@globaljaybird A&M played some normal tuneups, but has just beaten Texas and Gonzaga. I think when judging a player like Davis we can't discount the rummies because all teams play them. But it is always valid to see how they play vs. certain opponents. We can see with our guys how they struggle in certain situations.

@VailHawk That's some dry humor, my man. Pretty funny. I agree completely. Very excited to see Bragg/Diallo together. Did you notice Bragg/Traylor together vs. Vandy? That was an interesting combo, too.

@ralster I have noticed the much quicker inbounding after a made bucket. It really is an important element in playing fast. It just has to be engrained as the "norm." Playing fast, adding Diallo, is pretty exciting.

@wrwlumpy That's a great point. Not only is it the style that Self is clearly pushing, but it is Self's decision to start Graham. Self very easily could have left Selden at the 2 and started Greene at the 3. But with Graham playing big minutes with Mason and Selden, we get this terrific pace that should be our calling card. Not to go too deep here, but when you don't have back to the basket scoring, transition points are a nice element to fill that void. Fits our personnel real well.

@tundrahok I don't know .. I kind of think Embiid was this crazily unique specimen that was highly skilled when he got here. But "raw" in terms of basketball experience. As you said, he was a basketball "savant." In my opinion, he had the chance to be the best Kansas player of our era, to be spoken about in terms of Chamberlain and Manning. The biggest "what if" as far as a player that perhaps we have ever had at Kansas. But in the OAD era, two years was probably all we could have expected at the top end.

@SoftballDad2011 @KansasComet We can talk and still embrace -- I'm all in on Diallo (and Bragg). What I wonder about is if we'll see TRob his first season, very sped up. Or will he be under control so he can play the game? From practice reports, it sounds like the latter. Self had some good things to say about him in practice. I do understand that it is easier for some to avoid topics that impact our team, like this OAD issue, but it seems like a core recruiting issue that isn't going away sometime soon. I love highly talented players. My question, always, is the functioning of those players under coach Self. We've got some conflicting info so far as @AsadZ alluded to -- in particular, the Cliff debacle last season. Some coaches just play the OADs. With Diallo and Bragg, who could ask for more young post talent?

And when discussing managing our Diallo expectations, remember that he was the #5 player in the country. In 2014, the #5 player was Karl Anthony-Towns. I think our expectations should be through the roof. With a guy like Tyler Davis, it would be a much different dynamic. I'm very interested in how Self handles it this season. Cliff's style obviously didn't click with Self. Seems like Diallo's will.

Now that Cheick Diallo is in the fold, it is interesting to compare Diallo's performances and impact to the one that got away, Tyler Davis, the #31 rivals player. Davis had been considered a strong Kansas lean. National recruiting analysts had Davis going to Kansas -- then poof, he chose Texas A&M somewhat out of the blue. Like all recruits, he was not ever a guaranteed Jayhawk. He might have chosen Baylor or Arizona. We don't know. Of all the players in the 2015 class, he was as likely to go to Kansas as any recruit before he committed to A&M.

But the point of this comparison is to highlight again, the non-OAD vs. the OAD dilemma we deal with each season. Davis presents an interesting comparison. Back in the summer of 2014, I posted what I thought was our Perfect Three Man Recruiting Class, Carlton Bragg, Tyler Davis, and Tyler Dorsey.

Of course, we snagged Bragg. Instead of Dorsey we got LeGerald Vick. Worked out great. But in place of Tyler Davis, we landed Cheick Diallo. My opinion on the tandem was as follows, "In Davis and Bragg, we would have two post players that would be nearly certain three year guys. Both guys that need some development. Both guys that can play in the NBA, but need KU to get there. This would not be a pit stop. It would be a destination. This package secures our post future for the near future. High talent, size, tenacity, and motivation."

Here is Tyler Davis' ESPN Profile

Strengths:

Davis is a wide body post player who has made great strides in a short period of time. He has lost over 35 pounds and plans to continue to drop weight. Davis has excellent hands, touch, feel and patience with his post moves, mostly scoring over his left shoulder with a hook or powerful drop step through contact. Davis is a good area rebounder and can block shots mostly on the ball. Davis does a good job of holding his ground on defense and playing vertical with his hands up, making the defense shoot over him. Davis handles the ball pretty well for his size and can knock down the open high post jumper with needed time and space. He is tough and competes on both ends. Davis is also a standout offensive lineman.

Weaknesses:

Davis doesn't have much left yet but getting around him to deny the ball will make you wish he was more explosive. He must continue to work to improve his conditioning in order to play for longer periods of time which will lead to being more productive.

Bottom Line:

Davis is a true center with off the charts upside. He can score inside and out to about 15 feet comfortably. He rebounds in his area and has decent skills for his size. Controlling his weight and improving his conditioning is key for high level long term success.

With Diallo, let's look at what we have so far -- really, all it has been is a disaster. It's been a distraction. It's been something that Self admitted was taking many hours in his day. It cost Kansas a lot of money fighting the NCAA. Diallo was from Mali so he couldn't play in the WUGs. There have been no positives to this point. The positives start Tuesday. But he is a presumed OAD. Our positives could last a few short months (and yes, to address the point that is always made when discussing presumed OADs, I know that he could possibly stay two seasons just like Wiggins, Oubre, and Alexander could have -- but he's clearly a presumed OAD). But again, the positives start Tuesday, and we can't wait to see him on the floor.

Self decided to manage expectations, saying of Diallo just yesterday, “He’ll give us an inside presence, a shot blocker. You know, we’ve got good bigs, though, they’re veteran guys. He’s not going to come in and change us immediately but he’s got a chance to change us a lot by February or March because he has so much raw talent, but he is raw.”

With a presumed OAD, this is flat out unacceptable if this is how it plays out. Really, I don't think it will be. But let's take Self at his word. We have the #5 player and the #5 player only has a "chance" to "change us a lot by February or March." One might say, "only at Kansas."

One might say why bother?

But we have mixed info -- Wiggins and Embiid changed us a lot much earlier than February or March. Alexander languished the entire season until other difficulties sacked him. Self has focused on the opinion that Diallo is "raw." Neither Wiggins, nor Embiid, were "raw."

So, why take an OAD that is raw? One that needs a lot of work, presumably? One that isn't an automatic game changer? Why? Because we got stuck with him. He was all that was left. If we got a commitment from another top big in the class, Diallo would have been someone else's NCAA fight. Simmons, Zimmerman, Jeter, Rabb, etc. Further, with all this NCAA stuff, it's clear that Self had to be aware of what was in store because Diallo's school had been red-flagged for two seasons. Diallo was all that was left. The reality is, Diallo might not be who Self really wanted on this team.

I don't think we've ever really discussed that. Did Self really always want Diallo, or was he a back up plan to the other top bigs?

But that always makes me wonder -- if we would have told Tyler Davis he was our guy, and that we'd only sign two bigs, would he have come to Kansas? All speculation. But certainly reasonable given our nearly unanimous posture as the favorite.

It also makes me wonder -- would Self have traded Diallo before the season started for Tyler Davis? Davis is the type of player that fits Self's "feed the post" style. The dude can score inside. Kansas, much like last season, is challenged inside.

Here is Tyler Davis this season - starting every game for Texas A&M:

21 minutes per game.

15 points per game.

7.4 rebounds per game.

Shooting 78.1% from the field.

Better yet, he is making shots "at the rim" at 85%.

Pretty impressive numbers so far.

Davis is clearly ready to play now. Texas A&M has beaten Texas and Gonzaga, along with a few low tier teams with Davis in the starting lineup. They play tomorrow in the championship game of the Battle For Atlantis, against Syracuse. It's worth watching. I saw the Texas game and Davis looked like an excellent player. Against Gonzaga, his stats weren't as good. He's a freshman. And he's got a lot of growth in front of him as a player. But he certainly isn't "raw."

But more importantly, Davis is not a presumed OAD. We'd have the kid for 2-3 season as opposed to just, presumably, one with Diallo. We'd have less pressure in recruiting for next season with two starters (Davis and Bragg) in the fold, along with Lucas. We might not have Coleby or Lightfoot -- don't know how those would have worked out.

Diallo, though, is fast. He'll increase our pace of play. He could be the perfect fit with this team, and how this team needs to win. It seems that Diallo, in with a crew that wants to play fast, might actually be the perfect fit. My concern is whether Self will let this team play to its identity. Early returns have been positive on style of play -- 190 minutes of pretty good basketball, 10 minutes of poor play. That's not too bad, of course. Again, I struggle to see how Diallo won't fit in perfectly with how we're playing.

But after seeing Davis, I'd trade Diallo right now for Davis and take my chances. But I'm hopelessly biased against OADs when other highly talented options exist. I also think Davis would be a better fit for the feed the post mantra that Self lives by. That's a big deal. When Diallo decides to stay a second season, I might change my mind. When (with Diallo) we hoist the national title trophy in April, I won't care -- life will be good.

But barring those two occurrences, will Diallo be worth it? Or would a guy like Davis have been the better bet?

@jaybate-1.0 Maybe you need to give us all a tutorial on your interpretation of Bad Ball.

@wrwlumpy "Quit bashing our Bigs. They're all we've got." That's a rousing defense.

@ParisHawk I would think so given that Stanford took away quite effectively our ability to score at the rim. They collapsed on the entry. We forced shots. If they could take away the scoring at the rim and disrupt three point shooting to such a degree, I can't imagine why they lost one game that season.

@sfbahawk Once again, you have added insightful comments to the discussion. Don't you need to tell @AsadZ about the "drivel that emanates from (his) keyboard" and tell him he contributes "NOTHING" -- as you did (all caps). Or, when you "rag on" Lucas as you did in a recent post we should assume that your comments of some higher quality or purpose?

@Bosthawk Can you tell me some stats that do tell the whole story on Traylor? Or that at least explain this a bit. That's unfair, I know -- you weren't referring to stats. But I ask if there are any I'm overlooking.

And, just checking, you don't think Bragg plays "good defense", or "moves his feet really well" (or even better), or "set picks" too, or "hustles" as good or better? He looks darn active on defense, has the reach to get boards over other players, moves his feet extremely well, can handle the ball, hustles everywhere, and, yes, sets picks.

You can have players that do these things well and who can score competently. Has anyone see Traylor ever shoot like Bragg, or ever make that nice, quick move on the block? Right.

Traylor is the classic role player, yes. Bragg is the classic standout player. Traylor might play in Israel. Bragg will play in the NBA.

Why is it that there is this great need to want to ignore the obvious -- numbers, stats, possessions? I mean, I just showed you that the other guys create more possessions each game than Traylor. Possessions = points. What good is "energy" if you can't even create possessions? Traylor is between 17%-30% worse than Ellis, Lucas, Mickelson, and Bragg for their careers in this possession stat.

And I did not even calculate in offensive fouls, which would push this worse for Traylor (I think we can all agree there even without seeing the number).

If "Energy" is his calling card, shouldn't he steal the ball? Traylor has turned the ball over twice as many times as he's stolen it over his career. That is worse than Ellis (not an "energy" guy I guess). And Ellis scores. And rebounds. And hits threes.

Not to pile on, but his player efficiency rating was horrible last season, and in prior seasons. And in 2013-14, his best season, he was the worst regular player in +/- (here's the link ↗). And in that same year, Kansas' performance without him on the floor was better +/- than when we had any other regular player off the floor.

All we have are vague, subjective discussion points in the face of overwhelming evidence.

If Jamari Traylor was not on this team, if Self did not have the option of playing him, are we a worse team; or are we better because other guys play?

That is the real issue, ultimately.

Why is it, at Kansas, we will take the #5 Rivals player ↗ and lower expectations? Seriously?

I take it everyone heard that this Drame fellow is also the "guardian" of another Mali D-1 player, Kassoum Yakwe?

I'm sure Drame is simply a nice man acting as a father figure to these players. I'm almost positive that's how it works when it comes to big-time basketball recruits like this.

Again, I'll remind everyone, if you have black and white prohibitions against certain behavior, then the line is already drawn. If you make exceptions for $10, or $50, or whatever, the line is blurry. Brightline rules work.

Now, did the NCAA simply issue the suspension to save face? Seems that way. But different questions.

@cragarhawk It's worse than February -- Self said Diallo could impact us by conference or February yesterday. I just listened to an interview on ESPN from after last night's game. This should cause all KU fans to shutter. Here's the link ↗. The first video are the game highlights, then there is Self's interview. Be patient.

Here's the quote on Diallo: "He'll give us an inside presence, a shot blocker. You know, we've got good bigs, though, they're veteran guys. He's not going to come in and change us immediately but he's got a chance to change us a lot by February or March because he has so much raw talent, but he is raw."

So, a top 10 guy has a "chance" to change us a lot by "February or March." And "we've got good bigs."

Good grief.

@Second-Prize And an important point of clarification, it was one guy that said fire Self, with a whole crew on this site opposed to that idea. I wouldn't say everything is "ok" yet.

The difference last night was one thing, and one thing only -- we were 5/16 from three vs. Stanford when we lost to a similarly tall team, and had the same issues. Last night we were 8/16 from three.

Eerily similar -- we lost by three vs. Stanford, we won by 7 vs. Vandy. Only one point unaccounted for.

Diallo and Bragg offer the only hope that we can score inside against big, long teams. Mick will be banished, so that's conversation is likely over.

It will be the three that leads us.

@Lulufulu Did you see what Self said after Diallo was cleared? He said that Diallo wouldn't really have a full impact until conference "or February."

You think it's hard watching Traylor play all those unproductive minutes in Maui? Wait until he plays ahead of Diallo over the next two months.

FreeDiallo may take on a whole different meaning.

Will Self let Wayne Selden blossom?

You know why I ask. You know where his three point percentage was last season when … er .. you know.

He was 12 of 17 from three in the Maui tournament.

And I hope everyone saw that Self said he hoped we are playing better offense in a month than we are right now.

It's those darned threes. You know, when they go in, it makes you a worse team.

@Hawk8086 @JRyman - Yes, yes … it is puzzling, is it not? The standard unproductive performance. I just don't see the allure here. And please don't say defense. There is not a rim he's been known to protect. Look at the Vandy drive at 12:40 of the first half .. kind of just stood there and let it happen.

I just can't even begin to figure this out. 28 minutes, 3 points, 4 rebounds, 2 turnovers, no steals.

So he created .071 possessions per minute played. Compare to .333 for Bragg, .192 for Ellis, .214 for Lucas, and even .25 for Mick (in his 4 minutes of play).

The formula I'm using is rebounds, plus steals, minus turnovers, divided by minutes played. A rough representation of the net possessions created by a player.

Against UCLA, again, Traylor was the low man on the totem pole: Traylor .150, Bragg .400, Ellis .222, Lucas .307, and Mick .200.

Try Chaminade -- poor opponent. But Traylor still was on low extreme low end: Traylor .287, Bragg .416, Ellis .727, Lucas .588, and Mick .083 (Mick had zero rebounds in 11 minutes, one steal, which "net" was still better than Traylor's effort vs. Vanderbilt; and against a poor opponent, Bragg, Ellis and Lucas far out performed Traylor).

I'd really like to add in offensive fouls to this calculation. I'll have to find that stat separated from total fouls, just don't have time this morning.

What is even more disturbing, his rebounds per minute played in Maui was worse than his horrible ratio last season -- .182 last season, .177 in Maui.

We can't look at the three games alone, though. Season stats are season stats and he did rebound the ball well in the first two games. Season ratio .247. Well see if it trends towards his career rate of .213 (or worse), or if it can stay at or near .247.

But we won.

@ParisHawk I love the Black reference .. he was the only big that could score vs. Stanford. The fact that he made an NBA roster was no coincidence. Wish we had the dude four years.

Get ready for this February box score:

Ellis 26 minutes.

Traylor 21 minutes.

Diallo 14 minutes.

Lucas 11 minutes.

Bragg 8 minutes.

Better minutes distribution starting Tuesday:

Ellis 25 minutes.

Bragg 20 minutes.

Mickelson 20 minutes.

Diallo 15 minutes.

Traylor/Lucas 0 minutes.

Who here thinks we would be worse starting Tuesday if that occurred?

@justanotherfan Truth is, KU hasn't been good inside since Embiid got hurt.

Why do I dread what our minutes distribution will be?

This should be cause for celebration.

If Self plays the Traylor/Lucas contingent more minutes than Diallo/Bragg come January, no post recruit should ever come here again.

@ralster nice post. You are right. We have won without three pointers. And our 2012 team epitomized a team the type of team that could do that. Including last season, 2e haven't shown the ability to score inside like TRob did against bigger/longer teams -- tonight will be a test of that.

I would suggest that this team, much like last year's team, is a perimeter based team. The strength of this team lies on the perimeter. This team, much like last year's team, needs the perimeter focus (and the requisite three point shooting) to win the national title.

This team is and can be more potent from the outside than last season's team. Bragg brings a terrific perimeter player we didn't have. And Mickelson can step out and shoot (see the step out shot at 4:00 min mark vs. Chaminade -- bad, bad opponent, but an example of a skill that translates to any opponent).

I just think it's early with this team. We don't know which way Self is going to jump. We know what history says. Let's hope we see a softening.

I think @AsadZ has taken the discussion to a little different level. It's worth having, quite frankly, regarding Bill Self. I think it really frames for most of us where we're at -- we just want improvement. We don't want him fired. Not even close. We all (generally) like the guy. We know he represents our program well. And as @drgnslayr said, "be careful what you ask for". Heck, look at the mediocrity two great programs in our present tourney in Maui have fallen into -- UCLA and Indiana. However, fan bases do make title demands. Look at LSU in football. Running off Les Miles who has the #1 recruiting class for 2016. It is an incredible roll of the dice.

Again, I hope @AsadZ posts his thoughts regularly as the season goes on and is not dissuaded by those that take the "stop posting" approach. You, me, any of us, are no more KU fans than he simply because of his opinion. His fire Self opinion is a nice counterweight to a few of the Self worshippers we have here. @AsadZ said "But I will continue to demand improvement and accountability for Self." Nothing wrong with that. Keep it up.

On BG, one correction that seems pretty obvious -- @AsadZ said that @ralster said BG was "a locker room cancer." @ralster said "Self is trying desperately to not let Brannen Greene turn into a locker room cancer." Much different.

I point that out not to be nit-picky, but because I will take that leap. Locker room cancer. When, as a player, you bitch and moan in public, to the face of the coach, that's not just pre-cancerous cells. It's stage 1 at least. More like stage 2. Self chose the aggressive treatment.

I believe Self's suspension of Greene is a tremendous message to the rest of the team. It sets the right tone. And it is unequivocal. It draws the right line, in my opinion. Is it "player friendly" in the day of the pampered CBB player? Could it hurt recruiting? Different question. But in the vacuum of winning a national title, it was absolutely the correct path.

As @Crimsonorblue22 said, "coach didn't take that chance away, BG did". When you walk into Walmart and steal a shirt, you take the chance that some overweight security guard pulls out his taser. You risk an apparent overreaction. You become a criminal.

Mouthing off to your coach as Greene did in a public manner is crossing that line.

Six games, of course, is harsh on its face. But three games would have meant no Maui as well. And could you really permit a kid suspended for insubordination to travel and enjoy? I don't think so. And we don't know what else has occurred. Whether there have been behind the scenes blowups, maybe in Self's office. Pure speculation. My guess is that the duration of the suspension gives us insight.

And don't be surprised if sometime next week Self says that he's very proud of Brannen Greene for how he handled the suspension, that he's really attended to his business the right way -- and he reduces the suspension to four games or something like that. That would not be surprising to me. Actually, I think it will be a bit instructive on Greene's standing. If this suspension goes the full 6 games, that will tell me things aren't likely to ultimately reconcile. If it gets reduced, it tells me that Self, in a measured fashion, is working hard to discipline and reconcile. It would be the perfect tact on this, if Self wants this to reconcile -- "if."

@JayHawkFanToo I'll find the quote, but Brannen Greene just a few months ago commented that he could create his own shot, or something like that … I'll have to look. I don't think I'm dreaming it. I agree, he's not a "create your own look" guy. However, he has hit shots with guys in his face. All he needs is a system built to exploit him. And I think this system could exploit him, inside/out, step in and shoot. Just need the focus on that element. But if he's going to run his mouth at the coach, it's moot.

@jaybate-1.0 No argument from me there -- mainly because you talk over my head. But as my small brain processes, I would agree that a large part of the game is scheming and adjustments.

That we become Missouri.

@jaybate-1.0 I think that the defense thing is overstated. Now, you can attempt to take away three pointers by positioning five guys on the three point line. But no one does that over course.

The concept that a defense really can take it away defies the realities of the game given that you also have to defend the two point area, lobs, post feeds, give and goes, etc.

How many times to teams drain threes in the last second when the only thing that can tie the game is a three, when the opposition is hell bent to stop the three.

I can tell you this with confidence. If a coach is going to protect the basket, with roughly equal talent, I can scheme to get three point looks. Period. Obviously your fine D-1 coaches can do the same.

One thing Self will never say is, "I can't scheme to get three point looks." I have never heard him say that.

The idea that with KU's talent, we are going to be dictated to --- to the extent of believing we simply can't get good three point looks and make three point shots--- I would suggest, is very flawed.

If a team is going to make that vast of a commitment, then we should have a score-fest at the rim.

Here's a link to Ken Pom ↗ wherein he demonstrates that the coaching impact on three pointers is not as significant as some might think, particularly on three point accuracy. Not definitive, of course, just some interesting info.

@JRyman Interesting. Actually, it's coming from a guy who was not a good shooter. But was a defense first player. Self even referred to that on Sunday at an event in Maui.

I don't think we have enough data right now to reach this conclusion -- that we will shoot the three well vs. poor teams, but not against good teams. But it makes sense that there might be a disparity, of course. At least a small one. I would hardly count Chaminade. They aren't even a bad team. They're horrible.

However, I think the possible cause is worth reviewing.

How did coach Self approach offense vs. MSU? How much did the butt pucker?

The one thing that I will hold to as much as anything else regarding Self's offensive approach is that he does not work hard to put his team in a position to get open three point looks. It's more a flow of the offense thing. Which makes it quite easy for teams that have that defensive mindset or approach, to disrupt our three point output a little easier. Not a lot, mind you, but enough so that there may be a disparity.

Further, it is clear in the years upon years of watching coach Self, that the offensive mindset is to pound the ball inside. Self becomes more focused on that against better opponents of course, or when playing with a lead, or in irrational moments like his retrenching in the second half vs. Utah (which of foretold in the halftime interview).

This is all coach driven. Every bit of it.

Luck seemed to have a role in his own NCAA Violations ↗.

If you adopt him, does that mean he gets to inherit your vast fortune should you pass?

@Statmachine If they suspend Self, or anything close, we'll be at the NCAA's doorstep in Indianapolis with torches in hand.

@Crimsonorblue22 Well, whether you like it or not, or disdain it or not, if I think your words might be wrong, I might decide to reply.

That is unless you, like coach Self, are beyond reproach.

And, as usual, only sniping and cute little responses vs. substance. But to each their own.

I think the .812 is simply to put this all in perspective.

On the other hand, UConn's four rings, Duke's rings, Izzo's final fours also give perspective.

I think what we see now are just some trends that are concerning, that's all, including recruiting patterns.

That's really what my thread post was about. It's not panic because of the MSU loss, it's the patterns we have seen.

I think we should start 8-1 regardless of the lineups we trot out there, given our opposition. We might not have a real good idea what this team is about for quite some time.

@Crimsonorblue22 said ".... but then again I don’t think coach dislikes the 3."

Parsing words.

How about "disdain" instead of "dislike"?

Disdain: the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one's consideration or respect; contempt.

That's the right word.

I fully expect us to win the Maui tourney. it makes sense that we're 8-1 headed to San Diego State on December 22 (a game that might have that Temple feeling from last season).

All of the lineup discussion, etc., will really have more teeth come the turn of the year. Lots can happen between now and then. One game is just one game.

@jaybate-1.0 - When Self comes out this strong, which he never has -- ever, I'm listening.

My point in posting this thread was to inspire discussion related to an important element in Self's approach to coaching. It's a pretty impressive line of comments.

First, though -- @AsadZ: I do appreciate very much your passion and comments. Regarding coach Self, though, think of coach Self as your brother. He's one of us. He's ours. We're his. We're in this together. if you truly think he should be fired, that's fine. But I'd ask that given everything that you know and what he's done for this program, is that what you would do if you could make the choice? My personal view is that the discussion points are focused on "how can we improve." "We" includes Self. I've said this before -- I love the high/low. I love Self's approach to the game. When others have called for a major change in the system, I have suggested strategic tweaks. My frustration is that Self has an extreme form of tunnel vision. @Bwag referred to it as a "blind spot."

@drgnslayr Your post was terrific. You have mentioned this lack of player development a few times. When we see Traylor marginally improve, Selden struggle for two seasons, Tyshawn Taylor not really improve until the last 15-20 games of his career, it does cause questions. I would offer that it has a lot do with talent as well. I said this after the first season of Jamari Traylor. There is a very discernible ceiling. I have said that about Lucas. A guy like TRob, not so much -- there is a ceiling, but it's hard to see. I said the opposite about Tyshawn. His approach to the game held him back, as opposed to being a pass first PG. I think he could have been amazing. But when you have Traylor and Lucas, they can only be so good. No matter what Self does, they aren't going to be reliable back to the basket scorers vs. top D-1 competition, no more than you are. There is a talent ceiling.

You have made a great point on Traylor and his rebounding. It is direct and on point -- he fails to block out, he overruns the ball, he doesn't get to the right angle, he goes under the basket. I would suggest that he is bumping into his ceiling. What is easy for some, is not easy for others. I've watched him a lot. And I think it is mental. I have seen him simply freeze or do the slight drift on a shot (this is usually what happens). It's like a mental lapse. He just doesn't think quick enough in that situation. Kind of the opposite of Frank Mason.

@globaljaybird Yes, you were on the Mick bandwagon. From my standpoint, I just hadn't seen enough from him to be sure. But the WUGs were definitive. It's all about Red Pill/Blue Pill, my friend. Of course, that blue pill makes life mighty nice.

@Blown I would say that MSU is just one game. So we should not think this is what we will have this season. It was a second half collapse. The reason for the upset from me is that we saw a team get out coached vs. Stanford; we saw a team function at a high level last season -- 21-4. We saw Self dismantle that approach. We saw us limp home and get embarrassed by WSU. We saw the WUGs and Self saying "he learned a lot. We hoped for some adjustment or change from Self (or tweaks) heading into this season. MSU seemed to indicate more of the same, and worse, low three point rate. But we'll see how it plays out.

@Bosthawk - Yes, I did re-watch the game. There were instances where Traylor did play well. Most games there are. He's not a total disaster of course. He has some very nice stretches from time to time. He does move at a good pace on defense, but against size, he's way overmatched. Question, though, do you think Mickelson's (instead of Lucas) would have changed the dynamic on the drives to the hoop by MSU; and second, Mickelson could have functioned better offensively down low vs. MSU than Lucas?

@JRyman That is a great point about coaching to the other team's style. I suspect it is talent based. Meaning, if we had TRob, there would be no discussion. Self may see Lucas and Mick as close in talent, and thus will select based on match-up. But you're saying what I'm saying. Play the best guy -- impose your game plan. I'm all for adjustments, though. Against certain opponents, you have to adjust -- MSU wasn't that type of team. Use your best players to do that. Now, I will say that if we're playing a team with a quick 6'8" post man, that plays small, that has a quick 4, it is hard to play a guy like Mick there, just like it was hard to play Withey or Cole. That's an extreme example. I like the high/low. I'd run that. BUT … an emphasis of creating three point looks out of that. It would be a great balance. And really, it was much of what we saw the first half of last season (but with perhaps a few more threes).

@Lulufulu I would hope Self would play Diallo over Traylor and Lucas. Could you imagine Ellis, Diallo, Bragg and Mick? Wow.

@KUSTEVE Maybe that applies to all quality opponents? Remember, we tried to pound it inside against UK last season. Remember what Self said? He said we don't change who we are just because they're tall -- he said that after the blow-out. That quote floored me.

@VailHawk Thank you very much for your reply. I think you literally sent @JayHawkFanToo into convulsions. Your questions are all very well placed. Questions 1 and 2 are really the puzzling ones for me. There is no rational argument that the pair of Lucas/Traylor are better for winning basketball than Mick/Bragg. None. One game, maybe. Overall, no way.

On your Selden point, Selden deserved the bench last season. I suggested that he move to the 6th man role and see if that sparked him. Of course, I was so impressed by his WUGs performance that I crowned him Big 12 POY for this season. I think Self should let Selden play out for 10 games then assess. Moving Svi to a starter would hopefully spark Selden, who would trade roles with Svi.

On three point shooting, I do agree with Self. You can't always rely on shooting. But you can't always rely on your inside game, either. Self laments missing bunnies from the other night. Case in point. It's a matter of playing to your strength without discarding your identity. Play the high/low, play inside/out, but scheme and focus on creating three point looks so your shooting appx. 18-20 per game. Some games will be a bit less, some might be a bit more. Self has set plays he could run 6-7 times per game for three point looks. I've seen them. They're good plays. The weave creates those looks, like the other night. It's not a set play for a three, but one where the three is created in flow.

By the way, you kid about the assistant coach thing. But I'm guessing his assistants have made suggestions and have been shut down, or know better than to make suggestions. Bill Self is the boss, micro-manager, all powerful. That has its advantages, for sure, but it presents objectivity problems (in all leaders).

@KansasComet - Put yourself in John Calipari's spot. Or Coach K. Or Izzo. How do you differentiate your approach from Kansas? What's interesting about that five start talent is that it usually helps you win.

@joeloveshawks Great point .. no dunks. I love your example. That tells me we were out coached in that element. No shame vs. Izzo. But he stopped us. No lobs, no inbounds dunks, nothing. Out coached in that respect.

@DcHawker - Thanks .. I always want to make sure there isn't sarcasm font. But I'll read it literally. Appreciated.

@DoubleDD It is interesting. But do you notice the softening? "mostly right"?

This great stuff from coach Self. This is aggressive, it is factual, it goes directly to the point of his eligibility.

What I like is that he challenges the completeness and competency of the investigation. Further, the unreasonable tactic of delay, that results in a de facto suspension, as Self has referenced before.

It's been quite a week. The big build up for Tuesday's game vs. Michigan State. The extreme overconfidence displayed by many Jayhawks' fans, including myself. And then the let down of a collapse in the second half.

I wanted to hit on some items from the MSU game that I felt were important. I sat out the commenting after my initial post, and really just read the comments. Great insight by many here. But here are some thoughts:

1. Why Landon Lucas?: Many of us pondered "why Landon Lucas?" Truth is, Landon is our best rebounding big man. However, Landon does little else when he is on the floor. Bill Self, in his post game interview, was quoted as follows: : "Self said Michigan State’s defensive style — they three-quarter fronted the post — demanded the presence of Lucas, who is the Jayhawks’ best big man at sealing the post and creating angles. 'That’s Landen Lucas’ best game,” Self said. “That’s what he does. He plays to getting answers. So I thought that was the percentage play for us, to play that well'.” So Self's decision was not based on rebounding.

2. Insight On Self's Rationale: This quote from Self is our best insight regarding the question of "why" he chose Lucas over Mickelson or even Bragg. It is also terrific insight into "why" Self makes puzzling lineup decisions overall -- decisions that the masses on the outside might not understand. However, this does not mean that Self's decisions are correct. Actually, it demonstrates the irrationality of Self's approach.

3. Paralysis by Analysis: We've heard the phrase. An individual can't get to the correct decision because they overanalyze things. Many times a decision just can't get made. Other times, the correct decision is overlooked by hyper-focusing on items that, in the big picture, aren't important. They focus on little bits of information, and place too much focus on that information. I've suspected for quite a while that Bill Self does exactly that -- he makes decisions based on a certain item of information, while missing the bigger picture. While missing the much simpler analysis. Can't see the forest for the trees. Folks that are intellectual, so to speak, in their approach, a susceptible to this paralysis. I"ve been around a lot of coaches over the years, multiple levels of youth sports through college. This is a very real dynamic. It's very real in everyday life, as well. The quote regarding the rationale for playing Lucas evidences this "paralysis by analysis" because the stated logic is largely irrelevant to the bigger picture.

4. Historical Paralysis: Over the years with coach Self, we've pounded our heads against the wall as to "why" coach Self values experience to a much greater degree than other coaches. Why he is many times resistant to simply go with the commonly viewed "better player", many times the player that is the younger player. "Why" has been the question. I remember a poster at kusports.com -- a negator that went by jayhawkinnebr, or something like that. Had a cucumber as his avatar. He said one time, "Bill Self plays Brady Morningstar because he can do one thing well, throw it to Cole." (or something to that effect). It was sheer brilliance. This is Bill Self. Many of us saw Tylel Reed and Brady Morningstar on the floor, and we were frustrated. We saw Elijah Johnson and Travis Releford on the bench. The answer is the analysis that caused the paralysis -- each player did something the coach saw as crucial. Brady, the post feed. Reed, maybe crisp ball reversal. Obviously, Reed was smart, given his current avocation. I'll bet quite a bit smarter than the average KU hoops player. We saw Oubre sit. We saw Cliff sit. It's funny, but we had folks here actually argue that Lucas and Traylor should play over Cliff - a guy who just made an NBA roster. The reason Cliff wasn't player was because of Bill Self, and Bill Self's approach the "merit." And we wonder why we could seal the deal on anyone other than Bragg last season until late, and why we have a marginal top 100 recruit as our only "in the bag" guy right now. Different topic. The Cliff effect.

5. Flawed Approach: This approach, I believe, is significantly flawed. It is flawed because it leads to the inferior player being on the floor. I have posed this question to the KU faithful here now multiple times, who's better, Jamari Traylor or Carlton Bragg? Actually, my phrasing was "If you could have Traylor or Bragg this season, who would you want on your team?" I have challenged anyone to speak up if they'd prefer Traylor. No one has. And that's the point. Carlton Bragg is better. No doubt. Unassailable. So why does Bragg play 11 minutes and Traylor 18? It's because of Self's flawed analysis. Same question - If you could have Hunter Mickelson or Landen Lucas on your team the rest of this season, who would you prefer? I would suspect that question is a little closer call, but who here would prefer Lucas? The reality is that with Lucas, you have a one trick pony - he does rebound. With Traylor, Self had previously said in response to a question from Tom Keegan about why Traylor plays, Self said "Just energy." Self's approach disregards a very simple concept -- just play the better player.

6. Self Missing It -- The Sealing Quote. Bill Self said that he went with Landon Lucas because he did a better job sealing to receive an entry pass, and he thought that would work better against Michigan St., given the way Michigan St. fronts the post. On many levels, this is ridiculous. One one level, it is not. On that level, let's grant Self his point. i'm sure he's right that Lucas does this best amongst big guys. With that in mind, what else does Lucas do (or not do) and what else is there to consider? a) Defense first - Self has insisted that we need to win with defense. Landon Lucas is rented mule defensively, as in, getting beaten as if he is that rented mule. Lucas has very limited ability to defend the post or change shots. We saw that last season. He can't stop anyone with any sort of skill level. And further, he is not a rim protector. If you have the game recorded, go to the 6:50 mark. An MSU player drives into the lane, in Lucas' face, easy bucket. Just one example. b ) Post-Scoring - The folly of Self's comments on the reason he played Lucas seems quite obvious -- Lucas has no real post scoring ability. Go to the offensive series directly following the defensive series noted above. Lucas seals, gets an entry pass, and can't score at the rim. What is surprising about this? And I don't have to spend time on Traylor near the bucket, right? His back to the basket skills are non-existent. c) Running the floor - Self has made a big point about wanting to play faster. Lucas is the antithesis of that approach. He's slow, and plodding.

7. Self Missing It, Again -- The At The Rim Scoring: More quotes. Last season, Kansas was horrible scoring at the rim. We cited the stats regularly. And it was obvious from our performances. Self said this after the game at kusports.com, after KU missed what were termed as "bunnies": “It’s the same story as last year. We can’t get the ball in any tighter,” Self said of inside feeds. “Guys double clutching. We got the ball in to six inches sometimes and several times came out with nothing, some air-balls. We’ve got to improve there." Note to Coach Self -- with your chosen personnel (Lucas/Traylor), we aren't going to improve there. Coach Self is completely oblivious to the reality of his favored personnel of Ellis, Traylor, and Lucas. Ellis has skill. He finds a way many times. But Lucas and Traylor can't handle the job. They can't score on the block. So we're getting the ball inside, "we can't get the ball in any tighter", but we can't score. Why is this surprising? And no, we can't get any better with your chosen personnel (Lucas/Traylor) -- not against good teams like MSU. Against lesser teams, sure. But that's the real fool's gold. The illusion that we can score inside when we play weaker opponents. And as we saw last season, that didn't work all of the time. And this is nothing new. As Self said, it's the same as last season. This is why committing to Cliff Alexander would have been the most reasonable approach last season. Of course, later events made that moot. But the issues remain the same, as Self said.

8. Self Missing It, Yet Again -- The Bunnies: The post game "bunny" discussion was comical. It's as if Bill Self lives in a vacuum. He completely ignores the defensive efforts of our opposition in creating difficulty inside. He is ignoring reality. We miss "bunnies" vs. MSU (and Stanford for that matter) because of their defense. MSU was active, in our face, and challenging each shot. With post players of limited skills, Kansas will fail inside in that environment. It's exactly why we lost to Stanford. Stanford was big, and Perry Ellis (3-10) and Jamari Traylor (1-8 ) couldn't match up. Tarik Black (6-8 ) could match up. Missing "bunnies" happens for a reason most of the time. Self's mantra is to challenge shots. Why? Because folks miss challenged shots more often. That's the real explanation. More skilled big guys can score through the challenges.But against MSU it is a misrepresentation to imply that we mainly missed open shots at the rim. Our shots were aggressively challenged. Self is creating a false reality, convincing himself that those missed "bunnies" were the real culprit. We are a little smarter than that.

9. Back To the Basket Scoring: Self conceded in preseason that he was concerned about his team's back to the basket scoring. I addressed that topic and Self's quote a few weeks ago in this post about back to the basket scoring. Self, after the game Tuesday, again cited the back to basket scoring saying that for "us to win big, consistently, [we have] to be able to score with our back to the basket some." We've watched enough KU basketball to know. I'm sorry, the secret is out. Lucas is a below average back to basket scorer, and Traylor's back to the basket game is non-existent. Bill Self said after the game, "If guys struggle finishing from three or four feet with defense on ‘em, the whole thing is trying to make it an easier shot. We actually did that fairly well, we just came away with very little. We’ll get better at that.” No, that's not entirely true. You have to have players that can score with the defense "on 'em." Defenses will be "on 'em." They were "on 'em" all last season. Thus the futility of Lucas/Traylor. Merely now, in November, saying the answer is getting easier shots is pure folly and delusion. It's the same delusion that plagued Self's decisions last season. Lucas and Traylor aren't going to miraculously become back to the basket scorers.

10. Play The Better Player - Mick over Lucas: Seems simple. It is. Play the better player. The rub is, so to speak, one's assessment of "better." And this, I think, has been a paralyzer for coach Self. The Lucas comment is a perfect example of what I think is going on. Self is missing the big picture down low. The big picture is that Hunter Mickelson is better than Lucas or Traylor. Mick can rim protect, he help limit penetration by opposing players (see that example on Lucas at 6:40), he has touch and skill around the basket -- Fran Fraschilla said "Hunter Mickelson picking up where he left off at the World Univ. Games. Can score inside", and Mick can hit that 10-15 foot step out jumper. How do we know this? We've seen it in action. Further, Mick is not slow and plodding like Lucas. He does run the floor aggressively. We've seen his score on the break, and on lobs. Further, Self has even said that Mickelson plays with energy. Does anyone say that about Lucas? The "we don't see practice" stuff is baloney. We can see performance in the games. And we see incompetence from Lucas and Traylor. This is not to suggest that Mick is perfect, or won't have bad games. He's the better play over the long term of this season. Your total results will be better. Committing to him right now, full time rotation player over Lucas. Start him.

11. Play The Better Player - Bragg Over Traylor: Watch Bragg in the high/low. He's a natural. He's made feeds from the top that defy logic. Self really wants to create scoring down low? There's a partial answer. If Self wants to create scoring down low, if he's really serious about that, then Carlton Bragg should be in that spot. He's the better passer. If Self laments our inability to feed the post as he did last season, if it's genuine, then there is no denying Bragg. Further, Bragg can clearly drill the 18 footer -- he's a tremendous shooter. He did it twice Tuesday. He can shoot. Do we ever see that from Jamari Traylor? Bragg proved at the WUGs and games leading up to MSU that he is an active rebounder. Much more so than Traylor. Bragg's goose egg would be the anomaly much like Traylor's 7 boards is an anomaly. And many times, boards come in bunches. Bragg has a low post game -- it's not stellar, but it is far superior to Traylor. He has the ability to hit a turnaround jumper on the block, or go over with a baby hook. Traylor does not. Bragg is longer and quicker than Traylor. He handles the ball much, much better. His ability to attack the rim is more diverse than Traylor, whose dribble drives are only right sided, and simply lowering the head and going. Traylor has no ability to adjust on the dribble as does Bragg. Bragg is a superior basketball talent, an NBA talent, who brings winning basketball skills to the court. And Bragg's defense appears to be solid. One of the things that I've seen over the years is when anyone questions Self's lineup decisions, a small contingent works awfully hard to justify his decision, mostly referring to subjective things like defense -- hyper-focusing on certain failures of the alternative player while ignoring the flaws of Self's chosen player in the same context. Perhaps, maybe, those same folks will open their minds to possibility that Self is flat wrong. That Self's is limiting this team's ceiling. Otherwise, please tell me why Traylor gives us a better chance to win than does Carlton Bragg. Like my comment with Mick, Bragg isn't perfect, he'll struggle, but he's the better player by a long ways. Go with him now. If Self doesn't start Mick, he could start Bragg with Ellis and go quick. Off subject, as above, could this be a reason why our recruiting is an issue right now?

12. Mistaken Analysis: I was at least a little entertained by @Texas-Hawk-10 after the game. His defense of Lucas and dismissal of Bragg evidenced, respectfully, an unawareness of the big picture (did I say that nice enough?). I will say many of his comments have been spot on. But his defense of Lucas was that Lucas had 7 rebounds. For that matter, Traylor did too. He then lit into Bragg saying, see, he had no rebounds and 4 points in 11 minutes. Stats matter. He cited Mickelson in his 3 minutes of play. This sort of approach is extremely flawed. And I agree. Stats matter. But with Lucas and Traylor, we have a significant and undeniable book of futility. We have history. Last season, Traylor had 10 rebounds in the season opener, and then 7 against Kentucky in the blowout. But finished at .182 for the season, per minute. He had 4 rebounds in the 32 minutes in the exhibition games. While Lucas does rebound well, he does nothing else well. He's not a rim protector, he doesn't run the floor, he can't score down low, he doesn't have a jumper from 10 feet, he has nothing. How do we know this? We just do, right?

13. @Jesse-Newell's Comment On Self: In response to a question about Traylor and his playing time, @Jesse-Newell said the following, "Each of us has biases. I think Self likes him as a person and overlooks a lot because of that." If that is true, Self is not doing his job. When there are inexplicable decisions, this sort of explanation makes more sense. Illogical reasons explain illogical decisions.

14. "Self -- "Just Like Last Season": Self's comment about our failures at the rims, and it being "just like last season" should be very concerning. In a big game, Self reverted to form. @Texas-Hawk-10 said after the WUG -- Self hasn't changed, see how he handled the Germany game. That's what should concern us. Self reverted to form vs. Germany, or as I said at the time, his butt puckered. He refused to use the rotation of players that got him there. If we would have lost, it would have been a clear choke from the bench. But we eked it out, so all was justified. But now, we start anew. I said this during the summer -- Self saw our problems last season. We all did. It is his job to adjust to make sure we're not left with the disorganization and poor play that concluded last season. It is his job to adjust to his talent. I suggested specific tweaks to the high/low. I've watched. I don't see anything substantively different. The nay-sayers saying Self would not adjust appear to be correct. And guys like me, who thought he would adjust, appear to be wrong.

15. Haunting Reminders: I saw a funny comment that explained Brannen Greene's suspension. That, of course, he shoots three pointers, and Self sees that a "conduct detrimental to the team." Only it isn't that funny when we see another season of the same tripe. What we saw Tuesday was a haunting reminder of 2014-15, only Self picked up where he left off. We took just 12 three pointers outside of the last minute. Just 12. Svi and Greene took zero three point attempts. It was interesting, Self commented that MSU won "basically on jump shots." It's Self rationalization that the victory by MSU was not quite as worthy as another type of win might be. But here we are again. A coach that devalues the jump shot, that has a team that can't score inside against good competition, a team Self already said again was of his best shooting teams, with the player Self said was the "best shooter" he's had at Kansas (Brannen Greene). Meanwhile, we're playing Landon Lucas, who can't score reliably at the rim anyway, because he can seal on a three quarter deny defense? And we're continuing to give Traylor huge minutes when he is an offensive albatross, gets pushed around, has limited skills, and is a poor rebounder? This is Kansas basketball?

Someone is not seeing the forest for the trees.

@wrwlumpy Are you saying because I support the suspension, it contradicts with him being my starting three? I'm sorry, my small brain doesn't understand the contradiction you are referring to between the paragraphs. Please clarify if you could.

And as an fyi, you can easily create shooting opportunities for guys (even slow ones) with certain plays and screens. How many ball screens did we set for Greene Tuesday, for example, when he had the ball? I don't know. I've boycotted rewatching that game until tonight. Letting blood pressure lower.

A little two man game with a guy like Ellis setting the ball screen would seem just the medicine -- at least a handful of times a game. You might get two clean looks out of that. If they switch, you might get a look or two with Ellis to the hoop.

And OSU's offense is not just trying to get Forte open. It is an element of the offense. Sometimes he is a sheer decoy. But I'm not a fan of running guys around like that at all, like they do with Forte at times. How OSU uses Forte, though, has no bearing on creating open looks for Greene.

Our recruiting difficulties are puzzling .. my thoughts from a couple of years ago. Just Say No To OADs At Kansas.

You have an even broader approach, eliminating the five star guys.

Given our recruiting issues, a great discussion.

Ok, I've got to break my self-imposed hiatus from posting since last game for this. I've been trying to take in all of the comments and insights. A kind of absorption period.

Anyway, I really wonder what this is all about. Frankly, I don't care. This demonstrates that he is unreliable. Six games is a big suspension.

If he got mouthy with Self over playing time, as @RockkChalkk referenced, I still don't care. A player may be right, but a player is a player. The coach is the coach. And it's not like Greene should be surprised by his marginalization. The whole world knows the deal here.

I agree with @Texas-Hawk-10. I would consider cutting bait right now. Maybe the suspension is a nudge to see if Greene will make the decision.

I hold to my belief that this (Kansas) was a real bad fit for Greene. His skill set (three point shooting) is not appreciated here. His key attribute is a running joke really with our coach. He can't play above average defense, can't drive to the hoop, and doesn't do much else to the level Self prefers. And that's what really matters if a kid is going to be a big time player here. Do what Self wants. As I suggested back in the spring, he should have transferred. Maybe he transfers at the break. With that, if he sits out all of next season, he could have a full season left. If he wanted to play next season, he'd only have a semester left.

I don't know, but I see that AW3 scored 18 points the other night vs. Villanova (his third straight game with 18 points). But he couldn't cut it here. A guy in the top 50.

It is what it is.

All that being said, if I was constructing KU's starting lineup, Greene would be the starting 3. He'd be a big focus of our offensive efforts. And if teams tried to stop him, we'd scheme to score off those overplays.

I think there are a lot of folks around the game that feel the same way. But, alas, we are dealing with a one track mind at AFH.

@Texas-Hawk-10 Ok, I guess I misunderstood then. You make a point of saying "Bragg isn't ready to contribute at KU yet."

You then protest asking where did you say "Bragg isn't as talented as Lucas or Traylor." I'm sorry, did I say that you said that? Read my post above.

Your ridiculous position is that the #21 player "isn't ready to contribute at KU yet." You did see him this summer, right?

So answer the questions. Was Marcus Morris, from day one, better than Jamari Traylor ever has been? And is Bragg more talented than Marcus Morris?

What are the answers to the questions? Just curious.

In your world, obviously, you'd play Jamari Traylor over Bragg. No one is ready at Kansas. Other places, sure. Not Kansas I guess.

How about this in general -- Self failed. Whatever his strategizing, game planning, preparation, he failed. We lost to an injured and inferior MSU team. We somehow have only won one time in this Champions classic. One time.

@Texas-Hawk-10 So you really are going to sit here and argue that Lucas and Traylor are better, right now, than Bragg?

I'm wondering, have there ever been good basketball players that are thin?

And second question, is basketball, above all, a game of skill?

Third question, if Bragg is so skinny and incapable of functioning, how in the world did he get all of those rebounds in the wrestling matches we saw this summer and the WUGs?

Please, tell me again, in black and white, that Lucas and Traylor are better than Bragg, and that Bragg isn't ready to play at the D-1 level because he's skinny.

@Texas-Hawk-10 That is sheer and utter nonsense. Izzo played the #84 player who hit three, three pointers. Bragg is just flat better, all around, than Lucas or Traylor. Isn't ready to contribute? Good lord.

Was Marcus Morris, from day one, not better than Jamari Traylor ever has been? And i think, lest my my memory fails me, that Morris actually contributed from day one. Me thinks Bragg might be a touch more talented from day one than Morris.

I tend to think … just me thinking here … that if you happened to let a guy like Bragg get in the floor, he might get in the flow a bit.

@Crimsonorblue22 Well there you have it. "Pretty skinny". Funny, because Traylor isn't super skinny and he gets shoved around. Basketball, my friend, is primarily about skill. But when we look for reasons to defend Self's poor decision making, it doesn't matter what the long history of basketball has told us.

One team is clearly more talented.

However, one coach will play his talented freshman, Matt McQuaid (22 minutes). The talented freshman for MSU was just the 84th ranked player. Yet somehow, he could find the floor and contribute for a hall of fame coach.

Meanwhile, one coach leaves his talented freshman on the bench. You know, the #21 player in the country. The guy that hit two beautiful jumpers in the first half. He sits. The guy that has more skill in one hand than Lucas or Traylor combined.

That same coach, in painfully predictable fashion, plays his plodding post man (Lucas) and his low talent post man (Traylor), who combine for a whopping one made basket from the field. You know, those guys with no ranking. The guys in their 4th and 5th seasons, who have made very little (if any) improvement.

Meanwhile, that same coach, leaves a talented post player (Mickelson) on the bench. You know, the same player that displayed diverse talents set at the WUGs. The same guy that could change a few shots when folks drive to the hoop in a game like this. Three minutes.

Further, and perhaps even more disturbing, was that Kansas was not running any offense much of the second half. it was a joke. It displayed a clear lack of preparation. And a clear lack of purpose. Where was the high/low? It was non-existent. This was much of the same garbage we saw at the end of last season. Out of control driving of the ball to the basket. Devonte Graham being permitted to throw up garbage shots instead of creating, which is his supposed strength.

Of course, no plays run to set up three point shooting. We took a sum total of 11 three pointers until we missed four in the last 30 seconds. In one of the great quotes of this young season, Dick Vitale quoted Self as saying that Greene was the "best shooter" he has ever had at Kansas. And, of course, Greene remains on the bench. Nine minutes. Did he even play in the second half? No set plays run to free the best shooter ever at Kansas under Self. Nope, he sits on the bench. And Svi, you know, the 5-5 guy from three? No threes even attempted.

Here's the best stat -- Greene and Svi combined to shoot -- here we go -- ZERO THREE POINTERS. NOT ONE ATTEMPT between them from three. Izzo has to be laughing. He was at the end of the game. I saw him. That same guy who has been to 7 final fours in 17 seasons.

Once again, our coach does not have the team prepared. Once again, our coach makes painfully questionable decisions regarding playing time.

Bragg and Mickelson -- combined, individually, any way you slice it -- are better than Lucas and Traylor.

Memo to Self - Lucas and Traylor CAN'T FREAKING SCORE! IS THIS DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND? Lucas and Traylor combined for 32 minutes. One made field goal. One. Bragg -- 11 minutes. Mickelson -- 3 minutes. 32 minutes to 14 minutes.

When your team can't score, you can't play guys like Traylor and Lucas. They simply aren't offensive players. Indisputable fact. You can't have a complete offensive dead spot on the floor when the players in question bring very little else to the table.

It is flat embarrassing for Kansas -- an elite, top 5 program -- to have either player in such a prominent role. But this is what Self has chosen. Are we really in for a season where Lucas and Traylor are our 2nd and 3rd post players? Talent wins, and we are playing two unranked post players as our 2nd and 3rd post players. Ok, sorry, Traylor was #131, right? I stand corrected.

It's embarrassing. But hey, we're used to being embarrassed -- Kentucky, WSU, Stanford. It's all the players' fault. Or injuries. Or some such nonsense.

Tell me, how healthy was MSU coming into tonight's game? Hmmm? Right. We can't use that excuse.

Michigan State is a professionally run operation. It's the type of team you face in the NCAA tourney. We weren't ready for that. With a team laden with upper classmen, we weren't ready.

The question is "why"?

Jamari Traylor would kick ISIS's a**!

Like @MoonwalkMafia, I expect a rather decisive win. I think our talent level is superior to MSU. Our perimeter talent is the best in the country. Lots of elements to a game like this. But to me, we have a clearly superior team. I'm really interested to see how Perry Ellis plays.

Deleted post .. added to the "predictions" thread.

@Statmachine Exactly, and the 4th big can have a fairly sizeable role. In fact, there may be games where Mickelson might be difficult to have in a game, such as ISU. No different than Withey was sometimes. If a big is really mobile and plays out to the three point line, that can be where Traylor is more effective. Traylor can switch on the perimeter and cover a smaller guy.

@hawkmoon2020 Daniel Ortega. Communist. Different era, different time.

@Bosthawk Really, I think some folks that support Self's decision to start and play Traylor big minutes read into my comments exactly what you've said. The reason, I believe, is that they have no rational evidence to support Traylor's minutes -- at least not evidence that can be exhibited by performance or statistics. I never see that.

Your approach seeks to discredit my opinion by describing some cryptic agenda, or some irrational "feeling".

If there is anything I am not, it is a "feeling" guy. We could call Traylor "player A" for all I care. This is business -- winning a national championship. If a player helps us do that, I'd like them to play. If I see them as a roadblock to that, then I would prefer they not play (or not play as much).

So far, there is NO EVIDENCE that Traylor, as a 15-20+ mpg guy will help us to win a national title. He has too great of a role, in my opinion.

Jamari may "get it." You may "get it." Neither makes either of you worthy of playing 15-20+ minutes per game at Kansas. In 2011-12, Traylor would have been worthy. Why? Look at our next best option.

Right now, look at Mickelson and Bragg. Is there anyone that would rather have Traylor moving forward than either of these two? I've never seen that argument.

And I hope you can see how Traylor making the "best play" ever has nothing to do with his merits over the long haul, or over a season.

I do wonder if those that see that play saw him jogging lazily down the court behind plays last Friday? Was he sprinting to perhaps get the ball if the break broke down? I just ask the questions.

My beef is with Self on this. But I caution that the season is young. Traylor's role now may not be Traylor's role later. The best evidence we have on Self's view of Traylor came from the WUGs.

Traylor's baseline performance is my issue regarding his minutes. His average performance is below average. He'll have some peaks -- EKU, etc. Times where, like most players who might be cast in that role, he might win us a game. But his average performance, as evidenced by the last three seasons, is not worthy of 15 -20+ mpg at Kansas.

It was quite odd, but I didn't see Traylor take over the game against WSU and lead us to a victory. Nor did I see him save us vs. Stanford.

Here's Traylor's line vs. WSU - 17 minutes, 2/5 shooting, 5 rebounds, 4 points.

Here's Traylor's line vs. Stanford - 25 minutes, 1/8 shooting, 5 rebounds, 3 points.

Against Stanford, the excuse for our loss by some was "missing bunnies" -- the total answer was deeper than that. But Traylor was the missed bunny king that game. He could not function against the big guys of Stanford.

This is, in part, my issue with Traylor. He doesn't bring a good counterweight to Ellis. I see Mickelson as taller, longer, and more diverse near the basket. We could only speculate on this to a large degree until we saw Mickelson at the WUGs. Traylor still has very little skill around the hoop. Mickelson is a rim protector, as well. He seems a good compliment to both Ellis and Bragg. And would be better down low in the high/low offense. Further, since Traylor really only functions "high" in the high low, how can his minutes be justified against a talent like Bragg in that spot?

Self may like him. But I think Self is jeopardizing our chances at winning a national championship IF he relies upon Traylor at 15-20+ mpg. Of all of the lineup decisions right now, of all of the offense and defensive sets, of all of the substitutions I've seen in the first 3 games, this is my only issue right now.

We'll see how it plays out.

Our old friend, Andrew White, is back in action at Nebraska.

In Nebraska's first exhibition, White started and led the team with 18 points. He was 6/10 from the field, including 2/3 from three.

Yesterday, in Nebraska's season opener, White again scored 18, leading the team, going 4/6 from three point range.

Of course, if White had stayed at Kansas, he would be a senior this season.

If you want to keep up on White, here's a link ↗ to Nebraska's ESPN page. Just click on each score, and you can get to the box score.

@jaybate-1.0 A team rotating Lucas, Traylor and Mickelson will not be elite in the paint. You are correct.

Self needs to end this three plus season Traylor charade and simply give the rotation spot to Mickelson. A three man post rotation of Ellis, Mickelson, and Bragg. Share 70 minutes between the three. And give the balance to Lucas or Traylor. That can be elite. That can play to the level we need for a national championship. That can allow us to reach our ceiling. The Lucas/Traylor signings have been an utter failures to this point, in light of the post talent available on the recruiting trail, and Self's reliance on the tandem continues to hamstring us.

Traylor does not look better than last season. Look at his first three games. Much of the same. Then look at the WUG. The same (or worse). There is no trend changers. There was no injury holding him back this summer or last season, at least no more than stuff every player and team deals with.

And don't be fooled by anomalies -- In our first game last season vs. UCSB, Traylor had a season high 10 rebounds, then 7 rebounds against UK. He began the season on fire on the boards last season. We know where it ended. In a two game stretch against Utah and Lafayette, he scored 11 and 13 points, and had 7 rebounds against Lafayette. These are outliers, my friends.

The first three games, two of them exhibitions, have shown us that Traylor is the same player. He's still out of position on the boards, still not blocking out, he has no new offensive "move" -- he has the same stuff as last season.

The key here is to watch as the games accrue. If we have 16-18 minutes, 2-3 rebounds, 5 points, and no discernible game changing on defense, this is the same guy. Unfortunately, until we get 8-10 games under our belts, it will be hard to tell.

Mickelson hustles just as much as Traylor supposedly does, and plays just as hard as Traylor supposedly does, and with just as much supposed energy.

When asked why Traylor plays so much despite not rebounding and scoring, Self said "just energy." That's pretty telling. But when you see Ellis, Bragg, and Mickelson, it's obvious the energy thing is a myth -- meaning, those three guys play hard. Just as hard as Traylor.

The only way Traylor makes a net positive impact on this team is if he suddenly changes -- as three seasons, the WUG, and three games thus far have been a net negative. But we should not have to cross our collective fingers.

Mickelson offers more to this team over the course of a full season. And I don't think it's close.

And I think at this stage already, there is still no one that would take me up on my challenge -- would you rather have Traylor for the rest the season, or Bragg? No one has piped up and said Traylor.