@JayHawkFanToo Unrelated to Bill Self, I had understood some coaches do have direct deals with shoe companies. Maybe I'm wrong. I thought Roy had one with Nike.
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
Always feel bad for a guy that loses opportunity by just sitting. But man, if you transfer to a place like Kansas, do you not know that it is a HUGE risk? He has five years to play four, so he can still end up with three years of competition in total.
That is some Charlie-passion right there. Maybe Charlie will be bit like the other Moore we borrowed from SMU (Nic)?
There is an argument that Vick will be the best player on the team. He'd be my pick right now. We should never underestimate Vick coming back. This is a monumental turn of events. The psychology of "why" he came back, and "how" it played out gives it an even better twist. He could be the conference POY.
@JayHawkFanToo Semi-fiction. Spin. Half-truths. Meaning, it was not nearly as firm and as dire as you suggest. He was raw, of course. No doubt. But many players are raw, and BB IQ is a challenge. But what Self did not do, which other coaches do, which Self has done since (see DeSousa -- who looked lost, etc), is give the player regular minutes, and let him play through his mistakes to reach a higher level of play. Take some lumps to get to the goal of a more complete player by March. It was just a choice not to do that because Self had a security blanket, a reliable, smart player who knew what he was doing. Self eschewed the mountain top for a trip to the hills. Lucas flailed against the better D-1 competition you refer to .. see the undeniable evidence vs. Nova and then vs. Oregon in EE losses. We had no scoring down low vs. Nova when we couldn't counter their anti-Ellis defense, and Lucas was out of his league vs. Oregon.
Somehow, this guy you defame has played 70 NBA games in two seasons, and Lucas is, well, you know.
@KUSTEVE I've always felt the player decision thing was a bit of a hoax on Diallo. I think it was done by Self, shrewdly, because he knew what he result would be and he wanted that result. Gave him possible cover in putting a top 5 player in hibernation on the recruiting trail. It would also have the effect of helping bond the team more. And, of course, it did -- witness the winning streak after scrapping the center by committee thing. On the other hand, we needed a scoring threat low vs. Nova in the EE when Nova schemed against Ellis. He was on the bench. He then played in the NBA a matter of months after Self scrapped him. Lucas, meanwhile, is playing for the Tokyo HamFighters or Dragonflies or a team named after Toyota, or some such nonsense -- last I heard.
@Crimsonorblue22 Truthfully, it depends. Generally, I'm fine with barking or a comment here and there. "Going off" ... that would be for a major, major deal in my opinion. To the general point, I don't support Mangino when he went off on an official at at HS game. As the KU coach, he should have considered time, place, and his position. But that doesn't color my opinion that his ouster was nothing more than a witch hunt. I have mentioned this before, but I spoke directly to a former KU player who was close with the program, at the time of his firing, who used that exact term. Lots of info that he had.
Oh my gosh, the idea of a football coach being a "jerk." I mean, what is the world coming too? It the pussification of America. Thank you to a portion of America. Bunch of pansies. Victim mentality. Snowflakes. Good thing they don't see Marine corp training.
“I haven’t heard one thing to the contrary with any of our guys,” Self began. “Now that doesn’t mean that that can’t happen. But I haven’t heard one thing to the contrary — all our guys were cleared by the NCAA. They were eligible last year and we haven’t heard anything that that was not the case still.”
“What we’ve read is the same thing as everybody else has read,” Self said. “But to the extent of how that translates to eligibility, we haven’t been told anything on that.”
Although Self stated neither he nor the university have access to all the details surrounding the allegations, he painted an optimistic picture regarding De Sousa. “Based on what we’ve been told,” he said, “right now we’re in a good place.”
A recruit is not a coach. A recruit is just a recruit. He's a player. He's a cog in the system. He's earned nothing. He's accomplished nothing. Equating a player and coach is senseless.
I don't know. Why can the CEO of a company yell and stomp around like an idiot? Why can a star athlete act like a fool and get away with it? Because he's EARNED it. He's gotten to that point in his life where he has enough leverage to do what he wants to do. When folks have leverage, when they're a wanted commodity, they can get away with more.
But guys like that don't build equity. When they lose, those that are offended quickly turn. It's the risk of being a jerk. Such as happened in the Mangino witch hunt, where myth exceeded reality.
But there is a hierarchy in this world, and in society, which is EARNED by success. Not given. Troubling to some, I'm sure.
The reality with coaches is winning is the answer. When Tom Coughlin loses, he's too much of micro manager, he's too much of drill sergeant, he's a jerk, players hate him; when he wins, well, he has great attention to detail, he demands excellence, players look to him as a demanding leader. Same with the "players' coach."
@BeddieKU23 I agree on the leader thing. Folks can mature into being a leader, and folks can be shocked into reality. The change in perspective can be life altering. Now, of course, that might be too dramatic a wish here. But really, if he can just play his game on the Court and not be a distraction otherwise, we'd take that in a heartbeat. I am very optimistic -- first team all conference optimism.
@JayHawkFanToo Unfortunately there is no excuse. It was a miss by the coaching staff.
@Texas-Hawk-10 This is very simple. The flexbone, as I said, is akin to the double wing. Look at the two. An element of a flexbone offense is the triple option. The double wing ran a triple option -- FB read-option, then QB-wing option. Same as the flexbone. That's easy. Certainly, the folks you referenced ran the triple option. Look at the old wishbone formation. It is the wishbone "triple option" which formed much of the basis for the triple option portion of the flexbone. A lot of the same principles. This is educational clarity. All offenses build on the past. You are trying to extricate yourself from a hole and it ain't happening.
If we have no doubt he's better, would we be better firing Beatty now and just hiring him?
@JayHawkFanToo I hope you are right. If I were having to bet on a specific percentage, I'd go 31%. Your "mid to upper 30s" is a bold one.
It does beg the question. If Garrett could change his form and work on his shot in the offseason, what was Doke doing last summer? Dunno.
@BShark I meant to post about Garrett, but there was some articles written about how he's changed his jump shot and is working hard to be a better shooter.
http://www.gctelegram.com/sports/20180702/ku-sophomore-garrett-changing-shooting-form ↗
@Texas-Hawk-10 So now you’re giving more lessons. No, son. They did not run the same offense. You are just lost. The flexbone uses the basic set up of the old double wing. You need to stop. Continuing to talk is not a magical cure.
@Texas-Hawk-10 Of course it has a triple option component. A component. Just like the head coach at Georgia Tech coach said. But he's wrong too, according to you. There is a large difference, just like he said.
Again, the same question which you avoid. Where's the QB at Kansas -- I mean, since it's so easy to make the throws? It's now bordering on pathetic, your avoidance of now your lead point. How easy it is to make the throws.
The thing is .. and let this sink in .. the physical gifts and traits that make a good spread QB are much more finite and limited in this world than the gifts and traits of a flexbone QB. There are just more of that type of athlete available, that can operate under the flexbone. You'll find many of them playing safety, corner, wr, and rb.
But I know you know more than .. well .. anybody.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I truly love when someone like you references my "ignorance". Enjoyable. I'll just be nice and see if you have it within yourself, ever, to backtrack. "Ignorance" is a harsh word. Free your mind.
I take it you did see the win totals, right? Good grief (again). And you do understand that suggesting the flexbone is to get to respectability, right? As I've said. And you still ignore the lack of a QB. You just won't answer it. I know why.
You do realize that most flexbone offenses incorporate a triple option element, right? It's part -- a part -- of a flexbone offense. And you do understand the use of the wing in the flexbone vs. a pure, OU/NU style triple option? It's a common error that folks make, referring to the flexbone as the "triple-option." Way too simplistic. Well, nonetheless ...
"Paul Johnson is amused by the description of his offense as "the triple option." "The triple option is one play. We run it maybe twenty percent of the time," he remarked in a recent interview. "It would be like calling the I-formation the "sprint draw" offense!""
"Fans of Georgia Tech football know two things about Paul Johnson's "flexbone" option attack: One, it racks up gaggles of yards and points and two, it is consistently underrated by SEC-centric analysts and the football-watching public. But how much of what is said and written about the Georgia Tech offense is anything close to accurate?"
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1296563-seven-myths-about-paul-johnsons-georgia-tech-offense ↗
Other articles referencing the flexbone. Including one from the "flexbone academy" about Georgia Tech -
https://flexboneassociationacademy.com/2013/11/29/georgia-tech-offense-death-by-1000-cuts/ ↗
And one with Army/Navy -
@Texas-Hawk-10 I like how you "think" you know, despite indisputable evidence to the contrary. How you are so definitive. Again, despite solid, power 5 evidence to the contrary (Georgia Tech). Good grief.
The obvious good news is that KU didn't get a subpoena. That's good. Really good.
Back in the day, you were either a Bird guy, or Magic guy. You could not be both. I've come to appreciate Bird and the Celtics, over time. Kind of. But I was a 100% Magic guy. When you talk greatest players of all time, taking into account everything on the court, Magic is it for me.
@BShark @dylans I used to love the NBA .. went to many Kings games until they left. Really enjoyed the NBA through the 90s. After that, no so much. And now, I find the games unwatchable. That's been the case since for about 20 years. NBA players coast. It's not full out effort over the course of a game. Lots of walking around. Slow movements. Many uncontested or half contested shots.
The NBA is like coffee to me. I don't like coffee, but every so often I try it again hoping something will change.
I watch NBA late, a quarter here, a half here. But it's hard.
CBB, on the other hand, is magic to me. Great competition, full speed, no defensive limitations, strategy, incredible atmospheres -- and that's just the regular season. KU vs. Tennessee Tech? Well, not as attractive. A handful of games are not big deals.
But lots of folks love the NBA. I just want both to coexist, and not try to make one like the other.
Can Beatty now. Chaos ensues. Folks claim that all of the spring work is wasted. So what. Can Beatty now.
Please let us be a spring board; please let us be a spring board; please let us be a spring board.
Remember how risky ANY hire is here. An AD that clashes with Bill Self will end Self's tenure at Kansas. That's really what's at stake (is that better, @Lulufulu?)
@Texas-Hawk-10 Curious, what outstanding hires did Parker make as AD at CSU ... given that the decision for a football coach after this season looms as the big one? He may have been a fine choice. Just haven't heard of any big splashes there.
But that school does seem on the uptick.
And if he hired Petrino or Bielema, would you take either of those guys? I mean, since both of them apparently suck.
@Texas-Hawk-10 This is not a discussion on what is the better offense. There is no doubt that a spread is a much better offense for CFB. I would not even consider running the flexbone but for our dire circumstances. To dismiss it, though, given the clear evidence we have from a power 5 school is irrational. Further, the flexbone offers the unique preparation challenge that a basic solid running game does not. This puts the defense at a big disadvantage with one week to prepare. Focusing on the flexbone give a much better chance at eating the clock than does a "strong running game." Apples and oranges, really. Finally, I see no answer to why the use of the spread has failed miserably at KU -- lack of competent quarterback play.
@BShark What you feel is your business. I very much like and respect both of you. My observation was solely related to the consideration of creating a thread for the purpose.
@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 There was discussions of Vick being a point guard when he came to Kansas. There is no doubt he was listed as SG and that's been his only role here. The "Hurd" being referred to is Nathan Hurd, Vick's AAU coach. While I don't think he'll play PG this season, it is pretty clear that this was a discussion point.
“He’s a natural 2-guard, very athletic. Coach Self said he’s going to have him play the 1, 2 and 3,” Hurd said. “He’s tall enough to play the 3. Two is his natural position, and he can handle the ball well enough to play 1. He’s going to have to get there, work hard and learn coach Self’s stuff. Talent-wise, he’s one of the most talented guys on the team as of right now, but he’s got to get there and work his butt off,” Hurd added.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2015/may/18/high-scoring-memphis-guard-lagerald-vick-picks-kan/ ↗
@BShark I'm really not understanding the purpose of this thread. Is there some point you are trying to make by starting a specific thread to mock another poster? One whose threads create significant discussion and dialogue, much of which is outside of the box that we'd be in if he chose not to involve himself with such efforts. I'm not asking that you take it down, just reconsider when the thought strikes in the future.
Garrett?
@Kcmatt7 Your last two paragraphs are why I'm such a big advocate of the flex bone.
What needs to be considered is the type of run blocking. Remember, with pulling, trapping, angles, you don't have to move a defender. The type of run blocking I'm talking about is more about gaining stalemates, and creating seals. If you can avoid losing ground, e.g., getting blown up, pushed into a running lane, you win. Much of run blocking is getting in the way. Great example is getting to the second level on a linebacker. If you find a side, seal, then the RB does the rest. Further, there is many times very little a lineman can do if a DL is intent on going to certain spot inside, such as slanting, for example. You use the DL's momentum to let him block himself.
I would also say that on any given play, you don't need 6 or 7 guys executing even fairly well. The point of attack and next level get you four yards. The backside is largely irrelevant when the ball gets to the line quickly (like the flexbone). Much of the time a backside tackle is releasing downfield to find a DB.
You are very right .. winning the track meet that has become the Big 12 is a losing proposition. Why fight it?
I think Vick aids the three point shooting issue. And it gives us another potential superstar. His addition is of greater impact than most are assuming.
We have one of the two best rosters in CBB. And I’d take ours.
So much brain power spent on the NBA .. a mind is a terrible thing to waste. And "terrible" is in a Charles Barkley voice.
@Texas-Hawk-10 What planet are you on? Thanks for the useless lecture though. No, I don't think Vick will ever play point guard. I never said that, of course. But that's ok.
Of course, for those following along, which might be this entire board minus one, I simply quoted Bill Self, which included the part where he said Vick is not a point guard. And the point of the quote is that Bill Self, his words, mentioned that Vick could "can play point guard." This was related to posts above that said Vick had never been mentioned in that area. And it seemed worthy given the discussion.
@Texas-Hawk-10 Yes, I have an understanding of what pass blocking is trying to accomplish. Thank you for the primer though.
I'm not suggesting the spread offense is complex. I don't see where I said that. The issue is having a QB that can execute, which is my criticism of the spread at KU, which is the overarching point here. We can't run it effectively.
What I said was that pass blocking is more difficult for a certain type of player. That is what I said. And it is much easier to teach lower skilled linemen to run block. You can run block with undersized linemen (presumably those less desirable in recruiting) by the use of angles, pulling, trapping, etc. Further, by use of those techniques, you aren't trying to move anyone backwards. In fact, with traps, you let DLs loose and block from the side in most cases. You ignore that.
@BShark I was much more interested in the discussions about Vick heading into last season. He was my pick to be our best player last season. I think this could be a huge game changer having him back.
I was just pointing out the "mention."
You all realize the title to this thread grabs the attention, and the post posed other questions, right? "Or is Nike defending that high ground by moving its big gun into place by the Hollywood sign?"
The question is whether Nike influenced the move to LA ... whether taking that big market with Lebron relates to Puma's insertion into the market.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree on the triple option. Not a real option for Kansas (no pun intended).
I asked the question largely because it shows a bit of a flaw in your thinking here. You need skilled linemen, who are athletes, to adequately cover the space necessary.
So you know, blocking in the flexbone -- which I advocate -- is easier to teach with lower skilled players than pass blocking is for lower skilled players. When you talk about "complex", there are certain physical things that linemen get exposed at when pass blocking. On the other hand, the risk of being exposed is reduced in a scheme such as the flexbone. Learning flexbone blocking takes some brains, and importantly, lower tier linemen can be successful because the blocking schemes utilize angles to very high degree, as well as quick trapping (again, angles).
Don't get me wrong. I like larger splits in some circumstances. And your citation to Mike Leach is a very good one. I think it would be a disaster for Kansas. Tighter splits permit more help and scheming on the line. The wider the splits, the more blockers are on their own.
Also, many, many high schools run the flexbone. It seems like the easy solution to forward progress.
One thing the spread requires, that we can't seem to acquire, is a skilled QB. That's the deal killer. That has proven to be the elusive piece we can't seem to land. So without that, the spread is moot.
@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 - October 1, 2017 "Of Vick, KU coach Bill Self said: 'He can do a lot of things. His stroke has gotten a lot better. Legerald can play point guard I think because he's so fast and he's a good ball handler. He's not a point guard but he can certainly take pressure off guys when Devonte is not in the game.' "
So Self did mention him at point guard. A mention.
Very interesting to hear Self before last season .. "“There’s a lot of things to like about this game,” added Self, who said Vick has been KU’s best player “from maybe the beginning of the summer (to now).”
@Texas-Hawk-10 So, your increased splits .. you relate that to pass blocking, correct? To stretch the edge by that margin?
@JayHawkFanToo How much did KU get paid for placing the games on Metro Sports?
KU should put its games on PPV. I'm happy to pay for the TV I want. Quasi-donation to KU athletics. Make bars, restaurants pay a premium. I'd pay $20 to watch an exhibition vs. Emporia St.
I know that's a wildly unpopular opinion.
@jayballer73 I used to really look forward to FB season .. now I dread it. It's beyond bad. Someone deliver us from our unique version of purgatory ...
@jayballer73 Me too! You know what I'm most excited about???? The UNIFORMS!! How many combos can we have? Red helmet, blue jersey, blue pants?? No, no wait .. White helmet, red jersey, white pants??? But that's not the best. Blue helmet, white jersey, white pants! A big WOW is all I can say!!! It is so unbelievably incredible!! Every weekend, something new! Metallic? I'm in!!!!!
Sorry, just shoot me now.
@mayjay Not at all, still clear as I can get them. As I've always said, wouldn't trade him for any other coach in the country. Ah, but when the bullets start flyin' around here, reminders of comments past are fleeting.
@Woodrow I actually see it as more the opposite. A guy who was ushered to the door. Who now has come back on the coach’s terms. Who sees that he needs to perform on the court and in the locker room to get what he wants. It’s as moment that forges maturity — or as @Texas-Hawk-10 said, he’s gone. I think this is a “trust Self” moment.