@Crimsonorblue22 A common word that gets tossed around, of course, as @JayHawkFanToo is implying, is “kickback.” Could someone, somewhere, in the KU chain of command received some benefit for an otherwise unsavory relationship?
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
JayHawkFanToo said:
Available literature appears to indicate that psychopaths and sociopaths have an easier time passing a polygraph than average.
Have you thus been able to pass a polygraph? 🤔 But you’re right on your main point. However, companies use them regularly as does the government in areas where secrecy is necessary. Not perfect though.
@Kcmatt7 I have understood he would have been at least a second round pick but for this issue.
@joeloveshawks Couldn’t have said it better. I’m all in on this. Some of us thought he was an all conference type player in the making. Maybe we see that. A guy with a second chance is thankful and has gained perspective.
Credit to his mom, too, for how she handled all of this.
@mayjay Great info. I didn’t know he’d taken one. But perhaps asking him the direct question might lead to the solution. I do think one way to forgiveness, if he did it, is admission. But if he didn’t do it, the polygraph could give Moore his path to signing him.
@mayjay ... and most particularly, a fraud. Where's a creative prosecutor when you need one? Kansas, contracted with Adidas, understanding that such a contract would lead to the signing of high level athletes. Adidas, knowing this was significant consideration for the agreement, failed to give reasonable effort to ensure that high level prospects signed with KU, thus defrauding KU of its anticipated benefit. Or something like that.
I gave this some thought. Interested in opinions on this. Here's how I might approach it.
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Meet with Heimlich. Ask him directly whether any abuse occurred. If he says yes, go to #5.
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If he says says "no", then require him to take a polygraph.
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If he passes the polygraph, go to to #6.
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If he fails the polygraph, end of discussions. Don't sign him.
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From #1, if he says "yes", abuse occurred, then I would a) Require Heimlich to make a public acknowledgment of responsibility, b ) he would agree to donate 20% of his major league salary up to $1 million to a trust fund for the victim over his career, c) The Royals would start a trust fund the girl of $100,000 as a down payment, to pay for her college, to be paid back by Heimlich as part of the deal, d) He would then take 4 months and focus on himself personally, counseling, therapy, etc. e) After that, he would find a charity, etc., to work for, for another 4 months, related to sex abuse. Something to put him in the position of facing the victims. f) Then he plays baseball.
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From #3, he passes the polygraph. Make it public that he passed the polygraph. Then donate $100,000 to a trust for the girl to pay for the college. State that this reduced his signing bonus. Acknowledge that polygraphs are not perfect, and the $100,000 is meant to help everyone heal, take pressure off her family, and hopefully everyone can move on.
Of course, I don't know if a polygraph is prohibited under the collective bargaining agreement. If so, perhaps Heimlich's reps could "offer" it.
Anyway, nothing is perfect. But this might be a reasonable way to address the issue.
@Kcmatt7 Oh, you're right. No way we're sniffing top 10 or NC. Since 2010, GT won 8, 7, 7, 11, 3, 9, and 5 games. These are dire circumstances.
One thing about the option out of the spread, the defenses prep for that regularly. Meaning, the read option, or the run-pass option, is in most playbooks. Now, excellent defense, top defenses, would stuff the flexbone -- you ain't beatin' Bama. But you ain't beatin' Iowa St. as it is. And play action is incredibly dangerous.
All this weighed against where we are now.
Geez, whatever gets us some wins.
The fix for football is really easy .. fire Beatty, hire a coach that runs the flexbone like Georgia Tech. We don't need the stud, accurate QB. Time consuming offense. Keeps a bad defense on the sidelines more. Tough to prep for on short time as no one in the conference runs it. While certain players won't want to come here, it will create a situation where guys that can run the ball are at a premium, and athletes are fits for the system. Point of attack blocking takes less time, and thus skill level of O-linemen needed is a touch lower. Most passing is quicker release, and play action. Pass blocking, a difficult skill, is less needed. Navy runs the same thing. And before some say no, just see how GT and Navy have done. They have good players. Better than ours. And before some say no, look how we've done trying to be like everyone else.
I guarantee at least 4 wins in the second season under that system.
@Crimsonorblue22 I don't know .. but he sure has a history of being in messes.
http://www2.ljworld.com/weblogs/town_talk/2015/dec/17/a-list-of-past-thomas-fritzel-controvers/ ↗
I just thank the refs in the Duke game for fouling up Carter ... that was quite the screw job.
Wow .. makes one wonder what incentive there was to sign a dumb contract? Though I have to say I've never really heard a bad word about Zenger personally.
@DoubleDD I think it is worth considering that taking a roster that changes every season, and then to win at the rate Cal has won at, is pretty impressive. He knows how to deal with and adjust to all types of players and skill sets. I wonder why we don't win all of our games even though we have more talent that everyone we play, save UK or Duke? It's just not that easy. That said, I get your point .. at some point, talent overwhelms. But winning involves more than talent. It's why CBB is such a great game. Nearly anyone in the tourney can knock off teams at the top.
@JayHawkFanToo Remember, the abuse "allegedly" occurred over two years. With a 4-6 year old kid as the one supposedly recalling the events. Man, it's just hard to really rely on any of that.
@mayjay You are dead on regarding the length of sentence in this deal apparently not being a motivator. Good point.
He admitted he was guilty. We just have to assume that. I'd still sign him. Let's say as 15 year old he robbed a store and killed someone. I'd say the same thing if since his release from the "system" he was a solid citizen. Folks can turn their lives around after paying their debt to society. That doesn't mean we have to like them, or even want to be in the same room with them.
I think Self would do worse with Cal's teams. I think Self is better, more comfortable, and more effective with more experienced players. He seems to have less tolerance for mistakes. And he's much more of a system guy. Cal plays the inexperience.
One thing to consider here is a "victim" is only a "victim" if the crime actually occurred. Here, of course, there is the possibility the child was manipulated by an adult. That's also a "victim." Concern for this little girl should be present regardless, because a child at that age is not malicious.
Something to consider. You are charged with molesting a child. You didn't do it. However, the prosecutor offers a deal. You plead guilty, do 30 days in jail, and you do counseling/therapy for 2 years, and you're done. Or, you go to trial and risk, say, 15 years in prison. Again, you didn't do it. Sometimes innocent people get proposed excellent plea deals. It's another way a prosecutor acknowledges the strength of his/her case, or lack thereof.
Remember, prosecutors generally always want a conviction after filing a case, even if their case is bad.
Wait, what do you mean a Jayhawk is not a real bird?
The list of four year players we loved to complain about 1. Brady 2. Traylor 3. Taylor 4. Lucas 5. EJ - Off the bench, Reed, D. Jackson, Kaun, Hawkins.
@Kcmatt7 That is perhaps the weakest argument I've heard. Like, epically weak. So, a GM takes what he has, a franchise that has been historically bad, and turns it into a world series winner, and you demean that -- because he traded a guy on the roster when he arrived? You might need to recalibrate your compass on this topic.
@Kcmatt7 Man, it's amazing that the Royals actually made the World Series twice with the level of incompetence you describe. Are so intent on here on being critical that you ignore that Dayton Moore gave this city two world series appearances and a world series title, after 30 years of virtually nothing? He knows the path. He's proven it.
@Kcmatt7 What do you think folks do that commit crimes like this when they are minors? Do you think they are prohibited from working? They have an abuse registry in Kansas that potential employers can access -- can't work around kids. Interestingly, in baseball, he would be working around adults. My point is just that it should not be "hard to believe" that he would be able to work.
Now, I'm not trying to provoke anyone ... really.
https://www.aclu-nj.org/theissues/criminaljustice/whysexoffenderlawsdomoreha/ ↗
Well, if we ask the left, the MLB teams shouldn't even be able to ask - https://www.nelp.org/wp-content/uploads/Ban-the-Box-Fair-Chance-State-and-Local-Guide.pdf ↗
@jaybate-1-0 I understand your argument on OAD 1/5s. In fact, I've always felt it was an excellent point.
But the over-reaching praise you heap on Self based on the premise of some talent dearth is significantly misplaced, in my opinion. You act as if we're struggling to fill our roster with worthy, talented players.
In at least half of Self's seasons here, I'd take our roster over any other roster in the country. And again, we're always top 5. You referred to him patching together a roster. And you refer to recruiting asymmetry. The only schools that have an edge on Kansas, when comes to the OADs, are Duke and UK. And that's only on the presumed OADs, which we know requires a special hand from a coaching perspective.
When Duke and UK are winning national titles each season, then there is an argument. They aren't. It's because OADs don't win championships. And again, they are the only ones that have a recruiting edge.
When you bring up Nova, it further compromises your argument. When one reviews their rosters over the last three years, we see why.
Is there a point guard that has played for UK, Duke, or UNC during this stretch that you'd rather have than Mason his junior/senior season or Graham his senior season? John Wall? I'm sure there might be a few.
I flat don't like the dismissal of Roy Williams, who has won 3 national titles, and who has won multiple league titles in a tougher ACC. Roy went to four final fours at Kansas while cutting his teeth as a head coach. Self has already been a head coach at a major school. You're putting Self on some lofty perch where no other coaches fly. I'm saying that a certain group of coaches are in the same ballpark of greatness.
The reality is that Kansas has a roster chalk full of top 5 talent each season. Just look at the player rankings. The challenge .. start in our national championship year in 2008 and find five CBB rosters in any particular year that have more talent. I'll save you the time. You won't find five. I already did the leg work. Look at Self's comments. He's an amazing coach. But he is the first guy to recognize our talent gap in the Big 12. Part of being a great coach is getting that talent. Just being blue blood isn't the guaranteed path .. ask Indiana or UCLA. Bill Self is not a better (or worse) coach than Roy Williams, or K, or Calipari, or Izzo. So he's not doing anything outside the box or on a different level. The only schools you see doing better than KU in the draft, really, are Duke and UK. That's it. UNC and MSU do very good, but I'm not seeing that they have draft dominance.
@Gorilla72 Do you think enforcing the rules would have better, more important impact? Punish every team that was involved, punish every team that played an ineligible player? I do.
That may mean KU being punished, and if it gets this going in the right direction, that is away from the pro model, then I'm all for it.
Preston signs with the Cavs.
It's the end of June, and there are five big questions looming over the 2018-19 Kansas Jayhawks. We're projected to be a top five team, some have us as the number one team in the nation. Here's my top five questions -
1. Dedric Superstar?: Much of the preseason hype is premised on Dedric Lawson and his presumed superstar status. He was impressive in his two seasons at Memphis and has the ability to stretch the floor, though his three point percentage in his sophomore year dipped to 27% after shooting 35% his freshman season. He looks like our best player, he seems to be the guy we'll rely on, and he seems to be a potential all-American. A lot is riding on Lawson and his assumed stardom. Will he really be "the man"?
2. Moore Up Or Moore Down?: Is he a point guard, or is he just the dreaded short "combo" guard? Much of the opinion flowed against Moore, and against the possibility of Moore starting this season (other than perhaps early). But of late, there seems strong momentum that Moore is a much more complete player than we have thought and the Moore is fully capable of being one of our three starting guards, and excelling with the ball in his hands. Can Moore run the show?
3. DeSousa Eligible?: A disgusting topic. As other posters have observed, can we stomach another season of NCAA delays, a player sitting out, missed games, and the story line dominance that we recently suffered with Billy Preston? Self sounded a quite optimistic tune recently, saying everything from their end indicated DeSousa would be playing. But I'm not so sure. Apologies for the FBI rehash, but my pessimism stems from the core premise of the Federal indictment -- that the defendants in that case defrauded the universities by the payments, which made the players ineligible under the NCAAA rules, thus depriving the schools of their anticipated benefit. If DeSousa plays, well, where's the fraud? Bruce Bowen and De'anthony Melton are examples of where this could go. DeSousa is a force, and having this guy getting 25-30 is a game changer. One reasonable school of thought is that Dedric and DeSousa, together, might be our best post combo. The guy improved immensely in short period of time with the consistent game action Self provided (note the backhanded reference to past players who were denied such an opportunity to develop, but I digress). But you can’t play if you aren't eligible, or if the NCAA indicates there are questions and then delays. I think this is why the NCAA moved to Indy many years ago, so we could protest and heckle. Will DeSousa be in uniform this season?
4. Backcourt Youth Ready?: We've had the luxury of upper classmen filling out the ranks of our backcourt. Now, that all changes. Devon Dotson and Quentin Grimes are presumed starters, Charlie Moore has one college season under his belt, as a redshirt sophomore, and most project Marcus Garrett, a sophomore, to be a big minutes guy as well (and possibly start). This is a huge reliance on youth. We've been focused on Grimes of late and his apparent path to stardom. We know it won't be that easy. If Self and Vick are able to reach pact on his return, surely laden with Self's strict requirements, that might change the dynamic. But odds are sharply against that. As is, we have huge unknowns with the ball in their collective hands. If this piece fails, we know the result. Can the youth step up in the backcourt?
5. Can We Drain The Three?: Lots of type space dedicated to the importance of the three pointer over these many years at this site, and what a change we have seen. Self has embraced the three, and went all in last season on the three ball. Even more, his team was eliminated by the ultimate three ball squad, which won the NC. Now we come off that three point high and see a team with question marks at every spot when it comes to the long ball. I asked the question a few weeks ago when it was suggested that we could shoot 37% from three as a team (after shooting 40% last season) -- name one player on KU's roster that you assume will shoot 37% by himself? By a plurality, it seemed, Mitch Lightfoot won the vote. I'm sorry, that ain't gonna cut it. But there are leaps that can be made. I compared Grimes a bit to Victor Oladipo in style of play, and then looked at O's stats. He shot 30% from three his freshman season, the just 20% his sophomore season, before leaping to just over 40% his breakout junior season. Regardless of the assumed return to a more conventional, feed the post offense, we will need effective three point shooting to win the national title, with reasonable volume. We can't assume an alternative path. Are there any guys here who can breakout from three?
Those are my top five questions for the season, as we we sit here in June. Others might include whether Vick will return, whether McCormack can be denied minutes, whether Self goes back to the high/low (or if high three rates are here to stay), whether Doke's weakness at the line will be exploited further by the opposition, whether Garrett can shoot without cracking backboards, and whether Mitch Lightfoot might redshirt (or if he forces a major role once again, by performance or circumstance).
IMG seems to be most tied to Under Armor, right? That's ok, if we really want him, we can pay back anything UA gives JRE anyway.
@BShark I would hope for better too .. Grimes is farther along. But game-wise, when I was recalling Oladipo his final college year, they seem to have a similar game.
I just happened to look at Oladipo's stats after your post .. holy cr*p, Oladipo shot 30% from three his freshman year, 20% from three his sophomore year, and then over 40% his junior season. Marcus Garrett, where are you?
I would agree .. I don't think I've ever heard Self be this complimentary, so early. Victor Oladipo as a similar player?
Heard and have read the term "clogged paint" way too much now .. it seems to be the phrase of the day in trying to explain how bigs will supposedly perform better in the NBA.
I would have loved to see Porter go to Philly.
All Knucklehead Team for KU Under Self: G Tharpe G Vick G Greene F Bragg F Preston. Off the bench, second teamers based on level of issues, G Taylor G Adams, G Morningstar, F Ma. Morris, F Jackson.
@JayHawkFanToo Total aside, but Glass bought the Royals for $96 million. The franchise is now worth over $1 billion. I've always argued that Glass has so increased his investment that quibbling over $25 million in a calendar year has no merit from Glass' end. The idea that he should break even in any year misses the point in my opinion -- which I've heard Dayton Moore say a few times.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/193637/franchise-value-of-major-league-baseball-teams-in-2010/ ↗
@JayHawkFanToo Worst case is that he upsets matters in the locker room, becomes a distraction, has an incident -- all in the bubble of reasonable possibilities even if Self/Vick reach some agreement. That might be @BShark point in part. That said, I think if an agreement is reached, it is a lesser possibility. It's literally Vick begging to come back.
To your point, though, on the court we might see a guy who sees that he has a second chance and becomes a star. Some were thinking that heading into last season ... the "star" part. He does have that talent. So I would agree that there is considerable upside here on the court. And we need three point shooting.
If Self declines, we thus know there is a very good reason.
Wasn't everyone freaked out on how great Ricky Rubio was, as well?
@jayballer73 @Gunman I think this is really the ultimate “trust Self” moment. This seems very similar to the Tharpe situation. Self has a clear understanding of the “why” here — why isn’t Vick being invited back with open arms despite high talent, a likelihood of better production and an open scholarship? He’s better than Tharpe by a good ways. Wouldn’t the bet on a senior be better than the bet on a freshman? Especially for Self?
Of course. But that’s only part of the story. There is more at play here.
Thus the hesitancy by some in the peanut gallery. We see Self’s reaction and handling of this situation and it causes us great pause.
Without hearing Self’s words the other day, and back in early April, I would view this differently. Self’s words have influenced my opinion.
I think Self should go with his gut here. Whatever that is.
@Gunman “Lagerald had a really good year for us,” Self said in a release. “He started out so hot and finished strong. I believe the time is right for him to move on, explore his options as a professional and see what develops. We won a lot of games with Lagerald over the last three years and appreciate everything he’s done for Kansas and our basketball program. We are 100 percent supportive of his decision and wish him the very best in whatever path this takes him.”
@drgnslayr - I think you nailed it. Players have to buy in. Players have to do it his way, the right way. This could easily be a setting of clear, concise ground rules if Self is to permit the return. And make not mistake, Bill is making the decision here -- at least that's what I see. I heard the audio, and Self's tone further emphasizes that to me. I'd be interested in what others thought of how he sounded. To me he sounded as if it was a remote possibility.
Here's Self's full quote.
"I have visited with Lagerald very briefly, and his mother. At some point in time we'll talk, but I told him I was going to get back from here before we'd have a chance to get together," Self said. "So at some point in time, hopefully in the near future, we'll visit. But nothing as of now has changed in my mind. We like Lagerald, and certainly the thought was, when he declared, is that his time at KU would be done either way," Self said. "That's something that I'll visit with him and his mother about, but at this point in time, it hasn't been decided, nor has he told us positively or whatever. I just think he wants to be able to sit down with us and go over future options and if there are possibly any here. So we'll see what happens with that, but no hurry."
Self was asked to clarify whether or not the door to a potential Vick return at KU was "completely shut."
"I don't know about the term 'completely shut.' I guess not. We're going to talk, so I guess it's not completely shut, but we'll see how that goes," Self said. "We recruited with the idea of him not being here. We signed a young man late with the idea of him not being here. So there's some things that we'd have to certainly talk about because that was obviously something that he felt comfortable with early on and he may still feel the same way. But I think we owe it to each other to at least sit down and visit. We've been through too much together, three years, and have had quite a bit of success. I think we definitely need to do that."
@dylans Worse than that, they were 16.7% from three. And important to that point, though, Nova was very highly ranked in the 3 point defense -- their differential of almost 9% between made and allowed has to be close to the leader. Further, Nova shot 1158 threes to their opponents' 858. KU's comparison was 974-947. So volume difference exacerbates the % advantage further. Overall, Nova was 13th in three point defense. By comparison, Kansas was 92nd in three point defense. Also, TT shot 25% from three the game vs Nova. Couple Nova's impressive three point defense, with the other important stat -- being first in three point baskets made, that's a nice recipe.
I don't know. Based on all of the info, my bet is Self doesn't want Vick anywhere near this group. I will be very surprised -- shocked -- if Self has Vick back. His prior comments were perhaps the most definitive I've heard regarding any player. The comments by Self strike me more as simply public courtesy toward Vick's mother, who has said all the right things in the media to this point.
Let's not confuse topics here, and let's not confuse issues.
The schools -- like KU -- work very hard on behalf of their players. To get them eligible, to argue with the NCAA, to present information, and to keep them eligible. So the dissertations aren't applicable here. Did Preston suffer because KU didn't help? Alexander? Diallo? Of course not. Schools provide massive resources to get and keep kids eligible.
Someone is trying very hard again to inject the social justice (political) arguments back into the discussion.
Good grief .. just more of the same social injustice absurdity.
@jayballer73 Don't forget, we aren't in a court of law. Neither Silvio nor his guardian are charged with anything, anyway. Colleges suspend players for allegations all the time. It's many times ridiculous. But sometimes not.
But this is whether an NCAA rule was violated, and most importantly, whether that violation could impact KU.
It's exactly why we didn't play Billy Preston.
@jaybate-1-0 I found an article that referenced this topic -
"Fraschilla said the search firms can be useful when it comes to conducting background checks on coaches because athletic directors and school administrators are not well-versed in detective work. However, the dark side of college athletics can surface in these dealings between school administrators and some search firms, he said. A buddy system can develop where firms place school administrators with the expectation that the administrator will use the firm for its next coaching search. “There is a sense that some athletic directors will use them because there is a quid pro quo,” Fraschilla said. “That’s definitely part of the equation. You help me, I’ll pay your firm a fee to help me get a coach and then you keep an eye out for me for my next athletic director job.”
I am very pessimistic on Silvio eligibility. Please, someone tell me why my logic is flawed.
- The FBI indictment is premised on defrauding universities.
- The "fraud" is that the Adidas rep knew that paying the players would make the players ineligible, thus defrauding the university of it's assumed benefit.
- If Silvio, whose representative was paid, is eligible, despite the payment, it would seem that there is no basis for the fraud.
Of course, they’ll hire a search firm. It’s a racket. Deans, ADs hire firms and get some quid pro quo (as a result of paying exorbitant fees) when they are inevitably looking for employment later. By paying the fees to the search firms, the firms will return the favor by pushing their candidacy with other universities when they need a job or are looking to move up the ladder.
@jaybate-1.0 Even more precisely, simply every possession in the last 10 minutes? If you’re a lesser team and want to force the action, who could argue with that strategy?
Something tells me DeSousa and Dedric together might be an incredible combo. Doke is the pure center advantage that others don’t have. But I’m not worried about him being minimized in certain situations. But you’re right, if DeSousa isn’t eligible, that’s another issue.
@BShark Oh, absolutely, there is no way this could ever occur. Obviously not enough fouls to go around. But as an opposing coach, I’d have to consider the strategic fouling of Doke throughout the game. It could be hidden by just mugging the guy down low when he gets the ball when we are in the bonus. Just major physicality where no foul might be good too. Or restricting movement significantly w/o the ball. Would have you spread it around.
@jaybate-1-0 So, when we look at whether fouling Doke repeatedly is worth it, we need to look at KU's average points per possession. In 2017, our points per possessions was 1.132. So, would Doke create more points per possession by shooting two free throws (ignoring that some might be one and ones)?
Dividing 1.132 by 2, because Doke can only get a max of two points in the possession, that would mean Doke would need to shoot 56.6% to equal 1.132 per possession.
Doke shot a putrid 41.3%. That would lead to a dead ugly .826 points per possession.
Of course, fouling Doke would likely increase the possessions per game, because presumably the opposition could not wait deep into the possession for fear that Marcus Garrett would drill a three (sorry, a little humor there). But you get the point.
That's where it gets interesting.
We had 71.9 possessions per game. At .826 per possession, we'd average only 59.38 points if Doke was fouled each possession.
But let's say our possessions increased by 14 .. that would put us even with the NCAA leader in possessions at appx. 86.
14 x .826 would give us 11.5 points per game extra. And where would adding that to the 59.38 points if Doke was fouled each possession, where would that leave us?
We would score 70.88 points per game, which is incredibly within about a point of what we did last season 71.9.
The question, among many, is whether we'd increase that 14 possessions per game (or if it would increase more).
But that isn't the entire story.
Of course, this can't be discussed in a vacuum. And that's where I think the strategy of fouling Doke every possession becomes a clear winner for the opposition -- when our possessions go up, so does the opposition's. We'd have to calculate the opposition's increase in points and that seems to make this a loser. Our opposition is going to score better than .826 points per possession which is all that would be need to just keep the comparison a push. But only two out of 351 NCAA D-1 teams was below .826 points per possession. So we lose ground by increasing possessions.
Anyway, interesting item.
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/offensive-efficiency ↗
https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/possessions-per-game ↗
The best thing that could ever happen to basketball is if another company, say an up and comer like Sketchers, bought the Converse brand from the evil empire (Nike). Bring back the old logo, etc.
Really, is there anything sweeter?
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