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What are our chances in Waco?

We’ll be loaded for bear. Ha! We good

I like our chances. We are better than we were during that loss in Lawrence. Bears are showing their typical dive into the second half of the season. They don't have a proven big man. They rely too much on the three. It's catching up and tonight exposed some of their weaknesses. They have no inside game. They have a small ball mentality that grinds other teams. OU didn't do too bad tonight. They just don't have fire power and they do not have inside game either. This Baylor team is not that good. Tonight, if not for the Butler kid, they lose.

You know what Baylor has though? Great team unity. these guys have an identity. They are all committed to playing their hearts out for each other. Not sure our boys have coalesced to that stage yet.

@rockchalkwyo said in More than we can BEARS...:

We’ll be loaded for bear. Ha! We good

Nice pun, I like it

@drgnslayr

I like our chances.

Undefeated on the road in conference play. How this team responded in Morgantown was the DNA of a very good team.

Unlike the first matchup KU is exclusively playing 4 guards now. That's a big difference to this matchup. Also Devon/Marcus were hurt. Devon seems to be trending to 100% health and Marcus hasn't reinjured his ankles of late which I think we have clearly seen from his elite defense in the past few weeks.

Our Coach is one of the best in "revenge games". Not many teams in Big-12 history have swept the Jayhawks under Self. KU gets an extra day of rest and preparation for them.

This is the ultimate test for our leaders Devon, Doke & Marcus. I think the game ultimately is decided on how good all 3 play. We need our complimentary players Ochai, Dave, Isaiah & Christian to play within themselves. This feels like the NCAA Championship game a month early

@Bosthawk

This Jayhawk team has that too though. At this point if your as good KU/Baylor have been your team is clicking

@BeddieKU23 Just (scoffs) OSU has swept KU during Bill’s tenure if I remember correctly.

@dylans

Once in 17 years? Making my point right? Self is deadly at avoiding season sweeps

I'm a Jayhawk right on down to my toenails. So this is a tough one. Why? Because Baylor is the x-axis team I've always dreamed of. They get my philosophy on where the game is going. I think Drew started following my rants on this and bought in because I didn't see this coming from him. He won me over as a coach with this team.

Okay... I have that out of my system. Now... how we leave Waco with a W...

I do think we need a strategy to win this game. We need to catch Drew off guard and make him change strategies during the game. This has always been his weakness before, so why won't he still have that weakness.

How do we attack Baylor? Inside game? If we do, we are trading our 2s against their 3s. I'm skeptical that will work against an efficient trey offense like Baylor has.

I have an idea. Let's force Baylor into our game pace. Let's go against what we have done all year. We've been one of the slowest offenses in America. Let's change that. At least, let's appear we are changing that. Curious? My idea is to attack Baylor where they are strongest... attack their nifty footwork. We need to control the boards and we need to pass out quickly off defensive boards. If, by chance, we can get some run outs, great! If we can't... great! We keep pushing tempo and we take out their legs. We have an extra day of rest preparing for this game. Both teams have some depth to run. Let's run. A Baylor team that gets tired at the end is a team that can no longer hit treys. We win at the end because of attrition. We keep feeding the post because we will trade our easy baskets in the paint against their missed treys. We just have to keep pushing the ball. Move up the tempo. And when we are on offense we have to set a ton of ball screens. Those take energy to defend. We will have to use everyone in this game including Enaruna. We've got to use him where he can score... on drives to his left. Doesn't mean he has to score. He just has to make the ball cuts to potentially score. Baylor will be playing off scouting reports. Good. We have to make everyone of our guys a threat to score.

Make this game like the Dayton game. Push. Doke's defense in the post will be the difference because we will make Baylor beat us from the trey line.

Then.. we HAVE TO guard the trey! We have to play that nagging high-energy defense Nova always plays against us.

We need this win. Not just for the Big 12 title.... for March. I could see us facing Baylor in the title game this year. We need to psyche them out like they used to be. That was always a big way we beat them because they never believed they could beat us.

This will have to be our biggest grind game all year. It will be a war of wills. We can do it!

@drgnslayr I think Self is thinking the same way. Looks like we’ve been pushing it more recently. Our pace has been way up the last two games. The goal of these last two games seems to have been to get our guys comfortable pushing the pace and scoring freely. (I know our opponents have also influenced that).

Also, this: 🐦 View Tweet?s=21

@benshawks08

Pace of play changed because ISU/OU are top 110 nationally and top 50 in average possession on offense. They both struggle defensively as well. I think the two recent games are not indicative of some major change in strategy.

Baylor is anti-tempo (295th) & avg length of possession (293rd). Even with the 4 guard lineup Baylor is very methodical- like they copied Virginia.

The defensive stats are so similar for both teams that I don't see how this becomes a shootout. I do however believe the 4 guard lineup + practice time/continuity has improved the offense to the point they could actually force a defense out of their preferred style of play (Baylor).

I think the biggest story going into this game is whether MaCio Teague plays (he sat the last two with the wrist injury). With Teague on the floor Self has to choose whether Garrett is guarding Butler primarily or guarding the hot hand. Without Teague, Garrett can limit Butler's impact (as long as he doesn't get into early foul trouble) and that could be a huge storyline. I think KU has a major advantage on Saturday if that plays out, similar to the advantage Baylor had when Dotson was forced out of the game with Injury and when he returned his impact on both ends was limited. Baylor took advantage

Who keeps vital off the boards? 😡

@Crimsonorblue22 said in More than we can BEARS...:

Who keeps vital off the boards? 😡

Better question is, who keeps him from Flopping.

@BeddieKU23 ref

Gillespie looked super tired last pm. I thought till the end, I quit watching, ou was boarding pretty good w/them. They just had awful shot selections!

@Crimsonorblue22 said in More than we can BEARS...:

@BeddieKU23 ref

For some reason they let him get away with his crap every game. Its hard to watch him.

@truehawk93 said in More than we can BEARS...:

I like our chances. We are better than we were during that loss in Lawrence. Bears are showing their typical dive into the second half of the season. They don't have a proven big man. They rely too much on the three. It's catching up and tonight exposed some of their weaknesses. They have no inside game. They have a small ball mentality that grinds other teams. OU didn't do too bad tonight. They just don't have fire power and they do not have inside game either. This Baylor team is not that good. Tonight, if not for the Butler kid, they lose.

Oh buddy , man I respect you as well as everybody here really but bud I'm sorry I just have to disagree with you on some things I really don't try and start swapping verbal confrontations on subjects cause we all have our opinion and again I respect your I really do but you and I just don't agree on some things.

They very much have an inside game , now I know I'm not spelling his name right BUT Gillispie is very legit. From where he has come Division 3 - -to a P-5 school and starting - - and the Nu 1 team in the Nation - And they are the number 1 team until someone can beat them - -and no one has done that yet. - they lost in the 2nd game of the season an haven't lost since. - - They beat Oklahoma by a decent score on the opponents home floor WITHOUT of one of Baylors better players Teague.

They pretty much handled us on our home floor , ya I know Devon was out quite a bit of that game - - I realize that and yes we are playing a lot better , and it's going to be a war - - taking a dive? -a dive ? - -how have they taken a dive ? - -still haven't gotten beat final result is whether you win by 1 - - -or 21 a win is a win good teams can play great and win OR a good team can play ugly and STILL find ways to win. At the end of the day , it's still a win. - -anyways have a great day my friend. We still loyal Jayhawk buds. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Crimsonorblue22 said in More than we can BEARS...:

Who keeps vital off the boards? 😡

No- - One Vital gonna get his

@Crimsonorblue22 said in More than we can BEARS...:

Gillespie looked super tired last pm. I thought till the end, I quit watching, ou was boarding pretty good w/them. They just had awful shot selections!

ya like one perfect example that your talking about was , think OU down by 4 with the ball late and Doolittle comes down and jacks a shot up with out it touching any other players hand ONCE - -huge mistake - -Baylor gets the rebound and promptly comes down and scores PITIFUL

really appreciate everyone's views , can't really comeback with rock solid debate, but just opinions.

Guys I get it , I hear ya when people say , OH don't worry you can count on Dew's epic downfall/failure just wait, saying Drew is a bad Coach - -how he is a failure how he fails BUT is he? - Can you say he is any of a worse failure not obtaining what we think should be reachable goals then Bill Self

Has people forgotten the dumpster fire Baylor was BEFORE Drew got to Baylor ? what was it like 2 appearances in the tourney in like 50 plus years, now look. People say OH Drew is an under achiever possibly/probably - -BUT you want to look like it that way - -What about Coach Self?

When we look at the comparisons of roster, how many highly recruited players have come to KU - - the OAD'S compare that to what Drew has had. - Has Drew been more of an epic failure then Self with what he has had to work with ? - - How long has KU been considered the elite/blue blood

Drew has been at Baylor in his 17th year - - Coach Self is in his 17th yr at KU. - KU and Coach has ONE - - ONE National championship with all the talent we have had- - all our early exits been ranked as a very high seed ONE more championship then Drew in the same amount of time.

How many 5 * players has Drew had compared to all the 4 5 players we have had - but in reality look at our under achievements with what we have had to work with - -then look at Drew and what he has done. Look how far he has brought that program. Just saying guys I mean ya I like to talk the smack to but I mean come on , the guy REALLY isn't a bad Coach. - -Everything taken into consideration the overall scheme of things he hasn't really done that much worse then Bill

Other Schools can and have said the same thing about as they call him " Rug Head Bill " - -talk about how Coach Self and KU always under achieve - Now you can either agree and accept what I say/bring out - - or not either way it's all good. All I'm saying is if you wanna try and make Drew out to be a terrible Coach underachieve then maybe we need to wipe our Crimson & Blue glasses and look at our own coach

@BeddieKU23

Yes. Whether Teague plays is huge.

We need Marcus and everyone to pressure the ball. I know we have a highly-ranked defense, but in reality, we don't pass the eye test in areas on defense.

Can we disrupt their offensive flow? Can we get out there and challenge the trey? Can we get out there and challenge passes so shooters don't receive the perfect "catch and shoot?"

It is going to take a monster effort for us to win this game and we will need every bit of our bench in this one.

We've got to want it more!

@drgnslayr said in More than we can BEARS...:

@BeddieKU23

Yes. Whether Teague plays is huge.

We need Marcus and everyone to pressure the ball. I know we have a highly-ranked defense, but in reality, we don't pass the eye test in areas on defense.

Can we disrupt their offensive flow? Can we get out there and challenge the trey? Can we get out there and challenge passes so shooters don't receive the perfect "catch and shoot?"

It is going to take a monster effort for us to win this game and we will need every bit of our bench in this one.

We've got to want it more!

Seems like other teams still get a lot of wide open 3 's against us , luckily for the most part they just haven't knocked them down. - -We have seen what happens when we come up against teams that shoot the 3 really well - - do I dare say Villanova come to mind? - -even though didn't end up mattering -we saw what a hot 3 point shooting team can do - - Iowa State wide , wide open 3's in the 1st half - -result ? - -9-12 -we were really lucky that in this game Iowa State has a really junk defense so we kept scoring also

We let Baylor have those kind of looks or play another really good 3 point shooting tam unless we get that fixed - - were screwed - -I mean for the most part guys have had WIDE open 3 point looks

@drgnslayr

It's a big boy game for sure. Reminds of the OU game in Allen years back however with the placement of this game and what's at stake this probably surpasses even that one.

If Teague plays they matchup extremely well with us again.

If I'm both teams I'm thinking how quickly can I get Doke/Gillespie to 1 foul before the first media timeout. Either guy having 2 in the first half would really change the dynamic. Dave is better then their backup

Some things I've found and heard/read while waiting for the game Saturday , Her is some thing I didn't realize : you know were always talking about our three point shooting.

A poster on another site that I follow had this talking about actually what a dangerous 3 point team we can be and then followed it up by pointing out that :

we have had 5 players that has made at least 5 treys in a game .- -We have had 4 players that has made 6 treys in a game - - -and there has been 10 different games where we had a single player make 4

Breaks own as follows : Moss - -5 vs Monmouth , 4 @ Stanford & 6 @ OU. - - - -
Agbaji- - 5 vs Milwaukee , 4 vs Colorado & 4 vs Iowa St - - - -
Braun- - 6 vs KSU , 4 vs OSU- - - -
Garrett- - 6 vs OU- - - -
Dotson- - 6 vs Iowa St- - - -

Another little tid bit I heart on sports program - -think about this , When Doke is on the floor , Ku is best in the Nation in rim Protection. - - - There has been 45 points against Doke and opponents are averaging less then a 1/2 point - -that's just crazy - -there you go lol. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

It will be a battle, probably the biggest regular season game this year in college hoops. Baylor is great because of the togetherness of their team and the athleticism of their guards. They basically surrounded Doke and either stole the entry pass or slapped it outta Dokes hands in the first meeting. We need all of our guards to be ready not just Dot and Garrett. Outside shooting will be a big key, knocking down open 3s to prevent them from double and tripling Doke will be a must. People always talk about how beating a zone defense down the floor is key, I agree but beating any defense down the floor is helpful. This honestly could be the biggest game in Baylor men’s program history. We play in big games every year. I’m not sure if that’s an advantage for us or not but it can’t hurt.

Coaching Confidential from ESPN on the matchup. Only 1 coach apparently got the memo!

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/insider/story/_/id/28736404/baylor-kansas-confidential-coaches-weigh-epic-big-12-matchup ↗

Highlights:

Butler vs Dotson

"I think Dotson is the player of the year in the conference by far," one Big 12 coach said.

"Jared Butler is the player of the year in our league," another coach said.

"If he's hitting jump shots, there's nothing you can do with him," another coach added. "People want to go under pick-and-rolls, but he's going to get where he wants to go." (Dotson)

"Butler can take a game over at any time," one coach said.

MaCio Teague's Availability:

There's no consensus from opposing coaches on how much his absence would impact Baylor.

They're able to switch everything," one coach said. "If you're putting Bandoo in, you can attack him. He becomes the mismatch. His counter would be if he's making 3s. But if he's not making 3s, I don't think Baylor has enough firepower."
"They have four guards, so with Teague out, they still have three guards that can beat you. They're going to just play deeper minutes," another coach countered. "I don't know if it impacts them. They have four.

Who's better Defensively:

One coach said that Baylor has better individual defenders but that Kansas is better as a team.

"Baylor messed us up because they switch 1 through 5. That runs you out of everything," he said. "They don't let the ball in the post; they front. Mark Vital -- him and Marcus Garrett are the two best defenders in the conference. Baylor has better individual talents, and then Kansas has a good scheme. What they're doing, how they protect [Udoka] Azubuike in ball screens. They don't give up any second chances; they're able to get every rebound."

"Garrett is the X factor," one coach said.

Doke:

His physicality and the way he plays around the rim, you can't simulate it in practice," one coach said. "Where he catches the ball, it's either two points or a foul. And part of fouling is you get them in the bonus so early. It just becomes another factor to deal with. He's just such a factor with his ability around the rim. He's not missing many inside of 8 feet."

Keys to the Game:

For Baylor, most of the coaches I spoke with pointed to the Bears' need to make shots from the perimeter. They're making only 32.5% of their 3-point attempts in conference play, and they've been a bit streaky in the Big 12 despite having four capable shooters.

On the other side, it boiled down to Kansas' two stars. Dotson and Azubuike form the best inside-outside tandem in the country, but neither player was at his best in the first meeting between the two teams. Dotson needs to get out in transition and needs to be effective with ball screens, and Azubuike needs to dominate down low. Gillespie isn't a match for him physically, but Azubuike simply couldn't get touches in good positions the first time around.

Picks:

Baylor: "I think Baylor can win it all. I think they're deeper."

Baylor: "I'd pick Baylor. Baylor just has too many weapons, they have too many guys."

Kansas: "I would tend to lean toward Kansas. Baylor hasn't been at that level since that first game. This is the type of game Kansas has been built on. They're never rattled in games. It's never too big. They don't flinch."

Baylor: "It's hard to pick against Baylor. Their switching causes a lot of problems."

Baylor: "I think Baylor wins it. Azubuike is the toughest matchup in our league, and Baylor has the only front line that can handle him."

Guess we don't have weapons or too many guys! Huh guess I'm watching the wrong games

@BeddieKU23 said in More than we can BEARS...:

Guess we don't have weapons or too many guys! Huh guess I'm watching the wrong games

Oh we have the weapons. - -One thing that was brought out in this and what I was thinking and worried about - - AGAIN. whoever was spot on with this. In the 1st game Baylor took Doke out of the game. They engulfed him the 1st time he couldn't make any kind of move, he was lucky to even catch the ball. suffocating around him. We need to find ways to get Doke the ball or gonna be a long day

@jayballer73

The first Baylor game was pretty much a carbon copy of how KU loses Tournament games. Turnovers- they dominated on points off turnovers, Butler had a dominant individual showing- scored 10 straight points at one point (something that usually happens when KU loses in March), KU was down its best player for a big chunk of the game (in-game uncontrollable event), - KU shot woefully from 2 & 3 (always a recipe for Tourney exits).

What I like about the timing of this 2nd game is KU has improved a great deal from that game. They haven't lost since, guys are healthy and chemistry is strong since the switch to the 4 guard scheme.

I saw a recent tweet from Jesse that stated Baylor did a great job attacking Braun & Moss in that game. Those two guys have improved on the defensive end since that game.

KU also made a schematic mistake allowing Doke to be shadowed by Vital or the guard closest to him which forced double teams upon entry pass and catch. Our guards were terrible in that game passing into Doke. There was one play where Agbaji missed so poorly on a post feed it hit the backboard. Some of KU's players were rattled in that game. On a positive note when KU used Doke on high ball screen action they were able to run smoother offense and get things moving. I think the offense has looked a lot smoother the past month with the switch to 4 guards and I'm interested to see how much they camp Doke on the post and try and feed him. I think they will pick their spots and try and run him around ball screens because there maybe a higher probability of getting him a good post touch that Baylor cannot double team with him moving around. Baylor scouted KU to a T in that first matchup.

Basically I think the level KU is playing on right now is higher then it was 10 games ago. We're seeing the best basketball right now from our best players (Devon, Doke, Marcus) which wasn't the case in the first matchup as well. I'm optimistic we can leave Waco with the W

@jayballer73 WHY? He's like 6' 5", right? Or am i thinking of someone else. Sorry, i didn't google it.

If he IS 6'5" - block out and out hustle him. It's not rocket surgery. Or brain science.

@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:

@jayballer73 WHY? He's like 6' 5", right? Or am i thinking of someone else. Sorry, i didn't google it.

If he IS 6'5" - block out and out hustle him. It's not rocket surgery. Or brain science.

Easier then it sounds. - -vital is just a smaller compact version of Rico Gathers - the guy just has a nose for the ball, a beast keeping him off their offensive boards - -this is on area where we have to be careful and Doke not pick up any cheap fouls, as can NOT afford for Doke to get in foul trouble and have to sit any extended time in this game

@jayballer73 Charles Barkley

@Crimsonorblue22 said in More than we can BEARS...:

@jayballer73 Charles Barkley

good Comparison

Barkley was much better offensively

@jayballer73 I'm with you, man. Baylor is a very good team and Drew can coach. He's thus far probably the top candidate for National Coach of the Year. I don't subscribe to the Baylor is going to choke as usual theory, but do subscribe to the "we are going to beat them this game, though" one - but we're certainly going to have to earn it. They are at home, and aren't going to lay down.

This game will be the measuring stick (for KU) for the rest of the season until the final four.

@Marco

I will very much agree with you that , right now, Baylor is a very good team.

Drew can not coach. Not. He is not a good coach. He has proven that year after year. He's had some of the best talent in the country over the years and done nothing with it. This season, he happens to have very good talent that have figured out how to play together well.

They are winning in spite of Drew, not because of him. I don't expect you to agree.

@nuleafjhawk Does he really ever get as much talent in Waco as we sometimes think? I don’t remember any top 10 recruiting classes.

@dylans Maybe not great "classes", but he's had some outstanding individual players over the years.

@dylans Does anyone think Bruce Weber is a great, great coach? But - K State won the Big 12 last year.....

@nuleafjhawk No I don’t think Weber is great, but KU also fielded a team last year that nearly made me quit watching basketball with its apathetic play.

This year KU has a very good team and Baylor is giving them a run for their money. (Head to head win in Allen and they beat Nova while KU melted down in the final seconds and lost in a puddle of pee) I think KU wins Saturday and ultimately proves to be the better team, but Baylor is final four caliber. I don’t think Drew is on Self’s level, but why does the thought of him being decent offend you so? It’s great to get challenged from within the conference. Especially if it’s top heavy - think of a normal ACC year.

The current Baylor roster has 2 guys ESPN rated as high as an 83 score. KU has 7 guys rated 83 or higher. The 83s are Enaruna and Lightfoot. Meaning those would be Baylor’s best recruits. Wilson was an 85, better talent than any Baylor player. Most of those guys wouldn’t even see the floor for KU.

Please don’t make me defend Drewsh, but saying he’s a bad coach given what he’s doing this season isn’t a hill I’d die on.

@dylans What makes you think Drew offends me? I just don't think he's a good coach. That's not a sin. He's proved it to me for a long time now.

He DID win a conference championship !! With Valparaiso. Seventeen years ago.

His Baylor resume? Barely over .600 winning percent. Meh.

Conference Championships - ZERO. Meh.

Final Four Appearances - ZERO. Meh.

I don't hate the guy. He's not Gregg Marshall. I just don't think he's a good coach. The statistics back me up. Yes, he's having a good year. Finally.

I don't even have to compare him to Self, that wouldn't be fair. Nobody else is Bill Self. Compare Drew to almost any other coach in the league. He doesn't stack up. That doesn't mean he offends me.

@nuleafjhawk probably because you come out swinging every time his name is brought up. Comparing him to Weber is some vitriol. I haven’t historically thought much of the guy myself, but the last two years he’s fielded good teams. Good teams built from nothing recruits that somehow KU fans end up drooling over at some point. It’s weird is all.

What gets me going about Drew is how ESPN views him. They (I forgot who exactly) said that he's the best at rebuilding a program with how well Baylor is doing this year. I'm sorry but if it took a "great" coach 17 years to reach this point, is he that great?

That being said I do think that Baylor is the real deal this year and IMO are a close second to KU to win it all.

@dylans Well, I've always respected you here. Again, I guess we all have our own opinions. I don't hate the guy, I just don't get why, after 17 years everyone thinks he's a top flight coach. My opinion.

@nuleafjhawk

That seems a bit harsh but its your opinion to have. I think his biggest weakness over the years has been big games (especially against KU in conference & in the Tournament).

Something changed this year though. Switched to M2M defense from his exotic zone to match the personnel. He made a change that benefited the team.

He hit home-runs on the transfer market in Teague/Mitchell and got extremely lucky Jared Butler backed out of his commitment to Alabama in the spring. Those guys have developed a great deal under Drew's watch.

The big thing with this roster is almost everyone in the lineup has had the benefit of a red-shirt year which is something Drew loves to do. It's an old team. Maybe Freddie Gillespie was always destined to be this good but his story is pretty unique- started at D3, walked on at Baylor, earned a scholarship and now starts and is an integral part of their success. I'll give credit where it's due, Drew has hit it rich this year

@BeddieKU23 OK. Here's the deal. I'm seriously confused.

How is it harsh to think that a guy with those stats is not a good coach? Would you be super stoked to have him at KU for 17 years with those stats?

I already know the answer is NO. You would be fit to be tied (whatever that means).

It's not harsh to look at a sheet of statistics and say "Hmmm - this dude is not a good coach".

I didn't say he was a wife beater, a child molester, a bad neighbor or that he steals from the offering plate at church. Just that, based on 540+ games of history - he's not a great coach.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/kansas-coach-bill-self-hasnt-let-controversies-derail-jayhawks-season-heading-into-showdown-vs-no-1-baylor/ ↗

Nice little article from Dennis Dodd of all people who got some good quotes from Self.

One thing that stood out to me is that he is 100% placing the blame from Late Night at the feet of Long.

@nuleafjhawk No disrespect meant, yours is a common opinion and one you seem entrenched in. I just don’t know if it’s 100% deserved. Any success at Baylor is harder to come by than at a blue blood. As far as Drew goes I don’t believe he has star potential Beard does. If Scott Drew can sustain his current level of success without a big drop off he may prove me wrong on that front.

@nuleafjhawk

Then I guess I do think labeling him "not a good coach" a harsh statement. What's your definition of a good coach? I generally have no idea since it seems to be a moving target for everyone. Again your opinion to have, wasn't bagging on you about it, just found it interesting.

Things to consider:

He's the winningest coach in Baylor History and has more NCAA tournament appearances then any predecessor combined, Baylor Basketball has been around over 100 years.

They have only been to 1 championship game in their history, 72 years ago. He's taken them to the Sweet 16/Elite 8 4 times. Baylor Basketball doesn't have the rich history KU has and I think that has to be taken into account that Drew has elevated the program to its current status because nobody else did before. I'm in no way advocating for Drew and Baylor just adding perspective

Scott Drew is a good coach. He has a .603 career winning percentage at Baylor, including those first 3 years when he was dealing with the aftermath of the Dave Bliss scandal. In Drew's third season at Baylor, they were banned from playing a non-conference schedule because of that fallout. Year 4 is when Drew started to have any hope of success at Baylor because that's when harshest sanctions were over with and he could begin actually building a program.

Most programs would be thrilled with a coach that makes the NCAA tournament essentially 70% of the time.

Scott Drew wouldn't be near the top of my wishlist for Self replacement's, but there's also plenty of worse options out there. I would consider him to be in the 20-25 range for top coaches. He's definitely not an elite coach because the consistency isn't there, but he's by no means a bad coach.

Scott Drew is a good coach who has succeeded in what anyone would have thought was an impossible situation.

To pretend it's anything else is being disingenuous at best.

@dylans said in More than we can BEARS...:

@nuleafjhawk No disrespect meant, yours is a common opinion and one you seem entrenched in. I just don’t know if it’s 100% deserved. Any success at Baylor is harder to come by than at a blue blood. As far as Drew goes I don’t believe he has star potential Beard does. If Scott Drew can sustain his current level of success without a big drop off he may prove me wrong on that front.

His team might be really good next year as well.

If Butler/Teague/Mitchell return - that's crazy. Vital, Mayer & Thamba as well from current roster

They have two transfers sitting this year, one a high scoring guard in the mold of Teague & a big they are high on.

They signed 3 Top 100 kids as well and redshirted a 3 star Small Forward. Drew looks to be positioning for a multi year run

Sorry @nuleafjhawk I didn’t mean to turn this into a Scott Drew lovefest. Lol I was just surprised at your position this season. Most years I wouldn’t argue with you one bit.

@dylans

Agree he's having an "outlier" year. I don't think its a lovefest by any means but we can give respect where its due. He did come into Allen Fieldhouse and beat us down pretty good. Tomorrow we can return the favor

@BeddieKU23 ...well from me...that’s by far the most nice things I’ve said about Drew.

@dylans I guess it's like when my wife says "Do these jeans make my butt look big?" and I say "No, it's the other way around".

I don't mean anything by it - just an observation.

I will give him credit for this year - he's obviously having a great season. I just don't see him as a great coach for the long haul.

Oh yeah - the jeans comment never happened or i wouldn't be able to type.

I have noticed from watching them a lot this year, there's an ast coach that seems to do an awful lot of talking to the players and Drew during the TO's.

@nuleafjhawk I didn't say that he was a great, great coach.

@Marco It doesn't matter. If you like him, great. I don't - that should be great too. I mean, we could all have this debate about Bruce Weber - in my opinion a so-so coach (at best) but since he has a Big 12 Conference Championship under his belt, some folks might think he's a great coach.

@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:

@BeddieKU23 OK. Here's the deal. I'm seriously confused.

How is it harsh to think that a guy with those stats is not a good coach? Would you be super stoked to have him at KU for 17 years with those stats?

I already know the answer is NO. You would be fit to be tied (whatever that means).

It's not harsh to look at a sheet of statistics and say "Hmmm - this dude is not a good coach".
woke
I didn't say he was a wife beater, a child molester, a bad neighbor or that he steals from the offering plate at church. Just that, based on 540+ games of history - he's not a great coach.

What did Baylor do in basketball before Drew? 17 years he has coached there, how many NCAA tournaments? How many before he came?

@nuleafjhawk I didn't say that I like him.

@nuleafjhawk I'd take Drew over Weber any day of the week.

@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:

@dylans I guess it's like when my wife says "Do these jeans make my butt look big?" and I say "No, it's the other way around".

I don't mean anything by it - just an observation.

I will give him credit for this year - he's obviously having a great season. I just don't see him as a great coach for the long haul.

Oh yeah - the jeans comment never happened or i wouldn't be able to type.

Look at it this way in 17 years of Coaching respective teams. - - - Coach Self ONE National Championship - - Coach Drew ZERO. - -that's not much to say he is not a Good Coach.

I don't need to hear well Coach Self has gotten further , more elite 8's - - more final fours. in that length of time. So just because Coach Self has made Elite8's/final 4's he is better, well he is better but does that mean Drew is NOT a good Coach ? - - umm no. - -so let me ask you who is the bigger failure? - - Self Or Drew ? - - Who has had way more OAD'S ? - - ranked top 20 players in the Nation ? - answer ? - - So who is the bigger failure with what they have had to work with? How about our early exits we have had? - -Does that mean Coach Self is a bad Coach ? - - umm NO and neither is Drew

Drew does have more losses at AfH than coach Self, right?

Was just listening to our local daily sports program and they were talking to the Voice of the Baylor Bears , and of course the FIRST question was asked will Marcio Teague gonna play because of his hand ? - -Of Course he said he had no idea, that they had just talked to Drew and he still says that it will be a game time decision?

Who here seriously believes that there is no chance that Teague plays? - let's be honest here ok? - -You know it - -I know it - - we all know it. There is n way in hell he is not playing tomorrow. The guy said if it was his non-shooting hand he would have a better chance of playing - - saying he will dress go through pre-game workout and just have to see - - umm BS

Saying this is probably the biggest game in Baylor Basketball history. Was asked IF Baylor had a weakness , what would that weakness be? - - The answer ? - -they said if they had to pick one it would probably be the lack on consistent shooting That they have had times where the ball just isn't falling , problems scoring, but their defense has been so good that they have been able to get away with it. - -We shall see tomorrow I reckon. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 When Drew has FOURTEEN CONSECUTIVE BIG 12 CHAMPIONSHIPS I will consider your point

@Marco Me too! But if, God forbid, Bill Self ..........i don't know - keeled over or picked up and headed for Madagascar today - would you want Scott Drew as your coach? That's ALL I'm saying.

The Baylor guy /the voice of the Baylor bears said that turnovers played a big part in the last game against KU. - - He said if he remembered right Baylor only had 5 turnovers and said if you only turn the ball over 5 times for the game , any team should be in really good shape -- and that KU had like 14. - - We just got to take better care of the ball, I think we keep those in check - - hit a moderate number of 3's we should be in good shape - some where from 6-7 3'swould be nice

@Crimsonorblue22 That used to be true when KU had only 9 losses under Self in 2017 and Baylor's loss to KU that year put Drew's number of losses in Allen at 10. So since Baylor lost at Allen in 2018 and 2019, Drew's number of losses would be 12. Self now has now has 13 I think. But Self's winning percentage in Allen far exceeds Drew's!

@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:

@jayballer73 When Drew has FOURTEEN CONSECUTIVE BIG 12 CHAMPIONSHIPS I will consider your point

Great - - so your a guy that Settles? lmao you have good luck with that. - -With the players Coach Self has had - -he best be winning something.

I know your not that foolish to even BEGIN to try and compare players that Coach Self has had compared to what Drew has had, I know your not that slow. - You would lose that discussion EVERY SINGLE TIME HANDS DOWN.

It's ok like Beddie said it's ok to give some credit where Credit is due - -and Drew deserves credit it's OK but to say he is a bad Coach is just not true

@jayballer73 I must be that slow. I don't understand any of your jibberish. How in the world did you come up with "so you're a guy that settles?" What is that? Where did it come from?

If I was a guy that settles, I'd be super duper happy with a Scott Drew .603 No Conference Championship, No Final Fours kind of coach.

I'm the exact opposite of a guy that settles. You can do better.

@bcjayhawk thx!

@jayballer73 everyone Is entitled to their own opinion!

That new mute feature makes this board 10x better. I can tell

@Kcmatt7 ? Nothing nasty or personal here, just a difference of opinions. I think all is well...

@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:

@jayballer73 I must be that slow. I don't understand any of your jibberish. How in the world did you come up with "so you're a guy that settles?" What is that? Where did it come from?

If I was a guy that settles, I'd be super duper happy with a Scott Drew .603 No Conference Championship, No Final Fours kind of coach.

I'm the exact opposite of a guy that settles. You can do better.

Your so quick to point out 14 CONFERENCES championships? - - Awesome, so that's what the players set their goal for, as a season Goal hug? - -14 conference championships? Screw the NCAA title right? - and how many of those do we have under Self again? - let me tell you - - ONE.

Players coaches don't start the season with your train of thought and say - -well ok we win the Conference - -we good. - Not is really so hard to understand about that

You keep wanna throwing up crap about Drew not having any final fours - -super, again let me say with the amount of talent we have had most people would think we should of really done better wouldn't you think? - -So with the talent Coach Self has brought in, you wouldn't consider him not getting the most from his players? - -Is he a bad Coach?

Don't come at me with this crap about well he got to the final four - - lol - -is that the Goal? Cause if it is then your SETTLING. - -If your not then you might be able to understand Drew is not a bad Coach. - - Sorry you can't understand jibberish as you call it - - sounds pretty easy to me, if you want to hang your hat on Conference Championship - - final fours how about you ask the players/Coaches if they set that as their goal - -you settle. But to say Drew is a poor Coach is just off period. - Is he a great Coach NO- but he sure the hell isn't a bad Coach either. Done been brought up to you from others here what that program was like BEFORE he got there and how they have turned it around SINCE he has been there - did you forget to read those posts? - it's ok you go ahead and keep your opinion - - it's your opinion - -Hell it's Friday - - I'm good. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 stop!

@jayballer73 Just for the record - Bill Self will tell you that the team goal every year is to win the Big 12 Conference. He must be a "settler". And I really don't think anywhere in all of this mess that i've called Drew a "bad" coach. Maybe I did - I don't remember. But I DID say that he's not a good coach. So good and bad is evidently a judgement call. Because I don't think he's a good coach.

@nuleafjhawk Saying someone is not a good coach is pretty strongly implying that they are a bad coach.

@Texas-Hawk-10 It's really not. It could be saying they're OK. They decent. Maybe I should have said "Great" instead of "Good". Would we be having this conversation now if I had done that? Is anyone willing to step out into the abyss and say he's a Great coach?

Does anyone remember these guys? They were some extremely talented athletes and players. Look at the dates - a lot of them played together at Baylor on the same team. You get my point. I'm sorry I got everyone all out of joint today.

CURRENT BAYLOR BEARS IN THE NBA

Quincy Acy (2008-12)

Johnathan Motley (2014-17)

Royce O'Neale (2013-15)

Taurean Prince (2012-16)

Ekpe Udoh (2009-10)

FORMER BAYLOR BEARS IN THE NBA

Pierre Jackson (2011-13)

Cory Jefferson (2009-14)

Yes!

@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:

@Texas-Hawk-10 It's really not. It could be saying they're OK. They decent. Maybe I should have said "Great" instead of "Good". Would we be having this conversation now if I had done that? Is anyone willing to step out into the abyss and say he's a Great coach?

Then most people would say that coach was okay or decent if they meant that instead of not good. I don't ever recall using the phrase "not good" to describe okay, decent, average or anything along those lines. Every time I've used that phrase or heard other's use "not good", it was to say whatever was being talked about was bad without saying it was bad.

@Texas-Hawk-10 I'd give it a C or average. Not good or not bad, just me.

Also, getting old!

@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:

Is anyone willing to step out into the abyss and say he's a Great coach?

Hell no!

I think he’s good, but far from great. Not someone I’d want at KU, but I think he’s good for the conference. A decent human being and he currently has the #1 team that broke KU’s win streak for longest in conference history. I’d say he’s good - above average. Arguments could be made that Huggins is great and if so that makes 2 great coaches in the conference, 1 rising star in Beard (we’ll see if that continues), 1 above average coach in Drew, 3 average coaches in Dixon, Kruger, and Weber, and a below par bunch at the other schools -Prohm, Shaka, Boyton.

I really don’t know who I’d like as Self’s replacement were he to retire unexpectedly from his post, but it isn’t someone from the Big12.

I've been on this site for a long time now and it's a much bigger part of my day than it probably should be.

I don't ever intentionally try to be mean, rude or offensive and if I am, please call me out on it and I will apologize immediately. But please don't criticize an opinion, mine or anyone else's.

I let the Drew thing cause too much friction today and I'm sorry about that. It's an argument that can't be won. Listen to a couple of old farts argue about Ford and Chevy. Budweiser or Coors. Republican or Democrat. It's just each person's opinion. And they're both right.

Anyway, sorry to those I offended. Here's to a KU victory in Wacko tomorrow. RCJH

@nuleafjhawk no, I would not.

@Crimsonorblue22 You tell 'em!

@nuleafjhawk You did not offend me. You have no need to apologize.

This has been a pretty entertaining exchange.. hope no one is taking it too seriously..

my 2 cents Drew is better than mediocre -- he's at least a decent coach and probably a good coach. I think you have to give him some credit for two teams that got to the Elite Eight and lost to the eventual national champ.. and another year was a #1 seed.

No, he hasn't won the B12, but KU had a historic run for 14(!) years.

If he's not a good coach, then he has to be considered a very good recruiter, because that means he's doing some pretty good stuff simply with the talent he's brought in.

Happy Gameday everyone!! Should be a epic game with a great atmosphere. I’m feeling good about this one 😀.

@bskeet Dude! That's the what was in my head all day yesterday, but I couldn't figure out how to make my point. The recruiting part of it! Scott Drew is a master recruiter- among the very best.

@Crimsonorblue22 said in More than we can BEARS...:

@jayballer73 everyone Is entitled to their own opinion!

gee , thanks for reminding me of that. - what the hell if you have seen posts do you think I ALWAYS say? - - I've said repeatedly that everyone ha an opinion and that's EXACTLY what I put out, people wanna come back at me an offer theirs - -super , but people start throwing words around talking like I'M some dum as then umm maybe your fine with that - -I'm not doing it

I have no problem with people opinions That's what I love about America - - freedom of speech expression, - people more often then not talking down to me saying my thoughts and expressions are jibberish - -screw that there is not ONE person here that is better then myself and I'm not doing it any longer people with their smug College degree from KU and like to look down other every day plain people like myself. - -people put there pants on here one leg at a time just like myself.

Ya go ahead and ask what the hell am I rambling about. - -I'll tell you what it is I'm tired of when ol Jayballer voices HIS opinion there are people here that get their little golden spooned ass all twisted because I'm not a Crimson & Blue blind as colored individual. - -I'm not afraid to say if this team has flaws - -this team is weak - - if another coach is a good Coach I'm not gonna shut my blinders and have the approach OH there is no way any other Coach - - any other team can possibly be any good.

This rant is NOT just this topic , people treat with respect - - I'll treat you with respect. You treat me like shit - - I'm gonna treat you like shit. Just like - -now you just felt you JUST HAD to put your little exclamation point at the end of your statement. - -That comes across like you a mom or farther scolding me for my remarks - there is no place with that with me - take that somewhere else that was un needed You or anyone else don't like what me input is - -then FRICKEN block me - - move on , no one is asking ANYONE to read a single dam thing I say I am good. It's a fricken really sad day when I can't come in read and comment with out being attacked every dam time that my response gets someone's panties all twisted. I thought that crap stopped in grade school - - -Guess - -OH WAIT -- GUESS NOT ! ! ! ! ! - - now go ahead fire back I can't wait

@bskeet said in More than we can BEARS...:

This has been a pretty entertaining exchange.. hope no one is taking it too seriously..

my 2 cents Drew is better than mediocre -- he's at least a decent coach and probably a good coach. I think you have to give him some credit for two teams that got to the Elite Eight and lost to the eventual national champ.. and another year was a #1 seed.

No, he hasn't won the B12, but KU had a historic run for 14(!) years.

If he's not a good coach, then he has to be considered a very good recruiter, because that means he's doing some pretty good stuff simply with the talent he's brought in.

just did I'm done

I posit Drew is maybe a good evaluator of talent, but not necessarily a good recruiter. Quincy Acy a guy we tend to gush over was the 149th rated power forward in his class, he scored a 62 rating from ESPN.

There was a good run around 2010 for Scott Drew recruiting wise he managed to snag 1-2 90+ rated guys per year for a few years. Basically 1-2 guys a year for a four year span that are guys Bill would’ve recruited.

This is the only reason I think Scott Drew is an above average coach, we (KU fans) constantly overestimate the raw talent Baylor has. Glad he’s in the Big12.

@jayballer73 Trying to have a friendly debate about Scott Drew’s coaching/recruiting chops here. Let’s not talk about each other. Please, don’t go after the poster it’s more fun for everyone that way. @Crimsonorblue22 is a moderator for a reason and she’s calmly trying to tell you to be nice. That’s all, sometimes we need a reminder of how we sound to others.

Oh boy, what happened in here.

The reason we lost good posters

Funny to read an argument about the definition of "good".

Synonyms for good:
acceptable
bad
excellent
exceptional
favorable
great
marvelous
positive
satisfactory
satisfying
superb
valuable
wonderful
ace
boss
bully
capital
choice
crack
nice
pleasing
prime
rad
sound
spanking
sterling
super
superior
welcome
worthy
admirable
agreeable
commendable
congenial
deluxe
first-class
first-rate
gnarly
gratifying
honorable
neat
precious
recherché
reputable
select
shipshape
splendid
stupendous
super-eminent
super-excellent
tip-top
up to snuff

He's not a good coach. He couldn't adjust to Kansas running a high ball screen with Doke. He doesn't have good offensive or defensive schemes. He has 4 play-makers and 3 of them are good individual defenders, plus Vital. This Baylor team would be good with anyone coaching.

Scott Drew is a poor man's John Calipari.

@KirkIsMyHinrich said in More than we can BEARS...:

He's not a good coach. He couldn't adjust to Kansas running a high ball screen with Doke. He doesn't have good offensive or defensive schemes. He has 4 play-makers and 3 of them are good individual defenders, plus Vital. This Baylor team would be good with anyone coaching.

Scott Drew is a poor man's John Calipari.

I had been defending Drew a bit lately but he got his ass kicked today.

By 3

@Bwag said in More than we can BEARS...:

By 3

It was a coaching clinic by Bill though. We bricked threes and the officiating kept Baylor in it.

@BShark said in More than we can BEARS...:

@Bwag said in More than we can BEARS...:

By 3

It was a coaching clinic by Bill though. We bricked threes and the officiating kept Baylor in it.

Pretty sure we didn’t make a 3 in the second half

@FarmerJayhawk Correct the three makes were all in the first half.

@BShark I'm just not quote confident in our treys right now. Maybe it's the consistency more so than the ability. We've got the snipers, but Moss and Ochai just don't seem to be too confident. If they are on, they are on. But if we dial a trey, I kinda cringe at each attempt. I hope we continue to manage the treys when needed, but not to the point of relying on them to win games. We've got to make teams pay when we dish from inside. Again, we have the shooters and when left open, a kick to the trey, and they have to sink those for teams backing off the arc and collapsing the lane.

Love this guy's game

JoJo was interviewed and getting ready to play.

Great night to be a Jayhawk. Going to watch JoJo and the Sixers.

@truehawk93 We just have to get something from Ochai just have to get something. - -Zero points in this game , need contribution for sure come tourney time.