🏀 KuBuckets Archive

not even remotely likely

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BeddieKU23 a little confused, Cliff and oubre are over-rated cause they haven't played, but Okafor and Johnson, who haven't played either, are not? How can you be sure the new guys won't be better than Ellis and Selden? I'm so excited to see what we have!! I'm expecting a lot better D!

Sorry for the confusion. Yes they are overrated because their ranking has nothing to do with what college ball they have played so far. Has everything to do with High School ranking and hype.

I didn't clarify what I meant about Johnson and Okafor. Both those players are going to start from day 1. Both are going to be given big roles on their team and because of that they are the only 2 that I'm thinking will have a chance to live up to the ranking cbs has given them.

I don't believe Kelly and Cliff will be in the situation to have to carry this team. They may have games where they do but overall I think Ellis and Selden will handle a bulk of the scoring. If they both avg 15 points a game or so, wouldn't they be higher than 22 and 32 on the list?

all the Freshman on the list are overrated, especially since none of them have even played a game. Okafor and Johnson are probably the only ones highly rated who will have a impact on their team where they might live up to that ranking. Selden and Ellis are better than Cliff and Kelly and I don't think that will change all year.

Tomm should be a pretty sloppy game. We will probably see some good things, but I expect to see lots of turnovers, bad defense, sloppy offense. It's an exhibition game and usually we play better in the 2nd game. At least this year our starting point guard doesn't have to sit like the past few years. I think Cliff will have a big game playing against smaller players and our expectations will grow for him. Self said he's still a work in progress but obviously really likes where he could be in a few months from now.

@Wigs2 said:

@BeddieKU23 Like you--and most everyone else on this board--I liked CF and hated to see him go. However, I don't agree with your remarks that he should stick out the year or play till semester's end. And, if you think it through, I'm not too sure you would either.

First, the time and effort he puts into practice, both emotionally and physically, is time that he could use to find another school, as well as to prepare mentally to think for the first time "I'm not a Jayhawk."

Second, would you really want a player to be playing for you who knows that he is not going to be a part of the team for the entire year? A player who in this case is playing for the Jayhawks but is thinking about playing at WSU (or any other school)?

Third, if you were a coach for a school that he might be interested in, is it possible that you would wonder why he is still playing for KU if he wants to leave?

I hate to see him go but I really don't want to see someone who doesn't give his full effort physically and emotionally.

Just my opinion.

I don't agree but that's okay we all have own opinion on this situation.

The staff places a great deal of time with these kids from hudy to the assistants and so on. For him to quit right before the season to me is a slap in the face.
I don't think that if a kid thinks about transferring in the beginning/middle or end of the year will play with any less heart in the program. They all want to play at the end of the day and we never question kids commitment when they transfer at years end (White).

So I don't agree that because a kids leaving in the beginning that we should have expected him to not have his heart in it. I think if he had stuck it out and seen where his minutes were and role was with this team in real game time that he might have rediscovered what brought him here in the first place.

A lot of people thought the way he played at the end would be a sign of good things to come. I did as well, and more than anything expected him as a Jr and Sr. to be very important to this teams success. Lucas red-shirting isn't the norm anymore, we may be over getting the Releford, Morningstar, Withey types to stick it out. It's sad because Kansas in the Self era has been made on CF types becoming Sr. monsters.

@HighEliteMajor said:

@KUSTEVE You are right on point. Survival of the fittest. It's all about competition.

It is exactly what needed to happen. Self said the following: “We’ve lost obviously a very good shooter, but we may have also gained some chemistry issues, where now I think guys will be more locked in and more able to probably figure out what their role will be because they’ll definitely be anywhere between 10 and 20 or 10 or 23, whatever minutes there would be to go around, amongst the other guys,”

Self seems pleased. We should be too.

CF was not a Self-ball guy. That's been discussed here. Now all the finesse players are gone, except Ellis. Tharpe, CF, Wiggins, and Embiid (who isn't a tough, physical guy, but not soft by any means .... just not a physicality first guy. More finesse).

We knew someone was sitting. That brings it down to six. We know another guy is out.This looks an awful lot like Mason, Graham, Selden, Oubre, and Greene, with Svi being the likely odd guy out as we hit January. CF's transfer seems to help Greene the most. It sounds like CF's best scenario was the 5th perimeter guy, much like we have assumed. Greene gets that job.

Look at what Self does in the Kentucky game. Much like Self's handling of the Duke game last season, as we discussed in advance that game, the UK game will be our insight. Perhaps we should have known White's fate when he got a grand total of 4 minutes vs. Duke. The high level opponent gives us a look into who Self really trusts.

I could really see Mason, Graham, Selden, Traylor and Ellis as our immediate starters, with Oubre and Alexander squeezing in later.

This was all about opportunity for CF. Kids want to play. They should want to play. This only happens once for them.

“I’ve been thinking about this for a while now,” Frankamp said. “I love KU and I love the Jayhawks. I feel like I’ve improved quite a bit since I’ve been here. I love my teammates but I just don’t feel like it’s the right fit for me. We have many good guards and so many big-time players. I want to be at a place where I could play a bigger role."

"Bigger role." Hope he gets it.

Meanwhile, we get exactly what we need. The best players that fit the Self-ball mold are on the court.

I certainly don't disagree that we may have gained something out of this. What we do know is that we lost a great shooter and a great kid who valued the ball. Right now our Perimeter is filled with players who last year didn't value the ball very well. If for nothing else we knew if CF was in the game that he could stretch a D and wouldn't turn the ball over.

Now I do believe that he had a bigger role to have this year no matter what people think of the backcourt. Self clearly said he was going to start the Exhibition. Was that more to really see where he stood in the competition or was it that he had done better than Greene, Svi, Graham? If right now he had the drivers seat to start/play major minutes then why would your "role" not be enough.

I think especially after this year and into his projected Sr year he would have been one of the most important players in this program. You'd have to think he'd become the great shooter he was in HS with more and more experience/game time and his steady hands with the ball would keep him ahead of any phenom freshman who'd come this way. At least he'd be a "trusted" player in Self's terms, once you get that status you play we know that.

I'd be lying if I wasn't mad about this, I think whoever really made the decision, the father, CF himself or both is straight selfish. You stick out the year, or play til the semester's end and see how it shakes out by then. Not quit on your team days before the real playing starts. It's just unheard of when you have no other factor in play other than PT.

Lastly I like that now either Greene, Svi Oubre will get to define their roles with this team. All have excellent length and scoring ability and I'm sure now 2 of the 3 is going to play even more now. Chemistry should be easier, and we should see better flow on offense in time now.
And Recruits will notice that a G has left and can be positive for Dorsey and others considereing us.

Self has pretty much come out and said he wants to play more small ball. Some players might even be a 4 in some lineups even though that's not their true position.
He went back to boot camp being 2 weeks and that has seemed to have a better effect than last years 1 week. He has said last years team was soft, he was soft on them and has gone to good measure to correct that issue in this years team.

I can't really tell you for sure that this team will be better than last year because anytime you lose 3 starters and 2 of them are 1 & 3 in the NBA draft you can't just replace them. But its KU, and we have certainly done this before many times over.

Most concerned about our PG situation than anything. The freshman Graham from all acounts seems to be pressing for starters minutes. It's clear he's going to play and probably going to get 20 minutes a game, maybe more or less. We might start 2 other freshman as well giving us a similar situation as last year just with a few more year older players.

Our schedule is really not that much easier than last years. We don't play away from Allen Fieldhouse for a month again so that's a huge plus. But 2nd game Kentucky, Florida, Georgetown, potentially Michigan St in Florida, Utah, Temple, its not your cup cake schedule many teams will be playing.

I think Self and Co really learned a lot from last years squad which was clearly one of the most talented teams but had issues playing Self ball consistently. I think Self has made major strides in changing the status qua and trying to mold this team differently then the past. I think if those changes translate to the court then I'm confident we will go far and have a great yr.
If we don't improve upon last years mistakes then we could be looking at more L's than last yr because the big 12 is stacked again, the round robin schedule only furthers the difficulty of staying on top. We've had the most remarkable run in recent sports history regardless of sport.

5 would mean an Elite 8 finish with a stellar record, most likely meaning another league crown, and league tourney championship. I would be okay with it on paper. Now emotions of how we lose in the tournament would certainly play a role in how okay I would be with 5 in the end. Its a lot easier to say its okay when you don't know what the future may hold

Kentucky
Kansas
Arizona
North Carolina
Wisconsin
Gonzaga
Villanova
Oklahoma
Duke
Wichita St.
Virginia
San Diego St
Texas
Iowa St
SMU
VCU
Ohio St.
Michigan
Utah
Georgetown
NC. St.

The early Kentucky game is the perfect early season heavyweight game. Last year we played great against Duke and pulled the game out with some Wiggins heroics.

I've said to limit the depth this Kentucky team has we have to switch our defense up. Baylor last year early in the season gave them fits with zone defense and beat them. Kentucky will not be great when we play them and depending on how how our team comes together early we could stand a real chance of winning.
Their superior advantages come from front court depth and length at every position. Besides the twins and freshman Booker, they have no shooters on this team. Why wouldn't we exploit that to cover up our lack of size against them.
Limiting dribble penetration is the other huge part of this teams philosophy and throwing a zone as a wrinkle would do wonders in our chances. This could limit them from getting 40 free throw attempts, putting our players in foul trouble etc.

If Self is set on changing things up like the smaller guard lineup, then I'd love to see him do the same on D. Switch it up Self

@wissoxfan83 said:

I watched one game of Cliff Alexanders last year. Cliff is large and active, but what I saw appeared kind of raw. His jumper looked awkward. I don't know that much, but I wouldn't be that surprised if Cliff stayed around for another year or two.

Did you see the Mcburger game, jumper was solid. I don't expect we will let him shoot a lot from distance with his dunking nature. We don't need him to launch jumper's, we need him to bang on the block in the high/low and be a 70% free throw shooter (hopefully).

I don't think Cliff's ceiling in the draft will get any higher than a successful freshman year. He might be a tweener on height but his his style of play, freakish wingspan will help him play bigger in College and the NBA. I think Self knows Cliff is as likely a 1 and done as any with the way he is recruiting Bigs. I'm hoping we get Diallo and Bragg as the perfect combination of skill and potential.

To me Jaylen Brown is the best prospect in the class not signed, but I always have this funny feeling Kentucky is pulling the strings with him, same with Newman. I'm hopefully very wrong but we will have to wait most likely until the end of the year to find out what's going to happen with both those.

@HighEliteMajor said:

As Late Night approaches, Self's focus on really nothing but the highest level of recruits in the class of 2015 has really come into focus. With the talent on the Jayhawks' roster, Self doesn't necessarily "need" to add a perimeter player to maintain KU's elite status.

In the post, though, it is a much different dynamic. Most believe that Cliff Alexander is a one and done. Most also believe Perry Ellis will be back for 2015-16, but there is a chance that Ellis moves to the NBA after this season. If both left, KU would have only Mickelson, Lucas, and Traylor as our post players heading into 2015-16. Even if Ellis stays as expected, the Hawks are still in significant need of an infusion of talent down low.

So where does KU sit as of October 1?

Post Players:

-Cheick Diallo PF Rivals #6/ESPN #7 Official Visit 9/19

-Stephen Zimmerman C Rivals #10/ESPN #10 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Carlton Bragg PF Rivals #14/ESPN #18 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Ivan Rabb PF Rivals #7/ESPN #5 No Visit Scheduled

-Ted Kapita PF Rivals #36/ESPN #37 No Visit Scheduled

-Caleb Swanigan C Rivals #16/ESPN #8 No Visit Scheduled

The interest level and involvement by KU with Kapita and Swanigan is questionable.

**Perimeter Players: **

-Jaylen Brown SF Rivals #2/ESPN #2 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Malik Newman SG Rivals #3/ESPN #3 No Visit Scheduled

-Tyler Dorsey SG Rivals#19/ESPN #33 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Brandon Ingram SF Rivals #18/ESPN #12 Official Visit 10/10 for Late Night

-Derrick Jones SF Rivals #41/ESPN #22 No Visit Scheduled

The interest level and involvement by KU with Jones is questionable.

Thought this list might be helpful. Would be interested in anyone's additions, comments, or information that might supplement.

We also have several 2016 & 2017 studs attending which is great for the long term. Ballock is a possible post late night commit in the 17 class.

Spot on with the assessments of most. I would go as far as to say Rabb is a questionable. I don't doubt that Rabb may be interested in KU, but the simple fact is that his AAU team he played with has been a pipeline for Arizona. Even with them getting Comanche, I don't see that hindering him from committing there. Maybe we will get more and more involved if we don't get Bragg/Diallo/Zimmerman.

Kapita went from unknown to high level prospect, not sure where we stand with him. Swanigan reclassified and I've heard Michigan St. leads for him so spot on.

Derrick Jones seems likely to stay on East Coast from what I've heard.

@drgnslayr said:

@BeddieKU23

I see your red flag.

But until I watch some games, I'm not going to get worked up.

We have an idea of what Mason and Frankamp bring from last year, though both surely improved a lot over the summer months.

If Graham gets the starting nod then he obviously brings enough potential with him for Self to discount the experience of Mason and Frankamp to second fiddles.

Guess what I'm trying to say is look at it through a glass that is half full!

Regardless... I'm having a hard time believing we will be worse off at point over last year. I'm not slamming Naa... but this year we will have two guys in Mason and Frankamp that bring some game, and now they bring another year of experience with them, and age.

Graham is a total mystery.... something we can only imagine for now. He's making it hard to keep patience before basketball season. Same goes for Svi. I'm dreaming of him being a penetration expert who realizes how easy it is to score points from midrange. That could setup other people, too... like Oubre and Selden.... even Alexander.

And what about Selden? Word is out that he will lead this team. The guy is healthy and likely to rip up everyone this year. Yeah... bring on Kentucky!

I feel like I'm waiting for my chess match with Bobby Fischer... what will be his first move? Self is quite the chess player... and head coach. He certainly knows how to maximize the value of his spoken word. Who knows if he is speaking out to motivate, or to confuse, or both, or neither.

I agree that seeing games will cure our questions regarding lineups.

I think the PG situation will be better. Naa did hit big shots in situations but he really fell apart a lot of times as well. I don't think either Mason or Conner will do that. They both showed poise as the season went on. Mason wasn't a true point when he came here and Conner was used to scoring in HS so both got the freshman year and offseason to really learn how to become the PG.

I would prefer and feel better about our PG situation if Graham was eased into minutes and not thrust into them no matter how good he is. We need stability, we don't need games where we struggle because our freshman pg got rattled. We have Selden & Ellis for buckets, we really need the stabilizer and leader to keep the ship going when situations get hard.

ESPN predicting today that 3 Freshman start for KU. That includes Graham at PG.

If that happens we might be in for another long season with ups + downs. We need Mason or Conner to take control of the PG situation. They know the system, they know what's expected of them. I hope that both of them show in practice that they can lead this team, we really don't need to start a Freshman PG, its just not a good sign if that happens.

I can see Oubre or Alexander both starting because of the accolades they have from High School and KU's track record with top 10 kids is that they will start and play a lot. And we have depth to support them if they do take time to develop.

I think its encouraging that Graham has shown leadership in the pre-practice festivities to toughen this team up. Will that translate to the court though is another question. You'd have to think that some of that would translate but we just don't know. Self expects so much out of his point guard that what has been mentioned "cracking under pressure" can happen. Can he lead from the start when we have others who have been through the freshman jitters/demands from Self already?

The other factor that I have realized is that the Big 12 this year has great SG. Buddy Hield, Bryce Jones, Marcus Foster all good sized guard, all good offensive players
I can't see our 3 small ball guards defensively doing a good job against these guys. If you put Selden on him, who in a traditional lineup would be our SG, then you have nobody to guard SF's on these teams with. You see what I'm saying, we would be at a big defensive disadvantage by playing this 2 small guard lineup on match-up's alone. That's not against every team but some of the pre-season big 12 teams it doesn't seem on paper this can work in KU's favor. Certainly doesn't seem like we gain any advantage other than ball handling from going small ball. We seem to lose more than we gain, and then left asking players to over compensate.

@DinarHawk said:

Hey everyone! Its been a while since I've posted but I've nonetheless been keeping up with all of the latest news developments.

In regards to a small guard lineup, I would much rather have that than the poor ball handling teams we've had the last two years.

I realize that some are concerned with how well a small guard lineup of Mason and Frankamp will do against tall guards, especially with the Kentucky game looming. However, all you have to do is look at the game plan UConn had in championship game, which proves that short guards can match up against taller guards.

I have always felt that Mickelson would be the starter at the 5, at least for the first part of the season. One sports magazine (I don't remember which one) has him as one the top 5 centers in country. He was also one of the best shot blockers in the country at Arkansas and has improved his vertical by six inches. I would say based on that he is the starter.

In order for the team to have success in tournament, defense and turnovers must be improved upon. I think all of us were pulling our hair out because of the many stupid passes and terrible defense that we so often witnessed the last two years. If those can be improved upon, along with steady guard play, the chances that they will still be playing in April going up dramatically from the last two years.

The biggest difference in Uconn's Small Ball and KU's small ball approach is that Napier and Boatright were Senior's and Junior's and our 3 consist of 2 Soph's and 1 Freshman.

Boatright has played 3 years and 30 minutes a game his whole career. Shabazz played nearly the entire game it seemed for 3 straight years. The point is the experience difference that those 2 had in compared to what Self might do with his guards. So we cannot realistically expect that Mason/Conner/Graham can be as good as those 2 were at Uconn last year with very limited amount of playing time together to begin with.

Uconn's small lineup also had a lot to do with Shabazz and Boatright being 2 of the best players on their team that was short of depth especially in the backcourt. KU is loaded in the backcourt with a potentially 3 stud freshman, and a Sophmore who is expected to be our leading or 2nd scorer.

We can't match up with Kentucky playing small ball IMO, we can use our size to match their size at certain lineup's and hopefully switch up the Defense to keep UK's loaded front court away from every rebound.

@JayHawkFanToo said:

@BeddieKU23

It is not illegal or impermissible to have different opinions and I don't agree with everything he does, even when he has forgotten more about basketball that I will ever know and he is one of the more successful basketball coaches ever, but I do not state that he might be doing it wrong either when he has all the facts and I do not; that is the text book definition of second guessing which, BTW, is in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing; after all this is, up to a point, what we do in sport forums.

sec·ond–guess
transitive verb \ˌse-kəŋ-ˈges, -kən(d)-\

: to criticize or question the actions or decisions of someone

: to try to guess or predict what (someone or something) will do

You wrote:

wondering if he realizes what his biggest strength with this team is.

Really? and I mean REALLY? You really think Coach Self does not know what the biggest strength of the team is?

Right now, we have very little information about this team. We don't know how the new players are coming along or how much the returning players have improved; what is the injury and physical conditioning situation, academic situation, personal issues and so on; Coach Self has all this information and then some, and bases his decision on facts not guesses in consultation with one of the top staffs in the business. He acts based on factual information, the rest of us just second guess...wouldn't you agree?

Agreed if your going to put it that way.

Then the question is, why then does he believe having 2 small guards on the court a lot of time would be more successful. It must be from what he has seen to this point, which I'm sure is going to change once practice starts every day.

My other guess is that last year was a big disappointment to him in terms of certain fundamentals that he usually prides his team on being pretty good at. His Defense and PG situation have been attacked from all angles and I'm sure that hasn't sit well with him.

If he's using last year to change things up and try something new I'm all for it but I want to see why its going to be better because on paper it sure looks like we could win more games running with bigger guards.

@drgnslayr said:

@DoubleDD

"Wigs2 paying players is a slippery sloop."

I agree with that.

It's even a slippery sloop with my method of letting players own their names. It would get corrupted.

Problem is... isn't it corrupt today?

Let's face it, few all-star players' parents are starving before they get to the league. They may not be setup in big houses and cars.... but I'm sure, in most cases, they get provided for. The biggest drive for the kids to get to the league is to soak up all that gravy. And their posse pushes them to go quick because they want a taste of that gravy, too.

Star college players take a risk of injury by staying another year. They also risk injury more by going to the league too quickly. Joel... he's taking a big risk going early. But I'm really pulling for him...

Anytime big money is involved, you have corruption. I don't care if it is sports, politics, financing, investment... real estate.... commodities... Big money attracts bull snit.... bull snit attracts flies.... flies attract lizards... lizards attract snakes...

The other angle that is not talked about as much with players leaving early vs staying is the money involved in getting to the 2nd Contract and maximizing that into a profitable career for a 3rd-4th deal etc.

You take a 19-20 year old kid who has done 1 year in college, is high on draft boards and is considering coming back to school for Soph yr. Now if he does come back he's 20-21 or 21-22 going pro after his Soph/Jr/Sr year and has missed 1/2/3 years of getting paid.

He's now that much further behind in getting off the Rookie pay scale into a lucrative 2nd contract or hitting free agency. Time is limited for these athletes to maximize earnings potential with so many risks in the way. So its hard to expect young kids to play a game they know they are good at for free when they know a potential big pay day for his family is within reach.

The NFL for example has seen a tremendous spike amount of Red-shirt soph's or Juniors going pro because the Shelf Life for Football players is so limited already that the younger you are and hit the league gives you the leverage for a bigger 2nd contract and so on. Once kids talk to agents and realize the risk of being older and getting the big money drops every year you are not earning for a living is hard to pass up.

@JayHawkFanToo said:

@BeddieKU23

You wrote:

Not second guessing him, more wondering if he realizes what his biggest strength with this team is. Last year's team is exactly what it was, this years team will be different in many ways and while we are a smaller team overall than in the past, I still think we could stand better to put opposing teams at disadvantage by Playing Selden at the 2 with the combo of wings next to him.

Really? You don't call this second guessing?

I didn't realize it was illegal to have a difference in opinion against Self. Your gonna tell me you agree with every single little thing he says??

My personal opinion says a more traditional lineup utilizing our size on the wings would be optimal.
Self thinks having 2 small guards on the court will be more affective.
Answer to that question won't play itself out until the season.

@Wigs2 said:

@JayHawkFanToo Agreed that the revenues are not generated by the players alone. However all those revenues you mentioned would not happen without the players--especially the elite players. And I'm not saying to pay them all several million a year. But I see no problem with the school loaning them money till they get to the NBA.

But if Josh Selby had been able to have been able to help his family while he was in college, he almost certainly would have returned to KU for at least one more year. Then he could have paid that money back when he got to the NBA. Unfortunately, he most likely felt the need to go for the instant money rather than wait to develop into an NBA-caliber player.

Ben McLemore comes to mind too. Might have returned to school if his name could have made him enough money to support his family. Regardless I think even if you give players the chance to make money which I agree with, most will realize that the tree's are greener just around the corner (NBA). So while a kid can love the College life/game /value education the chance for professional fame and much bigger money is always going to win out.

@JayHawkFanToo said:

@BeddieKU23

But...we don't know how Oubre or Green or Svi have performed so far and we cannot second guess Coach Self on which he thinks is the lineup that produces the best results, right?

Not second guessing him, more wondering if he realizes what his biggest strength with this team is. Last year's team is exactly what it was, this years team will be different in many ways and while we are a smaller team overall than in the past, I still think we could stand better to put opposing teams at disadvantage by Playing Selden at the 2 with the combo of wings next to him.

Initially I wasn't thrilled that Self really wants to role with 2 small guards.

A few hrs has passed and I'm still not thrilled and here's why.

I believe that our biggest advantage is having a combination of a traditional line-up because that is where our depth and strength is on this team.

If we are playing small ball with Selden at the 3 then that means Oubre and Greene are sitting. Is that a good situation? Oubre and Greene will be needed to put points up, not sitting on the bench.

What if that means Selden is on the bench and Oubre or Greene is on the floor. I find that unlikely to be a winning combo because we are relying on Selden to be a leader and double digit scorer, maybe even our leading scorer.

There could be advantages to small ball especially depending on match-up but I see our strengths in having Selden at the 2 guard and Oubre/Greene/Svi at the 3.

I was just trying to point out that for all this talk of being out sized by every team not every team is going to be playing them in significant minutes against us.

Oklahoma's Thomas is not eligible and unless something happens which I don't see will be a non-factor to this discussion. Spangler is holding down the block for them with whatever Freshman emerges. Maybe Bennett because of Seniority.

Iowa St. is playing Niang as their best player, and whoever else emerges. McKay is 6'9 not some 7 foot monster with huge size. We forget Hogue who's an undersized 4 but will try and fill Ejim's role and is a Senior. Likely McKay may start because of his bigger size, but Hoiberg likes to have all 5 positions shooters and McKay is not that guy. The Greek kid is what the 4th or 5th big, not likely to see much action unless better than I'm thinking.

Texas will give us trouble and if Turner is good as a freshman and they put Holmes at the 3 in situations then they are huge. I have suggested we play Zone against them because the one thing they didn't do well last year was shoot the ball. Eliminate their height advantage by forcing them to make jump shots.

K-State will start Gibson and either one of the footers or Johnson. The only other team that I see giving us size issues especially in Manhattan.

Oklahoma St I've already said is set at both forward positions who if healthy will probably play 30+ minutes. They don't have a Murphy to bring off the bench and who knows about their newcomer's. Not worried about their size, more worried about Forte making 9 3's and finding someone to cover Nash.

WVU , Williams is the only true back to the basket big they have. Noreen is terrible, Adrian is a face up shooter and Watkins didn't really show much last yr. Why are we scared again?

TCU has good size and I believe they will be a much improved team. 5-6 league wins I can see easily. Not worried about their size though.

Size looks great on paper but if they aren't likely to be a starter or a significant contributer then KU is fine and its business as always. We are so used to having the footer that we assume we won't be as affective without. For the first time in a while we have to actually defend and I look at it as a great opportunity for Self to re-establish his defensive prowess. We will have to find ways to be a good defensive team without relying on a rim protector as our blanket. I do think Cliff will block plenty of shots and if Mickelson gets playing time can be expected to get his share too.

I think I pointed this out in other conversations about the C position in regards to Alexander.

Not a lot of Big 12 teams have big size that's going to be a disadvantage to KU. Let's take a look.

Baylor has nobody over 6'9 and thats a redshirt Freshman who has never played. Rico Gathers is a big rebounding machine, but the same size as Cliff.

Iowa St. is likely to start Niang and a combo of Hogue, Mckay, Nader. All 6'6 to 6'9.

Kansas St. has 2 footers basically, neither has played much one a juco and one a transfer Soph. Gibson and Johnson give them good size. One of the few teams with Size to bother KU.

Oklahoma has Spangler, again same size as Cliff and Ellis. They have 2 freshman 6'10 but how much will they play?

Oklahoma St is a small team likely to start Nash and Cobbins down low. They do have a juco footer but again what impact will he have with Cobbins ahead of him.

TCU has Shephard, Abron, and Fields all 6'9ish guys.

Texas has the one true Center who will be a mismatch issue in Ridley.

Texas Tech will be lucky to win 1 conference game. Not even going to talk about them.

WVU has make everything against KU Devin Williams, and 3 or 4 other same sized bigs.

Conclusion? Only a few teams we will play all year is our Height going to be of serious concern.

@drgnslayr said:

Cheick Diallo -

Guard attributes: lateral speed and agility, good timing, ability to hit mid-range shots, some ball handling

Footer attributes: big hands, long wingspan, quick hops, aggressive in the post, some back-to-the-basket

He's a big prize, and he's going to become a bigger prize very very soon. I'd put him as a "need" not a "want!"

Well put, I've been preaching him as a need for a while hence the post. With him and Bragg who brings the versatility to be an inside/out big with potential like Diallo they are perfect fits for Self. I really think these 2 are home runs but we need Self's magic to make it happen.

@JayHawkFanToo said:

@BeddieKU23

I like your numbers. If the end of last season is an indication, Traylor might be in the 9-12 PPG. More importantly, if Frankamp finds his groove from the 3, I can see him being closer to double than low single digits and becoming an important contributor.

Last season, KU did not have a consistent 3-point shooter, although at times we saw glimpses from Tharpe, Frankamp, Wiggins, Mason and Selden (and also Green), but none of them could do it consistently, which in turn gave opposing defenses more leeway. Having a deadly 3 point shooter would help open up the inside game and give the bigs an edge. On paper it looks like this team has the potential of being a good 3-point shooting team, let's hope that at least a couple of players can do it consistently.

Agreed if Self roles with Shooting then my Frankamp projections are off base. I think Mason improved this summer and right now as he was the backup has to be considered the leader to start.
I prefere Conner because of his low turnover/ shooting and poise he showed at the end of the year. I think he would make better decisions with the ball and with more time would prove just how good a shooter he is. That would give the team the 3 point shooter it needs.

I project Greene to have a decent impact in points with his shooting even though I think Oubre starts and gets a lot of the minutes.We need his come in and hit shots mentality that he showed last year. More minutes and improved feel for the game/ defense should get more trust from Self.

I think Traylor see's about 20 minutes a game, we frankly need his energy and improved game. He's the glue on this team.

@konkeyDong said:

@BeddieKU23 I wouldn't sweat the French connection here. Diallo also commented that that assistant's French was pretty much merde. Diallo is a Norm Roberts project, and Norm's been killing it lately, delivering Embiid, Selden, and Oubre on their visits. Let's hope the trend continues...

Only reason I mentioned it is because its slimey UK and we know what influence he has on kids no matter the situation.

I do like our chances, especially since we've been there from the beginning with this kid and hopefully him seeing how Embiid did influences his decision.

Alexander I don't think comes back unless he has a disappointing year and his stock slips.

The first important recruit to hit KU's campus this fall is this top 10 Big man. I've been saying all spring and summer that this guy with Bragg is the frount-court tandem I would like from the 15 class.
We've been rumored to be in the lead for him for quite some time but recently I read something about Diallo and UK's assistant coach having a connection with him. Diallo speaks french and apparently UK's new assistant speaks some as well. Iowa St and St. Johns have also been squarely involved in his recruiting and will get visits if we can't get him to commit after his visit.

Since the summer I've noticed a big trend in recruiting that if you get one important recruit to commit that others seem to pull the trigger as well. Florida St, Texas A&M, Oregon St., Arizona, Syracuse have all parlayed one commit into multiple players in a short amount of time recently.

I look at Diallo if he commits in the same way. With Late Night right around the corner and with a long list of top recruits coming if Diallo is already on board I see this as a positive sign to getting 1-2 guys after Late Night. If Diallo takes his visits after the KU visit and doesn't decide until the signing period..KU might have already gotten commits from others.

What's everyone's thoughts??

Self's teams typically score from 75-81 pts per game. Typically 3 guys will average double figures with 2 to 3 averaging from 7-9 pts as well.
When you look at this team, you see 2 obvious candidates to lead the team in scoring in Ellis and Selden.
Then our 2 stud freshman who are likely to start Oubre and Alexander somewhere in the 8-12 pt range. The uncertainty in that situation is does Oubre beat out Greene, and does Self go with the smaller Alexander to start games over Lucas/Hunter.

Wildcards are who starts at PG, does that player get a majority of minutes. Will Traylor get more minutes off the bench or is his 17-20 minutes projection limit him from scoring a lot. What is the minute's shakedown at C/ back up and where does Svi and Graham fit into this teams plan. Here's my projection..

Ellis- 15.4 ppg.
Selden- 14.7 ppg
Oubre- 12.1 ppg
Alexander- 9.5 ppg
Mason- 7.1 ppg

Greene 5.5 ppg
Traylor 5 ppg
Mickelson 3.4 ppg
Frankcamp- 3.4 ppg
Lucas- 2.7 ppg

Svi- unknown til practice.
Graham- unknown til practice.

As I have it right now about a 78 pt average. I could see this team scoring less even without projecting Svi & Graham and the walkon's less than 1 avg. I'm relying on Selden's health and expanded role to give him the bump I think KU will need from him. Ellis we know can score and hopefully he finally realizes how aggressive he can be and how that can affect his game this year. KU won't be successful is Ellis isn't the player we need him to be.

Traylor will back up Ellis, its that simple. He's our 6th man especially if his game continues to progress. He brings energy that others simply can't and his ability to maybe guard more than one position is key.

Hunter and Lucas are fighting to back up Alexander. Whoever wins the battles in practice will get the upper-hand at minutes. Depending on match-ups they might actually start some games for size purposes. This would make our depth scary having Cliff come off the bench.

As long as Cliff limits fouls I see him by a landslide having more blocks and rebounds than any Jay-hawk this year, those are his 2 elite skills other than his physical style of play. Ellis might challenge him in rebounds because he figures to play more as the featured player in the rotation.

This is a CLASSIC OVERANALYSIS!!!

If KU had made it past the sweet 16, elite 8, Final 4 would any of this hogwash be talked about. I bet not. We lost because with-out Jojo we were just not the same team chemisrty wise, and talent wise.

Questioning the coaching, come on. Losing Manning and Dooley is the attrition of the game. Assistance's on great teams eventually always go somewhere else and get the chance to be the leader. You can't replace them with the same, Howard and Roberts are fine coaches who will only get better with what they do.

Defensive post play is a concern. Actually our post play defensive is not as much of a concern to me as our perimeter D. I think that concern must be put to rest before worrying too much about our post's height. But it does bring a very good question about what will happen when we face bigger posts.

The good thing is there isn't a ton of footers that we do play. Texas and Kentucky are the exceptions. The only other conference team with a footer is Kansas St and we don't know how much those will play at this point.

Honestly I know this will not happen as Self is just too stubborn to change but against much bigger teams like Kentucky play zone. Especially with the game so early in the year, make Kentucky beat you from the perimeter. Because they have 6-7 big horses that want rebounds and put-backs. I think an effective zone, one Self implements in practice from the start could be very helpful at times.
Opposing coaches have played zone against KU trying to limit High/Low and effective ball movement for angles and drives and it worked last year.

Ridley at Texas can take himself out the game at times. We have Hunter/Lucas/Cliff to throw at him and I don't think he will be the reason we'd lose a game to them. Taylor and Holmes are the matchup problems on that team.
Utah has a footer but he's not a shot blocking threat, Michigan St is small this yr (potential matchup in Florida). Florida has Walker and Horford and that's it for size. Georgetown still has Smith but he takes himself out the game with out any help.

I do think Cliff will play bigger than his standing height says. And hopefully with the combo of Hunter and Lucas we can find a good balance of effective post D as the season goes on.

Diallo comes to mind as a player I think could play C and give us a rim protector/high energy/rebounding machine. I think his upside is similar to Embiid's and we know Self can help with that department.
I'm just not sold on Zim in our system unless Self does indeed start switching things up. He had problems adjusting this summer to playing with a new AAU team. He got much better over the course of the summer but what will his transition period to College be for such a highly rated player. Will he struggle early and turn it on like Perry Ellis did as a freshman? I think its clear that whoever Self gets in this class he's going to want them to be a feature of the rotation, especially if the situation occured that both Alexander and Ellis went pro.

Back to Davis, it makes you wonder if he was thrown off by all the Big's visiting KU for Late Night. Did Self stop focusing on Davis, and more on Zim, Diallo, Bragg etc? Legit questions we might never know.I can understand him staying close to home and being able to be a feature in their offense with their C being a Senior, but the kid never once said A&M was a leader.
KU, Baylor, and Zona were always mentioned as his supposed "top 3". I'm not buying the playing time factor because if he's as good as he has shown this summer, he would have a legit chance to start as a freshman.

Tyler Davis to Texas A&M. Really surprised he went there. Really surprised he didn't take his visit to KU or Baylor as he was high on them as well.

There's one domino of the 3 man class gone. Who replaces him now?

Zimmerman is likely to headed to Arizona either with Ivan Rabb together or if Rabb somehow doesn't go there. Look at the list of Zona kids that have come from their AAU team and tell me that KU or any other program involved really has a chance. I could be wrong but that AAU team is like the Arizona farm system lately. I haven't put any thought into KU landing either for that vary reason.

He would be a great get, but he's not to this point a traditional low post 7 footer. I would have preferred Davis but if we do somehow land Zimmerman, hopefully his game becomes what Self would want from a 7 footer.

Davis has gotten into much better shape over the summer. I don't think his weight is of much concern anymore, he has a similar build of Landon Lucas that can be fine-tuned by Hudy and the staff. His basketball ceiling might be much higher as his ranking would indicate but I do think if he came to KU that any weight concern would be washed away.

Dorsey would be a great pickup for a combo guard and someone we could get 2-3 years out of before the NBA train came calling.

I think KU will hit big in 2015 in recruiting, just waiting for the first domino to fall.

I like the idea of Dorsey, Bragg, and Davis. Good thought put into choosing those 3.

The espn profile on Davis isn't up to date. The kid has gotten into much better shape and was dominant over the weekend in the tourney Zimmerman was named MVP before getting an injury. His ceiling is as high as other high ranked C's and will just need the right program to bring that out (KU).

I'm willing to raise you sort of a different set of 3 in my opinion.
Jaylen Brown'
Cheick Diallo
Carlton Bragg

I think Brown is as close to a 1 and done as it gets. Reminds me a lot of incoming Arizona freshman Stanley Johnson. Powerful combo guard who can defend multipe positions and is super athletic. Sounds like he would fit with Bill Self just fine.

Diallo is sort of like Embiid, raw in area's but a tremendous talent that just needs the right coaching before going to the league. Great shot-blocker, great motor, would be the ideal rim protector and upside talent Self could make into a lottery pick.

Bragg reminds me so much of Darrell Arthur, and from a potential/already polished player he would be ideal for early playing time.

I want to say first that this is a great question for great debate.
It's always hard to predict what next year is going to hold when KU's off-season has as much story-lines as the regular season. I mean who could have predicted we'd get a young Ukrainian sensation, Devonte Graham, and almost signed an unknown Canadian Big.

Not to mention the departure of Wig's (we knew that) somewhat less JoJo, and the transfer's of White and Tharpe. If you could have told me all that would happen after the season ended I would have told you to put down the bottle.

What could happen could be just as bad or good, or eventful we just don't know. We could lose Selden, Ellis, Oubre, & Alexander. If Wayne, Cliff, and Kelly have the seasons I'm predicting then we will have 4 open spots. I don't think Ellis is on the NBA 1st round radar and because of this I think he will come back to school and possibly have a chance to finish in the top 5 in Points. Then we have to worry about transfers, or transfers in.

It's hard to say that last year was a big disapointment with winning 10 straight conference title, but the 2nd round NCAA loss always stings no matter how you put it. The Big 12 was crazy good last year, and our non-conference slate was probably the tuffest ever! I mean who doesn't play a home game for a month unless you are a mid-major trying to play good teams.

This year our schedule is still tuff with games against Michigan St. (Izzo has had our number lately) and Kentucky with the deepest lineup in recent memory. Not to mention Florida and others I'm forgetting and our chances of running the non-conf. slate is slim to none. The big 12 once again will be good. Texas is really going to give us a run for our money unless Barnes finds a way to mess it up. Oklahoma is solid, K-State will be fine, Iowa St will play us tuff so that's 8 conference games that will not be easy.

To really answer the question we need to assume that a couple of things will happen in KU's favor this year. One, an established PG will emerge or all 3 or 4 if you include Selden will bring stability we have missed for over 2 years. The other will be that our Defense will go back to being dominate again.

With most of our team a year older we will need Selden and Ellis to take over this team. I really think they can both avg 15 pts a game or more. Selden I think will be dynamic now that he is healthy. He doesn't have to be the supporting cast next to Wiggins anymore. This is his backcourt. Ellis we know what we are getting. It's the improvement on D, and the continued aggressive nature that we need consistently from him.

I'm also assuming that our Freshman Oubre and Alexander will start from day 1 and be our 3rd or 4th scoring options. We don't need them to be the guy, like we needed Wiggs and Embiid. I think that's an advantage over last year. I think Oubre has a great chance to help us forget how good Wiggins was for us. Alexander while not a traditional 5, will fill the role just fine. His rebounding, physical nature, and shot-blocking are all things we will need from him.

Our 2nd unit should also be better this year. Traylor is a beast and his continued improvement is a beautiful thing. Greene should do good things with more minutes. Will Frankamp play more this year or have similar output to his freshman year. Mickelson and Lucas will also help us out as the 4th and 5th Bigs. What can Svi bring?? Such an unknown right now until hes on campus.

I think this year is the year we really can contend if our PG play is good, and our defense is like it usually is. Self always finds a way to maximize players into roles.

With the unknown that off-seasons have brought us, its hard for me to believe if we lose Selden and 2 freshman to the NBA that we will sign better replacements. I know we are in with some serious talent in the 15 class but most are PF's and C's. We haven't really zoned in on replacements for Oubre or Selden if that does happen. A lot can change from today til then but I think this years squad is better suited to a farther NCAA run at the moment then next years.

I agree drgnslayr that Jamari is definitely a candidate for bust out/break out player on this squad.

The main question is will he get enough PT to show off even more? Will he really get more than 15-20 minutes a game with Ellis there. Statistically can he avg more than 4.8 pts and 4 boards a game if his role is similar to last years?

Last year we saw vast improvement from Traylor. His FG % would have been the highest in the country I believe if he had the min amount of shot attempts to qualify. He showed he is much quicker than most 4's. He shot much better as a FT shooter for most of the yr then previously shown. I believe he can be a 70% + shooter from the stripe. Even showed glimpse's of a jump-shot so he's made great strides. His rebounding and weak side shot blocking were very good and his energy in games is exactly what this team needs. Not to mention if Self ever pressed he's got a tall athletic kid on the front line.

He still can continue to improve defensively and honing in on less fouls. A good example that sticks in my head is how badly Nash of Oklahoma St. made Traylor look on several occasions last year. I think defense is the biggest improvement he can make because he has already come so far on offense.

If Traylor was 2-3 inches taller he'd probably start at C or be pressing Ellis for the Starting PF spot. Because he's not tall enough, he is as good a 6th man as we may ever have the next 2 years.

@JayHawkFanToo said:> @BeddieKU23

Not a lot of players average a double-double over a season and even less do it as freshmen. Some biog names at KU such as Gooden, Collison, Simien and TRob finally accomplished that in the last year at KU; Aldrich did it as a sophomore but not as junior. Expecting a freshman to "average" a double-double over a season is a tall order.

I absolutely agree that it's very hard for any player, much less a freshman to avg a double double. Do I think its going to happen, probably not but I definitely think 10 boards a game is something he could easily average. I think his rebounding translates as good as T-Rob was. Will his offense come with it?

Given that he will be the 3rd or 4th offensive option will probably limit his scoring average unless he truly is that dominate. I see Selden and Ellis getting the looks before he does, and then you have to account for Oubre or whoever plays the other guard position (I believe it will be Oubre for forecasting sake).

Alexander will be very good. He will struggle with fouls, probably struggle with free throw's some as well. I do think his toughness and physicality will help him punish front-courts though. Other than Ridley, in the big 12 he will not face a big-man that will be able to push him around.

The high-low offense should really benefit him as he will be able to seal his man for easy hoops. Defensively we can expect him, if he starts to lead the team in rebounding and blocks. He will be a good weak-side shot blocker and will get any rebound in his area. Those 2 attributes can be counted on from day 1. If he can limit his fouls, averaging a double double is not out of the question.

Graham isn't going to be this years savior at PG. He's what almost 2 years older than most 2014 recruits and he was the 3rd best player on his Brewster team behind Copeland (going to Georgtown) and Terrell (going to Oklahoma State). Big schools are involved because he is the sole remaining talent remaining at the PG spot.

Plus he's been a lean to NC State since Capel accused them off tampering for his services after he had a good senior season. He was a fringe top 100 kid in his original class and now is considered in the top 50 area by some after a strong season this year which saw his prep school win the championship. He should be a considerably high ranked player with almost 2 more years of maturity to the average high school senior.

I think he is checking KU out to see if NC State isn't where he should go. NC State has Cat Barber as their starter after Lewis left for Butler. He will be a role player at either school, either Barber's back up or fighting 3 other PG's at Kansas who already have a year or 3 years in the program. I would prefer Self to develop what he has especially Mason and Franny as both of them provide different elements to the game.

Maybe I was a little ruff in saying Self lost the game, as much as the players. I think the way we lost left a bad taste and I'm hashing out at anyone. But I did make some valid points about the defense. Why has he been so stubborn about sticking with man defense when we gave up 50 in the first half, and then gave up 12 pts so quickly right after half. By that point Wiggins and Selden had what 3 and 4 fouls each. Why not switch D's and stop Staten from driving and make them make outside shots. I know they made outside shots anyway (harris made what everything). Williams a terrible shooter made what 7 jump shots and a slew of free throws.

In the past he has switched it up when things weren't working, but this year has totally forgotten their are other ways to slow a team down. As athletic as we are without Embiid we were truly exposed on multiple levels and I just thought Self did minimal too stop the bleeding.

I thought Self lost the game as much as the players with their first half and early second half performance. It was clear that they were making anything they wanted so why not change defense's. I'm sick of the we have to play man because that's KU basketball. His pride get's in his way in these situations. I don't care if they haven't practiced zone, or any change of pace defense, that's on him for not getting these kids practice time at it. It was awful watching players continually come off screens and knocking down non contested 3 point shots. Or Staten getting to the lane at will. The Ref's sucked, our effort was even worse for 30 minutes.
Missed free throws and rebounding cost us the game in the comeback. Mason, Lucas, Traylor and Wig's all missed free throws that would have made it closer. WV got a lot of 2nd chance rebounds during the comeback that just proved it wasn't KU's day!

Baylor is not a good offensive team and our good defense statistically last night had nothing to do with KU stopping them as much as they missed shots. They don't have anyone who can create shots and KU was able to hedge on a lot of screens yesterday knowing that they didn't have players who can hurt them.

When Baylor came down the court were you worried about anyone other than Heslip finding time to shoot a 3? 3 days ago Texas got whatever they wanted against KU, although just a subpar game all around was a big part of the Texas loss.

When Tharpe is having a hot shooting night we can expect to win almost every time because his impact on the rest of the game skyrockets. Great effort from him off his bad Texas game.

Interested to see how we do in Allen against WVU. Henderson and Harris are shooters that have hurt us all year. Staten has improved a lot and gets in the lane a whole bunch. Will we see Waco Tharpe or Texas Tharpe? Big advantage inside for KU, I'm sure half of West Virginia's shots will be 3's.

I agree that tonight's game could be an emotional letdown. I think the only thing that may keep us from doing that is playing in Allen will help us tremendously and Baylor as a collective has played horribly here.

I think that we may see a letdown more because of Baylor playing a zone all night then the young guys not having the same emotional high as saturday. Yes Oklahoma State played zone and pressed and all that but Baylor is a much bigger team especially in the front court.

Having watched some of Baylor's games if we limit PG Cherry from going off then we pretty much shutdown their team. He's in the Pierre Jackson mold and we all know what Jackson did against us during his career. I don't think Defensively Tharpe or Mason will stay in front of him so hopefully he misses shots and our bigs block and alter his shots at the rim. Their front-court is big but that's also a strength of KU so really Baylor's only chance is to shoot lights out and hope that KU struggles against the zone.

Keys to the game.
1. 3 point shooting.
2. Don't let the ball stick on offense.
3. Limit Cherry.
4. Keep a man on Heslip at all times.

Glad we pulled this game out and moved to 4-0 in Conference Play. We couldn't have played any better the 1st half and any worse the 2nd.

I was truly upset at how this game was refereed from the beginning. How Traylor gets a Technical foul with a forearm from Brown is beyond me. At that point the ref's lost the game and it only continued on. Selden made a bonehead play standing over Smart but drew a technical on Clark. Embiid's Technical was a result of his past 2 in games and will be magnified by future ref's in upcoming games. We didn't seem to gain any calls without being punished as well. Every time they went to the monitor it went against KU. And I know the NCAA will be all over the ref's for the double foul on the block/charge on Traylor. Pathetic ending to that play and one that should have never been taken to the monitor.

There was a lot of positives. Tharpe has morphed into our leader and a guy who can bail us out in late clock situations. His shooting has been critical to their success.
Traylor and Black have really grown into their backup roles and provide a bruising energy when they are not fouling. This was one of their good games. When they foul and have turnovers they are not the asset they can be when they both play well together. Traylor's free throw shooting has been probably his biggest improvement in year 2. I haven't seen many talk about how much better his form has been.
Embiid has probably taken just about anyone with a pair of eyes by surprise at just how dominate he can be when he stays in the game. He is becoming more of the Withey eraser at the rim every passing game. Monday night against a big front-court will give him a big challenge. Only troubling thing has been his Technical fouls and the ref's will gang up on him if he continues to make silly plays. Otherwise like the million commentators and stories about him say, his potential is limitless.

Not really going to get in real in depth about the negatives because KU won the game and it was an emotional atmosphere against a top team. Our 3 point defense year in and year out is down right unbelievably bad. How we let Forte and Brown make 10 second half 3 pointers without seemingly blinking is just bad. I mean the scouting report says these both can hit anything over half court. Brown has scorched us his entire career. Forte won the game for them last year in Allen, how do we not have a game-plan to stop them from free willing it. We had a game plan against Smart on ball screens which really worked the first half but after he missed a dozen shots shouldn't they have worried about them. We certainly missed Releford on a night like this. Wiggins was ineffective in his minutes tonight and has been the closest thing to a lockdown defender as we have. But he wasn't himself tonight and we had nobody to guard the 2 man second half team.