🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@wrwlumpy @RockChalkinTexas - Let me join in. I think Oubre will get going, too. I think he can become a solid part of the rotation. I hope Self plays the kid, lets him get acclimated. Then Self will have to decide the minutes allocation. But Oubre needs to get some PT to determine his later role.

Fyi, two guys -- Kasey Hill and Chris Walker -- were high on our list. Both went to Florida. Interesting to assess their performances.

We'll smoke Florida tonight, 10-12 point win.

@JayHawkFanToo I had brought up the rules thing in another post, related to perhaps why our D struggled a bit. So I agree there. Good point. Everyone played by the same rules though -- I think it affected us a bit more because of the inherent physicality in the style Self teaches.

I attribute most of the ball hogging to Self directing him to be the man, etc., and not to Wiggins. But how many times could the guy drive and simply ignore open teammates? If Ebola is an epidemic, Wiggins failing to pass the ball was a pandemic -- it affected everybody, and everything.

@Crimsonorblue22 said:

@wrwlumpy I'm confused, switching wigs and Embiid for Svi and Cliff is an improvement? 1 and 3 draft picks? Great defender and awesome rim protector? This team as a whole is playing much better D, but IMO, Perry has stepped it up and a huge upgrade in our pt guards.

We discussed this "answer" more speculatively before the season. I felt strongly that we'd be better this season. The jury is still out on that. We don't know what the rest of the season will bring. But I feel very good about.

The fact is, we're better now than we were at this point last season. Look at how much better we look right now, vs. last season's complete discombobulation in the first semester. Self has said that you can't replace a 1st and 3rd round pick, and that our guys aren't to that level. He knows better.

My view has been the square peg, round hole thing. I isolate two major factors -

1) Finesse players with a non-finesse coach.

2) Lack of team chemistry.

1) Finesse players with a non-finesse coach.

While Wiggins was a good on ball defender, and Embiid was a good rim protector, the team dynamic was that of a finesse team (with a non-finesse coach).

We had a clear defensive liability -- our supposed leader (Tharpe). We were finesse personnel wise. Wiggins was finesse. Embiid largely finesse. Ellis 100% finesse (see some differences this season). Tharpe 100% finesse.

This "finesse" crew overwhelmed Self's system. We couldn't play good defense the way Self wanted it played. That caused the whole deal to collapse.

2) Lack of team chemistry.

Before the season, Selden made a very telling comment after the team-building sessions with the Marines. Selden said, "It really built continuity and togetherness that we didn’t have last year.

Chemistry. You can have talent, but if it isn't working together, it won't work.

There are two important elements that affected team chemistry:

a. Lack of team leader/Mistaken reliance on Tharpe.

Sometimes, as time goes by, the harshness of criticism softens. With Tharpe, I think it becomes more severe. Self continually referenced that he needed Tharpe to be the leader. It was a mistake. Tharpe was a time and time again, Tharpe failed the test. His on court performance deteriorated. Tharpe and Self were like oil and water. It seemed the more that Self barked at Tharpe, the worse it got. Most telling to me was that Tharpe went through two Novembers to remember (or forget) where he pouted, and wasn't sure if Self liked him. This was the guy that was to lead a young team, and it was a fatal flaw to team chemistry. He was pouting poison -- so much so, Self ran him off before his senior season. He had to.

b. Wiggins the ball hog

The title is inflammatory. But this has more to it than that. Self, I think, implored Wiggins to shoot at will, to drive, to be the man. In hindsight, Wiggins was not the player Self hoped he would be. He wasn't the second coming of Lebron. Wiggins wasn't ready for that at 18, Wiggins was the quintessential "volume scorer." I think that Wiggins' role, cast upon him by Self, had a significant negative impact on the team. It was premature -- Wiggins wasn't ready for that role as a freshman. ** We commented on players standing around watching Wiggins. I personally noticed multiple and constant examples of Wiggins refusing to pass to open teammates, even posted a few pictures. I don't want to be too dramatic, but Wiggins flat refusal to pass and his flat refusal to make his teammates better destroyed our chances last season. I never saw anyone dispute that -- the counter response was that Self wanted it that way. Regardless, I think it helped kill any chance at chemistry. I said it last season -- our team would have been better off without Wiggins. "Team" would have prevailed over individual.

That's why I think this version, despite not having the 1st and 3rd NBA picks, is better. Without the next Lebron James and without the ultimate rim protector -- somehow we're better. It really isn't that surprising.

And guys, here's the biggest point -- if we are better without the 1st and 3rd NBA pick, i.e., better talent -- can't we be better with non-OADs vs. OADs? Yes, we can.

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Is someone attempting to rain on our parade? Maybe. But it's a good point.

Quite simply, Ellis' inability (thus far) to score and function effectively against guys bigger dudes leads to the simple conclusion we have discussed --> play outside-in.

Do it now. Make that the focus. Make that the identity. Develop rhythm and comfort.

I believe it's much easier to adjust and be more inside-out than the other way around. Much harder to start drilling threes when the inside game goes dormant.

It's not as black and white as all that, but it is an identity.

20 threes a game, 8 made, minimum. To make 8+ you have to shoot the ball. Personally, I'd love to see 10 of 25 with this team.

Let's build the identity now.

Wow .. nice work. Diallo and Bragg? Right now, that would be pretty sweet.

So, with your reference to getting "swept" by UK, is the Recruiting Apocalypse creeping ever closer???

@JayHawkFanToo You are correct. Thanks for making one of my points meaningless, then.

@JayHawkFanToo Your hybrid comment is probably correct, but the pendulum has swung much closer to OAD. I think what I mean is that his recruiting targets seem to be more focused on that group. He's clearly in with both feet. No disputing that.

He did start Selden, Wiggins, and Embiid last season, two thought to be OADs Selden/Wiggins, and one (Embiid) who many seemed to understand how good he was -- we saw that immediately when he played, and Pitino said KU might have the first and second picks in the draft after Wiggins' commit. But I don't know if Self knew he'd be an OAD in Oct/2013 when he committed.

Further, he signed two presumed OADs for this season.

With all of that, your "hybrid" comment is probably most appropriate, but it is different than it was -- when he signed X and Selby.

@jaybate-1.0 Very enjoyable read -- you are clearly the master of the subjective and exploring a topic with precision. This is an excellent dissection of their respective approaches.

@drgnslayr - I recall the precise sequence you refer to. I think Greene had made that bone-headed turnover rotating the ball back out top, too.

By the lack of the quick hook and the lack of the in your face barking, are we seeing a kinder, gentler Bill Self?

I've seen him get on guys in the huddle. Mostly Ellis, by the way.

Timely topic. Bill showed his cards vs. MSU.

The platoon deal, in my opinion, will not work at UK. Why? Doug Gottlieb referred to the real discussion among college insiders and coaches -- players becoming unhappy with their minutes and their role. I think you'll see some discontent there. As Gottlieb said, winning does not cure everything with many high tier guys. I also think, come tourney time, the platoon vanishes for competitive reasons.

I don't think Self would ever do the platoon thing. System guy. Dogmatic. Doesn't change. Won't change. In his DNA.

Self has to decide whether he's an OAD coach, or not. I think he has decided that he is. Therefore, if Self is concerned about the OAD pipeline, the sacrificial lamb will be non-OAD Brannen Greene. Oubre overtakes Greene, whether merit, or not. The Oubre thing is major, major recruiting ammo.

If he doesn't, then we know Self is really playing based on merit. Of course, if he plays Oubre, then that may be merit too. But if not, I think we know for sure that the OAD thing isn't influencing it at all.

@drgnslayr Exactly .. patience. Oubre could be a superstar.

Yea, Embiid sat quite a bit in the first game, but was big minutes after that. He just took some time to get in the starting lineup.

Wouldn't you rather have Oubre back, than have Jaylen Brown? I would. No doubt. 100%.

The Jaylen Brown thing will push Greene out the door. Even if Oubre turns pro, I think Greene would be concerned for PT in his junior season (a year he should be starting). Bringing in a consensus top 3 pick in the 2016 draft would kind of do that, I think.

@jaybate - I am in 100% agreement on playing outside-in. In fact, Self said in an October press conference that he wants his team to develop an identity during the season that works in March (referencing why we don't press during the regular season). It would thus seem that focusing on an outside-in game now, can give us our identity -- and it is that identity that gives us our only hope of a national title this season. If Ellis could function vs. bigger post guys and score, I might think otherwise.

I would really like to see us shoot 20 threes each game (and of course, make at least 8 ). I just don't see this team having the ultimate success (NC) unless we bury a high number of threes per game.

Regarding Hunter, You get 5 years to play 4. He burned the redshirt. He has already played in his 3rd season, in this his 4th year. However, if he graduates, I believe he could transfer like Tarik Black without penalty.

@joeloveshawks - I agree .. expectations are high. But in the OAD era, that's life. Self correctly says it's not fair, but it's the process he's embraced. Even with Oubre's historic non-contribution, he's still on the lottery fringe in Chad Ford's recent mock. Crazy.

Oubre seems like the perfect 2 year player. Thing is, we don't know what he'll think if he struggles for minutes here after one season. We don't know his mindset, impatience, exasperation, etc. We can speculate. I do like that he seems to have a well grounded dad, at least from his initial comments when Oubre signed. But you never know how a dad changes his view if he thinks his son has been wronged. Add that to his role given other returning players.

The thing about Goodman's report that struck me most is the names of the other players -- most all had pretty productive careers, right?

@konkeyDong -- you said "Svi is pretty much a handful of tweaks away from being the best player in a Jayhawk uniform since Paul Pierce, and I say that without hyperbole."

That's even more optimistic than I've been over the last month. I've been on the Svi bandwagon full bore since the first exhibition -- "giddy," perhaps. The guy is the real deal.

There are going to be ups and downs for Svi, for sure. But it is cool to see an article by national writer on Svi -- the national guys must be reading kubuckets.com.

@konkeyDong I think your logic is off by just a bit .. what you ignore is the easier path for a #1 seed, at least initially. Because of that easier path, the likelihood of winning it all has to increase. If the bracket is chalk, #1 seeds get a team in the 60s, and then a team presumably no better than #32 in the first weekend.

Said another way, would your rather face Boston U and the #32 team, or #14 seed, then a #6 seed in the first weekend (as a #3 seed). The path affects success. In your example, let's say Florida in 2007 is the best team, but got a #4 seed. They then would have to likely face the #1 seed in the Sweet 16. Surely their chances of losing go up vs. being the #1 seed and playing a true #4.

Other than that, I understand what you're saying and agree. I think there is value to getting a #1 seed though, and that goes beyond just being a better team.

@konkeydong - check out the numbers. Before last season, I believe it was 18 of the last 25 tourney champs were number 1 seeds.

On Oubre, new Chad Ford mock prominently features a picture of Oubre and Alexander with a bi-line that reads, "Kelly Oubre and Cliff Alexander have both seen their NBA draft stock fall since the start of the year."

Alexander at #12, Oubre at #13.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/mock/?season=2015&version=3&source=Chad-Ford-Big-Board ↗

@DanR Back in the EJ days, I very much felt that Self should identify who he thought his best players were and play those guys to get them more experience; all so they'd be ready for March. If it ended up costing us a game or two along the way, then so be it. That is a bit inconsistent with the value of a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney, and the high percentage of champions that result.

But I still think you identify your most talented guys, and you play them. Experience and reps in real game situations, under fire, is typically the best way to shorten the learning curve. "Pressure makes diamonds", someone once said.

That said, there is a minimal level of competence with "system" that needs to be achieved so the whole thing doesn't get screwed up.

Assuming a minimal level of competence has been achieved. I'd play Oubre15-17 per game off the bench over Greene IF and only IF Self thinks he will give us a better chance to win the title in March, than Greene would. Then, if Oubre improves, he might over take Svi, and their roles might reverse a bit (I doubt that, but it could).

If Oubre completely flops in that role after a number of games, Self could reassess. Greene needs the PT too, but he has a year under his belt and could slide in easier than Oubre, if Oubre been the one sitting and then Geene flopped.

As an underlying philosophy, I'd just want to identify the best grouping of players that would give us the best title chance, and get them the most experience and reps. The more that happens, the more Self could expand the playbook and get more creative if necessary.

All that said, I would have done exactly as Self did to win vs. MSU. Play your best guys. If you're in a tourney, win it.

I posted this on another thread - more appropriate here. Oubre's lack of minutes and involvement is historic for a top recruit, per Jeff Goodman.

From Jeff Goodman today at ESPN:

Elite frosh Oubre, Pinson invisible so far

No elite recruit over the past decade has struggled to get minutes (and produce) out of the gates as much as Kansas freshman Kelly Oubre. However, he has company in fellow frosh Theo Pinson of North Carolina, who was ranked 10th in the freshman class (Oubre was 11th, but he moves up to 10th since Emmanuel Mudiay went to China).

Oubre has scored just 13 points in his first six games at Kansas and has been on the court for a total of 50 minutes thus far. Pinson has scored 16 points, but has been on the court for 94 minutes.

Here are the fewest minutes and points, along with the most minutes and points for a Top 10 recruit through his first six games. It includes the past nine seasons since the Class of 2005 was allowed to go to the NBA out of high school.

FEWEST MINUTES THROUGH FIRST SIX COLLEGE GAMES, TOP 10 RECRUITS (SINCE 2005)

1.Kelly Oubre, Kansas -- 50

2.John Henson, North Carolina -- 62

3.Tyler Zeller, North Carolina -- 72* (broke his wrist after second game)

4.Dakari Johnson, Kentucky -- 73

5.Mason Plumlee, Duke -- 81 (missed the first six games of season with a broken wrist)

6.Nolan Smith, Duke -- 92

7.Theo Pinson, North Carolina -- 94

8.Jordan Hamilton, Texas -- 99

9.Grant Jerrett, Arizona -- 99

10.James Michael McAdoo, North Carolina -- 101

FEWEST POINTS THROUGH FIRST SIX COLLEGE GAMES, TOP 10 RECRUITS (SINCE 2005)

1.Kelly Oubre, Kansas -- 13

2.Theo Pinson, North Carolina -- 16

3.John Henson, North Carolina -- 18

4.Dakari Johnson, Kentucky -- 30

5.Cameron Ridley, Texas -- 30

6.Nolan Smith, Duke -- 31

7.Mason Plumlee, Duke -- 32

8.Tyler Zeller, North Carolina -- 32*

9.Grant Jerrett, Arizona -- 33

10.Kyle Anderson, UCLA -- 34

Another item of note - Oubre's minutes are just more than 1/2 of Pinson, who is not getting much action.

Oubre is caught up in numbers here. More precisely, he's caught up in numbers ("briefly", as @jaybate said) because other players are better now. The "now" being the operative phrase.

However, I remain curious as to how he overtakes Selden or Svi. It seems that overtaking Selden is a non-starter as Self prefers experience, and has always preferred Selden. And Svi is going to improve too. Greene's minutes are Oubre's immediate target.

The question becomes whether Oubre is likely to be a better player than Greene this season? If not, then Self needs to stick with Greene in his role.

There are some pretty good players on the list above, guys that ended up playing a lot.

From Jeff Goodman today at ESPN:

Elite frosh Oubre, Pinson invisible so far

No elite recruit over the past decade has struggled to get minutes (and produce) out of the gates as much as Kansas freshman Kelly Oubre. However, he has company in fellow frosh Theo Pinson of North Carolina, who was ranked 10th in the freshman class (Oubre was 11th, but he moves up to 10th since Emmanuel Mudiay went to China).

Oubre has scored just 13 points in his first six games at Kansas and has been on the court for a total of 50 minutes thus far. Pinson has scored 16 points, but has been on the court for 94 minutes.

Here are the fewest minutes and points, along with the most minutes and points for a Top 10 recruit through his first six games. It includes the past nine seasons since the Class of 2005 was allowed to go to the NBA out of high school.

FEWEST MINUTES THROUGH FIRST SIX COLLEGE GAMES, TOP 10 RECRUITS (SINCE 2005)

1. Kelly Oubre, Kansas -- 50
2. John Henson, North Carolina -- 62
3. Tyler Zeller, North Carolina -- 72* (broke his wrist after second game)
4. Dakari Johnson, Kentucky -- 73
5. Mason Plumlee, Duke -- 81 (missed the first six games of season with a broken wrist)
6. Nolan Smith, Duke -- 92
7. Theo Pinson, North Carolina -- 94
8. Jordan Hamilton, Texas -- 99
9. Grant Jerrett, Arizona -- 99
10. James Michael McAdoo, North Carolina -- 101

FEWEST POINTS THROUGH FIRST SIX COLLEGE GAMES, TOP 10 RECRUITS (SINCE 2005)

1. Kelly Oubre, Kansas -- 13
2. Theo Pinson, North Carolina -- 16
3. John Henson, North Carolina -- 18
4. Dakari Johnson, Kentucky -- 30
5. Cameron Ridley, Texas -- 30
6. Nolan Smith, Duke -- 31
7. Mason Plumlee, Duke -- 32
8. Tyler Zeller, North Carolina -- 32*
9. Grant Jerrett, Arizona -- 33
10. Kyle Anderson, UCLA -- 34

@JayHawkFanToo Maybe. This from kusports.com -

Asked if he felt pressure, Traylor, who had an abysmal semifinal against Tennessee, said: “No, because in the time out, coach was going to sub Brannen (Greene) in for me. He was like, ‘Brannen get in.’ He was like, ‘You know what? Mari stay in. You are going to make the free throws. You are going to knock ‘em down.’ I’m happy he trusted me and I’m glad I came through,” Traylor added.

@Crimsonorblue22 Ok then, leave your best free throw shooter on the bench. Your comment doesn't make sense. The point is that you can try to get it to Greene; or, by default, you have a poor free throw shooter (Traylor) on the bench. It also makes it more difficult for them to stop the ball from going to Mason, which they did. It is common-place to take out poor free throw shooters late.

In fact, I just read that Self was getting ready to put Greene in, but changed his mind.

@Hawk8086 Actually, why not sub in Brannen Greene for Traylor? At that point, having a post defender is not important. He could always sub Traylor back in for D if needed. If Self thought they were going to foul Traylor, Traylor should not have been on the court offensively. It worked out. But I sure hope he thinks about subbing in Greene in that situation next time. Greene is dead eye from the line and a good guy to have on the floor in that situation. Better ball handler than Traylor, too.

@DCHawker I just don't us not getting back down court as an issue, based on my recollection. It didn't stand out. I'm not recalling seeing anything inordinately out of whack. But I may have overlooked it. Curious as to others' observations there.

But I am not seeing anything near a "lack of effort/desire" with this team, that you cite, in any phase of the game.

Actually, I'm seeing a lot of effort/desire. This seems to be a positive trait for this team.

@drgnslayr said, "Frank is starting to realize that he must put his body between the defender and the ball, if he hopes to get up his shot in the post area. The other thing he has to do is use the backboard right... once he gets the ball to the backboard it is goal tending if they touch it."

Great point. The other day, he went the opposite side to lay it in. That was awesome. On your topic, full speed is not always the best answer. When out front on a break, with a bigger guy trailing, a good tactic is to slow up to get the the defender on his back, and then accelerate and extend to the hoop to create some space. That's a way to use the body as you suggest. It also can allow pass options to catch up, Whatever it is, your point on using his body is a good one. It is an art. But when you have 5'11" vs. 6'9", it's hard no matter what. Draw the defense, drive to pass.

@JayHawkFanToo Agreed on Mason on the fastbreak. He'll get better. On the fast break where he left it for Oubre or Alexander .. not sure who, he really would have been better served to move the ball to the middle. He would have then had a great angle for a bounce pass to Selden who was out front.

But I don't think he "relaxed tough defensive play last season" by choice. You think he relaxed things defensively? I've never gotten that sense. I think the silly rule change/interpretation last season jacked us up to a large degree. Self was critical of it after a few weeks saying that he wasn't sure how we could play good defense the way they were calling it. I think that contributed to it.

I said this last season -- you have four of your starting five basically being finesse players (maybe 3 1/2 -- Embiid wasn't totally finesse), and a coach preaching toughness, that doesn't fit. Square peg, round hole. Much different dynamic now led by Mason out front.

Your comment on Ellis is what I was thinking too ... we're seeing more aggressiveness. He wants to score. But I get greedy. I can't wait until Ellis and Alexander get working together, and we see some good post to post passing (like Jackson and Arthur had going).

@DCHawker Glad you brought up Lucas. 8 minutes, 6 points, 3 boards. He has some nice post moves. Really, just one ... a nice drop step. But he does get rebounds and doesn't hurt us. Nice security blanket we have there when needed.

But I question your reference to a lack of "effort and intensity" on defense. All teams will get beat on penetration a few times. It's limiting those occurrences. I guess I see some pretty good effort out there.

Just a terrific game. Tough battle against a typical Izzo team. And we have to hand it to coach Self. He did a great job personnel-wise to win this game. You just saw a 6 man rotation. This was a big win. Not a time for gratuitous playing time.

1. Point Guard: As @globaljaybird mentioned, Mason was tremendous. Are we feeling better about out PG situation yet? I am. Mason's defense was outstanding. Just go back and watch the guy. It was a pleasure to see how hard he worked. One other thing ... Mason seems in amazing shape. Is he ever tired? And Graham seems like an excellent back up.

2. Selden: On the defensive theme, did you see him shut Valentine's ass out in the second half? Super effort. Always in his face. I saw Svi on him, too. Both did a nice job. I mentioned this a while back ... but Selden's shot was changed in the off season. They stopped him from pulling it back over his head, now more out front; better form. So I wouldn't panic on his shot right now. Even so, the 0-10 was ugly. Just couldn't finish either. We're 5-1 and Selden is not playing near his potential. It will get much better.

3. Traylor/Alexander: Self sat Alexander after his third foul with 5+ minutes left. I wondered why he would sit him with just three fouls. I still don't get it. Traylor did hit the two clutch free throws, but he isn't near the player Cliff is. Cliff was a force on defense. But we won. Coach Self made the right call because it led to a win. I just don't understand it at all.

4. Svi/Greene/Oubre: Love this saga. I sensed some not so pleasant body language from Greene on the bench. Sitting back, looking disinterested when everyone else was sitting up. It was when Oubre was in. Greene had a bad turnover and didn't do much. But it was more than Oubre did. I just shake my head at how good Svi is at his age. Makes some mistakes. Works his tail off on defense. 3 of 6 from three is more like it. His ability to score will just keep arcing upward.

5. Team Defense: Just outstanding. I wish there was something to isolate as something to be critical about. When I say "team defense", that's what I mean. It was a team effort. How nice is it when opposing PGs don't get easy penetration. That is perhaps the most critical difference from last season. We can always get better, but what a contrast to last season. Cliff makes guys think twice before driving. And I have to hand it to Ellis. There were two times on D when I actually said, "Way to go Perry." One where he forced Dawson across the lane.

6. Only Criticism (kind of): My only criticism was when we were up in the second half, we had some pretty bad possessions. Some bad shots when we could have easily gotten the lead to double digits. But what am I thinking? Who cares? This was a terrific win, great team basketball. Last season at this time I was lamenting/whining about Self not having the team prepared. And I was right. This season, I would say that Self has this team impeccably prepared. And I'm right again. We handled the press this weekend, we destroyed a zone defense, we played a tough it out game against a tough team, and we executed at all crucial times.

Great weekend.

@Crimsonorblue22 Agreed, Svi needs to hit his 3s.

Also, remember, we may "use" 10 guys. Self "used" 10 in 2009-10 for over 10 mpg. But we clearly didn't have a 10 man rotation. We didn't have a 9 man rotation. He'd give Releford some minutes in the first half, then a nibble in the second. He added minutes in mop up to get to 10. Much the same way with Little. He'd basically get a some here and there, and when fouls were an issue to get to 13 per game. EJ would flat sit for long stretches. No "rotation" there.

Do you see that differently; or when you say "use", do you mean just "use" in terms of "play, and not a rotation of 10?

@icthawkfan316 I agree with you completely. Every year (except 2011-12) we're deep. We're going to expand the rotation. 2009-10 (TRob, EJ), then 2010-11 (Releford, EJ), 2012-13 (White and Adams), and last season. It never happens.

I'd say 2010-11 is the best comparison. We had 10 guys average over 10 mpg during the season. But even that was misleading. Many of Releford's minutes were token minutes. That left nine. Mario Little didn't really play many meaningful minutes. EJ was shut out of many, many important situations. Four of those guys (Little, Releford, EJ, and Selby) got ditched in many key games and situations.

The idea on a rotation is that they are regular and consistent contributors. Self has never done that.

Look at the boxscore for the Big 12 title game. EJ had played admirably for TT during his suspension, then got just a handful of minutes. Selby had averaged bigger minutes, then hardly anything. Look at the box score for our first round NCAA game vs. the vaunted Boston Terriers. 7 guys in double figures on a team where 10 guys averaged double figures.

The point is that even with an incredibly deep team, and even with the #1 recruit on the bench, Self will revert to prior form. He'll choose his most trusted guys, and go with them when it counts.

Heck, look at it right now. He's already done that this season in the second half of games.

@JayHawkFanToo Really, though, the all star games don't mean much when translating to a coach Self coached team. But I saw the same thing you did. What we saw was not (Self) team basketball. What Oubre showed in those all star games may translate better to a non system coach, or to a coach that is not so demanding or precise in his requirements. I think that explains a bit why many other top 15 or so guys are starting every game, and playing big minutes. I think part of the answer too is that we have other options and thus he doesn't get on the job training.

I will be surprised if Oubre starts this season based on merit vs. another national TV game against a team we're competing with for recruits. This for one main reason -- Svi.

I just struggle to see how he overtakes Svi. Is there anything that Oubre, even if you look at his potential, does better than Svi? All I can identify is perhaps slashing to the hoop. The game changer is that Svi is much, much better defensively than we could ever have imagined. He is a tremendous passer and ball mover. Svi won't stagnate, either. Meaning, Oubre may start grasping more, but Svi will too. If Svi starts hitting the three, he will be the best all around player on this team.

Also, don't forget that Svi is projected to go #4 in the 2016 NBA draft. He has as much or more "potential" than Oubre, who was projected top 10. (for whatever it's worth, Oubre, has completely dropped out of the draft projection at nbadraft.net -- Cliff is down to #15 by the way).

I think we just assume Oubre is going to magically get better, and adapt, and learn, and assimilate. Compare to the exact same discussion many of us had about Josh Selby. It is not a given. And I think the risk of non-assimilation is greater on a coach Self coached team.

Actually, I think Oubre's chances to start next season hinge totally on two things -- whether Selden and Svi return. If they both come back, I think both will start next season at the 2/3.

Think of it this way. If you could draft a team for next season from current KU players, who would be your first choice right now?

I'd pick Svi.

@ParisHawk Ah yes, the OAD merry-go-round. Tyler Dorsey is ranked #19 by Rivals and Brandon Ingram at #18 would not be likely OADs. Jaylen Brown and Malik Newman are considered likely OADs. That's it on the perimeter. Last I heard, we're not leaders on any of them. @konkeyDong's input would be helpful here. I had heard Ingram was either KU or UK, but then I heard UNC was more likely. Many think Dorsey is leaning to California. But we're squarely in with him.

They're the only perimeter guys we're now recruiting. Ingram is more of three. Dorsey a two that wants to be a PG. So perhaps perfect situation is that one leaves (not Mason or Graham as we need the PGs), and we sign Dorsey as our sixth.

What does become tough, though, is getting caught -- say we keep 5 and get none of the perimeter guys this season. Perhaps we add an unranked scrub as our 6th guy. Then the next season we lose three of them. That's where the merry-go-round inflicts some pain.

@BeddieKU23 You seem to avoid the word "transfer." Let say this -- like, I'd bet a large some of money on it -- all six won't be back. You mention that "in theory" we could return all six. That's not theory, that's crazy talk, my man.

Let's try one example. Say that Oubre gets more minutes, hits some threes, and plays good defense heading into February. He squeezes Greene's minutes. Self shows a preference for Oubre over Greene. Svi stays at 20 mpg. Even now, the 6th guy is getting 4-5 minutes (Oubre). Say Greene is odd man out this season and Oubre returns for his sophomore year. All others are back. Why would Greene even consider returning? Or let's assume that Greene remains ahead of Oubre but is the 5th perimeter guy; and Oubre leaves, but Self gets a commit from Jaylen Brown.

Example #2. Mason's play regresses. Graham takes over in late January. Mason still gets 12 or so mpg, but Graham is clearly the man. Regardless of who comes back, wouldn't Mason consider transferring given that a player one class behind him is preferred the starter? Meaning his career would be as a back up. Or flip it around. What if Mason is a stud and Graham is getting 12 per game? Will he want to stay at a spot where his only season to start might be his senior season?

Example #3. Oubre rides the bench all season. His draft stock slips. Everyone is back. It becomes clear that Oubre does not fit with what Self wants to do. Oubre needs to reestablish himself to get drafted. An Oubre transfer would then make sense.

One will go. Transfer or turning pro. Book it.

Now, @icthawkfan316, the question becomes will there be two? I don't think that there is enough to go around for 5 guys unless Self changes his normal philosophy. Usually, that 5th spot is limited minutes. You are exactly right. He could keep 5 happy, but he'd have to eliminate the gratuitous 6th man minutes all together --> Ex. Mason 30, Selden 30, Svi 22, Greene 20, Graham 18. But that would require a major change in how Self does things. What will make that hard is what we saw yesterday (and throughout his tenure). In crunch time, he'll go with who he feels most comfortable with. He chose Greene over Svi. That means four guys at most. Fifth guy with lower minutes. We think he could do more, but when the game's on the line, he plays the guys he thinks will win the game.

I agree, as well, that I'd be fine if we could keep 5 of the 6 and get no new recruits. Actually, that is my major preference. I particularly don't want to lose guys because we get the next OAD (Brown, for example). Let's just get Bragg and another big.

Heading into next season, this group of perimeter players will be the best in the country. I wouldn't trade this group for any other group.

I will say that there is no way that we get back all of our perimeter players for next season. Six deserving players is one too many.

Someone will have to go.

I'll go a step further - I think two will end up going after this season. All six are of the skill level that deserves major minutes, and not scraps. It has to happen.

In the meantime, we can enjoy perhaps the deepest group of perimeter players KU has ever had.

One thing that we'll have to deal with is MSU's three point shooting. As a team, they are over 42%. They shoot appx. 22.5 per game, which is nearly 7 more three pointers per game than we shoot per game (15.7).

But the other thing that is interesting in this matchup is that MSU is a smallish team. Both of their four men (Dawson and Clark) are 6'6". Costello is 6'9" and starts, about 20 mpg; Costello (6'9" ) and Wollenman (6'7" ) off the bench at about 15 mpg and 8 mpg. But the 6'9" guys aren't on the court together. Dawson didn't start last game. Don't know why. But he's their best post player.

Seems like another game where Ellis could come up big.

@globaljaybird I know we exchanged observations on Self's lack of the quick hook before the game, and Self stayed true to form. This is really a terrific, and refreshing, development. Greene threw up a bad NBA range three right as he got in the game. Self didn't move. It's just a different, more positive dynamic. I really hope it keeps up.

A few other observations:

1. Post Play: Cliff is ready to start. Self may stick with Lucas at least for tomorrow. Cliff's skills, hopefully getting 25 mpg, will make a positive impact. We all so how poorly Jamari played. It's been that way all season -- bobbles, bad passes, just out of sync. Good thing is that Lucas has filled the void. Lucas' rebounds per minute played have to be pretty darn good. Ellis had a nice offensive effort. Alexander's presence more often will only help.

2. Mason: He obviously played better. @icthawkfan316 noted the fastbreak where he had two trailers to leave it for -- but the line was sweet. 50% three point shooting on the season so far, too.

3. Greene: Self went with Greene in crunch time. Great sign for Greene. Played confidently. One time on D where he got burned and got a foul. But having that type of shooter in the line up helps open the floor. Greene's defender really extended to him most of the time.

4. Svi: When Self references Oubre being young, or learning, or all of that -- the real young guy is Svi. But he continues to play well. We will just continue to see him get more confident and do more offensively, like the drive to the hoop. There was a great sequence at the 17:50 mark where his terrific defense on the wing led directly to a turnover. Watching him play defense is really enjoyable. Regardless, the threes need to start falling. I think it's just a matter of time.

5. Three Point Shooting: Mason looks solid. Graham fine. Greene outstanding. Ellis an added dimension. And if Svi gets it going, look out. Selden started the season 1-8, but now has had two straight good shooting games from three. Self wants an identity. I like this.

6. Oubre: Back when EJ and Releford were underclassmen, I was irritated with Self's refusal to play those two through their mistakes. My rationale was that their upside was better than the guys Self was playing -- that is, by March, the product would be better with EJ and Releford, and thus our chances at a national title would be improved; if Self would just let them learn, make mistakes, and get critical in-game experience. Is there any similarity here? I guess that I don't think so. How much more talented is Oubre than Greene and Svi? I don't see it. Personally, I think Svi's flat more talented; and Greene's our three point sniper. Not sure Oubre can match that critical skill. Self says that our best guys aren't playing -- I don't like that comment. It is a touch demeaning to the guys on the court for my taste. Who is he referring to? Cliff vs. Traylor? Ok, I get it. But with Oubre vs. Svi and Greene, I wonder if it's just a convenient fiction. Self's in a tough spot. If we had two or three commits in the bag, it wouldn't matter. It appears Selby-esque.

7. Atlantis: I hope we never play there again. Just difficult to watch on TV. Horrible last season. Watching OU-Wisconsin now. Blue back lighting during game play, weird low ceiling, and weird spotlights during breaks. Yuck.

8. This season vs. last season: We have talked about this team possibly being better. How do we lose a starting point guard and the first and third picks in the draft, and be better? Time will tell, of course, but we look much better. More active, smoother on offense, better defensively. We nit-pik Mason -- he deserved it after UK. But goodness, his ball handling is the best I've seen in years and he works his ass off on defense. Graham and Mason are both better than Tharpe in literally all aspects (giving Tharpe credit for his shooting). And no pouting from either of them. This time in both of the last two seasons, Tharpe was questioning his role, Self had to bench him, and we had to hear about his whining. That's gone, thankfully, But it's the defense that stands out to me by Mason and Graham on the court. Also, notice how the pressure is a non factor? Mason controls it. And we are better without Wiggins, and everything Wiggins brought. Good defender, but soft as a marshmallow. Took too many bad shots. Negatively affected chemistry solely because of his unearned superstar status. Here's a question -- would you add Wiggins from last season to this team, right now? No way. Not a chance. Now, I'd take Embiid of course. But I wouldn't mess this up with Wiggins.

@drgnslayr - Don't you think the killer instinct thing was at least partially on display by the nice finish? I saw that as extremely positive. Last season, it would have been a one possession game inside the last minute. On Svi, is there a better guy at getting the ball into the high or low post than Svi, and doing it crisply? He seems to pop it in really well. Energy and momentum from defense -- you are exactly right. Nice to see.

@wrwlumpy Let's try this, if we can hit the threes like yesterday and get the ball in good spots for Ellis and Cliff inside, we'll be fine for the rest of the season.

Anyone notice that Self isn't giving the quick hook for missed threes? That seems a big change in my opinion.

@KJD Great choice in looking at those 7 minutes. Notice how three point shooting is what propelled us? Coach Dan Hurley, who is the single whiniest coach I have seen since Billy Tubbs, admitted to game planning (imagine that), saying before the game that they had a game plan to stay in the game. Not surprisingly, it was to make us shoot from the perimeter -- expect more of that. The fact is, we need to hit three pointers. I just hope Self can see that this phase of the game is crucial for this team. Surely Tennessee will have a similar approach.

But the 7 minutes highlighted above -- the time the game changed -- was base on three point field goals.

Also, notice Oubre's 4 minutes? The evidence continues to demonstrate that the start vs. UK was a pure sham.

One other item -- Svi needs to hit some shots. Bottom line. He does everything else well. But the ball needs to go in the hoop. That will come. We've seen guys struggle with that, most famously Ellis, who couldn't get a break for much of his freshman season.

Finally, while I agree with @KUSTEVE that Mason was better, I also agree with @icthawkfan316 that Mason is shooting too much. Maybe more this, as Self had mentioned, drive to pass. That's what I want from Mason. And the fastbreak where Mason got his shot blocked, I almost choked on my pumpkin pie. I just don't get it. Dish it. Somehow, someway, Self has to get him to value the assist more than the points. He needs to gain more satisfaction from 10 assists than 14 points (I feel like I'm cutting and pasting from my TT posts from years ago).

I am a Mason fan, but that mindset troubles me. Graham may me the better starter, with Mason a good guy off the bench -- if Mason can't adjust his mindset. And we can't let an 18 point game change our view on that, either. One big positive is that Mason is drilling the three. Graham looks good from three as well.

Look at how Graham scores. He forced one play vs. UK, but that's all I can recall including exhibition games and Late Night.

@Hawk8086 But what happens if Greene's performance demands minutes? More precisely, doesn't Greene's unique skill set on this team demand time right now anyway (I mean, in a non-Bill Self type world)?

@KUSTEVE I am particularly worried about Greene. It just seems that he's the most likely to suffer if/when Oubre's minutes go up. I could also see Self playing the Graham/Mason second fiddle, less --> 120 perimeter minutes, Mason 32, Selden 28, Svi 24, Oubre 20, Graham 18.

That said, Greene can answer. Keep shooting. He's at 50% now. He clearly can achieve greater than 40%.

You've identified the dilemma -- in a year when all of our eggs are in the Top 15 basket, when we have no commits, and when we have a Top 15 guy who is struggling to this point, does Self play Oubre more so that he has better cache with the 2015 recruiting class?

@KJD Now that's an argument that's tough to refute. I particularly enjoyed your Pierce vs. Hinrich discussion. Kirk was a shut-down defender -- the block vs. AZ in Anaheim to get us to the 2003 Final Four was tremendous. One of my favorite Hinrich memories.

The painful losses in the tournament are many, but the unsung one is clearly that 2002 team. I view it much like the 2011 VCU loss -- where the title was there on a silver platter. Indiana in the title game would have been a walk in the park.

@REHawk I guess if I had to bet either way, yea, I would agree there.

But part of me also remembers Josh Selby competing for time with Reed and Brady. And part of me sees Brannen Greene with a year under his belt as our best shooter. And part of me sees Svi as the best all around player on the team. And part of me hears Self say even yesterday that we're better with Mason and Graham on the court at point. And part of me sees Selden as the anointed one. And part of me knows Self likes a tight rotation. And part of me can't imagine more than 5 perimeter guys in the rotation.

With that, the only paths I see for Oubre are 1) Self benches either Mason or Graham, or 2) Self benches Greene.

Your thoughts?

@ZIG Why is it that other teams seem to have those "basic principles" drilled into their top 15 guys? Oubre is way below everyone else in minutes. I never heard one hint from any "expert" that he was raw, or anything like that. He sounded like a plug-in starter from all reports. It's just puzzling to me.

That said, from what I've seen, he seems lost out there many times.

@REHawk Here's my speculation -- his brain is holding him back. "Smarts" may not be his forte. Everyone knows he has talents. That would make perfect sense.

Svi came to campus late, didn't have the summer stuff, with English as his second language, and he clearly has figured out the mental parts of Self's system. I don't think it's a stretch to simply lay it on Oubre's brainpower right now. Heck, it could just be difficulty with certain aspects. Seems to be a plausible explanation.

But that all circles back to the "system" thing. The other top 15 guys seem to be "smart" enough for their systems early on, and I'm betting there aren't any brain surgeons among them. And despite the claim of complexities in our system, it can't be that complicated -- it's just basketball.

It just seems to be one of those things we may never be able to answer.

@Crimsonorblue22 Actually, you're right. He did play four seasons and did not turn pro early.

Some useless info before we get into this terrific three game stretch this weekend. Just for comparison sake, here are the minutes and games started for the top 15 recruits:

1. Okafer - Duke: 28.2 minutes, started all games.

2. Turner - Texas: 20 minutes, no starts.

3. Alexander - KU: 14.7 minutes, no starts.

4. Jones - Duke: 26.4 minutes, started all games.

5. Mudiay - China.

6. Lyles - UK: 17.8 minutes, no starts.

7. Johnson - Arizona: 26 minutes, started all games.

8. Jackson - UNC: 24.3 minutes, started all games.

9. Towns- UK: 18.3 minutes, started all games.

10. Pinson - UNC: 14.7 minutes, started one game.

11. Oubre - KU: 10.7 minutes, started one game.

12. Looney - UCLA: 31 minutes, started all games.

13. Russell - Ohio St.: 27.3 minutes, started all games.

14. Whitehead - Georgetown: 26.3 minutes, started all games.

15. Winslow - Duke: 28 minutes, started all games.

I also looked at Vaughn a UNLV and Blackmon at Indiana, both guys we were interested in. Both have started all five games, both averaging over 30 minutes per game.

Odd how our two top 15 guys just happen to be averaging the lowest number of minutes of all of those players. Great coaches, with top programs, play their top guys. I don't know the answer this season.

Self played Wiggins from the get go last season, but he was the chosen one. He played X. Embiid took over quickly. Heck, Svi is playing a lot. I bet Cliff starts very soon. Oubre is the outlier. It will be interesting to see if the next three games changes that dynamic.

@JayHawkFanToo You have missed the nuance of sarcasm. Saying, "Amazing, isn't it" is not intended to convey that it was actually amazing. It was the opposite -- to convey that it was actually not amazing.

@RockChalkinTexas I think you dreamed that ... Wilbekin turned pro after his junior season and then didn't get drafted.

Mickelson is stiff because Hudy's been working him out too much .... hmmm.

I would really like to know from Self what the issue is with Mickelson. It has to be something pretty big.

@RockChalkinTexas Amazing, isn't it. Tharpe didn't leave because of his daughter. It was just a blatant lie. But we knew that, didn't we?

@JayHawkFanToo "Mindset" -- exactly right. This is what will determine Mason's fate. Because he ain't gonna score like high school.

@jayhawk-007 -- You certainly see the glass half full.

@Hawk8086 -- I had a twitter exchange with Rustin Dodd. He thought the tutoring reference he thought Self was referring to guys that had started before, thus not Cliff. Sounds like maybe Traylor as you suggest.

@REHawk - "Pretty much the same way I see Oubre at the moment. He's like that 3rd ACE lurking near the top of the stack in a five-card poker game." ---- great analogy.

@Statmachine - So who should start then? I have had this weird, "why is Selden starting" thing in the back of my mind for a while. He's the anointed one. I know, silly thought. If Oubre ends up being the stud, and ball handling is the commodity we all really know it is (as @joeloveshawks noted), then could our best perimeter lineup actually be Mason or Graham, paired with Svi and Oubre? Try this -- is Svi better right now than Selden? Interesting to consider.

@ParisHawk -- Thanks, much appreciated. It is a great time of the year. Three games in four days coming up. Doesn't get much better than that. I'll be locked down on Thanksgiving day, away from a computer post-game ... don't quite know how I'll handle that.

@JayhawkFanToo - I realize you don't "believe it." Maybe you don't want to believe it? Regardless, that's your call. But I'm not saying it's fact. I fully believe that this is speculation, and you might be right. I just think the evidence stacks up pretty well.

Just my opinion here after watching the game, combined with the other games -- Oubre simply looks lost out there. Times when he's turning around, like he's not sure what to do. Or awkwardly hesitating. Times on defense where he seems frozen, and one when a guy from the weak side was driving and he just stood outside the far block. To anyone watching Oubre, it seems clear that he is behind Greene and Svi, isn't it? Self has talked about others needing to "gain strength" -- that guy needs it as much as anyone.

You say that Oubre was our "best player" vs. UK. Can't argue with that. I really like his drive to the hoop. So then, with that, why did Self then not play him much? 13 minutes? Only 8th in minutes that game on the team. You have to admit that the evidence stacks up pretty solidly that the UK deal was a "show" start. Did you see the pregame video

Self had referred to Alexander before related to not doing things correctly of the court, by name. This reference was vague, and could have been anyone not in the starting lineup. But obviously sounds like either Cliff or Oubre. Never know, it could have been Traylor. He had that issue at one point (going to class or something).

All that said, Oubre is apparently extremely talented. We could see him more this weekend. If Self thinks he's the best guy, I hope Self starts him and plays him more than the 13 minutes vs. UK, and the 15 minutes last night.

But right now, just the eye test here, I would say that Svi is the better all around player. Does more, and obviously knows more. Greene's shooting is desperately needed on this team. It's nice to have Oubre's talent curve, waiting to explode upward.