@BShark I'm curious as to what you mean by dirty? Like, actively paying players? What are the specifics of the rumors, as I apparently have not been privy to them (other than general whining by some other fan bases).
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
Pay back the money, run a few stairs? I'm good.
@JayHawkFanToo You are treading a tenuous path. I think, really, we all are. As the leader, being complicit, knowing the game, and letting it happen, is really being guilty. If you turn away, if you deny yourself knowledge of the details, if you take the "plausible deniability" path, you are still guilty as the leader.
Replace the "payments from Adidas" aspect of this with "hazing", and it is a little more stark.
Taking it the next step, if a coach knew of the fact that hazing was occurring, did nothing to stop it, and kid got killed, what would happen?
The coach would in all likelihood not be criminally responsible. So when I say "guilty" above regarding the leader, it's not in the criminal sense.
The coach and university would be sued, and they would lose.
If Bill Self were put under oath in a civil case, it would seem that he (and all other coaches) would be in trouble related to "knowledge" or "complicity."
But they would take the 5th, right? With the current investigation, no way they could be let to testify.
Crazy.
What is corrupt? Where is the line?
I come from the perspective that the Adidas payments are Adidas business, and are not a crime. And should not have been charged. If Self knew or didn't know, again, Adidas business. So I fall of the "not corrupt" side pretty heavily.
But we are in the realm of this thing having criminal implications.
Again, a crazy path this is on.
Ah, #fakenews. Sorry. See, it can't get worse than that, right?
I'm hearing John Currie is an old friend of our new Chancellor. Sounds like Currie might be the guy.
The greatest question ever, on all topics, is "why"?
The football failures seem obvious.
But the Adidas issues are more troubling. If he was fired for some role, some complicity, the sacrificial lamb, that could be a concerning "what if."
@DoubleDD You said, "The only reason the FBI is involved in all this?" -- I would suggest this is way off base. The taxes, really, are minuscule on $100,000, in the scheme of things. This is grandstanding. Headlines. A prosecutor sticking his nose in an industry that has so many complicit actors that there are no real victims.
I do think we are a bit naive, all of us, if we think Bill Self is "innocent." Oh, I feel the same way. I'm quite sure he didn't direct an Adidas payment to anyone.
But who is really going to sit here and say that Bill Self, as the head coach of Kansas, is unaware of the game being played outside of the game? Anyone? @JayHawkFanToo?
@approxinfinity The photo is one I took on my phone from my TV screen, and posted in my prior thread. It's probably because the video was stopped and the arms were moving in the frame. Sadly, not doctored. In fact, the KC Star hard a photo in its print edition were the ball is even further to Doke's left. U .. G .. L ..Y.
/topic/6949
@Texas-Hawk-10 Ok, I guess I'm not understanding this. You have concluded that ESPN and Fox want the Big 12 to fail -- meaning implode -- because they didn't want to amend their existing contract and pay more if the Big 12 added two more teams?
Why would that reaction by the networks lead to the definitive conclusion that they want the Big 12 to fail?
@mayjay Well, that little contract condition is my deal breaker. I'd be happy to take a payment from a third party, say, Adidas. Maybe not advisable.
But I did not see anything that said the was refusing coaching, or refusing to do what the coach's said to do. Maybe I missed that. I had understood he was receptive when this all hit the fan after the OU game. I'll add to my deal -- I won't even make him shoot granny style.
But the coach's have more pull. For his own good, for his development, for the team in the long run, MAKE him do it the right way. Bill Self has a reputation of demanding excellence in the manner in which a screen is hedged, etc. I think he can demand this be done. I really hope Doke returns, and I really hope Doke gets the chance to improve here. He's a monster near the hoop.
I'll never understand the free throw thing. I would take this challenge. Give me Doke for two weeks. Pay me $25,000. He'll make 60% of his free throws next season, and so long as he does it the way I suggest, I'll repay the $25,000 and chip in another $5,000 if he fails.
This picture says it all. It should never, ever, never, ever happen on a basketball court, playing nerf hoop, or wherever.
Do not let him play if he does this. Bench.
Doke can do this. He needs to be forced.
@JayHawkFanToo What I mean is that they affirmatively don't want to return to college. Best time of many folks' lives. I could see a kid saying I can't pass up the money, but I still really want to stay in college. He was focused on the fact that they want to leave.
I heard an interesting comment on the radio yesterday from Chris Stone, and NBA draft analyst or something. He said that everyone should remember that all players testing the waters or at the combine, do not want to come back to school. They'd rather leave. I guess I never really thought of it that way. That guys were ready to move on, and the only reason they don't, is because they may not have a good enough job.
@BigBad My apologies. My first read on your post was that it said Diallo not Svi. Sorry about that.
@JayHawkFanToo One observation I make is that Landen Lucas is playing basketball in Japan, on some team called Toyota Alvark. If the logic you are suggesting is each player's respective professional standing, Lucas is playing in McDonalds and Diallo is a step below Jean Georges in NY City. Diallo has actually played in an NBA game. Multiple games.
Now, you do realize what you're saying. You're saying that Diallo was so incompetent (BB IQ), and that despite the fact that he was simply better at basketball than our slug Landen Lucas, Self just couldn't play him. Yet, Diallo was somehow competent enough (BB IQ) to play in the NBA. 12 games his first season, 52 his second.
He was never more of a liability than an asset. He just needed game action to develop and acclimate. No doubt, it takes a little time to grasp the entire Self scheme. Self was just impatient because he had his safety blankets.
What he needed was time, commitment, and coaching. They gave up on him. They chose to abandon his development in favor of a low, low ceiling Lucas who when matched against better players, gets overwhelmed. The evidence is undeniable. Yet, in the face of knowing that, seeing that, and seeing the alternative player actually playing in the NBA while our guy (Lucas) sets picks on the Hamburglar in the basketball stronghold of Japan.
It's the same reason for playing Jamari Traylor -- the "known" was less risky than the "unknown." Bad way to make decisions.
It was a huge fail by Self and his staff.
@BigBad - Wrong. Just dead wrong. Diallo was 6'7 1/2 barefoot with a 7' 4 1/2 wingspan. Standing reach over 8' 11".
Lucas' wingspan is 4 1/2 inches less than Diallo.
Lucas was not a rim protector. Diallo was. Diallo could jump. Lucas, well, not really.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2640034-cheick-diallo-nba-combine-2016-measurements-analysis-and-draft-projection ↗
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Cheick-Diallo-71440/ ↗
http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3919335/cheick-diallo ↗
@approxinfinity I was referring to Diallo the season we lost to Nova in the Elite 8. That year, Diallo was banished in favor of the pedestrian Lucas, on the apparent assumption that we only needed our post man to do certain things. We can always revert to the idea about other factors. It is the perpetual "get out of jail free card" that can be played at any time, from folks (not you) that have no other explanation for bad decisions. It can always be a partial explanation -- of everything and anything.
The handling and lack of use of Diallo was horrible and unforgivable. Diallo wasn't this unique, stupid, malcontent who was incompetent on the court. You develop a player over a season.
If Lucas had been here this past season, or Traylor, DeSousa would never have seen the court. And DeSousa was twice the player (a minor hyperbole alert) that either of those guys ever were, within 60 days of setting foot on campus.
However, the second part of my point is just as horrible and unforgivable -- being in a position to rely on Lucas a starter as you pointed out (same with Jamari Traylor). Our program, our results, would have been better if neither of those players ever started a game. Bill Self need only look in the mirror when wondering why, over Mason's four seasons, we never reached the final four.
And, unfortunately, the above analysis being correct, it leads to only one conclusion. Bill Self blew it. Both with his decisions on playing time and his roster building. Watching Nova win it all, watching teams win with the stretch 4 at the 5 spot, we can now see how valuable Diallo would have been had he been managed properly. Self was behind the curve there and chose the plodder. How history might have been different had Diallo been the choice of Lucas.
So, why isn't the father in a situation like this indicted if Gatto is? I know there are no charges yet related to this matter, but the father (just like Preston"s mother -------- allegedly) is a clear conspirator. And if the player is 18, charge him too. Selective prosecution.
All this accepting the premise of the charging (and not getting bogged down in that debate) based on the prior discussion from @kcmatt7 and @mayjay and I believe @justanotherfan.
@JayHawkFanToo Sketchers better watch it. The Feds will charge them with defrauding the university by providing them shoes (impermissible benefits) that would make them ineligible (in theory) and thus deprive the university (the victim) of their anticipated benefit. And holy crap, FedEx could get charged for delivering them, as a co-conspirator. You might get charged for thinking about it.
Can you even imagine any school wearing Sketchers basketball shoes if there ever was such a thing?
They need to buy the Converse brand from Nike and use that name.
@mayjay Oooooh, you got me again!
@BucknellJayhawk3 I am and will continue to resist oversensitivity. Laughing at things is many times the best medicine.
Oversensitivity -- It is one of the biggest threats to our society today, as we see free speech trampled on in favor of not offending. Free speech is offending. The difference is, one side of the aisle would rather eliminate the speech, while another side would rather foster it.
"Being in a field of academia where women are not empowered ... " Huh? Good grief. Ask our former chancellor.
America, now, in 2018 is all about merit. There is no glass ceiling to anyone.
If folks ask that no one be treated unfairly, that will never happen. Life ain't fair.
Real "power" is not worrying about what others think and say. Real "power" is doing, and taking control of one's own destiny. Real power is taking advantage of the unlimited opportunities that this country offers, and to stop whining about every perceived slight. Start there first and then work backward.
Look at this picture. She is empowered, isn't she? She's a PHD, right? -- now, some of you, just try to laugh. It really helps.
![alt text](<a href="https://genderpressing.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/sexy-phd.jpg)
" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://genderpressing.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/sexy-phd.jpg) ↗
@justanotherfan Excellent explanation. While the legal system gets criticized (and of course deserves it at times), the horrific injuries and events that are a "risk analysis" justifies some of the results that seem outrageous. The reality is that most of the outrageous results are significantly lower dollar, where defendants pay to make a bogus and defendable claim go away.
@dylans A KSU friend/fan mentioned to me at a grad party over the weekend, that he wondered where he could go to see the cheerleaders. I told him he was insensitive, that I could not believe he would even joke around about such a thing, and that his view of women was horrific.
@JayHawkFanToo Bingo. What is comical is that the same "leaders" that will look to capitalize and spend more money, under the auspices of helping people, will (again) ignore that it has the result of taking money out of the pockets of folks that can't afford it -- see, liquor tax, cig. tax, sales tax, lottery, etc. Certain policies, championed by certain folks, tend to hurt the people those folks rely upon for votes. Quite an amazing dynamic that we see continue to occur.
@mayjay ... as you slither away, looking for more outrage.
@mayay What a laughable, misdirected, and typically misleading response. Your normal nonsense. Newsflash, this isn't a sex crime. Read the narrative in the story. You do your same deal. You try to extend the circle of the discussion to include something obviously outrageous -- referencing a "sex crime" -- to create something that isn't remotely related to the actual facts. By the same logic, I'm sure you equate a fist fight among kids to shooting someone. And I bet a good old fashioned fist fight among kids is outrageous to you as well.
If someone cannot separate a "sex crime" from the quite noble pastime of enjoying the beautiful female body (and I'm proud that I do), then I can't help you. It's the typical leftist tripe.
In the end, this simply girls running around naked by choice. They weren't forced to do anything. They made a choice. Not one comment about being "forced." There are plenty of women that say "no." So if the hazing was jumping off a bridge, would they have done it? Of course not.
This story has nothing to do with anyone being physically forced to do anything, which is much different. They weren't held down against their will, stripped, put in a car, and dropped in the middle of campus.
The issue is whether they should have been placed in this position in the first place, to even make the choice, which of course they shouldn't have been.
@jayballer73 To your response, this is crazy. Like with many things we hear that people do, it is simply unreal to consider the lack of foresight, thoughtfulness, and common sense.
Did Zenger know?
@mayjay Ah, now you can put your head on your pillow and sleep soundly, knowing that you have scolded the insensitive. It makes you feel better about yourself, I know. Thanks for your definition of "decent people." It makes me so thankful, every day, that I'm not one "you." Sometimes you can chuckle a little about something without getting your little panties in a knot.
Now, you can move on to a new outrage today. Search hard, you'll find one.
My conflict:
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Where does personal choice come into play when adults are involved?
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Did fellow cheerleaders really .. take .. the .. clothes .. off .. the .. other .. cheerleaders? Breath, guys, breath.
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If true, how stupid can a coach/administrator be?
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What does it take to be one of the "alumni guys?"
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I note that it is KSU's student newspaper that broke the story. The next story? "Naked Grazing" in Manhattan. Way too easy.
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Is this really slavery?
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What if one of the "alumni guys" was James Gatto?
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Someone had to have their cell phone camera running, right? Or a surveillance cam? Or an NSA satellite? Come on.
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Will this help or hurt recruiting? After all, isn't that all that matters?
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And finally, if UK or Duke did this, would there be stacking? 5 stack? 6 stack? Or good grief, a 7 stack?
Hmmm. Odd, I don't recall Sketchers competing. Maybe the 30% stock drop Sketchers just suffered is a motivator.
Or maybe the ruling today on another Sketchers vs. Adidas deal had something to do with it .. a win by Adidas.
I've owned Sketchers stock for about five years. That was a big pop down. But it has been a great stock. Stock tip - consider getting in now on this big dip and hold it for another five years. No dividend, so real good in a non-IRA/401k.
@JayHawkFanToo It's like indicting Merck, when Celgene, Pfizer, and Eli Lilly are doing the same thing. Sometimes prosecutions are done because the strongest evidence lies with one defendant, and it can send a message to the others. That could be the case. Some info fell into their laps, and more developed. I doubt it. This smacks of a prosecution done for headlines -- which it has received. And most likely a targeted and focused investigation.
Arizona is Nike, right?
@kjayhawks This investigation taints the programs whose names are associated with the criminal charges. The other big boys aren't there.
Remember the article from February? "Dozens of major programs"? Dozens means at least more than one dozen. Where are they since that time?
I think Garrett and Doke are different. Garrett's form is not a disaster. Doke's form was a disaster. Doke's FT shooting and what the coaches permit on the court is the issue. A coach should never have permitted Doke to even shoot that way. It's still poor. Basically, you don't play if you don't do it the right way. Otherwise, you're not giving him the best opportunity to succeed.
Demand it done the way you want it done. Once he complies, it's on him to execute.
Garrett, though, isn't a fundamental disaster. Just like his outside shot isn't a fundamental disaster. The shot plane (arc) is a great point made by @Barney. Stress, like a defender in his face, or with a hand up, on an outside shot can cause the arc to flatten. Guys rush, or tighten up, and revert to old form. But on the free throw line, that should not be a non-issue. I don't see why that arc issue on the free throws couldn't be addressed (demanded) in-season.
@Gorilla72 He didn't. Romeo's dad did.
@Crimsonorblue22 So you don't think this FBI thing effects kids' and families' decisions? Or just on these two (Romeo/Cremo)? I think big picture-wise it is a huge x-factor. Close call, KU and a school not named? I know what I'd tell my kid.
@chriz I don't think Sean Miller is raking it in. He lost two of this top three guys, he had to go a different route. Maybe I'm off base but it seems that it did impact AZ pretty substantially.
@Fightsongwriter Don't hate .. replicate.
And as an observation, Joe Cremo's parents missed the boat not naming their kid Romeo -- Romeo Cremo has a sweet ring to it.
@chriz You made me look .. where's Zona?
http://insider.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/classrankings ↗
And despite the recommitment (second link), the other two decommits did not come back. The article references, though, that Miller has landed some other players, which goes to your point. But not those top guys.
"Arizona lost all three of its early commits following the FBI investigation, including Jahvon Quinerly and Shareef O'Neal, with Williams the only one recommitting to the Wildcats. Since the season ended, though, Miller has gone out and landed ESPN 100 guard Devonaire Doutrive and Belgian forward Omar Thielemans in the 2018 class. He also picked up graduate transfers Justin Coleman (Samford) and Ryan Luther (Pittsburgh), both of whom will be eligible immediately."
@BeddieKU23 Correct .. and when you're named in an indictment related to your players getting paid.
@BShark So, I saw that article today but given the back and forth, the “politics” vs “basketball”, I didn’t post it. But man, that’s some good stuff.
I was a big Garrett fan for quite a while. But I agree with @Crimsonorblue22. His defense regressed, and I think his overall play regressed. On a team with shooters, you can be fine with a guy like Garrett. But on an offensively challenged team, with below average shooting (as this team appears to be), I think he'll be a significant liability if he's playing at the level he was at the end of the season. I think the jump from brick mason to competence might be harder than from competence to good (which we've seen here). But lots of time between now and next fall.
I know Cunliffe is an outcast for many, but if he can shoot well, on a team without shooters, can the shooting skill be a more valuable asset than a more complete basketball player? I think so. But I just don't know if Cunliffe even qualifies as a shooter yet.
I could easily see the defensively challenged Joe Cremo moving past Garrett, if we land him.
Things I get excited about -
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My beautiful wife.
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Any of my kids on the field of play, or in the car, or around the dinner table.
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A golf day with little wind.
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Slim Chickens or Freddy's. Either.
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Relaxing in the Colorado mountains, on cool day, near a stream.
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The idea of Bill Self fully embracing the three in his hi/lo offense.
I am a very simple man.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I wonder how much he can really improve in those aspects? This season, of all seasons, when the competition for rebounds was at a minimum (as I saw one commentator mention), Doke couldn't get big numbers on the boards. And his God given gifts don't translate learning to "guard the corner trey" as @jaybate-1-0 mentioned. Hope he's back.
@jaybate-1-0 And the odds on Doke being able to bang down that 12 footer? Long odds, I would bet.
The size thing mentioned above is key. Size can overwhelm. Skill inside always has value. That's his game. Lethality around the hoop can find him a roster spot I would imagine (I say that, of course, understanding that my NBA acumen is lacking, so I may be talking out of my backside).
I can wait. It gets cold in November. Lot of warm weather between now and then.
Edited .. probably wrong thread now that I look at it. I'll repost another spot.
Well, this is all just parsing details. The schools and shoe companies are partners by contract, right? Adidas pays KU to wear its gear. Why would Adidas pay a kid to go to KU? It helps KU. Not shocking. It is inexorably tied to the shoe deal and the partnership. DeSousa plays for KU. Adidas benefits. KU benefits. Under the current indictment theory -- the "benefit" from the payment ensnares the universities. I don't see how that's avoided.
It's what makes the characterization in the indictment of the school being the victim a bit laughable. Of course, it's the monolithic "school" as the victim, as referenced in the indictment. The various actors from the king (Self) to the peasant can be separated from the victim -- just wonder where that line is? By the way, the chancellor is below the king.
@BShark I don't know. Kind of. Just wondering if dumb people get indicted and smart people were, well, smarter about how they did things.
Could it be possible that Nike is not paying players?
@JayHawkFanToo Your quote from Ray Donovan as spot on. I've said this before, I firmly believe that Self is a target. Prosecutors love slaying targets that appear pristine. It's almost as if we were provoked into the "victim" discussion. I can see it now, Self indicted claiming he knew of payments made from Adidas to others, with that knowledge he did not protect KU from the fraud, he benefitted from not preventing the fraud, he was thus a co-conspirator, etc. James Gatto is not a "big fish." I wonder, yes I do, how much info that the prosecutors are attempting to extract from those that have been indicted.
Does anyone think this grandstanding prosecution is meant to stop with a pud like Gatto?
Some questions of Mr. Gatto in front of the Grand Jury - "Please, Mr. Gatto, tell me about your contacts with Kurtis Townsend": "Had you discussed with Townsend the payment to DeSousa"; "Did Townsend mention his knowledge of the UA payment"; "How much contact did you have with Larry Brown"; "Did Brown act as an intermediary between you and KU or you and DeSousa?"; "Towsend never said he doesn't tell Self about these matters, correct?"; "Was the fact that payments were made by Adidas to athletes something that head coaches were aware of?"; "Was there a don't ask, don't tell type of policy on these issues?"; "Who is the man in charge at KU?"; "If Self said "no, don't do that", you would have complied, correct?"; "So Self could have ultimately stopped this, correct?"
@jaybate-1-0 Try this ... surprise, surprise ... a prosecutor investigates a person or entity, and not a crime. They probe, they poke around, they interview, the develop sources, etc., all to find a crime. This is what happens in many of the Wall St. cases. They pick a firm, and go after them. Understanding that nearly everyone of them has some dirty laundry. Then, they have the hammer of obstruction of justice to create another crime if cooperation isn't pristine, and to intimidate into submission -- regardless of whether any crime has been committed.
And this goes to the theory of Nike vs. Adidas, doesn't it?
@JayHawkFanToo Hmmm. Sounds good to me. So James Gatto, et. al., dies on the cross for the sins of CBB? That would be something.
And I like the strict rules. It's exactly the path CBB should take, it's really what we've been saying. CBB has its lane, it can compete, it has value, and it doesn't need to become a lesser version of the NBA to succeed.
@jaybate-1-0 Who is the absolute best possible grad transfer, three point shooter? Or ....
Hmmm ... maybe we go back to my comments a while back. We are seeing the path for Sam Cunliffe I had mentioned. If he can shoot ... if ... the guy will be needed. He is not better at basketball than Garrett (overall), but if his one superior phase is something we desperately need, that makes him necessary.