sure run over traylor
BeddieKU23
31745 posts
anderson just throws his body into defenders on 3's
at home no against a 3-10 team
other than Graham's first half, and Ellis 2nd.. there is nothing positive to take from this game
this is some of the weakest basketball ever
oklahoma st and texas are really that bad, makes the loss to OSU look that much worse
that was just ugly
so far the effort will resort in a loss
we need perry and mason out there
the cowboy and longhorn ref's didn't come with their home games so far. man some questionable calls
Oklahoma St having rebounding issues. I can't understand how West Virginia gets everything
and then a simple rebound blows the game for them
texas tech doing just enough to stay in the game with oklahoma. down 3 with 2 minutes
It would be great if he does come back and gets a full chance in the off-season to work on individual skill and get those extra games this summer. But he's in a position where he can get paid first round money and that is usually enough to take. There's no guarantee that next year he has a starting spot with Ellis back & Bragg coming in. Not to mention Traylor will be a 5th year senior who is going to play. What we really need is a quality center because the likelihood Lucas takes a major leap isn't a wise thing to predict. Cliff could still be our Center because he's got a skill level that could dominate once he figures it out.
Self is doing what he thinks is best for the team. Mari isn't the option but we don't have anyone else if its not cliff. Hunter must really be that far down the pecking order for him to not get any looks when the going is tough. We all know Mari's #'s suck, I'm sure that Self has seen them and he understands that he's got his deficiencies.
Selden has been blown by plenty but again when its a starter and his backup isn't ready to play the minutes Self is going to roll with him no mater what. A lot of the rebounds we missed were long rebounds which is debatable whether our bigs could have gotten many of them. Those fall on our guards who have done a poor job rebounding. I'm thinking today the emphasis on boards gets addressed and we will be fine at home
I don't think today will be a close game. Being at home and having 5 days to think about Monday's loss will give us a edge to today's game. A team who's got 1 road game in league play and have been beaten by 17, 20 ,23 points last 3 against good teams shows me they will struggle with the Crowd and we will play with enough energy to win by 15-20 points. It would be nice to go into Monday's key game with some confidence
Mari has earned more trust than Cliff has. He's trying to make Cliff a better player with these lessons. When he did it in the Iowa St game he responded with 2 very good games. But it was a short lived response and that's going to happen with freshman no matter the talent.
My only criticism is that when Self benches him for a whole half, he never gives him the opportunity to react to the coaching he just got. Who knows if he would have responded, defended WIlliams better or rebounded better than what we had in but the point is he never gave him the opportunity to show it. We are at the point now where hoping Cliff is going to magically "get it" is over. It's either he improves in practice and in games to help us or the enigma that he is will follow him to his Sophomore year or an NBA bench.
don't worry he'll be checked in for the KU game. Had what 20 on an off shooting game in Allen.
That's what I thought after reading that. They have a better chance of making 20-24 against us then missing that many.
It's crazy that the domino effect of who stays and who goes from Kentucky will basically shape the remaining recruits decisions. Who stays and who leaves KU will have some effect as well but because of the potential for anywhere from 3-7 players going pro from one team is going to have a major effect on everything.
As it stands right now you have Towns-Top 5, Stein & Booker Lotto picks. Remember not a lot of quality shooters projected in this draft so that's why Booker is getting a lot of looks.
Lyles & Johnson are also first round talents who could leave as well.
At KU you have just Oubre a Lotto pick. Cliff has played himself out of being a high pick this year. Will he leave anyway and be happy with the back end of the first round? Selden & Ellis are not even on the radar and at this point would be beyond disappointed if they bolted.
Best scenario is the Twins return with Ullis along with the 2 recruits they already have. That would make Newman go elsewhere. Best frontcourt scenario is that Both Lyles & Johnson return with Poythress & Lee and the 1 recruit they have. Not sure what the New Zealand kid will do if they all return.
Interesting that you see Brown going to Michigan. I think if Levert returns after getting hurt he won't go there. He's also been to UNC lately but with Jackson & Tokoto there its hard to see him signing with Roy. I still think its between KU, Kentucky & UCLA between him, same as the fall when he singled KU/UK out. UCLA has a major opening for him so they could always pull a shocker. You have to think with Wiggins & Oubre that we stand a great chance of getting another athletic freak like Brown.
I still think Ingram is Duke bound with Winslow likely to leave. He was tweeting about the Duke/UNC game. I would be shockingly happy if he came to KU, but Bragg may work his magic.
Thon has so much red tape surrounding his reclassification that we might lose even if we win his recruitment. Maybe everything will work out but so many people have said things that scare you from recruiting him. And to mention his last tournament not 1 College coach showed has to say something.
He's an enigma that's for sure.
I think this off-season, praying he's still around (if he jumps it will be the biggest mistake since Selby) the coaches can refine his game. He's got weaknesses and good parts of his game. The biggest thing is consistency. If he was consistent from game to game I believe he'd be a 1st round player this year but until he finds that in his game its best to stay and develop.
He came here with a lot of hype and failed to live up to it so far. What can ya do, not everyone is going to progress at the same rate. It's not a 100% success rate that All American's are NBA ready after 1 or 2 years. He's taken a lot of heat this year because he should be a leader, a more consistent leader both vocally & scoring wise. He should be our leading scorer but he's just not there yet.
He is an important part of this team and I do hope he decides to come back for a Junior season because he will be apart of a rotation that has a chance to do even better.
Newman coming to KU is squarely on the hopes that Selden leaves. If Selden stays we are out. The kid wants to play, he's going to start wherever he goes and he's going to put up shots. He reminds me of a more talented O.J. Mayo, he's only going to College to be the man for a year.
I also think he wants to go to Kentucky but the situation with their backcourt is an even more stickier one. Briscoe is the top PG, Matthews a high level SG. Ullis will be back. Booker is gone he's played himself into the lottery conversation. Then you have the Twins which the NBA doesn't like but they could bolt on reputation alone. If they stay Kentucky is out of the question with 5 perimeter players. if they go just pencil him in to the starting lineup.
He just dropped Ohio St because of the Jaquan Lyle announcement. I don't think the Mississippi schools are serious contenders so that leaves LSU & NC St. LSU has the momentum with Blakeney & Simmons. I find NC St a intriguing team in this race because its a decent team that could feature him with Lacey next year. While all that I've said purely from my own view, I think the most important aspect to getting Newman will be starting right away and getting an offense he can get his 17-18 points a game.
Looks like a lot of us are in full meltdown mode. I get it, You mix in a lot of things from Monday's game and it frustratingly maddening. I choose not to immediately respond on here because I knew I wouldn't say 1 good thing had I. I've had over a day to think about the game, it's still painfully pissing me off more so than any loss we've had this year.
We had the game up 5 with 3 minutes, down one 30 seconds later, maybe even less. Story of the season how we can let one basket escalate to many but in this case just 2 from the same guy unguarded. Oubre took the freshman route on a double screen and payed for it. Next play nobody decided Carter was worth guarding and he made us pay again. Scrap to a 1 point lead only to have Lucas miss a 1 and 1. I prayed he would make it, FT % said he wouldn't and I was painfully right.
The last sequence of the game isn't what lost us the game but its the one we remember. Yes it was a travel, yes Perry missed an easy layup which in motion like he was, is a hard shot to make. Had that been Oubre I'm sure he slams it home instead of Wiggins finger rolling it. Had Ellis made it he's a hero that masked another poor effort on the road. We played well 2nd half and I'd say 6-7 minutes of the first half got better.
We got outcoached in the first 5 minutes, and if you want to blame Self for the way we played the last 8 seconds I'm not going to argue. I think the players in the situation messed defensively like Ellis, and Selden who fell down on a banana and took himself out of the play.
The defensive rebounding was the most troublesome. Sometimes WVU got 4 cracks at it. I don't know %'s but I'm sure its pretty high that 2nd, 3rd, 4th chance points are scored at a high rate because of defensive breakdowns. It seemed like Carter got every lose ball. The game was won on toughness and rebounding.
Yes the ref's flat out sucked. They missed a shot clock violation, a travel that wins the game, numerous offensive fouls called on KU players passing the ball. I couldn't count how many times players were hacked dribbling out of the press that I thought the rule book was just thrown out completely. But we can't complain about the ref's can we? I believe we have the right too, they dictate pace of game and how little or how much teams can get away with.
The facts of this game are that we are not a good road team. Does that translate to not being a good neutral court team? I think it does translate more than being a good home team. We don't bring the edge, the energy, the aggressiveness, the focus whatever you want to say on the road. In the homely confides of Allen Fieldhouse everything looks better. The past 10 teams though have made winning on the road what always separates KU from the rest of the conference. This years squad is a good team, 21-5 is awesome but we are an average at best team away from home. That's the Achilles heal above all else. That's how we go home early in the Tournament even though we are guaranteed to be a high seed.
The bright side of things if you can find them, is that Perry Ellis is playing his best basketball. When you need your best offensive player to step up he's starting to show that. Can we ride that the rest of the way?
We've gotten way more productive minutes from Lucas than we would have thought a month ago. He helped win the Baylor game, he had some good moments Monday. Oubre hit shots on the road for what seemed like the first time all year. 2 big games in a row from him. Mason hit some huge buckets for us but could have really sealed with that drive or an assist but he's still wired to score first. The next evolution of Mason's game is when he drives he has to made contact with the shot blocker to draw the foul. We still hold a 1 game lead and if Oklahoma St holds serve tonight at home we can all rest a little bit easier knowing the 2 game cushion is there.
Remember Kentucky has had to reshape some of its lineup with Poythress out for the season. Injuries can make a break a team, but good thing they got 9 more OAD's.
You forget that conference teams scout their opponents and get something like 15-20 games of game film to go through to scheme against. It's just pratically impossible to win out in major conferences. KU doesn't stand a chance of that when you play a 18 game round robin schedule.
Winning on the road seems to be even harder with all the parity. How does Kansas drop a game against Temple by 20, lose to Oklahoma St after a 11 pt halftime lead. We are more talented then them but talent doesn't always win in College ball.
All I'm saying is the pressure is on that team to win. The media, their rat coach, everywhere they go, every team they play knows they are undefeated and are trying that much harder to win against them. Wichita St got that same feeling last year and lost on a lucky shot. They will never have a team like that again and to think that their talent couldn't win it alone.
I agree it is troubling to know that. The press break from Oklahoma St was much different then we will see tonight. I think some of the guys were surprised Ford went to the press. The Oklahoma St press forced half court offense which completely fell apart for us. We missed shot after shot and FT's.. Pretty easy to lose like we did when the ball doesn't go in the hoop.
West Virginia wants to speed you up, and for the most part I think our kids do well when the pace gets faster. Cliff gives us the opportunity to get lobs on the backend once we push the ball. The key is Frank Mason pushing the action or whoever gets the ball past half court. Attack them right from it because more often than not they are just hacking someone with 3 guys committed.
I'm more confident because of the other teams that have thrashed them. The same Baylor team that we just beat thumped them on their own court. Iowa St. just gave them a spanking.
Honestly though we have played night and day better at home then on the road. The Texas game looks more and more like an exception then the normal. A first half like we played against Baylor tonight will be disastrous. A 2nd half like Oklahoma St will be disastrous.
We are all worried about their defense but if our Defense brings it like the 2nd half of the Baylor game then we will be fine.
I do think our Offense is poised for a good game because they are terrible once you break the initial press. We should see lobs, layups, run out's if we execute correctly.
They also press off missed baskets, out of bounds plays (not under the hoop). That is something KU has not seen, we usually get a rebound and quickly find Mason or whoever is there. This could really disrupt our flow as is pointed out. Oklahoma St. disrupted flow and made us a half court team but their defense is much better than West Virginia's if you break the press. We will have to be smart with the ball and have everyone focused on where to be and where passes should go. It's inevitable that we will have some plays tonight that will baffle us Fans.
I don't think its a case that they are struggling at all, they have depth and none of their players have seen the type of minutes like Frank Mason has seen. For example Frank has played 829 minutes, almost 2 full games more than Selden who is second with 758. The leading minutes earner at UK is Aaron Harrison with 647, that is about 1 1/2 less game time action than Perry Ellis who is 3rd on our team. They are much fresher than basically any team in America.
Teams are giving them all they can handle. The SEC is a very weak conference this year but if we were 25-0 in our conference I'm definitely sure that a TCU or Texas Tech would have played way above their usual level of play to knock off the undefeated team. It's just so hard no matter how good you are these days to stay on top. Shows you how dominate Indiana was.
Svi is not eligible if he's not a USA citizen. Same with Wiggins.. If Wiggs were to enroll this summer for a class that would only hype up his eligibility even more
For any former players to compete they would have to taken 1 3 credit class with the school. I think the only one's eligible could be: T-Rob, B-Mac. I'm not sure about the Twins. Interesting is that if Oubre & Alexander leave for the pro's they are still eligible to play. That would then be up to the team that drafts them if they would allow them to play..
I agree that next year we will have an advantage like UK got this year.
We will have a good team next year but we truly don't know what happens with the roster shakeout yet. Does Cliff stay? Do we sign someone to fill Oubre's spot? Do we get another big if Cliff leaves? Will Selden stay for his Jr. year. Will Hunter transfer?
I do like what we will have back in Mason,Graham,Svi,Greene,Ellis,Traylor,Lucas, & Bragg in the fold. We need Selden back, we need Cliff back as well. We return that team and yes we are loaded.
It sounds great for a KU fan, why wouldn't it be our beloved school is representing USA. I'm not sure how much it truly will impact our recruiting unless a recruit comes out and says that the extra games were a deciding factor. I doubt it would be the singular thing that sets KU apart because with us recruiting the OAD's playing time is always a big factor along with who goes to the NBA and who stays.
There's 2 ways of looking at this game. One is that West Virginia isn't very good right now and the good teams in the conference have killed them.
The other is "the But. Its Kansas, it's Big Monday, its 2 days after a tough home game. And that means we will see their best effort.
Like a lot of people have said West Virginia last week, a few weeks ago was a likely loss. Now I'm looking at this game as a must win. We should win, we need to win. Why? Because we have 1 good road win all season and we need another signature statement game. This game gives us that ability. If we can't do what Baylor, Oklahoma, Texas, Iowa St have done to them what does that say about us? It would also be great to get rid of the stigma that this team can't handle press. Hopefully they are focused and prepared for what's coming. How hard can it be, Iowa St just drubbed them by 20.
Everyone and their mother knows Cliff isn't ready for the NBA. He's got the potential to be a great player but the consistency is just not there Yet. If he had the consistency he would have been where he was from the beginning.
I do think that he has people in his ear swaying him to the pros and so with that thinking I will believe he's gone til he announces otherwise. I think it's wise for everyone to assume he's gone so you don't have to worry about it being disappointing
The only reason our inside game was better is because Baylor zone is tailored to close out on shooters. We didn't have too many open 3's that weren't caused by penetration or cross court passes. We needed the inside buckets and it's nice to know that once in a while we can hang on it.
Besides that what a rough first half and not the way we should have come out. Credit Baylor for wanting the revenge but in the end Allen Fieldhouse. Happy we got the Win, now to west Virginia and hopefully the effort is there
thank you, you always role with the oldies during games
thats typical of a freshman
nothing to chat about, unless its a complete turnaround this one is already over
looks like I should have predicted how much we would lose by right now..
What's everyone's thoughts?
I know we are home after 2 games away and its a good time to get a sweep against a good team.
3 keys to the game for me.
Rebounding: Baylor has made a living rebounding the ball as one of the nations best. Gathers is the arguably best in the country at this. He has something like 66 putback backets this year. We have to drive him out from getting easy shots.
Attacking the zone: In the first meeting our first half was extremely poor at figuring out the zone. The 2nd half we attacked the middle with Mari, and high ball screens which opened up a lot of things. Now that Cliff is starting expect us to put Ellis in that same position and hopefully our passing and aggressiveness will find ways to break the zone down.
Turnovers: Lately our value for the ball hasn't been what it could be. Oklahoma St, especially, 1st half Texas Tech.
I think its a very close game because of how hard it is to beat teams twice no matter where it is. Allen gives us 5-10 points with the atmosphere and I'm banking our players will play with good energy at home. We need to compete with the rebounds, limit the bad turnovers and attack attack the zone. I'm predicting 72-67 win!
He is maddening. He had maybe the play of the year for KU in the Texas game. He had the 1 game suspension then gave a great game against Utah. He was intrumental in the Baylor comeback.
But his stats tell a completely different story. He's attempted ZERO FT's in 7 of his last 9 games. That tells you how non aggressive he has been even when he gets the ball. I don't get how Self doesn't get mad at him for taking jump shots when I don't think I've ever seen one go in. His success rate on that midrange shot must be less than 5%. Even Frank Mason has more rebounds than he does.
He gives total effort on some plays then as you can point completely takes others off and I'm not sure Self watches when he does. I think he is somewhat injured and just playing through it. I think his hip injury is worse than is being let on because his hops, and overall effort have lacked the last month at least. Last year he made everything near the basket on hi/low and offensive rebounding. We have seen little of that as he has tried to expand his game with drives to the hoop and other things that just aren't what he should be focusing on. Again maddening because at the end of last year I thought he would be even better with it being his 4th year. So far he's proven to be as inconsistent as anyone
I don't think its as easy as saying who has the better % from 3 or made 3's will win the game. Remember the game is in Allen and that's 5-6 maybe even more points in our favor alone. We've had good performances against them @ home. I do think it will be a tough game, Heslip shot the heck out of the ball last year against us so good thing he's not on the team anymore. Gathers has become even more of a threat inside since we last played them. If we can attack the zone effectively from the middle I think we win by 10
I thought it was time to show some love to a guy who's game has trended up the last 4 games. Yes, the same player who had some costly turnovers last Saturday but its impossible to forget the improved shooting this guy is showing lately. 16 of 25 from 3 the last 4 games, his overall shooting % was hovering at 34% for a while and is now up to 37%.
I've been hard on the kid all year, I know I'm not alone in the criticism. Even a few weeks ago I've seen the posts asking why is he starting? We've expected more from Wayne, a lot of it has to do with the lofty expectations he came in with but also because he shows moments and stretches of brilliance. I just feel its time to give him some love because his outside shooting is looking more and more Greenesqe.
I'm perfectly okay with who he is and as long as he's doing enough positives to stay in the lineup. He's got plenty to improve on, that's why a Junior season in a KU uniform would be the best thing for him. Another offseason to work on his handles, driving game, and leadership are things Self and company can help him become the player we all expect. Here's to hoping his shot keeps falling the way its been lately and we can count on Wayne for baskets.
Our coach believes in the hi/low and its worked for so many years no matter the talent he had on the team that having a deadly 3 point team is hard for him to accept. His bigs aren't skilled enough for the bang em inside approach all game so he's still thinking that at some point an overemphasis on 3's will come back to haunt us.
The key to a lot of our made 3's last night was dribble penetration, great passing and kickouts. Mason had 8 assists last night and I counted at least 3-4 were on made 3 balls. That shot Selden makes at the end of the half was a designed play that gave us a 5 point lead and momentum. I have a hard time believing a made 2 point basket would have had the same profound effect on the team going into the locker room. 3 point shots are an equalizer and Self just needs to embrace this team relying on the equalizer.
Besides him hitting the front row in the first minute twice I thought he played pretty well. Better than Traylor would have done in his place. 4 blocks were nice, putbacks, and dunks are exactly what we need from him.
Maybe Self say Newell's post, or the turnovers have finally pissed Self off enough with Mari. Either way the best chance for this team is more minutes, productive at that from Cliff. Hopefully his defense can keep him in the game..
I think it has to do with the fact that 1) we haven't dealt with pressure well. 2) we have tended to blow leads easily and if WVU forces to's at high rate I have a hard time believing we will respond positively. 3) and the biggest factor of them all is this game is 2 days after Baylor on the road with all that travel. The time we will have to truly prepare for the pace of the game is extremely limited. Now West Virginia has come back down to earth and the better teams have exploited the press. I watched Baylor trounce them on their gym. But this isn't Baylor, its a Big Monday game and they will have their crowd rocking with us in town. I'm optimisitc we can win but I think a lot of fans just believe because its on the road and the factors I listed above to be what we think could be a loss.
I remember Tech turning it over a lot in the first half and for a young team coming into Allen is a disaster. I don't see them turning it over at home the same way. Tubby will try to slow the game down like he always does and get these guys to play defense. This is clearly a less talented team than even some of their past teams that have given us fits here. If we don't lay another leg we should win by the points
It is crazy but we've experienced this plenty of times in the past. Self's system knows how to win and doesn't really cater to just one guy on any given year. Mason has played well enough to be 1st team, the issue is that there's so many good guards that have more reputation than he does that he's likely to be odd man out. If he was to have a few breakout 20pt games or a game winner that could really sway him some favor. I think if he just continues to do his thing and lead this team that he's likely to get overshadowed.
At this point I think its a shoe in that Hield, Niang, and Forte make 1st team. I think Gathers has earned the other spot but will have to fight off Nash, Spangler & Ellis for it. The other spot right now has to be Staten's. But if WV continues to slide down the standings I find it hard to believe Mason couldn't jump him.
Foster has blown his chance for reasons that don't involve talent. Even when he's playing well he doesn't make KSU a much better team. He shoots 3's and nothing else.
I forgot Williams, I think he's a 2nd teamer at this point. If Huggins hadn't switched to a full on press I think his team wouldn't have nearly as many wins or be a top 25 team. Williams is a good player but If I'm putting him up against Gathers who's a rebounding machine & Niang who's versatility is hard to guard its a no brainer. Williams is a good candidate for all big 12 next year.
I believe the Big 12 criteria for All big 12 is 3 guards and 2 posts. With that in mind we have more dominate guards this year then post players which is unlike the league. If I was picking the 5 best players based on team importance and performance it would be different from how I think the voting will go down.
I think there are 4 guards fighting for 3 spots. I left Cousins out because he gets outshined by his own teammate but he's just as important to OU as is Hield. With really no dominate SF I think 3 backcourt players will be picked. Staten is probably ahead of Mason on reputation alone but you definitely can argue Mason has been more valuable. He will probably need WVU to tank down the stretch to go ahead of him.
In order
Hield
Forte
Mason
Staten
Posts I believe 2 have seperated themselves with consistent play. Nash gets less votes because of Forte and Ellis hasn't been dominate enough even though he's the quiet leading scorer of the team. Realistically 3 guys fighting for 2 spots.
Niang
Gathers
Nash
Ellis
Spangler
You make some good points. This is a very young team and we've all seen the times when they play like it. It's also just as easy to praise the team when we play well, as it is to bash and pick at them when they play bad. I think with every game whether its a W or L, we experience the high's of each games outcome.
With every bad game, we've pretty much corrected the bad with the next game. Texas Tech gives us that challenge to respond from a loss. We won't know if they will until they lace em up. If it was a home game, I'd say no brainer Allen Fieldhouse will get these kids rocking, but because we are going to lowly Lubbock it could be the atmosphere that keeps us in the low.
In regards to Cliff I would side more with starting him and playing him then sitting him. The benching he got in Iowa St. seemed to work for a short time. He hasn't done much since that initial burst in his game. I thought he played extremely well 1st half Saturday, and fell into the same coma the team did 2nd half. For me I'd rather have him out there because offensively he gives us so much more. Traylor has not rebounded the ball worth a lick this year. Last year he was a pretty good offensive rebounder but I've seen little of him crashing the boards and getting putbacks. And Why is he allowed to shoot jump shots? For our starting PF/C to have 40 FT's tells you how non aggressive he is at drawing fouls. Newell's stats he posted don't tell the whole story but we seem to be losing more points than not with Cliff on the bench.
Whatever the reason Self is doing this, is his decision and I'll respect it. From a talent standpoint I think its not even close that we need Cliff out there. Traylor has gotten a big leash because he's trusted and a 4th year player. I get it, Self roles with his upperclassmen but at some point like Saturday 6 turnovers from Traylor is what's going to cost you if you don't find a balance.