Meanwhile, KU runs a contests to pick which uniform they will wear .. ugh.
HighEliteMajor
5416 posts
Headline nausea -- it's why I avoid real news headlines. It wears me out. At least the sports headlines provide a chuckle here and there. Funny you point out Pearl. Must be one hell of a recruiter. Signs guys the minute his "show cause" has expired.
But this was not my expected reading this morning. I am quite sure that this is the only basketball site that could provoke the following:
"Where is my flipping old black Borsalino Beret? The one I wear like a yarmulka full of yeast--without a jaunty green beret style tug to one side--the one I wear and look mug shot style into my Dick Avedon close up and show all of my pores and black heads in one black and white shot against some paint peeling off a bad cafe in Paris."
I'm still thinking on that one ...
In reading Medcalf's thoughts, this stuck out to me: "In recent seasons, Tyshawn Taylor, Elijah Johnson and Tharpe all played the position for the Jayhawks. But their sometimes erratic efforts and sloppiness were a problem. They weren’t fits for Self’s system."
Maybe I'm crazy, but who here thinks that coach Self didn't think that TT was a fit? I think coach Self absolutely loved TT. Until January 1, 2012, I thought Self was crazy. But then the 2nd half of 2012 happened. Then it all made sense. That was the TT that Self knew was there. Self loved what he thought TT could be, as much as he loved what TT became in that last half of his senior season. Above all, TT was a "fit" because of defense. Not perfect, but the TT of the second half of 2012 was clearly a "fit."
But Medcalf also makes a correct statement, at least in the eyes of many KU fans. Medcalf said "Well, they’ll eventually figure it out. Unless they don’t. If that happens, Kansas might be left behind come March."
Isn't this exactly what many think? That last March, our fate was doomed due to Tharpe and poor point guard play.
That will not happen this season -- poor point guard play dooming our chances.
What I worry most about now is post defense. My second worry is that Self will not permit our offensive strengths to shine through, namely three point shooting.
If we have competent post defense and our shooters are given the latitude to shoot the ball, this team has a national championship level ceiling.
@drgnslayr Thanks .. really appreciate your post. Nice of you to say. As I'd mentioned, my opinion is continually getting shaped -- in large part by your posts, and the others here as well. You're right. All is good when talking Jayhawks. When Sept. 1 gets here, we can sniff the opening tip.
@KansasComet Funny you mention the 90s. In 1997, KU lost to AZ, Chiefs lost to Denver. I swore that would never become that deeply invested in my teams again. It lasted for while. My wife had to talk me off a bridge after the 2002 Maryland loss ... And yes, I enjoy the back and forth. I'm kind of interested in your CF/Mason vs. Tharpe take there. Care to expand on that?
@DoubleDD For what it's worth, I had mentioned that we're spoiled with conference titles. Meaning winning them makes them seem less worthy. Personally, I admit to that. Winning them is better than losing them. But also remember that perhaps the focus on the conference title can distract or limit the prep for the NCAA tourney. Here's an example - Self just admitted that he should have played Mason more at the point last season. Do you think he stuck with Tharpe because he thought Tharpe gave us the best chance to win immediately? And that playing Mason could have caused greater risk of a loss? See, that has been my point with Self for years. He sticks with what is comfortable to win the current game, and does not perhaps play the guys that need to develop to reach a higher peak of team performance. Self clearly saw Tharpe imploding, but trotted him out there against Stanford. Thus, focusing on the conference -- win no matter what -- could (and I think has) impact(ed) us later. Of course, the competing interest of getting a #1 seed, which is a better path to the NCAA title is predicated on winning. Clearly not a black and white issue.
@KUinLA -- no comment.
@KansasComet There we go .. that's the good stuff.
Look, I think one can be critical, challenge Self's thought process, critique his decisions and strategy, and analyze his lineups. I think one can express displeasure with situations, games, and other team matters. I And that doesn't make one less of a fan. Actually, I'd suggest that it's passion.
When I post here, one thing I enjoy most is the different thought processes and how the posts here challenge everything. The discussion and debate shape my opinions. And my opinions change all the time based on what I read, watch, and observe. Part of getting to perhaps the "right" approach or to the "answer" is the debate.
No disrespect intended, but I was interested in getting beyond many of your "everything about KU is great" posts. You are obviously very passionate, and I admire your loyalty. However, I'm interested in what you're critical of.
I'd love to hear more.
@KansasComet You do realize that the discussion point is the resume, not taking UConn over KU. It's what they have done, not who they are. It never seems like your responses address that. In fact, they ignore it.
Simply because you might think another team's resume is better than your own team's resume is not heresy.
So UNI over KU was not a "major upset"? But KU over Arkansas was an "upset." UNI wasn't mis-seeded. They were a 9, that's a good seed. And of course they lost to a 5 seed in their next game by 7 points. It was a huge upset. We were a #1 seed with the coveted conference title under out belt, 30 plus wins.
I'm curious, does anything upset you? Does it upset you when coach Self obviously fails to make a needed adjustment in a tourney game -- with our season riding on it? And our season is over? Or is it all just "ok" because it's KU? I am interested.
And if you are critical, does that mean you are not a "true fan"? What does being "with their team in ... bad times" mean?
Try Mason, Selden, Oubre, Greene, and Traylor ... "greasy speed" as Mickey told Rocky. The thoughts noted by @justanotherfan make perfect sense. Speed, trap, pressure, fast break, play fast.
But we've been here before. Self has speculated on all sorts of things. The key to his speculation on a small lineup ... "... I just don't know if we could guard anybody."
That's the rub. That's the doubt in his mind. That's why he'll never commit to small lineups as a staple. He can't stomach it. He's gone small for short bursts here and there. But that's it . He wants bigs. He plays through bigs. Heck, he even mentioned that he could post up guards more. Begging the question of why you can't post up guards with bigs on the floor ... but anyway.
Heck, he goes small mostly as a reaction to other teams, and our inability to guard their small lineups.
I don't want to be a negator, but I won't hold my breath. Self talks a big game, and speculates. After AW3 lit up Belmont as a stretch four, lots of talk. Never saw it again. We've been here before. Self never changes.
@KansasComet Yes, yes .. if KU went 0-30, and UConn went 40-0 and won the national title, you'd take KU's record, and cheering for KU would be all that mattered. You are just a fan.
@Crimsonorblue22 Who is Jonas and what are you talking about? I may have missed something there.
But even in the last five years, UConn has two final fours and two national titles. We have one final four, no titles. KU has 156 total wins, UConn 121. A pretty big difference. UConn no conference titles, KU five. No surprise, but I'd take UConn's resume over the last five years as well.
Interesting how this dynamic changes if we win the National Title in 2011 as we should have. UConn doesn't have four, they have three. We have two in that time period. A different conversation.
@JayHawkFanToo Your "fancier title at work" vs. "a nice raise" example is exactly on point.
"Fancier title at work" = the window dressing. Style over substance. The stuff that makes you feel good and allows you to rationalize to others why you do what you do. The stuff other than a national title.
"Nice raise" = the meat and potatoes. The bottom-line. The actual substance. The national title.
The national title speaks for itself. You point to the ring, you say "kiss the ring". While others have to find arguments to convince everyone how great they are, you sit quietly knowing that you need not prove anything.
Ok, I looked at the numbers – UConn vs. KU from 1999-2014. That has been the discussion. The issue is, would you take UConn’s men’s basketball accomplishments highlighted by 4 national titles, over KU’s men’s basketball accomplishments, highlighted by 1 national title and 12 conference titles over that 16 season period of time.
UConn:
Total Wins: 433 -- 27.06 per year
Conference Titles: 5
Conference Tourney Titles: 4
NCAA Appearances: 12
Elite Eights: 7
Final Fours: 5
National Titles: 4
Kansas:
Total Wins: 459 -- 28.68 per year
Conference Titles: 12
Conference Tourney Titles: 7
NCAA Appearances: 16
Elite Eights: 6
Final Fours: 4
National Titles: 1
So, for those that vote "KU", please remember that your vaunted conference titles come against a conference that was inferior to UConn's conference (Big East). I know that pains some, but do you really think we would have won even half our league titles if UConn, Syracuse, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, and Pittsburgh would been in our conference during that period of time? Heck, UConn won 5 conference titles in this stretch and 4 conference tournaments with that competition.
The conference titles are inflated due to our competition. I saw the comment about Gonzaga's titles vs. "mid-majors." Right, is it too hard to take that thought one step further? There might be D-1 teams that just aren't as good as other D-1 teams, right?
But really, even without considering if conference titles were a touch diluted, look at the numbers.
Would you trade KU's resume for UConn's resume? Ok, you miss the tourney a few times and get an extra win and a half per season.. But you get more Elite Eights, more Final Fours, and more National Titles with UConn's resume. Heck, what is the value of have 1.62 more wins per season. Or what is the value of making the tourney and losing early to Bucknell, Bradley, UNI, vs. not making it at all (coupled with the astronomical success that accompanied it).
This isn't about whether you love KU. The discussion is whether you would rather have what UConn has done in the past 16 seasons, or what KU has done in that same time period.
It is a decisive knockout in favor of UConn's resume.
Please, rationalize for me. Tell how KU's resume is better. The sky is not green, and grass is not orange.
@JayHawkFanToo You know, I recognized the difference in opinion .. that's my reference to what folks "value." Kind of the point of my post, which you ignore. I'm not saying my opinion is the gospel. I'm just saying that I don't understand, nor comprehend, anyone with a competitive bone in their bodies, saying that national titles are not the most important criteria in judging a basketball program.
It's odd .. you say the Honda civic example makes no sense. Then you prove my point by acknowledging that your 2001 BMW may not "outperform" and may not be "better" than a comparable 2015 car. Your example demonstrates what I've suggested. Further, you misuse the example. It's not a "comparable" 2015 car I'm comparing it to. Would I rather have a 1968 Camaro than a 2014 Camaro? Sure, I would. But I mentioned a 2002 beater (not a collector's car, or a BMW) to illustrate the point on rationality.
So you're saying folks don't rationalize their existence or circumstance? We hear MU fans do it all the the time, don't we? Explaining why final fours don't matter, or why winning the league conference tournament is better than anything KU has done. And you can't recognize that, perhaps .. just perhaps .. not winning national titles leads KU fans to rationalize that the alleged value of conference titles somehow trumps national titles?
Again, I'm curious, can you cite to me any "rankings" that consider UConn's 4th national title in the last 15-20 years? I'd like to see the logic of the "rankings."
@JayHawkFanToo Many teams win national titles without conference titles.
You cite publications ranking programs. Yippee. There is no way in holy he** that any program is greater than UConn over the last 15 seasons. What program wouldn't trade places with them during that span? Four national titles.
Apparently, you wouldn't. I like pizza. I can't help folks that don't. And I don't understand how someone doesn't like pizza.
Maybe this national title thing is like the guy that swears that he likes his 2002 Honda Civic, and would never want a new car. It's a rationalization. He says he doesn't want the new car because he can't afford it. Or maybe he doesn't want the new car because his value system is just different.
Here, I just can't even comprehend it, to be honest. But it is just that -- either folks are rationalizing to make themselves feel better, or their value system is just different.
I'm interested to see one "publication" that ranks programs over the last 15 or 20 years that has KU ahead of UConn after their 4th title.
In those points rankings by publications, I give everything minimal points and a national title 100 points. Can't beat it even adding up everything else.
You can test yourself -- Let's assume KU goes 39-0 in 2012, 2013, and 2014, yet loses in the title game every season. In 2012, TRob is the national POY; in 2013, Withey is the national POY; and in 2014, Wiggins is the national POY. We win all three conference titles. Self is coach of the year every year.
You basically have the best possible result every season, all the glory and press, except the national title.
Would you rather have those three seasons, or say average UConn seasons in 2012 and 2013 and in 2014, KU wins the title.
If you deny that you'd take the title, it's either a big rationalization, or it's simply what you place value on.
@KansasComet -- he's clearly in the latter category. His value system is quite clear. All things KU make him happy and let him enjoy life. No rationalizing there. I admire that. I don't understand it, but I admire it.
But wait .. let's say KU goes 8-22, 10-20, and then in 2014 KU goes 12-18, wins the league tournament, and makes a miraculous run for the title.
Ok, you got me. There is a level where I wouldn't value the title as much. So I might place value on something more than a national title.
I enjoy national titles far and away more than anything else. The ultimate prize is the only thing that is ultimately satisfying. But that is given the current landscape of things. If KU hoops went in the tank, that odd national title might not make me as happy.
But UConn isn't that. UConn has been an excellent program, with some valleys, and four wonderful peaks. I just enjoy the mountain tops much more than I enjoy stopping at various plateaus along the way. Look, we are a great program. I know that. We should just have two more rings in the past 30 years than we achieved. If we had won in 1997 and 2011, we wouldn't be debating this -- or at least I wouldn't.
Let's get the ring this season .. then go back to back in 2015-16. Agreed?
Well, I would agree that it settles the question as well -- it is an excellent example. Saban, the best college football coach. Actually, I never even considered how many league titles he had won. Never thought about it. No matter how much respect one has for Self or the conference title thing, it's just a different success.
Like winning a conference tourney .. that's a different type of success. You get to parade around like MU every so often. Win 10 regular season titles, and that is great accomplishment. A conference title makes you the master of 10, 11, or 12 .. or whatever the number of conference teams there may be.
Being the national champion makes you the master of the universe.
Individuals are judged, too .. how many division titles did Dan Marino win as a quarterback? Right, who cares. He never won a super bowl. How many division titles did Patrick Ewing or Karl Malone win. Hmmm .. no one cares. We know the Braves won multiple division titles, but do we worship that? No.
Quick .. how many league titles did the Jacque Vaughn led Jayhawks win? But you do know that they did not fulfill their potential -- the potential being a national title.
Do we lament any year when we didn't win the league title? Do we spend anytime talking about the league title that got away? We spend lots of time talking about 2003, or 2012, or 1997, or 2011 (Ugh, now I won't sleep well tonight ... damn 2011).
10 straight is an amazing streak. And it is the kind of streak that could put coach Self into the discussion of being in the top 5 college coaches of all time if ... "if" ... you know what the "if" is right? "If" he wins more national titles.
Without more titles, he's a damn good coach.
National titles -- winning the ultimate title -- catapults one to a different level.
By the way, I did wear my league title shirt last week. I told my wife @drgnslayr said I had to. She was thankful by the way, since she'd bought me the shirt and I'd never worn it. I didn't wear it in public yet, though. I have to take this stuff a step at a time.
@drgnslayr That's a very good point. Self has conditioned us to be most attentive to the defensive end of the floor. When it is subpar, like last season, we feel like we're in a different world.
We are basically 60 days away .. less than that until camp opens. God bless America.
I know the prevailing thought is that we need a rim protector .. a true center type.
My thought has always been that we really don't. Give me two bad a**, athletic 4s that can play D and score, and I don't think that causes us any issues. See 2008. We did have Kaun off the bench as a nice change-up.
@Crimsonorblue22 that seems odd to me. Sure, maybe his freshman season might be a bit limited, but he'd be the man after that in the middle.
On to the next thing, as it always is in recruiting.
Ugh .. Davis goes to A&M, Shepherd last year to TCU. Weird. You're Tyler Davis and you want to play in the NBA; and you choose A&M?
Makes me wonder. Makes me wonder if he got a conditional offer from Self? Perhaps given the limited number of scholarships?
"Hey, yea, we want you, but we need to see where other guys sort out."
@icthawkfan316 Uh, yea .. and actually, I still think that. I do not think Zimmerman will be a OAD. My post here was more to avoid guys that are even in that consideration. I saw a post above referencing that Bragg might be. That's the difficulty with my simplistic analysis. There's a grey area - a maybe, maybe not. Or guys like Embiid who vault into that status. I mentioned Zimmerman here being on the fringe.
What do you think on Zimmerman, or everyone else for that matter? I love the guy. Would like to have him over Davis in a minute, but for the damned OAD possibility. So yes, I'm conflicted.
By the way, I really enjoyed reading everyone's posts. Gets the mind a thinkin'.
Heck, I even pulled @konkeyDong out of the woods ... anything that does that is a good thing, I think.
@drgnslayr thanks for the film.
I am in the camp that Ellis won't turn pro. But Self has to recruit as if he will. Kind of a different subject, but this is where I don't understand the mindset of Landen Lucas, for example. We talks sometimes about guys getting "recruited over." Such is the life of Landen Lucas.
Great kid, and could be playing right now in many, many other places. I get the KU thing, but he'll never get the years back. He's now had two seasons of bench time, and appears to be staring a competition with Mickelson in the face just to be the 4th big. I understand that things could break right for him, but if not, he's in the same role he was last season. And if we land a Zimmerman, or a top tier post talent for 2015-16, and Ellis stays, he's still behind the new recruit, Ellis, and Traylor (not even considering Mickelson). And then he has just one season to play. Seems like the battle with Mickelson is literally the battle of his college career.
Back to recruiting, I agree the weight issue is a consideration for Davis, but seriously, where better for the kid to go? We have the best trainer. If he comes here, I cannot imagine that weight/being in shape will hold him back. And know the type of trainer that is at KU, in advance, would indicate that he isn't a lazy kid. But I agree. Would you rather have someone without weight issues? Sure. But I'd take this risk, as opposed to a chiseled OAD.
@globaljaybird I think you make a good point. From the PG perspective, my pet peeve is when PG's don't deliver the ball when the defense helps on penetration -- the Tyshawn Taylor blinders. When a defender or defenders move to help, the PG has to have the knack to drop the ball to the open player. And, importantly, the PG has to understand the correct type of pass given the situation -- it is what made RRob and Chalmers so good. When they penetrated, they delivered the right type of pass given the situation. On penetration, I think the best perspective for a PG is to look first for the dish, and second for his own finish. TT never did that. He was "shoot first" come hell or high water. I think this really limited his effectiveness throughout his career. My hope is that Mason will continue his trend of becoming more of the distributor.
Nice topic .. this clearly the most interesting battle this fall. Self added Graham, and there was a lot of chatter, mostly by national guys, that he would be our answer. He might be.
But I expect Mason to seize the job. First, Mason has "it." He is tenacious, he has no fear, and he has tight handles. But more importantly, he learned. We saw it. He had some horrible performances. But he learned. By the of the season, he wasn't driving recklessly into the trees. He was dishing with greater purpose and efficiency. He was more under control. And his three point shooting improved.
I think the battle is between CF and Graham for another rotation spot. I simply haven't seen Graham in action. But I favor guys who have been here, and CF, based on his solid play at the end of the season, might have a leg up.
One thing I do expect ... assuming we add a top perimeter player in our recruiting class, or Selden or Oubre don't turn pro, I expect either Mason, CF, or Graham to transfer. One of them. If Selden and Oubre turn pro, and we don't add top perimeter guy, there's room for all of them.
Here's my stab at the perfect recruiting class -- staying far away from any hint of OAD stench. No Stone, no Newman, not even Zimmerman (who is on the OAD fringe):
The perfect three man recruiting class:
- Tyler Davis, C.
- Carlton Bragg, PF
- Tyler Dorsey, SG
If I could draw it up, and by a flick of @jaybate-1.0's magic wand, create a three man recruiting class for 2015, this would be it.
Something that is still obvious in the 2015 class, and that is the lack of PF prospects. I had mentioned this back last fall. It is why I felt that we should target folks that weren't OADs over a guy like Alexander. It creates a reasonable possibility that our top three post players are Lucas, Traylor, and Mickelson next season, if Ellis and Alexander bolt, and we miss on top guys. Snagging at least one post player is an absolute must. And the playing time opportunities appear to be enticing, even for two top guys.
In Davis and Bragg, we would have two post players that would be nearly certain three year guys. Both guys that need some development. Both guys that can play in the NBA, but need KU to get there. This would not be a pit stop. It would be a destination. This package secures our post future for the near future. High talent, size, tenacity, and motivation.
Tyler Dorsey provides a perfect combo guard choice. Again, the type of player that has NBA talent, but not a "for sure" NBAer.
All three visit October 10 for late night. If we are drawing things up on a chalk board, this is the best result we could hope for.
Here's their ESPN summaries:
Tyler Davis
Strengths:
Davis is a wide body post player who has made great strides in a short period of time. He has lost over 35 pounds and plans to continue to drop weight. Davis has excellent hands, touch, feel and patience with his post moves, mostly scoring over his left shoulder with a hook or powerful drop step through contact. Davis is a good area rebounder and can block shots mostly on the ball. Davis does a good job of holding his ground on defense and playing vertical with his hands up, making the defense shoot over him. Davis handles the ball pretty well for his size and can knock down the open high post jumper with needed time and space. He is tough and competes on both ends. Davis is also a standout offensive lineman.
Weaknesses:
Davis doesn't have much left yet but getting around him to deny the ball will make you wish he was more explosive. He must continue to work to improve his conditioning in order to play for longer periods of time which will lead to being more productive.
Bottom Line:
Davis is a true center with off the charts upside. He can score inside and out to about 15 feet comfortably. He rebounds in his area and has decent skills for his size. Controlling his weight and improving his conditioning is key for high level long term success.
Carlton Bragg
Strengths:
Bragg is an ultra-athletic specimen who can impact the game in a variety of ways. He attacks the offensive glass, finishes in transition, and is an explosive around the rim. He has a lengthy frame with long arms and he has great feet. He plays with tenacity at both ends and his hands are terrific. Bragg has extended his range out to the arc. He runs the floor on the break where he spots up waiting for the advance or kick out pass.
Weaknesses:
Bragg is coming on strong and has improved from a season ago, but his skill set is still a bit raw. He needs to improve his ability to score with his left hand and continue to add to his face-up game. Utilizing the triple threat game (jab step, up fake, etc.) while facing up his defender will enhance his overall game. Bragg will need to play with more energy and urgency and compete throughout the game which will lead to increased production.
Bottom Line:
Once his offensive game matures, he has all the physical intangibles to be an elite high-major and has the potential to play after college. Bragg has to improve his motor but all all the other tools to be a special player with continued skill develop. He has the motor, bounce, and length to be a McDonald's All-American-he's that talented.
Tyler Dorsey
Strengths:
Dorsey has a lethal combination of his size and skill is a sight to see and his athleticism is impressive. He explodes in the open court (reminiscent of John Wall while in high school) and he can cover a lot of ground in a hurry. Although he is most noted for his scoring prowess (pull-ups and slashing drives), his passing ability is what sets him apart from most of his peers.
Weaknesses:
Dorsey is a mature prospect (old for his grade), thus it will be interesting to see how much more he physically develops. Dorsey needs to slow down some in the half court set and play on balance (leaves his feet while passing) which leads to charges and turnovers. Like most players he has a tendency to pound the ball too much, which leads to some turnovers and forced shots. By continuing to develop a triple threat game (squaring up, quick 1st step, jab step, pump fake, etc.) instead of over-handling it, the game should slow down for him.
Bottom Line:
Dorsey continues to prove why he should be mentioned amongst the nation%u2019s elite for his class. Due to his scoring prowess and approach to the game (plays hard), he has a chance to be an elite shooting guard with continued savvy and skill development.
@KUSTEVE I think if Tharpe would have just been benched to start the NCAA tourney, and hadn't played at all, we would have advanced past Stanford (despite our severe tactical errors/inaction related to that game).
CF and Mason are much better players than Tharpe had digressed to. And I think this season they will be a good bit better than Tharpe was last season (understanding Tharpe won us at least one game, and was an excellent shooter for a good stretch). Tharpe just went in the tank.
But I don't think our guard play was the main issue in our loss vs. Stanford.
Actually, this season, I'm more worried about our post play to be honest. I think we have the best perimeter group in the nation. Would anyone trade this group for another perimeter group? I wouldn't.
This is terrific stuff. @jaybate-1.0 at his best. I recall a few debates with jaybate tormentors on the other site, and one of my replies was simply, "you are not thinking on the same level as jaybate ... give it up."
My advice to myself now is, "you are not thinking on the same level as jaybate, just enjoy it."
A perfect post. Great start to the day.
If this team doesn't compete for a national title, there is something wrong. Next season may or may not be better. We're on the OAD merry go round. Where it stops, nobody knows. We could have multiple players leave. Or maybe not. Predicting the following season is a pot shot.
This season, we should certainly contend. Again, unless we win the title, I'll be disappointed. We have title winning talent, we're recruiting the high level guys Self wants -- he needs to win a title then with those guys.
What I dread is the "we're young" excuse that Self plays all the time. That excuse is completely hollow when he has structured his recruiting targets so we have "young" guys in important positions.
We have as much talent as any team. This is a national championship season until it isn't.
@JayHawkFanToo You are quite correct on Embiid .. is Kasongo an unknown type guy? It didn't seem that way to me.
But I'm always curios why a guy isn't ranked. Reasonable question (or red flag).
@drgnslayr I agree that there is no risk here. We have an open scholarship. That's all this is about. It's also insurance -- if Ellis and Alexander leave, and we miss on the top big guys, he has a body. If he signs, and doesn't work out, I'm sure a spring transfer when needed is simply a Bill Self conversation away -- I'm sure Kasongo might have a daughter, or other family member, he'd like to be closer to. He's not going to stand in the way of us signing the guys Self really wants. There is no real risk with this move, if we make it. But it deserves zero excitement.
And we have had the discussion before -- "do we keep a mix of players, both OADs and project players?"
But I would offer this -- what about the top 50 guys? There are not projects in the top 50. Folks called Embiid a project, and he was a start now guy. TRob wasn't a project in my opinion -- he needed to sit and learn his freshman season like most top 50 guys. We have never taken a real "diamond in the rough" -- unranked guy -- and sent him off to the NBA. None. We've polished many into NBA guys, as @drgnslayr said. All of our NBA guys were guys that, with work, should get there.
I just think any hype on this guy is silly (and I know @drgnslayr isn't hyping him). We read that Kasongo is a physical specimen like Ibaka and that “He’s like Amar’e Stoudemire when he first got in the NBA. That’s what he is.” -- from his AAU coach. Ugh. Sure he is.
The guy is unranked. Still. Consider this -- his biggest selling point on Kasongo is his alleged performance against Alexander and Okafor two years ago. Right. Two years ago. So this didn't (allegedly) happen recently, and thus his lack of a ranking reflects this meaningless selling point.
The fact this guy is now a hot commodity means nothing. It's supply and demand. There are teams with open scholarships, and very few players available. It means nothing.
All this guy is, until proven otherwise, is a body. A guy that would come in, bang in practice, and if all goes right, develop into a back-up like Traylor. Sure, we could get hit by the Trey Burke or Derrick Williams lightning bolt, but I've never seen that lightning bolt hit at Kansas.
As @drgnslayr said, we have a scholarship open. It's a reasonable gamble. No risk. Potential reward. As Rocky said to Clubber, "go for it."
@JayHawkFanToo ... Did you just say that Ellis "certainly could defend the 3 in college"? Are your referring to the lower 50% of 3 guys, for example? Not the better guys, I would assume.
I'm curious, isn't lateral quickness a significant issue for him? Not being fast, but quick?
@drgnslayr You are right there .. there were some games where Ellis flat got benched. And we know it was all defense (or energy) related. There were many times when Self chose to play Traylor over Ellis.
@Crimsonorblue22 Did you say Ellis can't defend at the 3, or that he just can't defend .. bit hazy there. But correct in either case. I do have hope that his defense has improved. It's mostly about an anchor, not getting moved. He is just not as quick laterally as a guy like Traylor either, as some have pointed out. There are a number of things I'm hopeful about, and one is Ellis' defense. I don't want to have those zone vs. man debates this season. Tharpe gone, Ellis improved by 25% on D, and we are all in the "man" boat together.
@HawkInMizery - by your screen name, might have thought you were already married .. kidding, if you choose wisely, it's a choice you won't regret. But will you move out of Missouri?
@BeddieKU23 Right .. if Traylor is a solid and reliable first big off the bench this year and next, he has exceeded expectations based on ranking and recruitment. Actually, I think he's probably done that already. He is a nice choice to be a break-out player. @drgnslayr is making a high-odds gamble there .. instead of say going with a less volatile choice, he's looking to make bigger money.
If Traylor does breakout, and puts himself in a position to make money playing basketball, there will be no one in America more deserving.
And yes, we can forgive his July 4 rant.
@Crimsonorblue22 You said .... "Depending on the match ups, I'd put 4 guards and Mari in to press. Run the floor."
Somewhere, coach Self is just laughing, thinking to himself, "what does @Crinsonorblue22 know that I don't know? I'm the all knowing God of basketball. Press? Too risky. Feed the post. Play good old fashioned man-to-man all the time. Let the opponent dictate pace. Press? Don't you know we could give up an easy basket? Press? Only when it's panic time."
I ask the age old question ... If the guy is really that good, why isn't he ranked at least in the top 100?
Why soccer is silly, my top 10 (all in fun):
- A clock that counts up, not down
- Penalty kicks at point blank range - goalie just guesses
- Tie games being a "victory"
- Fake injuries as part of the culture of the sport
- Yellow cards and red cards
- Stoppage time - not stopping the clock so you actually know how much time is left
- Best of two series/aggregate goal
- Urine Bombs and freaky third world fans
- One ref on a field that is bigger than a football field
- Use by Americans of the word nill, instead of zero
Plus, I would add the soccer players don't "run" as much as advertised. They jog or trot 3/4 of the time. Bursts here and there. Plus they play positions on the field. Basketball, in my humble opinion, requires one to be in the best shape of any sport.
@BeddieKU23 On Alexander, you said "... I definitely think 10 boards a game is something he could easily average."
I would just be shocked and amazed if Cliff averaged double figure rebounds. Since Simien, a KU player has only averaged double figure boards twice .. TRob and Aldrich each did it once, as @JayHawkFanToo pointed out.
You better gets some serious odds if you're going to make that bet.
@drgnslayr Well, I'm guessing you're right there. Dodd was referring to Portugal.
Self has described Svi as "weak" physically, as I recall. We tend think these guys can just come right in and be effective, given the OAD culture. But what about this guy demonstrates that he will be anything but a normal, talented freshman? I'd say nothing. Heck, is Oubre better than Svi? Really don't know until they lace 'em up.
Exhibition football starts tonight. That just means we're closer to hoops season.
I guess I'm not down on Svi; I just am extremely skeptical of the instant or immediate impact this season. I think, at best (barring injuries to others), he'll play Brannen Greene's role from last season (5th perimeter guy). Who else does he beat out for time? PG? No. Selden? No. Oubre? No.
That leaves two perimeter rotation spots left -- a second PG and Greene.
I think he's the likely starter at the 2 if he's still here for his sophomore season, and I think that gives us his greatest value. Great plug in and play for Selden.
Plausible scenario: Svi, and Greene are our starters at the 2, and 3 for 2015-16 and 2016-17.
Just realized this today .. the U18 European "championships" that Svi is playing in is the "B" division, not the "A" division. So not even the best U18 teams. So really, most likely, pretty average competition. As I'd posted before, Rustin Dodd had said Portugal would get beat by a Kansas high school all start team. Just pointing out that any apparent positives by Svi in this tournament really mean nothing when it comes to competing against real D-1 competition. Below is a link where you can see the A division, and B division.
Are we trying to convince ourselves that something is true here?
Who talks more about KU because of conference titles than UConn because of national titles? Maybe we do, simply because we're KU fans.
I'd rather have UConn's record over the years of their three titles, than our record and conference titles. That's easy. This is an average conference. No real contenders. It's why UCLA's conference streak is a yawner, too.
Really, who ever mentions UCLA's conference streak other than us now? Or national commentators when covering a KU game? Their national title streak is what matters. It's what is shown during the tourney .. UCLA 13 (or whatever), Kentucky 8 .... Kansas 3.
I cannot even fathom that someone would rather have those 10 conference titles than adding to our national title total.
Greatness, my friends, is determined by championships. Not winning National League Central, or the AFC West, or the Pacific Division, but by Super Bowls, by World Series titles, and NBA championships. And by NCAA championships. All real titles are won in tournaments. Does anyone really think of the Buffalo Bills or Minnesota Vikings as "champions"? Or that the Atlanta Braves were the champions of an era?
Let's raise the bar.
And @wissoxfan83 hit it right on the head .. "Put KU in any other major conference and we're not talking about 10 straight conference championships. This league just has not had the consistent elite challenger to KU that we need to toughen us up for March when the games really matter."
The truth is the truth. Add just one real basketball school to our conference, and sure, maybe we win 3/4 of those titles. But there is not streak. No one debates that, right?
It's also why Louisville would have been a nice add to the big 12 ....
@nuleafjhawk Yes, that is stirring the pot.
I think the question is whether he builds and develops his teams with March as the ultimate goal?
See, I've always said no. He plays balls to the wall to win each game. Period. His strategy is that by winning and playing well in the regular season, you prep for the post season (just my speculative opinion based on observation) . Proof is in the pudding. And the pudding is one national title. The tournament is a different animal than then regular season. Frenetic vs. Monotonous. Reactive vs. Proactive. Chain saw vs. Ax.
In the regular season, it's a grind. Chopping wood. March is requires a different preparation.
Self is absolutely the best regular season coach in modern times. Self is not near the best post season coach in any timeframe. Both statements can be true.
Cool .. a forked thread.
@nuleafjhawk Your comment about being a "good husband and father." That trumps everything. Actually, better than emperor of the universe.
But I do not see the national championship as icing on the cake. What are we playing for? What is the goal of a program like KU? Not a middling program. Not a shock the world one year and slip into oblivion program --- KU.
Look at the nice list of champions posted by @bskeet above? See any just "ok" programs? Maryland is the only one. Elite programs, really, all of them. Elite programs win national titles. Are Elite, or do we win conference titles and proclaim proudly that we are better than KSU, ISU, and the like?
This has to be the goal. Perhaps the discussion in the preseason. The item that casts a shadow over everything else.
But as I'd mentioned, winning the conference helps with seeding, which helps with your chances to win a title. That's the only value, right now, in my book, for KU.
@Wishawk You're right. Slips in as a starter at the 2 his sophomore season. That is a perfectly realistic expectation.
To the point made a while back that European teams would not want Svi now because of his age, that he needs to be developed, etc., here's what Fran Fraschilla said:
“As a 17-year old, Mykhailiuk was actively pursued by a number of top European clubs, but elected to attend college instead. He will not turn 18 until next June, and may be the youngest player in a power conference this coming season. Despite his age, he is talented enough to help Kansas as a freshman.”
Just a bit of info .. Rustin Dodd had posted on Twitter that he didn't think that the Portugal national U18 team (one of the Ukraine's competitors) would be able to beat the Kansas all-star High School team, commenting on the level of competition at the U18 event.
@RockChalkinTexas Your wish is my command, from ESPN, entitled "Kansas basketball will be even better in 2014-15", by Jay Bilas --
The last time Kansas failed to win the Big 12 title, man was just climbing out of the primordial ooze. Before every season we naively ask: "Will this be the year that someone knocks Kansas off its lofty perch?"
The Jayhawks are coming off a 25-10 season in which they won the Big 12 with a 14-4 conference record and entered the NCAA tournament as a No. 2 seed. Coach Bill Self lost two players, Andrew Wiggins and Joel Embiid, to the NBA draft, along with his starting point guard, Naadir Tharpe. And, without the late-season injuries to Embiid, one could argue that Kansas' postseason results would have been much better.
But the cupboard is hardly bare. It is fully stocked with young talent, and Kansas will be the favorite to win the Big 12 yet again and have a legitimate chance to be even better this season than it was last season.
How can Kansas lose two lottery picks and be even better? After all, as good as Kansas' incoming freshmen are, they aren't locks to be lottery picks next season. The answer is improved perimeter defense and a different mindset. Kansas will not have players with better skill sets, but they can have a better collective mindset.
Last season, which was very good but not historically great by Kansas standards, the Jayhawks were fourth in the Big 12 in field goal percentage defense, allowing opponents to shoot 42 percent from the floor. Kansas struggled with defending the 3-point line all season, allowing opponents to shoot 36 percent, good for 10th in the Big 12. The team had a negative turnover margin (minus-1.9, 10th in the Big 12) and was sixth in the league in 3-point accuracy. After losing its leading scorer, free throw shooter and best perimeter defender in Wiggins, its rim protector and rebounder in Embiid, and its top assist man in Tharpe (5.0 assists per game, third in the Big 12), Kansas certainly appears -- on the surface, at least -- vulnerable.
Forget it.
Unless Self leaves or Kansas has a rash of injuries, this team has the pieces to be better than last season. Returning are top talents like big man Perry Ellis and wing Wayne Selden, along with point guard Frank Mason. Role players Jamari Traylor, Brannen Greene and Conner Frankamp are back, and Self has assembled an outstanding recruiting class of Kelly Oubre, Cliff Alexander, Devonte Graham and Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk. (We need to find this guy a nickname -- quick.)
Kansas returns one of the nation's most productive big men in Perry Ellis.Ellis was among the top scorers and rebounders in the Big 12 last season and is capable of producing big performances. He was excellent at the Nike LeBron James Skills Academy this summer and should be among the best and most productive big men in the country this season. Selden averaged 9.7 points per game last season, hit 42 3-pointers (at a 32.8 percent clip) and showed flashes of brilliance playing alongside Wiggins.
Mason is a strong, sturdy point guard who did a solid job when spelling Tharpe. He had a 2-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio and can defend. Frankamp and Greene, both very young and inexperienced last season, gave Self some situational perimeter shooting but gave up things on defense. Both should be much better this season after a year of experience. Traylor is efficient and productive in limited minutes and capable of more as an upperclassman.
Oubre is a special talent. The lefty is athletic, skilled and very confident. He can shoot and get to the rim and can be another productive freshman under Self. Alexander is a big, wide and strong post player who is very productive on the glass and scoring around the goal. After some time with Self and learning angles in the post, Alexander will be a load. The key to the team may wind up being Graham, a true point guard who has speed and quickness. He can penetrate, change speeds and defend on the ball. Mykhailiuk is an experienced European player who can stretch the floor.
Kansas will be motivated to improve upon last season's 25-10 record and early NCAA tournament exit. With the horses Self has recruited added into a stable of solid veterans, this team can and will be better. It'll be theoretically possible, but not at all likely, for Iowa State or Oklahoma to knock off the Jayhawks and send them to second place in the Big 12. Rock Chalk it up.
And of course, to be fair, my feeling that conference championships are meaningless is a bit influenced by the fact that we have won 10 in a row.
Don't get me wrong, it is something to be proud of -- my wife actually was nice enough to get me a t-shirt after the 9th one. I kindly said thank you, but have never worn it. But I respect the fact that folks value those titles.
I just want our team's focus to be singular and direct every season -- National Title. Everything we do. Every action we take. Every move we make. All geared toward a run in March. To win the title.
My position has changed a little bit. I was very much into sacrificing games during the season if needed to ready our team for March. Then I really delved into the seeding and path to the title. The seeding aspect supports playing for the #1 seed, as #1 seeds win the title a vast majority of the time. So those are a bit contradictory. I still think that picking the player that will be better in March is the better choice than picking the player that is better now.
The proper share of national titles is all this program is lacking. How do we do that? How do we win two of the next five? That's the only puzzle I want coach Self to solve.
@RockChalkinTexas I would much rather Ellis have said "I'm focused on winning a national championship" there instead of a Big 12 title. Big 12 title means nothing.
@JayHawkFanToo Self played Chalmers, Robinson, and Collins together when Rush sat in 08. The three spot is pliable, and is another perimeter position, lacking only in ball handling responsibility. McLemore flexed to a 3 look many times as Releford was a better ball handler in 2012. Further, Reed played the "3" spot too. The 3 just isn't that much different than the 2 in Self's offense.
Self could have played TT, EJ, and Reed at the perimeter positions if he felt that those three were the best players. Just like he said earlier this summer that he could play three PG/lead guard types together. None are 3s in the Rush or Oubre sense. Not that big of a deal.
Also, Little never played the 2. I'm not sure what you are referring to.
The real issue is Self's choice, as you identify. He was comfortable with Brady, his post feeding, his crisp ball rotation, and his good defense against certain types of players. Self makes many more good decisions than bad. But this one was arguably a bad one. EJ's quality of play did not miraculously change from year 2 to year 3. Neither did Releford's. Self may have believed that Brady was a better option, but coaches are wrong sometimes. Coaches make strategic errors. Coaches mistakenly assume certain things will lead to better results.
Self is just a coach. So yes, I think Self thought Brady was better. I also think, in this instance, he was wrong. I would take EJ or Releford of 2012 over anything Brady ever offered.
Finally, proof is in the pudding. In the three years that Brady was in our lineup, we never got to the final four. We did so in the year preceding, and the following year. In 2012, both EJ and Releford started. We would have been better in 2011 if EJ and Releford started instead of Reed and Brady. No one would take Reed and Brady of 2011 over EJ and Releford of 2012.
It wasn't all Brady of course. Further, in 2010, we lost to UNI. Brady didn't play much that game. But Self played Brady major minutes before that, taking playing time away from others who arguably could have helped. We were stuck with a very tight rotation, and no options when primary guys misfired, and we didn't adjust to what was happening on the floor. Personally, I always like developed options. But 2010 is not what I have a gripe with. 2011 is.
I think my main issue in 2011 is, partly, that I saw it coming. Many who posted at KU sports did. Brady showed that vs. athletic guys, and the better players, he struggled on D. There were times he just flat disappeared on offense and was shut down. There were times he was out-athleted. He was a fish out of water vs. VCU. Both he and Reed performed horribly in the exact type of game that you would expect that to happen.
We simply placed too much reliance on Brady. He would have been very good in a 10-13 minute substitute role. Just not a primary role. And that's really all I've ever said. He was miscast as a big minutes starter.
@Crimsonorblue22 Absolutely. It would be very important to me as a parent. But if my kid is a high level talent, my first goal would be the best path to an NBA career. The education (or finishing it) can come any time. Only one shot for the career (and coming to KU is probably the best path for that for Svi).
That said, if my kid could make millions in the NBA, and did make those millions, the college education part would mean nothing to me. The education is a means to an end, a hoop to jump through, so you can make money, and support a family. Making big NBA money over an NBA career of 10 years, say just $1 million a season, $10 million, would work out nicely to a 30 year career at $300,000+ per year.
@Statmachine Thus the dilemma -- who sits?
Here's how it could work -- 1) Svi really can handle the ball, can be that back PG, and 2) only one -- Mason, Graham, or CF get PG minutes. OR 1) He simply beats out Brannen Greene.
Personally, I don't think either scenario happens.
I agree with your assessment that he could bail if not getting PT. There are a few that simply say that is crazy, no way. But the recent defection of Emmanual Mudiay clearly shows that players of that high caliber can get big deals over seas for one season (China). Euro teams, as has been pointed out here by @JayHawkFanToo may not be much into raw, development projects on one year deals. That seems proven by Mudiay choosing one year in China at $1 million +. But if Svi doesn't play here, and becomes a bit disillusioned, there are worse things than signing a three year Euro deal -- and if he's of this high talent range that everyone says, that is plausible.
If he isn't of that high talent range, he might stick around even if he doesn't play.
It's just a bigger risk than your normal dude -- my concern has simply been that 1) Self does play Svi either on merit or to placate him so he won't transfer, and 2) that Svi leaves, and 3) that the playing of Svi leads to the transfer of another player or two (Greene, CF, etc).
If Svi is a stud, earns his minutes, and stays a couple of seasons, perfect.
@VailHawk My position has consistently been that EJ should have been given the 2 spot and left alone (since EJ's poor senior season as PG). That would mean that he would have started that season at the 2 and played major minutes every game. I just know what I saw. And it was B-star related.
Now, I admit, I saw EJ as a point guard. And at the time, felt that he should play over TT. I was dead wrong in that assessment -- meaning, EJ was not a PG. However, I did at the time express many times that EJ should be playing over B-star, too. EJ's performance in the tourney in 2012 validated that opinion. The VCU game was the exact type of game I mentioned in postings during that season, that Brady could be an Achilles' heel.
In hindsight, it seems obvious that EJ was a 2. And should have had that job. Now, of course, it's Self's job to recognize that. He hitched his wagon to Brady.
Would we have beaten VCU if we would have played them in the same spot, with EJ being the man at the 2 spot all season? I firmly believe that we would have. Can't guarantee that. But would you (or anyone) rather have had EJ, and his style of play vs. VCU over Brady? Easy.
Together with that, I would have preferred more minutes from Releford, who also proved his worth in 2012 (though slowed by the ankle in 2011 -- Self clearly was playing Reed and Brady over Releford even before the ankle).