both bad tournament coaches :) Sorry that you don't like Self's style of ball, but any objective observer can look at the data and tell you that Self's system in and of itself isn't the problem, or that at least, there's more too it than simply coming up with a clever pejorative like Okie Hokie Pokie.

Here's how I see Bill Self's gameplan evolution: He played for Eddie Sutton (Okie ball was defense, and 55point grinder, walk-it-up type of methodical pace...think of midmajors that play that way now to limit the other teams offensive chances). He learned as an assistant under Larry Brown at KU...(Larry Brown has made some prideful and praising comments about Self's system at KU...probably gave him the coaching "itch" again, seeing variations of his own teachings being used by Self?). He was a Big10 coach x 3 yrs at Illini, and had to face Izzo, and Self's KU has been beaten 3 times by Izzo...so the "toughness" thing has been burned into him. Hates "soft" play. Could it be that Self's system is hardest for KU players who do not have the same type of aggressive personality that Self did as a player, and certainly has as a coach? And finally, Self has had to resort to subtle changes (breakdowns, really) of his offensive system, when the set plays werent working, he was able to tell Tyshawn (& saw Sherron do it also, on his own volition) simply dribble-drive and get to the rim for a bucket or a foul/and-1 opportunity. As Self said in 2012, Tyshawn Taylor was about half of KU's offense, it seemed. And Self sorely lamented that EJ couldnt continue that attack dog-PG persona. But that wasnt EJ's mentality. Nor is it Naadir's. I will stop short of saying that Sherron and Tyshawn "taught" Self to go to dribble-drive penetration since they were so good at it...because I recall Self riding B.Rush endlessly (starting in 2006-7) about attacking and penetrating the paint...no different than he told BMac and Wiggins (&Selden). Rush did try, but basically exposed to the world his frosh year that he "couldnt go left", something that took 2yrs to improve.

SO, going back to the big picture... the vicious question becomes: How far do you keep trying to teach & execute your system, vs. modifying it to suit the personnel. When do you throw much of it out the window, as he did in 2012, and resort to playground dribble-drive? For 2012, it was the right move, as Tyshawn was unguardable. It may have been the right move for 2013, and Wiggins HAD to be aggressive in order to get trips to the FT line. Mason did the same to Duke, when there was very little KU offense installed by early Nov. There has been hot debate that Self doesnt adjust the playstyle enough. It can be argued endlessly, that competent execution of Self's stuff yields the better results (30+ wins), but maybe that doesnt leave enough legs in a player to duplicate it consistently by Madness time?

One thing I think Self is correct about is the defensive mentality. I know it maybe broke EJ (who could not outplay Brady defensively), although to his credit, EJ did improve. Basically, if we cannot slow down the other team, we are NO better than RoyBall: score in the 80s and still lose. Twice. I, personally, dont want that unpredictable style of ball. UNC proved it again, Paige hot from 3, but UNC falls to IowaState who simply was aggressive enough to exploit UNCs weak D.

And, Im going to have to side with Self on the toughness thing: Ellis had his problems in that dept. UNC bigs have that issue ever since Hansbrough left. Give me Aldrich, Arthur, DJackson, Thomas Robinson, and what Embiid and Traylor are beginning to show. Give me what RussRob, Chalmers, Sherron, Brady, Tyshawn, and Wiggins showed defensively. And we see beginnings of that in Selden and Mason. When Self called out the Twins about being "soft" (major reason Izzo bounced us in 2009), they themselves realized he was right, and to their credit responded beautifully. Marcus actually took it too far a couple of times (in retaliation, to be fair...). Honestly, Ellis has work to do in "finding" his on-court persona that can allow him to execute what he knows he must--he certainly has the talent and the smarts. Just needs to find the 'nasty'.

@ralster

Spot on. All of it.

And Ellis should be playing ball in the Bronx this summer on pavement and chain nets. Come back in the fall a little banged up, but a heck of a lot tougher after having his manhood challenged all summer.

Then Ellis would dominate for the year and enter into the draft as a 1st round pick.

As he is now, he already has a huge reputation for playing soft (especially on defense). If he came back from summer ball with one or two good facial scars, he would buy some cred even before playing another game.

Self needs some guards that play like Napier and Boatright. Those guys can d up.. not only stopping tough driving guards... picking their pockets in the meantime.

It would really be something if (someday) we were so good at guard we looked forward to March and having a huge advantage over every team we play because our 1 and 2 had kryptonite running through their veins in the spring.

I'm tired of going into March wondering if our guards can handle the challenge. When was the last time we didn't have that worry? '08? Maybe a bit longer with Sherron?

I'm tired of going into March wondering if our guards can handle the challenge. When was the last time we didn't have that worry? '08? Maybe a bit longer with Sherron?

@drgnslayr Actually, I felt pretty good in 2012 with Tyshawn and EJ by tournament time. It helped to have Withey in there to fix their defensive mistakes though!

@HighEliteMajor You make valid points, truly you do. However, the way you say those things makes you seem like a grumpy old man. That's my red pill and I'm taking it.

End of season sad legs (and back); seasonlong quick yank of talented newbies. Regardless of Xs and Os, those two items encase much of the failures of many BIll Self squads to play to their seedings in the NCAA Tournaments. From the Miles/Lankford/Simien squads thru 2014, those two factors appear to be constants.

@Lulufulu85 You are clearly a blue pill guy. No shame in that.

After the Stanford game, you were "ALL CAPS" upset with my criticism.

Why don't you defend coach Self, then? Tell me what he did right against Stanford. Sit down, analyze the game, and tell why his game plan was a winner. Tell me why it was his players that lost the game.

And when you do, don't reference "missed shots." Coach Self was very clear after the game that our shots in the post were highly contested. And that we always had a hand in our face. Tell me why his strategy and scheme were not the problem. Tell me why his best player gets 6 shots the entire game? Tell me why we see Kentucky shift to a zone defense in the NC game, completely change the momentum after UConn was up 15? Tell me why Calipari can make such a change, and Self can't? Tell me why Self continued to play Tharpe? Tell me why our zone offense is so stagnant?

If you want to defend coach Self, then defend him.

@HighEliteMajor You just swished about 6 straight HEM. ++++++1...or damn close.

Why did a Self-coached team (2008) demolish opposing zone defenses with ease, while another Self-coached team (2013), got really upended by zone-D's? This 2013 team just didnt have it. Face the facts, face the stats (bad D stats most glaring: Just win the 2 games we scored 83+pts, and we likely are a 1seed, with a different path.)

THIS TEAM DID NOT HAVE IT, for a variety of reasons. Add the fact that the junior PG seems to crack under pressure (unpredictably). Got to have PTPers. Cannot enter the Madness going 3 of 6 your last 6 games. Nothing but a poor prognosticator.

You can "beat up" on Coach Self...OR, one can be "keenly interested" in how this team is prepared, looks, and plays next season. It's Bill Self's situation to fix. He's the $52million dollar man. I'm not a blind Self-believer, as we can easily see other successful coaches and systems are out there, but ya know, they get their ass beat too. Look at AZ, Syracuse, FL, KY, MichSt. All beat. No prize. And even with Jabari Parker, I went and checked that BlueDevil's pulse--they were dead and gone before anybody. Weak. I do think Self's system is "top3" IF it's executed competently. KU's execution this year was very spotty, to say the least. I want to see better data next season, period.

I dont buy the "tired legs" excuse as a system-wide problem (while it may be an issue for a player here or there, like Sherron's pulled groin his final Madness, ending with the sluggish showing vs. UNI). I dont buy it, because we saw BETTER basketball being played in the E8 and Final4 this year by teams that play staunch defense. Other teams are doing it, and we supposedly have Hudy and all this marvelous conditioning, yet our guys are going to be weak down the stretch? I dont buy that as an excuse. The problem is mental, if anything. Or its a hunter (midmajor, no-name school) vs. the hunted (blueblood with N.A.M.E. across their chest..)

Well, are we tired of being someone else's "trophy" on their wall? Tired of being the "stuffed jayhawk head" mounted above the small trophy case of who-dat teams?

@ralster

Nice to see you post on this. I like when your posts are more in depth.

Yes... the tired legs argument shouldn't work for any D1 player. Come on, these kids are 19! They should only get tired for a few seconds then be recovered to hit hard again.

Okay... they want to be tired, then let's go back to the full on boot camp. Let's grind these guys into shape. Self shouldn't have back down off of boot camp. It's a great tool to build character in a team and gain some early team cohesion.

And if top tier recruits won't come to Kansas because of boot camp, we don't want them. Talent really isn't worth anything if the attitude isn't in the right place.

This theme has been beaten to a pulp like a rented Missouri mule. Can we put this thread to a merciful end and start a new thread if there is enough interest left? It is a PIA to scroll to the bottom when accessing the forum from a cell phone or tablet.

@JayHawkFanToo Yes! I've OD'ed on red pills!!!!

I'd like to add one more opinion before the thread closes. I believe our consternation involves a combination of early outs (3's shouldn't lose to 14's and 1's shouldn't lose to 9's, etc), the number of early outs in a given period, the overall lack of NC's compared to other elite programs, and the national perception that KU underperforms in the tournament. As someone pointed out, no one questions Coach K's credentials when he loses to a 14 in the first game, or that he has lost early a couple of times, recently. Why would they? He has coached Duke to 4 NC's.

As fans of an elite program, arguably the program that fathered the the other elite programs, we certainly know the Kansas tradition is valid, but here in the hinterlands, we may be suffering a bit of self doubt. In 2008, KU was the fourth of the #1 seeds, but I was confident that that team would win; I just didn't expect we would beat UNC by so much. It should have been obvious we had a good chance, but we are in the middle of the country, and the reporters wanted to enjoy Rick Pitino's patter (Q: Are there any weaknesses on the Carolina team? A: Well, Roy's not the best dresser. )

KU does not need to beat its breast. It just needs to keep playing top tier basketball. There are still NC's to be won. Why shouldn't Kansas win some of them? Why not, indeed.

@EdwordL

"I just didn't expect we would beat UNC by so much."

We had something to prove in that game. That game represents one of the few times WE carried a chip into a game since maybe Danny and the Miracles in the '88 finals. There was a lot of talk going back and forth concerning Roy and Kansas. Fans made sure our guys understood certain pieces of history concerning Roy and Kansas and why it was absolutely critical that we beat Roy.

The only time I've experienced that much vitriol with an opponent was with our rival Mizzou.

What gave us such a lopsided victory was the fact that the UNC players had nothing pushing their buttons to jack them up for that game. That's why we came out and murdered them from the get go.

It was a reversal of what we often face from these lower ranked teams in March.

@ralster Ah, terrific point. "Why did a Self-coached team (2008) demolish opposing zone defenses with ease, while another Self-coached team (2013), got really upended by zone-D's? This 2013 team just didnt have it."

Which goes to my point on our zone offense and our defensive inadequacies.

Look, a team of Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh would destroy any college zone. Why? They are better players.

On a continuum, 2008 was better than this year's team.

So, do you run the same "stuff" with the 2013-14 Jayhawks as you would with Lebron James' team? Or with the experienced bunch we had in 2008?

That's all I'm saying. And your example was very helpful. You can't run a spread offense if your quarterback isn't accurate. You can't stick with man to man defense when you have two black holes in your starting crew.

You stay in man to man and you are an historically bad defensive team (under Self)? Is that rational?

You can pass the ball around the perimeter looking for entry passes against Stanford, with a poor three point shooting team, missing your best post player, and against a team with bigger guys. Or you can adjust your attack.

Your best player gets six shots. Six. How do you get Wiggins open? Screen against the zone aggressively to create open looks. Move him to different spots. Change angles in which he cuts to receive the ball (for example, cut from baseline to wing).

See, your statement is essentially one that figuratively throws up its hands and says, we can't win (envisioning Adrian in Rocky III).

There are other options than just sticking with Self ball. I suggested one before the tourney. I said that we would not win playing Self ball without Embiid. I suggested we play a UNC type game - fast, create more possessions, focus on offense, etc.

I ask this, as I have asked of others -- please give me a comprehensive defense of Self's offensive attack against Stanford. Tell me why the approach was sound. I am truly all ears.