🏀 KuBuckets Archive

Hmmm ... the only teams with an OAD as part of their rotation to actually win a national title are Syracuse in 2003 with Carmelo Anthony, and UK in 2012. That's it.

Further, I think even a more valid point is coach Self as a system coach. He approaches things much differently than coach Cal. Both are terrific coaches. I think it works for Cal, maybe not for Self. But we will certainly see this season with Oubre and Alexander. Let's hope it works.

Moving the age requirement to 20, though, might not give us anything to talk about.

@dylans Maybe it was intentional ...

I agree with the Greene choice over White. We had discussed this a bit back in late November when we were hoping Self would settle on a perimeter rotation. Greene just seems to have more going for him from an all around game perspective. I love his fire, too. And you hit on another good point. All things being equal, Greene had three more seasons left.

@Hawk8086 The practice thing is the great unknown. I do recall Self saying that Greene was struggling in practice last November. But heck, guys can struggle and still be better than the guy next to them. I have no doubt that practice performance is a part of the equation, and that may vary player to player.

@drgnslayr Ok, I thought you meant that they excelled. And I spelled Lindsay wrong, didn't I? Seldon would be proud.

@JRyman Amazing and inspirational stories like yours certainly can help others. It is amazing to me that the concussion issue has only really become a mainstream focus in the last few years. Best of luck, brother .. hope all continues well.

@MoonwalkMafia - I agree with your OAD statement, certainly. I'm just wondering if there is anyone other than the two of us who are not pro-OAD. Maybe a better way to say it is that most are "pro-recruit the best player regardless of presumed or potential OAD status."

@icthawkfan316 - I kind of wish I would have left my backhanded OAD reference out of it. But I can say right now, as I sit here today ... unequivocally ... if I could rewind, I'd rather we missed on Wiggins and Oubre, and were simply left with White and Greene. I think our progam would be stronger, and I think our overall results would not be different. And actually, here's wild speculation -- I think we beat Stanford (assuming we had the same matchup), mainly because as a team, we wouldn't have been so reliant on one guy (Wiggins), who Stanford took away. Again, wild speculation that I admit is probably worthless.

My opinion on White/Greene over Wiggins/Oubre is with the assumption that Oubre ends up just as good as Wiggins was in his freshman season. I think White would be a very sound 3, and Greene would have gotten much more PT, and would be further along as well. Compare that to a freshman coming in, new, learning the system. But I admit that there is a chance that either White or Greene would have crashed and burned.

I also see Greene still as a potential casualty here depending upon how Oubre, playing time, and new potential OAD recruits play out, thought not a lot of potential OADs at the SF spot. We had two high level 3s that could have been a core of our program. After seeing White's performance early in the season, I asked whether we'd have just been better off without Wiggins at that point. And the defense item you cite has questionable validity on White. Self never said White's defense was deficient -- now, does that mean it wasn't? I don't know. But it would seem that Self would have at least referenced it as some point as he's done with others to explain lack of PT. I thought White's D looked fine in his early season games. I don't recall him ever getting yanked because of it, or any huge flub.

See, I agree with your " we don't know until it all pans out" perspective -- when you're looking back. But as a coach, deciding on your program, and priorities, and structure, you don't have that luxury, as you know. You have to evaluate and speculate. Plainly, Self has decided that we're better off going this way. Peons like me dare to disagree. I like Travis Releford and what he brings to a team his junior and senior seasons, instead of Wiggins for just one. I just think you create better teams that way.

@drgnslayr - I'm not sure what you mean by a "Kansas bump." I guess I know what you are meaning, but I haven't seen it with any of our transfers -- Appleton, Peters, Adams, Thomas, Lindsey, Woolridge. Actually, I have always kind of felt that guys don't end up too well after transferring.

@jaybate - Ah, the shoeco thing. Is that what you are referring to? So, you think Wiggins is signing with Adidas then?

@BucknellJayhawk3 - Maybe Greene was the more volatile of the two, and White the more level headed? Maybe Self felt that he needed to show Greene he was higher in the pecking order? Self has gone out of his way to compliment Greene. I don't for a minute discount that it was simple competition and that it was simply Greene being better than White. I think that Greene being better than White in Self's eyes was the core of it all. But my speculation is that Self shut White down so as not to further complicate matters -- meaning, Self wants Greene, strongly believes Greene is better, but if White outperforms him? Greene then may see that as a transfer flag. I don't think this all came up late in the season. I think it was and is ever-present. Always part of the thought process. All the time. And I think Self might have different levels of "caring" about it, just like we might speculate. The better the player, the more he cares.

@REHawk I guess I am totally confused by the point guard deal (meaning who will start -- I lean towards Mason), but you've nailed it on the logjam thing. It's a continuous competition. And I would not be surprised if one of the three transfers after next season. Competition, survival of the fittest. Imagine if we sign pg Brunson? Or SG Newman? There are really 4, maybe 5, rotations spots that get PT among the perimeter positions (1, 2, and 3). But in 2015, there don't appear to be any presumed OAD point guards. If I were betting either way -- at least one transfers or none of the three transfer after this season -- I'd bet one transfers.

@KUSTEVE - Interestingly on the injury thing, White said it only caused him to miss “a game or two", not to fall off the face of the earth. But maybe it was a crucial time in Self's decision making? That was a time when Self had said on Hawk Talk that he had to decide on his 5 perimeter guys. Perhaps it all added up, and Self just moved on from White. Meaning he eliminated him at that point. That appears to be what happened.

Andrew White came to Ku as the 51st ranked player in the nation. White had a lot of promise. He leaves with little to show for his two years of blood, sweat, and effort given to the program. We know it’s not fair.

When White signed, he said he chose KU primarily “because of the opportunity. It wasn’t because of the hype that comes with Kansas. Seeing them play on TV, I see an opportunity to play as a freshman, and their style fits my strengths.”

But this came down to a simple competition – Andrew White vs. Brannen Greene. Coach Self had to project which player would be the better long term player at Kansas. And he had to ensure that we did not lose both White and Greene to transfer.

Three things set the Andrew White transfer into motion.

First, Andrew Wiggins’ signing claimed minutes that White could have reasonably assumed where his, assuming he could beat out Brannen Greene. That was easy to see. If given the opportunity, White could have conceivably seized the three spot for years to come. Wiggins’ signing robbed him of that chance.

Second, Kelly Oubre signing in November. A kid of this ranking isn’t coming to sit. Oubre – according to Oubre – was told by Self that he would come in and take Andrew Wiggins’ spot. Perhaps a necessary semi-promise to snag a top 10 guy. And top 10 guys don’t come to sit.

But third, and very importantly, I firmly believe that Self understood his roster limitations and the dynamic of his players. I believe that last November, after Kelly Oubre put his name on the dotted line, Self understood that he had a choice to make. And it wasn’t pretty.

So Self had a choice. It is the same choice we talked about here – White vs. Greene. We discussed it many times. The roster composition required that choice. Self was going to lose either White or Greene to a transfer. He had to choose. If Self didn’t choose, he could have two unhappy guys, no real pecking order, and risk losing both Greene and White to transfer. So Self chose Greene – a “future NBA” guy as Self has now touted. It was pretty clear that Self made that choice in early December. He committed to Greene, who is probably the guy that Self sees as most talented (as do most of us here). Perhaps he had a bit of a feel, too, that if Greene felt he was behind White, he was a big transfer risk. That makes sense. If Self had played White and White had actually performed as well as he did to open the season, Self would be stuck, wouldn’t he? So Self shut him down – a clear way to commit to his choice. Self could not risk that White would perform, or outperform Greene. Wildly unfair to White? Of course.

Here’s why it was unfair – White actually performed and demonstrated that he was ready for a full rotation role. Against UL-Monroe, first game of the season, White played 19 minutes, went 4-6 from the field, and 3-5 from three point land, scoring 12 points. Then, against Duke, he only played 4 minutes. Next game out against Iona, White only got 8 minutes of playing time but went 2-3 from the field (1-2 from three) for 6 points. Then, against Towsen, White played 14 minutes, 4-6 shooting, 2-4 from three. At that point, he was clearly our team’s best three point shooter and really was the most productive player giving minutes played. Against Wake, he played 17 minutes, scored 4 points, going 0-3 from three point range. Even then, he was a 40% three point shooter (6 of 15).

That’s where it ended. His playing time over the next 8 non-conference games? A total of 22 minutes. His playing time significantly decreased prior to the hip-pointer, that White says really only caused him to miss “a game or two.” I'm quite confident that the "hip-pointer" had nothing to do with it.

It was the tough choice that Self gets paid to make. It was really a shrewd and tactical roster decision. Self has to determine which players will make KU the best possible team. In this case, it was Greene over White. Perhaps the best long-term decision. It’s just as simple as we made it in our discussions here at kubuckets.com.

Andrew White deserved better. Self said during White’s freshman season, “Does Andrew deserve from a talent standpoint to play more? Absolutely. No question.” But in the end, like Clint Eastwood said in Unforgiven, just before putting a rifle shot between Little Bill’s eyes, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.”

I don’t think anyone likes seeing Andrew White go. Personally, I’d rather have just gone with White and Greene and let Wiggins and Oubre go elsewhere. But that’s another discussion.

Self made the hard decision – Greene over White – to ensure that he did not lose both players. It wasn't pretty. If a choice had to be made, and I’m convinced that it did, this was the right decision. Self couldn’t afford to risk losing both. Tough decision, perhaps unfair, kind of ugly, perhaps harsh. But in the end, a necessary decision.

@REHawk FYI, if White transfers in-conference -- meaning to a Big 12 school -- he would lose a year of eligibility on top of his redshirt year.

Wow. Just saw this. I'm getting giddy now.

@ParisHawk Right, and it would be crazy for White to risk his entire college career on the possibility that Self might decide he's not worthy of playing over Greene, Oubre (if he stays another year), or the next OAD.

@icthawkfan316 - I don't blame Wiggins' signing fully. But I think we can all agree that if Wiggins didn't sign, White would have started this season at the 3. After that, we don't know. But opportunity is an amazing thing. Wiggins signing took away that opportunity.

So we aren't all crazy. This was obvious since early December. It highlights, as does Tharpe's transfer, the intense competition for scholarships.

I am very relieved, actually. I could not imagine that White would stay, and sit, and waste his college career on the bench. He's already wasted one season where he clearly should have been playing somewhere. Self obviously didn't care for his game.

This is a guy I'll really root for. Sure looked promising when he was best player in Europe prior to 2012-13. And when Self played him at the 4 against Belmont -- 15 points. Excellent rebound rate his freshman season. Nearly won the Ok. St. game at home. When he played early this season, he looked pretty solid to me. He just needed that elusive opportunity.

I would have been very interested to see how he would have done starting for a 10 or 15 game stretch. Just the opportunity. But, we all got watch Wiggins take the playing time and then shuffle off to the NBA. Our lives are so much fuller thanks to that 5 month interlude.

When we signed Wiggins, I said Greene or White would be the casualty. I'll take the Andrew Whites over the Andrew Wiggins every day of the week. Let's hope the kid finds the right spot and has a great final two seasons.

@drgnslayr Pat Forde graduated from Missouri, fyi.

@drgnslayr Right ... I posted this under @konkeyDong's "Rounding out the class of 2014" post a bit back:

Another player on our radar?

Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk | Undecided | 6-foot-6 | Ukraine

Mykhailiuk is considered one of the best 16-year-old players in the world and, after the recent Nike Hoop Summit, has drawn the interest of a number of high-major basketball programs including Iowa State, Virginia, Kansas and Oregon. He exploded on the European scene last summer, averaging 25 points, eight rebounds and four assists at the FIBA Europe Under-16 tournament.

The young Ukrainian can play both guard spots, although he is best suited right now to play off the ball at the college level. He is an excellent shooter with NBA range and a strong, physical player for his age. As the son of educators, Mykhailiuk will be a high school graduate and enroll in college at the age of 17 -- if he’s not pressured to sign a pro contract. There’s a great chance we will see him in college next season.

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/ncbexperts/post?id=2196 ↗

@ralster Your direct, first hand knowledge is awesome. It's actually about as good as it gets.

Do I have this right?

1. A point guard that can shoot, thus be the "shooting guard" or the 2, is thus a combo guard. He's a combo guard because he can serve the point guard function and the 2 guard function.

2. A shooting guard that can handle the ball like a point guard is also a combo guard because he can serve both the shooting guard function and the 1 guard function.

Please let me know if I have oversimplified, which I have a tendency to do. Is it this simple?

I could see Self getting an unranked post guy that could end up being expendable if the scholarship is needed. With Ellis possibly turning pro and Alexander probably gone, no harm in providing a little security.

But it's hard to disagree with the logic of leaving it open in case something falls in your lap in August.

Milton Doyle type guy ...

@konkeyDong thanks for the analysis. I have a short window here this morning so I'll try to hit on a few of your points that I might disagree with. I will say that your formatting got messed up. Under "8. Expanded Zone Offense", it appears you are quoting me. That is not my quote obviously. That appears to be your response.

1. Pace of Game: My point was that Self's approach discourages a faster pace of game. That is, the quick hook for a turnover or quick shot. Not saying that is all bad. But the quick shot isn't all bad either, particularly for three point shooters. We don't immediately inbound the ball after a made basket and push it up the floor. Further, we don't execute an aggressive press break with a "score" mentality. I did not suggest that we press all the time, or even 50% of time. I suggested that "strategic use of the press is a must." Further, the use of targeted trapping more often. All of this can increase the pace of the game. You are correct. Using a press all the time can slow it down, depending upon the response of the offense. But using in sporadically can have the effect of speeding up the opponent, catching them off guard. But it can also create turnovers. "Pace of Game" is nothing more than trying to increase your offensive possessions, and making the opponents possessions less valuable. Dictating the flow of the game. We permitted Texas Tech to control the game pace. We can't let that happen. I think @konkeyDong has it right. I like coach Roy's offensive game plan. It can win NCAA titles. And grouped with coach Self's defensive philosophy, I think it would be an unbeatable combo. They can exist together.

2. Valuing the basketball: I'm not advocating a turnover happy team. All I have suggested is that it not be the know all, say all. This was all I said in conclusion: "Coach Self would be well served to adjust his mindset and be willing to accept more turnovers. Again, we don’t want turnovers. But sometimes, turnovers are indicative of aggressiveness. It is a necessary evil, but not one to overreact to." -- To be more aggressive means more turnovers. And that may not be all bad.

3. Zone Defense: Like kD, I am not an advocate of switching to zone as our core philosophy. I was this past season. I cannot say that zone would have given us a national title, but I can tell you that man to man did not. And I can tell you what I say, and what our defensive points per game rankings were last season. My sole point was to use zone as needed, citing other championship teams that have done so. Again, I am not suggesting to switch our philosophy to a zone team. We can use zone as part of our overall defensive approach, as needed, just like other teams do.

@icthawkfan316 Excellent point on the three point shooting.

@Statmachine I did hear that Self said he would give Selden that chance. But we all know, don't we? There isn't a chance in .. well .. you know where.

Selden can't handle the ball sufficiently. Wish he could.

@ralster Simply coming to Kansas has the uncanny knack of knocking off about 10-15% from any kid's high school three point shooting percentage, right? See, White, Greene, Frankamp, Mason, Selden.

Graham's reputation, from doing some minor poking around the internet, is that he is considered a strong on the ball defender.

This type of guy seems .. seems .. to be the absolutely perfect signing for a coach Self coached team. Possible 4 year guy, top 50, solid defensively, complete game, etc. And say it with me -- "he's not an OAD." God bless America.

Ok .. question. Assuming Mudiay is an OAD, would you rather have Mudiay for one season, or Graham for three?

Nothing better than OAD talk, is there?

@globaljaybird You seriously have too good of a memory. I remember suggesting I would have never let my kid play football with a basketball scholarship on the line ... took some serious grief for that one.

But I'll be interested to see what the health issues are, if it's just concussion stuff.

@justanotherfan Terrell was the Ok. St. commit that was released to go somewhere near his home; some family issue.

I'd hold the scholarship (give it to a walkon for the year) unless something knocks his socks off (preferably a top 50 post player that wants to transfer -- yea, I know).

On Wednesday, I posted that the only thing that really concerned me heading into next season was, in announcer voice --- "Starting at guard, a 5'11" senior, number 10, Naadir Tharpe."

That was quick. @KansasComet posted this afternoon - "Addition by subtraction as far as guard play goes." Here's why Tharpe's departure can only be viewed as a positive -- addition by subtraction:

1. More Talented Players: As seems quite obvious, Mason and Frankamp are both more talented. They both have more upside, higher ceilings. We will simply have a better all around player on the floor than Tharpe. Doesn't mean it will always seem that way.

2. No Temptation: Self saw Tharpe's play against EKU, a game where Self sent Tharpe to the bench three separate times due to extremely poor play. Then he trotted him out there against Stanford, even with other extremely poor games in the recent rear view mirror. With Tharpe gone, we don't have to worry about that. We don't have to be concerned that Self will start Tharpe because he's a senior. We don't have to worry about Self saying that Tharpe may not be the most talented player, but that he is the most important player. We don't have to worry about Tharpe creating a logjam with more talented players behind him. Best of all, Self will have to play Mason, CF, or Graham (if he signs) at PG. With Tharpe gone, Self won't be able to bench any of them in favor of Tharpe's "experience."

3. Defense: Most agree that Tharpe was horrific on the defensive end. Our defense immediately improves with Tharpe off the floor. This permits Self to place more reliance on his go-to philosophy -- tough man to man defense. Tharpe's biggest failing was the blow-by, which compromised our entire defensive structure. Further, Tharpe lacked any tenacity on the defensive end. No grit. The whipped puppy look was maddening. Clearly not passionate about it. Not a Self kind of guy. Mason and CF bring more every time.

4. November Issues: In November/2012, Tharpe was nearly benched for Adams. In November/2013, he was benched for Mason. Self, on both occasions, had to deliver ultimatums to Tharpe to inspire him. Tharpe questioned whether Self "liked" him. Perhaps the November drama will be gone with Tharpe. Still wonder the "what if" -- what if Self had benched Tharpe and gave the back-up job to Adams? Regardless, Tharpe takes with him another potential November melt-down.

5. Graham: Hopefully, this move will inspire Devonte Graham to pick KU. By all accounts, Graham is a significantly more talented player. But I have no idea -- hadn't heard of him until a few weeks ago. Solely based on rankings and comments - Jeff Goodman saying today he would expect Graham to start at PG next season for KU at some point if he came to Lawrence. Let's hope we snag this guy. It is even more important when you look at the dearth of high level point guards in the 2015 class. Only 4 in the top 60.

Separating the harsh basketball realities from the personal side of it, @globaljaybird summed it up pretty well - "But from all the rats on kubuckets, our deepest gratitude &sincerest thanks to you Nadir, for all you've accomplished, given, and the efforts you've put forth. Find the right path for your family & yourself. Sometimes things happen for reasons we don't fully understand, and just maybe it's better this time that we really don't."

Regarding internet quotes -

!photo (8).PNG ↗

@Kip_McSmithers Hard to ever prove alternative outcomes. But you can make reasonable assumptions. But you are exactly right.

@wrwlumpy Tharpe was much different player at the end of 2012-13 than he was at the end of this past season, wouldn't you agree? And KU played better in the Michigan game with Tharpe than with EJ (though I was always an EJ fan -- but became convinced after his final two seasons he was clearly a 2, and not a 1). There were some that said that Tharpe might have just functioned better with a veteran team -- maybe a good observation.

From a basketball perspective, this is incredibly good news. This is a simple recognition of Tharpe's poor play and that our other options are better. Sometimes guys don't develop. It happens. Tharpe's defense was a killer. This move eliminates a possible locker room distraction -- senior sitting and potentially pouting. It also signals that Graham may be on the way in. Again, this is terrific news on the basketball front.

From a personal perspective, it is horribly sad news. The last thing we want is a guy who has been her three seasons, a Jayhawk surely to the bone, leaving. Seems like a very nice young man. I'm sad for him. But with each closing door another one will surely open. Hope he finds the right fit.

@icthawkfan316 "He took a team to the elite 8 in...2011 I believe, and was absolutely robbed as the officials all but handed the game to Duke. To this day that is probably the worst officiated game I've ever witnessed (and I really don't like Drew, so I'm 100% certain there is no bias on my part in saying that!)."

Completely agree. Remember the game well. Fueled the Duke conspiracy theories. I thought the officiating bordered on criminal .. meaning I think it was pretty obvious that other factors were in play.

If Lucas or Mickelson or Traylor play really well, that will be much more satisfying than the roller coaster ride that Turner would give us. Don't get me wrong, with our current roster composition, I'd gladly take Turner. But now that he's a Longhorn, we can focus on our guys. We need just one of those three to really step up -- really need one to step up? Did I say really, really need one to step up?

I go with Lucas. Steps up to the challenge.

The only thing that really concerns me heading into next season?

In announcer voice --- "Starting at guard, a 5'11" senior, number 10, Naadir Tharpe"

By the way, when I first saw the headline of this post, I was thinking "Scarlett Johansson." Not that I was disappointed or anything, but I think it was a little misleading ....

@Hawk8086 An optimist and a realist all in one paragraph.

@ralster @justanotherfan - I really think Graham would be a nice add, and I have to admit that is nearly solely because 1) His ranking went up to #36, and 2) UVA and NCSU are strongly pursuing him. This isn't a kid I had ever really looked at or considered.

As much as anything, I'm interested in what happens playing time wise if Graham shows up. We know Self will stick with 4 main perimeter players, with a 5th getting scraps. Selden, Oubre .. then what?

I can't imagine CF sitting now. I have a tough time imagining Mason not being in the rotation. I have a tough time believing Self benches a senior. I can't believe that Greene won't get significant PT. And hard to believe White stays if he thinks he's going to be on the bench again. Even if Graham doesn't show up, there aren't enough minutes to go around, even if Self plays a five man perimeter rotation.

@ralster Checkmate. Ok, I'll stop talking about playing MU ... I think I'll just be quiet now ....

@icthawkfan316 Although we disagree on this particular topic -- and I acknowledge that yours is likely the more rational position -- we share an unabridged dislike, or hate, for all things MU. Beautifully written.

And did I hear that MU hired a woman as their head men's basketball coach? The first openly gay football player, now this. Wow.

@justanotherfan What is interesting, of course, is that KU has played Colorado and was set up to play A&M in KC, but won't play MU

@JayhawkRock78's comment about the Big 10 is interesting. I personally think MU got played by the Big 10, who was after NU all along. MU's open courting of the Big 10 got the whole realignment mess moving, thus putting NU in play. MU looked silly in the entire process, claiming academic alignment and all of that garbage. Then the Big 10 said no thanks. And MU went to the SEC, for academic alignment, I presume.

@drgnslayr Remember the Oubre quote -- saying that Self told him that he'd come in and take Wiggins' spot? Sounded like a guarantee to me the way it was phrased. I don't know though. My guess is that Self is pretty artful in how he says things, and how he might qualify his statements. But I doubt telling Oubre that he might play behind Brannen Greene would do the trick.

@drgnslayr Wonder if any of the OADs will enjoy "Wiggins Rules" ... you know, when you throw the ball away, fail to hustle down the court, fail to dive on the floor for a ball, etc., and get to stay in the game as a freshman (this seemed to happen many times before the conference season, though Self did bench him one game for a long stretch -- just seemed like Wiggins got a much, much longer leash early).

I've always felt that we should play MU. It was a terrific rivalry that excited our fan base. Most say that the greatest regular season home game or road game was something MU related.

We have chosen to take that rivalry away. I know MU left, but they are willing to play. So it is our choice. I would much rather play MU than go to Colorado, or have Georgetown at home.

Truly a case of cutting off your nose, to spite your face.

@KansasComet Seriously, what is your problem here? Do you feel the need to twist my words because you don't like what you read? I didn't call any kid incompetent, did I? Read what I wrote. You can create whatever narrative you want. I said, once again, "However, if our personnel are so incompetent at man that to have a chance to win a national championship in a particular season, we have to go zone primarily, then we should."

I can't help you if you refuse comprehend that.

You said above, that I didn't address, the following:
"Is it right to say "I don't want Wiggins", and then say "forget everything bad I said about Wiggins", only to flip again when the end result is not realized? That's not cool. "

I don't follow - I've been pretty consistent. I don't like presumed OADs. Generally, I don't want them here. I like Wiggins personally, he's a great kid, and I was very impressed with him. I have written about both topics. I think you can dislike the concept of presumed OADs, but like the person. Is that hard to understand? Not only that, but I have defended Wiggins' performance against Stanford. I have no idea where you're coming from.

Again, I'm looking for a defense of coach Self's strategy and scheme against Stanford. You apparently aren't interested in offering that defense. I would love to hear it. Your response is basically that we missed shots, yet you ignore what Self said about our "shots" and what Wiggins said about having guys in his face the entire time.

I do respect your opinion but I don't understand your fixation here.

@KansasComet - I do understand your point of view. This was a horribly bad defensive team. I wish I could dress it up.

And I wish I could convince you that it is a coach's job to strategize and scheme to put guys in positions to succeed, and that strategy and scheming leads directly to outcomes. Most of the time, all teams have highly skilled players. Coaches can make the difference.

You say -- "Does it do anyone any good to complain about lack of a zone defense in late April? I doubt it. By now Coach Self has moved on to next year's team like he should."

I'm sorry, I suppose. I kind of thought this stuff, the debate, the discussion, the interaction, was enjoyable for most here (including you). @konkeyDong and a couple others had asked me to post what I would do specifically. That's what I did.

And respectfully, coach Self should not move on. Coach Self should lose sleep at night analyzing why his teams have lost in March, and then take corrective action to fix it, whatever that is.

I suggest that there is no evidence that Self has changed anything substantive in the last five seasons. It's system, system, system. That system has been good for 10 Big 12 titles and much, much success. Great credit is due. That system has largely failed in the NCAA tournament given the roster talent, in my opinion. Scrutiny is thus justified.

Holy crap .. look at the basketball IQ in this room. I read the posts above of @ralster, @drgnslayr, @jaybate, @icthawkfan316, @crimsonorblue22, @Jayhawk12, @nuleafjhawk, @truehawk93, @VailHawk, and yourself -- it makes me think. It increases my basketball IQ. It challenges the way I watch games.

So I'll probably engage this stuff until tip-off next season.

@KansasComet if you fall back on missed shots as the reason for a loss, you can do that every loss. We lost to UNI because we missed shots. VCU too. Bradley? Yep. Bucknell? Of course. The converse must thus be true. The only reason we beat Memphis was that we made shots.

Self has defined his defense by their field goal percentage defense before. That assumes that shots are contested. Contested shots are different than open shots. Against Stanford, is it even debatable that we had very few open looks? Why were we faced with a situation where we got so few open looks?

You focus on me saying "so incompetent." This is the context -- "However, if our personnel are so incompetent at man that to have a chance to win a national championship in a particular season, we have to go zone primarily, then we should."

The point is to illustrate that if our man defense is so bad that we can't win a title with it, shouldn't we explore alternatives? Wasn't that the case this season?

I admire your defense of Self and all things KU. And you're right, if we make more shots, we probably win. I just think that it goes a bit deeper than that, that's all.

Two main items:

1. I have not suggested that we go to zone primarily as an overall defensive philosophy. However, if our personnel are so incompetent at man that to have a chance to win a national championship in a particular season, we have to go zone primarily, then we should. I said it back in late November. In the last 11 or 12 seasons, no team had given up as many points per game as KU and won a national championship other than UNC in 2005 and 2009 (I went off defensive ppg ranking to take into account rule interpretation changes). As some of you may recall, I advocated a change offensively to begin the tourney because, with such a poor defensive team, we had little chance to advance unless we simply outscored opponents (pace of game, etc.). I just ask that Self include zone as many other coaches do in his approach, much like he did in 2008 when we won the title. Other coaches find time; we can find time. Other coaches use it -- heck, Calipari changed the entire momentum of the NC game shifting to zone.

2. Please, folks, don't live under the delusion that "missed bunnies" were the reason we lost to Stanford. This is a red herring. Don't believe that it was out of Self's control. I've posted on this before. Coach Self, after the Stanford game, said that most shots were contested and that the "The majority of them we missed, length really affected us."

Again, we can say we missed shots. But it is a coach's job to use scheme and strategy to get open shots. Look at what Wiggins said:

This from a KU sports article - “Wherever I went I saw three people. They were keying in on me,” said Wiggins, who, like the rest of his teammates, struggled against Stanford’s 1-3-1 and 2-3 zones. He was guarded by 6-7 Josh Huestis the times the Cardinal played man. "Whenever I went right, I saw three Stanford guys. Whenever I went left I saw three Stanford guys. That’s no excuse. You are supposed to find different ways to score and different ways to get your teammates involved. I failed to do that tonight.”

Wiggins didn't fail. Coach Self failed. Dawkins kicked his ass. The brilliance of Johnny Dawkins was nothing more than he looked at what other teams did to beat us, added his personal twist based on his personnel, and put his team in a position to win.

Somehow, not only was Wiggins locked down, but our bigs had their shots contested too.

Self with the patented excuse after Stanford: “It’s a little bit different pressure,” said Self, who fell to 7-2 in round of 32 games. “We’re a young team, and we certainly played young.” Of course, UK was young too.

Another link about our stagnant offense, and another observer noting how Stanford's zone stopped Wiggins.

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2014/3/23/5539692/andrew-wiggins-march-madness-2014-stanford ↗

It is simply a cop out to say that our shots didn't fall, and to defend Self as if he had nothing to do with it makes no sense in the face of the evidence. Ask yourself, what did coach Self do to help KU, strategically and schematically, to win vs. Stanford?

One thing - using the press, finally, at the 10 minute mark.

I say finally because Stanford didn't have a point guard. No, not like us -- they didn't have a solid primary ballhandler. But Self waited until the 10 minute mark to press?

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

This is not arm chair quarterbacking. This is simple. It is something that your local high school coach would exploit.

And before you give Self more of a pass, remember, he chose to start Naadir Tharpe vs. Stanford. Let that sink in.

@KansasComet I had asked "Does Coach Self get credit for the successes? Do you credit him for the 2008 title?"

You had said yes, he put the team together.

I then responded by asking if he gets credit for scheme, strategy, etc.

What I mean is, wouldn't he then get the blame too for failures? It's legit to say he shares the blame, right?

I have not seen anyone dispute that Self got outcoached vs. Stanford. It happens. Sometimes getting outcoached is having the wrong personnel on the floor. Sometimes not adjusting. Against Stanford, Self permitted Stanford to execute its game plan without any real strategic interference. Best he can do is try to improve like everyone else in life.

@jayhawk12 "Our defense was not good last season, but it wasn't the initial penetration per se that hurt."

We are not on the same page. That statement ignores the entire season. You conclude the problem was that "We were terrible stopping what happened after the initial penetration."

Penetration creates opportunity, passes, getting fouled. EJ, Taylor, even McLemore were much better in stopping penetration. CF and Mason were better than Tharpe. You simply can't expose your post players to having to bail out your point guard who can't stop penetration. You get fouled up -- see Black. Many of those were after Tharpe's guy got in the lane. If you want to try and explain away that, then I'm sorry, it's hard to discuss it. You ask any coach what's more important, he'll say stopping the penetration in the first place. You will have a certain % of times when there is penetration of course, but you can't give it up over and over. When you do you are creating too many opportunities. It's hoops 101.

I read your last paragraph and it reeks of "apologist." With that approach, you can explain away everything. I say very firmly that the Embiid injury means nothing .. zero .. when playing Stanford. We should beat Stanford in that situation. Period. But we got outcoached, plain and simple. Dawkins had the superior game plan. His defenders contested nearly every shot, as Self conceded. We did not have an answer to get open shots. Game, set, match. You are right, "we should have beaten Stanford." To fall back on the Embiid injury is embarrassing, to be honest.

No Embiid vs. Florida, or another stout team? Sure. Makes sense. Not Stanford.

@ralster You are right on point with your question: "But my only question is this: Could the lack of execution, especially the defensive fail-jobs by Naadir and Ellis be a logic error in our supposition that "the system is bad" or "needs revision"?"

I am not suggesting that man to man is a "system fail." With the 2013-14 Jayhawks, man to man defense netted a subpar result.

The fail-jobs by Tharpe and Ellis lead to the conclusion that the system has to be more flexible. If you have square pegs, it is a "system fail" to continue to pound them into round holes. That is really my conclusion.

I simply suggest that Self open his mind to the possibility that strict man to man is not the only answer all of the time.

However, I do disagree with your statement: "We do kick out for 3att often enough to have decent 3att for most games. Clearly he has NOT told players to NOT shoot."

Self plainly has told players not to shoot. Ever see Greene turn down an open look three? Many times. Why? Because it was early in the shot clock. A trained dog on a leash. Do the wrong thing, you get yanked -- like a dog on a leash. Pretty soon, you are skiddish and you won't think of doing it. Self wants the three point shot to be a later option to getting a "better" shot. The "feed the post" mantra. You don't disagree with that, right?

@Crimsonorblue22 Right, Florida pressed, and slipped back into a 1-3-1 much of the game.

I do think we improved vs. the zone. Marginally vs. the press.

See -- 1-3-1. Wigs up top, allows you to hide your point guard on the back line or weak wing side depending on match-up. Fit us to a T. Right on there.

Heck, Self likes the 3-2. Go Tharpe/Wigs/Selden up top, bigs in back. Trap wing and box. Matchup on all high % shooters. Immediate closouts everywhere. Roll behind closeout. Has to be better than 150th or whatever in points per game allowed. Has to be.

How many breakout dunks does Wigs have from up top, middle on a 3-2?

Here's an article I saw on Steve Fisher switching to a 1-3-1 zone this season when needed -- as firm a man to man guy as there is. Its a great commentary on flexibility. This is all that I would ask of coach Self, or of any coach.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/Mar/09/sdsu-basketball-zone-defense-fisher-hutson/ ↗

@Crimsonorblue22 I thought you were referring to Scott Drew's inability to coach a competent zone D, as @icthawkfan316 referred to (and as has become legendary).

Many teams played zone against us -- it destroyed us early, Villanova, Florida, Colorado, etc. Then we saw it quite a bit during the league season. I recall Texas killing us with zone at Austin. They mixed it up.

@KansasComet But Self gets no credit for strategy, scheme, leadership, etc.? I would say that he gets a huge amount of credit for that.

On luck, just throw that out the window. The bigger your sample size, the less it means. Luck is just probabilities and possibilities. And many times, you create your own luck. When your sample size increases, it's a discernible pattern.

Trey Burke's shot was lucky by many accounts. But if we foul before he shoots, are we victims of a lucky shot? Same with Calipari and Chalmers' shot. You create luck many, many times, or situations where luck can beat you.

@Crimsonorblue22 That's pretty funny .. the one time we played good zone offense was against Baylor. You see cause and effect, I'm sure.

Personally, I think we could have played sufficiently effective man to man if Tharpe just never played. He was the worst defensive player I have ever seen at KU under Self, in the second half of the season.

@KansasComet Does Coach Self get credit for the successes? Do you credit him for the 2008 title?