🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@Kip_McSmithers Hope springs eternal - but I wouldn't bet on that...

@Kip_McSmithers Gonna need him fresh for a step back 3 in the last minute.

@Statmachine Doesn't seem conceivable that he could get EVERY available player, but UK has had the top ranked class several years running (might have been 2nd once). Already the top ranked of guys coming in and the expectation is that Calipari will get 1-2 more - esp. if he does lose 5-7 this time. Again, kudos to him - it's worked. But, because of the numbers you cited, just not replicable by others if he gets his usual haul - simply because there are not enough uber guys to go around.

@Statmachine Actually, I believe UK has had 10 OADs in the past 5 years, and a few more TADs - Wall, Cousins, Randle, Young, Noel, Knight, Kidd-Gilchrist, AD, Teague and Bledsoe. And, probably a couple more this year (although Towns has actually made noises about staying) - so not exactly close to KU.

You are absolutely right that most college freshmen don't have what it takes to play in the NBA - or at least contribute right away. But, there are always a handful and they are almost always at the top of the draft boards. I think about a dozen freshmen are on most NBA draft boards this year, but some of those won't declare - and only a handful will be NBA all-star caliber.

Do I want Self recruiting top tier talent - yes. Do I think it's Fool's Gold to focus primarily on likely OADs - yes. For Kansas, not necessarily UK or Duke. Only one school has been able to do that consistently, and Duke seems to be edging that way. But, I think they have unique recruiting advantages that will typically give them a leg up on be able to consistently get the top guys. In any event, it's a high risk play to wait until the end of the process and count on snagging the top talent necessary to fill roster holes when those guys may also be looking at UK, Duke, UNC, and Arizona.

@drgnslayr Good points. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting we forego recruiting elite players altogether, some of whom may be OADs. It's more a question of emphasis - really gets to your points about developing players (yes!), blending them in, and balancing the roster - all spot on. What I do think is problematic - for Self and KU, perhaps in contrast to UK and Duke - is trying to sign multiple OADs in a single class for the reasons I outlined - apart from the question of whether they will be primary drivers of a deep run if not a NC, they will leave gaping holes in the roster and it gets you into a never ending cycle - and I just don't think we will ever be able to sign 2-3 of the top 10 every year.

Also, I don't at all look at UK this year as an example of the failure of the OAD approach - to the contrary, Calipari has demonstrated that he can reload with multiple new OADs each year and make deep runs consistently. Rather, I look at the success of Wisconsin and MSU, along with UConn and Louisville in prior years, as well as KU's past teams, as pretty dispositive evidence that you can win consistently with really good coaching, solid systems/schemes, and really good, if not elite talent. If Wisconsin prevails tonight, that will mean that exactly ZERO OAD focused champions since 2012.

Repeating myself, but there are two paths to the mountaintop - both can get you there. But, unless we really think we can get the top class every year of newbies, which I don't (apart from personally not wanting to go down that road), then I think the focus of recruiting should be on 4-5 star guys that are much more likely to be around at least two years, complemented by the occasional OAD uber talent.

Most importantly, recruit guys that want to play for KU! I miss the Hinrich, Collison, Collins, and Releford types, and yes, even Reed and Morningstar. Don't want to have to rely on some of those as starters, but as key role guys, absolutely.

@JayHawkFanToo Alas, I remember that game all too well. You are right, the guy that lit it up for UK was one of their soph TADs, Doron Lamb. But, they started 3 frosh (Kidd-Gilchrist and Teague in addition to Davis). Another soph, Jones, also started. Darius Miller, a senior, came off the bench, but played almost starter minutes. All 5 of their starters left and were drafted.

We are on the cusp of the championship game, pitting another veteran, non OAD "system" team against a team heavily reliant on OADs and freshmen (and, arguably, formerly "system" to at least some extent, although perhaps less so now. Not quite the same dichotomy as Wisconsin and UK, but pretty close. In that vein, I'm trying to pull together various threads over the past week (indeed, entire season) regarding recruiting strategy and the merits or lack thereof of aggressively pursuing OADs.

HCBS earlier this year used the term "Fool's Gold" to express his disdain? for (over)reliance on 3 pt shots in offensive scheming. I would argue that the real Fool's Gold is making OADs central to the recruiting strategy, at least for KU and Self. Here's why:

First, OADs don't fit his system well - apart from learning the nuances, it requires strong fundamental skills that too many OADs obviously lack, on both offense and defense. What most OADs bring, at least on the offensive side, is shot-making and creativity, both of which are undervalued in the H/L, at least until the end of the shot clock. How many bigs during the past few years have come in with strong back-to-the basket skills and post moves - Okafor, Parker, Towns, and maybe Randle?

Two, it leads to recruiting over current players, resulting in transfers and even more program turnover, and may make it more difficult to get really good 3-4 star players (particularly to commit early).

Third, there are only 10-15 prospective OADs in each class, and only half of those actually live up to the hype - and, you can't really know in advance which those will be (Alexander anyone?).

Fourth, at least as long as Calipari is at UK, it's pretty clear that is the first choice of most of the elites - whether it's Cal's charm, Shoe Co, JayZ, Drake, Ashley, path to the NBA, cash on the barrel head or all of the above doesn't really matter. What is means is that we're waiting around until late spring every year to see what happens with UK - and, if we strike out with who is still uncommitted, then we are in full desperation mode trying to fill with 3 stars that no one else wanted, de-commits, and graduate transfers.

Fifth, and most importantly, based on the results from the past few years, it appears that the OAD approach only succeeds if you are really able to get multiple guys at the top of the class to commit - being able to put overwhelming talent on the floor, regardless of (in)experience level. The numbers don't work - this is really a basic math problem. If there are just 10-15 prospective OADs each year, let's assume UK gets 3-4, Duke 1-2 and AZ 1-2 (esp. the west coast guys), then the real pool for us becomes smaller. I would argue it's simply more challenging for KU and Self to get the guys - some of it is system, some of it is Shoe Co, some of it is the Midwest and relative exposure.

That's the theory - what's the evidence. I would argue that we've seen all 5 problems manifest themselves at KU the past few years. We've had the consensus 2nd and 4th ranked classes the past two years (and 13th and 18th before that) - with 9 and 10 loss seasons and early exits to show for it. Correlation, but not necessarily causation. Let's look at the broader "market".

There are clearly too models for relatively consistent deep tournament runs and championships. One is the Nike stack, multiple OAD approach - let's face it, it works. Maybe not guaranteeing championships, but UK now has 4 FFs in the past 5 years, and add Duke this year. AZ has 2 straight E8s. The other approach is the antithesis of the OAD/stack approach - teams led primarily by tough, experienced veterans, maybe augmented by underclassmen. MSU and Wisconsin this year are illustrative. Just look at their class rankings over the past 4 years (basically comprising their current rosters): MSU - 50th, >50th, 12th and 23rd. Wisconsin - >50th, 45th, 45th, and 50th. Izzo does recruit and occasionally gets elite players, but it certainly doesn't appear that he is all in on OADs. Over the past 5 years, including the incoming class, I think he's had just 3 5 stars - Dawson, Harris and an incoming player. Trice was a 3; Valentine a 4. Ryan has had just 1 - Dekker. Kaminsky and Jackson were 3s.

Apart from MSU and Wisconsin this year, look at 3 of the last 4 champions - Louisville and UConn twice. None of them had OAD stacks - I don't think they had any OADs - they were characterized by veteran teams that played defense and had great guard play.

Let's look at KU in this context. Self brought us 6 30 win seasons in 7 years with 1 NC, another FF, and 2 E8s - all without reliance on OADs. Indeed, very few top 10-15 recruits. Those were all typical Self teams - hard-nosed, strong rebounding, difficult to score upon, pound it inside. It worked and it worked consistently. Don't know about you, but I loved it. A lot of guys that may not have been particularly talented (e.g, Reed, Morningstar, Releford) but they understood the system, and more, importantly, bled Jayhawk blue. They wanted to play for Kansas.

What happened? We lost the '12 championship with a classic Self type team to a UK stack of OADs and TADs. We were out-talented - even more obviously so when you look at the NBA (non)careers of the guys on those teams. I would argue that was a great coaching job by Self - we got to the finals with and hung with an uber talented UK team with a bunch of primarily 3-4 star guys. Rather than tweak a bit, I personally think Self overreacted to that loss and decided he had to compete with Calipari on his own terms - which, for him and KU, is the Fool's Gold approach.

We'll see how the next few weeks play out. Maybe Self will get Diallo or Maker, and Brown, in addition to Bragg. 2 OADs and one likely TAD - matched up with the returning veterans, it could be pretty formidable. But, if I had to bet, I would bet that we don't get any of them. Then Self is begging to get Thorne for a year, maybe some Euro lug (a la Gonzaga) and trying to pick up juco or unwanted 3 star.

I'm not sure whether I hope I'm wrong or not. My own preference is to go after the 15-75 guys who will be around 2-4 years, who learn the system, and most, importantly, want to play for Kansas, rather than us being a second or third choice and brief way station in their basketball lives.

@drgnslayr Well, I for one have been in various posts been trying to do exactly as you say - extolling the coaching virtues, well at least capabilities, of the coaches who have succeeded with
clearly lesser talent. To be fair, Izzo has gotten a lot of attention this past couple of weeks for his remarkable tournament record with relatively few top recruits. Also to be fair, Izzo has 1 NCS and K has 4 - could be 5 after tomorrow (although I hope not). Whatever else you think about them, Calhoun and Pitino have done pretty well in the tourney without many OAD or elite talents. I would put Self is similar company - KU has had good talent, but not really top tier (until the last 2 years classes; and look how those turned out - but discussion for another thread...).

PS - and agree completely re Ryan and the Badgers.

@Statmachine 247 has their own ratings, but what is most followed is their composite of all ratings - aggregate something like 30 or 40. Some probably follow the AAU circuit closely, others probably are, as you say, clowns. But the wisdom of the crowds usually has some merit. Also important to track is the trend - a lot of the predictions are very stale - the more recent ones might have a touch more validity. Brown's statement that he would only go to an Adidas school was recent - just guessing that many of the predictions predated that. Trending is that Brown will end up at UCLA - but who really knows. Diallo was trending to SJU post Mullins hire and his hire of the ISU assistant who was recruiting him.

@drgnslayr @approxinfinity Not a fan of Duke, but you have to give K credit - he had his own way of doing things and has adapted pretty effectively. Lengthy article in the Washington Post today by John Feinstein. Notes that K saw mid-season that this year's team, which had 3 freshmen starters and another frosh playing significant minutes off the bench would "struggle to play the aggressive, attacking man to man defense that had become his calling card" - sound familiar? So, when they lost back to back games by wide margins to NCS and Miami - and, that point, they had lousy defensive efficiency ratings - he "resorted to his least favorite 4 letter word: zone." They are 20-2 since then. Would love to see a bit of that adaptability in HCBS. And, while Duke may have been once stacked with McDs, they have just 8 scholarship players now.

@jaybate-1.0 I can't keep track of what constitutes a component of a "stack," but Wisconsin has 2 clear first rounders - Kaminsky and Dekker - and both are potential lottery picks. Whether Dekker declares or not is another matter. As for MSU, Dawson shows up on some draft boards in the 2nd round. I don't know whether they were McDs, but Dekker and Dawson were both consensus 5 stars coming in - both ranked in the top 20 in their classes - they are the only 5 stars on either team. I believe Kaminsky was only a 3 star. My guess is what shoes they wear didn't have much of an impact on these guys...

@wissoxfan83 At least until the Badgers and Jayhawks meet in next year's FF!

@Crimsonorblue22 Well, I'm as happy about the Badgers win as any Jayhawk win this year.

On Wisconsin!!!!!!!!!!!!

@VailHawk What's it worth to you? Refs clearly have a price...

Badgers are getting jobbed....

Well played game. Only 7 TOs total by both teams - we typically have that many in the first 7 minutes. Wisconsin is awfully good, but not sure they can hold UK at bay for another half. If the Harrisons play the 2nd half like the 1st, they have a lot of ways to score. Badgers are a disciplined bunch, however - would love to see them pull this out.

On a laptop. Yours just popped up now, but it was completely empty before that. Showed another new one when I logged on, but when I clicked on the bell it disappeared. No older ones in there. Doesn't really matter - just thought you might want to know.

@approxinfinity Appears notifications may have disappeared?

@truehawk93 I'm no fan of Calipari or UK, but one thing is very clear - UK players do a whole lot better in the pros than KU players do. He may not be coaching them up, but if he does recognize and let them play to their strengths, then one can argue that's pretty effective coaching. I also give the UK players credit, because they do put effort in on the defensive end and they share the ball on the offensive end. They may be prima donnas, but they actually play as a unit pretty well....

@drgnslayr Both Diallo and Bragg seem like high motor guys, but is there any particular basis for believing they could play the H/L coming in - play back to the basket - or kick out to guys open on the wing? I've seen a little tape of each, but not enough to have an informed opinion about it. Others? And, if Diallo is saying that he wants PT (without earning it), will HCBS give him that guarantee? So, Bragg gets fewer minutes, even though he might well be a 2 year guy? Unless, you suggest, Perry plays primarily the the 3. Where does that leave Svi and Greene - outside looking in (figuratively and literally)? Not much development going on and not much prospect of having a team that has experience playing together - guess that comes from the summer tour.

In any event, I'm somewhat skeptical that we'll get Diallo. All the trending predictions had him going to ISU, but that was before Mullins was hired at SJU, and he in turned hired the ISU assistant who had been recruiting Diallo. Coincidence, of course.

If not Diallo, then it gets a bit dicey. Zimmerman and Rabb are likely to stay on the west coast. Maker? Very raw, and likely to be a OAD, plus some potential eligibility issues. And, we have seen the UK hand played yet - if 2-3 of their bigs declare, you have to think that Calipari will add 1 or 2 more. May be grasping for Thorne or some overseas lunk at that point.

@jaybate-1.0 Not sure I can make sense of your numbers - vacuuming up OADs - top 130 players? There are typically only 10-15 projected OADs each year and not that many actually play to that level or end up declaring. Last year, 9 freshmen were drafted and 3 of those are NBDL or marginal NBA players.

This year, most draft boards have about 12 freshmen, and not all of those will actually declare (others may for different reasons, but they aren't true OADs and have no chance of being drafted). UK and Duke are the only ones with multiple likely potential first round OAD draft choices - and Jones from Duke and a couple of the UK guys may stick around.

What recent history tells us is that if you are relying primarily on OADs, you need to have multiple and they need to be guys that will be top 10 draft picks - you need overwhelming talent to overcome the lack of experience and other skill sets. You can get a lot of quality in the 10-50 ranking range that will almost certainly be around at least 2 years, many of them 3-4 years. If I think I can out-scheme you, then I would rather go into battle with hardened group of 2-4 year tested veteran players than with 2-3 untested (and possibly over-hyped) OADs.

The facts are that there are generally fewer than 10 truly elite freshmen each year. As long as Calipari is around, UK will probably getting the pick of the litter. Now that K is all in, he'll get a couple, maybe UNC, as well. AZ will get 1-2, esp. the west coast guys. Just not much more to spread around to KU or anyone else that may have a home court advantage.

I would argue that trying to chasing OADs every year and foregoing other talented 4-5 star players is the real Fool's Gold...

@nuleafjhawk Come on - that's not giving them their full due - they've helped end the run of 30 wins seasons - their quick departure helps creates more opportunities for more new guys - they help instill opponents with the confidence they can hang with Hawks, heck even beat them... ;)

@Crimsonorblue22 @justanotherfan did mention Embid in his post. So, even if Embid turns to be an NBA all-star, which I would love to see, that will be the first for a Self guy - big or small - of course, Wigs could get there pretty quickly. But, it doesn't come close to the UK record with bigs. Cousins is all-star caliber, Davis is close to all-world, and Noel had a monster night earlier in the week (believe 30 pts and 14 rbs) - on the same team where TRob gets bench minutes. And, UK may have the #1 pick in the upcoming draft.

@justanotherfan Alas, even with Oubre our wings weren't particularly strong this year. And, I would answer no to your questions. Frankly, with our current roster, I would be more confident in Svi at this point than either Selden or Greene on the wing. Maybe that is just wild-eyed optimism, but I think he has more upside a much more well rounded game.

@justanotherfan Good points. To the UK roster of bigs, you could of course add Towns, Lyles, and Cauley-Stein, each of whom is more likely to be successful in the pros than any of our bigs. With Duke, you could add Parker (although not really a big), who was playing at rookie of the year level until he got hurt. And, to add salt to the wound, both UK (Labissiere) and Duke (Jeter) have bigs already committed. I would be willing to bet UK adds 1 or 2 more once Calipari's OADs and TADs announce. Given that UK already has 2 5 star and 1 4 star commits, it's possible Cal gets a haul that is just as stacked as the past couple. Duke and Arizona aren't far behind.

It appears based on the last couple of years, that HCBS isn't stuck in the middle - he is fully committed to the UK and now Duke (and also Arizona) approach - go all in on OADs (which I still believe is a (over)reaction to the 2012 loss to UK). There are at least 5 problems with this approach.

First, OADs don't fit his system - apart from learning the nuances, it requires strong fundamental skills (e.g., passing into the post) that too many OADs obviously lack, and devalues individual creativity (other than at the end of the shot clock). Two, it leads to recruiting over current players, resulting in transfers and even more program turnover, and may make it more difficult to get really good 3-4 star players (particularly to commit early). Three, there are only 10-15 prospective OADs in each class, and only half of those actually live up to the hype - and, you can't really know in advance which those will be. Four, at least as long as Calipari is at UK, it's pretty clear that is the first choice of most of the elites, which means we will be at best a second choice - and have to wait until the dust settles to figure out how the class is shaping up - and, which means that if you strike out, you are in full desperation mode trying to fill with 3 stars that no one else wanted, de-commits, and graduate transfers. Five, and most importantly, based on the results from the past 3 or 4 years, it appears that the OAD approach only succeeds if you are really able to get multiple guys at the top of the class to commit - being able to put overwhelming talent on the floor, regardless of (in)experience level.

I would argue that we've seen all 5 problems manifest themselves at KU the past few years. We've had the consensus 2nd and 4th ranked classes the past two years (and 13th and 18th before that) - with 9 and 10 loss seasons and early exits to show for it. This year? Maybe we will end up with Diallo or Maker and Newman or Brown, but we could very well strike out. The only one that we are slight favorite to get according to the "experts" is Diallo.

Your point about two approaches to getting to the mountaintop is a good one. You point to MSU and Wisconsin this year. Illustrative to look at their class rankings over the past 4 years (basically comprising their current rosters): MSU - 50th, >50th, 12th and 23rd. Wisconsin - >50th, 45th, 45th, and 50th. @BeddieKU23 Izzo does recruit and occasionally gets elite players, but it certainly doesn't appear that he is all in on OADs. Over the past 5 years, including the incoming class, I think he's had just 3 5 stars - Dawson, Harris and Davis. Trice was a 3; Valentine a 3 or 4. Ryan has had just 1 - Dekker. Kaminsky and Jackson were 3s.

Apart from MSU and Wisconsin this year, look at 3 of the last 4 champions - Louisville and UConn twice. None of them had OAD stacks - I don't think they had any OADs - characterized by veteran teams that played defense and had great guard play.

We may be stuck in no man's land right now, but it is the result of pursuing the one approach and foregoing the other.

@HighEliteMajor Interesting re Brown. If you take him at his word, then that would likely mean UCLA or KU. 247's prediction composite has UCLA at 42%, KU just 6%.

First time I've ever heard a kid so publicly state that it's primarily a Shoe Co decision. Really sad, but I guess that is the recruiting reality these days.

Perhaps it warrants a new thread and extended discussion, but is there anyone out there that really wants to play for Kansas or play for Self anymore??? We used to get those kids, and they bled KU. Gym rats. Maybe 4 stars, instead of 5, but with a high BBall IQ. Why can Duke get early commits from 5 stars like Jeter and Kennard, but the guys we're hard after seem to wait to see how it plays out at UK first?

@drgnslayr Your last sentence says it all...

Seriously, do you will think that Wooden's Pac 8 title string is "legendary" and a critical part of his legacy? Not 7 consecutive NCs? 10 total? Greatest teacher of the game? Take a look at his Wiki page - nary a mention of the conference streak in the paragraphs highlighting his accomplishments.

The conference streak is great and all, mostly reflecting consistency and domination of inferior competition (no B12 schools other than KU making it to the FF during the streak), but legacies are mostly built on NCs and to lesser extent FFs.

@drgnslayr The consensus is that Izzo is one of the top coaches in college ball - maybe top 3. Why? It's not conference titles - he has 7 in 20 years. It's the frequent deep tournament runs, esp without OADs and top NBA caliber talent. It's not all about March - it's just mostly about March. Willing to take losses early in the season. Tough schedules. Sitting guys, even his best players - like Trice this year - if they're not performing to his expectation or if they're not blocking out and defending.

Reports are that Barnes and Tennessee have reached an agreement.

@nuleafjhawk You have SECOND. And, a SECOND point - who knows how many B10 titles Izzo has? Does anyone care or give that a SECOND thought? The focus is on the E8s and FFs, not not making it to the SECOND weekend.

@jaybate-1.0 Why would you think Devonte would transfer? Wouldn't surprise me if he is our best 2-way player next year - and, if he stays all 4 years, I would attach a high probability to him being 1st team all-B12 his senior year - and one of the best PGs at KU.

@dylans For what it's worth, 247, which aggregates 42 different signing predictions, gives only a 12% chance to KU of getting Newman - behind UK, Miss. St. and LSU.
@jaybate-1.0 If Selden wants to become a defensive specialist, he needs to dramatically improve his defense, esp. footwork and positioning.

@FarSideHawk Yes, sorry. Rabb staying on west coast.

@wrwlumpy Assume that would mean sayonara to Hunter? If Self inks Thorne, does that have an impact on Diallo or Maker? Landon, Ellis, Traylor and Rabb already in the 4-5 slots (that also assumes, of course, that Alexander is gone). How many more are realistic?

@joeloveshawks Great come back. Especially agree with the last sentiment!

I guess I care about the rest of the league for two reasons. One is a belief that playing against at least some E8/FF caliber teams after December would help better prepare for the tournament. Nothing really empirical to back that up. The only factual point is that the B12 hasn't had a FF team other than KU in the past decade, and only a couple of E8s. The second reason is more from a legacy standpoint. It devalues the conference championship string at least somewhat if there aren't really good challengers. No one gives any credence at all to Gonzaga's string, with good reason. They do with KU's, but it always seems to come with a qualification. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to the talking heads. But I suspect that even a 5 or 6 stretch of consecutive championships in the ACC or B10 would be viewed as an even more remarkable run.

@BeddieKU23 Agree that the schedule has been brutal, and it would be nice to get a handful of laughers. And, I definitely prefer 30+ win seasons to the last couple of years. Having said that, I would even more prefer more deep runs in March. Various comparisons have been made to MSU/Izzo. Here's another one - in his 9 E8 or better runs, his teams have averaged 8 losses per season - more if you take out the 3 consecutive FFs at the end of the 90s - and only 1 30 win season since then. Do we put too much emphasis on the regular season?

@drgnslayr I was equally struck by the other part of HCBS's comments - that the schedule needed to be "softened" because some of the non-conf guarantee games required 40 minutes of effort, the implication being that he couldn't work in less experienced guys, esp. like Svi and Hunter. It appears that he took the tack this year that he had to really shorten his rotation early in order to minimize the risk of a couple of meaningless non-conf losses. I would more than willing to take an extra loss or two during the season if it meant that we had fresher legs during March and more guys that we could turn to in crunch time, because they had been there. Izzo has always said that he's willing to take a few L's during the early part of the season to get this team where he wants to be at the end. He sat Trice for a while earlier in the year to make a point or two. It gave him the confidence to put in a freshmen like Clark in crunch time. Most years we have a depth of talent edge over most any other team - but it doesn't do much good if you don't advantage of it...

The FF is set - all blue-bloods. Interestingly, 2 OAD stacks and 2 "system" guys bereft of OADs. Of course, B12 participation in the tournament is a distant memory. Yes, the topic head is intentionally provocative. I've always defended the B12 against my usually obnoxious East Coast colleagues - but, that is getting increasingly difficult to do.

With all the talk about the strength of the conference this year (which, I would argue was really a balance, rather than strength matter), our performance in the tournament was unfortunately very similar to the past two tourneys.

So, apart from the provocation, the facts. Conference records in the tournament during the past 3 years (with 3 games still pending):

B12: 14-19
B10: 35-18
ACC: 27-15
SEC: 22-10
P12: 21-15
BE: 20-17

It's not a matter of bids - we've gotten more than anyone except the B10 (1 fewer). It's not because we're always facing higher seeded teams - our win total this year based on seeds was 10; we got half that. It's the luck of the draw or crapshoot argument rings a bit hollow when you look at the aggregate numbers. When it comes to the tournament, we're more A-10 level - 13-14 the past 3 years.

You may disagree with the provocative premise. I would rather focus on the WHY? of these results. Non-conference scheduling? True round robin conference scheduling (i.e., beating each other up)? Coaching? Recruiting? All of the above? Other factors? Perhaps it is cyclical, rather than structural? If cyclical, it's been a long cycle. The last stretch in which the conference as a whole performed well in the tourney was '02-'04.

My own view is that it is attributable primarily to a talent deficit, and a rather significant one, compared to the other power conferences. Simply put, we're not attracting many of the top tier guys to B12 schools, and we're not yielding top NBA caliber talent. KU gets good, but until last year, not really elite level talent (of course, this year, we supposedly had 2 top 15 guys...). Who else? Texas? It's been a long time since Durant and Aldridge. Turner maybe? Smart at OSU. ISU is typically transfers and jucos. Going back a decade, I think the conference has yielded just 3 NBA all-star caliber players to this point - Durant, Aldridge and Griffin. Wigs may get there. Maybe Kieff will get there. Who am I missing?

Agree, disagree? If you agree that we have a talent deficit, why? Too tough to recruit in the midwest/plains (but explain the difference with the B10)? No natural recruiting hotbeds (Texas?)? Paucity of good recruiters (except Self and Barnes?)?

Do we resign ourselves to continued mediocrity? What can "we" do to change recent trends????

What I'm struck by is Winslow's energy level and passion as contrasted, say, with Oubre.

@justanotherfan I definitely do not like UK or Calipari, but I have to agree. They played smart, unselfish basketball, esp. down the stretch. They did not miss a shot - did not miss a FT. Tightened up D when they needed. No one forced shots. As for Calipari, give him credit as he did what we often want HCBS to do - took advantage of a mismatch. ND had no one who could stop Towns and they got him the ball in the right position every damn time down the court - and he put it in the hole every damn time.

Not generally a ND fan either, but was so hoping they would pull out the win. Also have to admire they way they pass, cut and share the ball - just as they did against WSU. Fun to watch...

@JRyman Gee, while I recognize that there appear to be a lot of Marshall haters out, is there any doubt he is really good coach? What he has done, in a relatively short time, at WSU is remarkable. They have 150 wins over the past 5 years - second to UK. Sure, he wouldn't have had nearly that many in any of the power 5 conferences, but WSU has consistently beaten good team out of conference and in the tournament - and he has done it without elite talent.

No, he hasn't proven himself as a recruiter, but if he ends up at Texas, he will undoubtedly get access to better talent than he has been able to attract to Wichita. IMO, even if he doesn't recruit the top tier, if he is able to get consistent good talent to UT, I think they will be a formidable opponent year in and out. Does anyone out there really believe that he wouldn't deliver more than Barnes has over the past 7 years?

@approxinfinity I really hope our guys have watched the past two games - seeing a couple of teams with high bball IQ. Wisconsin using head and ball fakes. ND with cuts and using the rim to hold off the swatters.

@jayhawk-007 Interesting, but if this was written 2013 and hasn't been updated, as appears to be case, then the results would certainly be different with '14 and '15 results included. Indeed, almost all on this list (except Florida, Syracuse and UCLA) would have picked up substantial additional points relatively to KU - esp. UConn with title last year, and UK with runner-up last year and at least an E8 this year, and MSU, with at least E8 the past two years. Not sure how the scoring works, but it seems possible that 5 schools would pass KU with the last two years added?

@DoubleDD Absolutely agree with you that if you are going to stick to a system, then it is better to recruit to fit the system. However, I disagree that the system schools and coaches are falling by the wayside. Izzo is definitely a system coach, who has made relatively minor concessions to allow some additional freedom to his better guards, and just made his umpteenth E8. Pitino consistently wins without elite talent. Ryan is a system coach and has had continued success. I would also partially disagree with the statement that if you play a system you will get beat by pure talent. Capable, veteran teams (with emphasis on team) routinely beat teams with more talent. An overwhelming talent advantage, however, is likely to prevail much more often than not - certainly the case with UK this year, and Duke and Arizona also have multiple elite players. Interesting that you have 3 schools in the E8 that are all in on chasing OADs and 3 that classic "system" coaches/teams.

It appears that Self is trying to play it both ways, and we've seen how that has played out the past couple of years...

@drgnslayr Not sure travel schedules account for it. Not sure what conferences "back east" you are thinking of, but while they may have a few more shorter travel games (e.g., Duke-UNC-WF-NCSt) all of the leagues are pretty far flung now, arguably more so than the B12. WVU is the only real haul for most of our teams. ACC ranges from Boston to Miami. Big East from DC to Omaha. American Athletic covers half the friggin' country - and UConn won it all last year coming from that conference.

@BeddieKU23 Great insight on Bragg and Diallo! Thanks. Seems like everyone and their grandmother is after the Charlotte big. Have no doubt Landon will work hard and continue to improve. Just don't think he has the size, quickness and skills (fundamentals are solid) to really be effective down low and take the pressure off Perry.

@ralster Agree. While I would be thrilled to have us a snag a real shooting star (literally and figuratively) every now and then, I would prefer to see us build traditional veteran Self teams with much better than average, even if not truly elite, that defend and don't quit. That formula yielded a string of 30+ win seasons and I NC and 1 runner-up. Miss those days - seems like we've gotten away from it more recently....