@jaybate-1-0 Interesting topic .. when it gets unlocked, I have some numbers to consider.
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
@jaybate-1-0 Puma is an offshoot of Adidas, back from the 80s. Interestingly, two brothers owned Adidas and then split, with one forming Puma.
Here's a link on a significant change in ownership structure at Puma.
@jaybate-1-0 Your thread on fouling Doke got locked .. do you know why?
@DoubleDD The actual most important question - What’s more unfair, having a father in your life, or having an absentee father?
@DanR You and I could make a deal. Excellent rationale. One consideration is that players can easily inspire their own termination with poor effort, odd injuries, etc. I could live with that risk, if we were negotiating a deal.
That all aside, my rigidity on the NCAA rules is because I know .. you know .. we all know .. it never ends. Ever chink in the armor, every compromise, every deal, every concessions, demands more from the "destroy CBB" crowd. They won't stop. The best negotiating posture for the NCAA is to refuse to compromise and tell them to stick it.
Respectfully, this more of the same. There are two parts to "student athlete" .. and one is athlete. It's easy to just focus on "student" when convenient. The only reason most all of the CBB players have scholarship is the athlete part. Definitely not the student part. Thus, the scholarship being based on the athlete part, if you don't perform, a coach doesn't like you, you aren't a fit, then the "athlete" part is invoked and you are gone. But again, the kids know this coming in. So none of this is a surprise.
And this has nothing to do with whether they are in fact student athletes. They have the privilege of the free education and having an opportunity to earn any degree they are capable of achieving. It's up to them.
@DanR No, actually it is easy to argue about a kid who is told to move on. When Vick came to Kansas, what was the deal? Did he sign a four year guaranteed deal, or did he sign a deal that either party could terminate at will, with the only real condition if terminated that the player had to sit a year? It business, that's a non-compete.
Why is it that if Vick just decided to walk away, no one worries about the position that Vick puts Kansas in? He can leave at any time, and go anywhere he wants. Heck, he can leave midseason and leave the team hanging. Self can't cut his scholarship midseason. The only thing he can't do, in the entire world, is play D-1 basketball for a season.
@DoubleDD I don't think anyone begrudges the athlete for wanting to make money. They can make money. If they are marketable, there is a big world out there. Go get em.
But no, they want to come into someone else's business, change the rules, use that business' property and assets. They don't want to create their own.
This is about entering into a contract by one's own free will. Agreeing to play under a set of rules, and then whining, complaining, calling names, making outrageous claims, all because a player (or family) might be different than 99.5% of the other intercollegiate athletes.
This is about the OWNERS of a business being able to establish the rules that govern their property.
DON'T SIGN THE DEAL. DON'T PLAY. DON'T ACCEPT THE OFFER OF A SCHOLARSHIP.
But as we see in the rest of our society .. uh, one side kind of to the left, as we know .. that can't succeed so they want to take.
All while 99.5% of athletes are having the time of their lives, and enjoying incredible perks, all because they play a game.
It's not fair. Nothing is every fair. But it's not fair that I have to work and Lebron James is born with physical gifts that allow him to earn millions upon millions playing a game. How do we rectify that?
@Texas-Hawk-10 You said, "D2 schools don’t offer full athletic scholarships to begin with, and D3 schools don’t offer them at all. Athletes who go to D2 and D3 schools aren’t going to those schools for athletics in the first place, they’re at those schools for academics because they have no professional athletic hopes except in very rare cases. What usually happens at those levels is a kid realizes that athletics takes up too much time and they start suffering in the classroom so they quit their sport to focus solely on academics. Kids who go to those schools are usually doing so because they are within about 4 hours from their homes and it’s a chance to keep playing a sport they love while getting a college education."
The second sentence is absolutely incorrect. In fact, a large group of kids (and a large majority) that play D2, D3, and I'll add in NAIA, do so because of sports. They pick those schools because of the opportunity to play. I have three kids, two kids that took scholarships, multiple kids that I have coached being involved with all three of my kids, and also then knowing kids that are friends, teammates, etc. -- this just flat untrue. It's not saying that academics isn't a large consideration. It is, of course. But the sport component and the scholarship leads these kids to the school. And without the athletic component, and the partial scholarships (D2 and NAIA) a number of smaller schools are not affordable. For example, a kid may get a scholarship from Northwest Missouri, but he'd go to KU and skip sports if he didn't get that offer; insert smaller schools around KC, like Benedictine or Baker (NAIA), or UCM, Emporia St., Washburn, Pittsburg St. (D2). A large chunk of those athletes would have never gone to those schools but for the athletic opportunity. This holds true for JUCO athletics, as well.
The third sentence is just untrue as well, because of your use of the word "usually." It would be better to say "sometimes."
Your fourth sentence is exactly on point (It conflicts with your first sentence, but is, again, absolutely correct). I know kids that go distances, too, just to play ball, but in the small school setting, it's the exception.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I know your opinion is yours, but I think that actually having a defensive plan that guarded the three point line could have changed the dynamic. Few in the hot stretch were "guarded." Further, a long, athletic freak like Bamba surely would have been a impediment to open threes. Of course, without an effective game plan to guard the three point line, it's moot.
We all understand that there are no transfer restrictions. None. Players can transfer just like all other students.
Oh, as an aside, they chose to play basketball and get a free education, thus there are some rules that apply solely to basketball because of that choice — rules that help protect the party to the agreement that is providing the free education.
It’s so unfair.
@Texas-Hawk-10 So you're saying Bamba couldn't guard out on the floor?
@approxinfinity I personally have the same opinion I had back when Perry was here .. I thought he was very slow laterally. Did not have quick feet. He was not an explosive athlete -- all relatively speaking. You are right, though, we had significant depth issues (related to quality) in the post during his tenure. That said, have you ever seen a "3" in high level college basketball that looked and moved like Perry Ellis? I struggle to find a comp.
I'll go way out on limb here, but I don't think Dedric is playing the three. Like I'd bet quite a bit of money on that. Sure, he might get two minutes at the three like Ellis did once. But this is simply not a real option for Self in my mind. We discussed this about Ellis and it just never happened.
One important point that Self has mentioned a number of times is his desire for ball handling. He went through the rough patch with Selden, who was atrocious with the ball. He's now experienced an offense where all four guys we've played on the floor .. from Mason to Vick to Svi to JJ .. were all better ball handlers than our alleged two guard in Selden.
Self simply going back to conventional is the necessary move. But three bigs is pretty unprecedented for Self. Self said, "I think our style will be different, without question, because I think we'll play two bigs." -- he didn't say three and has never hinted at it.
Remember, too, Self does value speed, as in getting the ball up and down the court. Playing two bigs, and playing conventional, doesn't mean you have to play slow and plodding. Athletic bigs like Dedric and DeSousa, permit us to play real fast, and we were able to play pretty fast with Doke on the court, too.
Defensively, I think it could certainly work, though, if we played a conventional 2-3 or 2-1-2 zone (stating the obvious). Three big guys always works with those zones. But we know how Self loves the zone D, so maybe not happening.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I want no part of sub 33% three point shooting. Volume driven or otherwise. Reliance on low percentages of anything increases volatility. I’m guessing Self sees a guy more like that 35% number.
@Woodrow If DeSousa plays, then the NCAA indictment is without merit because the premise of the indictment is fraud — defrauding the university because the player would not be eligible because of the payment. Makes me wonder ...
@Texas-Hawk-10 From the boss man himSelf:
“I think our style will be different, without question,” Self told Tait. “Because I think we'll play two bigs. But I do think one of the bigs, Dedric (Lawson), is a 3-point shooter. I could see him taking as many 3s as Lagerald (Vick, who made 59 of 158 this season).”
I would also observe that he said “one” of our bigs is a three point shooter. Lightfoot?
Did everyone know that Bill Self said he expects Dedric Lawson to take as many 3 pt attempts as Vick did last season? Perhaps an insight into his newly minted 3 pt mind.
@JayHawkFanToo Mid to upper 30s? Starting the weekend early?
@DoubleDD We've been this route before with the NCAA. I'm completely pessimistic until proven otherwise. And they probably won't be able to make a decision until December, right?
@JayHawkFanToo I recall the injury directly .. I was at the game vs. TAM at AFH. Simien had hurt it earlier in the year and had come back to action. His time on the sidelines opened the door for one of my all time favorites, Jeff Graves.
Think about this. Is there any one of the five bigs we have now - Doke, Dedric, DeSousa, McCormack, or Lightfoot - that you would trade now for Lucas or Traylor for the 2018-19 season?
If you would, you're the guy I want to trade with.
To supplement, here's the McCormack commentary -- seems like the perfect fit for Self.
"Tom Keegan broke it down even deeper in his column from the scrimmage, but it’s worth noting here, as well. Freshman center David McCormack is a beast and he’s going to be nearly impossible to keep off the floor. Does that mean he’s going to play 30 minutes a game? Doubtful. But with all of those big men at his disposal, Self may very well have the luxury of asking each of those guys to play as hard as they can for as long as they’re on the floor while rotating them all in for 15-20 minutes a game in order to keep them fresh. If that’s how it plays out, McCormack will make an immediate impact. He’s got tremendous size, great power and good hands and feet. Beyond that, he doesn’t have a timid bone in his body."
@approxinfinity Ok -- who might you think that Lightfoot is better than, or is it just a matchup type thing then (Doke being useless in certain defensive situations)? It would be an amazing thing for this program if he's better than that the 4th big. If he can hit the three, and do it in game situations, even at 35% at higher shot rates, that would be a big plus for this team and would demand playing time as you suggest.
@JayHawkFanToo I see what you're saying. I'm skeptical of the three thing, until I see it. But Mitch being more out on the floor as a four makes him more effective. All good points.
@approxinfinity Sure. I'm sure if that was a realistic possibility, Self would have had him in the game. Self played Mitch 2 minutes in the most important game of the year, even seeing that we were giving up open threes. This seemed like a pretty solid indication of Self's thoughts there.
To be honest, the added "muscle" is not a big deal to me. That doesn't help him guard on the perimeter much. And it doesn't make them better at basketball. A little better footing down-low is the best part. But that added weight can slip off as workouts increase.
What is with this focus on Lightfoot? As if he's magically gotten significantly better in a matter of 2+ months. And we're taking June scrimmage results and extrapolating that to a performance in a Final Four type game. I just don't get it.
Tempering the giddiness is a proven strategy.
@JayHawkFanToo You now are going a bit contrary to your regular position that we can play two fours. With DeSousa back, Mitch is the 4th big, right? There is no position issue that would stop Self from playing Dedric and DeSousa together. Or Doke/DeSousa. Or Doke/Dedric. Correct?
This is not a situation where DeSousa would back up just at the 5, or just at the 4.
Mitch is unquestionably, at best, the 4th big most every night. Until things change.
I just think we all need to reconsider this "Mitch hype" and remember that Bill Self put him on the bench for most of the important tourney games. Doesn't mean he's not good, just that other guys are better.
@Barney Right, so because there are "ifs" it's not worth talking about? I specifically qualified it with the DeSousa issue. And redshirts are removable if injuries strike. But of course, we do not know what he next number of months will bring. Never really do on any topic.
@DoubleDD Addressing your questions -
1.How many kids have redshirted under Coach - I don't know. I do know that Releford, Lucas, and Traylor are relatively recent redshirts that stayed five years.
2.How many stayed for their senior year, or 5 years. See above.
3.How many kids redshirted only to ride the pine the next year? None that I can recall, other than the transfers. In fact, Mitch might be in between Lucas/Traylor and Releford on skill level. He could be a starter for two years, but certainly rotation.
No one is making a demand for a redshirt. Just suggesting it makes sense. I like Mitch and think his final year would be better for KU in year 5, than in year 4.
@JayHawkFanToo He would stay for the same reason others stay ... because they gain no great advantage professionally leaving and they love everything about KU basketball. Five years in the KU program seems a like a better deal than four years.
@DoubleDD The posts by @Texas-Hawk-10 and @dylans hit it on the head, and square with your view. We get Mitch for 5 years and he has a much, much better chance of significant playing time when this team will likely need it more. That all said, we know how this works .. DeSousa gets stuck in the NCAA abyss, and Doke twist a knee, Mitch may be starting.
And to quote Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven, "Deserves got nothin' to do with it."
@approxinfinity Has anything really changed with Mitch? We have Doke, Dedric, and DeSousa. Mitch slots in as number 4 heading into his junior year. That's without discussing McCormack. Unless we lose a highly talented player, his minutes are limited. He was certainly limited by Self in the tourney. And then, unless he redshirts, he has just one season to go. We'll see, I guess. Love his work ethic, and he's the most natural shot blocker I've seen in quite a while. The kind of guy that could force minutes.
Imagine if Lightfoot took a RS and hit this real hard all season? He could be a force/starter the next two seasons. The question is if we need him as our 4th big, assuming DeSousa is back. If DeSousa isn't back, then the RS is out of the question.
Vick could be a dynamic player. If it weren’t for the baggage, there is no doubt Self would want him back. He’s a huge talent that showed signs of potential stardom. Maybe this could be reconciled. His mom is very good with her approach.
@JayHawkFanToo Agreed .. Mitch's PT next season is a topic to watch.
@BShark @jaybate-1-0 We can win without high level three point shooting. Definitely. But one thing for everyone to remember -- Self is different now. He's accepted the three. He has seen the proverbial light. I expect it to be incorporated much more so than it had been our prior post-first teams. The fool's gold talk is dead.
@BShark Can you name one three point shooter that you expect to be above 37% ... that's my quandary. I can't.
@Crimsonorblue22 Seeing the best in folks is a definite and admirable strength.
This team is not the #1 team without DeSousa in my opinion -- not at the outset at least. As noted above, the three pointer is going to be a struggle this season. Not a strength. Thus, if we are more of an in the paint type team, having a stud like DeSousa is a game changer. The three point is a major part of the CBB game. Without it, we'll need more than just two stud post players to make up for our three point deficiency. We'll have to have reliable scoring at every moment on the floor, inside. Even with that, I think we're very vulnerable without reliable three point shooting.
I think we should all be careful not to immediately exonerate DeSousa -- meaning, we don't know if he knew. The young man was an adult at the time. Just saying that we are quick to think it was "just the guardian." I highly doubt that DeSousa was just ignorant of it all. In fact, I think it is really implausible.
@Crimsonorblue22 Hmmm .. well, I'd heard his mentor was Clint Torres, but that made me pause, as well.
So, his mentor is really named, "Harry Coxsome"?
@mayjay Aren't there high concentrations of black folks in the south? Sure sounds racist. Not funny.
Oh, right, there are poor white people in the South, and rednecks. That's what you are referring to. Never mind. Now it's funny.
**Regardless, it is funny. Just felt like editorializing a bit.
Dedric, Doke and Dotson .. the dunking Ds.
Sorry, best I have today.
@BigBad "We saw against Michigan that he struggled in space ..."
I can promise you, none of us saw that. Doke will always struggle in space, won't he? That makes this even more of a question. if something won't change, why not start making money if you don't want to be in college.
**Yes, I know your quoted source meant Nova. It is really a good summary on Doke, that points out his difficulties moving forward in the new, boring NBA.
@dylans The deadline to withdraw from the draft is tomorrow -- so we should know within 24 hrs or so. Hope the big boy is back.
@DoubleDD But also remember what I said ... that using the IRS issues is a way to apply pressure. So while I don't believe that was the impetus of the prosecution, I do think it could come up later as pressure is applied.
@jaybate-1-0 And to your question, it goes to the very heart of why this "stuff" is not a crime. My guess is everyone in the system -- the chancellor, the AD, the NCAA, and so on, knew. Where is your victim then? It's the monolithic university, necessarily devoid of human actors, it appears.
So, I come back to my question ... it really comes down to the definition of "dirty." What is "dirty"?
It is a quite relative inquiry. And, again, it's why the prosecution of these actions is an unmitigated joke.
@DoubleDD If you really think this is about taxes, well, ok then. I have thought about. The theory that this is really about unpaid taxes is (respectfully) nonsensical, in my opinion. No other way to put it.
Your last sentence is telling. And I whole-heartedly agree. But the prosecutor, however, does not. He's the guy that counts. The theory is fraud. Read the charging complaint at the link below.
And after you do, then let me know how many times you see the word "tax" or "taxes."
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/999006/download ↗
@drgnslayr Assumption here .. what if Self learned of an Adidas payment to one of our former players, say Josh Jackson, after the fact. And didn't report it? I think that's a big deal from a rules violation standpoint. Assumption, of course. But that's more the scenario I'm concerned about. Not that he had prior knowledge.
Further, the compilation of "knowledge" could be enough for the prosecutor to claim he's part of a conspiracy. If he was aware of "the game" so to speak, and didn't work to ensure that the University wasn't "defrauded." Ugh.
Interesting article. I saw it at a link posted by @approxinfinity related to coach Self and the big 12 POY discussion. It was the story below it.
@Lulufulu Dirty is a relative term.
So let's try this, as a simple question: Do you think it plausible that the head coach of a blue blood D-1 program would have zero knowledge of payments by shoe companies to players made to influence their college selection?
Not specifics, but the fact that it is occurring.
See, if Self knew of payments, the next question becomes was he ever aware of payments to Kansas players during his tenure.
And if he knew of a prior payment, and didn't "self-report" (no pun intended) -- is he dirty, or not?
@Texas-Hawk-10 I'm with you on the item of the stadium project. I see that as a bit different than football, as in the product on the field. Beatty should have been canned the day the season ended. I like your words of moderation .. using the words "likely." Personally, I strongly believe there were other motivators here.
To that end, if Zenger knew of the hazing, and didn't tell the chancellor, I do think that would be a really big deal for the chancellor. It would if I were chancellor. I think that may be the case because the coach is still the coach. Just bits and pieces of evidence.
I also wonder ... in the unknown-knowns category .. how much knowledge of the Adidas "scheme" did Zenger have?
And to the post above, did he screw the school out of millions of dollars reworking a contract he didn't have to?
But your conclusion is the best evidence now, related to the stadium project. Not being able to raise money kills an AD.
@DoubleDD The recipients of the payments would be subject to tax evasion charges, of course. James Gatto didn't receive the payments. The assistant coaches didn't receive payments. The only folks being charges are those that made the payments, or facilitated the payments. So this has zero to do with taxes -- at the moment. It is alleged as a fraud case.
Tax evasion charges, when they arise, are usually occur as part of a scheme, or process that has taken place over time. Otherwise, it's a internal IRS deal based on an audit or review.
However, I recognize that at some point that might be an issue for a recipient of the payment. It could come about to create leverage for testimony. But right now, it is not.
And unequivocally, without doubt, it is not the reason these charges were filed. You don't file fraud charges against those that make the payments if your goal is to collect 15% and penalties on a $50,000 payment to an athlete that may go unreported (and, of course, 2017 tax returns aren't even really due until October 15).
@DoubleDD This is quite odd timing, you have to admit. If you want to simply believe what is said, then the word might be most appropriately "gullible." But I'm not saying that here. I would say that I may be searching for something that isn't there, and that you may be gullible. It's all a "may." Or, of course, you may have very logical reasons to think its about football ... in May.
I just don't believe folks like this. Spin and narrative control is quite the rage.
It is undeniably odd that Zenger is canned just after we're named in the FBI baloney, and just after the cheerleader/hazing deal. I also find it odd that the chancellor was so adamant that neither played any role. Almost so adamant that he might have the idea that to do otherwise might impact legal proceedings, right? Almost so adamant it sounds as if its part of a deal to assist Zenger in future job searches?
No, No, it's all football -- 6 months after the season ended, so Girod has been stewing on this for how long? Right, it's all football. If it's all football, what has been the intervening event, football wise, that precipitated this decision?
Or, what have been other precipitating events?
Of course, we can accept the disjointed party line as true, as fact. Or, alternatively, we can simply consider that sometime folks aren't truthful for a reason and there are other answers.
And a completely different thought -- who really runs that university? Who is really the boss? We know that answer. His predecessor crushed a prior AD like a dove, as I recall.