🏀 KuBuckets Archive

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Wow. I am completely shocked. Wonder what Grimes and Dotson think about this....

Will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

Woodrow said:

Wow. I am completely shocked. Wonder what Grimes and Dotson think about this....

Will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

I don't think Dotson and Grimes are too worried. Zero chance Cunliffe plays now though and I bet Agbaji takes a RS.

!alt text ↗

But Charlie Moore already has #2!

BShark said:

Woodrow said:

Wow. I am completely shocked. Wonder what Grimes and Dotson think about this....

Will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

I don't think Dotson and Grimes are too worried. Zero chance Cunliffe plays now though and I bet Agbaji takes a RS.

Yea I agree with both. Sam has to be very disappointed. I think I’ve seem the word “stunner” about 5 different times on Twitter already. Really bizarre situation.

Gorilla72 said:

But Charlie Moore already has #2!

Vick has to change numbers and do summer school. Maybe he will reach some kind of a turning point. If he finds another gear watch out.

DOTSON, VICK, GRIMES, DEDRIC, DOKE.

BENCH: Garrett, KJ, Moore, Silvio

DEEP BENCH: Mitch, Cunliffe, McCormack, Agbaji

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD LAWD HAVE MERCY @jayballer73

Per Fran Fraschilla

"Had long talk with Bill Self about the Vick situation when we were in Canada. A great “addition” if he’s on Self’s page. Vick wasn’t reading same book last season."

Does that mean the pool is open?

Gunman said:

Does that mean the pool is open?

IT DOES.

🐦 View Tweet

http://www2.kusports.com/weblogs/tale-tait/2018/jun/29/lagerald-vick-to-return-to-kansas-for-se/ ↗

"Self, who flew to Memphis last week to meet with Vick and his mother, LaLa Vick, talked to his veteran guard again this week and laid out a list of undisclosed rules and stipulations that would need to be met in order for Vick to return.

After a couple of discussions and some time to think, both parties agreed that rejoining the Jayhawks would be the best thing for Vick. "

This will effect KJ. Wonder if we will hear from the outspoken Lawson Dad about this.

Woodrow said:

This will effect KJ. Wonder if we will hear from the outspoken Lawson Dad about this.

I could still see KJ start. Part of accepting Vick back maybe means he needs to come off the bench. Word around the program on KJ and Garrett is too positive for them to not get minutes, imo.

Going to be very interesting to see how things develop.

Wowza!

All this will work It's self out

Wow. I love this Self quote:

Yeah, I think it helps us," Self said of Vick's 3-point shooting prowess. "But that's not why he's coming back. He's coming back because he wants to make a commitment to being a great teammate, helping his teammates improve and helping the young guys. But if Lagerald plays like he's capable of playing, we will be a better 3-point shooting team."

I would love to see Vick work his ass off to grow as a leader and a positive influence. Everything i thought LeCobra would be last year is still achievable this year!

To me this is all positive. Vick is being allowed to come back because he has agreed to Self's conditions. In Vick we have a guy returning that will be playing his 4th year of college ball, knows the offense, can shoot 3's, can guard multiple positions, and is a freak athlete.

And Vick is going to get a diploma. That is a huge bonus for this young man who may or may not make a living playing professional basketball.

Rock Chalk.

@joeloveshawks Couldn’t have said it better. I’m all in on this. Some of us thought he was an all conference type player in the making. Maybe we see that. A guy with a second chance is thankful and has gained perspective.

Credit to his mom, too, for how she handled all of this.

WOW....Yahtsee!!!! I feel badly for Ogbaji(sp), though.

@KUSTEVE I think he was looking at a RS anyway.

@BShark We could do the two lineup thing, like Tucky did a few years back. We're deep as the ocean.

Best case scenario for everyone involved. Amazing. Happy to have him back under conditions. I expect a HUGE jump from him. A motivated Vick is scary.

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark We could do the two lineup thing, like Tucky did a few years back. We're deep as the ocean.

Key difference: Self is an actual coach. I'm not convinced with Calipari. LOL.

I beat Self only rolls 9 deep. Someone will be upset. Or Silvio won't be eligible... Stuff will work itself out. Expect 0 minutes from Agbaji, Mitch and Cunliffe. 10th guy is probably McCormack. But man yeah talk about a loaded roster.

We only go 10 deep for sure. I’m interested to see the minutes distribution. Team is versatile as hell. Interested in what a 5 guard switch everything lineup would look like with Grimes, Vick, Garrett, K.J. and Cunliffe would look like. Won’t happen, but it’s there lol.

On the flip side, you can go BIG with Grimes, Vick, K.J., Bi Dave and Doke.

Uber fast/athletic/big with Dotson, Moore, Grimes, K.J. and De Sousa.

Defensive team with Grimes, Garrett, K.J., Dedric and Doke.

Possibilities are endless with this group. Chemistry is going to be the key. And I think we have enough role players and good passers/playmakers to make that a non issue.

This team has the potential to legitimately be the best offensive and defensive team in the country. I wonder what Vegas odds look like now. Kentucky moved into best odds after Reid Travis committed, but I bet this puts us back in first.

Props to Self for making this happen and the Vick’s for being willing to make this work. A motivated Senior Vick is as good as landing a 5 star recruit. At least, I sure hope so.

I think this is a good move for all parties, obviously Vick has had his issues with Coach and gotten into trouble at times but I never liked the idea of giving up on him. This could shake up the line up, how many players will be in the rotation. Self has liked his 7 or 8 rotation most years but he have to play 9, which is good imo with our tough SOS. I’d put money on Agbaji redshirting and Mitch maybe smart to do so if DeSousa can go as well. Can Sam redshirt, even tho he sat out his transfer year? I honestly didn’t think he was going to get a ton of PT with or without Vick ether way. I’d say a line up of Dotson, Vick, Grimes, D Lawson and Doke is looking pretty good with K.J., Moore, DeSousa and Garrett getting most the bench play but I wouldn’t sleep on Garrett starting over Dotson at PG ether. I think Charlie will be the third option at the spot. Man this team team is easily as deep as coach Self has had here, right up there with 07 and 08.

FWIW, I think Grimes will end up with minutes at PG now just to keep him on the floor. Which means a battle throughout the season between Moore and Dotson. Might be as simple as riding the hit hand for that day.

Easily the deepest team we have ever had under Self. I honestly don’t know what to do. Selfs biggest issue coaching this team will be finding minutes for everyone.

Garrett might even struggle to see the floor if he doesn’t get his jumper up to standards this summer.

My brain hurts thinking of the options. I would pay money just to watch practices this year. Might have two top 10 teams playing each other everyday at practice this year.

@Kcmatt7 https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-odds-duke-kentucky-and-kansas-big-favorites-to-make-it-to-the-2019-final-four/ ↗ ↗

We were 6-1 odds b4 Vick, so I'll bet we'll be favored ahead of Tucky and Dook now.

@KUSTEVE I would think so.

@Kcmatt7 It feels like Xmas.

@kjayhawks I do think Sam could redshirt technically. He didn’t his first year. Would be crazy to have 3 redshirts... but not impossible. Self has to have a nonstop smile going right now. And, in theory, it would be smart for those three to redshirt and get their masters or have the option to be a grad transfer if that’s what they would like to do.

@KUSTEVE Bill has made it a routine of giving us a Christmas present late in the year. Guy always has an ace up his sleeve.

Cunliffe can RS, but he is more likely to transfer after this season than do that.

Woodrow said:

Wow. I am completely shocked. Wonder what Grimes and Dotson think about this....

Will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

I don't think this effects Dotson or Grimes at all. -- Vick played the 3 more then anything, and chances are he will share playing time at the 3 again. -- ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

BShark said:

Woodrow said:

Wow. I am completely shocked. Wonder what Grimes and Dotson think about this....

Will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

I don't think Dotson and Grimes are too worried. Zero chance Cunliffe plays now though and I bet Agbaji takes a RS.

You would think almost a certainly he would look to red shirt now

Gorilla72 said:

But Charlie Moore already has #2!

that's not gonna change - - Vick will have a different number

BShark said:

Gorilla72 said:

But Charlie Moore already has #2!

Vick has to change numbers and do summer school. Maybe he will reach some kind of a turning point. If he finds another gear watch out.

only needs 12 hours in Summer School to graduate - if he can get his head on right , this team is just insane - -need consistency from him though , no more disappearing acts in game time - -better defense

BShark said:

DOTSON, VICK, GRIMES, DEDRIC, DOKE.

BENCH: Garrett, KJ, Moore, Silvio

DEEP BENCH: Mitch, Cunliffe, McCormack, Agbaji

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD LAWD HAVE MERCY @jayballer73

LAWD HAVE MERCY IS RIGHT. - - these team has so many different combinations it can run out - - so , so , so , deep. just an complete 360 from last year. I feel this team can be so aggressive defensively I mean really get after it cause of their depth not having to worry so much about their foul situation. Thing is though Vick's starting is not a given, he is going to have to earn the spot , maybe the competition is what he needs - does give us that experience though for sure. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

jayballer73 said:

BShark said:

Gorilla72 said:

But Charlie Moore already has #2!

Vick has to change numbers and do summer school. Maybe he will reach some kind of a turning point. If he finds another gear watch out.

only needs 12 hours in Summer School to graduate - if he can get his head on right , this team is just insane - -need consistency from him though , no more disappearing acts in game time - -better defense

To graduate while still doing all his SR year work too right? Like, he was pretty behind.

@Woodrow K J has considered him self a guard yet he can play the 3 you might see KJ having backup at the 2 spot in certain situations , he can for sure can compete for the 3 - I'm sure Coach has told Vick that he is going to have to earn that spot. - -Coach is just not going to let him walk back in and just give him that position. - We shall see how it plays out - -crazy competition but what a great position to be in. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@BeddieKU23

LOL - - -WOWZA IS RIGHT - -MAYBE EVEN A WOWZA- - - - WOWZA LOL. -- ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@Kcmatt7 -- Sooooo , many options - - -combinations -it could be crazy.

I did hear the team voted

Crimsonorblue22 said:

I did hear the team voted

lol

KUSTEVE said:

@Kcmatt7 It feels like Xmas.

You mean it's not lmao. - - -I mean " - - JUMPIN - - -GEE - - HOSSA - - -FATS " - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@BShark

"I told him I’d sleep on it. Certainly I did,” Self said. “I feel not only is it the best choice for him, but us. I did it with total support from all his teammates.”

Did not see this one coming. Hopefully he can bump his shooting to 40% and be a defensive specialist.

Sounds to me like Vick had absolutely nowhere to go and he's completely at Self's mercy. This is a win-win situation for Self and Vick if there ever was one.

But it does have the stinch of the Bagley/Carter scenario. Biggest difference is there aren't any potential lottery picks vying for the same PT as Vick.

@jayballer73

I am sure you meant a 180 degree turn from last year. BTW, he needs 12 credit hours AFTER Summer school which is pretty dang good.

A couple things on this.

-Vick will have to earn everything. From his number to minutes to looks.

-If it doesn’t work, he’s gone. Degree or not. Nobody really knows how far away from a degree he is. That’s a FERPA violation. These things absolutely don’t leak in any concrete way. Anyone who says they know is party to a crime.

-From a basketball standpoint, this is a low risk, high reward play. I think we end up with a small guard, Grimes, Vick, Lawson, Doke playing most of the minutes.

-Along those lines, averages will be stupid. Anyone who cites an average without context doesn’t understand basketball. Ignore them. Look at who plays against different teams that play different styles. Yeah, it’ll take some work but none of you want to come across as morons, right?

-1-13, it’s the most talented squad in the country. Not sure anyone is that close. However, people don’t play 13. We’ll only play 9 at most: Moore, Dotson, Grimes, Vick, Garrett, Lawson, Lawson, Silvio, Doke.

-Vick “should” be better this season for a couple reasons. He’ll be able to plan exclusively as a guard/wing and has every incentive to do those things well plus be a good teammate. He immediately adds shooting and defensive ability. Otherwise he won’t play.

-Holy s#!+ we’re loaded.

Vick is the difference between a paper team and a real one.

Back when Brown found him, he was a future PG; then Self put him through the play-out-of-position at the 2-3 for 3 years. Board rats forget he is really a PG. Like Devonte and Tyshawn he is primed for a great 4th season at the point, after serving as domestique at the 2.

Vick at point would be cruel MUA most games!

Self will probably start out playing him as a sixth man at all perimeter positions to show Grimes and Dotson they aren’t ready.

jaybate 1.0 said:

Vick is the difference between a paper team and a real one.

Back when Brown found him, he was a future PG; then Self put him through the play-out-of-position at the 2-3 for 3 years. Board rats forget he is really a PG. Like Devonte and Tyshawn he is primed for a great 4th season at the point, after serving as domestique at the 2.

Vick at point would be cruel MUA most games!

Self will probably start out playing him as a sixth man at all perimeter positions to show Grimes and Dotson they aren’t ready.

Vick was never considered a PG. He was recruited as a 2/wing.

I'm happy. Him leaving was strange the way it went down. We're loaded.

@BShark
Nice edit...lol.

KUSTEVE said:

@BShark
Nice edit...lol.

Trying to be nice. But JB is definitely wrong on this one.

@FarmerJayhawk I'm not trying to be confrontational, but the 12 hours remaining for Vick to graduate was a quote from Self that was published on KUSPORTS: "After the summer session, Vick will be just 12 hours shy of graduating, Self said."Perhaps I am ignorant, but I wouldn't think it would make any of us guilty of any crime by quoting what our head coach said.

@BShark I never thought Vick had the handles to play point. Just my opinion.

There's an empty seat at scorer's table.
Life is a good.

Two months ago we had lost all five starters.
The Board was expressing nervousness.
The continuation of The Streak looked weak.

Today we have 40% of the starters returning.
The Board is on board and happy and supportive.
The Team has been Tweeked, The Streak may peak.

Does it get any better than this in the off season? RCJHK!

!alt text ↗

Who else votes to skip the football season and just start our D1 basketball season in August? For the first time ever, I'm thinking basketball in the summer, not KU football. I've got our starters as Dok, Dedric, Vick, Grimes and a PG to be determined by fall practice. If KJ or someone else beats Vick for the start at the 3 fine, but until then Vick's my guy. Vick's big game experience is going to be important early in the season, i,e, Michigan State. Another season of leaving the opponents open-mouthed on defense when Vick slips along the baseline for another backdoor jam. Grimes showed during the FIBA tournament that he looks to pass to his teammates, so I expect to see Grimes getting many assists to Vick. By the way, Coach Self successfully juggled playing time for the U18 team that was loaded with talent. I did think he took advantage of the situation and played Grimes, Robinson-Earl and Hurt together a lot. RCJHB 2018-19

@stoptheflop Man oh man, I like the way you think.

Just for discussion purposes... Anyone see this as possibly being a negative. Vick played 30-35 minutes a game last year had the green light and everything. Now he’s walking into a situation where he will get let’s say 20 minutes a game and his shot selection will have to change as well as his defensive intensity / effort. I could easily see a situation where Vick gets into the season and becomes a “bad seed” ( for lack of better term) in the locker room.

I know most think this could only be a positive but I’m not sold on that. Chemistry is a huge X factor when trying to cut nets down.

@Woodrow No, because Self laid out a bunch of conditions for Vick to return and if Vick doesn't meet those conditions, Self will boot him off the team.

@Woodrow I actually see it as more the opposite. A guy who was ushered to the door. Who now has come back on the coach’s terms. Who sees that he needs to perform on the court and in the locker room to get what he wants. It’s as moment that forges maturity — or as @Texas-Hawk-10 said, he’s gone. I think this is a “trust Self” moment.

@Woodrow Coach Self knows his players better than any of us and I trust he took all of Vick's traits into account when he invited him back to the team. I like Vick and like that he will continue to be the third or fourth scoring option when he's on the court, even with our much younger personnel. Dedric, Grimes, Dok and PG will be the offensive focus, with Vick positioning himself for the open 3 or a pass at the rim. Brilliant, just brilliant. Coach likely has a plan for Vick to work on the skills that the NBA found deficient. Vick will be the icing flower on the birthday cake that everyone keeps eyeing.

@Woodrow

I posted before that it would be difficult to pass on a good 3 point shooter and a starter that played over 30 mpg on the team that made it to the Final Four. I also posted that if he comes back he will be on a short leash which also appears to be true.

More to your point, worst case scenario, he gets suspended from the team but stays in school and graduates in December since he will need only 12 credit after Summer school, something I am sure Coach Self has taken into consideration. Best case, he explodes and leads KU to a National title and plays himself into the draft with a real chance this go around and a fresh college degree to boot. Not that much and an easily mitigable risk and potentially a big reward.

KUSTEVE said:

@FarmerJayhawk I'm not trying to be confrontational, but the 12 hours remaining for Vick to graduate was a quote from Self that was published on KUSPORTS: "After the summer session, Vick will be just 12 hours shy of graduating, Self said."Perhaps I am ignorant, but I wouldn't think it would make any of us guilty of any crime by quoting what our head coach said.

Oh yeah, my mistake. That’s what I get for skimming after one too many last night haha

@stoptheflop na, I'm voting no -- Call me a sadist I guess , go ahead tell me I am - -it's ok but I still want my football Season I'm just an overall College sports junkie. I'll back my teams no matter how bad it gets.

Please don't think I'm trying to insinuate this about you or anyone here but like I say I'll back my teams no matter what if they are really good OR really bad that's a true fan - not a closet bandwagon fan who wants to cheer when a team is only good.

Again I am for sure not saying your that way or anyone here is that way BUT there are people that ARE that way -I have no time for them .Maybe that's why I look forward to the basketball season every year cause I know we will ALWAYS compete and challenge. - -Yet I love my College football I'll be right there either at the home games every Saturday or at home watching the boys on TV or listening on the radio - -I'll still be there.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about. The year that little pig school - -K- Straight - you know the one. - -President Nixon's favorite High School.- -Anyways the year they finally broke our streak of straight wins at Allen Filed House West - -what was it 22? - -23? - Well that year when they beat us - all the little mice ran to their closets - - -foot lockers brush the moth balls off that store musty K-Straight gear put them on thumped their little mousy chests talking all kinds of smack. - -I just laughed said year strut your shit - beat your little purple chest cause it will be another 23 years before you can do it again lmao. - -THAT'S what I'm talking about, cause the following year they had to scurry and put their gear back away when we whupped their ass again. - THAT'S the true definition of a CLOSET FAN - -BANDWAGON FAN

So yes please I'll go ahead and struggle through football but let me watch them play it out please - -good ol College Junkie lol - -OR Sadist - whichever lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

I'll watch it too. Go to a few games, those kids work hard too. I have a few favorites.

@HighEliteMajor "I think this is a “trust Self” moment."

I am very impressed with how many of these you have been finding. You changing the colors of your lenses?

This is one of those "Self moments." This is one more action showing Self has his players' back. He pretty much wrote off Vick, and not just because Vick announced he was leaving. Vick didn't seem to relate to Self last year... we all saw that. Not only did Vick hurt himself, he hurt his teammates because he wasn't playing anywhere near his capabilities.

I'm optimistic about this move, and I'm glad to see our last scholarship go to Vick. Yes... he didn't step up last year. But he's young and young players often need time to sort themselves out. Vick really didn't need to sort his game out much, it was mostly himself that needed the help!

As much as Self wants to help his players, I don't think he would have taken back Vick if he didn't feel very sure that Vick was 100% reformed!

I'm pretty sure I have an idea on how Self left things with Vick when he left. Self told him what he would need from him if he wanted to come back. What he needed from Vick was for Vick to grow up considerably. A tiny taste of the big world outside of the fairytale of Lawrence, along with the harsh reality that he hasn't created a solid path to make a living in basketball yet surely helped Vick see the light.

This may be the news that will help us make the Final Four two years in a row! Who knows?! But I have faith in Self that he is bringing Vick back under the right conditions.

We will be looking for offense this coming year, especially from trey. If Vick really gets near his capabilities, he could very well lead the team in scoring!

Welcome back, Vick!

@jayballer73 I'll come around a little bit when fall practice starts and we start getting some new information. I just feel sorry for our football players who put their hearts and souls into practices and games and get very little in return. Seeing less than 10,000 fans in Memorial Stadium is heartbreaking. I'm glad you still support the football team. I'll try to be a better fan and find something to be positive about.

@drgnslayr I also don't think self would have him back if the team didn't want him back

@mayjay Not at all, still clear as I can get them. As I've always said, wouldn't trade him for any other coach in the country. Ah, but when the bullets start flyin' around here, reminders of comments past are fleeting.

@jayballer73 Me too! You know what I'm most excited about???? The UNIFORMS!! How many combos can we have? Red helmet, blue jersey, blue pants?? No, no wait .. White helmet, red jersey, white pants??? But that's not the best. Blue helmet, white jersey, white pants! A big WOW is all I can say!!! It is so unbelievably incredible!! Every weekend, something new! Metallic? I'm in!!!!!

Sorry, just shoot me now.

Alright KU fans, I heard about Vick coming back yesterday and I was, to be honest, kind of dreading it. I didn't want him to come back after he had left the program. I still feel like he might screw up the chemistry of the team. The jury is still out on that. But, having read the quotes and the posts on here I think it could be a good thing. If Vick plays ball, so to speak, on and off the court and fully buys into what Self wants, this team will be so deep and so talented from the first tip of the first game until the end of the season. Im not predicting anything but it is not out of the realm of possibility that we could see another final four in '19.

HighEliteMajor said:

@jayballer73 Me too! You know what I'm most excited about???? The UNIFORMS!! How many combos can we have? Red helmet, blue jersey, blue pants?? No, no wait .. White helmet, red jersey, white pants??? But that's not the best. Blue helmet, white jersey, white pants! A big WOW is all I can say!!! It is so unbelievably incredible!! Every weekend, something new! Metallic? I'm in!!!!!

Sorry, just shoot me now.

Na I said call me a sadist - -not sadistic lol - - Besides I need to save my bullets for important things - - whoaaaaaa who the hell said that lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

@jayballer73 I used to really look forward to FB season .. now I dread it. It's beyond bad. Someone deliver us from our unique version of purgatory ...

As far as this whole Vick thing , thing is If Coach Self is willing to give him a 2nd - -3rd chance then so am I. - I fully trust in Coach - -not that it matters my voice isn't squat - they don't ask my opinion and smart not to - -cause I'm wrong - - wrong a lot - -but if he is willing to allow him back then I
'm good with it.

The way I see this , I'm far from perfect, I know I've made mistakes through my life. I done wrong at times especially during early years I'm sure just about everyone here at one point and time has -I'm sure that just about everyone here has at one point slacked whether it be at work - - or younger at school work - -or in some kind of practice - -point is we all make mistakes throughout our lives - thank GOD for the land of opportunity forgiveness and 2nd chances. - Last time I knew their was only one perfect person and he isn't walking this earth right now. - -So I'm good with Vick coming back

HighEliteMajor said:

@jayballer73 I used to really look forward to FB season .. now I dread it. It's beyond bad. Someone deliver us from our unique version of purgatory ...

Ya I understand - - it's hard and frustrating for me at times - -but I can't give up

I don't think KJ can beat out Vick. I think it's going to be Charlie/Grimes/Vick/Dedric/Doke at the beginning of the season, with Dotson moving into Charlie's spot as Dotson gets his sea legs under him. Our 2nd team would be at least a Sweet 16 team...geez. For all the criticism Bill took last year for leaving his roster short with the transfers, it sure looks pretty ingenious now.

@KUSTEVE Imagine if he convinces 3 players to redshirt....

Kcmatt7 said:

@KUSTEVE Imagine if he convinces 3 players to redshirt....

I don't think they want to tie up scholarships that long, but it would be crazy.

@BShark probably not, but it would also give them a chance to grad transfer later if we decided it was time to move on.

Found a pretty decent article written by Matt Tait today , Was talking about Vick's return , and there was at one point where he pretty much echoed what I said after I heard about Vick's return. he said:

" Even with his experience not so sure that it's a given you just plug him in automatically in the starting line up.- He was saying so many people just wanting to automatically throw him in. - but he is not so sure- -( this is what I've been trying to say.) Matt says if he EARNS the spot through hard work and good attitude THEN it will be hard to keep him out of the starting line up. BUT Matt says he doesn't get the sense that his experience and Veteran status will be enough to compel Coach Self to make him a starter automatically for the get go' Something I've said - -I just don't think Vick just struts in and just BAM automatically takes his spot back with out earning it he is going to have to beat others out - -only right.

Matt says he is going to have to win the job and part of winning the job is going to be directly tied to his attitude and commitment in PRACTICE along on how he handles himself away from the basketball side of things.

Pretty much I've been telling others - Vick has a long road ahead of him- He has to prove this was a good decision - - come compete - -battle and have his head on right , at all times - if he does he could have a monster season

Then on another note , they was talking about red shirt possibilities for the up coming season and I guess Agbaji told reporters while working the camp at Washburn that he would be open to red shirting this season. - -he said I'd be fine with it , Anything I can do to help the program and better myself. - Sounds like a pretty level headed kid - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

BShark said:

jaybate 1.0 said:

Vick is the difference between a paper team and a real one.

Back when Brown found him, he was a future PG; then Self put him through the play-out-of-position at the 2-3 for 3 years. Board rats forget he is really a PG. Like Devonte and Tyshawn he is primed for a great 4th season at the point, after serving as domestique at the 2.

Vick at point would be cruel MUA most games!

Self will probably start out playing him as a sixth man at all perimeter positions to show Grimes and Dotson they aren’t ready.

Vick was never considered a PG. He was recruited as a 2/wing.

——————

Evidence please.

Next.

jaybate 1.0 said:

BShark said:

jaybate 1.0 said:

Vick is the difference between a paper team and a real one.

Back when Brown found him, he was a future PG; then Self put him through the play-out-of-position at the 2-3 for 3 years. Board rats forget he is really a PG. Like Devonte and Tyshawn he is primed for a great 4th season at the point, after serving as domestique at the 2.

Vick at point would be cruel MUA most games!

Self will probably start out playing him as a sixth man at all perimeter positions to show Grimes and Dotson they aren’t ready.

Vick was never considered a PG. He was recruited as a 2/wing.

——————

Evidence please.

Next.

Man, you’re too smart to give me such an easy one. KU announced him as a 2 when he signed. https://kuathletics.com/news/2015/6/2/MBB_0602155530.aspx ↗

jaybate 1.0 said:

BShark said:

jaybate 1.0 said:

Vick is the difference between a paper team and a real one.

Back when Brown found him, he was a future PG; then Self put him through the play-out-of-position at the 2-3 for 3 years. Board rats forget he is really a PG. Like Devonte and Tyshawn he is primed for a great 4th season at the point, after serving as domestique at the 2.

Vick at point would be cruel MUA most games!

Self will probably start out playing him as a sixth man at all perimeter positions to show Grimes and Dotson they aren’t ready.

Vick was never considered a PG. He was recruited as a 2/wing.

——————

Evidence please.

Next.

Every article and recruiting service and mention of him. I challenge you to find a single article or quote from Self calling him a PG.

I'll humor you though.

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2015/lagerald-vick-6055 ↗

https://247sports.com/Player/Lagerald-Vick-75845//high-school-130051 ↗

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/202794/lagerald-vick ↗

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article22932219.html ↗

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/06/02/lagerald-vick-kansas-recruiting-2015-reclassifies ↗

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2015/may/17/lagerald-vick-commits-kansas/ ↗

Here is even an article from when he committed to SMU: https://smu.rivals.com/news/breaking-3-star-sg-lagerald-vick-commits-to-smu-reclassifies-to-2016-free ↗

@jaybate-1.0 Did you see Vick's handles last year, worse than EJ's who was listed as a PG coming out of HS. Vick was also listed as a shooting guard by every major recruiting service. Are you saying that all the recruiting sites were lying to everyone about what position Vick played because the evidence sure doesn't point that way.

Vick gives KU the option to go big or small now because you have another guy that can play multiple positions.

Grimes can slide over to the point and you go big with Grimes, Vick, KJ, Dedric and Doke. Also, that lineup is nasty.

You can go small with Dotson, Grimes, Vick, KJ and Dedric. That could be a starting lineup.

You can mix and match (Moore, Dotson, Vick, Dedric, Big Dave) or go super small (Moore, Dotson, Grimes, Vick, KJ) if a team ever trots out a lineup with five perimeter oriented players. Just lots of flexibility with Vick here.

I am guessing part of Self's conversation with him was that he won't be a starter this year. Grimes is the superior player, and KJ makes a lot of lineups work with his defensive potential. Vick returns to being a role player off the bench, where he could reach his full potential.

@justanotherfan Isn't Dok a guaranteed starter? Coach Self sure seems to like Dok as a starter. Dok was starting as a very raw freshman until he got hurt.

stoptheflop said:

@justanotherfan Isn't Dok a guaranteed starter? Coach Self sure seems to like Dok as a starter. Dok was starting as a very raw freshman until he got hurt.

This is the first time Self has had options.

That said, I think Doke starts.

Hell ya Doke starts. zero chance he doesn't.

@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 - October 1, 2017 "Of Vick, KU coach Bill Self said: 'He can do a lot of things. His stroke has gotten a lot better. Legerald can play point guard I think because he's so fast and he's a good ball handler. He's not a point guard but he can certainly take pressure off guys when Devonte is not in the game.' "

So Self did mention him at point guard. A mention.

Very interesting to hear Self before last season .. "“There’s a lot of things to like about this game,” added Self, who said Vick has been KU’s best player “from maybe the beginning of the summer (to now).”

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article176500271.html#storylink=cpy ↗

@HighEliteMajor Preseason fluff as it turns out. Which...is why I do want to see Dedric in action at this level. It is a mention though, which was my only qualifier. I mean, kind of a mention? Self also very firmly states Vick isn't a PG.

I feel there is much more evidence that Vick is simply not a PG. If he were capable, Self would play him at that spot. Also lots of empirical evidence.

Interesting...

Soren Petro
‏Verified account @SorenPetro

JESSE NEWELL: Some Kansas players were told a couple of months ago that Vick was gone. Now they’re stuck there. There could be a couple guys on the team that wish they could go elsewhere now.

@BShark I was much more interested in the discussions about Vick heading into last season. He was my pick to be our best player last season. I think this could be a huge game changer having him back.

I was just pointing out the "mention."

BShark said:

Interesting...

Soren Petro
‏Verified account @SorenPetro

JESSE NEWELL: Some Kansas players were told a couple of months ago that Vick was gone. Now they’re stuck there. There could be a couple guys on the team that wish they could go elsewhere now.

I saw this as well. I think Cunliffe is one guy who might have transferred again and just lost a year of eligibility, but I’m not sure who else he would be talking about...

HighEliteMajor said:

@BShark I was much more interested in the discussions about Vick heading into last season. He was my pick to be our best player last season. I think this could be a huge game changer having him back.

I was just pointing out the "mention."

"He can play point guard I think" "He's not a point guard"

Still, it is a mention. And honestly in my brief look earlier I couldn't find a single one, but I didn't look terribly hard. Much more on him being a 2 guard plus he has played exclusively 2-4 under Self.

If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is "primed for a great 4th season at the point". Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.

Woodrow said:

BShark said:

Interesting...

Soren Petro
‏Verified account @SorenPetro

JESSE NEWELL: Some Kansas players were told a couple of months ago that Vick was gone. Now they’re stuck there. There could be a couple guys on the team that wish they could go elsewhere now.

I saw this as well. I think Cunliffe is one guy who might have transferred again and just lost a year of eligibility, but I’m not sure who else he would be talking about...

Possibly Garrett, but he doesn't seem like the type.

I'm going to listen to the entire Newell segment now and see if there are more nuggets.

BShark said:

If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is "primed for a great 4th season at the point". Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.

I don't think your gonna have to be worrying about conceding anything buddy - -Vick will not be playing any PG - not even close for his Senior year. - If he does you will then see me become the pope in the near future lol.

@stoptheflop

Guaranteed? No.

Probable? Yes.

The most likely starting lineup is Dotson-Grimes-KJ-Dedric-Doke.

I could certainly see some other lineups (swap Moore for Dotson above, or swap Vick for KJ above, or both), but I think Doke factors in because he is such a big matchup advantage against most teams.

Of course, you still have De Sousa in the mix, and I could certainly see him mixed into that, but I can't see him starting over Dedric. Grimes is just too talented not to play. I think KJ forces his way into the lineup also.

The only guys that probably are disappointed about Vick's return are Cunliffe and Agbaji. Agbaji almost certainly won't see much, if any action this year now. Cunliffe saw his chances at minutes sliced in half. But I don't think anyone else would have changed their minds.

And ultimately, I don't think Self is in the same situation as Coach K was with Carter because everyone that did come to KU already knew that KU was pursuing Romeo Langford hard. So there was a scenario where Langford picks KU rather than Indiana and both Cunliffe and Agbaji are in the same position they are in now.

Maybe Cunliffe would have transferred at the end of the Spring Semester, but he would have had to transfer down to D2 to play immediately, otherwise he loses a whole year of eligibility. Plus, Cunliffe still could transfer out and be eligible to play at the D2 level.

The Agbaji situation is more straightforward to me. He picked KU knowing Grimes was coming, Langford was being recruited, and Cunliffe was already here. He knew that he was behind Grimes and would be behind Langford. When Agbaji picked KU, there was no sign that Vick was even contemplating leaving (Agbaji declared in February). It wasn't even assured that Newman was leaving.

I could see guys being disappointed that they have thought for two months that they would be getting more time with Vick (and Langford) out of the picture, but I don't think they were misled at the time of their decisions because the facts at the time they made their choices had Vick still very much in the picture.

I listened to the Newell segment. All conjecture. Nothing concrete. Not like he heard something from a player. More Petro just trying to stir the pot, imo.

The team voted to let him come back. Bill said there will be rules and stipulations for his return. We were looking to add someone anyways, so pissing off players with playing time issues isn't any different than if we had recruited Langford.

I see no issues with anyone other than Vick and whether or not he becomes the player and teammate that he agreed to be this season. But his leash is probably amazingly short and if he even steps a little bit out of line, no doubt he is gone.

Lol Petro just keeps blaming Vick for JJs car incident. And saying how Self bringing him back could lead to the rest of the team having discipline issues. Really just kind of a poor segment. When Petro gets on his soapbox, I usually change the station.

IMO, this is exactly the right move. Bringing back Vick on a short leash is better than adding a 5* recruit.

@HighEliteMajor So you're evidence of Vick being a PG is a quote from Self last season when KU had only 1 PG on the roster. The only reason Vick would've ever seen a minute a PG last year would've been as Newman's back up had Graham gotten injured at some point.

There is zero video evidence to suggest Vick is capable of running point. His handles are worse than EJ's when he was forced to play out of position. Lagerald Vick at point would be an absolute disaster. He is also by far the worst ball handler among the perimeter players who will see relevant minutes next season.

@Kcmatt7 Vick was the fuel in that incident because Vick and Calvert were dating at one point and the incident happened pretty soon after they broke up. Vick was with another girl rubbing that new relationship in Calvert's face afrer Vick realized Calvert was there. I said it then and I'll say it again, Lagerald Vick being an a-hole to Calvert is what caused that whole situation to explode.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Everyone on this site knows this.

@Texas-Hawk-10 It was more the repetition on the segment that I was referring to. He probably brought the incident up 10X

Lots of players could play PG but they don’t. Garret actually played PG in HS and was POY in Texas playing at that position and did not play PG at KU; I can see him playing PG before Vick. If Vick plays PG at KU, the team is in serious trouble.

@Texas-Hawk-10 What planet are you on? Thanks for the useless lecture though. No, I don't think Vick will ever play point guard. I never said that, of course. But that's ok.

Of course, for those following along, which might be this entire board minus one, I simply quoted Bill Self, which included the part where he said Vick is not a point guard. And the point of the quote is that Bill Self, his words, mentioned that Vick could "can play point guard." This was related to posts above that said Vick had never been mentioned in that area. And it seemed worthy given the discussion.

@BShark I was thinking Agbaji might be one that JN thinks might wish he were somewhere else?

@Hawk8086 Sam, if anyone.

@Hawk8086

Agbaji indicated he had no problem red shirting since he will in all likelihood be a 4 year player and an extra year gives him a chance to possibly get a Masters as well...all paid for...

Garrett?

@HighEliteMajor

Coach Self seems to like Garret, particularly the way he plays defense. He will get decent minutes.

Catching up on a lot of threads tonight. Sure seems like the hot weather is making a number of people pretty over-sensitive, as well as nit-picky. Have a cold one, everyone, and let's chill!

Next season by minutes (only counted for games that the players actually play in, which is why the total minutes are more than 200):

Dedric - 30

Grimes - 28

Vick - 24

Dotson - 23

Doke - 22

Moore - 20

KJ - 19

De Sousa - 18

Garrett - 18

McCormack - 6

Lightfoot - 6

Cunliffe - 4

Teahan - 2

Elliot - 2

Luinstra - 2

Agbaji - RS

JayHawkFanToo said:

@Hawk8086

Agbaji indicated he had no problem red shirting since he will in all likelihood be a 4 year player and an extra year gives him a chance to possibly get a Masters as well...all paid for...

Ahhh. … I do not remember reading this.....would seem to make it more likely now, for sure.

@KirkIsMyHinrich That is an excellent prediction, although as the president of the Charlie Moore Fan Club, I was thinking it would be Charlie at 24 minutes, and Cunliffe redshirts.

@Kcmatt7 and do we know if that vote was unanimous?

@mayjay Are you calling me oversensative? 😉

I saw a sign that said: Today's forecast...just stay inside.

@Fightsongwriter Who, me? calling someone oversensitive? I would know --it is in my "takes one to know one" catalog. It is amazing how easy it is to see that mote in someone else's eye....

@BShark

Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They don’t lead me to that conclusion at all.

Frank Mason. Tyshawn Taylor.

See at @HighEliteMajor’s reference to Self’s comments on Vic, a player LB originally reputedly viewed as a PG prospect. LB and Self are HOF coaches. The links are to recruiting stories. Do you not see the difference?

Next, Self often plays players at other positions to round out their games and to get them on the floor with more experienced players at the position Self plans to play them at eventually.

Why does contemplating Vick at the point this year, at least swinging 1-2 the way Bill Self and Larry Brown have contemplated him stress you into inflexible thinking mode denying the realities of Bill and LB?

Vick likely would be a very effective point for certain kinds of schemes, especially for a team playing through a lot of big men, because of his stretching trey gun and because he is tall enough to make the entry pass “over the top” and the lob from wing, wing point, or point positions. Also, Vick would be ideal for long rebounding of all the treys our opponents will be taking in the trey ball era, especially against a team loaded with bigs. Finally, Vick with Moore as a credible Backup and part time tandem mate would be the best of all possible worlds. Moore could handle any short points too fast for Vick and with Vick and Moore in simultaneously it would KEEP OPPONENTS GUESSING WHICH WOULD INITIATE THE OFFENCE.

You seem to be being disputatious for no reason.

Come in. The water is fine.

Texas Hawk 10 said:

@jaybate-1.0 Did you see Vick's handles last year, worse than EJ's who was listed as a PG coming out of HS. Vick was also listed as a shooting guard by every major recruiting service. Are you saying that all the recruiting sites were lying to everyone about what position Vick played because the evidence sure doesn't point that way.

—————

No, I’m saying Bill and LB think he has point guard potential and they trump the nobs you refer to. 😀

When Bill said he wasn’t a PG he was apparently saying yet, and in any conventional sense.

Next, Vick looked frustrated part of last season. The guy clearly wants to play the point and likely came to KU at Larry’s suggestion to do so, when things got sticky in Dallas for whatever reason.

Vick is a stunning talent. Board rats have to forget this bad handles nonsense. Tyshawn, Frank, EJ all had bad handles. Handles come with development. Handles often look bad when you are playing out of position. Vick has Speed like TT. An after burner like Frank. A trey gun like Devonte. Taller than any pg we’ve had. Able to play baseline or high against a zone. Able to guard anyone on the perimeter. He mastered the 2 last season before and after he went in his funk with Self’s toughening box time and his leg dragging injury.

Vick’s weakness is not handles. It’s his focus and sustaining it. It’s his difficulty with adopting and controlling command presence to lead. Self apparently questioned all of that and dared him to become what he wasn’t, and Vick cracked for a while. Big deal. Self cracks guys all the time.

This team desperately needs Vick and he needs them.

Vick will play some point for sure. The question is how much? A lot or a little. It depends on Vick deciding if he wants to make the ultimate sacrifice and become a team leader PG between his ears, not just below the neck. Becoming a leader is very tough for some.

Vick can help the team as a domestique 2 again. But he can make it great if he were to become the point that Larry foresaw.

Vick may fail the test. He appears to be very idiosyncratic. But great talent that coincidentally would be exactly what the team needs; that kind of player has to be gambled on for the team to reach its full potential.

Self tends to take such risk.

BShark said:

If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is "primed for a great 4th season at the point". Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.

Vick wing point initiated last season, brought the ball up some, and guarded everyone. He was a good passer. He can get to the rim. He will fight a buzz saw. And he can shoot outside, when not in a funk.

His defense guards ties he starts somewhere.

His shot alone guaranties he wing point initiates a lot this season.

If he learns command presence he IS the PG, and we put up with him learning to run a team but if he can’t get control of his appearance, body language and stability, then he will be on the wing.

jayballer73 said:

BShark said:

If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is "primed for a great 4th season at the point". Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.

I don't think your gonna have to be worrying about conceding anything buddy - -Vick will not be playing any PG - not even close for his Senior year. - If he does you will then see me become the pope in the near future lol.

————————

Hail Mary

I heard all this same talk, when Self went with Tyshawn.

Never happen.

Then he went with him.

Never work. Bad handles.

Then he handled.

Never work. Too soft and sensy.

Then he grew up.

Not a good enough shooter.

Then he shot 40% most of the season.

Won’t last.

Then he lead the team to the Finals.

Won’t make it in the pros.

Lasted a few years and done.

See, I told you so.

There are great players.

Some pass the eye test and create comfort.

Some are “different” and trigger discomfort.

Tyshawn Taylor wasn’t a conventional point guard that made fans comfortable. He took a lot of on the job training. But for that team he was the perfect point guard. They got to the finals and would have beaten any non stack team for the ring.

Self probably would rather have had a conventional PG that could. Make the team better than Tyshawn could. But he didn’t have one.

Looking at this season, whether Vick plays point depends on whether Self has someone more conventional that by season’s end will make the team better than taking a big gamble on Vick learning to lead would make the team.

Self doesn’t take the lower risk approach unless it leads somewhere better.

Vick at point makes this team the best it could be, if Vick can master himself.

Self has a tough call.

Everyone wants Vick “on a short leash” taking the treys and being what they already know—the domestique 2. They want Vick to be better at what they know.

Fans always want more of what they know.

They didn’t want the highschool 2 Frank from Towson at KU, much less the point.

They didn’t the highschool 2 Marquette decommit Tyshawn as starting point.

And so on

Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.

Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.

Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.

jaybate 1.0 said:

@BShark

Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They don’t lead me to that conclusion at all.

Frank Mason. Tyshawn Taylor.

See at @HighEliteMajor’s reference to Self’s comments on Vic, a player LB originally reputedly viewed as a PG prospect. LB and Self are HOF coaches. The links are to recruiting stories. Do you not see the difference?

Next, Self often plays players at other positions to round out their games and to get them on the floor with more experienced players at the position Self plans to play them at eventually.

Why does contemplating Vick at the point this year, at least swinging 1-2 the way Bill Self and Larry Brown have contemplated him stress you into inflexible thinking mode denying the realities of Bill and LB?

Vick likely would be a very effective point for certain kinds of schemes, especially for a team playing through a lot of big men, because of his stretching trey gun and because he is tall enough to make the entry pass “over the top” and the lob from wing, wing point, or point positions. Also, Vick would be ideal for long rebounding of all the treys our opponents will be taking in the trey ball era, especially against a team loaded with bigs. Finally, Vick with Moore as a credible Backup and part time tandem mate would be the best of all possible worlds. Moore could handle any short points too fast for Vick and with Vick and Moore in simultaneously it would KEEP OPPONENTS GUESSING WHICH WOULD INITIATE THE OFFENCE.

You seem to be being disputatious for no reason.

Come in. The water is fine.

Self said he isn't a PG.

Proof re Larry Brown or are you just making that up?

jaybate 1.0 said:

Vick is a stunning talent. Board rats have to forget this bad handles nonsense. Tyshawn, Frank all had bad handles.

WRONG. Next.

jaybate 1.0 said:

I heard all this same talk, when Self went with Tyshawn.

Never happen.

Then he went with him.

Never work. Bad handles.

Then he handled.

Never work. Too soft and sensy.

Then he grew up.

Not a good enough shooter.

Then he shot 40% most of the season.

Won’t last.

Then he lead the team to the Finals.

Won’t make it in the pros.

Lasted a few years and done.

See, I told you so.

There are great players.

Some pass the eye test and create comfort.

Some are “different” and trigger discomfort.

Tyshawn Taylor wasn’t a conventional point guard that made fans comfortable. He took a lot of on the job training. But for that team he was the perfect point guard. They got to the finals and would have beaten any non stack team for the ring.

Self probably would rather have had a conventional PG that could. Make the team better than Tyshawn could. But he didn’t have one.

Looking at this season, whether Vick plays point depends on whether Self has someone more conventional that by season’s end will make the team better than taking a big gamble on Vick learning to lead would make the team.

Self doesn’t take the lower risk approach unless it leads somewhere better.

Vick at point makes this team the best it could be, if Vick can master himself.

Self has a tough call.

Everyone wants Vick “on a short leash” taking the treys and being what they already know—the domestique 2. They want Vick to be better at what they know.

Fans always want more of what they know.

They didn’t want the highschool 2 Frank from Towson at KU, much less the point.

They didn’t the highschool 2 Marquette decommit Tyshawn as starting point.

And so on

Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.

Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.

Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.

Tyshawn was always a PG. Next.

jaybate 1.0 said:

@BShark

Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They don’t lead me to that conclusion at all.

Frank and Tyshawn were listed as PGs by services and KU/Self constantly. Try again.

jaybate 1.0 said:

Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.

Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.

Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.

Self gets things wrong all the time. He bungled the Diallo situation for one.

@jaybate-1.0 Frank had bad handles? Pleeaaaaase

@approxinfinity

Yes, when he arrived, everyone talked about how limited his skills as a PG were.

BShark said:

jaybate 1.0 said:

Self gets things wrong all the time.

——————-

All the time?

Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?

jaybate 1.0 said:

BShark said:

jaybate 1.0 said:

Self gets things wrong all the time.

——————-

All the time?

Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?

As foolish as anyone that assumes he always gets it right.

Still waiting for Larry Brown quotes on Vick being a PG. I scoured the internet, found nothing. Maybe I've simply missed it. :thinking:

What if jaybate is Larry Brown?

Diallo is still trying to figure it out!

@BShark

You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.

BShark said:

jaybate 1.0 said:

BShark said:

jaybate 1.0 said:

Self gets things wrong all the time.

——————-

All the time?

Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?

As foolish as anyone that assumes he always gets it right.

Still waiting for Larry Brown quotes on Vick being a PG. I scoured the internet, found nothing. Maybe I've simply missed it. :thinking:

—————-

But of course I dont.

U always leave the best part out.

😂

@jaybate-1.0 NO - -jaybate -- -NOT hell Mary - -it's OH jerry lmao. - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

mercy me - -- mercy me - -mercy me - - - people rippling waters - -seems to be some slight difference of opinions within the trible- -has to be the heat - -or the water lol - -let's remember as I was told sometime back - -let's play nice and enjoy - -yes - - yes - - yes that's it -- looking forward to Vick playing PG lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

California water rations maybe.

JayHawkFanToo said:

@BShark

You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.

—————

@JayHawkFanToo = 🤥

BShark said:

California water rations maybe.

Yes that's what it has to be - - some rations. - -And by the way mister - -no firecrackers for you - -you been to agrumentive ( is that even a word lmao ) - -no missle's - -no Roman Candles no nothing lol

The next thread in which I am hoping to follow back and forth disputationness is the one about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

@jaybate-1.0 I do seem to remember people suggesting that Frank couldn't play point. I wasn't one of them. His dribbling always looked very tight to me.

NBA no has love for Vick.
Vick needs home.
Bill says drop crap and learn PG.
Vick proves in NC season he can team it up and play PG.
NBA loves Vick and he is 2nd round pick.
Next.

@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 There was discussions of Vick being a point guard when he came to Kansas. There is no doubt he was listed as SG and that's been his only role here. The "Hurd" being referred to is Nathan Hurd, Vick's AAU coach. While I don't think he'll play PG this season, it is pretty clear that this was a discussion point.

“He’s a natural 2-guard, very athletic. Coach Self said he’s going to have him play the 1, 2 and 3,” Hurd said. “He’s tall enough to play the 3. Two is his natural position, and he can handle the ball well enough to play 1. He’s going to have to get there, work hard and learn coach Self’s stuff. Talent-wise, he’s one of the most talented guys on the team as of right now, but he’s got to get there and work his butt off,” Hurd added.

http://m.kusports.com/news/2015/may/18/high-scoring-memphis-guard-lagerald-vick-picks-kan/ ↗

@HighEliteMajor

Thx again for further clarification.

HighEliteMajor said:

@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 There was discussions of Vick being a point guard when he came to Kansas. There is no doubt he was listed as SG and that's been his only role here. The "Hurd" being referred to is Nathan Hurd, Vick's AAU coach. While I don't think he'll play PG this season, it is pretty clear that this was a discussion point.

“He’s a natural 2-guard, very athletic. Coach Self said he’s going to have him play the 1, 2 and 3,” Hurd said. “He’s tall enough to play the 3. Two is his natural position, and he can handle the ball well enough to play 1. He’s going to have to get there, work hard and learn coach Self’s stuff. Talent-wise, he’s one of the most talented guys on the team as of right now, but he’s got to get there and work his butt off,” Hurd added.

http://m.kusports.com/news/2015/may/18/high-scoring-memphis-guard-lagerald-vick-picks-kan/ ↗

Sounds like it was recruit speak at this point. We all can take an educated guess that many coaches will lie to get commits. Calipari and Drew are prime offenders but I wouldn't be surprised if Self made some suspect comments while trying to land a kid.

Like you said, he has only ever been a 2G here and now Self has a natural PG in Dotson and a small guard in Moore that you really don't want playing outside of the 1/2.

@BShark

I agree, recruiting coach speak paraphrased by his HS coach and as far as I can tell not directly by Self. Technically, any player can play any position and in HS is not rare to see a 6'4" player playing Center and a 6'9" player bringing the ball up the court; the better players are also great athletes and so much better than the often weak HS competition that literally can play any position they want somewhat competently.

College is quite different, the competition level is considerably higher and players quickly learn they have a natural position which they will likely play and sometimes, they will play a position different than their natural one if lack of personnel dictates they do and when they do they are often at a disadvantage with opponents playing their natural positions.

If Vick was ever going to play PG, last season would have been his best chance since KU was sorely short at that position, instead, Coach Self decide to ride Graham like a rented mule and played him close to 40 minutes a game with Svi and Newman and occasionally Garret spelling him but I did not see Vick play PG at all.

KU has Moore and Dotson firmly entrenched as PGs and Grimes being next after showing in the FIBA under 18 tournament he could run a team, next candidate would be Garret who actually played PG in HS and after that KJ who has indicated that he is not a big but a big guard that can play and defend positions 1-4. I just don't see a scenario where Vick would play PG at KU, none whatsoever...wishful thinking notwithstanding. If he did not play PG last season there is no way he plays PG this season.

@JayHawkFanToo

I agree with your basic point that the best HS players (the ones that go on to college) can shift around more than they can as they move up the ladder.

That said, Vick played a ton of minutes last year, and as one of KU's best athletes, he was often asked to play PF because of KU's lack of depth up front. Last year was probably the worst year for him to get minutes because he was being asked to play up front quite a bit. KU had no lineup where they were better served moving Vick to PG.

These last several KU teams have been guard heavy, but very light up front. If Sam Cunliffe was 6-8 or 6-9, he would have played 18 mpg last season.

You can call him a point guard, a shooting guard, a wing, a stretch 4, ...just as long as he hits the 3...who cares? It's no skin off my nose if Jaybate wants to call him a point guard.

Vick will wear #24 this year.

https://instagram.com/p/Bk5rv9bnvUb/ ↗

Woodrow said:

Vick will wear #24 this year.

Thanks.

@Woodrow More info out now

Gary Bedore
‏Verified account @GaryBedore

KU senior Lagerald Vick will wear No. 24 his senior season. His No. 2 had been given to Charlie Moore when Vick declared for the draft. Why No. 24? Taken from Bible's Book of Ephesians 4:22-24. Verse 24 is favorite part of passage of Vick and mom, his mom explained.

Ephesians 4:22-24 New International Version (NIV)
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

@mayjay

I see “Self” is mentioned twice...oh wait....never mind...:smile:

@mayjay sounds good!

Vick was the ultimate team player in the Duke game to take us to the Final Four. I'm sure that Self recalled how fantastic Vick has become in the middle of the zone.
His pass to Newman in the Overtime was a thing of unselfish beauty. Watch the guys that are coming back this year. De Sousa played the entire overtime and though he threw the ball into the stands, He was a monster on the boards when KU needed him the most. The new guards need to quickly get up to speed on the lob. I hear that Garret is shining in practice.

@wrwlumpy Garrett is great. Some people write him off because of his jump shot but in every other way he is at worst above average at basketball.

Also I can rewatch that game rewind any day! :D

I'm already looking forward to the Grimes to Vick backdoor dunk. It's going to be a great season. I can't wait.

@BShark I meant to post about Garrett, but there was some articles written about how he's changed his jump shot and is working hard to be a better shooter.

http://www.gctelegram.com/sports/20180702/ku-sophomore-garrett-changing-shooting-form ↗

HighEliteMajor said:

@BShark I meant to post about Garrett, but there was some articles written about how he's changed his jump shot and is working hard to be a better shooter.

http://www.gctelegram.com/sports/20180702/ku-sophomore-garrett-changing-shooting-form ↗

If he gets his shooting numbers up there could be a very real chance he is one of the best couple players on the team.

@wrwlumpy after that game I saw on tv, a huge hug from Vick to coach, it was very genuine too.

@HighEliteMajor

Remember I said the same thing and you though i was...well... ...starting the weekend early...:smile:

@JayHawkFanToo haha gotem!

@JayHawkFanToo I hope you are right. If I were having to bet on a specific percentage, I'd go 31%. Your "mid to upper 30s" is a bold one.

It does beg the question. If Garrett could change his form and work on his shot in the offseason, what was Doke doing last summer? Dunno.

Haven't really chimed in on this. Looks like it was a good thing.

I'm still shocked Vick is coming back. That seemed like a closed door to me. I've been fooled twice this off-season. First Doke returned and now Vick. Glad I was wrong.

The biggest question for me regarding this whole thing is what happens if he doesn't ride the straight and narrow at every turn? Is this the final straw he's been given? Will Self let him be a continued distraction if he reverts back to old habits? Distractions always end up hurting this team in the end.

What happens when the initial "I'm going to be different" wears off.

I know many of these questions we don't have the answer too. We'll have to see how it plays out

I hope he truly takes this chance to heart and becomes the player many of us thought he could be.

@BeddieKU23

Vick will be on a short leash and if he stray too much he will be gone. I would think one of the reason Coach Self let him come back is because after the Summer he will need just 12 credits to graduate which he can easily do it and graduate in December and, even if he is let go and does not make it to the NBA, at least he will have a college degree to get him started in the real world.

HighEliteMajor said:

It does beg the question. If Garrett could change his form and work on his shot in the offseason, what was Doke doing last summer? Dunno.

Probably healing and getting physically into playing shape which he still is not quite there yet although he has made great progress. He averaged 23.6 mpg and was the only starter not to be in the 30s. Carrying 280 pounds, even on 7' body has to be pretty taxing.

@JayHawkFanToo Unfortunately there is no excuse. It was a miss by the coaching staff.

@JayHawkFanToo

I'll wonder how short the leash is. We'll find out. It would suck if he's a starter and something happens. We have depth but this team likely is better with his skills on the floor.

Vick is in a great position to capitalize on his seniority given he's the only senior. We know he doesn't have the character of a leader but this is a great opportunity. Would love to see him step up the way Devonte and Frank did in prior seasons.

@BeddieKU23 I agree on the leader thing. Folks can mature into being a leader, and folks can be shocked into reality. The change in perspective can be life altering. Now, of course, that might be too dramatic a wish here. But really, if he can just play his game on the Court and not be a distraction otherwise, we'd take that in a heartbeat. I am very optimistic -- first team all conference optimism.

@BeddieKU23 @HighEliteMajor

Individuals show leadership in different ways. Some are vocal and demonstrative like Mason and Graham and others are more quiet and show leadership by example like Ellis and Lucas. I understand Lightfoot is a good one in practice and was very helpful to De Sousa. Some are good everyday leaders and some really shine under stress.

Vick is now in a situation where failure is not an option if he has any hope of playing at the next level. There is no going back to college fall back option and being dismissed from the team would be the kiss of death. I don’t believe we can expect to see a vocal Vick leader but hopefully he will let his game speak for him and provide leadership by example. Good Vick is All Conference and bad Vick does not see the second half of the season; I am hoping it is the first; I am sure we all are.

Imagine if KU wins the tournament this year. Vick would have EE, EE, FF and a title. That would have to be the most success any player has had in the tournament while at KU.

BShark said:

Imagine if KU wins the tournament this year. Vick would have EE, EE, FF and a title. That would have to be the most success any player has had in the tournament while at KU.

If that were to happen, Vick might finish his career as the winningest Jayhawk of all time. Currently, by my count the winningest four year players are Tyrel Reed, who won 132 games in his career, Elijah Johnson, who won 131 games in his career, then Sherron Collins with 130 wins.

Vick is at 97 wins right now, and with a loaded KU team this year, 36 wins, while a very high mark, isn't out of the question, particularly if KU were to win the title. No national champ has won less than 32 games in a season since 2003 (Syracuse went 30-5), but since most national title game participants are playing in their 39th or 40th game of the season now, it's unlikely this KU team would have that few wins if they were to win the title.

If this team wins a national title, Vick probably lands very close to being the winningest Jayhawk of all time, if he doesn't end up with the top spot outright.

🐦 View Tweet?s=20

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article214618295.html ↗

Here's a pretty good article from Jesse Newell on the PT effect Vick will have on the rest of the roster.

https://www.facebook.com/KansasBasketball/videos/10156525049489532/ ↗

@HighEliteMajor

I'd be very happy if he's not a distraction. I think we have other players more capable of becoming leaders if Vick cannot change who he is. Some can, some can't and I won't fault him for it. It's still a tremendous opportunity though. It can be the driving force. He's seen the drive of Frank and Devonte the past two seasons so the groundwork he's witnessed first hand. He knows what's expected of him if he does take that route.

For the better part of 2 years Vick has been a lingering distraction. Is there a bubble we can put Vick in off the court? Between the girlfriend issues and whatever ale'd him last season he's certainly walked a thin line. Would be a great story at some point next season if he's able to bounce back and help lead this promising squad to great things this upcoming season.

@Woodrow

I think that Newell overestimates Vick's minutes. I find it odd that it has Grimes getting more minutes with Vick than without. I would guess nobody will be getting more than about 28-32 mpg with the depth KU has. I also think it is severely underestimating how much Devon Dotson will play. If Dotson is playing less than 15 mpg, I will be shocked. Charlie Moore is likely to see a good amount of time, but I'm not sure he gets quite that many minutes, particularly since Dotson may start, if not immediately then eventually.

I'm really interested in the rotation for sure. I actually think Vick's addition changes everyone's minutes except Dotson and Grimes.

Vick's addition means that there will be direct minutes taken away from Garrett and KJ at the 3.

There will also be indirect minutes taken from the post play, as well as an advantage gained, imo. Vick's addition indirectly adds more depth to our post play by letting KJ get minutes at the 4. More depth means more aggression from our post players. More aggression means fewer, but more impactful minutes from Dedric and Doke. Below is my guess for the rotation and stats for players.

PG:
- Dotson: 28 MPG, 9 PPG, 3.8 AST, 3 TOV, 1.2 STL, 3 RBD
- Moore: 12 MPG, 3 PPG, 2 AST, 1 TOV, .5 STL, .5 RBD

SG:

• Grimes: 32 MPG, 14 PPG, 2.5 AST, 3 TOV, 1.2 STL, .5 BLK, 3 RBD
• Garrett: 8 MPG, 3 PPG, 1 AST, .2 TOV, 1 STL, .5 BLK, 3 RBD

SF:
- KJ: 20 MPG, 5 PPG, 1.2 AST, 1 TOV, 1 STL, .5 BLK, 4 RBD
- Vick: 20 MPG, 9 PPG, 1.2 AST, 1 TOV, 1 STL, .5 BLK, 2 RBD

PF:
- Dedric: 28 MPG, 14 PPG, 2 AST, 1.5 TOV, .8 STL, 2.5 BLK, 7 RBD
- KJ: 8 MPG, 4 PPG, .5 AST, .5 TOV, .2 STL, .3 BLK, 3 RBD
- Mitch: 4 MPG, 2 PPG, .1 AST, .1 TOV, .2 STL, 1 BLK, 3 RBD

C:
- Doke: 20 MPG, 11 PPG, .8 AST, 1.5 TOV, .5 STL, 2.5 BLK, 7 RBD
- De Sousa: 15 MPG, 5 PPG, .1 AST, 1.5 TOV, .3 STL, 1 BLK, 6 RBD
- Big Dave: 5 MPG, 2 PPG, .1 AST, .2 TOV, .2 STL, .5 BLK, 3 RBD

Team Line:

81 PPG, 15.3 AST, 14.5 TOV, 8.1 STL, 9.8 BLK, 44.5 RBD

Comparison to last season, for perspective:

I have us scoring roughly the same points as last season. While we may not be AS talented scoring the ball, this team will not go through those same periods of stalling with Devonte walking the ball up the court slowly. I also expect twice as many blocked shots and about 9 more rebounds per game. I expect a few more turnovers per game as well, with a rookie running point. I expect a 30% increase in steals, topping off what I consider to be a superior defensive team to last seasons. Perhaps, a superior defensive team to the rest of the country.

Comparison to 2008 team:

The 2008 team shared the ball amazingly well. Much better than my projections, although my first round saw us having close to the 18 per game the 2008 team had. Both teams should have similar defensive prowess, although I believe that this year's team will block more shots than the 2008 bunch. I may have overprojected this season's rebound numbers, but I also think this is a better rebounding team than 2008. KJ is a better rebounder than Rush, Dedric is the best rebounder out of both teams. The 2008 team was far from turnover prone, but they did take care of the ball better.

All in all, this team looks as good as any in the Self Era, at least on paper. What I expect is an elite defensive team that is able to play through the post, score consistently and still have the versatility to run and gun if needed. As long as everyone stays healthy, this is a FF or bust year imo.

Also note that my projections do not expect a crazy season from Dotson, and that if he develops into a player better than what I have projected here, this team is absolutely insane.

@Kcmatt7

There is some pressure on either Moore or Dotson to emerge. With so many weapons, you have to have a good PG to make sure everyone eats. RussRob did that exceptionally well in 2008 to be sure that Rush, Arthur and Chalmers all got opportunities every night.

Either Dotson or Moore has to be able to do the same for this team.

@justanotherfan

I believe the number come from Bart Torvik and Newell was just using them but did not generate them himself.

@justanotherfan I expect one of them to be solid, but just not an AA. Probably not even 1st team all conference.

I'm just saying they don't necessarily need to light up the stat sheet in order for this team to be good.

@JayHawkFanToo

Good point.

@Kcmatt7

I agree. For the PG position this year, efficiency is more important than big overall numbers.

Whichever PG emerges I expect them to be option #5 in the starting lineup.

Eh... I saw Vick disappear in too many games last season to say that. If Dotson starts I think he would be the fifth option in terms of scoring, but I think there will be games where he takes over as a distributor/passer/play-maker. Dotson can score too. And Moore is either KU's best or second best outside shooter. There will be nights when he's making 3's and contributes a lot as a scorer. Basically I think KU is too balanced and too deep to call anyone who starts a fifth option. I will say that I think there is a definite option #1, though, and that his name is Dedric Lawson. There's so much depth and versatility with this KU roster that Self can employ different lineups depending on the situation.

Starting Lineup: Dotson, Grimes, Vick, Dedric, Doke

Other Potential Starting Lineup: Moore, Grimes, KJ, Dedric, Doke

Offensive/End of game Lineup: Dotson, Moore, Grimes, Vick, Dedric

Defense Lineup: Garrett, Grimes, KJ, Dedric, Doke

All-Guard lineup: Dotson, Moore, Grimes, Vick, KJ (Garrett too)

Best/Optimal/Potential Scariest-For-Other-Teams Lineup: Dotson, Grimes, Vick, Dedric, De Sousa

A few comments on these lineups:

1. They all have Dedric and Grimes, who I think will be KU's best players this season. And I think that fact will be reflected in their total minutes per game.

2. If Moore starts over Dotson, I think Vick comes off the bench. Moore and Vick are KU's best outside shooters. If they both start, that doesn't leave much perimeter shooting coming off the bench. I think there will be times when they are on the court together, of course. But unless another guard emerges as an above-average outside shooter, I think the lineups on the floor will include either Vick or Moore with brief times of overlap. Moore being one of the only proven quality perimeter shooters is also the reason that I think he will get more than 12 minutes per game.

3. The optimal lineup is based the one that I think could potentially be the best. There are a lot of ifs here. If De Sousa is eligible and develops. If Dotson develops. If Grimes develops. If Vick can stay engaged in games throughout the season (side note: he reminds me a little bit of a poor man's Wiggins with a better stroke in this way). If Dedric lives up to the ridiculous expectations that have been placed on him by coaches/fans/writers. If all of that happens I think that this lineup could be devastating on both sides of the ball. And fast. Really, really fast. This is also the reason that I lean more towards starting Dotson than Moore, even though Moore might be the better player at the beginning of the season.

4. I think the first starting lineup that I have listed also gives Self the best bench for in-game damage control. If the team isn't playing defense, Garrett and KJ (and Mitch too) can come into the game. Charlie Moore can come into the game for added shooting. And a deep roster means that anyone who isn't hustling or giving 100% effort will sit.

@KirkIsMyHinrich Great post. I love that starting lineup.

@KirkIsMyHinrich I'm with you on Charlie getting more time. I don't think they'll be able to keep him off the court. The feedback from practice this summer has been that no one can keep in front of Charlie because of his quickness. I also wouldn't think it was a stretch to believe him and Vick lead our team in 3 pointers made, although Grimes could also have something to say about that. The confidence level Charlie exudes is going to go a long way with a young team, imo. My theory is they will be adding so many new components to the team, it will give CM the time on the court to establish himself. I think it will take Dotson time to find his voice as a leader, although he obviously has lots of talent. By the end of the year, Dot should find more and more minutes, but I think for most of the year, it's going to be the Charlie show.

I will say, I'm starting to come around on the Charlie train a little bit... Just watching some of his tape today does have me more optimistic than before. I think his only downfall could be his natural instinct to try to score. He needs to be a distributor for this team more than a scorer. He will need to pass up on some shots that he took at Cal. He will need to avoid driving the lane against his man, just because he can, because he gets blocked a lot. That is what caused his high turnover number. He would drive the lane and then get in trouble. He can't do that here.

However, I did note a few things. His stroke looks pretty dang good. I think in a situation where he is the 5th option and only shooting wide open 3s, we will see him hit them at a .400 clip. He also has an uncanny ability to shake his man and get a great look at the mid-range floater. Something that I think is pretty hard to teach or even execute. Defensively, I still find him to be a bit of a liability. But he was the leading ball swiper his lone season at Cal. If he can hound opposing guards and create some havoc, I really like how he fits on this team.

I'd still prefer he come off the bench because, to me, he fits better with the 2nd unit where he would be more free to create and shoot. I think running him with 4 other guys that can score is a disservice to his natural scoring instincts. My real hope though, is that him and Dotson are basically splitting hairs and that we can run them both about 20 min a game, allowing them to both play all out on both ends of the floor.

@KirkIsMyHinrich

I like your lineups with one tiny edit to the end of game lineup.

I think KU will close with a Dotson or Moore-Grimes-Vick-KJ-Dedric lineup. That lineup gives you offense, defense, shooting, ball handling and rebounding. I just worry that closing with Dotson and Moore makes the lineup too small defensively. With Grimes' ball handling ability, you don't have to have a second PG on the floor.

With Vick and KJ as your third and fourth ball handlers, you have plenty of handling on the floor, plus capable shooters at every position. Basically what Villanova threw at teams last year.

@justanotherfan I went back and forth on KJ or Moore in the end-of-game lineup. My rationale for choosing Moore is the ball-handling and free throw shooting. Also the fact that he spaces the floor better for Dedric because he's a deep threat. KJ is obviously the better option on the defensive side of the ball because of his length. I don't really think there is a wrong choice here. It would probably come down to which player is better for the situation based on what team Kansas is playing. Like if it's West Virginia I would probably go Moore over KJ because so much of their offense is generated by the press. If it's more of a finesse/offensive/shooting team like, I dunno, North Carolina or something then I might take KJ. Or if it was Duke I would put KJ on Barrett/Reddish.

Here is a quick video of Vick against Duke in the Elite 8...

@JayHawkFanToo

Vick's athleticism and versatility make him a great matchup against a variety of teams. He can handle being in the middle of a zone or stationed as a shooter on the perimeter. He can guard multiple guys. He can rebound. Vick (and KJ) add an element to this team that a lot of other teams do not have with guys being able to be versatile.

I like Vick. Always have. He’s had his ups and downs and haven’t we all. Coming back and finishing school will be the best decision of his life when he looks back in 15 years.

In the short term, his athleticism has been underestimated consistently. I think he is the kind of guy that can propel the team to a deep run — again.

For reasons I can’t explain, I have always liked this kid and I wish him all the best this year. It will be a life changer, I think. He should in the NBA after this season.

Hearing great things about him.

There is an argument that Vick will be the best player on the team. He'd be my pick right now. We should never underestimate Vick coming back. This is a monumental turn of events. The psychology of "why" he came back, and "how" it played out gives it an even better twist. He could be the conference POY.

@justanotherfan

No doubt that Vick coming back makes KU not just deeper but better as well.

If we win the NC there must be a Vick 30 for 30.

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2018/jul/23/ku-teammates-seeing-new-improved-version-lagerald-/?mens_basketball ↗ ↗