Yikes .. and I thought I was harsh at times. No punches pulled on this one.
-"No Focus Selden aka OAD become TAD become 3AD become 4AD Wayne–No Focus Selden"
-"Passive Perry"
-"TO "_____", uh, no, I already said I wouldn’t go there twice. Oh, what the hell!!! He was lolly gagging around, as if he were licking on a codeine and nembutal bomb pop."
-"Uneven Graham"
-"No Touch Mykhailiuk"
Next, indeed.
@jaybate-1.0 Seriously, here, you think if we just didn't have Landen Lucas yesterday, we lose to Harvard? Come on. You can't expect me to believe that. Lucas is out an extra game with his toe and we lose to Harvard at home, who was 2-5 coming in? The "Crimson" juggernaut? No way. Who really believes that?
It is paralysis. It's over thinking. It's ignoring our best players, for players he thinks are best for one aspect of the game. That's not seeing the forest for the trees.
I'm wondering, what did you think of minutes 13:00 down to 9:22 of the first half? if we were so destined to lose w/o our Superman in the game, how in the world did we stretch the lead from 13-10 to 29-16? How do we ignore that?
You mentioned Mickelson. Why? Because you have seen him perform. I agree -- but then again, I continue to think we're at our best playing just Diallo/Ellis/Bragg/Mick. That's all we need. The others could help in an emergency or in a play by play sub at the end of a game.
By the way, your composite 5 stats are just a tad bit off I think: "_____", Diallo, Lucas and Mickelson combined for 12 points, 13 rebounds, and 3 blocks in 42 combined minutes of play, fyi. If that's how you're computing.
@benshawks08 I see what you're saying. I guess I think we're saying much the same thing. The paralysis by analysis thing from yesterday is based on Self saying that Lucas guarded "#4" better. I did not hear him reference rebounding as his rationale. At the 10:20 mark of the first half is when Self made this decision. I agree with you completely in that Self made this decision based on the game situation. "Feel" or "analysis" -- for my purpose here, it is the same thing.
He focused on one specific element by his own words, and (in my view) is ignoring the broader picture of the "net" production. It is what he's done in the past, as well.
I agree completely with you that Self is paralyzed by the fear of losing.
I love your comment here: "If Self is paralyzed by anything it is his fear of losing. He often will rely on experience over talent because when it gets tight he plays to minimize mistakes so as not to lose as opposed to play the talent in order to win."
I can't argue with this at all.
But this goes to the debate we have had for years -- developing players. Playing so that your players have reached the maximum development that they could reach by the NCAA tournament. Everyone knows that freshmen need development. Self even cited Diallo and Bragg after the game. He knows their talent level.
How about this press conference question?
Question: Coach, you just lost to Harvard at home. How does that happen?. Their #4 seemed to get some easy buckets inside. Diallo got crossed up some. And Bragg made some crucial turnovers.
Coach Self: "Look, I want to win every game. But I believe that Diallo and Bragg are guys that are going to get us to our ultimate goal of a national championship. There are going to ups and downs. We may take some lumps. But getting these guys real game experience, in tight games, will only make us better come conference play and come March. I felt Landen was a guy that could have matched up a bit better, and in his 6 minutes today, he played well. But given the total contribution, will Landen be the guy in that situation in March? The next time we're in this situation, I'll bet that both Diallo and Bragg perform a little bit better. They both have very high ceilings. I am committed to getting them to their max efficiency so we have the best chance to win a national championship in March. Nothing against the other guys, but both give us our best chance to win."
Now, we may bitch and moan about losing to Harvard (and don't think we would have lost) but we all could greatly respect the plan and the foresight.
What I don't hear from Self is that sitting Diallo and Bragg actually gets them more ready for March. That it gets us more ready to win a national championship. I have never heard him say that keeping a guy that will be playing those big minutes out, makes them more ready for March. I've never heard that logic from him.
@JayHawkFanToo said it precisely correct. His job is to win. Just win. Who cares how, what, when, why? Just win. But is that "just win" no matter what approach on December 5 the best way to get ready to win games in March (and April)?
Thus our discussion.
Diallo and Bragg are our two best post players from a talent perspective. Ellis has to play because he's our best scorer inside. I cannot imagine that those three aren't our three highest minutes guys come March. Play them.
One other thing, Self said after the Chaminade game that he would have rather won 60-50, than to give up all those points. That analysis, though, completely ignores how well we did "per possession" -- there were a lot of possessions, and we blew them out. Chaminade was at like .8 per possession. The number of points given up, really, is meaningless. I don't really understand Self's theory there. Would you rather give up more points per possession in a slugfest? Why slug out when you can destroy a team?
The key is, simply, scoring more per possession than the other team. That's it.
@JayHawkFanToo I think the best explanation is that Vick is low on the pecking order and it's hard to justify playing him over our top four perimeter guys. I can't at this stage contemplate why Vick would be a better option than Mason, Graham, Selden, or Svi.
"We will always be in deep doo-doo if we have Landen lightly jogging back and forth to each side."
There is a wizard behind the curtain that calls the shots. You're right on point with the issue yesterday. Pace (and just 14 three point attempts).
Following Kansas' close call against Harvard, coach Self attempted to attach reason to the unreasonable. It's a common theme. But let's start from an initial premise: Play the best player. This isn't difficult. But it is (and always has been difficult) for coach Self.
Prior Paralysis By Analysis: I posted a prior thread on Self's Paralysis By Anaylsis. The Harvard contest has reinforced that theory. As I had suggested after the MSU game, Self got caught up on the micro-analysis of certain elements of the game, and was missing the big picture of playing the best player. Against Michigan State, Self said Michigan State’s defensive style — they three-quarter fronted the post — demanded the presence of Lucas, who is the Jayhawks’ best big man at sealing the post and creating angles.That’s Landen Lucas’ best game,” Self said. “That’s what he does. He plays to getting answers. So I thought that was the percentage play for us, to play that well’.”
Play the Best Player: May I revisit a theme: Play the best player. It does translate well from sport to sport. And is a generally accepted approach to winning. There are exceptions to that to be sure. But rarely.
Diallo/Bragg vs. Harvard: So let's look at what happened against Harvard. First, Cheick Diallo entered the game at the 13:00 minute mark and Kansas led 13-10 (not 13-12 as I said yesterday). At that time, Diallo was paired with Bragg. When Bragg left the game for Lucas at 9:22, Kansas led Harvard 29-16. Lucas entered the game to guard "#4" (more on that below). Diallo then left at the 7:56 mark, and Kansas was up 30-16. In five minutes, with mostly Diallo and Bragg on the floor, Kansas extended it's lead to 14 points, and did this in just five minutes of play. Very importantly, Diallo/Bragg fit the strength of our team -- playing fast. Against Loyola, one play stood out to me. Diallo got the ball on the block, he got doubled, and he turned and shot the ball to the far block to Bragg for the easy lay-up. Post to post passing and creation. And is there any better post player on this team than Bragg, passing from the high to the low?
De Facto Suspension: As I mentioned after the game, Self has now imposed a de facto suspension on one of our top talents. After fighting for months to gain Diallo's freedom, Self sent him back to the clink by playing the young man only 7 minutes. And with it, at least 13 minutes (if not more) of much needed playing time and development. But why, why would coach Self do this?
The Play That Sealed Diallo's Fate: Go to 10:20 mark of the 1st half. Harvard's "#4" scored on a little left handed hook over Diallo. And that was it. That is what sealed Diallo's fate. Self then sent Landen Lucas to the scorer's table to sub in for Bragg. Lucas then immediately began guarding "#4." Based on this play, #4's second basket of the game, Diallo can't guard him.
Irony Of Subbing For Bragg: In a small bit of Irony in subbing for Bragg, after "#4" scored, KU went down the floor and Bragg scored at the rim, on a layup. You don't have to be looking for irony to have that slap you in the face. We couldn't score at the rim -- he scored. And we scored playing fast. Irony many times provides our answer.
Self's Quote on Lucas -- Paralysis By Analysis: "He's by far our best big," Kansas coach Bill Self said of Lucas. "He defended (Zena Edosomwan) great. And (he's) a terrific player. (Lucas) was by far the only big guy we had who could guard him one-on-one. Landen was by far the best player in the game,” Self said. “He did a great job on No. 4, Zena. He’s a monster. Landen didn’t even need traps for the most part.” Self also said, “Landen was our best big,” Self said. “The game situation was the only reason why (Bragg and Diallo) didn’t play more.” Let's skip over the hyperbole and untruths and go right to the fact -- Lucas "did a great job" guarding #4. That's true. This entire discussion assumes that. But we are not stupid. We know that Lucas is not, was not, and never will be our best big. Say it if you want to, coach Self, but it's a complete and utter fabrication. A Self-serving fabrication to justify your poor decisions in this game. It's just like saying "_____" was the best player against Loyola. A fabrication.
Here We Go Again: What I would like to here is the defense of Bill Self -- Landon Lucas is "by far our best big." And "Landen was by far the best player in the game." We are living in an alternative universe here where certain phases of the game are completely ignored. I checked the box score. It was very hard not to notice that Landen Lucas played 24 minutes and scored 5 points. And had zero blocks. One assists (no real post to post action). It is also difficult not to notice that when Harvard players enter the lane, or any players, Landen Lucas provides zero rim protection. It is also hard not to notice that Landen Lucas is the slowest player on the team, but a long shot -- on a team whose identity is playing fast.
Kansas' Entire Game Dictated By The 2012 #82 Player Zena Edosomwan: That's right, Bill Self adjusted Kansas' game based on "#4". You know why? Because he is a "monster." Bill Self sacrificed out team's identity because #4 is "a monster." This approach is short-sighted, overly reactive, and this approach simply denies the value of other elements of the game. Go back and watch from 13:00 minutes to 9:22 minutes. Watch the pace of the game. This is when Bragg exited for Lucas. Kansas was up 29-16 after leading 13-10.
Fixation on One Element: Gross vs. Net: Bill Self is obviously not in business. The key is the entire picture, not a portion of it. Perhaps we try it this way. In 24 minutes of play, does anyone here believe that Diallo would be limited to 5 points? Diallo scored 13 the other night, scored 4 points in 7 minutes yesterday. Does anyone think that Diallo might have drawn a foul, or two, or three? He drew a foul in his 7 minutes and though he didn't convert, he was very active around the rim Perhaps even more importantly, pace of the game. The dynamic of the game. Landen Lucas is a sloth. Playing fast is this team's identity, and it was on full display from 13:00 to 9:22 of the first half. Landen Lucas slows our pace. Further, Diallo's aggressiveness in the post creates fouls on the opponents. There is no doubt that Lucas rebounds well. However, Self seems content to have an offensive dead spot down low, either with Lucas or with "______". Landen Lucas flat didn't shoot. He shot the ball 2 times. He did nothing to put pressure on their inside players (trying to score, drawing fouls). Nothing. Further, I am relatively confident that the combo of Diallo and Bragg would rebound sufficiently (and that Diallo would meet or exceed Lucas if permitted to show his wares).
Missing The Big Picture: My opinion is that we have found the answer we have long sought -- why? Why does Bill Self play guys that the rest of the basketball world (coach K, Izzo, Boeheim, Williams, etc) would not play? Why does he sit highly talented players in favor of pedestrian player, or players that are below average? Because he fixates on certain elements of the game and overlooks the "net" contributions of players. He's see that Lucas may be better in one element, and then he we discard the other elements of the game in favor of the one defined element. We saw it in his comments vs. MSU, we see it now. And see the next paragraph.
Remember Cliff and Lucas?: After the WVU game on Feb. 19 last season, the one where Cliff played just 6 minutes (more on that below), Self said the following: “The last two games, it’s easier for (Landen) to play good than it is Cliff,” Self said. “Without being critical, Landen is much better against the zone. He has a feel on gaps. He’s much better in pressure, handling the ball, passing the ball than Cliff. It was easier for him to look better in the last two games than Cliff.”
Cliff vs. Diallo: To put yesterday in perspective, Diallo played just 7 minutes. Cliff never played less than 10 minutes in any game other than the Feb. 16 WVU game. Many speculated that Cliff's time near the end of the season was because Self knew of the NCAA issues. Doesn't matter. Cliff is view by many, many folks as a poor match for Self. Claimed he didn't play with a motor. Yet Diallo, supposedly the best match for Self, can't really find the floor? Against the power that is Harvard, in AFH? Good Lord.
Back to Bunnies Again: Self said, “Fans will think I’m nuts ... I thought we played pretty well. We got the ball exactly where we wanted it. We didn’t have any big guys score the ball very well today. We missed a lot of free throws that obviously could have made the game less interesting late. (But) I don’t leave here discouraged at all because I know we can make free throws and I know we can make layups,” Yes, we got it where we wanted it, Coach, but we struggle to score in those spots against height/length and many times anyone else. Is this Groundhog day? You played Landen Lucas who just can't score inside, period. That limited our options to just Perry Ellis, who is as soft as a lilly and has proven ineffective against height/length over and over. We aren't missing wide open, easy shots. Further, if we make 5 more free throws, that's 18-25 -- over 70%. That doesn't change our struggles in this game.
Three Point Shooting: As mentioned yesterday, we only shot 14 three pointers. Self laments, again, missing shots near the basket as he always does. Our team identity is playing fast AND shooting the ball. Yet in a game that called for exploiting the three point line, we shot only 14 times. Harvard must be one hell of team, guys. We can't score inside, and we can only get off 14 three pointers. By the way, we shot 42.8% from three so Harvard wasn't that great at the job. We're in serious trouble, folks, if the vaunted Harvard Crimson can stop us inside and out. The fact is, as usual, the three point shot was not a priority. But we "got the ball exactly where we wanted it." Foolish.
Outcoached: It seems quite apparent that someone got out coached yesterday, and that someone was able to win the game simply and solely because of superior talent -- by 6 points, over Harvard, at home, in AFH. Make no mistake, Bill Self put this team in a position to lose this game. This is the type of game that we discuss ad nauseam. But I think we have at least a substantially partial answer -- it is paralysis by analysis. A hyper focus on one element or two, that compromises the big picture.
We needed to just take it to Harvard, run them out of the gym, shoot them out of the gym, and out score them. Use "pressure" as @dinarhawk mentioned yesterday. But Self, as usual, won't just won't trust his offense. He's like Buddy Ryan in suit. Our offense, and that style of play, was on full display during a nice 4 minute stretch in the first half when neither Lucas, nor Ellis, were in the game. Instead, our coach decided that playing the arguably better defensive match up against Harvard's big man was the better choice. And he rode Ellis even though he was largely ineffective. Lucas/Ellis - 51 minutes. Diallo/Bragg - 16 minutes. It's hard to fault him on Ellis, he's one of our best players. But mixing in some combinations, giving Bragg and Diallo substantial time together given what happened with that combo on the court in the first half seemed to be a reasonable approach.
One thing I am very confident of -- riding Landen Lucas for 24 minutes is NEVER the best option with this team. NEVER.
PLAY THE BEST PLAYERS. IT'S NOT COMPLICATED. GOOD THINGS HAPPEN WHEN YOU PLAY THE BEST PLAYERS. THE "NET" RESULT IS BETTER WHEN YOU PLAY THE BEST PLAYERS.
I bet that Marquis Bolden, or Jarrett Allen, are looking at this game and wondering how they will fair when it comes to playing time, when faced with the prospect of beating out Landen Lucas.
And I never even brought up Hunter Mickelson. You know, the guy that played so well in South Korea? That seemed to be able to function and guard guys overseas? Who hustled, scored, had energy, and protected the rim? But he's obviously worthless to coach Self. It is tremendous waste of talent.
A few comments:
Diallo Suspension Continues: This game was a complete waste of potential minutes for Diallo's development. A complete waste. This was a perfect situation to get Diallo 20 minutes. Someone please explain to me why he should only play 7 minutes? Diallo came in the game at appx. the 13:00 minute mark and we were up 13-12. He left at appx. 8:00 and we were up 30-16. I cannot emphasize this enough. Diallo sits 5 games. He's suspended. Self suspended him for another game. Seven minutes vs. Harvard? #FreeDiallo. I'm wondered, did Cliff every play just 7 minutes in any game last season? I looked. Cliff never played less than 10 minutes in a game until he played 6 minutes vs. West Virginia on February 16.
Bragg: See Diallo. Much of the time Diallo was in during the first half, Bragg was in with him. We played better. We were better with Diallo and Bragg in -- as I recall -- we smoked their zone defense. I guess that Carlton Bragg, a high skill player, just can't hang against Harvard. I get it.
Lucas -- The Sloth: Who is our slowest player getting up and down the court? Right, Landen Lucas. Self, for whatever reason, decided to go with Lucas as our big minutes guy today inside. I wonder if it is because he does better sealing on a three quarter deny? I wouldn't doubt it. Low talent, low production. He did a fine job on the boards, but virtually no scoring, no blocked shots. He is what he is. I would note that Mickelson and Diallo each had more blocks in their combined 9 minutes than Lucas had in his 24. Lucas provides zero rim protection. Here we go again. Good grief. If you're Harvard, do you fear Lucas or Ellis more? If you're Harvard, and Bragg or Diallo are in the game with Ellis, what do you think then? If I'm Harvard, I'm content to slack off Lucas and help hard with Ellis. As Self said in his statements on Brannen Greene yesterday, "it's not that complicated. PLAY THE BEST PLAYER.
Playing Fast - Our Team Identity, Right?: So why would we rely on Lucas when one of our top two team assets is playing fast? At times, we slowed to a crawl. We cannot rely solely on the three. But playing fast AND shooting the three fits this team to a "T". Our team identity is playing fast. Pushing the pace. Harvard beat US down the court off a made basket. Meanwhile, we watch the ball bounce around after a made basket. We have to push the pace, and push the pace some more. All the time.
Ellis At The Rim: This is why we can't rely on a feed the post game. The pedestrian bigs of Harvard harassed Ellis enough that he, again, couldn't score reliably inside. But Self didn't help him. Self didn't have a competent scoring option in the game with Ellis. For my money, Bragg or Diallo is going to give Ellis much "cover."
Second Half: We never saw the Bragg/Diallo combo (Even after they looked great together in the second half), and I barely recall seeing Bragg at all. When I see Ellis unable to score inside and Lucas, who is just not a good player -- together for literally the entire second half -- well, we're going to struggle to beat Harvard.
Three Point Shooting: Kansas shot 42.7% from three point range. Great shooting. What let us down was 1) not playing at a high pace, and 2) our inability to score inside. But … and a big "But" … we only shot 14 three pointers. Perry Ellis, who couldn't score inside, shot zero three pointers (that's "0") -- and he shoots 44% for the season by the way. The logic is obviously lacking. "Best" or near best shooting team Self has ever had, and we shoot 14 three pointers. That is asinine. When you can't score at the rim, and you know you can't, you have to focus on plan B.
The Script: This is the script as to why we play close games, and why we are threatened by vastly inferior teams many times. Not inferior teams, but vastly inferior teams.
Consider This: Consider this -- Landen Lucas and "_____" played a combined 34 minutes. Neither will ever sniff the NBA. Diallo and Bragg, both sure fire NBA players, played a combined 16 minutes. Lucas and "_____" played over double their minutes. Is there anyone on this planet that can state a case for that? Unreal. Add in Mickelson, it's 34 minutes to 18.
Think Of It This Way: Do you think we beat Harvard playing just Diallo, Bragg, and Mickelson in the post? Just those three. If one gets fouled up, we play small. Do we beat Harvard? And do we beat Harvard by more than six points? I'd take that bet any day.
"______": If "_____" was our best player against Loyola, how does he just play 10 minutes today? I mean, how does our coach play the player that was our "best player" in the prior game only 10 minutes? To quote one of my favorite posters, "just sayin". Worth a chuckle.
Free Throw Shooting: Let's say we make 18 - 25 instead of 13-25. That's over 70%. My analysis does not change one bit. Ignore the free throw shooting when assessing this game. The important assessment here is how we played the game. The free throw shooting today is irrelevant to the discussion. @nuleafjhawk is right, we shot it poorly. However, this should not have been a game irrespective of the free throw shooing. if we win by five more points, making five more free throws, it's the same discussion.
Zone Offense: The best part of this game was our zone offense. Last season, we seemed very stagnant at times. Not today. This is something that bears watching as the season moves forward. In the first half, our zone offense really looked dynamic.
@DoubleDD It might have been heading into the 2014 tourney, but as of then 18 of the last 25 title winners had been #1 seeds as I recall. i posted that back then. UConn was obviously not a #1 seed in 2014 but Duke was in 2015. So appx. 19 of last 27 title winners were #1 seeds. That 70%.
I don't know what it is regarding the #1 "overall" seeds back that far. But in the 10 seasons preceding the 2015 tournament, the overall #1 seed had made it to 6 of the 10 final fours, winning 3 of them (Florida 2006; Kentucky 2012; Louisville 2013). Four other title winners in that same span were #1 seeds ( (North Carolina in 2005; Kansas in 2008; North Carolina in 2009; Duke in 2010). Duke won last season as a #1 seed, as we'll, but wasn't the overall #1.
So 7 of the last 11 tourneys won by #1 seeds, with 3 of those being overall #1 seeds.
It is definitely the easier path as a #1 and being the overall #1 is better than not (as 3 title winners were overall #1, and 4 other #1 winners came from the other three #1 seeds).
And "chalk", obviously, is reaching the final four for any #1. Losing before the final four is an underachievement. It's really only winning three games to get there as the first game is a gimme.
Just as information, Kansas in 2010 was the only #1 overall seed to lose in the first weekend in that 10+ season time period I referred to above. I got to spend the entire day with my daughter -- driving to and from OK City vs. UNI in the snow. A 17 hour day when all was said and done. So that still made it a good day nonetheless.
@AsadZ The comparison to Curry is silly -- actually, using possibly the best shooter in NBA history in the same sentence with Greene, is silly. I believe that part of the reason why he does that, sometimes, is because he is defending Self's decisions not to use Greene to the extent that many posters, media, etc. think Greene could/should be used. He and I have had that discussion before.
But I also believe the reason @JayHawkFanToo mentions Curry is to highlight his view that Greene is a one trick pony so to speak. It's not really Curry, per se, but it is a shooter than can find his own shot -- highlighting that Greene has limitations in that regard. And that goes to the point I have made here a number of times. To get the full value out of Greene, Self does need to run some specific plays for him to get his three point shot a handful of times per game (or something like that). Scheme to get the top production. Really, though, playing truly inside/out should create excellent step-in looks for Greene in the flow of what they normally do. It happened for most of last season.
Not to speak for @JayHawkFanToo too much here, but I think it's also that Greene can't drive the basketball with any effectiveness. Some good shooters have that option. As a defender, what would you guard? The shot, or the drive? With Greene, you don't have to be very worried about the drive. Triple threat position, so to speak, becomes double threat position.
But make no mistake, Brannen Greene, in the right situation, would be lethal. Last seasons team though, need his production more than this season's team. It was concerning that Self played him so little against MSU. It was leaving potential firepower out of the battle. But that's what we're going to get. Greene is the 5th perimeter player. We knew that in May. He has a chance to shoot himself into the 4th spot, but Self won't want to rely upon him in certain situations because of his defensive weaknesses. Other coaches may look more at the net production. Self doesn't do that many times. In certain games, he just flat wants a certain type of team on the floor. And we know from his now famous "three quarter deny" comments regarding Lucas, that Self likely gets fixated on micro elements of each game in determining playing time perhaps a bit too much (at least that situation would seem to indicate that).
I do feel bad for the kid in the sense that his talents have not been exploited, and have not been showcased. But right now, this is a national championship season. He is a role player who can provide a big impact. He needs to embrace his role, as Self said.
If he can't embrace his role, exactly as Self expects, then he needs to go. Self spoke yesterday about the chemistry on this team. We can afford no disruptions to that, and no chance that Greene creates an undercurrent of discontent. The current dynamic on the perimeter is the engine that's driving this team. That was highlighted in Maui when Greene wasn't there. He needs to assimilate and do his job. I hope he can.
When we talk about guys that can win you games, Greene really heads the list. He's the kind of guy that can heat up and flat win a tourney game or two. And with our team, if he's cold, so what -- we have other bullets in the chamber.
This team plays fast. It's this team's calling card. How does Greene fit? 45% from three fits on any team. You just better have the right attitude.
Self's quote today about Greene: “There’s been nothing from a basketball standpoint, from a talent standpoint or skill standpoint, that has been disappointing to me in the least. We just need to all be on the same page. I think his talent is high, and I think he can give us, not only great minutes, but I think he can be a major contributor to everything we’re trying to do. The thing about it is, it’s also up to him. He’s got to buy in to everything that’s going on and not just certain things. But if he wants to do it, which I believe he does, he will. It’s not that complicated.”
This is perhaps my favorite Bill Self quote.
One may agree or disagree on Greene's playing time and role, but this is how you win. It will be a pleasant surprise if this turns out well for Greene.
We have to be optimistic still on Bolden, Allen or Azubuike, right? Just one of them? I still think it will be Bolden.
Good topic .. I say definitely "no.'
The best education is to watch Withey. Withey did a nice job of affecting shots by his mere presence. He was excellent at not leaving his feet until the offensive player shot, or a the last possible moment. Sometimes he'd just stand there with hands up. Good in the vertical chamber.
He was definitely overly aggressive Tuesday in this phase. As @justanotherfan mentioned, he'll settle down.
@benshawks08 @JRyman Realize that I did not watch the game the first time with an overly critical lense, nor did I even really notice Traylor to be honest other than the good block.
I only got focused on this because of Self's quote, and then the reaction to that quote. So I rewatched again, to see what I missed.
So, I take it then, many just don't want to see for their own eyes, judge with their own eyes, or just really don't care to see? So I guess I appreciate that the factual basis of what I've suggested is not being challenged, it is more because the exercise is painful or makes you uncomfortable.
Some really don't want the facts.
And it seems incredibly timely given what we saw from Diallo, right?
Funny, the point @jaybate-1.0 made is exactly why engaged this exercise. Because the day after the game, I said Self made those silly comments to pump up Jamari. Any dispute?
By the way, my ranking of players that was referred above is based on what our team would look like without the player. Who can we live with, or without, based on performance, and still succeed? I ranked Vick higher than #12 because of the uncertainty with Greene. I ranked Lucas ahead of Traylor because Diallo brings everything Traylor might (rendering his skill set irrelevant) from a depth perspective, and because Lucas is a superior rebounder and defender on the block. Injury or circumstance can change this sort of stuff at any time.
Mason
Ellis
Selden
Bragg
Graham
Diallo
Svi
Mick
Greene
Vick
Lucas
Traylor
@jaybate-1.0 Traylor played to give Diallo time. Ok. I guess Bragg or Mick were incapable of the same thing? This stuff that we use to create this supposed value is offered by other players, as well. We heap this faux praise on Traylor as if he brings something unique. So he took up space for 4 minutes.
Bragg and Mick hustle and play with more energy than Traylor.
Why is it that Traylor's poor play is completely ignored? The loafing down the court. The rebounds he simply misses. His poor positioning for rebounds. The failure to seal on the drive. The "double negative" is as if it didn't happen.
The guy had one offensive rebound, and then a block that was called a jump ball, and because of the jump ball, they credited him with a rebound. That was it. He did literally nothing else in the four minutes.
I struggled to see any intangible during this time. It's myth.
But your first sentence is right on point -- "Self manages all his players' egos, when he things it might help; that is part of coaching and managing."
And that was exactly my point. Traylor's performance did not warrant the praise. It was a psychological stroke to a player that sat all but four minutes in the second half. That is all it was.
To me, I'm curious how we even held and stretched our lead so dramatically with Traylor on the bench.
@Crimsonorblue22 So it's clear here, no, Traylor did not drive the basketball as you suggest to start the second half (nor at all in the second half). No he did not get fouled. He didn't draw any foul in the second half. When I saw your post, I again reviewed my DVR before heading out the door, and made the post. It appears you didn't even both checking a secondary sources, such as the ESPN play-by-play. Further Traylor "myth" morphs to assumed reality.
@BeddieKU23 Jones committed one foul in the entire second half, and that was on Perry Ellis at the 16:15 mark that resulted in free throws. It was Jones' third foul.
-@Crimsonorblue22 You said, "Mari took the ball right at their best scorer and gave him his 3rd foul. Key play to start 2nd half."
That is just untrue. Traylor did not take the ball at anyone at all in the second half. Where did you get that from? You didn't look at your DVR. He didn't score in the second half, he didn't go to the line in the second half. He didn't drive the ball, he didn't attempt a shot in the only four minutes he played in the second half. Their leading scorer, Hubbard, didn't commit a foul in the second half, fyi.
Maybe you were confused. Traylor committed a foul to start the second half, fouling their big guy when he drove to the hoop on a reach in. Possession 3.
-And by the way, Perry Ellis' comment about Traylor came after Self made his comments about Traylor in the post game press conference. Just an fyi.
-@cragarhawk - Well, Self certainly gets opinion givers like Keegan to buy in hook, line, and sinker. No independent thought. Simply a regurgitation, and some cheerleading.
After hearing Self's comments after the game Tuesday about Jamari Traylor, I was puzzled. Self said the following: "(Jamari) was the best player in the game tonight. He totally changed the second half with his energy and it became contagious.”
I had rewatched the game the Wednesday morning, early, before I went to work. I remember chuckling about a Traylor rebound because of how poorly positioned he was. I recalled a nice blocked shot (which was a bit inconsequential given we didn't translate that into points or a big play, and that Mick and Diallo each had three blocks). But my response that day here was that Self's comments were geared as a coach might do to pump up a guy whose minutes may be destined to get cut. Self has done this before, praising guys that don't seem to have really stood out. Seeing Diallo, and his performance, it seems that something has to give.
Tonight, I watched the beginning of the second half -- to see this energy. I watched each possession. I slowed it down. I rewound. What inspired me to a great degree where the comments simply assuming that coach Self was right, that Traylor was the best player -- or that he said what he said because Traylor was, in fact, the best player in the game. The comments that, naively, think that the answer is that simple.
The fact is, Self's comments are just silly. They fool no one that wants to watch critically. They fool no one who is objective. To single out Traylor given how well other guys played makes no sense from a performance standpoint. None at all. Traylor the best player? Heck, Traylor wasn't the 5th best player for Kansas vs. Loyola.
Traylor had a nice sequence where he got an offensive rebound, that after a kick out, turned into a bucket by Ellis (Possession 8 ); then the next LM trip down he blocked a shot (Possession 9). However, when you look at the game, it is absolutely comical that Self would single out Traylor for being the "best player in the game tonight." It's flat stupid if taken on it's face. But if you consider why Self likely made the comment, it is just good coaching. He's pumping up a guy that sat most of the second half -- in fact, Traylor only played four minutes in the second half. That's right, just four minutes.
So you think that's why Self mentioned him? Because the arrival of Mr. Diallo cut his time? Because Diallo just had a wildly impressive first outing, one that was much impressive and had more of an impact than nearly any performance Traylor has ever provided at Kansas? Just maybe?
What is even more silly is the "energy … became contagious." Just pure folly. Heck, Ellis hustled more than Traylor. What's new? Tell me when there was more energy, the first four minutes of the second half, or the second four to six minutes when Diallo took off? Not even close. In fact, Traylor made ZERO energy plays to start the second half. None. Zip. If you don't believe me, find one. I find this comment to be worst part of his comments.
Now, if you don't want to look at this objectively, just move along. If you can't handle the truth, take your blue pill, and look away. But if you would like to take the red pill, even temporarily, please read on. Or perhaps take the time, see what I just saw and form your own opinion.
There we a number of sequences that, to me, define Jamari Traylor and my problem with the minutes Self chooses to play him. Possession 4 is one in particular. He loafed, and then made two screw ups. But in watching those four minutes, it's obvious why he struggles. He doesn't consistently hustle, he doesn't consistently block out, he can't corral balls right in front of him, and he is many times out of position.
There were 16 possessions to start the second half before Traylor left at the 16:15 mark. Kansas began the half up 40-36. When Traylor left, we were up 49-36. Of those 16 possessions, Traylor only had a positive impact on three possessions. That's it.
16 Possessions
11 Possessions Where Traylor Had No Impact
3 Possessions Where Traylor Had Positive Impact
2 Possessions Where Traylor had Negative Impact (and one of those was a double negative)
LM: First possession, LM player dribbled to forecourt and just double dribbled. Mason was on the ball and the LM player screwed up. No Traylor Impact.
KU: Selden drove and scored. Traylor was on the low block. Made zero effort to reposition to get the rebound and actually started moving away from the basket before the ball went in that basket. No Traylor Impact.
LM: Traylor's man had the ball up top, and drove around him. Traylor committed a foul. Non-shooting. Selden then fouled. Non-shooting. Traylor's man (the big white guy) drives around him, Traylor pokes the ball out. Ball to LM. In bound to LM, the LM dribbler gets around Traylor on the baseline and kicks to open three point shooter, missed three, Traylor has nice block out and rebound. Positive Traylor Impact.
KU: However, Traylor then loafed down the court. 18:50. Ball went out of bounds. Then, after the inbounds, Graham drove the baseline. Traylor completely failed to seal his man. @wrwlumpy posted a picture of Traylor sealing a guy for Ellis on a drive from the UCLA game. This was the opposite. Easy seal, but Traylor let the man by, who contested the shot and Graham missed. Really bad by Traylor. Traylor then had the ball in his hands, fumbled it away without being touched, and fell down. Double screw up. Bad seal, lost rebound. Double Negative Traylor impact.
LM: Loyola in transition. Mason a steal. No Traylor Impact.
KU. Traylor sets a normal screen, no contact, man slides under. Selden with the miss. Traylor takes the absolute wrong angle under the block out, so he is actually under the basket. Makes no sense. Ball to LM. No Traylor Impact.
LM: LM shoots from corner, Traylor kind of close and moves to the shot, but a bit far aways. Missed shot. Mason rebound. No Traylor Impact.
KU: This is the one that made me chuckle. Mason misses a three. Traylor makes a horrible attempt at a block out, and ends up under the basket, ball drops softly off into Traylor's hands, literally while Traylor's head is directly under the basket. Traylor and his man were the only two near the basket. He kicks to Graham, who pops it inside to Ellis for the hoop. Positive Traylor Impact.
LM: Feed to LM on the post, Traylor with a very nice block. Jump ball. We get the ball on the alternating possession so he was credited with a rebound, too. It was his best play of the game. Positive Traylor Impact.
KU: Ellis hits a three. No Traylor Impact.
LM: Graham steal. No Traylor Impact.
KU: Graham scores on the drive. No Traylor Impact.
LM: For the Traylor fans, start watching now -- 16:40 through possession 16. Loyola player dribbles past half court, Traylor reach in. Nothing. Player then dribbles three more times toward Selden at the free throw line and just loses the ball. No Traylor Impact.
KU: Mason on the break gets his layup blocked. Traylor, who had been near half court is near the opposite block. The ball literally falls right to him, he doesn't grab it (should have), ball to LM. Traylor falls down again. Negative Traylor Impact.
LM: LM goes down the court. Traylor not hustling at all down the court. LM's pass gets tipped back to the backcourt, then they retrieve, push it down the court for a three. The ball hits LM's rim before Traylor is even in the frame. Shot misses. No Traylor Impact.
KU: Now more Traylor. He's lazily jogging behind all other 9 players. Ellis gets the ball on the near wing, Traylor jogs a little hard to the far block. Ellis drives. Traylor literally just stands there on the block and watches. Ellis gets fouled. No Traylor Impact.
The truth is the truth. All you have to do is watch. And all you have to do, sometimes, is look beyond the surface as to why coach Self says the things that he does. No one in their right mind would think that Traylor was the best player Tuesday night. Not even Coach Self. The comment was a targeted farce. For Traylor's edification. For a player he probably loves and respects. For a fifth year Jayhawk who has busted his tail for this team. And most of all, for a player whose role is destined to decline.
@JayHawkFanToo I love the Traylor defenses. He brings something "that cannot be quantified or characterized with number and/or statistics." Can't argue with that. But then you had to add the word "valuable."
Start Diallo now ..
Start Diallo now ..
Or I will have a cow ..
@BeddieKU23 You'll be waiting quite a while, in my opinion. I believe the injury thing is irrelevant to his inability to score over height and/or length as he hasn't been hurt his entire time at Kansas, of course.
Perry just plays smaller than he his. He crouches down most times on his post moves, he doesn't elevate, doesn't shoot at the peak on his post moves, and he doesn't use his body effectively to help create space. When your best move relates to pivoting, the Withey method is best. Hold your ground, don't leave your feet, and you'll still contest the shot effectively.
His best spot is as the 4 in the high spot, so he can shoot, drive to the bucket, and then get a post feed on a quick slide or good matchup. Driving and using the pivot is more effective than from a static spot because the defender's is moving.
Simply posting Perry up as Self has done many times nets the results we saw vs. Loyola, where, for some reason, the ball doesn't go in the hole -- that reason is that he has a thin margin for error, and when shots are contested, he can have very limited success. There are times where he can have great success on the block. We've seen him be successful, but those aren't the norm.
His field goal percentage at the rim was 58.1%, and this season it's 57.1%. Not good.
Last season he shot 39.1% from three and he's over 40% this season, for what it's worth.
Great player whose value can be maximized better with a guy like Diallo down low (or Mick, for that matter).
But I really disagree with @5541-james on bringing Graham off the bench. Our perimeter guys are our motor, our team plays fast -- Self's decision to start Mason/Graham has been a terrific one, and moving Selden to the three. Speed is going to be our calling card, along with effective shooting. Diallo will just make the speed thing more deadly.
Self has to just keep the pedal down, and not let teams slow us down.
@Jyhwk_InTigrtwn What @JRyman said .. keep posting.
@betterfireE -- I appreciate the passion for Diallo. He's our guy, and I can't wait to see him play the rest of this season.
But I was wondering, have you seen Tyler Davis' stats? Have you seen him play?
As the ESPN analysis said, "Davis is a true center with off the charts upside. He can score inside and out to about 15 feet comfortably. He rebounds in his area and has decent skills for his size."
Davis, in his first game had 16 points, 7 rebounds; second game 18 points, 12 rebounds; third game 16 points, 8 rebounds. He played against Texas -- 14 points, 4 rebounds. Against Syracuse -- 8 points, 7 rebounds. As a freshman, he has not yet fouled out, and only one game with four fouls. As freshman post player, his assist to turnover ratio is zero, meaning even 10 assists/10 turnovers. That beats some of our experienced bigs by a long ways.
By the way, Tyler Davis field goal percentage "at the rim" is 81.4%. Think that might fit in Self's system? That will decrease, of course, as he plays better opponents, but even the best players have trouble scoring at over 80% at the rim against any D-1 competition.
Free throw percentage 75%. And field goal percentage 72% overall.
And the extra added bonus, you'd likely have Tyler Davis for three season, not just one. That is really an important part of the analysis.
Play OAD Merry Go Round, or lock in a dude like Davis?
As I said in my post, if Diallo stays a second season, I would likely change my mind. A national championship and everyone's happy. Diallo's performance this season, or Davis', of course, could change the thought process, too.
Obviously, Diallo is a superior athlete. More upside. And should be a better player this season -- and I really think Diallo fits our "run first" attack.
But you can't disregard what Davis has done thus far. And certainly, you can't say the debate is over right now.
@JRyman Not saying Traylor played bad .. he didn't play bad. He actually played a bit better than normal. Normal would have been three rebounds, not six. And normal would have been a 2/1 turnover to steal ratio. He had zero assists which was a little under his normal of .8ish. So last night was a touch better. I take it we all saw the one time he set up on the block, got the post feed and ... well ... you know the rest.
But Self did what he usually does too .. he singled out a player that does give effort, and praised him after the game (Traylor). He did that for obvious reasons, right? We can see why he did that, right?
It had really nothing to do with Traylor's performance.
It had a lot to do with the obvious -- that Diallo is going to take Traylor's starting spot, and that Diallo is going to take away a lot of Traylor's minutes. Self feels bad about that.
Also, of course, for those that wanted to see, Mick had 8 points, blocked three shots, and changed other shots.
Mick's impact on the game, the net impact, is at least 50% more than Traylor.
And Bragg's impact on the game is similar or more. Skilled, hustles, long -- a great total package.
If Traylor had not played last night, anyone think we don't win by that margin?
This is so obvious -- start Diallo/Ellis, and have Mick/Bragg back them up. That's the best Kansas post rotation.
What college coach, K, Izzo, Pitino, Miller -- you name it -- wouldn't start Diallo right now, to get him used to it, to get him ready? Only one I can think of, Bill Self. The upcoming games are practice games really. No better time to introduce Diallo to his role.
@KUSTEVE Well, old Nate must have been an MU fan then.
@JayHawkFanToo You're right ... my unburied cable has been laying in my yard for four months now. But the price vs ATT was much better. We had router issues with ATT they couldn't seem to fix. For what it's worth, I bought Comcast stock about 5 years ago and rode until about mid-2014. Not bad.
Easy .. gimme the title. Like now.
I am very sorry to all impacted by the blackout and TWC. I, on the other hand, will sit comfortably in my KU den in the basement, with a cool drink, watching Diallo's debut tonight. All a product of my wife's decision to switch to Comcast.
Again, while I am truly sorry for your pain, I don't actually "feel your pain."
If you haven't yet, take some time and read @jaybate-1.0's post on the evolution of Self's offense. Well worth it.
@wrwlumpy Only if it has reference to our conference titles on the back …
And they'd need an apostrophe after the "L" -- Fool's Gold, I would suggest.
Also, for all that haven't yet, take some time and read @jaybate-1.0's post on the evolution of Self's offense. Well worth it.
If you haven't yet, take some time and read @jaybate-1.0's post on the evolution of Self's offense.
@jaybate-1.0 Thoroughly enjoyable post.
I do have a question, though .. "good ball" as you term it has seemingly been initiated this season out of the high/low -- admittedly not the quick rotation to the third side stuff, looking for the crisp Brady-made entry pass, that has slowed our pace to a crawl in the last two seasons when we have don't have the low post competence to cash in. But high/low nonetheless.
I have not seen really much of the four out/one in deal so far. We are mixing our high post into the screening as usual, but I haven't seen anything that looks like a solo post, and certainly not the dream weave at the end of last season (really a nightmare). I'll watch closer regarding the 4 man's integration into the perimeter game. Maybe I'm not processing your description properly, which is very likely.
Being hopelessly biased in favor of the high/low, maybe I'm seeing what I want to see? Possible too.
Our offense this season seems fluid, really (for 190 minutes at least). I think that has quite a bit to do with the Mason/Graham combo, and getting Selden largely out of the 2 spot.
Thanks for posting. Everyone here needs to read this post.
@jaybate-1.0 Just took a peek -- Jackson in sophomore season, .319 rpm and .331 in junior season. Pretty salty. For perspective, Nick Collison was .308 his senior season. Gold standard was Drew Gooden at .377 in 2001-02 and TRob at .373 in 2011-12. Embiid was .350.
@jaybate-1.0 I don't know, Jackson was a massive rebounder his sophomore and junior years I recall -- on a per minute basis. I do remember that from looking a while back I believe (I'll eat crow if I look later and I'm wrong). I appreciate the "hope" so to speak with Traylor. My "hope" is that coach Self is using Jamari as a placeholder for the first third of the season, perhaps. I'd be quite happy if Traylor = Jackson this season. But, alas, I regrettably have no hope of that ....
Very short on time today, but scanned this ... let's not get carried away here.
Comparing Jamari Traylor to Darnell Jackson? Darnell Jackson played in the NBA. Traylor won't sniff the NBA.
Darnell Jackson was Kansas' leading rebounder on an NCAA championship team.
Jamari Traylor has been the worst rebounder on a team that was eliminated before the second weekend the last two seasons, and prematurely in 2013.
Darnell Jackson averaged 11.2 points and 6.7 rebounds per game. Traylor not even close. And the per minute numbers bear that out. Jackson .460 points per minute and .274 rpm in '08; Traylor .252 and .215 for his career.
Further, there is literally no one (I would assume) that would even consider choosing Traylor over Jackson in one's lineup, let alone even entertaining the discussion.
Let's be reminded, as well, that Jackson could score with has back to the basket, and could score on the block. Further, Jackson was actually a big body down low. Jackson *weighed 250 pounds" -- and likely a touch more. Traylor is barely 220, if that.
Using Jackson and Traylor in the same sentence as far as contribution is approaching heresy as far as I'm concerned.
And why is there some assumption that Traylor has more will to win than, say, Hunter Mickelson? Or Landen Lucas?
First and foremost, this is a game of skill. Traylor has limited skills. No one disputes that. Jackson was a top 70 player that was very skilled.
I know we want to try to explain the inexplicable. I know Traylor has a nice story. .
Traylor can fit very well as an 8-10 minute role player. Actually, that sort of P.T. might bring out a better value in his playing time. When he plays bigger minutes, he gets exposed. 3+ seasons have shown us that.
@jaybate-1.0 Regarding your composite 5, it got me thinking. I looked at their stats. They have played a combined 42 minutes this season, matches up pretty well with Ellis and Bragg, combining for 38 (meaning post players totaling 80).
In those 42 minutes, they have combined for 14.2 points and 13.4 rebounds per game. On its face, that would seem reasonable.
If Diallo comes in and plays Embiid-like minutes, 23.1, that would leave 18.9 for the composite 5 (Traylor, Mick, Lucas).
If we prorate the composite 5's stats over 18.9 minutes, they'd be at 6.39 ppg, and 6.03 rpg. So if we played Diallo Embiid-like minutes, this would be the assumed contribution based on the first five games this season.
I would suggest that we would see a marginal drop off for the composite 5, per minute, getting less minutes. But that we don't know yet of course. We're just making assumptions.
To maintain the pace of the composite 5, Diallo have to be at 7.81 ppg and 7.73 rpg -- this would be over the 23.1 minutes per game that Embiid played.
I think all of us would like to think that Diallo could maintain this pace if he got 23.1 minutes per game.
In his 23.1 minutes, Embiid was 11.2 ppg and 8.1 rpg.
Over the course of 42 minutes, which is what the composite 5 played, Embiid came in at 20.28 points and 14.7 rebounds. That should be compared to the numbers of the composite 5 over those 42 minutes -- 14.2 and 13.4. A big difference in points but not rebounds.
Anyway, interesting to look at.
One important item is rim protection. The composite 5 is averaging 1.8 blocks per game (in 42 minutes of play), but 1.0 of that is from Mick, who has played just 8.4 of the 42 composite 5 minutes. It would only make sense that Mick loses minutes here given that he is apparently the low rung on the totem pole. So we'll lose that block per game from the composite 5 most likely.
Another key item is Bragg. Bragg's minutes have to increase. They have to. He makes us better. Who knows how that will fit in.
Let's try a combination of how many minutes guys should play with what Self could do, based on what we know if him. Again, when we see that Embiid played 23.1, and he was perhaps the best freshman post player we've ever had, that can lead us to where Diallo's minutes might be. Embiid, but for early season bench time and leaving games because of injuries or nicks, was basically a 25 mpg guy.
Ellis - 25
Diallo - 20
Bragg - 20
Composite 5 - 15 (the actual player or combination of players based on match ups and needs).
And we all have a very Merry Christmas.
@betterfireE I guess I don't understand that. We're talking guys that remain in your program for multiple seasons that are high talent players. We had Marcus, Markieff and TRob for three seasons. You'd discard guys like that, who were ranked lower than Davis, for the hope that we land guys like Diallo each season, or Cliff? Or even a one year guy like Embiid? I just don't see it.
Looking at Loyola (MD), they're really bad.
That got me looking at Loyola (Chicago) and Milton Doyle. Putting together a nice college career.
I have fond memories of Milton's brother. He really liked me.
@BeddieKU23 At first I thought Self should reward his wait with the start, but I think the first time he enters the game would be much more memorable for him. I bet Self sends him in by himself so he's the only sub coming in at the time. That will be cool.
@BeddieKU23 New avatar? In honor of Diallo, I see? I like it.
@ralster Remember who Self's big targets were instead of Tyshawn? Willie Warren and DeAndre Liggins. Names from the past. We got TT in the spring, after our national title. Interesting how things turn out.
I do think your brother-in-law is looking in the rear view mirror and not out the front window on Selden. Wayne had one big, big flaw when he got to campus -- he pulled his jump shot way back over his head. And unless you're Jamaal Wilkes ↗, that doesn't fly. We discussed his poor jump shot form here during his freshman season. Selden (and coach Townsend as I recall) got that fixed in that off season, and look at him now. Last season, Jeff Van Gundy called his jumper and NBA quality jumper. He's on the path
I'd toss this in, tell me the seasons Roy won the conference title? Now tell me the seasons he got to the final four?
I don't think I ever had frustration with Roy over not winning the conference. My memories in that regard are frustration with the gap between 1993 and 2002, and no national titles.
I do like the discussion on conference titles creating a better path to the FF. However, that places the conference titles in their proper place -- a means to an end.
Personally, I would have rather kept White instead of Oubre. Wiggins pushed White out initially, and the signing of Oubre was the nail in the coffin. I'd rather have had White.
Remember our pursuit of Jaylen Brown? Would you rather Brown or Selden at the 3? Brown at the 3 and Selden at the 2 and Graham off the bench? Svi pushed deeper in back in the rotation?
Forget it.
@drgnslayr This is "hope." I like hope. I hope too.
@MoonwalkMafia You said "Ugh. I'll never understand the question."
Man, I hear you there. You would think that your logic is unassailable.
I firmly believe that it's one of two things related to National Titles and some folks minimization of the same (not Final Fours): 1) It's just a different approach to life for some, which is fine. A very rational contentment. Being the best is not that important to some people. They can be content being really good or just loving their team. They are generally objective, but just have different priorities when it comes to sports. Or, 2) For others it's a rationalization to make themselves more content and to make them feel better about what they love, which is Kansas basketball. It's the same things we hear from Champions Drive in Columbia, Mo. No one can talk even the least bit skeptically about what you love. Otherwise, it's time to get defensive. No objectivity. Gotta love the loyalty, of course.
The FF gives you that chance to get to the ultimate -- a national title. Sign me up right now. A four team, winner take all.
Another reason to take the FF is that we already have 11 in row (conference titles). Because of our program being consistently excellent, we have lots of that.
@Lulufulu I don't disagree … when I saw that his school had been reflagged, meaning Self definitively knew before he signed him of potential academic issues (a debate we had here at the time -- whether Self "knew or should have known"), it did make me wonder.
Would Self rather have had a big that perhaps did offer a less "raw", better back to the basket scoring threat, with no academic issues, than Diallo?
That kind of makes sense to me.
@KUSTEVE Might be … and they look like a pretty decent team.
Somehow I believe that the argument against Traylor's minutes is over when we cite his significant attribute as setting "legal picks." I do appreciate the attempt to bring rationality to irrationality, but it would seem that we're really stretching it.
How many times last season did Traylor get called for illegal screens? It was nearly a once a game ritual in conference play, as I recall.
Just an example, but at 15:55 of the second half, just before the seal by Traylor on Ellis dunk that you show above, watch Traylor's moving screen. He just didn't get called for it.
I would also add that this "thin" think regarding Mickelson is astoundingly misguided. So, because he is supposedly thinner, he can't set screens "as well"? Actually, Mickelson outweighs Traylor by 25 pounds, listed only 2 inches taller (probably 3-4 inches taller of course). Traylor is not a big guy at all. It's a Traylor-myth so to speak.
Since you cited Mickelson, I would refer you back to Mickelson's performance in the WUG. He actually set a screen, and then scored on a pass to the basketball. A feat that Traylor has always struggled with. Mickelson so outperformed Traylor in the WUG, it was a knock-out. No complaints about Mick's screens, and certainly not his energy.
And the second example you cite, by the way, was a set play, where there was a double "wall" screen at the top by Ellis/Traylor. I cited it in a post last night on another thread.
I do appreciate your effort -- but why is it that the anti-real talent folks that support Traylor have had to ignore statistics and even the "eye test" and have to rely upon the setting screens thing that he failed at regularly over the last two seasons.
There is no doubt that Traylor does some good things. But worthiness for playing time should be a weight of the evidence thing -- what is the total product.
The total product is vastly inferior. If the discussion point is screens, it's over.
And by the way, someone said early on something to the effect of -- it's just like Ned Yost batting Escobar leadoff or something silly like that. No, Escobar was productive. He hit the ball. Escobar is an all star level player.
The real parallel is that it would have been like Ned Yost continuing to play Omar Infante over Ben Zobrist. Ben Zobrist came along, and Omar Infante's limited assets were suddenly less significant. Infante was a terrific defensive player -- which is more valuable that Traylor's screens, or whatever. Yet he found the bench. It is the weight of the evidence. It was also kind of like when Ned Yost batted Chris Getz leadoff or second. It made no sense. But when Yost had better players, Getz was gone.
Bragg is perhaps not quite Zobrist, but Traylor is not even near Infante. The difference over the course of a season is probably the same.
@Texas-Hawk-10 Ok, I love stats -- you up for a friendly wager on the items I mentioned? You have Traylor, I have Bragg? We can add in the offensive rating and defensive ratings, PER, and FT%.
What did you think of the relatively crude ratio I posted regarding Rebounds plus Steals minus Turnovers? Tells us something, doesn't it?
I would agree with you that Traylor for the first five games is better than Traylor of the last two seasons. But the last three games have been more indicative of what we saw over the course of those seasons. We all know that.
His offensive rating is way out of whack with what it has been over the years, so that will migrate. But that
You did not cite the PER, or the player efficiency rating. Bragg 18.5 vs. Traylor 15.8. If we're going advanced stats here, we can't avoid that, can we? Isn't that the "all in one, tell us the value of the player", stat? And even with Traylor allegedly playing pretty good, he's still lower than Bragg (a freshman, who has just played his first 5 college games).
You're not really arguing in favor of Traylor over Bragg, are you? 5th year senior vs. freshman in his first five games, and the freshman's PER is easily better than the senior already.
Traylor's PER last season was a very poor 12.4. In his best season, it was 17.2. That's who you want to go to battle with?
And Mickelson is at 22.4 this season for what that's worth (same as last season when his minutes were more scrub time -- that's interesting). Lucas, who was 13.7 last season, is at 20.9. Ellis is at 22.6, which is also his career average.
@Bosthawk Great post. I'd really welcome the possession by possession post if you ever have the desire after a game this season. Watching games like you have really does give an insight into a player, and the team. There were certain instances where Traylor was really good, of course. Usually are. And for what it's worth, there are times when he is blocking out, but there are times when he whiffs, or gets lazy -- see 2:25 of second half. This is how possessions are lost. i watched Traylor religiously last season (not exclusively, but when I re-watched games, I'd rewind and find him). To be honest, his lack of effort on the boards turned my stomach.
Here's a great example. Go to 2:25 of the second half. Watch Traylor's attempted box out. The shot goes up from the far wing. Traylor is in the middle of the lane with a big guy to his left. Traylor watches the shot an leans on the Vandy defender. This is just absolutely horrible. Look where Traylor ends up -- it's what @drgnslayr has referred to and detailed. And see the result. The ball comes off long and the offensive player can get to the ball, and creates a new possession for Vandy. Proper technique is for Traylor, instead of going his left hip to the Vandy player's right hip, to put his but into the right thigh of the Vandy player and get him moving to the baseline. This seals the box out. And that eliminates Vandy's possession. The rebounding area for the Vandy player is now substantially limited.
Now, the reason I'm more hyper focused on Traylor's lack of effort and proper technique is because his rebound rates are so low. This is why the guy drives me crazy. If he'd just use proper technique -- much like Lucas -- he'd be a much more valuable player. But as @drgnslayr has pointed out, it ain't happening.
Regarding Traylor and his shot down low -- he simply isn't worth feeding most of the time. The risk/reward isn't there. He should stay in the high spot. His ability to make those shots is much worse than our rate of shooting threes, given the point value of the shot. Like the example you pointed out. He was wiped out by his defender. Luckily, Lucas cleaned it up.
What you have reported here is, essentially, all of our bigs have lapses on defense. This is very accurate. And this is why I came here last season and was very vocal for Cliff. He'd make a big, stupid mistake. Perhaps one so big that no other post guy would make it. But the rest of his time he was pretty good, had long arms, would rebound -- and the other guys (Lucas, Ellis, Traylor) would make mistakes too. It seemed that folks that really tried hard to back Self would latch on to Cliff's mistakes without seeing Cliff's positives and the mistakes of others.
I think you are dead on right about Mickelson. He hustles every minute he plays -- he plays hard. He's long. He offers a better total package than Traylor or Lucas. The reason why I feel confident with Mick is I watched him play in the WUGs. Sold. Nothing he has done this season has changed that opinion. I feel bad for Mickelson and how Self has essentially wasted his Kansas career. You said it right -- "We all know we need a real rim protector." Mick can offer a good option there.
By the way, in re-watching games, is there any player more impressive than Frank Mason? Easily the most impressive player to me last season.
Here's something fun (I find it fun at least) -- go to 12:00 of the second half. Set play from a basic box set. Double screen across the top at the free throw line for Graham who drives around the left key area and scores. Now, teams will scout that. What will Self do? I'd bet that later we see that same play but Ellis or Traylor bolts from the double screen (perhaps going around the near high post man, thus a side screen to create some space) to the hoop for the lob from Graham. Anyway, that's what I'd do, but that's how plays can evolve after teams recognize them from scouting. That sort of stuff is a pretty cool see.
Re-watching great teams, coached by great coaches, is as good of a learning experience one could have with this great game. Last season, I watched the recording of the Gonzaga/BYU game at the end of the season. Took me nearly three hours. There are games that I can look back on where I felt that my basketball IQ increased. That is the most recent one. Incredible from an offensive perspective, contrasting approaches, just so much great scheming and offensive diversity in a game with a low number of three pointers. I also watched Duke a number of times last season, and their use of Okafer and the three point line was truly impressive. It was perhaps the best balance a team could have, inside and out. It's why I picked them to win the title before the tourney (my only correct pick in quite a while).
Great stuff. Keep it coming.
@BeddieKU23 Interesting. I didn't know he was their first choice. That is really good to know. I thought it was Simmons, Zimmerman, Raab, in that order then Diallo. Our recruiting guru @konkeyDong might have some supplemental info. It does make sense as to why Davis may have chosen elsewhere. But watching him again today, I think he would have been a nice fit. No, I don't think he would have started immediately. But, seriously, he is better at the 5 than Traylor or Lucas right now. He is only a "low" though in the high/low. Diallo is clearly a better athlete, quicker, more explosive, etc. Right now, I am excited about the word "fast" from this team.
@Statmachine - Not only so it can develop so we can win in March, but so we're better now. I'd bet a nice sum of money that Bragg/Diallo at the 4/5 can beat any combo of the other four except maybe Ellis high, Mick low. I said this before the season. I think by the end of the season there will be a discussion that Bragg is better than Ellis. At worst, we won't be concerned if Ellis is out and Bragg is in -- just like Wednesday night.
For what it's worth, I think playing Bragg minimal minutes is tantamount to coaching malpractice, given the competition (Traylor). I'd bet right now that Traylor will have more turnovers per minute this season than the freshman Bragg. And I'd bet Traylor will have more offensive fouls per minute. Fewer rebounds per minute. Few points per minute. A worse percentage at the rim. And a worse two point percentage. That would be six different bets. Bragg's good money. No one would take Traylor on all those bets vs. Traylor, but I bet everyone here would take Bragg if betting all of them.
I think when you look at things like that, it really frames why we think the way we do about Bragg. Self has to see this. His overall season plan may just be more gradual.