Man to man is what they play in the NBA and if you look at all the KU players that have gone to the League, defense is what keeps them there; Wiggins is the only player I can think that is offensively minded, although his defense is also excellent and would be enough to keep him there.
JayHawkFanToo
13427 posts
A few post game comments:
I don't know who had the final decision on the player selection but this team did not have the right players and no chemistry.. It has been proven time and time again that teams composed of players that do not play together regularly do not develop a a cohesive team; VanVleet should have been left in the team with Baker as they were the closest thing to having a back court that could play together. I wonder how much of a role "sports politics" played in the player selection.
Brown is ball hog and volume shooter. Yes he had 25 point but that was from shooting 8 of 20 and 2 of 9 form 3; in comparison Baker was a very efficient 5 of 7 and 1 of 2 from 3 for 15 points. Whoever thinks that Melo Trimble makes Maryland a contender is dreaming; he did not do a think to prove that he is anything other than an average player.
Rebounding was non existent. Team USA was outrebounded 50 to 29 and had only 9 offensive rebound compared to Canada's 17; Randolph (who played well) had 6 rebounds and no other player had more than 3. As I posted before, I am glad Tarczewski did not come to KU; can’t score, can’t rebound, can’t guard even shorter players…and had measly 2 rebounds and 7 point in 25 minutes of play Obviously we had no inside game and one has to wonder why Rico Suave was left of the team; he would have helped big time.
Obviously I have no information on who selected the 20 players that were invited to the initial camp and who made the decision on the final 12; if Few was the primary person in charge, the he bears the brunt of the responsibility, if not then the entire process needs to be reviewed and maybe like the the WUG team, the Pan Am team should be based on one school...we know it worked well in the WUG.
On a related note and since it will affect KU down the road, Jamal Murray is the real deal and I bet the squid has a smile from ear to ear today. Even the announcers kept saying that he mostly drives to his left and yet no attempt was made to force him to go to his right (as @Crimsonorblue22 mentioned)...either bad scouting, bad coaching or both.
Murray is the real deal and the US had no answer for him. I believe he had 22 points, all of them in the 4th quarter...I bet the squid was drooling...
Hard to believe that a "money" player like Langford played only 7 minutes at the start of the game and sat the rest. I like Few and he would be in my short list of coaches to replace Self someday, but the coaching decisions today were...to be kind...questionable???
Indeed, thanks for the assist, I was just thinking about the offensive areas which are Frankamp's forte. Defense is not even close.
Frankamp better than Devonte? In what planet?
Much like Green, Frankamp is a one trick pony, i.e. a spot up shooter. Devonte is much better at creating his own shot and shot .393 from 2 and .425 from 3 in his freshman year compared to .344 and .313 by Frankamp, also in his Freshman year. Devonte is a better rebounder, passer, dribbler and driver than Frankamp and a couple of inches taller to boot. It's not even close. Remember that Frankamp left KU because he did not believe he could beat largely unknown Graham...he was right.
The Wayne Selden we saw at the WUG is at least as good or better than Baker and with a much higher ceiling. I am willing to call this one a draw.
How about Anton Grady, a transfer from powerhouse Cleveland State and the powerful Horizon Conference? He will be a good player in the MVC but in the Big 12, or more specifically at KU, he would ride the pine, where Diallo is a projected OAD that was the MVP of two All-Star games. Yes, Grady has more experience and is a decent player but with few games under his belt, Diallo's aestheticism and skills will easily zoom past Grady.
Bench: KU >>>>> WSU.
Game, set , match.
See my post above...
Murray played great, Canada won, and the USA team plays for the Bronze tomorrow. :( :( :(
WSU lost Tekele Cotton and Darious Carter and the only significant player they added in addition to their lower ranked freshmen is Frankamp. They have seniors Baker, Vleet and Wessel coming back, so they will have more experience for their 3 players and maybe a little less talent overall.
KU lost Alexander and Oubre. New players Diallo, Bragg and Vick more than compensate for the losses. Greatly improved Selden and Mickelson and hopefully Svi as wel as all the returning players make KU a much improved team and a very deep one as well.
WSU will have team comparable to last year's and the year after that it will come back to reality when their top 3 players leave. KU will have a significantly better team than last year and also better that WSU.
Murray is got to be the luckiest player, he just made to highly improbably baskets in the last few seconds to put Canada up by 4 with 1 minute left...
No rebounding whatsoever for team USA, I am surprised they are even in this game.
Overtime...and I am posting to myself... :(
I am glad Tarczewski did not come to KU; can't score, can't rebound, can't guard even shorter players...
Baker is playing well...I would have Langford in, he is the type of player you want at the end.
11-2 run by Canada to start the 4th quarter.
To add to my previous post, until well into the 70's, basketball exposure was miniscule compared to the wide world exposure that the game has now. This is likely the primary reason why older player are hardly known while younger players are known and have a world-wide following.
Late night is October 9, 2015 at 12:00 AM so we have 77 days to go...
Agreed.
Nothing succeeds like success - Sir Arthur Helps, in Realmah, 1868...and Billy Eugene "Bill" Self, Jr...:)
I agree with you except in the part about most fans picking Wilt. Let's face it, most fans under 40 years old don't know who Wilt was and to them Jordan is it...amazing that Jordan, 12 years after retiring, is still the biggest name in basketball worldwide and in no small measure because he still is the biggest shoe endorser ever...and it is not even close.
The members of this board are not a good indicator of Wilt's popularity and/or greatness because, as Jayhawk fans, we are well acquainted and big fans of THE man. Like I mentioned in a previous post, while reading this thread I browsed through 20-30 rankings of the best players ever from all types of publication and I don't recall one that had Wilt at the top; most have Jordan, although there are also a number of articles that question Jordan as the top player and present, in some cases, compelling arguments why he is not the top player ever.
In the end, it is a highly subjective opinion depending on how much you value some attributes and what weight you assign to the different stats. To most of us in this forum, Wilt will be, if not the top player at least in the top 3 to top 5 group; to the younger generation, he is probably not even top 10.
Spot on on VanVleet as I mentioned it my previous post.
Few is a good coach and I would be interested to know how much control he has over who is invited and who makes the final cut. Unlike KU where Coach Self has complete authority, the Pan American team is run by a committee and I would not be surprise if the committee has the final say in who makes the team and who gets playing time.
Brazil and Dominican Re[public on a tight game and tied 45-45 in the third quarter...
I agree with yours assessment but when you look at overall stats, keep in mind that Oscar Robertson averaged 25.7 points, 9.5 assists and 7.5 rebounds per game over the 14 years of his career; he is the only player to average a triple double for an entire season, a mark that will likely never be matched. Wilt himself averaged 30.1 points, 22.9 rebounds and 4.4 assists over a 16 year career and one year, he decided to lead the League in assists and he did...in addition to scoring 24.3 ppg; no other center has ever led the League in assists. In my opinion,. both are better number than LeBron. Wilt owns more records than any other player and it is not even close. These are just the first two players that come to mind and there are probably others, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Jabbar come to mind
Having said that, at 12 seasons LeBron still has at least 4 -5 season left...or 8 more...if like Kobe he plays 20 seasons, so he has plenty of time to improve his already impressive stats..
It is very difficult to take a group of essentially disparate players, regardless of how good they are, and expect them to develop chemistry in two weeks. I would have liked to see a VanVleet-Baker back court since those players know each other very well; I don't believe the team even played an exhibition game prior to the games. Even the Senior USA team with all the top pros gets together for extended periods of time and play many exhibition games prior to competitions. The teams from the other countries are a comprised of athletes that know each other well and have been playing together for many years.
This is not a new occurrence; it has happened before even to the senior USA team when it did not practice together enough and it has happened often to the many junior teams that were put together by throwing a bunch or top ranked players for a couple of weeks and then sending them to compete against real "teams."
This is the reason why the organization in charge of selecting teams for the WUG chose to base the basketball team on one school, KU, and it worked out well. Hopefully the USA team can get it together and beat Canada and get a second shot at Brazil.
USA loses to Brazil 93-83. Langford had 17 points in 29 minutes and shot 4 of 6 and 3 of 4 from 3 and 8 of 8 from the FT line; he also drew 7 fouls. He was the best player for the US team. The team advanced to the final four and plays Canada tomorrow and if the win, they will get another shot with Brazil who plays and will likely beat the Dominican Republic.
Maybe Coach Few should call Coach Self and ask on how you beat the Canadians...:D
The improved version of Ron Baker...
Jordan used to get the same criticism and he was a perennial All-Defensive-Team and Defensive POY one year, but people just thought of him not as a defender but as scorer and ball hog...which he also was..:(
The court side seats are reserved for the big time donors and there is no way KU would give that income up. I would guess that the better seats are between $5 kand $10K per season...maybe more.
Bryant is at the end of his career while LeBron still has a few year to surpass Bryant...and I like Bryant a lot more than I do LeBron.
As far as defense...LeBron has consistently finished in the top 5 in the vote for Defensive POY and twice he has been the runner up. He has also been in the NBA All-defensive-team ↗ just about every year. He is currently the only player in the NBA that routinely defends all 5 positions. LeBron is not just a good defender he is one of the top defensive players in the League, as the vote for Defensive POY and inclusion in the All-defensive team appear to indicate.
I forgot the 1 hr time difference and when I switched to ESPN2 the game had already started and Kevin was playing. I notice that Keith has a new hairdo, not the short hair of old but a longer in the middle and swept back look...is how I would describe it. KY still sports the 'fro.
See my reply to @elpoyo.
By the way, when you say that: "Wigs increasingly appears to have been sand bagging at KU." In my opinion, you are not being fair to Wiggins and you diminish what he accomplished at KU. Wiggins did exactly what Coach Self asked him to do and he did it well and you never heard him complain or second guess the coaching staff. He had the best freshman season of any player ever at KU, better than even Danny Manning's freshman season....that is quite a feat, don't you think. Obviously we disagree on this so there is no need to reply, let's each of us have our own opinion and move on.
Please note that I wrote...
"At this time, Michael Jordan is probably the top player."
This is by no means a statement of fact or even an endorsement, but simply and observation based on what the prevailing opinion is. Also, the basketball rules were still in flux at the time, as the game had just started to take off. Had Jabbar or Olajuwon or another similar player would have come along at that time instead of Wilt, chances are the rules would have been changed as well. This by no means diminishes what Wilt accomplished and he should, by all means, be in the conversation for top player.
Again, we all have our own opinions and as such, they are not right or wrong. I am not saying that Wilt is or isn't the best player of all time, frankly, I don't know who I would pick. All I am saying is that the prevailing opinion (and by not means absolute) is that Jordan is at the top. Retired players can no longer do anything to change that, so the only active player with a chance of doing enough to overtake Jordan appears to be LeBron. That's all.
Ah, yes...and if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle. Way too many hypothetical situations and assumptions. My point was simply that "development-wise," Wiggins ended up in a much better situation with the Wolves than he would have been with the Cavs. I am sure that we can go back and forth on this issue and probably will end up in the same place...agree to disagree?
IMHO, a Senior Frank Mason is better than any OAD PG than we could get. Keep in mind that the great majority of recent great OAD PGs were drafted more for their potential than what they actually did on the court. I have no doubt that Senior Mason's production would be greater than that of any OAD PG KU could get..
I am with @Crimsonorblue22 on this one. At Cleveland, Wiggins would not have had as much playing time as he had last season with the Wolves and he would have not developed nearly as much as he did.
You make a point and then immediately contradict it. You talk about James not winning a title without and all-star team and then you have Wilt at #1...How many titles did Wilt win? Two, the same as LeBron...and Mario Chalmers...and they are still playing with a chance of getting more; Bill Russel has 11.
The knock on Chamberlain is that he had great individual stats but his teams always lost. He played against Bill Russel and the Celtic 8 playoff series and each time he had better stats than Russell but the Celtics won 7 of the 8 series. Makes you think, doesn't it? This is one of the reason why many rank Russel ahead of Chamberlain and cite that he made his teams better.
At this time, Michael Jordan is probably the top player but with a good run in the remainder of his playing days, LeBron can catch him. I don't care much for LeBron as an individual but as a player, he is not only great but he is an athletic freak as well. He is the only player since Magic that can play all 5 position competently.
I just browsed over several "top xx NBA players of all time" rankings and none has Wilt at #1, many don't even have him in the tops 5. As much as you and I like Wilt, the rest of the world does not seem to thinks he is the best of all time.
but....the trades were not the reason why they didn't win, like it has been implied in many posts, injuries were the real reason and that is something that cannot be planned. Look at Oklahoma, they had assembled a Championship contender and then injuries to Ibaka, Westbrooke, most of all Durant and even Collison, made them into an also run.
Th trade worked out well for Wiggins, who is with a team where he was given lots of playing time to move up the learning curve with little or no pressure; a perfect spot for a talented yet inexperienced player. Had he stayed in Cleveland and much like Mario in Miami, he would have been at the receiving end of LeBron's bad moods. No question the LeBron is the best player in the world right now, and when he is done he will be top 3 of all-time...maybe even the best, but as a teammate he is very...shall we say...high-maintenance?
The USA team is destroying Puerto Rico, 87-52 at the end of the third period. The USA team beat Venezuela comfortably last night although the team did not play well. BTW, Pitino is coaching Puerto Rico and Kevin Young Started for Puerto Rico, Game is on ESPN2 live.
Lots of positive comments and references to KU; I don't believe I have heard other schools cited nearly as much as KU.
Game switched to ESPN3 so they can show the Cuba-Puerto Rico Volley Ball game on ESPN2,,,
This is why I did not attempt to use the actual time of each individual possession but the number of possessions per game which should provide very good approximation of what the average possession time is since it accounts/averages for the short possessions, i.e. turnovers/fast breaks with the longer possessions.
What is telling is that even when the difference in possession between the team with most and team with the least is 21 possessions per game, the actual difference in time per possession is only 5 seconds.
I agree. I love Mason and he is a superior college player. He is faster, passes and rebounds better and shoots and defends better than most every college PG. However, in the NBA every PG is as fast or faster, passes equally well or better and can shot the ball from outside and defend as well or better than Mason. In addition, except for one or two players, every other PG has a height advantage over Mason. Just because a player dominates in college it does not necessarily translate to the NBA. Remember co-players of the year Morrison and Redick who dominated college basketball one year? one lasted a couple of seasons and the other has been pretty much a journeyman "sniper-type" specialty player and not close to a star.
Having said that, if an undersized PG can make it to the League, I believe Mason would be that player. Realistically, Mason will be a borderline first round-second round pick after 4 years at KU, and will probably be a backup PG as you indicated...but what do I know...I didn't think Stephen Curry would be a star either and I would be very happy if much like like Curry, Mason proves me wrong.
At this point Perry is really not a "stretch 4" even in college, and if he makes it to the NBA he will play SF and not the stretch 4. Stretch 4s are 6-10 or 6-11 players that can hit consistently from the 3. Perry is just not that kind of player.
Yes, but...can you think of anyone, as far as you can remember, that went from unranked in the pre-season mock drafts to #1? I can't. I am not saying it is not possible, I am saying it is highly unlikely, considering that he will likely not even start for KU. At this point, I see Bragg as solid 2 year player...but I could be wrong
Fear the beard??? :D
I posted the UK schedule before and they do have a very tough one. Unlike last year when KU was only playing its 2nd game of the year and UK had played a number of top notch international teams., this time around, both team will have plenty of experience coming into this game. I really wish we could have played them very early in the season and have the same advantage they had last season.
I don't see the new clock making a big difference. According to this link, ↗ the two teams with the lowest average number of possession per game are Denver ar 59.4 and American at 59.0; this is a combined 118.4 possession per game or 20.3 second per possession. The two teams with the highest average number of possession per game in Div I are VA Military at 80.1 and NW State at 76.0 or a combined 156.1 possession per game or an average of 15.4 seconds per possession; these are the two extremes and it would be fair to estimate that the average time per possession for all teams is somewhere in the 17-18 second range, so. going from 35 seconds to 30 second will really not make that much of a difference. If I had the time and inclination I could calculate teh standard deviation and I would not be surprised if 98% or more of all possession are under 30 seconds.
I will have to politely disagree with you both. We live in a world of "here and now" and "what have you done for me lately" and Love was the present and Wiggins is the future. Unlike College teams, a NBA owner with deep pockets can build a championship caliber team with smart trades, upgrades and free agents and most teams use pretty much the same business model (with financial restrictions) to build a team for the upcoming season not a few years down the road. The only team in the NBA that has officially stated that they have long term plan to build the team is the 76ers and to a lesser extent the Knicks...how is that working out for them? Most would say, not well at all.
There is almost universal agreement that with a healthy Love and Kyrie, the Cavaliers would have beaten the Warriors. The one thing that money can't but is unforeseen injuries; it happens and changes all plans at all levels...look at KU, with a healthy Embiid KU is a Final Four team, but he got injured and KU was left bare inside resulting in a quick exit.
When a player changes schools/transfers then it becomes an eligibility issue, right?
I see what you are saying and you are absolutely correct; however, my poorly stated point was...wouldn't it be better to honor the real rather than the fictional team?
Any thing is possible but Bragg going #1 next year is pretty unlikely since he is not even considered a top 30 player in any of the 2016 mock drafts. He would have to make a jump of historic proportions to end up as #1..
Again, possible? Yes, probable? No.
The only role that the NCAA has in scholarship is limiting the number of available scholarship (13 for men's basketball); it is up to the individual schools to determine to whom they give the scholarships.
The NCAA simply rules on eligibility, i.e. it determines if a player is eligible to play college sports and it is independent of scholarships. Once a player has exhausted or permanently lost eligibility he/she can no longer play college sports...he can continue to attend college but not play NCAA sanctioned sports. He/she can however play Collegiate Club Sports ↗ since they are not sanctioned by the NCAA but the have their own set of rules and eligibility requirements.
Embiid lost his eligibility permanently (when he turned pro) and he is no longer eligible to play NCAA sanctioned sports. Period.
I think you misread my post. I said:
For example, if Embiid would have been determined to be unable to play in the NBA because of a bad wheel and before the draft,
Yes, I understand that Austin could be potentially dangerous. But, once again, how about if Embiid was told, you have a weak bones structure...or whatever, and if you try to play further you risk losing your foot altogether...before the draft and he was never even drafted?
In both cases, the end result is the same, talented players unable to compete at the next level because of a medical issue. I can think of several players recently that had to quit playing college sports when they were found to have career ending congenital conditions. While Austin is a very sympathetic figure, because of his previously revealed eyesight issue, he is by no means the only potential prospect that had to quit playing sports because of medical reasons; it happens more often that we know. In fact. some players have actually died while playing (Hank Gathers comes to mind); Austin just happens to be a high profile one.
No. The players you mentioned were selected just not good enough to make/stay in the League but are otherwise healthy. I am talking about the college players that, much like Austin, are unable to move forward with pro careers because of medical conditions. For example, if Embiid would have been determined to be unable to play in the NBA because of a bad wheel and before the draft, should the NBA offer him a guaranteed job as well? How about a less visible but still potential NBA prospect that suffers a career ending injury while in college?
Where do you draw the line? Again, the NBA is a semi-private enterprise that is free to do as it wants; however, since like all professional sports it enjoys a de-facto government endorsed monopoly, its public policy is subject to public scrutiny. Just sayin'