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Draft Declarations Thread
Mar 30, 2018 02:12 PM #1

I figure since we have the recruiting threads and the transfer threads, this one needs to get going as well.

So far, the following players have declared:

  • DeAndre Ayton, C, Arizona, freshman | 7-0, 250

  • Marvin Bagley III, F, Duke, freshman | 6-11, 234

  • Mo Bamba, C, Texas, freshman | 6-11, 225

  • Michael Porter Jr., F, Missouri, freshman | 6-10, 215

  • Trae Young, G, Oklahoma, freshman | 6-2, 180

  • Miles Bridges, G/F, Michigan State, sophomore | 6-7, 225

  • Robert Williams, C, Texas A&M, sophomore | 6-10, 241

  • Keita Bates-Diop, F, Ohio State, junior | 6-7, 235

  • Aaron Holiday, G, UCLA, junior | 6-1, 185

  • Anfernee Simons, SG, IMG Academy | 6-3, 181

  • Justin Jackson, F, Maryland, sophomore | 6-7, 225

  • Rawle Alkins, G, Arizona, sophomore | 6-5, 220

  • LiAngelo Ball, SG, BC Vytautas (Lithuania) | 6-5, 215

  • Landry Shamet, G, Wichita State, junior | 6-4, 179

And these are the guys that have declared, but have not signed with an agent (AKA testing the waters):

  • Bruce Brown Jr., G, Miami, sophomore | 6-5, 190

  • Melvin Frazier, SG/SF, Tulane, junior | 6-6, 200

  • Jalen Hudson, G, Florida, junior | 6-6, 192

  • Josh Okogie, G, Georgia Tech, sophomore | 6-4, 213

  • Jarrey Foster, G, SMU, junior | 6-6, 220

  • Kostas Antetokounmpo, PF, Dayton, redshirt freshman | 6-10, 197

  • Allonzo Trier, G, Arizona, junior | 6-5, 205

  • Lindell Wigginton, G, Iowa State, freshman | 6-2, 188

  • Demajeo Wiggins, F, Bowling Green, junior | 6-10, 240

  • Robert Franks, F, Washington State, junior | 6-7, 240

  • Jalen McDaniels, F, San Diego State, freshman | 6-10, 195

  • Tyler Cook, F, Iowa, sophomore | 6-9, 255

  • Jon Davis, G, Charlotte, junior | 6-3, 195

Most of the guys on the second list (the testing the waters group) will likely be back in school next year. The only exceptions I think are Allonzo Trier because of the situation at Arizona and maybe Kostas Antetokounmpo (younger brother of Giannis Antetokounmpo), although most scouts say he is "far from ready." He may also head back to Europe, where his other brother (Thanasis) is playing after a brief stint in the NBA.

With the surprise Shamet declaration, Wichita State will be shopping the transfer market hard. Arizona probably will as well, though its hard to see why a big name guy with other opportunities might go there.

Once the tournament is over, I am sure we will see a few other declarations (deadline to declare is about 3 weeks from now - April 22). Then the musical chairs really starts.

Mar 30, 2018 02:27 PM #2

Darius Bazley to the G League Draft!

I believe Trier already told Arizona he wasn't coming back unless something drastic happened.

Admiral Schofield of Tennessee declared w/out agent.

Mar 30, 2018 02:28 PM #3

Corey Sanders of Rutgers to draft with agent

Shamorie Ponds of St. Johns w/out agent

Tyler Davis of Texas A&M has not stated 100% about agent. Most expect it to be no agent

Carson Edwards of Purdue w/out agent

James Palmer & Isaac Copeland of Nebraska both w/out agents

Kerwin Roach of Texas w/out agent

Brandon McCoy of UNLV to draft with Agent

Terence Davis of Ole Miss w/out Agent

Yoeli Childs of BYU w/out Agent

Chimezie Metu of USC with Agent

Mar 30, 2018 02:28 PM #4

Noah Dickerson from Washington declares w/out agent

Mar 30, 2018 02:28 PM #5

Jaylen Hands of UCLA declares for draft w/out agent

Mar 31, 2018 03:25 AM #6

Conner Frankamp said he plans on signing with an agent soon and will pursue professional basketball opportunities. Isn't sure where yet, but he'll be a pro somewhere with that jump shot. This was copied and pasted

Mar 31, 2018 02:16 PM #7

@Crimsonorblue22 Wishing the kid from Kansas all the best.

Mar 31, 2018 03:17 PM #8

Here's my response to these who have declared...

Mar 31, 2018 03:28 PM #9

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Conner Frankamp said he plans on signing with an agent soon and will pursue professional basketball opportunities. Isn't sure where yet, but he'll be a pro somewhere with that jump shot.

Connor Frankamp to the NBA? Umm, well...OK. If Sherron Collins struggled, don't see Frankamp even getting a sniff.

I admired him in high school.

Doubted him in college, and then he went to WSU.

He now says he will try the NBA? OK...good for him. :pray: :rolling_eyes:

Mar 31, 2018 03:31 PM #10

@truehawk93 Overseas probably.

Mar 31, 2018 04:03 PM #11

Pretty sure he's not thinking nba

Mar 31, 2018 07:28 PM #12

I could see Frankamp doing well in the lower levels of overseas ball. He's a great shooter, so he can earn money for years with that. Not an NBA talent, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him still getting paid to play basketball 10 years from now.

Mar 31, 2018 07:51 PM #13

@justanotherfan Nobody from KU yet. No surprise there. I think that VIck, Newman and Doke will all test the waters, probly get an invite to the combine too. Beyond that? I have no idea. Word is Newman should go pro. Vick and Doke, I think should both come back. But what if we get Langford?

Apr 01, 2018 01:12 AM #14

Nobody from the Final Four teams will declare until next Tuesday. Probably will see Wagner from Michigan, the three from KU and Bridges from Villanova. Maybe a few others as well.

Apr 01, 2018 03:57 AM #15

And the list of fools grows. 30 or so NBA teams, 60 draft picks, nearly half are taken these days by foreigners it seems. Plus graduating seniors hope to get drafted. A bunch of 1 or 2 year 'educated' college dropouts with nothing to show for it.

Apr 01, 2018 01:55 PM #16

@wissox They can go back now as long as no agent is hired.

Apr 02, 2018 11:30 AM #17

Evans of Cincinnati w/out Agent. I would however expect he stays in the draft

Apr 02, 2018 01:20 PM #18

My guess is Newman declares with agent, Doke declares w/o and probably comes back and Vick ends up somewhere else one way or another.

Apr 02, 2018 01:26 PM #19

@BShark

Agree on all.

Apr 02, 2018 03:49 PM #20

Nick Ward from Michigan St declares without an agent

Drew Eubanks from Oregon St declares with agent. LOL at that one

Apr 02, 2018 03:54 PM #21

Does Oregon need a scholarship? lol

Apr 02, 2018 03:55 PM #22

@wissox

Almost 40% of the players that played in the NBA this season spent some time in the G League before latching on with the NBA full time. I would expect that number to continue to climb, as probably only the true superstars entering the NBA won't spend at least some time in the G League for development. And with G League salaries now up to $75,000 per year, that's a very viable option.

Take Malik Newman for instance. He will either be a PG at the next level, or an undersized 2. Either way, he's going to be playing on the ball a lot more, probably as a PnR playmaker. If Malik is going to stick as a pro, he needs more reps on that stuff, particularly since he's already been in college for three years. If Malik were to stay at KU next year, he would probably still spend one or two seasons in the G League before being a full time NBA player. This way, he can spend that time in the G League (probably making $150,000+ over those two years) vs. playing for free at KU with the same risk of injury, not making it. If that happens, he can always go back and finish his degree if he so chooses, but he will have some savings to his name if he is smart with his money.

Obviously, he could be foolish and squander it, but that's not something that is particularly exclusive to athletes, despite the narrative. I have several friends from college that are in dire straits financially, and we all graduated. Some just didn't make very good decisions with their money.

Apr 02, 2018 04:47 PM #23

@justanotherfan

When did the contracts for the G League get that high? I thought most were around 25k? Is that taking into account 2 way contracts?

Apr 02, 2018 06:16 PM #24

@BeddieKU23

It was when they switched from D-League to G League. The Gatorade sponsorship raised the contract minimums because the NBA wants to have players utilize that as a development model rather than going to Europe or something else. $75k is enough to make it worthwhile to not worry about culture shock, etc.

This is all part of the NBA's ultimate plan to have more say in the development model for their league, similar to baseball and European soccer (the MLS is starting to do this as well, although the academies are not as well established as their European counterparts).

The two way contracts allow guys to make over a quarter of a million. I would imagine here in a few years you will see most first rounders and pretty much every second rounder on two way deals for their first year unless they can come in and start right away.

Apr 02, 2018 06:32 PM #25

Jaren Jackson JR declaring w/ agent. What a wasted one year at MSU.

Apr 02, 2018 06:55 PM #26

BShark said:

Jaren Jackson JR declaring w/ agent. What a wasted one year at MSU.

Top 3 pick potentially, yeah that was just a matter of time. I'm a little on the fence with him. Lots of talent, not sure he's really ready for this.

Apr 02, 2018 06:57 PM #27

@justanotherfan

Thanks! I think the general consensus out there is that the G-League isn't paying well enough but if that's where they are headed towards then we will see a dramatic shift in the top HS kids in the future as well. Bazley is yet another example of this from this years class.

I'm surprised its taken the league this long to go in this direction.

Apr 02, 2018 07:34 PM #28

By Vick leaving are we are talking about to play pro ball somewhere, but not transferring, correct?

Apr 02, 2018 07:35 PM #29

@BucknellJayhawk3

Yes, lots of options for him to play pro.

Transferring out to sit a year to play 1 wouldn't seem likely

Apr 02, 2018 07:38 PM #30

@BucknellJayhawk3 This is the exact scenario why players should all be able to hire agents strictly to get the best information possible.

Vick should be able to sign an agent who can get him offers from all over the World and he could make a truly informed decision. Instead, Vick has no idea what his pro prospects look like.

That is a rule that should be changed.

Apr 02, 2018 08:05 PM #31

@BShark said, "My guess is Newman declares with agent, Doke declares w/o and probably comes back and Vick ends up somewhere else one way or another."

BeddieKU23 said:

@BShark

Agree on all.

Ditto.

Apr 03, 2018 12:09 AM #32

Tony Carr leaving Penn State.

Apr 03, 2018 12:14 AM #33

@BShark Vick leaving appears to be the prevailing feeling. What is driving that?

Apr 03, 2018 01:10 AM #34

@Hawk8086 Perhaps the apparent lack of commitment on the court game after game???

Apr 03, 2018 01:42 AM #35

Shine and Sima leaving Okie St.

Apr 03, 2018 10:42 AM #36

BShark said:

Shine and Sima leaving Okie St.

Oklahoma St returning 3 players who even played. lol. 5 open scholarships

Apr 03, 2018 10:58 AM #37

Barry Brown from K-St declares without Agent.

Dewan Huell from Miami declares without Agent.

Clemons's duo of Reed & Mitchell declare without Agents.

Kevin Knox and Alexander of Kentucky expected to declare with Agents any day.

Apr 03, 2018 12:43 PM #38

BeddieKU23 said:

BShark said:

Shine and Sima leaving Okie St.

Oklahoma St returning 3 players who even played. lol. 5 open scholarships

I thought they were going to be interesting next year but now......

Apr 03, 2018 12:59 PM #39

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

BShark said:

Shine and Sima leaving Okie St.

Oklahoma St returning 3 players who even played. lol. 5 open scholarships

I thought they were going to be interesting next year but now......

Dumpster fire now. Except when they find 4 grad transfers that play like Kobe against KU.

Apr 03, 2018 06:22 PM #40

Jaren Jackson's statement is awesome.

Michigan State is an amazing place. And this has been an amazing year —from the time I hit the campus in June for summer workouts and summer school until now. I never imagined it would be like this. Never. Playing for Coach Izzo and the rest of the staff has been incredible. They’ve helped me develop so much, both on and off the court. After only one year, I know my memories are few but they will never be forgotten: football games, late night study group and early morning study hall at the Smith Center, the Breslin and the mighty Izzone, the PK80 title, the outright Big Ten Championship, and being recognized as Freshman of the Year and Defensive Player of the Year in the B1G. Please know that nothing was lost on me. Still, nothing is bigger than the bond I have with my teammates. These guys are my family. They will always be my brothers.

Spartans, this was not an automatic decision. And honestly, thank you for making it one of the toughest decisions I’ve ever had to think about. While playing in the NBA was always my dream and desire, I did not know the opportunity would present itself in quite this way. I’m ready to live my dreams and I cannot pass it up. Therefore, the time has come to declare for the 2018 NBA Draft.

Even though I will no longer play for MSU, I will ALWAYS be a Spartan! I will finish my studies and I will kiss the Spartan helmet on the Breslin court.

SpartanForLife

Go Green!

-Jaren

Apr 03, 2018 06:32 PM #41

Ray Spalding hiring an agent from Louisville.

Nevada's trio, twins Cody & Caleb Martin & Jordan Caroline testing without agents

Apr 03, 2018 06:33 PM #42

@BShark

He was automatically gone before he stepped foot in College. These kids are funny

Apr 03, 2018 06:33 PM #43

@BShark Mercy , going to be lots of new faces in the Big 12 next year. - -Okie St - - Texas Tech -Texas

Apr 03, 2018 06:36 PM #44

@BShark I find quite a bit of class in it

Apr 03, 2018 06:42 PM #45

BeddieKU23 said:

@BShark

He was automatically gone before he stepped foot in College. These kids are funny

I thought it was cool. Clearly he loved it there. I didn't get that feeling from some of the KU oads.

Apr 03, 2018 07:06 PM #46

@BShark

I agree it was a classy letter. I just find it funny that the decision was actually that difficult after he's been projected Top 5 prospect since last spring

Apr 03, 2018 07:18 PM #47

Yeah you have to go when you are projected top 5. Then again Bridges stayed. Something in the water up there I guess.

Apr 03, 2018 07:37 PM #48

@BShark I don't think Self helps himself though. He trusts experienced players to a fault. Look how much of an impact De Sousa made when Self was forced to develop him.

Oubre, Cliff, Diallo and Bragg (not OAD, but probably could have been in the right circumstance I think) all got screwed coming here imo. Tons of talent that we just never unleashed.

Bill will forever be fitting square pegs into round holes. I'm not saying to go full Calipari and just hope your talent plays well enough to overcome poor strategy, but 3 out of those 4 should have been major impact players at the college level.

But then there are other guys that I think never were here mentally. Henry, Selby and Wiggs should never have played college ball. We weren't even Henry's or Selby's first choice. So that definitely doesn't help with buying in. Wiggs has literally never looked like he even likes playing basketball.

The only OAD that has seemed worth taking so far is JJ.

That's the reason I like the recruits we have this season. Dotson De Sousa and Grimes would have to have monster years to be OAD. They have something to play for instead of these higher ranked guys that are just trying to make it through a year.

Apr 03, 2018 07:41 PM #49

Declarations will probably pick up now that the season is over.

I imagine Brunson, Bridges, Wagner, and Newman will all declare with or without agents in the next few days. Quite a few others may test the waters.

It wouldn't be the worst decision for guys like Azubuike and Dean Wade (KSU) to test the waters so they know where they specifically need to improve over the next year. That's what Barry Brown is likely doing, and I think it is smart for a guy that may be a year away to test and get feedback. Because you can't really have contact, most college players don't have anyone they can talk to that can give them legitimate feedback and guidance. Vick should at least test the water for that reason. Even if he does return, he needs a specific list of things to work on so that he can round out his game to have the best possible opportunity in the pros.

Apr 03, 2018 07:52 PM #50

Kcmatt7 said:

@BShark I don't think Self helps himself though. He trusts experienced players to a fault. Look how much of an impact De Sousa made when Self was forced to develop him.

Oubre, Cliff, Diallo and Bragg (not OAD, but probably could have been in the right circumstance I think) all got screwed coming here imo. Tons of talent that we just never unleashed.

Bill will forever be fitting square pegs into round holes. I'm not saying to go full Calipari and just hope your talent plays well enough to overcome poor strategy, but 3 out of those 4 should have been major impact players at the college level.

But then there are other guys that I think never were here mentally. Henry, Selby and Wiggs should never have played college ball. We weren't even Henry's or Selby's first choice. So that definitely doesn't help with buying in. Wiggs has literally never looked like he even likes playing basketball.

The only OAD that has seemed worth taking so far is JJ.

That's the reason I like the recruits we have this season. Dotson De Sousa and Grimes would have to have monster years to be OAD. They have something to play for instead of these higher ranked guys that are just trying to make it through a year.

Overall I would agree.

Cliff was coming along before the suspension issue.

Oubre and Diallo were just about Self's biggest failures at KU imo. Oubre played about as many minutes as Jamari, while Oubre was no worse than the third best player on that team. Self should have unleashed Oubre from the start, instead he stifled him and it hurt his development.

Grimes thinks he is OAD. He very well might be but I can see some struggles with him early. Dotson I think will be the man from day one. Very nice job by the staff getting a good class with good fits in an overall weak class.

Apr 03, 2018 10:14 PM #51

@BShark

I will respectfully disagree on Oubre. Only Mason (36), Perry (34) and Selden (36) started more games than Oubre (27) and comparing his time with Traylor is not correct since Traylor was the starting Center sharing time with Lucas and Alexander and neither of them was that competent or experienced at the the time while Oubre was competing for time with Selden, Ellis, Svi and Green and yet he managed to average 21 mpg (more in conference play) and was the overall #15 pick in the draft after his freshman year. Perry, Selden, Mason, Graham and Green had all better 3 point shooting % than Oubre.

All things consider, a pretty successful year for Oubre.

Apr 03, 2018 10:40 PM #52

@JayHawkFanToo Oubre was never competing for time with Perry for PT really. I never remember a time where Ellis played the "3." Oubre should have been playing 30mpg easy. His advanced stats are off the charts compared to all of the other guards. Had we let him play through mistakes and grow, I think he probably goes top 5 in the draft and leaves on a similar note as JJ. He was our best defender and most efficient scoring guard. He almost lead the team in steals despite the fact he played much less than any Frank or Selden.

He should have gotten all of Svi's minutes that year. Svi was a 17 year old who could barely speak any English at that point. Yet he ate up 11 mpg.

I could not confidently say Oubre was handled correctly, or in the best way to maximize the team's potential by the end of the season.

Apr 04, 2018 12:34 AM #53

Ethan Happ declares but won't hire agent which probably means he's back (fingers crossed) for his senior Badger season.

Apr 04, 2018 03:05 AM #54

@JayHawkFanToo Oubre was better than Selden that year. It wasn't particularly close either.

Apr 04, 2018 03:12 AM #55

Kcmatt7 said:

@JayHawkFanToo Oubre was never competing for time with Perry for PT really. I never remember a time where Ellis played the "3." Oubre should have been playing 30mpg easy. His advanced stats are off the charts compared to all of the other guards. Had we let him play through mistakes and grow, I think he probably goes top 5 in the draft and leaves on a similar note as JJ. He was our best defender and most efficient scoring guard. He almost lead the team in steals despite the fact he played much less than any Frank or Selden.

He should have gotten all of Svi's minutes that year. Svi was a 17 year old who could barely speak any English at that point. Yet he ate up 11 mpg.

I could not confidently say Oubre was handled correctly, or in the best way to maximize the team's potential by the end of the season.

Real talk right here.

I think Selden was playing nicked up that year which didn't help.

Apr 04, 2018 03:41 AM #56

@BShark @Kcmatt7

It is hard to tell whether Oubre was better than Selden since it a a subjective opinion but Selden had the advantage of an extra year in the system. Oubre’s numbers might be somewhat skewed because he did not play as much at the start of the season and his playing time increased as the season moved on. Both were All Big 12 Honorable Mention; Perry was First team and Mason Second team All Conference.

Apr 04, 2018 03:44 AM #57

@JayHawkFanToo In that case it's kind of more impressive, because Oubre couldn't compile stats against weak teams. Like what Vick did this year.

Apr 04, 2018 03:49 AM #58

@BShark

I was referring to playing time, his scoring increased in proportion to the increased playing time.

Apr 04, 2018 05:03 AM #59

Oubre came on strong late. Bill himself said he should’ve played him more early in the season. Lesson learned. Water under the bridge.

Apr 04, 2018 11:59 AM #60

PJ Washington of Kentucky, no Agent

Isiah Moss of Iowa, no Agent

Kris Wilkes of UCLA, no Agent

Konate of West Virginia, no Agent

Zhaire Smith of Texas Tech, no Agent

Apr 04, 2018 11:59 AM #61

PJ Washington of Kentucky, no Agent

Isiah Moss of Iowa, no Agent

Kris Wilkes of UCLA, no Agent

Konate of West Virginia, no Agent

Zhaire Smith of Texas Tech, no Agent

Apr 04, 2018 12:13 PM #62

Smith is a projected first rounder everywhere I look.

Apr 04, 2018 12:19 PM #63

Surprising to see Kevin Knox reports about him being torn on whether to declare. A lotto pick if he leaves..

Apr 04, 2018 12:32 PM #64

Cal must want him back then. :joy:

Apr 04, 2018 12:49 PM #65

BShark said:

Cal must want him back then. :joy:

He sold his soul and told him he should come back to both Kevin and his dad. Seems like they are buying into it

Apr 04, 2018 02:55 PM #66

Cal getting desperate lol.

Apr 04, 2018 03:02 PM #67

@Kcmatt7 Yeah, the 18 class is pretty bad. Looks like he really won't take a big this class so it will be interesting to see who goes and stays.

Apr 04, 2018 03:13 PM #68

@BShark Well let's hope SGA, Washington and Knox all go. Then Green transfers. That would leave them with a rough group lol.

Apr 04, 2018 03:18 PM #69

@Kcmatt7 Rough by UK standards I suppose. Still a lot of talent. Post situation won't change a ton either way.

Apr 04, 2018 03:34 PM #70

Kcmatt7 said:

Cal getting desperate lol.

I think I've read Cal has never returned his leading scorer since coaching Kentucky. I don't know what to believe but there are some UK people believing he's coming back..

Apr 04, 2018 03:36 PM #71

BShark said:

Yeah you have to go when you are projected top 5. Then again Bridges stayed. Something in the water up there I guess.

Has a player ever really improved his stock by coming back that was projected lottery after their freshman year. I remember Smart coming back and he dropped a bit, Bridges didn't really improve his stock, Robert Williams didn't either..

Apr 04, 2018 03:50 PM #72

BeddieKU23 said:

Kcmatt7 said:

Cal getting desperate lol.

I think I've read Cal has never returned his leading scorer since coaching Kentucky. I don't know what to believe but there are some UK people believing he's coming back..

Drugged by Cal.

Apr 04, 2018 04:39 PM #73

Auburn's Mustapha Heron signing with an Agent

Apr 04, 2018 04:40 PM #74

Oregon's Troy Brown signing with an Agent. No surprise there

Apr 04, 2018 04:58 PM #75

I could actually see Knox moving up to be a top 5 pick in 2019 if he returns. If he can improve his ball handling so that he can be a primary scorer at the next level, he's a top 5 pick, particularly since the 2018 HS group isn't exactly overwhelming. If Knox can make himself into a star at the next level, he should return and do that. If he can't, he should go and be a role player now.

SGA probably leaves. Washington probably returns. UK is probably stacked if that happens. If SGA stays, look out. They are right on the level with KU and Duke.

Apr 04, 2018 05:30 PM #76

The only declaration I have is I have no clue who the acronyms stand for if they aren't a KU guy.

Apr 04, 2018 06:23 PM #77

@dylans The problem with America today is there is way too much acronymony, er, acrimony.

Apr 04, 2018 06:24 PM #78

@dylans Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is SGA. The only reason I abbreviate his is because it is a lot to write every time lol.

Apr 04, 2018 06:45 PM #79

@Kcmatt7

Looks like Cal’s magic is wearing out. For all the talent UK has accumulated it has only 1 NC to show. The UK forums after the loss to KSU were harsh; fans are tired of the OAD that does not benefit the program but only a handful of players and Cal’s reputation.

Apr 04, 2018 07:05 PM #80

@JayHawkFanToo But when UK had a bunch of players drafted that was the best day in UK basketball history according to Cal.

Apr 04, 2018 07:27 PM #81

@BShark

It was great day for Cal but not necessarily for UK and fans are starting to realize it is not working that great for them.

Apr 04, 2018 10:03 PM #82

I don't have to self ban, as expected.

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2018/apr/04/kansas-guard-malik-newman-enter-nba-draft/ ↗

Apr 04, 2018 10:04 PM #83

@BShark I like Malik, a lot! Gonna miss him. I hate this time of year.

Apr 04, 2018 10:06 PM #84

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@BShark I like Malik, a lot! Gonna miss him. I hate this time of year.

I would have loved him back as much as anyone but this is the correct decision for him and was, like I said, the worst kept secret in Lawrence.

Apr 04, 2018 10:11 PM #85

Apr 04, 2018 11:17 PM #86

@BShark so does this leave us over 1 on schollies or back to even? Room for Romeo yet ?

Apr 04, 2018 11:19 PM #87

@Blown Full up (13) on scholarships as of right now. Vick should leave though, thus room for Romeo. There is room for Romeo either way though. :pick:

Apr 04, 2018 11:21 PM #88

Newman is gone.

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2018/apr/04/kansas-guard-malik-newman-enter-nba-draft/?mens_basketball ↗

Apr 04, 2018 11:23 PM #89

Best of luck to Malik, I think he can be a serviceable back up in the NBA.

Apr 04, 2018 11:28 PM #90

BShark said:

Oubre and Diallo were just about Self's biggest failures at KU imo. Oubre played about as many minutes as Jamari, while Oubre was no worse than the third best player on that team. Self should have unleashed Oubre from the start, instead he stifled him and it hurt his development.

Oubre with all of his talent was not playing good enough defense and Self sat his ass. It motivated him and it worked. Go look at the guys Cal at Kentucky doesnt get to quick enough in the short amount of he has. Self has run into that a couple of times too. Some kids take a bit longer to get it mentally. When they are considered one and done there is pressure, which Self will NEVER succumb to, to play them anyway.

Apr 04, 2018 11:47 PM #91

Duke's Trevon Duval declares for NBA Draft @AdamZagoria

Apr 05, 2018 12:04 AM #92

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Duke's Trevon Duval declares for NBA Draft @AdamZagoria

No shocker there. He didn’t really want to play college ball anyway.

Apr 05, 2018 12:09 AM #93

@FarmerJayhawk Quite frankly I was surprised he did.

Apr 05, 2018 12:10 AM #94

Jayhawks' Malik Newman could go in first round, NBA execs say

Ok...Vick? Cunliffe? Since Newman declared, that opens up pt for Romeo. Look for Romeo to commit once Vick jumps or Cunliffe transfers.

Come on Romeo, commit already. Self will work out the paper.

Apr 05, 2018 12:27 AM #95

BShark said:

@FarmerJayhawk Quite frankly I was surprised he did.

Really? He was always a guy who was gone no matter what. It was Duke or overseas for him. Kid wants paid.

Apr 05, 2018 12:53 AM #96

@FarmerJayhawk No I mean I'm surprised he played in college. I was thinking he might go the Mudiay/TFerg route and play somewhere else for a year and get paid.

Apr 05, 2018 01:05 AM #97

BShark said:

@FarmerJayhawk No I mean I'm surprised he played in college. I was thinking he might go the Mudiay/TFerg route and play somewhere else for a year and get paid.

Ah gotcha. I was too. I figured he’d go with the UA to Australia pipeline.

Apr 05, 2018 01:31 AM #98

@kjayhawks I don't know you well enough, but if that were from my lips "Serviceable NBA backup" it would have been dripping with sarcasm.

Apr 05, 2018 01:33 AM #99

@nuleafjhawk Lol, no that’s not in my sarcasm font, I actually think he can be.

Apr 05, 2018 01:35 AM #100

Newman can hopefully linger around the NBA but worst case scenario he is playing pro ball somewhere else for 1 million+ a year. He was smart to leave now.

Apr 05, 2018 01:36 AM #101

Figured Newman was a goner, and wish him luck. I enjoyed his month or two as a Jayhawk a lot for sure.

Apr 05, 2018 01:37 AM #102

@kjayhawks See, that's just funny as hell to me. Be a legend in Lawrence and then make a bunch of dough, or jump to the NBA and be a well paid, no name pine rider for 10 years. Its probably just me - I only remember and respect players who stay the duration in college. I'm still pissed at Paul Pierce.

Apr 05, 2018 01:40 AM #103

@nuleafjhawk Pierce, Gooden, Aldrich and a few others at least stayed three years. I can live with that. Slipping in to get some ESPN time for a year. Bleh.

Apr 05, 2018 01:49 AM #104

@nuleafjhawk It depends on the situation, my inside sources told me he’d be here one year with him already playing one at MSU and sitting out a year. I’m not mad at any of the guys for leaving early, the purpose of college is to prepare yourself for your profession. If a kid is projected in the first round, which means you get a contract for 3 years, I have no problem with that. It’s not the kids fault it’s a faulty system. Now the kids that leave like Josh Selby to get picked late second round, one could argue that pretty silly but hell not being drafted worked pretty well for Selden.

Apr 05, 2018 01:57 AM #105

@nuleafjhawk I'm still mad at Norm Cook.

Apr 05, 2018 01:58 AM #106

@mayjay May he rest in peace.

Apr 05, 2018 02:00 AM #107

@kjayhawks Who's Josh Selby?

Apr 05, 2018 02:06 AM #108

@DanR 3 years is tolerable. Still, who are the KU players that we all really love? For me - Frank Mason, Devonte Graham, Svi, Danny Manning, oh Lord - so many who stayed all 4 years when they could (or some would say should) have gone early but stayed at KU for one reason -loyalty. Loyal to their coaches, loyal to their fans, loyal to themselves. College basketball at The University of Kansas is the experience of a lifetime. The NBA is a effing job. That's it. A high paying job to be sure, but a job.

Apr 05, 2018 02:10 AM #109

@mayjay I'm a little weirded out right now. I've followed KU basketball seriously since I was probably 10 years old (1968) I had to Google Norm Cook. I don't have any recollection of him. My apologies to Mr Cook's family, friends, fans.

Apr 05, 2018 02:15 AM #110

@nuleafjhawk He was great. The first freshmen to start at KU. Since you googled, I guess you know his tragic story. He was one of my heroes when he played.

Apr 05, 2018 02:23 AM #111

@nuleafjhawk Might I recommend the KSU or WSU programs? Almost all their players stay 4 years!

Apr 05, 2018 02:38 AM #112

@BShark I get mad at JUCO players for leaving after 2 years.

Apr 05, 2018 09:42 AM #113

Lonnie Walker and his 2 feet hair are off to the NBA with a Hair Agent

Apr 05, 2018 09:42 AM #114

Collin Sexton to Draft

Apr 05, 2018 10:38 AM #115

@BShark Ouch

Apr 05, 2018 01:28 PM #116

@BeddieKU23 Both of those are totally stunning....

Apr 05, 2018 03:16 PM #117

A big thank you shout out to Malik!

He figured things out and became extremely effective. I wish him the best moving forward! Another great Jayhawk that will always be remembered and honored in Jayhawkland and AFH!

Apr 05, 2018 06:03 PM #118

If only Self could assemble a Fab Five of sorts. Like everyone else, we are always a piece or two away from a complete team. Next year will be no different. Was our best "Fab Five" the '08 team?

Apr 05, 2018 06:11 PM #119

BucknellJayhawk3 said:

If only Self could assemble a Fab Five of sorts. Like everyone else, we are always a piece or two away from a complete team. Next year will be no different. Was our best "Fab Five" the '08 team?

Next year is pretty complete. Just young in the back court.

If Grimes stays a 2nd year watch out, he will be a star. SO Dotson, SO Grimes, JR Garrett, Matt Hurt, JR Silvio would be about as good of a line-up as we've ever seen. Would have some solid reserves too.

Apr 05, 2018 06:18 PM #120

@BShark I was thinking next year might be the most complete team (talent wise) we've had in a while, with the caveat that we won't have that many returning minutes, especially if Vick leaves. Things will certainly be interesting with young guards.

Apr 05, 2018 06:19 PM #121

@BucknellJayhawk3 Agree. Very complete, lots of options. I hope that Self finds the best style for the pieces.

Apr 05, 2018 06:25 PM #122

@nuleafjhawk To your point ... I had my issues with Jamari Traylor's playing time. But I certainly hold Traylor, and his time here, and his contributions and commitment to Kansas in higher stead than an Andrew Wiggins, or Josh Jackson, for example. Win a NC, and I'll talk about reconsidering. Not that I look down on the OADs, I appreciate who they are and what they are, and I understand the lure of instant generational money. But I'm selfishly interested in Kansas basketball, that's all. No doubt they help KU recruit and give our program increased value and prestige. I'd just rather shake Traylor's hand, if I had to choose.

Apr 05, 2018 06:37 PM #123

Traylor was a warrior for this program for 5 years I can't fault him at all. Can fault Self for his minutes though.

Apr 05, 2018 08:57 PM #124

Looking at our roster, and projected future rosters, I think this is where Self goes on an unprecedented run of FFs and possibly NCs. We have a great combination of size, talent and depth. A great mix of 4 year guys and potential OADs. Mitch will go from our 2nd big to possibly our 6th depending on how everything shakes out still. At least the 4th. That is depth. We brought in a nice project in Ochai, we have a great project at PG coming next season in Jacobs, we have ins with what feels like 6 of the 2019 post players, local talent is emerging, potential for another generational type African Big in 2020, USA Basketball will make a nice impact, etc etc etc.

Things look good. I haven't been this optimistic about winning a NC in a good lone while.

Apr 05, 2018 09:07 PM #125

@HighEliteMajor I always go back to Danny Manning. He would have been totally justified to jump to the NBA at any point - as a Sophomore or a Junior. He literally became a legend by staying all four years PLUS won us another National Championship. Would we have a couple more if, say Wiggins or Josh Jackson had stayed? Maybe not, but they would have been held in much higher esteem in my eyes. And I know that's important to them.....

Apr 05, 2018 09:10 PM #126

Kcmatt7 said:

Looking at our roster, and projected future rosters, I think this is where Self goes on an unprecedented run of FFs and possibly NCs. We have a great combination of size, talent and depth. A great mix of 4 year guys and potential OADs. Mitch will go from our 2nd big to possibly our 6th depending on how everything shakes out still. At least the 4th. That is depth. We brought in a nice project in Ochai, we have a great project at PG coming next season in Jacobs, we have ins with what feels like 6 of the 2019 post players, local talent is emerging, potential for another generational type African Big in 2020, USA Basketball will make a nice impact, etc etc etc.

Things look good. I haven't been this optimistic about winning a NC in a good lone while.

I'M FIRED UP.

Ochai just won the area poty: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/high-school/article207998279.html ↗

Jacobs will be great in time. Kid is a warrior and has that Tyshawn/Mario shit talking swagger game down. Give me those types over shy players every time.

2019 class could be loaded again.

Apr 05, 2018 09:10 PM #127

@nuleafjhawk It was the 80s, totally different time. For the most part, players stayed in school.

Apr 05, 2018 09:12 PM #128

@BShark It wasn't unheard of, but yes that's true. Still, it doesn't change my question of what would have happened if some of those who had bailed on us would have stayed.

Apr 05, 2018 09:13 PM #129

@nuleafjhawk Kentucky would probably have a lot of championships.

Apr 05, 2018 09:20 PM #130

@BShark Lol - no doubt.

Apr 06, 2018 04:33 AM #131

@nuleafjhawk I'm still pissed at Drew Gooden. 2003 National champs, might have gone undefeated.

Apr 06, 2018 04:38 AM #132

While I don't begrudge any kid for going early for the money, I still get miffed at kids throwing away the potential to win the big one in college. I loved it when Frank Kaminsky wrote an article saying he could get drafted and play for some team like Charlotte and 10,000 bored fans, or come back for his senior year and play in front of 16,000 crazy college fans. It was a no brainer.

I actually read on a similar thread that some fans were somewhat relieved because now KU will have a better chance of landing Romeo. They'd be glad I guess to have a freshman ranked 5th in the country, over a 4th year junior, who incidentally was ranked 3rd in the country? Pretty crazy.

Apr 06, 2018 01:12 PM #133

@wissox Those people are silly Newman would’ve been great to have back. Vick I’m torn on, I wish he had some leadership qualities.

Apr 06, 2018 03:08 PM #134

Kansas Basketball
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Lagerald Vick announces he will forego his senior season with #KUbball to pursue a professional career.

Apr 06, 2018 03:14 PM #135

:coffee:

Apr 06, 2018 03:28 PM #136

Didn't sign an agent though.

Apr 06, 2018 03:29 PM #137

Kcmatt7 said:

Didn't sign an agent though.

He's done at KU.

Apr 06, 2018 03:30 PM #138

Formalities at this point

Apr 06, 2018 03:32 PM #139

@BeddieKU23

Apr 06, 2018 03:35 PM #140

I figured this was coming. Vick will probably spend a year or two in the G League before he has a chance to hook on consistently with an NBA team, similar to what Wayne Selden did, playing most of two seasons in the G League and now getting more consistent work in the NBA.

Apr 06, 2018 03:38 PM #141

@justanotherfan Or maybe a foreign league depending on what kind of contract he is hoping for.

This quote from Self is telling

Self on Vick: "I believe the time is right for him to move on, explore his options as a professional and see what develops."

Basically: Goodbye. You don't have to go anywhere but you can't stay here.

Apr 06, 2018 03:45 PM #142

Well I think Romeo's decision will come before too long.

Apr 06, 2018 03:51 PM #143

@BShark Man, that is telling .. particularly since he's not hiring an agent in the announcement.

So, Romeo waited to announce, and if he picks Vandy or Indiana, why did he wait?

Apr 06, 2018 03:57 PM #144

@HighEliteMajor Nothing wrong with due diligence. Kid is worth $1M literally right this second if he wanted to play overseas. No reason to rush a decision. I still think it is done to KU though.

Apr 06, 2018 04:08 PM #145

Gonna need a roster next season to know who's who.

Apr 06, 2018 04:22 PM #146

ā€œI've always told him, you cannot be selfish in your position,ā€ LaLa told the Journal-World Friday morning. ā€œYou've done your part, it's time to let some other teenager who has been working hard for his dream to come in and do his thing. Come in, work hard, put your toes in the water and let's get it. It's time to swim. Michael Phelps. Let's do this.ā€

Apr 06, 2018 04:26 PM #147

LaLa Vick sure took her LaLa's today

Apr 06, 2018 04:26 PM #148

wissox said:

Gonna need a roster next season to know who's who.

Did you mean program?

Apr 06, 2018 04:27 PM #149

Kcmatt7 said:

Well I think Romeo's decision will come before too long.

That would be great!

Apr 06, 2018 04:27 PM #150
  • PG: Dotson - 32MPG : Moore - 8 MPG
  • SG: Grimes - 28 MPG: Garrett - 14 MPG
  • SF: Langford - 30 MPG: Garrett - 10 MPG
  • PF: Dedric - 30 MPG : Lightfoot/KJ - 10 MPG
  • C: Doke: 25 MPG : De Sousa - 15 MPG

I think it does look more and more likely Doke leaves... in which case, this is my thoughts:

  • PG: Dotson - 32MPG : Moore - 8 MPG
  • SG: Grimes - 28 MPG: Garrett - 14 MPG
  • SF: Langford - 30 MPG: Garrett - 10 MPG
  • PF: KJ - 22 MPG : Lightfoot - 10 MPG : De Sousa - 8 MPG
  • C: Dedric: 30 MPG : De Sousa - 10 MPG

I really like the starting group with KJ and Dedric. I think that let's us stretch the floor and play fluently on offense, while still be really long on the defensive end.

Apr 06, 2018 04:28 PM #151

This is one of the strangest announcements I can recall. Maybe, ever. This has the signs of being pushed/prodded out all over it.

Apr 06, 2018 04:33 PM #152

from nbascouting

Lagerald Vick
Height: 6-5
Weight: 180
College: Kansas
Classification: Junior
Birthdate: 1/12/1997
2018 Top 100 Rank: 86
​
Projected Draft Range: 2nd Round to Undrafted
​
Pros:
Excels at scoring on the move
Adequate scorer off the dribble
Adequate shooter from all over the floor
Adequate playmaker
Fairly good rebounder
Adequate defensive player
Great athlete
​
Cons:
Streaky shooter
Does not draw many free throws
His free throw shooting has really tapered off
Can be a bit turnover prone
Can be too passive on offense
Does not always commit to the boards
Can have lapses defensively
Can be too inconsistent in games
​
Summary:
Lagerald Vick is an athletic, skilled offensive minded combo guard that can shoot and pass the basketball. He did not see much playing time in his freshman year, and had a fairly pedestrian sophomore season, but an increase in production could see his draft stock move swiftly upwards. If he has a strong year, he could end up being a first round pick in 2018.

Apr 06, 2018 04:33 PM #153

Signs pointing to Doke leaving:
- Lawson brothers didn't come here to sit.
- Big Dave signed early. I don't think he plays still, but no way the staff told him he would be the 6th big.
- Not a lot of minutes for a lot of bodies.

I'm interested in how the roster ends up shaking out for sure. I still think we are the best team in the country depth wise next season. Could legit go 10 deep on the bench even without Doke.

I really think Lightfoot should take a Redshirt. Doke leaving would still give us 4 bigs, with the ability to go 4 guards if we ever needed to.

Apr 06, 2018 04:34 PM #154

@Blown I feel like we had been talking about it for awhile now. Always thought he was leaving.

Apr 06, 2018 04:34 PM #155

@Kcmatt7 You forgot about McCormack, bet Mitch red shirts

Apr 06, 2018 04:34 PM #156

I'm anxious to read what Jason King writes about whatever drama happened on this team about midway through the season as he has in past books. I bet a lot of it centered on Vick & Newman.

Apr 06, 2018 04:34 PM #157

@Blown He joins an esteemed group White, Greene, Bragg, Tharpe, Adams -- missing any recent nudges out the door?

Apr 06, 2018 04:35 PM #158

@Kcmatt7 right, I agree we had been. So not surprised. Just think it is strange. Is his stock really that high?

Apr 06, 2018 04:36 PM #159

@HighEliteMajor I feel like those were Problem kids though, right? With behavioral issues. Did Vick have that? At least outwardly...?

EDIT: White wasn't a problem child, just never got any PT so that one made more sense.

Apr 06, 2018 04:37 PM #160

@kjayhawks Didn't forget about him. Just don't think he will play basically at all next season. He is a project. Looks like he has cinder-blocks tied to his feet right now.

Apr 06, 2018 04:39 PM #161

@Blown Vick was at the center of the incident with Josh Jackson and Mackenzie Calvert last year. That's by far his most high profile incident, but I've rumors of several other smaller incidents involving Vick as well.

Apr 06, 2018 04:40 PM #162

@Blown No his stock isn't high. And he was absolutely forced out. Just wasn't ever tough enough to be successful under Self.

To top things off though, Vick had that dorm incident. And was involved in the incident at the country club.

He also just doesn't seem like a good fit for next year's club. You don't want his personality hanging around your new group if you think he is a potential cancer.

Apr 06, 2018 04:43 PM #163

@Kcmatt7 I was not aware of those things, and had forgotten he was involved in the Calvert incident. (Not sure how I forgot that). So he wasn't pushed out after sophomore year because we were desperate for depth...but not so much going into next year. I get it.

LaLa sure painting the picture it was 100% Her and LV call!

Apr 06, 2018 04:49 PM #164

Blown said:

This is one of the strangest announcements I can recall. Maybe, ever. This has the signs of being pushed/prodded out all over it.

I caught some flack (don't remember how much here vs other boards) for suggesting Vick was on the Tharpe/Greene I-420 out of town...

Apr 06, 2018 04:51 PM #165

HighEliteMajor said:

@Blown He joins an esteemed group White, Greene, Bragg, Tharpe, Adams -- missing any recent nudges out the door?

White was a helicopter dad situation. He didn't play a lot early, but he wasn't forced out.

Selden was nudged a bit, worked out well for all parties there.

Apr 06, 2018 04:52 PM #166

Blown said:

Is his stock really that high?

No. He probably won't be playing pro ball in North America.

Apr 06, 2018 04:52 PM #167

@BShark I'm sure you've commented on it somewhere, but I'm limited on time today....work...ugh, Does this mean you feel Langford will come? You seem to be in tune with this stuff.

Apr 06, 2018 04:53 PM #168

I think Bill is honest with the guys too. Vick would have to play better than he is even capable of in Bill's system to raise his stock next season. Would have to play at a level he isn't capable of for an entire season. So go now while you still have "potential."

Apr 06, 2018 04:55 PM #169

Kcmatt7 said:

Signs pointing to Doke leaving:
- Lawson brothers didn't come here to sit.
- Big Dave signed early. I don't think he plays still, but no way the staff told him he would be the 6th big.
- Not a lot of minutes for a lot of bodies.

I'm interested in how the roster ends up shaking out for sure. I still think we are the best team in the country depth wise next season. Could legit go 10 deep on the bench even without Doke.

I really think Lightfoot should take a Redshirt. Doke leaving would still give us 4 bigs, with the ability to go 4 guards if we ever needed to.

Well said. A big key is that two bigs were signed early. Silvio at one point was top 5 in the class, and McCormack is a McDAA. We all speculated at the beginning of the early recruiting period that early big signings would be an indicator towards which way Udoka was leaning.

I don't think players of that caliber are signing on to be possibly the 5th big and likely the 4th. No doubt Udoka wants to get his mom permanently out of Africa. His plan was always two years too, I can see him sticking too it.

Apr 06, 2018 04:56 PM #170

Kcmatt7 said:

@Blown No his stock isn't high. And he was absolutely forced out. Just wasn't ever tough enough to be successful under Self.

To top things off though, Vick had that dorm incident. And was involved in the incident at the country club.

He also just doesn't seem like a good fit for next year's club. You don't want his personality hanging around your new group if you think he is a potential cancer.

Yeah look no further than the quotes from Self. Very clear force out imo.

Apr 06, 2018 04:57 PM #171

Kcmatt7 said:

I think Bill is honest with the guys too. Vick would have to play better than he is even capable of in Bill's system to raise his stock next season. Would have to play at a level he isn't capable of for an entire season. So go now while you still have "potential."

Even if Vick came back there was a chance he would come off the bench. This just seems best for everyone involved.

To me it was abundantly clear that Vick and Newman were for sure gone when Agbaji signed. Agbaji is a nice player but you don't take him w/o knowing there is room for Romeo.

Apr 06, 2018 05:09 PM #172

@Kcmatt7 I would be shocked if he doesnt play ahead of Mitch, like De Sousa did late in the season. He already looks bigger, stronger and more athletic.

Apr 06, 2018 05:11 PM #173

kjayhawks said:

@Kcmatt7 I would be shocked if he doesnt play ahead of Mitch, like De Sousa did late in the season. He already looks bigger, stronger and more athletic.

McCormack?

Mitch will be the last big on the roster imo.

Apr 06, 2018 05:23 PM #174

FWIW, Sam Vecenie told me to expect Doke to declare without an agent and go through the process.

Apr 06, 2018 06:04 PM #175

FarmerJayhawk said:

FWIW, Sam Vecenie told me to expect Doke to declare without an agent and go through the process.

I'm just wondering what process that's going to be for him. Do you see him a combine invite.. What interest, if any, is an NBA team going to show him. I'm all for him declaring and getting feedback. I just assume the feedback should be a swift process for him. And for the record I've always thought he was leaving regardless

Apr 06, 2018 06:08 PM #176

@kjayhawks to me, he looks heavy and slow and not ready. He was absolutely destroyed by Carey this year. He also doesn’t seem like a good guy to play next to De Sousa. Mitch can at least spread the floor.

Apr 06, 2018 06:09 PM #177

@Kcmatt7 Whether Mitch or Dave are the 4th or 5th big KU is in a pretty damn good spot.

Apr 06, 2018 06:28 PM #178

HighEliteMajor said:

@BShark Man, that is telling .. particularly since he's not hiring an agent in the announcement.

So, Romeo waited to announce, and if he picks Vandy or Indiana, why did he wait?

I'm in Ohio and one theory on it is he isnt going to IU and didnt want to hear about it his whole Sr season from the fans.

Apr 06, 2018 06:29 PM #179

Interesting that Vick has said that he wont hire an agent, wonder if he would try to be a grad transfer elsewhere. don't know why a guy wouldn't hire one otherwise, having a good agent could help you go over seas aswell.

Apr 06, 2018 07:12 PM #180

kjayhawks said:

Interesting that Vick has said that he wont hire an agent, wonder if he would try to be a grad transfer elsewhere. don't know why a guy wouldn't hire one otherwise, having a good agent could help you go over seas aswell.

Vicks mom said they would get around to hiring one

Apr 06, 2018 07:21 PM #181

Knox declaring w/ agent.

Apr 06, 2018 07:36 PM #182

@BShark No brainer. Would be dumb to do otherwise imo.

Apr 06, 2018 07:37 PM #183

Kcmatt7 said:

@BShark No brainer. Would be dumb to do otherwise imo.

Still laughing at all the UK hillbillies that believed he was truly "torn" on the decision.

His dad was looking into agents when he was still in HS per Duke insiders.

Apr 06, 2018 07:40 PM #184

@BShark That was a joke. No doubt in my mind he was leaving. I expect SGA to announce with an agent within the week.

Apr 06, 2018 07:41 PM #185

@Kcmatt7 Rupp Rafter's exploded over this tweet

Apr 06, 2018 07:43 PM #186

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Jon Rothstein
ā€Verified account @JonRothstein

Kentucky's Shai Gilgeous-Alexander will announce his plans for next season early next week in Lexington, per a source. #BBN

Apr 06, 2018 08:25 PM #187

I fully expect UK to lose at least one more player besides Knox, Diallo and SGA.

If Hagans commits and reclassifies, you have to think that Green is being shown the door right? And Montgomery is showing someone else the door imo.

Maybe Vanderbilt leaves. Oh. That one would give UK fans tears lol. That's fun just to think about haha

Apr 07, 2018 05:57 AM #188

Kcmatt7 said:

  • PG: Dotson - 32MPG : Moore - 8 MPG
  • SG: Grimes - 28 MPG: Garrett - 14 MPG
  • SF: Langford - 30 MPG: Garrett - 10 MPG
  • PF: Dedric - 30 MPG : Lightfoot/KJ - 10 MPG
  • C: Doke: 25 MPG : De Sousa - 15 MPG

I think it does look more and more likely Doke leaves... in which case, this is my thoughts:

  • PG: Dotson - 32MPG : Moore - 8 MPG
  • SG: Grimes - 28 MPG: Garrett - 14 MPG
  • SF: Langford - 30 MPG: Garrett - 10 MPG
  • PF: KJ - 22 MPG : Lightfoot - 10 MPG : De Sousa - 8 MPG
  • C: Dedric: 30 MPG : De Sousa - 10 MPG

I really like the starting group with KJ and Dedric. I think that let's us stretch the floor and play fluently on offense, while still be really long on the defensive end.

I am not sure the NCAA will allow 202 minutes from all players, they draw the line at 200...except for overtime. :smile:

Take 2 minutes away from Garret and you are gold.

Apr 07, 2018 05:24 PM #189

@mayjay Oh the Cookie man - - do you remember Cookie Mans debut? - -I do 10-10 from the field quite the debut

Apr 07, 2018 05:26 PM #190

@nuleafjhawk Norm Cook was a 6'8 guy had a good career If I remember right out of the state of Illinois - nick name of Cookie man - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Apr 07, 2018 05:27 PM #191

@Hawk8086 I hadn't heard or don't remember. - What happened to Norm? ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Apr 07, 2018 05:33 PM #192

Man Jontay Porter declaring for the NBA? - -am I missing something? - I do not think for sure he is a one and done - -I don't get it -where am I wrong? - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Apr 07, 2018 05:54 PM #193

I hope Romeo becomes a Jayhawk. We have a definite hole that needs to be filled now.

Apr 07, 2018 06:19 PM #194

@jayballer73 Jontay will be a first round pick. Smart of him to get out of Methzoo.

Apr 07, 2018 06:24 PM #195

@jayballer73 I don't think he hired an agent.

Apr 07, 2018 06:50 PM #196

jayballer73 said:

@Hawk8086 I hadn't heard or don't remember. - What happened to Norm? ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Very Tragic. Diagnosed with mental illness, I think, while still playing for the Celtics. In and out of facilities. Spent time wandering the streets hearing voices. Estranged from his son who played for Ilini and the Lakers. He died a few years back.

Apr 07, 2018 06:58 PM #197

@BShark I'm not seein 1st round for him lots of really good plyers - I think better them him for 1st round

Apr 07, 2018 07:09 PM #198

@jayballer73 2018
Mock: 24
Big Board: 27

That was just the first thing I found googling too.

Apr 07, 2018 07:10 PM #199

16th on this one

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/2018-nba-mock-draft.html ↗

Apr 07, 2018 07:11 PM #200

Jontay is a great pick for a team in the late 1st. He is a good passing, rebounding and shooting 4 man that should fit well in the NBA.

Apr 07, 2018 07:50 PM #201

@Hawk8086 OH MAN - -I hadn't heard anything about that.- that's to bad. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Apr 07, 2018 09:57 PM #202

@BShark That mock draft also has the first KU guy being Svi at #58. Has Devonte on the bubble. No Malik, but it was produced April 3, so probably not updated for declarers this week.

Sidenote: 2 week college attendee Mitchell Robinson at #18.

Apr 08, 2018 01:17 PM #203

@jayballer73

Jontay is projected first round in all the mock drafts I have seen. He reclassified to play with his brother but now that he is off to the NBA no sense waiting since his stock would improve only marginally staying one additional year.

Apr 08, 2018 03:41 PM #204

@JayHawkFanToo If at all. He really might as well start getting paid.

Apr 09, 2018 01:41 PM #205

LOL @ SGA announcing on sports center. Get over yourself.

Apr 09, 2018 01:49 PM #206

@BShark

You gotta respect Wiggins the way he handled his announcement.

Apr 09, 2018 01:49 PM #207

@BShark OMG - -this stuff is just getting totally out of hand

Apr 09, 2018 04:22 PM #208

Don't think it was posted, but Trent declared. Not a surprise. My biggest surprise is that he is going to be a first round pick. Really underwhelmed by him the entire season.

Apr 09, 2018 04:29 PM #209

Kcmatt7 said:

Don't think it was posted, but Trent declared. Not a surprise. My biggest surprise is that he is going to be a first round pick. Really underwhelmed by him the entire season.

You see him in the first round? I haven't many projecting that. Maybe teams will look at him for shooting..

Apr 09, 2018 04:31 PM #210

@BeddieKU23 Really weird. I've seen him as high as 16 and as low as going undrafted. Probably ends up borderline 1st. Definitely worth a 2nd round pick imo.

Apr 09, 2018 04:39 PM #211

@Kcmatt7

Definitely he'll get drafted. He was pretty deadly in stretches of the season but it was easy for him to get lost on that Starting 5. Good thing he had a bad game against KU

Apr 09, 2018 04:56 PM #212

Trent has ideal size for an NBA wing. He can shoot it (over 40% from three, over 85% from the FT line), so the only hurdle is improving his defense to make him an impact 3 and D wing. No surprise he's heading to the NBA. His role in the NBA really won't change much from his role at Duke. He's not a lottery pick, but he could help a playoff team as soon as next season. He's a perfect late first round pick for an established team.

Apr 09, 2018 05:55 PM #213

Has Wendall Carter declared yet?

Apr 09, 2018 07:46 PM #214

@jayballer73

Not yet, but I can't imagine he would return to Durham. I can't find a date for his announcement.

Apr 10, 2018 11:54 AM #215

One piece gone from Nova. Mikal Bridges declares. I see him being really good at the next level.

Apr 10, 2018 12:39 PM #216

Finally. Brunson and Spellman next please.

Apr 10, 2018 12:40 PM #217

@BeddieKU23 I think it's a pretty good bet Brunson will declare also. Nothing left for him to prove/gain at the College level. Played very big roles in two NCAA Championships - - John Wooden POY ya, think for sure he will declare

Apr 10, 2018 12:47 PM #218

It wouldn't shock me if Doke announced either way at the banquet tonight.

Apr 10, 2018 12:47 PM #219

@jayballer73

Definitely. He's graduating this spring. He's a rare bird. His dad pushed him so hard to be what he is today.

Apr 10, 2018 12:49 PM #220

I think Brunson is one of the Top 15 prospects in this draft. And I see him bottom first round in mocks. Laughing at DeAnthony Melton being projected over him. Kid didn't even play basketball last year. Mitchell Robinson too. Funny stuff

Apr 10, 2018 12:59 PM #221

@BShark Just really would be a huge mistake if he declared right now , yet we are talking about an 18 yr old- - he has so much work to do. Still there would be some NBA team willing to take that chance of his size alone probably - -he is Sooooo not reaqdy. --

Apr 10, 2018 01:14 PM #222

I don't think Doke would be drafted if he goes.

Apr 10, 2018 01:26 PM #223

He could get a G-League 2 way contract.. I think he's going to explore every avenue possible. I'll be surprised if he doesn't and I'll welcome his return

Apr 10, 2018 03:27 PM #224

@BeddieKU23

Is the perfect storm at Villanova coming to an end?

Apr 10, 2018 03:33 PM #225

@JayHawkFanToo I won't consider it over until Wright proves it's over. Had they not landed Quinerley, I'd have some concerns. But they should be able to keep on keeping on it looks like.

If Spellman leaves, I do think it will be hard for them to be a top 5 team. I just don't think he is going anywhere.

Apr 10, 2018 06:13 PM #226

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BeddieKU23

Is the perfect storm at Villanova coming to an end?

I hope so

Apr 10, 2018 06:27 PM #227

jayballer73 said:

Has Wendall Carter declared yet?

Been in Atlanta trying to nail down an Agent. Only a matter of time.

Apr 10, 2018 06:34 PM #228

I'd be really surprised if Doke even got a combine invite if he declares. If he does, it's probably to gauge overseas options as much as anything.

Apr 10, 2018 07:01 PM #229

I will add there's a chance that the NCAA allows undrafted players to return to school this year. It might be in Sec. Rice's report to the NCAA that's due for release around the end of the month. In that case, I think Doke really should return, but have no problem with him testing and even going through the draft.

Apr 10, 2018 07:07 PM #230

FarmerJayhawk said:

I will add there's a chance that the NCAA allows undrafted players to return to school this year. It might be in Sec. Rice's report to the NCAA that's due for release around the end of the month. In that case, I think Doke really should return, but have no problem with him testing and even going through the draft.

That would be a great change

Apr 10, 2018 07:13 PM #231

Agreed. It wasn’t that long ago that it was actually the case. Randolph Morris went undrafted once and returned to Kentucky.

Apr 11, 2018 12:50 AM #232

The last mock draft by Spts Illus has Devonte 37, Malik 56, and Svi 68.

Apr 11, 2018 01:26 PM #233

Brunson’s done will hire an agent.

Apr 11, 2018 01:29 PM #234

dylans said:

Brunson’s done will hire an agent.

This pleases me

Apr 11, 2018 01:56 PM #235

dylans said:

Brunson’s done will hire an agent.

Good

Apr 12, 2018 02:24 AM #236

dylans said:

Brunson’s done will hire an agent.

Yeah he was never coming back. Quinerly wasn’t coming to come off the bench.

Apr 12, 2018 11:25 AM #237

Taken from another board in regards to Doke

I asked Dok if he was returning (at the banquet) and he put a big grin on his face and finally said ā€œsure.ā€ Had a word with one of the assistants coaches and his comment was 60-40 staying.

Apr 12, 2018 02:20 PM #238

@BeddieKU23

Having Doke back should make for an interesting rotation. I think this means McCormack is the odd man out from a PT standpoint because he and Doke play the same type of role and they can't be on the floor together against most teams. It would be difficult to play Doke and De Sousa together as it is. Dedric needs 25-28 mpg, Doke probably needs 22-25. De Sousa can play 15 and Lightfoot can play some. When we go small, KJ can play the 4. When we go big, KJ slides to the 3. But I just don't see where McCormack finds minutes if Doke returns unless he, Doke and De Sousa somehow split roughly 50 minutes between the three of them. That would be a tough rotation to keep together. Maybe redshirt someone?

Apr 12, 2018 02:36 PM #239

@justanotherfan

Interesting conundrum for Doke. At this time he is a one dimensional player and the dimension being one that the NBA is getting away from. He needs to stay and diversify his game, particularly improve rebounding and develop a midrange shot but to do this he needs playing time and likely would need assurances from the staff he will get playing time; I am not sure that assurance is a sure thing at this time.

Apr 12, 2018 02:45 PM #240

@JayHawkFanToo

Agreed. I just don't see how Doke is going to develop some of those things at KU. Is Bill Self really going to take Doke out of the post to help him develop his face up game? The rebounding, I absolutely see Doke being able to develop. But diversifying his offensive game likely won't happen at KU. I think that's where the 40 part of the 60/40 is coming from. Doke understands he needs to develop, but breaking from his one dimensional game requires a significant change in his role - a change I am not sure KU will make because its not worth it from KU's perspective to have Doke go from shooting 77% from the field to 60% because he's taking 12 footers all of a sudden.

Apr 13, 2018 06:25 PM #241

And Hamidou Diallo is gone. UK's "stacked" roster continuing to fall apart piece by piece. Hearing PJ is leaning towards staying in the draft now. Green transfer rumors are still abundant as well.

Apr 13, 2018 06:26 PM #242

Kcmatt7 said:

And Hamidou Diallo is gone. UK's "stacked" roster continuing to fall apart piece by piece. Hearing PJ is leaning towards staying in the draft now. Green transfer rumors are still abundant as well.

Tyrese Maxey is going to reclass to 2018 and commit to UK.

So young again!

Apr 13, 2018 06:27 PM #243

@BShark Have you ever seen a team with so many PGs? lol.

Apr 13, 2018 06:28 PM #244

Herro isn't going to be happy no way no how. Green has to be so butthurt right now.

Apr 13, 2018 06:29 PM #245

Kcmatt7 said:

@BShark Have you ever seen a team with so many PGs? lol.

UK has 3 5 PG and Duke has 3 5 wings. Maybe they should do a trade.

Apr 13, 2018 06:29 PM #246

Kcmatt7 said:

Herro isn't going to be happy no way no how. Green has to be so butthurt right now.

You'd think these kids know what they are signing up for. Herro isn't going to play now LOL.

Apr 13, 2018 06:29 PM #247

@BShark Is the Maxey thing official?

Apr 13, 2018 06:29 PM #248

Kcmatt7 said:

@BShark Is the Maxey thing official?

I mean it's happening. SMU fired his dad.

Apr 13, 2018 06:30 PM #249

But it's not official yet.

Apr 13, 2018 06:30 PM #250

@BShark I swear Cal has some military grade cologne or something that puts people in a trans and they believe everything he says.

Apr 13, 2018 06:32 PM #251

@Kcmatt7 The fan base too. They went from upset to declaring 40-0 again.

Apr 13, 2018 06:55 PM #252

@BShark Lol right? That has me dead! I look at that team and all I can see is 10 losses. Chris Weber and Jalen Rose aren't walking through that door :joy:

Apr 13, 2018 06:56 PM #253

@Kcmatt7 18 class is weak too. Anyone counting on all players from it is in for major disappointment. Maxey and Hagans are easily better than Quickley.

Like maybe Quickley should have considered KU. At least Self wouldn't recruit over him in the SAME CLASS.

Apr 13, 2018 06:57 PM #254

OMG WHAT IF QUICKLEY IS THE MYSTERY PLAYER.

pounds 12 beers, runs around naked, passes out

(all fiction no malice)

Apr 13, 2018 07:00 PM #255

@BShark Lol Kentucky fans would have a Civil War if that happened.

Apr 13, 2018 07:01 PM #256

@Kcmatt7 Yeah I mean there is no way, he legit loves UK.

Apr 13, 2018 07:09 PM #257

@BShark Oh he's not going anywhere. But, Cal 100% told everyone of these kids they would come in and start or be the first guy off of the bench and play 25 mpg. That isn't going to happen at this point, so someone is going to be pissed.

Apr 13, 2018 07:36 PM #258

Today is basically the last day to ask for feedback without officially declaring. A week from today is basically the deadline to declare. At least we should have an answer on Doke in the next week. Langford decision is in 2 and a half weeks. By then, I hope we basically have our roster figured out.

Apr 13, 2018 07:41 PM #259

@Kcmatt7 Sure seems like Doke will stick around.

Apr 13, 2018 07:44 PM #260

@BShark I sure hope so.

Apr 13, 2018 07:45 PM #261

@Kcmatt7 Yeah, seems like more of a need with the Silvio situation too. This has to be so hard for Doke. He obviously isn't ready for the NBA but I'm sure he really wants to start getting paid so he can get his mom out of Africa.

Apr 13, 2018 07:50 PM #262

@BShark I will 100% respect his decision to leave if that's what he chooses.

I wish he could talk to an agent about it and see what he would likely get paid if he went to play overseas.

Apr 14, 2018 06:34 PM #263

Maxey isn’t going to reclassify. UK prefers him in 2019 to replace Hagans and/or Quickley. Probably means Green is sticking around.

The Doke situation is super quiet. Nobody is talking. I’m thinking he stays b

Apr 14, 2018 06:40 PM #264

It would be very helpful to Doke if he could get some feedback not just from the NBA, but from teams overseas. He could probably make a decent amount playing overseas at his size. Not millions, but hundreds of thousands. It is a bit difficult that he cannot consult with an agent about those options without forfeiting his eligibility, as that would be very helpful in his decision making. Most NBA folks aren't connected enough with the international basketball scene to give quality advice on what other leagues may be interested in with a player like Doke. Doke may be even more valuable overseas because of the fact that he isn't a guy likely to be poached by the NBA in a few years.

Apr 14, 2018 06:41 PM #265

@nuleafjhawk Man! How can you be mad at Paul?? One of the best all time Jayhawks. Period. He went to the League and was a multi time All Star. He never forgot KU and his roots there. I could go on and on here. Paul will always be a Jayhawk. That 97 team he was on was so dominant a case could be made that it was the best team KU fielded ever in its history. They ran into some terrible luck against AZ, shoulda gotten an NC that year. That's the way the ball bounces sometimes tho. Kind of like how Duke's shot rimmed out at the last second and we go to the Final Four this year in an unprecedented run.

Apr 14, 2018 11:29 PM #266

@justanotherfan

The coaching staf has great connection with the pro scouts and NBA teams and they get the information and relay it to the player and advise him on whether to go or stay. Markieff has not really planned on leaving with Marcus but the staff told him he would be a lottery pick and off he went.

So, while an agent can contact teams and get specific offers, the coaching staff can get him pretty good information about the overall interest by pro teams.

Apr 15, 2018 01:57 AM #267

@JayHawkFanToo

For NBA stuff, that is absolutely true, but Doke's best opportunities probably lie overseas. Without connections to the international agents and scouts, Doke isn't getting all of the best advice for his unique situation.

Apr 15, 2018 05:20 AM #268

@justanotherfan

Times have changed. There are many scouting agencies like this one ↗ that scout American and International players for NBA and overseas teams and they are in contact with American college programs scouting players for potential international teams. KU staff has information not only on NBA but also international potential destinations; this is part of the service they sell to prospects parents, the ability to provide complete scouting reports including overseas opportunities.

Apr 15, 2018 12:41 PM #269

@Lulufulu One thing you probably need to know about me bro (or sis) - I use hyperbole and sarcasm a lot. Almost exclusively.

Love Paul. Would have loved him a tiny bit more if he had stayed one more year. No big deal.

Apr 16, 2018 07:30 PM #270

Wendell Carter breaks his momma's heart. NBA with Agent. Duke's entire starting 5 gone

Apr 16, 2018 07:30 PM #271

Wagner from Michigan to no surprise declares with Agent

Apr 16, 2018 07:31 PM #272

@BeddieKU23 that team has less than no depth now.

Apr 16, 2018 07:32 PM #273

Kcmatt7 said:

@BeddieKU23 that team has less than no depth now.

Don't tell Duke fans that, they are loaded beyond comprehension

Apr 16, 2018 07:39 PM #274

@BeddieKU23 Lol I feel another zone coming.

Apr 16, 2018 07:40 PM #275

Wagner and Carter both sure took awhile. Not sure what the wait was for lol.

Apr 16, 2018 07:42 PM #276

Has Duke replaced UK as the preferred destination of OADs?

Apr 16, 2018 07:42 PM #277

BShark said:

Wagner and Carter both sure took awhile. Not sure what the wait was for lol.

Same with the Kentucky kids who haven't made up their mind

Apr 16, 2018 07:43 PM #278

JayHawkFanToo said:

Has Duke replaced UK as the preferred destination of OADs?

Definitely. Or running side by side for it. Hasn't helped them win titles the past few

Apr 16, 2018 07:45 PM #279

I am 100% ok with UK and Duke taking OADs and having absolutely no depth or experience to go with it. Go ahead and mark them down for an elite 8 flameout.

Apr 16, 2018 07:58 PM #280

@Kcmatt7

In the last 15 years UConn has 3 titles, UNC has 3 titles, Duke has 2 titles, one gifted to them by the refs and KU and KU have 1 tiltle each.

Considering the huge talent gap between UK and Duke versus the rest of the field, both programs have underachieved big time.

Apr 16, 2018 09:27 PM #281

Winning the national championship is legitimately difficult.

It takes a perfect blend of players, combined with the right amount of luck and talent to get it all done.

Even during this OAD era, there have never been more than four teams with enough overall OAD talent to even be considered a national title contender in a given year. Given that, having two OAD national champions is pretty good when you would guess that there are probably six or seven total teams with legitimate national title aspirations each year.

Up until Calipari arrived at UK, there really weren't many OAD dominated teams. I don't count Derrick Rose at Memphis because he was the lone OAD on that team, or Durant at Texas (or Beasley at KSU) because again, they didn't really have that many actual OADs around them. If you want, you can count Ohio State in 2007 with Greg Oden, Mike Conley and Daequan Cook. However, most only projected Oden as an OAD, with Conley and Cook expected to stay multiple years.

If we count Ohio State 2007, here are the OAD dominated teams in the OAD era:

Ohio State 2007 (Conley ranks too low in most recruiting sites to make this team qualify), UNC 2007, Kentucky 2010, Kentucky 2012, Kentucky 2013, Kentucky 2014, Kansas 2014, Duke 2015, Kentucky 2015, Duke 2017, Kentucky 2017, Duke 2018, Kentucky 2018. To be considered OAD dominated, you have to have at least three players ranked in the top 15, or four freshman ranked in the top 20 in the class. That eliminates teams with one high ranked recruit surrounded by a bunch of other top 100 players (LSU with Ben Simmons, Mizzou last year, Beasley at KSU, Durant at Texas, etc.).

Kentucky 2012 and Duke 2015 won titles. Kentucky 2014 and Ohio State 2007 were national runners up. Kentucky 2015 went to the Final Four. UNC 2007, Kentucky 2010 and Duke 2018 went to the Elite Eight. Kentucky 2018 went to the Sweet 16. Kansas 2014 and Duke 2017 lost in the Round of 32. Kentucky 2013 missed the tournament.

What's really fascinating about these squads is that Kentucky 2013 was by far the weakest of the group. Poythress and Goodwin were ranked 13 and 15 in their class. Noel got hurt. If you take away Noel, that team doesn't qualify. Same story with Kansas 2014. Take away Embiid and it's just Wiggins and Selden. That means they aren't really an OAD dominated team. Duke 2017 had Giles and Bolden both miss big chunks of the season with injury or illness. Take away those two and again, that's not an OAD team.

Obviously, that doesn't take away the fact that those teams underachieved, but when you count it up, there have really only been about a dozen true OAD teams. Most years, it's one or maybe two freshmen on a squad together without a lot of other help. If you don't have three starter quality freshmen, it's hard to say you're an OAD team.

It appears from this that if you can land three or more top 15 recruits and keep them all healthy, your chances of making a deep tournament run are almost assured.

Edit: The only OAD squad for 2019 is Duke (for now). Kentucky only has three top 20 recruits, and only one top 15 recruit. KU may have two top 15 recruits, but they don't have any other top 20 guys. Oregon only has two top 15 recruits. If Langford goes to Vandy, they actually become an OAD squad (Garland and Shittu are both top 15 players) so adding Langford would legitimately change Vandy's ceiling.

Apr 17, 2018 10:40 AM #282

Hamidou Diallo declares for draft with Agent.

Nojel Eastern of Purdue without Agent.

Apr 17, 2018 12:33 PM #283

BeddieKU23 said:

Nojel Eastern of Purdue without Agent.

2.9 PPG....

Apr 17, 2018 12:55 PM #284

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

Nojel Eastern of Purdue without Agent.

2.9 PPG....

I was surprised. Eastern will be one of their best players this year. Figuring he's banking on getting some feedback and building for next year.

Apr 18, 2018 11:17 AM #285

Zhaire Smith stays in the draft. Smart decision. Likely a Top 20 pick

Huge loss for the Big-12 and Texas Tech.

Apr 18, 2018 11:24 AM #286

Omari Spellman declares without an Agent (Smart Move).

Chris Silva of South Carolina, no Agent

Danny Manning loses his starting C, Doral Moore who will stay in the draft. Another huge loss for him.

Apr 18, 2018 12:02 PM #287

BeddieKU23 said:

Zhaire Smith stays in the draft. Smart decision. Likely a Top 20 pick

Huge loss for the Big-12 and Texas Tech.

Figured, but will be interesting to see how Beard does w/o Evans and Smith.

Apr 18, 2018 12:52 PM #288

Danny will be lucky to make it through this season. And I find it hard to disagree. I have yet to see any improvement.

Apr 18, 2018 01:10 PM #289

@Kcmatt7 43% win rate is rough.

Danny has some dudes coming in. I think they actually had to have some guys leave early to make room. Or they knew beforehand hence loading up.

Crawford, Brown, Hoard, Mucius and a warm body at C should be able to make the tournament. Hopefully for him they can do that.

Apr 18, 2018 02:56 PM #290

@BShark

There's a ton of pressure on him next year, though. He's had one winning record in four years at Wake, and that year his winning record was only good enough to make the first four of the NCAA tournament. He hasn't finished better than 10th in the ACC. He needs to finish in the top half of the league and make the tournament to save his job. Going 9-9 in the league probably won't be enough to keep his job at this point.

Apr 18, 2018 05:52 PM #291

@BShark Mucus is nothing to sneeze at. I heard he's a pretty liquid player, but a little green around the edges.

Apr 18, 2018 05:55 PM #292

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

Zhaire Smith stays in the draft. Smart decision. Likely a Top 20 pick

Huge loss for the Big-12 and Texas Tech.

Figured, but will be interesting to see how Beard does w/o Evans and Smith.

He’s got Moore and DeShawn Corprew (one time plan B for Josh Jackson) coming in, so that’ll help. But definitely not as talented.

Apr 18, 2018 06:52 PM #293

BeddieKU23 said:

Zhaire Smith stays in the draft. Smart decision. Likely a Top 20 pick

Huge loss for the Big-12 and Texas Tech.

Yes a huge loss.........but he was a pain in the neck..a little relieved that I won't have to watch him make some highlight plays against us.

Apr 18, 2018 07:20 PM #294

Read Gabriel out of Kentucky declared but not hiring Agent - I think he comes back, but if he doesn't they have lost a lot. - from reading boards this is one I don't think this is one they were counting on. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Apr 18, 2018 07:28 PM #295

jayballer73 said:

Read Gabriel out of Kentucky declared but not hiring Agent - I think he comes back, but if he doesn't they have lost a lot. - from reading boards this is one I don't think this is one they were counting on. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

He's probably going to stay gone. Only so many guys can get minutes and the squid loaded up!

Apr 18, 2018 07:34 PM #296

I would be shocked to see him come back.

Apr 18, 2018 07:36 PM #297

Kcmatt7 said:

I would be shocked to see him come back.

You called all this.

Kentucky fans being shocked when kids leave their OAD factory early is still the funniest damn thing.

Apr 18, 2018 07:41 PM #298

@BShark His post basically said he was gone.

Apr 18, 2018 07:44 PM #299

Kcmatt7 said:

@BShark His post basically said he was gone.

Oh okay I didn't check. That means if PJ stays in the draft too they have 8 scholarship players. This also assumes Green doesn't leave. 9 w/ Hagans.

Poor Cal just can't catch a break!

Apr 18, 2018 07:46 PM #300

At least that was how I read it.

Lol I would laugh if PJ left. There fans are saying take grad transfers, but who would want to come play at UK there last year and watch a bunch of freshmen lose 11 games? Sounds miserable.

Poor poor Cal. Hope he lands Maxey and Green bounces. I honestly think Lexington will go to war lol.

Apr 18, 2018 08:00 PM #301

Matt tait is saying doke to announce tomm or so. Hearing declare without agent..

Apr 18, 2018 08:06 PM #302

BeddieKU23 said:

Hearing declare without agent..

Always the plan.

Apr 18, 2018 08:50 PM #303

I think he’ll be back. He won’t get a combine invite so someone is going to have to take a flier

Apr 18, 2018 08:52 PM #304

I feel like he will get invited. He has to be one of the 60 most intriguing prospects right?

Apr 18, 2018 08:54 PM #305

There are just so many guys when you factor in the International players as well. I just don't think he will get a invite this year. 60 sounds like a lot, but it really isn't when you factor in all of the draft eligible players.

Apr 18, 2018 08:55 PM #306

He could easily come back but I don't think it's a question of NBA or not. There are many other good pro basketball leagues that pay well.

Apr 18, 2018 09:01 PM #307

Someone do me a favor, ( assuming Silvio stays and is cleared & Doke stays ) what does our post rotation look like next season?

I realize that's a lot of IFs.
Personally I hope Silvio gets cleared and can play ball for us. I kind of believe his caretaker, whoever, that they didn't take any money from that Adidas agent guy.

Apr 18, 2018 09:03 PM #308

I just find it hard to believe a legit footer with his athleticism wouldn't get invited. I mean at least take a look and see if he is such a freak he may actually be worth the investment.

Apr 18, 2018 09:05 PM #309

@Lulufulu There is a ton of depth. Dedric will start at the 4 and Doke at the 5. Then bigs coming off the bench you have DeSosa, Big Dave, KJ Lawson, and Mitch.

Apr 18, 2018 09:06 PM #310

It would be a challenge for Bill to keep everyone happy. Mitch in that situation might consider a RS.

Apr 18, 2018 09:08 PM #311

With Doke and Silvio AND another Wing I see it as:

  • Dedric - KJ
  • Doke - Silvio

With Doke and Silvio and No Wing I see it as:

  • Dedric - KJ - Silvio - Mitch
  • Doke - Silvio - Big Dave

Without Doke I see it as:

  • KJ - Silvio - Mitch
  • Dedric - Silvio - Big Dave

Without Silvio I see it as:

  • Dedric - KJ - Mitch
  • Doke - Big Dave

Without either I see it as:

  • KJ - Mitch - Garrett
  • Dedric - Big Dave

I am not worried about the post rotation. Worse case scenario, we lose both and we start 5 guys who can all shoot the 3.

Apr 18, 2018 09:10 PM #312

Lulufulu said:

Someone do me a favor, ( assuming Silvio stays and is cleared & Doke stays ) what does our post rotation look like next season?

I realize that's a lot of IFs.
Personally I hope Silvio gets cleared and can play ball for us. I kind of believe his caretaker, whoever, that they didn't take any money from that Adidas agent guy.

Sure. Dedric and Doke start. Dedric will play 30+ and Doke hopefully 25ish. Silvio will be the first off the bench and can play the 4 or 5. KJ can play some 4 as well depending on the matchup. Dave will be the 4th or 5th big. He and Mitch will play sparingly. I agree with @BShark in that Mitch may consider taking a RS. Being 4th on the depth chart at your position isn’t a recipe for PT.

Apr 18, 2018 09:11 PM #313

@BShark I personally really hope that Mitch does RS. I don't think he will play much at all next year and he could develop into something a couple years down the road.

Apr 18, 2018 09:15 PM #314

@Woodrow We deserve a really annoying white guy who is good for no physical reason other than he just plays harder. Like where is our Singler, Kelly, Hansbrough?

Mitch could become the most hated player in basketball!

But I do agree, it probably requires a redshirt to accomplish that. He might as well get a free 5th year paid for right?

Apr 18, 2018 09:17 PM #315

@Kcmatt7 Dave isn't shooting any threes imo.

Apr 18, 2018 09:17 PM #316

Woodrow said:

@BShark I personally really hope that Mitch does RS. I don't think he will play much at all next year and he could develop into something a couple years down the road.

I think it should only be in play if Doke and Silvio are around though. If not, I think Mitch would be a valuable contributor.

Apr 18, 2018 09:19 PM #317

@BShark I'd just say screw it and start Dedric at the 5 and KJ at the 4 if we lost both.

Dedric has an 8'11 standing reach. He could literally guard anyone.

Apr 18, 2018 09:21 PM #318

Kcmatt7 said:

@BShark I'd just say screw it and start Dedric at the 5 and KJ at the 4 if we lost both.

Dedric has an 8'11 standing reach. He could literally guard anyone.

The only situation where I wouldn't start Dedric and KJ is if Doke is back.

Apr 18, 2018 09:22 PM #319

@BShark I would be fine with that.

Apr 18, 2018 09:32 PM #320

@Kcmatt7 Yeah I mean KJ will be in his 4th year out of HS, that will definitely be a factor. Plus he is pretty good in general. Versatile defender, very good rebounder.

Even if Silvio is able to play which I doubt he would be better coming off the bench imo.

Apr 18, 2018 10:16 PM #321

Lulufulu said:

Someone do me a favor, ( assuming Silvio stays and is cleared & Doke stays ) what does our post rotation look like next season?

I realize that's a lot of IFs.
Personally I hope Silvio gets cleared and can play ball for us. I kind of believe his caretaker, whoever, that they didn't take any money from that Adidas agent guy.

Like you said - - IF- I've talked to several friends - so many combinations if it all works out. - You could see Doke starting at the 5 with McCormack backing him - -And Silvio backing Dedric at the 4 - - plus Silvio playing some 5. - - If we get Romeo - -we could see Romeo at the 3 with KJ backing him. -Or possibly if Mitch for some reason wouldn't red shirt - You could see Doke & McCormack- - - and then Mitch possibly backing them at the 5--plus backing Dedric and Silvio at the 4 - -Play Romeo and KJ at the 3 -All kinds of possibilities. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Apr 19, 2018 01:06 AM #322

What is the scoop on Doke?

Apr 19, 2018 01:11 AM #323

@Blown Matt Tait said late this afternoon that Doke would be making a decision quite possibly as early as tomorrow, and said nothing has changed feels like Doke will test the waters without an agent. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

Apr 19, 2018 01:52 AM #324

Blown said:

What is the scoop on Doke?

Chances are he’s back unless he gets a guarantee to get drafted and a good shot at making a NBA roster.

Apr 19, 2018 10:33 AM #325

Brian Bowen declares for the draft but wants to play at South Carolina. These two things don't match.

Apr 19, 2018 10:35 AM #326

Graham, a 6-foot-2 point guard from Raleigh, N.C., on Wednesday signed with CAA (Creative Arts Agency), which has U.S. offices in Los Angeles, Atlanta, Chicago, New York, Moorestown, N.J., and Jacksonville Beach, Fla.

Former KU standout Joel Embiid is represented by CAA, as well as Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Paul George, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Tony Parker and others.

Mykhailiuk re-tweeted a Twitter posting by SIG (Sports International Group), which revealed it had reached agreement with the 6-foot-8 forward from Ukraine.

SIG clients include former KU forward Tarik Black, plus Lauri Markkanen, Alex Len and others.

Meanwhile, former KU guard Malik Newman will announce his choice of an agent on Friday, his dad, Horatio Webster, said on Wednesday.

Apr 19, 2018 10:51 AM #327

This is going to be attractive to Doke no matter what. I still believe he's leaving

The G league announced on Tuesday that it was raising its base salary per player for the 2018-19 season to $7,000 per month for the five-month season, which works out to $35,000 salary for any given player.

Two-way contracts from the G League and the NBA, which sets their salary at $77,250 are up from this years rate as well

In addition to their salaries, players under NBA G League contracts will continue to have the opportunity to earn additional money through affiliate player bonuses and NBA Call-Ups. This season, about one quarter of players under NBA G League contracts also earned an average of $44,000 in NBA affiliate player bonuses – a total of more than $3 million on top of their NBA G League salaries. A record 50 NBA G League players earned a record 60 GATORADE Call-Ups to the NBA this season, generating earnings of more than $11 million, or approximately $225,000 per player.

The NBA G League also pays bonuses to players on NBA G League playoff teams and to those recognized as end-of-season performance award winners. The league awarded more than $225,000 in bonus money this season.

Further, in accordance with the NBA and National Basketball Players Association collective bargaining agreement, NBA players will continue to be able to enter into two-way contracts. NBA two-way players will earn $77,250, prorated for days spent on an NBA G League roster, and the NBA rookie minimum salary, prorated for the days with their NBA team, for maximum potential earnings of $385,000 next season. This season, 83 players across all 30 NBA teams signed two-way contracts.

Apr 19, 2018 01:05 PM #328

@BeddieKU23 I still say Doke leaving makes the most sense in being able to get Silvio and Dave.

Apr 19, 2018 01:13 PM #329

In the back of my mind I have always kind of thought that during the whole recruiting process that some how the Coach's their selling point to De Sousa & McCormick was that they thought Doke would be gone. I just get this feel that getting Silvio & McCormick both to come they really would want to both be here knowing that Doke comes back. -I - really feel that they had been told chances are that he was gone.

Apr 19, 2018 01:15 PM #330

jayballer73 said:

In the back of my mind I have always kind of thought that during the whole recruiting process that some how the Coach's their selling point to De Sousa & McCormick was that they thought Doke would be gone. I just get this feel that getting Silvio & McCormick both to come they really would want to both be here knowing that Doke comes back. -I - really feel that they had been told chances are that he was gone.

Exactly. Is either of them coming to be the 5th big next year? I don't think so.

Apr 19, 2018 01:18 PM #331

@BShark Right. - -I mean they want their minutes-- -who doesn't? - I dunno just my take/feel on this. - Is Doke ready? - - hell no but then again, there more likely then not going to take that gamble on just his size alone

Apr 19, 2018 01:19 PM #332

@jayballer73 Depends. Is he ready for the NBA definitely not, but he could easily make it in another league that pays well.

Apr 19, 2018 01:21 PM #333

@BShark Very true - - -always the over sea's option also that so many take. - just Like SVI - I would almost be totally shocked if he just doesn't end up back home playing ball in his home land some where and making decent money

Apr 19, 2018 01:22 PM #334

I could see Svi getting drafted in the 2nd round.

Apr 19, 2018 01:25 PM #335

@BShark True - - - -BUT is there really that big of difference between 2nd round NBA play and over sea's with a chance to be back home for the same or close to the same and be close to family and friends - -especially how we saw at Senior night how close he is to his dad?

Apr 19, 2018 01:31 PM #336

KJ Lawson is probably going to be the guy that makes most of our lineups work because of his versatility. We can go big or small with KJ on the floor because he can slide up or down (and defend basically anyone but the biggest fives and quickest ones.

Against a big team, KJ plays the 3 and gives us ball handling. Imagine a lineup of Grimes-Langford-KJ-Dedric-Doke. That's a four out lineup that not many college teams can deal with. Switch Silvio or Big Dave for Doke and that's still a tough lineup to work with.

But KJ can also slide down the scale if we need him to. Imagine a small lineup with Dedric at the 5, KJ at the 4, then Grimes, Dotson and Moore. As @Kcmatt7 said, Dedric is big enough and strong enough to handle the 5 against everyone but the best 7 footers. KJ rebounds well enough to lock down the 4, and that lineup is a nightmare to guard because everyone can shoot and handle. I think we played a team like that one time... (probably too soon).

With the ability to plug KJ, Grimes and Agbaji into a variety of lineups because of their size, skill and athleticism, KU isn't locked into specific lineups. That's one benefit of KJ having been here all year. He knows the responsibilities of the different spots and will probably play almost all of those spots over the next year.

Apr 19, 2018 02:01 PM #337

justanotherfan said:

KJ Lawson is probably going to be the guy that makes most of our lineups work because of his versatility. We can go big or small with KJ on the floor because he can slide up or down (and defend basically anyone but the biggest fives and quickest ones.

Against a big team, KJ plays the 3 and gives us ball handling. Imagine a lineup of Grimes-Langford-KJ-Dedric-Doke. That's a four out lineup that not many college teams can deal with. Switch Silvio or Big Dave for Doke and that's still a tough lineup to work with.

But KJ can also slide down the scale if we need him to. Imagine a small lineup with Dedric at the 5, KJ at the 4, then Grimes, Dotson and Moore. As @Kcmatt7 said, Dedric is big enough and strong enough to handle the 5 against everyone but the best 7 footers. KJ rebounds well enough to lock down the 4, and that lineup is a nightmare to guard because everyone can shoot and handle. I think we played a team like that one time... (probably too soon).

With the ability to plug KJ, Grimes and Agbaji into a variety of lineups because of their size, skill and athleticism, KU isn't locked into specific lineups. That's one benefit of KJ having been here all year. He knows the responsibilities of the different spots and will probably play almost all of those spots over the next year.

I'm with you on KJ. At first when he came here I wasn't but he was solid on the Italy trip and I've been hearing only good things. I think he's going to play, and play a lot. The kind of player that just finds minutes on a Self team.

Oh and I think you actually named the early starting line-up, provided Romeo isn't landed.

Dotson - Moore- Grimes - KJ - Dedric.

Maybe Garrett sneaks in there instead of Moore.

With Garrett it could easily be an elite defensive line-up. Moore makes it a little better offensively but probably slightly worse overall. Though, against opposing line-ups where you can try to hide Moore defensively it might be better.

That's a lot of length and disruption of passing lanes. Dedric has a freak show 7'2.5'' wingspan. KJ is no slouch either with a 7' wingspan. Grimes for a guard fooling around with a 6'7'' wingspan should be disruptive as well. In the Garrett line-up, well we know about his D already. He had some lapses but is a willing defender and is also rangy and long (though I don't know his wingspan measurement). Then you have Dotson at PG at 6'2'' with good lateral quickness and from everything I've seen he is a willing defender as well. Dotson would be the only player out there under 6'5''. That's a nightmare for opposing offenses if everybody is locked in and committed on D.

Apr 19, 2018 02:02 PM #338

Unfortunately for us, I think there will be some lucrative offers for Doke overseas. He is a project with a huge potential payoff. But besides that, he has a bit of a "circus side show" effect going for him as well.

"Come one come all and see this giant freak Dunk everything!" He will, at the very least, sell some tickets. I think that makes him a valuable commodity for an overseas team trying to get people to gain an interest in basketball.

Apr 19, 2018 02:03 PM #339

Also something to note is that KJ will be 22 by the time KU plays its first game next season.

Apr 19, 2018 03:31 PM #340

Kcmatt7 said:

Unfortunately for us, I think there will be some lucrative offers for Doke overseas. He is a project with a huge potential payoff. But besides that, he has a bit of a "circus side show" effect going for him as well.

"Come one come all and see this giant freak Dunk everything!" He will, at the very least, sell some tickets. I think that makes him a valuable commodity for an overseas team trying to get people to gain an interest in basketball.

There may be, but they'll be more lucrative a year from now. Self and company are terrific at developing bigs (Silvio being the recent example) and this will be Doke's first healthy summer in Lawrence. Look out.

Apr 19, 2018 03:34 PM #341

FarmerJayhawk said:

Kcmatt7 said:

Unfortunately for us, I think there will be some lucrative offers for Doke overseas. He is a project with a huge potential payoff. But besides that, he has a bit of a "circus side show" effect going for him as well.

"Come one come all and see this giant freak Dunk everything!" He will, at the very least, sell some tickets. I think that makes him a valuable commodity for an overseas team trying to get people to gain an interest in basketball.

There may be, but they'll be more lucrative a year from now. Self and company are terrific at developing bigs (Silvio being the recent example) and this will be Doke's first healthy summer in Lawrence. Look out.

Would you rather have Doke or Bassey?

Apr 19, 2018 03:38 PM #342

Doke without question. No eligibility questions and he's going to have a fantastic year. I will say though that I love Bassey's game. He's a better passer, rebounder, and shot blocker than Doke. Just not a good interior scorer or defender yet.

Apr 19, 2018 03:50 PM #343

@FarmerJayhawk I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying he is going to have tempting offers come in and he is in a rough spot as far as decisions go.

I hope he stays. I really, really hope he stays. But I don't know what I would do in the same position as him.

Apr 19, 2018 03:53 PM #344

@BShark

Doke of course.

Apr 19, 2018 03:53 PM #345

@Kcmatt7 he's only 18. Will his guardians follow him?

Apr 19, 2018 04:10 PM #346

@Crimsonorblue22 There are kids younger than him playing pro ball in Europe.

Apr 19, 2018 04:11 PM #347

@Kcmatt7 he seems so immature

Apr 19, 2018 04:14 PM #348

@Crimsonorblue22 I don't know that it changes from 18 to 19 lol.

Apr 19, 2018 04:43 PM #349

Euro basketball has changed a lot in recent years and the better Leagues now develop their own players. The time when American players would star is long gone. Most players that go there, like Preston and the Ball brothers, end up playing in the smaller Leagues where pay is not that good and conditions are poor. Better opportunities in the Middle and Far East, particularly China, but I read the living conditions are particularly bad.

Apr 19, 2018 04:46 PM #350

@JayHawkFanToo Perry loves it in Australia and Landen is having a great time in Japan. Those would seem like two solid options depending on salary. Nice, highly developed countries. Australia has the added benefit of English being the primary language too.

And yeah the money is good in China but ugh the living conditions there.

Apr 19, 2018 04:51 PM #351

@Kcmatt7

The only thing that changes from 18 to 19 is that parents are usually too far away to keep you from doing the dumb stuff you came up with at 18.

Apr 19, 2018 05:05 PM #352

@BShark

Australia is a new but small market. Landen grew up in Japan and speaks Japanese so I imagine it is a lot easier for him than for the average foreign player.

Apr 19, 2018 05:08 PM #353

@JayHawkFanToo I'm just saying there are good options in developed countries. Agree it might be tougher to go to Japan given their culture towards outsiders.

Basketball has exploded in Europe so you are right that teams have a lot more home grown talent. Still there is money to be made for a good US player.

I have confidence that the KU staff will help outgoing players try and find the best situation for them.

Apr 19, 2018 05:11 PM #354

One thing not being considered, Doke might technically be worth more. I don't know if the rules limit Americans, or just foreign players. I think it is just American players. That would give Doke a lot more options and potentially drive his price up a bit, being as how he isn't technically an "American."

Apr 19, 2018 05:16 PM #355

The Michael Jordan of Delaware declares for the Draft without an agent

Apr 19, 2018 05:19 PM #356

BeddieKU23 said:

The Michael Jordan of Delaware declares for the Draft without an agent

Hope him and Spellman stay in.

Apr 19, 2018 05:28 PM #357

There are some leagues that limit American's only. Doke would be a big advantage in those leagues. Others are foreigners, period, and Doke would not qualify for that. However, if Doke can get citizenship in one of the countries, he could then fetch a big pay day.

I have no doubt Doke could make a good living playing ball in Europe.

Apr 19, 2018 05:39 PM #358

@BShark

I am not saying there are no opportunities overseas, only that there are considerably fewer in the better Euro Leagues than before, otherwise, a player like Preston with a higher ceiling than Doke would not be playing in the Bosnian League for nominal pay. Keep in mind that the stretch PF and bigs that can shoot from outside are popular in Europe.

Apr 19, 2018 06:48 PM #359

BShark said:

BeddieKU23 said:

The Michael Jordan of Delaware declares for the Draft without an agent

Hope him and Spellman stay in.

Would make our home game against them this yr a little bit easier!

Apr 20, 2018 10:02 PM #360

!alt text ↗

Apr 21, 2018 02:54 PM #361

HE GONE

Apr 25, 2018 04:58 AM #362

Holy smokes! A record 236 underclassmen declare for the draft. 181 US college students and 55 international players. This doesn’t include senior hopefulls like Svi and Devonte’. Only 60 spots...

Apr 25, 2018 04:59 AM #363

I wonder if there is any possibility of Vick returning? Is he welcome back?

Apr 25, 2018 11:55 AM #364

Vick is done at KU.

Apr 26, 2018 03:45 PM #365

@dylans

No harm in testing the waters and getting feedback. More than half of those guys know they are going to return, but it helps them understand what skills they need to work on over the next year or so.

Apr 26, 2018 05:30 PM #366

@justanotherfan No doubt, but I've never once heard the possibility of Vick returning to KU in spite of him not hiring an agent. Also most articles (if they mention him) say he should return to school, but I don't get the feeling he's welcome back.

Apr 26, 2018 06:11 PM #367

Newman has an Agent now I see. Only one left that we haven't heard is Vick. Who knows he'll probably use La La

Apr 27, 2018 02:12 PM #368

Combine Invites go out today. Could be as many as 6 KU players invited.. We'll see.

The most interest will be whether Doke gets one or not

Apr 27, 2018 02:24 PM #369

I highly doubt Doke, Preston, or Vick get an invite. I assume Graham, Svi, and Malik will.

Apr 27, 2018 02:28 PM #370

@Woodrow

I think Preston gets an invite. NBA people will want to see him compete. He was a highly ranked player, so they will want to see where he is at. Combine invites are for those players that most teams would want to see work out anyway. I think Preston fits that category.

Doke is a tough call. NBA folks probably want to see if he's healthy, but there are significant questions about whether he is still a year away. He may get some individual workouts, but may not get a combine invite.

I don't think Vick will get an invite, but he should also get some individual team workouts, probably in a group setting as teams decide who to use 2nd round picks on.

Apr 27, 2018 02:43 PM #371

I expect Preston to get an invite actually.

Apr 27, 2018 02:56 PM #372

I expect Svi, Devonte, Malik, and Billy to get invited. Vick should start looking for international flights.

Apr 27, 2018 07:10 PM #373

@BShark

I agree, too much upside with Preston to not get an invite. With a good showing he is probably first round.

Apr 29, 2018 01:17 AM #374

Svi Devonte and malik get combine invites

Apr 29, 2018 02:21 AM #375

Doke too. Everyone but Vick. Doke getting an invite feels like a favor.

Apr 29, 2018 02:36 AM #376

Color me surprised.

Apr 29, 2018 05:07 AM #377

Billy?

I’d want to see Dok too if I was an NBA exec just in case he stays in.

Apr 29, 2018 05:57 AM #378

dylans said:

Billy?

I’d want to see Dok too if I was an NBA exec just in case he stays in.

Yeah, Billy got invited.

Apr 29, 2018 03:42 PM #379

Very surprised as well. Johnathan Givony doesn’t even have Doke in his top 100 prospect list. I believe he has Billy at 86.

Also Vick is a alternate so if some guys decline the invite which happens by top prospects he could get to go.

Apr 29, 2018 05:30 PM #380

Actually Vick was invited as an alternate and in case on of the invitees decides not to go (many of the top players pass) or there are injuries he would be attending the combine.

!0_1525023037166_upload-610bd8ca-2dbe-4374-83d2-e2f53661d8ac ↗

Apr 30, 2018 12:20 AM #381

BShark said:

Doke too. Everyone but Vick. Doke getting an invite feels like a favor.

Just a sign he's not returning

Apr 30, 2018 12:31 AM #382

BeddieKU23 said:

BShark said:

Doke too. Everyone but Vick. Doke getting an invite feels like a favor.

Just a sign he's not returning

Probably right.

Apr 30, 2018 12:45 AM #383

BeddieKU23 said:

BShark said:

Doke too. Everyone but Vick. Doke getting an invite feels like a favor.

Just a sign he's not returning

BasseyWatch2k18

Apr 30, 2018 09:40 AM #384

I'm shocked Doke was invited but I guess the interest in him was greater then anything written about him. He'll get his chance and he'll get workouts etc. This seems like one we are seeing the first step to him finding a professional career.

The power of KU's brand definitely helped him here.

Apr 30, 2018 04:18 PM #385

With Doke, evaluators want to know two things.

  1. Is he healthy

  2. Can he play as a rim running, PnR 5 in today's NBA.

He was good catching lobs at KU, the question now is can he catch lobs off the PnR, and can he hold his own in isolation against guards since he will have to defend PnR switches. If he answers both of those questions positively, I can certainly see him staying in the draft. Doke will need a year in the G League before he's ready for the NBA whether he stays at KU or not. If he's close to ready now, he should spend that year in the G League now rather than a year from now.

Vick is going to be okay. He's heading to the G League most likely. Teams just have to decide what priority to assign him (i.e., do you want to be sure you get him by drafting him in the second round, or do you think you can snag him as a free agent signee). Vick can play in the NBA. I think he likely will. Just not for probably two more years.

May 01, 2018 05:35 AM #386

@justanotherfan

Doke is now a one dimensional player with a still developing feel for the game and many holes in his game that I will guess the combine will expose. He really has no offensive game outside a few feet from the basket, is a below average rebounder for his size and his defense ouside the paint needs work.

Having said that, you can’t teach size and he is got plenty of that and he seems to be a quick learner and a hard worker. He probably will not get drafted but I am sure several team will want to extend a free agent contract to see if he can improve in the G League.

The question is does he want to come back for an additional year to improve his game and get most of his degree completed or make limited money in the G League with the hope of a larger pay check in the near future?

May 01, 2018 12:14 PM #387

?s=21

Vick will probably get his shot as a lot of big names are declining invites which is normal.

May 09, 2018 03:56 PM #388

Doke had a workout with the Lakers

http://www.nba.com/lakers/news/180507-draft-workouts ↗

May 09, 2018 03:56 PM #389

!0_1525881403940_upload-28ed7230-3fff-4e6f-9441-cb657098b4f5 ↗

May 14, 2018 10:30 PM #390

I don't know why is it - -I'm starting to get more of a feel that we are going to lose Doke too?

May 15, 2018 02:33 AM #391

Landen Lucas never jumped that high in his life...

Dok was overweight a season ago, what would one more year of Hudy do for him?

May 15, 2018 03:01 PM #392

@dylans While I agree some that Landen never jumped that high , I do find it interesting that for all the comments made about Landen the stats show he really didn't do that bad at all - -pretty good actually.

Rebounding is not all about how high you can jump , a lot more to it then that - and Landen was good at that - -jumping - - - but more importantly a key is positioning - work ethic, foot movement - - blocking out

If you take Udoka where he played the season - -his averaged 2.4 OR per game - - -4.6 DR per game 7.0 TRB -being supposedly 7 ft - which Coach Self said he wasn't BUT

Now if you look at Landen where he had 2 full seasons - his JR & Sr years: -- -he averaged 2.3 OR his Jr yr - -& 3.0 his SR yr - - - - - he averaged 4.5 DR hid JR yr - - - - 5.3 his SR yr

Landen finished very nicely in his two full season JR & Sr years 2 seasons in the top 10 offensive rebounding in the big 12 - - - - - 2 seasons top 10 defensive rebounding & 2 seasons in top 10 total rebounding in the big 12

in Total rebounding in 16-17 his Sr year in big 12 he accounted for 17.9% of the rebounds good for 2nd in the big 12
" " "- - - - - -for his career Landen accounted for 18.4 % of the rebounds good for 6th in the big 12

in Offensive rebounding in 16-17 his SR yr in big 12 he accounted for 13.8 % of the rebounds good for 3rd in the big 12
" " " for his career Landen accounted for 13.8 % of the rebounds good for 8th in the big 12

In Defensive Rebounding in 16-17 his SR yr in the big 12 he accounted for 21.8 % of the rebounds good for 3rd in the big 12
" - " " for his career Landen accounted for 22.4 % of the rebounds good for 8 th in the big 12

In offensive rebounds for his career Landen collected 248 good for 15th in the big 12( - playing part time Fr & Soph} - so not shabby
with two season in the top 10 in offensive rebounding

In defensive rebounding for his career Landen collected 454 good for 17th in the big 12 - - ( still top 20 in the league for his career )
with two seasons in the top 10 in defensive rebounding

In total rebounds in his career he had two top 10 seasons his JR & Sr seasons - - - -You put all this together with on top of the fact when Coach Self asked the players who they wanted on the floor with them and they all said Landen - -Landen had a pretty good career jumping as high or not

May 15, 2018 03:02 PM #393

@BeddieKU23

Doke's size and athleticism are top notch. The question is how his basketball skills are going to develop. When in doubt, always bet on the athleticism.

Does an NBA franchise feel like sending Doke to the G League this year and part of next year is a good investment, or do they want him to go back to college, then spend one and a half seasons in the G League? Doke's age makes this a complicated decision because he doesn't turn 21 until September of 2020. He won't be 19 until the start of training cap this year. He's one of the youngest players in this year's draft, younger than freshmen like DeAndre Ayton, Marvin Bagley and Mo Bamba. Doke is younger than Anfernee Simons, who would have been an incoming freshman this fall. The only players in the draft that I can find younger than Doke are Jontay Porter, who reclassified last year to play at Mizzou, and Issac Bonga, an international prospect.

Of that group, Doke is the only one to have two years of US college hoops. Porter has one, obviously, and Bonga has played in a pro league in Germany the last couple of years.

That might be enough to convince a GM to take the gamble and stash him in the G League for a year or two.

May 15, 2018 03:44 PM #394

@jayballer73 I hope Mitch can become as competent as Landon was. But I also know no matter how much talent you have 1-4 if Lucas is your starting center you aren’t going to the final four.

May 15, 2018 03:46 PM #395

@justanotherfan

I agree that a NBA team might take a gamble on Doke but it will not be in the draft. The more likely scenario is that he is offered a two way contract for the G League that allows him to move for up to 45 days to an NBA roster with the pay prorated to the basic rookie contract for the time spent at the upper level. I just don't see an NBA team using a draft pick on a player lacking so many of the skills needed at the higher level. One extra year in college, and assuming he can correct his FT shooting, develop better rebound technique/production and most importantly, develop a mid range offensive game, then he would become a potential fist round pick.

The G League currently pays $7k for month plus expenses for a total of $35K for the 5 months of the season, If the player maxes out his time at the NBA level he can earn over $300K per season. Of course, if he is never called to the upper level then $35K plus some bonuses is all he gets. A year ta KU is likely worth twice that amount.

May 15, 2018 03:50 PM #396

@JayHawkFanToo

The question remains whether he would be allowed to develop a midrange game by returning to KU? What's better for KU - to have Doke shoot 65% because he's adding a face up game from 10 feet, so he misses some turn around jumpers and such, or have Doke shoot 80% on dunks, layups, jump hooks and lobs?

Can Doke develop in the ways he needs to by returning to Kansas?

Or more accurately, will Bill Self allow Doke to develop the way he needs to in order to succeed professionally?

That's a question Doke has to answer just as much as NBA teams have to answer the draft/G League/ two way question. But I ultimately think the answer to those questions is not in Lawrence.

May 15, 2018 03:56 PM #397

@justanotherfan

If he stays at KU, his development must happen during the off season and he will just polish the new skill during the regular season. Frankly, if Doke can develop a decent mid-range game, he would be that much more valuable to KU since he becomes a lot more difficult to guard and I can see why the coaching staff would want him to do it. Just my opinion.

May 15, 2018 08:35 PM #398

dylans said:

@jayballer73 I hope Mitch can become as competent as Landon was. But I also know no matter how much talent you have 1-4 if Lucas is your starting center you aren’t going to the final four.

Yes very true - -Landen was a decent big nothing flashy but solid - still like you say that just isn't getting you to a final four

May 15, 2018 11:27 PM #399

@jayballer73 It doesn’t make me like him less. Love me some Lando, but it is what it is.

May 16, 2018 01:21 AM #400

dylans said:

@jayballer73 It doesn’t make me like him less. Love me some Lando, but it is what it is.

I wasn't really calling you our directly - just been people bagging on him - a lot not even on this site - -just think it's kind of funny - he had a pretty decent JR & Sr season that's all I thinking

May 16, 2018 04:43 PM #401

Landen Lucas should have gone down as one of the great five year role players in the history of KU basketball. He did everything he was supposed to, its just that he was asked to do more than he ever should have been. He wasn't supposed to ever be a starter at KU. Had he been allowed to be a 10-15 minute per game player, his weaknesses would not have been exposed and he may have been a part of a couple of Final Four teams, maybe even a champion.

Lucas was a perfect backup at a school like KU. But he was forced into a role as a starter, which was unfair to him to have to carry that weight of expectation. Imagine if a guy like Jeremy Case had been required to be the starting PG for KU as a junior and senior, or if Jamari Traylor had been asked to be the starting PF his last two years. We would remember them differently because they would have been in roles that exceeded their skills. Jamari got a little bit of that as it was because KU was thin up front towards the end of his career.

We view Landen in a different light because of the role he was cast in, when if we view him as a solid backup, he actually exceeded expectations. That's how I try to look at Landen now that his career is over - solid backup that was overextended as a starter. He played to his skill level. He was just over extended in the role he was given.

May 17, 2018 03:15 AM #402

!0_1526526933305_2EBB3440-0DA1-4BED-92EB-6AC62F29A3DD.jpeg ↗

May 17, 2018 11:55 AM #403

@justanotherfan good post. led the Big 12 in FG% as a starter. While the Jordan Bells of the world took advantage of Landen, he still put us in position to get that shot against Oregon. Nothing but love for the big guy.

May 17, 2018 12:29 PM #404

And, unfortunately, the above analysis being correct, it leads to only one conclusion. Bill Self blew it. Both with his decisions on playing time and his roster building. Watching Nova win it all, watching teams win with the stretch 4 at the 5 spot, we can now see how valuable Diallo would have been had he been managed properly. Self was behind the curve there and chose the plodder. How history might have been different had Diallo been the choice of Lucas.

May 17, 2018 12:39 PM #405

@HighEliteMajor seems logical from outside looking in, but that's assuming we know all of the factors at play.

Also, Diallo would have been gone, but I don't think that's your point. You're talking about "the Diallos" and "the Landens". Devil may be in the details though.

May 17, 2018 12:41 PM #406

Maybe Self never wanted Diallo, but Adidas did...

May 17, 2018 02:52 PM #407

@approxinfinity I was referring to Diallo the season we lost to Nova in the Elite 8. That year, Diallo was banished in favor of the pedestrian Lucas, on the apparent assumption that we only needed our post man to do certain things. We can always revert to the idea about other factors. It is the perpetual "get out of jail free card" that can be played at any time, from folks (not you) that have no other explanation for bad decisions. It can always be a partial explanation -- of everything and anything.

The handling and lack of use of Diallo was horrible and unforgivable. Diallo wasn't this unique, stupid, malcontent who was incompetent on the court. You develop a player over a season.

If Lucas had been here this past season, or Traylor, DeSousa would never have seen the court. And DeSousa was twice the player (a minor hyperbole alert) that either of those guys ever were, within 60 days of setting foot on campus.

However, the second part of my point is just as horrible and unforgivable -- being in a position to rely on Lucas a starter as you pointed out (same with Jamari Traylor). Our program, our results, would have been better if neither of those players ever started a game. Bill Self need only look in the mirror when wondering why, over Mason's four seasons, we never reached the final four.

May 17, 2018 03:00 PM #408

@HighEliteMajor

I disagree. Diallo's issues and his late start placed him way behind the curve with the KU system in part due to the late start and in part due to his low basketball IQ due to his previous limited exposure to the sport and, while extremely physically gifted, proved to be a slow learner. At KU he was more of a liability than an asset and the players themselves chose Lucas over him...this is pretty telling.

In his second year in the League he still has not secured a spot in the rotation or roster because of his highly inconsistent play and he either plays during garbage time or has lots of DNP- Coach decision. Even this season he spent time in the G League learning the game. Obviously the Pelicans hope he will eventually develop but at this time he looks like the prototype journeyman bench warmer.

May 17, 2018 03:54 PM #409

Measurements:

  • Svi 6' 6.5'' without shoes and only a 6' 4.75'' wingspan. He is essentially a 6'5 type player. Not good.

  • Newman 6'2.5 without shoes and a 6'5.5 wingspan

  • Doke 6'10 without shoes and a 7'7 wingspan!!!

  • Preston 6'8.75 and a 7'2 wingspan

  • Devonte 6'0.25 without shoes and a 6'6.25 wingspan

May 17, 2018 04:08 PM #410

@JayHawkFanToo One observation I make is that Landen Lucas is playing basketball in Japan, on some team called Toyota Alvark. If the logic you are suggesting is each player's respective professional standing, Lucas is playing in McDonalds and Diallo is a step below Jean Georges in NY City. Diallo has actually played in an NBA game. Multiple games.

Now, you do realize what you're saying. You're saying that Diallo was so incompetent (BB IQ), and that despite the fact that he was simply better at basketball than our slug Landen Lucas, Self just couldn't play him. Yet, Diallo was somehow competent enough (BB IQ) to play in the NBA. 12 games his first season, 52 his second.

He was never more of a liability than an asset. He just needed game action to develop and acclimate. No doubt, it takes a little time to grasp the entire Self scheme. Self was just impatient because he had his safety blankets.

What he needed was time, commitment, and coaching. They gave up on him. They chose to abandon his development in favor of a low, low ceiling Lucas who when matched against better players, gets overwhelmed. The evidence is undeniable. Yet, in the face of knowing that, seeing that, and seeing the alternative player actually playing in the NBA while our guy (Lucas) sets picks on the Hamburglar in the basketball stronghold of Japan.

It's the same reason for playing Jamari Traylor -- the "known" was less risky than the "unknown." Bad way to make decisions.

It was a huge fail by Self and his staff.

@BigBad - Wrong. Just dead wrong. Diallo was 6'7 1/2 barefoot with a 7' 4 1/2 wingspan. Standing reach over 8' 11".

Lucas' wingspan is 4 1/2 inches less than Diallo.

Lucas was not a rim protector. Diallo was. Diallo could jump. Lucas, well, not really.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2640034-cheick-diallo-nba-combine-2016-measurements-analysis-and-draft-projection ↗
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Cheick-Diallo-71440/ ↗

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3919335/cheick-diallo ↗

May 17, 2018 04:13 PM #411

And yet when asked by the players who they would rather have trust on the floor more steady - they all in /unison said - - LUCAS - -hmmmmmm

May 17, 2018 04:13 PM #412

What am I wrong about? All I did was list yesterdays measurements. I wasn't comparing them to anyone.

May 17, 2018 04:14 PM #413

Pelicans The Pelicans are counting on Cheick Diallo to become an "impact player" for them in 2018-19.

May 17, 2018 04:16 PM #414

@BigBad I know

May 17, 2018 05:16 PM #415

Doke and Preston's measurements are big positives for both of them. Devonte as well, though he is shorter than most would prefer, but that length means he can play a bit bigger than his height.

Newman neither helps nor hurts his stock with his measurements. He needs to defend this week at the combine.

Svi hurts himself a bit, but can remove some of those concerns with a good showing shooting the basketball. Svi was always going to be more of a shooter than anything else. JJ Redick also has a wingspan shorter than his standing height, and he's done okay in the NBA. Svi isn't quite that level of shooter, but he likely will have the same type of role as Redick in the NBA.

May 17, 2018 05:30 PM #416

@BigBad My apologies. My first read on your post was that it said Diallo not Svi. Sorry about that.

May 17, 2018 05:41 PM #417

It is an interesting intellectual exercise to discuss players like the Big Red Dog, Billy Preston, and especially Diallo, as if Self were free to play them as much as the apparent lesser talented players that he opted in most cases to play more of the time instead.

But none of the three EVER probably would have been signed had Self had greater access to the kinds of big men that tend to sign with Elite programs in the EST, so I am not sure that one cannot discuss them this way in any truly meaningful way.

Diallo and Lucas were apparently a package, i.e., a kind committee, solution to a problem of insufficient D1 bigs apparently precipitated by an apparent recruiting embargo, obstruction, asymmetric channeling, or something else (you choose) of OAD/5-star grade talent at the 5.

The only reason they apparently WERE signed was what now appears an extended, and perhaps intensifying, recruiting embargo/blockade/asymmetric channelling/something else (you choose) that has apparently constrained the recruiting by our Hall of Fame coach with the highest winning percentage of any active coach in recent years, depending on the 10 year and less time frames one parses with.

With hindsight, we now can at least guess somewhat reasonably why both Cal and Self competed to sign Diallo (the hyper sashimi of big man basketball recruits), and the motivations appear to have been starkly different.

Cal apparently wanted Diallo, because: a.) raw, apparently baggage-laden guys like Diallo were apparently NOT a problem for UK to get cleared; b.) Diallo's absence of recognizable basketball fundamentals was not a great deficit in Cal's hop, skip and a jump high school offense (that already no one else runs); c.) Cal apparently correctly anticipated UK was shortly no longer going to be awarded long stacks by whatever powers may be that giveth long stacks and taketh long stacks away; and d.) Cal apparently correctly reasoned that if he signed Diallo to keep him away from Self, Self would lack sufficient inside depth to be a serious threat to UK and perhaps other Nike-contracted programs come March. All in all, it was pretty savvy of Cal to try to recruit the raw, apparent human baggage carousel that was Diallo, wasn't it?

Now reflect on our Coach Self a moment.

Self, in contradistinction, had already had extensive experience with trying to win with 3, or fewer OADs, and had loooooong experience with not being able to sign, or coach, OAD/5-star players at the 1 and 5 spots. And Self was increasingly familiar with having to develop and play 3-4 star projects. This was the temple of Bill's familiar that was all entirely Greek to Cal. In any case, Bill apparently took a significant risk (specifically of failure to clear) and signed Diallo: a.) to have someone (even someone without recognizable basketball fundamentals) with D1 grade athleticism and size inside at least for some depth; and b.) he appears to have taken his roulette wheel chance on Diallo precisely because he could claim that Kentucky recruited him, too. That's it. I can't see any other angle, can you? Bill was apparently rolling the dice to find someone that might be a fast learner (a second lightening strike like the prior project that was Embiid) in hopes of maybe being able to put at least one big on the floor with draft choice grade athleticism. He was apparently gambling, and with some desperate futility it appears in hindsight, that if Cal and UK figured they could get him cleared, then he MIGHT, or so it appears in retrospect, be able to shame the NCAA into clearing him for KU, also. A coach apparently behind a recruiting 8-ball has to remain optimistic and try every angle to have even a reasonable chance of remaining successful at the level Self has attained, right?

So why am I spending so much time on Diallo other than that you guys are arguing the merits of a guy that has never showed an ability to start and play anywhere in college or the pros?

Diallo, to me, is the poster child for what KU recruiting has largely defaulted to in the case of big men, at least.

The once vaunted Big Man U can recruit many OAD/5-star big men and get quite a few to attend Late Night, but for reasons as impenetrable as rumored scalar energy warfare, can't sign them AND clear them AND avoid issues after clearance that make playing them after a certain point before, or during a season tantamount to having to vacate that season.

KU's new nickname should be "Big Baggage Man U + 3-4star Project Man U."

So: thinking about Diallo vs. Lucas misses the point IMHO.

Self never had a rational option to play Diallo, or Lucas, other than he did.

Let me explain why I believe this was so.

Sure, I stipulate that playing either player a lot more would have improved that player a lot more. And playing Diallo more would likely have yielded a better 5 by some point in the season than playing Lucas more, if the risks of relying heavily on either player were more or less the same.

But they apparently weren't the same.

Diallo was apparently a baggage carousel big from the git go, and Lucas was apparently not.

Thus the baggage risks with Diallo were apparently up here.

And the baggage risks with Lucas were apparently way down here.

Thus, Self's only rational option from a risk management stand point was to play both in just about the increments that he did, when he did, as the baggage risk drama played out.

Diallo and Lucas appeared to have been two sides of the same coin of Self's big man strategy resulting from an apparent recruiting embargo/obstruction/asymmetric channelling/something else phenomenon (you choose) that leads into Self never recently having the kind of roster of bigs comparable to other D1 Elite programs.

Since Self apparently cannot sign OAD/5-star bigs without baggage, he has opted to sign: a.) baggage projects with D1 athleticism; and b.) 3-4 star development projects without D1 athleticism; and then c.) hedge his bet on the baggage carousel big with over reliance and development of the 3-4 star project.

Thus, Self always has to anticipate and scheme the team around bigs that take years to develop, plus around bigs that likely won't get cleared, or if they do get cleared, will pose season long risks of other discoveries of baggage; that appears to be the big man committee at the KU 5 position, perhaps since the 2008 team, but definitely more recently.

Self apparently could NEVER start and largely rely on Diallo, because Self could apparently never be certain how his signing of, and heavy reliance on, Diallo would be viewed by the powers that were, and, so, could never fully discern how signing Diallo might be used against him by the powers that were. And increasingly in hindsight, it appears that the powers that were were not JUST the NCAA, if the recent, reputed widening of the FBI/DOJ investigation is to be given creedence. There appears to be some kind of as yet vaguely understood "complex" involved. Satisfying one part of said vague complex would not necessarily guaranty satisfaction of its other parts. Some parts may be in considerable conflict and competition at times. Its hard to say.

Thus, the complexities of this circumstance reduces rational coaching of baggage carousel bigs to a kind of risk management activity, not to an activity aimed at optimization of a particular player. This same circumstance apparently leads to the playing of inferior players as part of the risk management strategy; i.e., as a kind of hedging against relatively difficult to accurately quantify risk.

IMHO, Self appears caught in, and appears to be making, something approximating "satisficing" choices about big man development in a world of problematic roster trade-offs resulting largely from an apparent, and so far only vaguely understood, recruiting embargo/obstruction/asymmetric channelling/something else (you choose).

Thus it becomes a somewhat metaphysical discussion whether or not Diallo with many more minutes of PT would have developed enough over the course of the season to have helped KU go far deeper in the Madness, than what actually transpired. What actually transpired was apparently the most rationally feasible option Self could make with the limited information he likely possesses (and his limited information is likely significantly more extensive than what we possess). Self apparently chose to risk manage by, if you will, building a big man derivative out of Diallo and Lucas,and, when the risks of playing Diallo more down the stretch outweighed the advantages of playing him a lot, then Self apparently had little or no rational alternative other than to do it the way he did. It simply seems improbable that given the complexities of the situation that faced Self regarding his apparent baggage carousel big man that he could have with 100 percent confidence predict that it would be risk free to invest solely, or even just primarily, in his development.

Diallo, Cliff, and Billy all fit into this hypothesized derivative model of Self's big man by committee approach. The inferior player has to be played a lot in order to allay the risk of even having the baggage carousel big on the roster.

Think about this past season a moment. Self had to develop not only Doke, who couldn't do anything on offense but dunk, but he also had to develop the talent-challenged Mitch Lightfoot precisely because of Billy Preston's roster presence. Self apparently chose to prepare for the entire season, not as if Billy would play, but as if Billy might not play. Had Billy not been a baggage carousel big, Self might well have been able to cryo-ice Mitch, or maybe even never sign him at all, had Self been able to sign two non baggage carousel big men with talents and abilities typical of D1 bigs at other Elite programs.

Would KU have been better, if Billy had not been a baggage carousel big that played full time? Maybe, but not certainly in the age of the three point basket. Self probably wouldn't have let KU's trey shooters take as many threes and so KU would almost certainly have lost some games, as a result. Billy might have been able to off set those losses due to reduced trey shooting, but not necessarily. But Billy would likely have been able to trigger a W on those games, when KU was slumping outside and needed higher productivity inside to get a W. But these are metaphysical considerations. The fact apparently was: Billy was apparently a baggage carousel big, or Self appeared to sense that he might have been at some point or other. At any moment he could have apparently not been cleared. At any moment he apparently could have left the program without playing a game. And in fact, he did leave the program finally before playing in a conference game. So: Self apparently rationally was wise to recognize the risk of that eventuality by developing Mitch and suboptimzing Billy even in the exhibition games.

Hedge fund investors probably appreciate and respect what Self has done in the case of Diallo and in the case of Billy, probably with Cliff also. To them, they would not dare build the derivative without some kind of a guarantied insurance contract (a contract that insures against the collapse of either end of the derivative), even if it was a fake, or underfunded GIC. But Self? Man, he sails into most seasons in a stiff head wind diverting most playable OAD/5-star 5s to EST Elite Programs, and he patches together a Diallo and a Lucas derivative at the 5, or a Billy and a Mitch derivative, and without so much as a single GIC, he charts a course for winning 82%, 30 games, a conference title and a Final Four. He doesn't often get to the Final Four, but almost always drops anchor along the way at each of the other destinations on his chart.

Damned impressive.

The captain can sail.

(Note: All opining and speculation about appearances by a layman fan viewing remotely. No insider knowledge of what is REALLY going on. Rock Chalk!)

May 17, 2018 05:52 PM #418

@Crimsonorblue22 !0_1526579545971_16F52EC7-6982-4ECE-99D8-A0BEE8343046.jpeg ↗

May 17, 2018 07:39 PM #419

@HighEliteMajor

You are talking about apples and oranges. What they do now or where they play has nothing to do with where they were in their development while at KU. Look at POY Adam Morrison, he did not last long in the NBA or POY Tyler Hansbrough who is now playing in China or POY Jimmer Fredette that is also playing in China, likewise, there are many players that were not necessarily great in college and were drafted based on potential and did well in the NBA.

No question that Diallo had a higher upside but potential and usable skills are not the same thing. If you consider a scale where the floor is 0 and the top ceiling is 10, most players in the NBA have developed to somewhere between 8-10. At KU Diallo had a floor of 2 or 3 and a realistic ceiling of 7 and most of the time he played somewhere between 3 and 4. Lucas on the other hand had a floor of 5 and a ceiling of 7 or 8 and most of the time he played close to his ceiling, say 7...guess who most coaches are going to play. Lucas maximized his potential while Diallo's was just that, potential with occasional burst of good play. Coach Self has an obligation to the the program and to the team to play the lineup that will produce the best outcome and Lucas and not Diallo provided that.Thinking that with more playing time Diallo would have been that much better of a player is just wishful thinking. In the learning scale Embiid was freak savant of a learner with incredible natural skill, Josh Jackson a quick learner, Doke and average learner, Alexander a slow learner and Diallo a very slow learner.

Even when he has now been practicing 24/7 for 2 years, Diallo still is playing scrub minutes with trips to the G League. I have the NBA channel and I make it a point to try watching games with former KU players. Diallo plays mostly to give the starters a quick couple of minutes rest, particularly after Boogie was done for the season, and at the end of games when the outcome has been decided.

I guess we just agree to disagree.

May 17, 2018 09:21 PM #420

@JayHawkFanToo

There are two things that factor into whether a player succeeds in the NBA. One is development. That, obviously, has nothing to do with how they did in college.

The other is raw talent. A player has to have a raw talent level of X in order to play in the NBA. There isn't an NBA direct equivalent, but a few years ago FiveThirtyEight ↗ did a feature on a regular guy being created as a Madden player based on his actual skills. He rated as a 12 on the ratings scale. The lowest rated player in Madden that year was a long snapper that rated a 41.

Basketball works in much the same way. To be an NBA player, you would probably have to be "rated" a 55 or so at a minimum. Most regular people would be rated below 15. A guy like Diallo is around a 60 or so at this point in his career. Let's say that an average D1 player is rated 45.

Diallo had the physical talent to be an above average D1 player. Lucas was much closer to average (perhaps a high 40s, low 50s type). Chances are Diallo, when he left KU, was somewhere between 53 and 57 given that he's bounced between the NBA and the G League. Lucas is below even that minimum NBA standard.

The guys you point to (Morrison, Fredette, Hansbrough) have the minimum talent level, but they need to adapt their game. All three were primary options in college, but are not nearly talented enough to be number one options in the NBA. They are role players that have been stars throughout their lives. They are guys rated in the high 60s or low 70s, but to be a #1 option, you need to be an 80 or better. They have the minimum talent level to be in the league, but not to fulfill the role they are used to.

May 17, 2018 10:13 PM #421

justanotherfan said:

Newman neither helps nor hurts his stock with his measurements. He needs to defend this week at the combine.

I believe he hurt his stock. His 16/17 body fat was 5.6 and is now 6.25. His standing vert was 30.0 and is now 27.5. His max vert was 35.5 and is now 33.5. If I were Andrea Hudy I would be alarmed.

I couldn't find all of the stats for Svi but he did drop from 11.4% body fat down to 8.45%. I couldn't find his standing and max vert? He is also down 8lbs so he should jump higher? I guess when they finish updating http://stats.nba.com/draft/combine-strength-agility/#!?sort=MAX_VERTICAL_LEAP&dir=1&SeasonYear=2018-19 ↗ we will see?

May 17, 2018 11:49 PM #422

Svi lit up the nets today from the 3 shooting 66% leading all scorers with 20pts in 20 minutes off the bench. http://stats.nba.com/game/0921800002/ ↗

May 18, 2018 02:00 AM #423

Doke said in the Star he’d probably be back without a first round guarantee. I like that a lot.

May 18, 2018 02:38 AM #424

FarmerJayhawk said:

Doke said in the Star he’d probably be back without a first round guarantee. I like that a lot.

This really couldn't be put anymore plainly for Doke. - - The article from the star also said : An NBA Scout said they also had concerns about Azubuike's conditioning.

" The scout said I just don't know if someone like him is needed anymore, " The Scout said he's in the wrong era. - if that doesn't tell Doke at the minimum he needs to come back to College and try to work even harder to have any kind of shot. - I just don't know if he will ever be in the NBA - -maybe oversea's - -but NBA - just not sure

May 18, 2018 02:58 AM #425

Sucks for Doke but great for KU!!! Hope he is back.

May 18, 2018 02:17 PM #426

@Statmachine

The issue for Newman is that he was an average athlete before (by NBA standards) and is still a pretty average athlete now. The decreases aren't a big deal because they still make him average.

He has to show that he can defend 1s and 2s, that he can handle the PnR, and that he can pass. Everyone knows that he can score. He just has to show he can do it on both ends.

I see him as a off the bench spark scorer (Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams, Bobby Jackson type). If he can defend at an average level, he can make himself very valuable.

May 18, 2018 06:48 PM #427

@jayballer73 I have been saying it all along. No game outside of 5ft, poor conditioning, and he was 0-4 from the charity stripe in his combine scrimmage. He is still young and has time to improve his all around game. If I remember right Robinson practiced with the bigs and the guards to round out his game. So far Dok has put on a clinic on what not to do at the combine. I am hopeful he is encouraged by the feedback he receives and gets back to campus and gets to work. If he uses this summer to improve on his all around game he will be even more valuable next season for KU.

May 18, 2018 07:04 PM #428

I'll never understand the free throw thing. I would take this challenge. Give me Doke for two weeks. Pay me $25,000. He'll make 60% of his free throws next season, and so long as he does it the way I suggest, I'll repay the $25,000 and chip in another $5,000 if he fails.
This picture says it all. It should never, ever, never, ever happen on a basketball court, playing nerf hoop, or wherever.

Do not let him play if he does this. Bench.

Doke can do this. He needs to be forced.

!0_1526669922877_Udoka.jpg ↗

May 18, 2018 07:22 PM #429

@HighEliteMajor "so long as he does it the way I suggest"

That conditional guarantees your money is safe!

The problem is that he doesn't. That is what the coaches complain about. Benching could be a motivator, but the dilemma is that if he still does it wrong, you bench him and lose the possible 15 pts on 77% shooting from the (2 foot radius) "field". Where do you decide it is worth the tradeoff?

May 18, 2018 07:53 PM #430

@mayjay Well, that little contract condition is my deal breaker. I'd be happy to take a payment from a third party, say, Adidas. Maybe not advisable.

But I did not see anything that said the was refusing coaching, or refusing to do what the coach's said to do. Maybe I missed that. I had understood he was receptive when this all hit the fan after the OU game. I'll add to my deal -- I won't even make him shoot granny style.

But the coach's have more pull. For his own good, for his development, for the team in the long run, MAKE him do it the right way. Bill Self has a reputation of demanding excellence in the manner in which a screen is hedged, etc. I think he can demand this be done. I really hope Doke returns, and I really hope Doke gets the chance to improve here. He's a monster near the hoop.

May 19, 2018 01:27 AM #431

@HighEliteMajor

Doke has responded well to coaching in other areas, sounds like it could be more mental.

May 19, 2018 02:11 AM #432

@HighEliteMajor I think I read somewhere a comment about him reverting when tired in game situations.

Or maybe I made that comment as a theory. It gets confusing after a few thousand posts.

May 19, 2018 11:13 PM #433

@HighEliteMajor that picture has always looked doctored to me. Not saying it is, but doesnt it make his head look disproportionately large and isn't it weird that his face is clear (background) but his arms (foreground) are blurry? Really weird pic.

May 20, 2018 02:43 AM #434

@approxinfinity The photo is one I took on my phone from my TV screen, and posted in my prior thread. It's probably because the video was stopped and the arms were moving in the frame. Sadly, not doctored. In fact, the KC Star hard a photo in its print edition were the ball is even further to Doke's left. U .. G .. L ..Y.

/topic/6949

May 20, 2018 04:10 AM #435

@HighEliteMajor ahhh that makes sense. When I was a kid when my mom would lecture me I'd stare at her head hard enough until it started looking disproportionately sized for her body... Much better than talking back. Wasn't sure if watching Doke shoot free throws had caused some sort of psychological reversion to childhood for me...

May 20, 2018 04:22 AM #436

@approxinfinity Haha I thought you were talking about the Naismith photo. Dok’s form is fugly, but he does look like an exaggerated fathead form of himself.

May 20, 2018 05:45 AM #437

Its shocking just how short KU was this past season.

We all realized that Self was shorthanded (pun intended) in his big man rotation, but my god!!!! My suburban high school team in the 1970s was about as tall at positions 1, 2, 3, and 4, as KU was this past season!!!

Yes, the KU team was a lot more athletic than my high school team, but the only thing that saved the team from being completely blown out was the three good trey shooters.

Think about the real heights for Devonte, Malik, and Svi; then figure Vick HAD to be no taller than 6-3, and this was arguably the shortest bunch of runts to make the Final Four in many years.

No wonder they got their butts beat down by Villanova. Nova bunch of fake 75-100 ringers were all legitimately sized D1 players for their positions.

Good lord, imagine Mitch Lightfoot real height. He's listed at 6-8, so he cannot possibly be more than 6-6.

Marcus Garrett at 6-5? Sure. In a fun house mirror, maybe. The guy was probably 6-3.

Now step back an look at last season's Mighty Jayhawks.

Devonte 6-0

Malik 6-2

Vick 6-3

Svi 6-5

Marcus 6-3

Mitch 6-6

Doke 6-10

Silvio 6-8

Talk about finessing a dwarf team for 30+ wins.

This sounds like a team from 1962, not 2018!

The apparent embargo appears to have done its job, except Self keeps breeding hat rabbits like a DARPA project aimed at weaponizing Pookas.

The walls are closing in on Self, but he keeps finding cracks to slip through.

If he is able to win conference titles, 30+, and get to the Final Four, with a dwarf team, he has to be sooooooooo much better than all the other coaches coaching legitimate D1 talent that it must be scary for the other coaches to think about.

And it must drive one axis of the petroshoeco-agency complex absolutely berserk!

The last guy to hold this much edge over his fellow coaches was probably John Wooden.

Self is scary good.

He is not even using smoke and mirrors any more.

He is using dwarves including three that can shoot treys.

Not perfect.

He makes mistakes for sure.

But dwelling on Self's mistakes is a little like complaining about Marilyn Monroe's mole.

Marilyn drove men mad despite the mole.

Self, with his mistakes, well, he wins a ring, 14 straight conference titles, 30+ games and makes deep runs in the Carney, even with an apparent embargo monkey on his back. Its like handicapping Seabiscuit with two 100-hundred pound bags of readmix cement and Seabiscuit still outrunning War Admiral.

I've said this many times before: guys like Coach K, Cal, Roy, Jay, and Stumpy crash to .500 or .600, when they don't have a full house with aces over kings.

Hell, Jay had to have six apparently fake 75-100 ringers that were bigger and more athletic and that were all better trey shooters than all of KU's guys, except but maybe for Svi for Jay to be crowned the new genius of D1.

Would Self have lost a single flipping game with Jay's treys?

What would Jay Wright's record have been had he been coaching Self's dwarf team with only three 40% trey shooters? OMG!

SIX HUNDRED tops.

Self appears to make some sub optimizing choices about certain players.

But then we learn that the players he wasn't optimizing had baggage, or something else wrong, like they were refusing to come back for one or two more seasons, and the lesser player was willing to come back as long as Self would have him.

What if Self were recruiting on a level playing field?

What would his winning percentage be then?

85 percent?

90 percent?

95 percent?

These seem not just possible, but maybe feasible.

No coach has EVER won at a 90-95 percent level.

But it seems like Self could do it without too much trouble, if he were getting the kind of players the merely solid coaches at the other elite programs in the EST tend to get.

Imagine how tough Self and his Jayhawks would be to beat, if Self and his teams got the treatment Coach K and Duke get from the zebras.

Imagine if KU players could focus more on the game and ease by with Easygate classes.

Imagine how many players Self could sign, if KU were with Nike and Self could off the kinds of incentives to players that Stumpy reputedly offered in a phone call.

Imagine Self with 6-10 OADs--including one or two at each position--for several consecutive years?

I have never seen anything remotely like the level he is coaching at with the relative disadvantage he is coaching with.

Even John R. Wooden had to have a 6-1 wunderkind in Gail Goodrich on his dwarf teams in order to win rings. Goodrich was a flipping NBA shooting legend and started on an NBA champion. Goodrich was a 5 time NBA All-Star. The guy was freaking All NBA First Team one season. The guy scored 19,000 some points in the NBA. The guy played 14 NBA seasons and average 31 mpg and 13.8 ppg. Hell, he averaged over 20 ppg in four straight NBA playoff seasons. Who on Self's band of dwarves last season will EVER come remotely close to those NBA numbers? Exactly none, that's who.

And yet Self lead that team to a Final Four.

Its just flipping amazing.

May 20, 2018 01:09 PM #438

Nice fan fiction.

May 21, 2018 02:48 PM #439

@jaybate-1-0

Other than Villanova, point me to a truly great team in the NCAA last season. UVA stormed through the ACC, but we all understood their limitations even if no one saw UMBC coming. UNC was flawed. Michigan State couldn't find an identity. Duke couldn't defend. KU was jump shot dependent. Xavier lacked depth. Cincinnati struggled to score. Purdue lacked top flight talent. Michigan's guard play was suspect. Ohio State had no one to complement their stars. Same story for Miami. UCLA was torpedoed by early season scandal. Arizona was torpedoed by late season scandal. The top freshmen were too spread out, many at lesser programs.

There were not any great teams this past season. Villanova was the best team for most of the year. Villanova won the title. Every other team had a serious flaw that ultimately saw them get knocked out of the tournament for that very reason.

Maybe next year there will be great teams, although it's hard to see that coming through. Duke is still flawed in roster construction. So is UNC. Not getting Langford will probably haunt KU in a few key games when they could use his shooting. The FBI probe isn't going away, so there will probably be some recruit or team that gets hit with that at some point. Kentucky probably won't be able to rebound next year unless some of their guys come back. Arizona and Louisville are both probably sunk due to the investigation.

So who has the strongest team? Well, that's still up for debate, but whoever does probably has a shot at running the table in March because next year promises a bunch of really good, but also really flawed teams.

May 21, 2018 03:53 PM #440

@justanotherfan

Good post and very true.

I think Gonzaga looks like maybe the most complete team going into next year. This was a young team reloading after some key departures. Their starting 5 should be as good as any getting back two NBA prospects (Hachimura, Tillie) to return for their Jr seasons. Norvell takes another step forward after a stellar Freshman year. Perkins runs point as the savy veteran leader. They will have depth, size, shooting which is all key.

The only other potential very good team I could find was Nevada but that hinges on both the twins & Caroline returning. There is a lot of talent on that team if all return especially adding a potential OAD in Jordan Brown.

May 21, 2018 04:04 PM #441

@BeddieKU23

I am waiting to see who stays in the draft to figure out both Nevada and Kentucky. Those two teams look a lot different depending on whether some of their guys come back. Nevada with the twins back is a top 10 (maybe even top 5) team. Kentucky with Washington and Vanderbilt back is a monster (top 3 in the country, no question). Kentucky without them is a flawed team.

Heck, KU with Azubuike is a top 3 or 4 team. Without him, still good, but potentially turning into a team with a lack of frontcourt depth again

May 21, 2018 04:35 PM #442

@justanotherfan

Absolutely the fallout from the draft will change things a bit.

Nevada certainly could make a case as a top 3 pre-season team with the twins. Their PG returns from injury, added OAD possible Jordan Brown, 4 more high scoring transfers to the mix. It's a ton of talent that will have to be worked on to mesh.

Kentucky still looks flawed to me even if those guys return but definitely their ceiling raises a heck of a lot with them. With them keeping mum on the transfer market it seems they must be confident at least 1 of the 3 is staying.

KU with Doke certainly has a higher ceiling and puts some pieces into place that would be unsettled without him. It downplays the impact Lightfoot and McCormack would have to give. With the unknown situation regarding De Sousa's future we definitely could use a starter returning to anchor this team that's facing a complete face lift

May 21, 2018 09:17 PM #443

@justanotherfan

Since the apparent long stacking has apparently been curtailed a few years back (to avoid arousing too much apparent suspicion?), we haven't had a super team that I recall.

Historically, super teams have been fairly rare over much of the history of the NCAA. They have come only in short, infrequent, intermittent bursts, with the exception being UCLA under Wooden, when, after winning two with players other coaches didn't want, he finally reputedly looked the other way while Sam Gilbert hired players the same way other top schools were then and had been hiring players the previous 15 years he had been coaching UCLA and finishing second in conference so many times.

Because of the above, I am not sure how to interpret your observation about Nova.

The point seems to me to be that was a super team in disguise. Once folks watched them, which I did not do during the season, it became apparent that they were one of the most extraordinary teams to come along in NCAA history. They were essentially unprecedented. It wasn't just the offense that distinguished them. Many teams over the years have tried to volume shoot treys and combine that with match up zones. But no prior team ever had 6 >39 percent trey shooters playing in a rotation, including 2 highly athletic 6-9 to 6-10 big men that could drain the trey.

On a good night, there hasn't been another team in NCAA history that could have stopped them. Even the Walton and Jabbar lead UCLA teams would certainly have lost to them on any hot shooting night by Nova. They would have absolutely smoked the undefeated Indiana team of 1976, which was a pretty weak outside shooting team. They would have run UK's 2012 team off the floor on a good shooting night. Magic's national champion? Last year's Nova team would have beaten them by 20-30 points on a good shooting night. The only champion I can recall that might have stayed on the floor with them on a hot night would have been the Duke 9 OAD stack and even they didn't have two post men that could and did drain the trey.

Nova was greatest anomaly and arguably the greatest team in the history of NCAA basketball, and they were apparently carefully kept under the radar screen of as many bettors as possible over the course of the season. The Media-Gaming Complex at least accidentally enabled the phenomenon.

Think how much more obvious it would've been that Nova was a great team, on the scale of UK's 2012 team, or Duke's 9 stack, had Nova's now apparent ringers not been apparently sandbag-ranked 75-100.

Imagine just how on the radar screen Nova would have been all season had their 6 extraordinarily athletic, long, strong >39% trey shooters, including not one but two post men that could shoot >39% from trey, as well as run the floor, guard their positions, rebound, make free throws, and muscle, been accurately identified as precisely what they were: Top 25 players--all six of them.

It was a really sweet deal.

Why, they didn't even win their conference, right? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Think of how it would have changed betting lines every game of the season, if everyone had known what they were. Think of how it would have reduced the opportunity to exploit the underestimation of how good Nova was most of the season. Think of how much money there was to be made by doing that, rather than apparently blatantly long stacking and hyping to the cloud frontier either Duke, or UK, as in the past.

Now, think of how, even if that were NOT what really happened (i.e., if they were not channelled, pooled and sand-bagged for Jay the last few years to make a big killing) , how easily and quickly the apparent Media-Gaming complex and/or the apparent petroshoeco-agency complex (note: elements of the latter reputedly being investigated for channeling talent as we exchange posts), could seize what happened for the model of optimizing.

What a sweet deal, eh?

You could even just run the scam every third season and most would never get suspicious in mass distracted, memory challenged America.

May 21, 2018 11:24 PM #444

Jay Wright is a good coach and talent evaluator. No sense in over complicating it.

May 21, 2018 11:27 PM #445

BShark said:

Nice fan fiction.

I will take that as a compliment, thank you very much.

"Fan fiction", like "amateur journalism" before it in the 19-teens, is the breeding ground for literary innovation and greatness.

Modern science fiction and horror fantasy trace their roots not so much to Welles, Doyle, Huxley et al, but to American amateur journalism's incredible tide of greats including H. P. Lovecraft, that embraced both the English ghost story and dark tales of Poe and blended them into what would become commercially marketed in first Weird Tales during the 1930s and then as the tsunami of American science fiction of the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s.

The Inklings at Oxford made their top down contributions in the form of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy, and Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, but the stuff that broke down all the boundaries and freed the human imagination to deal with the technological tidal wave that hit us in the 20th and 21st Centuries is American science fiction and American horror fantasy, and those clearly spring from amateur journalism.

Now today, the greatest hotbed of creation and innovation in literature is happening in fan fiction and maybe even on an order of magnitude greater scale.

The moribund film industry to busy with pedophilia to really incorporate truly creative writers have finally figured out that they can now steal popular, fresh film ideas from fan fiction web sites where the young men and women, and older ones marginalized by the producer oligopolies in publishing and film, can be found writing incredibly great stuff and offering the training ground for the next great literary tidal wave.

Thank you, sir.

May 21, 2018 11:28 PM #446

BShark said:

Jay Wright is a good coach and talent evaluator. No sense in over complicating it.

Sure, and John Calipari was just a great recruiter.

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink!

Howling!

May 21, 2018 11:41 PM #447

BShark said:

Jay Wright is a good coach and talent evaluator. No sense in over complicating it.

When I stop to think about what you have written, I just cannot believe how I have overlooked the obvious comparison.

Jay Wright and John Calipari are apparently two sides of the same coin. They are almost interchangeable, once you make me think about it. They are both MASTERFUL recruiters able to recruit unprecedentedly anomalous numbers of certain kinds of players to non-elite majors (Jay at Nova and Cal at Memphis) and get to Final Fours doing so.

Thank you for calling my attention to this.

Do you suppose Jay will follow in Cal's footsteps and go to an elite major next?

Wouldn't this be great for the game? Wouldn't you reckon UK would be about ready to replace Cal, who's fabulous recruiting abilities seem to have mysteriously waned, so that they can benefit from Jay Wright's fabulous recruiting abilities?

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

Rock Chalk!

May 21, 2018 11:56 PM #448

@jaybate-1.0 Wright is a better in game coach than Calipari. You frequently overrate Self.

May 22, 2018 12:08 AM #449

BShark said:

@jaybate-1.0 Wright is a better in game coach than Calipari. You frequently overrate Self.

NEVER overrate Self. His numbers speak for themselves, especially with the level of talent he gets to coach in comparison with the other top coaches. Self has NEVER had a team as talented as Jay's was last season.

Regarding Jay vs. Cal as game coaches, you kind of pulled that out of thin air, so let me ground you in some quantitative reality.

Lifetime W&L

Jay 544-250 (.685)

Cal 678-202 (.770)

Cal seems to win more games and win at a higher rate.

So far as I can recall, all of Cal's victories were achieved, while he was an "in game coach," so it appears that Cal is quite a bit better "in-game" coach than Jay.

Though I admit, "in game coach" is a pretty fuzzy concept.

I am only using it because it is what you gave me.

May 22, 2018 02:25 AM #450

@jaybate-1.0 Cal has, in the past, consistently got more NBA talent than Jay Wright. Only looking at wins and losses is short sighted.

May 22, 2018 05:34 AM #451

BShark said:

@jaybate-1.0 Cal has, in the past, consistently got more NBA talent than Jay Wright. Only looking at wins and losses is short sighted.

Not shortsighted at all.

Evidence based.

Quantitative.

Large N.

Reliable.

Coherent.

Not out of nowhere.

May 22, 2018 11:45 AM #452

jaybate 1.0 said:

Coherent.

Now this is funny.

May 27, 2018 12:33 PM #453

Well Doke now has like 3 days to decide whether he stays in or comes back. - - With him taking this long now after the combine to make the announcement I just think it's not looking good for the home team. Hope I'm wrong. Even if he comes back though I would still like to see him work and work hard in developing some kind of shot a liitle aways from the hoop not just the slam to help pull the defense out some from underneath. I think this year we are going to see when he catches down deep I think we are going to see a lot more double down on him to help out so he can't just drive the ball through like he did last year. The reason that I say that is as been mentioned is what we have heard our suspect outside shooting this year if we can't nock down the outside J from somebody or a couple of somebodies then other teams will be able to help om Doke more and force him to kick it back out - unlike last year.

On another note as anyone hear about Shammert from WSU - -de he hire an agent or did he say he was staying in the draft? ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

May 27, 2018 03:24 PM #454

@jayballer73

Shamet hired an agent so there is no going back for him. He is projected to be a late first round so he has no reason to go back, even if he could. FWIW, he worked out for the Warriors.

May 27, 2018 03:37 PM #455

@JayHawkFanToo Do you think he is 1st round NBA talent?

May 27, 2018 04:39 PM #456

@jayballer73

Considering how well he did at WSU, yes. He is a very good game manager with high basketball IQ that many who know him well say he is like a coach on the court. He is not athletic but he has decent size and can shoot from outside.

May 27, 2018 08:31 PM #457

@jayballer73 I think Shamet better hope he gets picked first round so he’s guaranteed a contract or he’ll another G league disappearing act, his numbers are average and is inconsistent shooting. He won’t be around long IMO.

May 28, 2018 03:48 AM #458

@kjayhawks

Why do you think his numbers are average and he is inconsistent? His numbers are better than those of Ron Baker and Fred VanVleet in their final year at WSU and both are playing in the NBA.

May 28, 2018 07:00 PM #459

@JayHawkFanToo Wrong Fred averaged 13 points, 4.5 rebounds and 5 assists during at WSU. Baker averaged 15 points, 4.5 rebounds and 2.5 assists. Shamet averages 15 points, 3 rebounds and 5 assists all while averaging less blocks and steals with more turnovers. Shamet basically was better in point average, not to mention Baker has averaged 15 minutes, 3 points in only 81 games played in his 2 year NBA career and probably is done when is contract is up or will be sent to the G league before that. VanVleet had a decent season averaging 20 minutes and 7 points this past year but I really don’t know comparing Shamet to these guys in which one wasn’t even drafted bodes well for him being great and sticking around the NBA, at least those of us with common sense that is.

May 28, 2018 07:56 PM #460

@kjayhawks To be fair, Baker's second season was marred by an orbital socket injury, and ended for him with shoulder surgery in Feb.

May 28, 2018 08:37 PM #461

@mayjay true but he want play much before that or the season before.

May 28, 2018 11:47 PM #462

@kjayhawks

No, my numbers are correct. Final season at WSU for junior Shamet, senior Baker and sophomore VanVlett.

  • Shamet - 14.9 ppg, 5.2 app, 3.2 rpg, .560 from 2 and .442 from 3
  • VanVleet - 12.2 ppg, 5.5 apg, 3.2 rpg, .396 from 2 and .381 from 3
  • Baker - 14.0 ppg, 3.2 apg, 4.8 rpg, .424 from 2 and .350 from 3

As I posted, the numbers for Shamet for his last season at WSU are better than those of Baker and VanVleet in their last seasons at WSU.

May 29, 2018 12:38 AM #463

@JayHawkFanToo besides they had better steals and less turnovers. You’d have a point if VanVleet or Baker were doing anything in the NBA, Shamet’s stats are only better in shooting, Rebounds are the same, assists are more, steals are more, blocks are more and turnovers are less for Fred. Being better in 3 of 8 stat columns doesn’t equal better seems how 5 is more than 3. Time will tell, I’ll get you some crow pie.

May 29, 2018 12:56 AM #464

@kjayhawks

So, you don’t think he will be drafted?

May 29, 2018 02:13 AM #465

@JayHawkFanToo I think he’ll get drafted late first round, early second just don’t believe he’ll be around long.

May 29, 2018 02:23 AM #466

Shamet has the advantage of being a PG (Baker is an undersized SG) and being bigger than Van Vleet. That size and positional difference affects his draft potential and overall prospect value.

May 29, 2018 06:49 PM #467

Danny Manning suffers another brutal loss this off-season as his would be Sr guard Crawford has elected to stay in the draft.

Makes sense after they signed a grad transfer guard not too long ago.

Danny's miracles are running dry

May 29, 2018 07:58 PM #468

Why hasn’t Dok made his intentions known publicly? Are there more tryouts in the next couple of days?

May 29, 2018 08:14 PM #469

@dylans The deadline to withdraw from the draft is tomorrow -- so we should know within 24 hrs or so. Hope the big boy is back.

May 29, 2018 09:22 PM #470

@HighEliteMajor Me too! Only reason I posted. Like Christmas Eve as a kid.

May 30, 2018 04:50 AM #471

@dylans

Last year Svi waited until 10 minutes or so from the deadline...just sayin’

May 30, 2018 05:41 AM #472

@JayHawkFanToo Good point. Dok’s potiental impact on next years team is greater than any player in recent memory, so I guess I’m on pins and needles.

May 30, 2018 12:00 PM #473

Donte Divencenzo stays in the draft. Big blow to Nova. No wonder Cremo went there

May 30, 2018 01:17 PM #474

BeddieKU23 said:

Donte Divencenzo stays in the draft. Big blow to Nova. No wonder Cremo went there

Yeah I feel this was set in stone when Cremo popped for them.

May 30, 2018 01:39 PM #475

@BShark

Absolutely, all falling into place now

May 30, 2018 02:27 PM #476

The only question now is if there will be any issues with Silvio. I think it is 80%-90% that he will be eligible and play; I would be surprised if he does not play. The way our judicial system works Silvio will be long gone before the FBI indictment makes it to trial.

May 30, 2018 03:09 PM #477

Reid Travis is withdrawing from the draft and will be grad transfer. Sounds like he is heading to Kentucky. Enormous addition for them. He would have been first team all PAC 12 next year.

May 30, 2018 05:23 PM #478

Omari Spellman staying in the draft. Great day.

May 30, 2018 05:25 PM #479

BShark said:

Omari Spellman staying in the draft. Great day.

Yes it is. Let the beatdown in Lawrence commence.

May 30, 2018 05:37 PM #480

Woodrow said:

Reid Travis is withdrawing from the draft and will be grad transfer. Sounds like he is heading to Kentucky. Enormous addition for them. He would have been first team all PAC 12 next year.

Nova is involved as well. Look for them to make a push now that Spellman is gone.

May 30, 2018 07:14 PM #481

A blow to Turgeon at Maryland. Kevin Huerter stays in the draft after seeing his stock go way up during the process. Couldn't happen to a better group of fans

May 30, 2018 07:16 PM #482

The forgotten Porter returns to Methzu

May 30, 2018 07:16 PM #483

Clemson's guard duo of Mitchell & Reed returns for their final season..

May 30, 2018 08:47 PM #484

BeddieKU23 said:

A blow to Turgeon at Maryland. Kevin Huerter stays in the draft after seeing his stock go way up during the process. Couldn't happen to a better group of fans

Not even going to be top 25 now. RIP

May 30, 2018 09:04 PM #485

@BeddieKU23 wasn't he (porter) predicted to go first round? I thought I saw that and couldn't figure that out!

May 30, 2018 09:20 PM #486

@Crimsonorblue22 This is Jontay. Projected late 1st or 2nd. Michael remains in the draft.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/23652357/jontay-porter-return-missouri-tigers-sophomore-season ↗

May 30, 2018 09:36 PM #487

@mayjay I wasn't to impressed w/him.

May 30, 2018 09:39 PM #488

@mayjay body fat % 13.85

May 30, 2018 11:31 PM #489

@mayjay

Jontay has lots of potential. He is tall, can rebound and can shoot from outside which makes him a stretch forward that the NBA seems to like nowadays...and he is still pretty young. I would think he would be selected in the first round based on potential alone but, with a good year at MU, he could definitely go lottery next year.

May 31, 2018 12:04 AM #490

Brian Bowen goes pro after the ncaa ruled him at minimum ineligible for next season. Ouch.

May 31, 2018 12:10 AM #491

Liddell Wigginton returns to Iowa St.

Wenyen Gabriel leaves Kentucky but PJ Washington returns. Ugh

Tyus Battle returns to Syracuse ensuring another bubble year in which they make the tourney and overachieve

Charles Matthews returns to Michigan. Huge for them.

Tyler Cook returns to Iowa

Ethan Happ returns to Wisconsin

May 31, 2018 12:42 AM #492

@BeddieKU23 Considering that Bowen was cleared by the NCAA of any direct involvement in the $19,500 received by his dad from Adidas, and that he already lost his freshman year after Louisville held him out, this does not bode well for Silvio.

May 31, 2018 02:00 AM #493

BeddieKU23 said:

Liddell Wigginton returns to Iowa St.

Wenyen Gabriel leaves Kentucky but PJ Washington returns. Ugh

Tyus Battle returns to Syracuse ensuring another bubble year in which they make the tourney and overachieve

Charles Matthews returns to Michigan. Huge for them.

Tyler Cook returns to Iowa

Ethan Happ returns to Wisconsin

Vanderbilt stayed in the draft too.

Surprised at players like Wigginton waiting until the last day.

May 31, 2018 02:18 AM #494

No reason to withdraw beforehand. Just hold out for someone to call up and give you a guarantee.

May 31, 2018 10:59 AM #495

@mayjay

It doesn't look good. I wonder what the basis was for ruling him to sit a 2nd year at minimum. Pretty crazy, not something I agree with and I'm not surprised this was the ruling

May 31, 2018 11:02 AM #496

@BShark

I'm glad we avoided the Vanderbilt fiasco. Watching his AAU games he had red flags galore.

May 31, 2018 03:06 PM #497

@BeddieKU23

Are we talking on court red flags or off the court red flags? On the court, Vanderbilt is a nice player. 6-8, athletic guy that can handle the ball a little, pass, shoot from the midrange and rebound. He's not a ball hog or anything. He never tapped into a lot of that at Kentucky, but he only played 14 games for Kentucky, so that's to be expected. He was grabbing almost 8 boards a game in just 17 minutes. KU could have used a rebounder like that last year. He missed so much time due to injury that its hard to say what he is or could have been.

May 31, 2018 04:11 PM #498

@justanotherfan

Both actually. Maybe not off-the-court issues in regards to eligibility concerns, more character concerns watching him play.

No doubt Vanderbilt is a talent, and built for the modern NBA if he can find a team that will invest in him. Is he really ready? I would say not even close. But its his decision to make. At Kentucky he was already over-recruited anyway.

May 31, 2018 04:12 PM #499

Crimsonorblue22 said:

@mayjay body fat % 13.85

On the other hand I heard on the pod cast today about Doke - he was at 7.59 body fat. - They said for somebody his size to be under 8 % body fat was just insane.

They brought up some interesting points today on the pod cast they said for instance : KU is not going to have Doke , they are not going to try to develop a jumper from him during the year, they may work with him in practice but they don't want him trying to shoot jumpers during the game. Kind of makes sense at this point , they know where they want him at KU and that is down low close to the rim. - -They are quite happy with his production last year.- Again he can work on developing his jumper during practice so come that next level

They also said They think the NBA they will not expect him to develop a shot. - - - hmmmm interesting. - they said the NBA realizes OK this is what we are getting they won't expect him for his jumper - they will rely more on the occasional pick and roll - but they are not going to be looking for him to try and shoot jumpers over Jo Jo and guys like that - they aren't depending on him for a lot of offense as again they realize what they are getting in Doke. - Interesting thoughts.

May 31, 2018 06:10 PM #500

@jayballer73

If the expectation from NBA folks is that he won't develop a shot, what is Azubuike returning to Lawrence to work on, exactly? That's not meant as an attack for you (or even a question, really). It's more of just me wondering.

If Azubuike isn't working on expanding his offensive game beyond dunks and short jumphooks, and if his conditioning is improved already, as indicated by the body fat numbers, then I don't know how he improves his draft stock with another year at KU.

@BeddieKU23

That makes some sense. Body language is important, though I will offer the caveat that judging body language and such in high school is difficult because of the talent disparity and role differences. A guy may be a high character, hard working player in high school as the leading scorer and superstar, but become frustrated and angry in college when asked to be a role player.

I myself was a role player in high school. One of the reasons why I had the opportunity to play in college (though I ultimately left the team after a semester for other reasons) when some of my other, more acclaimed high school teammates did not is because I was already used to being a role player. I was a good enough athlete to play in college, and I was able to step into that role. I wasn't trying to go from being a guy that got 15 shots a game to a guy that might only get one or two because I wasn't one of our top scorers in high school anyway. There was very little change for me. Our leading scorer (from high school) struggled a bit in college because he went from being "the man" to being a backup that was expected to just defend and screen for the top scorers.

Obviously, none of this means that a guy with a bad attitude is suddenly going to become a team first guy. It's just to point out that just because a guy is one way in high school or on the AAU circuit, doesn't mean that is who he will be in college on a different team with different expectations and responsibilities.

May 31, 2018 06:53 PM #501

@justanotherfan

I can't remember what game it was I saw of Vanderbilt on the circuit but it was hard to believe he was being reputed as a Top 10 talent at the time. I'm also aware that AAU ball is not the best setting to form judgement on kids so I always have to keep that in mind. What I saw of him was not flattering and it stuck with me. It didn't surprise me that he played a handful of games and then left Kentucky. But that's the Kentucky way. It also reminds me of my initial judgement. Maybe he's doing the best thing for his career. If he gets healthy and finds a team and develops he's certainly what the modern NBA wants from a hybrid wing/forward position. I can just imagine that if he ended up at KU and did this we would probably be a bit upset given he basically did nothing he was touted to do this season. Of course the injury played a big part of it. This would look like Diallo all over again.

Good backstory as well!

May 31, 2018 06:55 PM #502

The Martin twins plus big man Caroline returned to Nevada. With the returning talent, incoming freshman Jordan Brown and transfers this is a loaded squad. Top 5 good.

May 31, 2018 07:36 PM #503

@justanotherfan I wondered too. - -I just read another article just a couple of minutes ago and a Veteran NBA assistant from the Eastern division said the biggest things Doke needed to work on wasn.t on the offensive end BUT the defensive end. He said with all the pick and rolls and switching off a big needed to be able to learn how to defend the smaller guy - - he gave an example of some big ending up guarding Steph Curry in the playoffs making him pass the ball off I just can't remember the big's name.

He was also talking about in the NBA how bigs need to be able to dribble - -pass and then shoot also - -the writer said the sooner people come to realize the reason Doke came back wasn't because of the offensive end - or lack of a jumper - the sooner people realizer that the better off they will be - -it's mostly on the defensive end.

Their were obviously things they would like to see improve like most obvious - -his free throw shooting - -but then also like becoming more like 10 rebound per game player - possibly improving protecting the rim going like from 60 blocks to 100 blocks -- the assistant said that there is a place for a person like Doke just had these things to work on - - interesting

May 31, 2018 08:20 PM #504

BeddieKU23 said:

The Martin twins plus big man Caroline returned to Nevada. With the returning talent, incoming freshman Jordan Brown and transfers this is a loaded squad. Top 5 good.

This isn't meant to be a hot take, even though it will sound like one. Nevada, with those guys returning, is Final Four caliber good.

May 31, 2018 08:49 PM #505

Yep. Low key top 5 team.

Jun 01, 2018 10:49 PM #506

Here’s a weird one. Lagerald Vick withdrew from the draft. Methinks he’s going overseas and will enter the draft next year.

Jun 02, 2018 12:18 AM #507

@justanotherfan

Doke is still a below average rebounder and not nearly as good a rim protector as he could be, a result no doubt of his low (but improved) basketball IQ including his lack of positional awareness that makes him be at the wrong place more often than it should. There is little doubt that he will be much better in all these areas with an extra year and will be a much improved defender to go with his scoring skill at or near the basket.

Jun 02, 2018 12:30 AM #508

@FarmerJayhawk - according to a 247 article, LaLa said he was not open to playing overseas. She also said he was open to many things, including G League. But then, last spring, she also said he wasn’t returning to KU. I dunno if he’d improve this club or even see much playing time. He disappeared many times last year and drew the ire of HCBS...

Jun 02, 2018 02:02 AM #509

Good call. I’d welcome him back. Would immediately be our best outside shooter and maybe this process has lit a fire under him. His skillset is a perfect fit on this team.

Jun 02, 2018 03:09 AM #510

I don't recall us being in this situation so late in the game before. It was a foregone conclusion that Vick was gone and we had an excellent change at Langford. Now neither are the case. Despite there being some rumors of character issues Vick was no doubt an intregal part of our FF birth and was a huge part in beating Duke. History shows that the more returnees from a deep tournament run increase your chances greatly returning the next year. Vick coming back would once again put him in the national limelight due to how many games we have nationally broadcasted and would without a doubt be one of our best shooters and has a chance to move into a veteran/leadership roll for our young back court. I think a key concern is whether his return stunts the growth of our new recruits throughout the year? All those things aside I have a feeling that if coach wants him back his ass is gonna be on the roster next season and that solidifies our position as the most dynamic and deep roster in college ball next year. What a time to be alive.

Jun 02, 2018 03:45 AM #511

This would certainly help our three point shooting.

Jun 02, 2018 03:46 AM #512

Also per kusports.com his mom said she'd consider coming back if Self would have him.

Jun 02, 2018 03:48 AM #513

@FarmerJayhawk He's not eligible to return if he signed with an agent which I believe he did. I think initially he didn't. I hate to be pessimistic, but I'm afraid he's another early entry casualty who obviously has almost no future in the NBA.

Jun 02, 2018 03:50 AM #514

@wissox he didn’t. Otherwise they wouldn’t be talking about going to back to college.

Jun 02, 2018 03:55 AM #515

Self doesn’t want him back. It would be a miracle if he ended up back at KU.

Jun 02, 2018 04:18 AM #516

@Woodrow If self doesn't want him back, why would they schedule a meeting with him?

Jun 02, 2018 04:23 AM #517

@HawkChamp they scheduled a meeting?

Jun 02, 2018 04:27 AM #518

Ooooh a meeting was scheduled? That's some juicy info. Any sources you can post?

Jun 02, 2018 04:32 AM #519

I also know some of our more intelligent posters sometimes like to do mock conversations between Coach and Player about certain situations. Would love to see a hypothetical conversation about how this one might go down.

Jun 02, 2018 11:28 AM #520

He must have some significant baggage to not be wanted back if that is true.

Jun 02, 2018 01:40 PM #521

@SkinnyKansasDude

Coach, I wanna come back!

No.

Jun 02, 2018 02:42 PM #522

@dylans so creative, did you take drama in school?🤣 since Vick rarely talks, it would be that simple.

Jun 02, 2018 03:47 PM #523

Many of us speculated that there was some drama between Newman, and Svi last year. If I had to guess I would have to believe Vick played a big part in our chemistry problem last year? No one really knew what was going on BUT if Vick has been showed the door he must have played a part in our troubles last year? Just a guess... Maybe we should just wish him well and move on?

Jun 02, 2018 04:20 PM #524

@Statmachine I never believed that.

Jun 02, 2018 04:34 PM #525

Vick does have baggage and it's not really a secret. Vick was the antagonist in the Josh Jackson/Mackenzie Calvert case. He was the one Calvert threw a drink on because he was being an a-hole to her after their breakup.

Bill Self explained that Vick had little to no interest in stepping up to be a leader on the team next year when he would have been the only senior.

There's definitely enough supporting evidence out there for people that want to argue that Vick was the team cancer last season and KU is better off without him being forced into a leadership role he has no interest in.

Jun 02, 2018 05:19 PM #526

Vick doesn't have the mental makeup of a leader, it's not a choice. He can barely talk in interviews, it's very painful for him. Reminded me of a young Perry. That girl had a lot of problems!🤐

Jun 02, 2018 05:21 PM #527

Crimsonorblue22 said:

Vick doesn't have the mental makeup of a leader, it's not a choice. He can barely talk in interviews, it's very painful for him. Reminded me of a young Perry. That girl had a lot of problems!🤐

From someone who has dealt with it before, he appears to have anxiety and confidence issues.

Jun 02, 2018 07:02 PM #528

@HawkChamp who said they scheduled a meeting?

Jun 03, 2018 03:42 AM #529

@dylans Just like Anrio Adams ;)

Jun 03, 2018 03:45 AM #530

Also didn't Vick straight punch a girl in Memphis or something?

Jun 03, 2018 03:54 AM #531

@SkinnyKansasDude Once a Jayhawk always a Jayhawk, but dude wasn’t a boy scout. Maybe it’s time for a culture overhaul?

Jun 04, 2018 12:04 AM #532

Vick is a very private, shy personality. He would not have been a vocal leader, but he could be a helpful player.

Jun 04, 2018 12:15 AM #533

Vick could be a dynamic player. If it weren’t for the baggage, there is no doubt Self would want him back. He’s a huge talent that showed signs of potential stardom. Maybe this could be reconciled. His mom is very good with her approach.