🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@Hawk8086

Based on what I heard contemporaneously, KU's in house attorneys decide to handle the case themselves instead of calling a firm that specialized in dealing with the NCAA. Their rationale was they knew the guys "down the road" - The NCAA was at the time located in Mission Kansas at the corner of Shawnee Mission Parkway and Nall, for those of you familiar with the area and getting ready to move to it new Headquarters on College Boulevard in Overland Park. - but it turned out the NCAA did not really care that they were next town neighbors and probably were put off that KU did not see them as good enough to warrant outside counsel..

The main allegation was that Larry Brown bought an airline ticked for Askew to see his grandmother who either was on her death bed or had just passed away. In today's environment the player would be asked to reimburse the money and may be be given a couple of games suspension, and the coach would be be given a slap on the wrist and a reprimand. The irony is that this incident prompted the NCAA to set up a program to help students in the same situation and had it happened a year or two later, the NCAA would have paid for the ticket...Askew ended up not even playing for KU. The penalty broke KU's string of consecutive appearances in the NCCA tournament and was unable to defend its Title; KU has since the once again become the program with the most current NCAA tournament appearances.

The moral of the story is that the ego of attorneys knows no limits and you should always get a second opinion.

In all fairness the charges at UCLA were valid but the ones at KU were BS, and in today's environment, would warrant maybe a slap on the wrist. He has been very good for SMU and I hope that he gets out of it with minimal damage.

@ralster

Excellent take. Marshall had what I call the "perfect storm" of players; somehow he was able to put together classes with players that overachieved over several yeas and now, the last 3 are on their last year. How do you think he will do after the last players of the group leave after the upcoming season? I know they will continue to do well in the Missouri Valley but will they stay relevant at the National levels and will they continue to be a top 20 program?

@VailHawk

Darnell Valentine was a special player. He was one of a long line of Wichita players that played at KU. I seem to remember that it came down to KU and UNC and luckily we got him. What I remember most about him is that the first time I saw him in person and in uniform (they wore the short-shorts back then) I kept thinking his thighs are bigger than my chest ...he did have huge thighs. He had a great career as a PG at KU and was named 4 time to the All-Conference team and he also was a 3 time Academic All-American. He was also selected for the 1980 Olympic team but did not get to play because of the boycott of Russia.. He is at the very top in many statistical categories and no doubt one of the better players ever at Kansas. He was selected in the first round by the NBA and had a decent but not particularly great career...maybe 10 years? and after that I believe he played for a couple of years in Europe.

As a side note, his HS Coach, Lafayette Norwood, came to KU with him as an assistant to Coach Owens and left 4 years later after Darnell graduated, and went on to coach basketball at Johnson County Community College. I believe he still teaches golf at JCCC. In his younger years, Norwood was also an outstanding basketball player in his own right.

That's it, that's all I have. Hopefully others can chime in with more details.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I did not see the part about the competition before. My point was that Fraschilla went out of his way to downplay the competition at the WUG and I believe he called inferior and yet he went on to heap praise on Baker from WSU (not that he did nor deserve the praise) and the Pan American teams...kind of makes you go hmmmm .

Yes, couple of teams at the Pan American games were good, but they looked better because the others were so mediocre. I watched just about every game that was broadcasted for both tournaments and they were only 8 teams at the Pan American Games with Brazil, Canada and USA clearly on different level than the other 5 who were at best at the level of Chile or Switzerland at the WUG. At the WUG , there were 23 teams and at least 10 were quality teams and the top 5-6 teams would certainly top 20 in the NCAA. Would Brazil beat the NCAA Champion by 30 points? I don't think so, I am not sure they would even beat them let alone by 30 points.

I don't get why Fraschilla was so intent on dismissing the WUGg and building up the Pan American Games...of course, he worked as an analyst for ESPN at the Pan American games.

P.S. Fraschilla, worked at Curry's camp in his role as the director of summer basketball for Under Armour...a veiled low blow to Adidas?

Good ad...but then I like Wiggins, Lillard and Kimmel...

@ParisHawk

Just explaining my position, not discussing Marshall. my other post on different subject all together.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I agree, Fraschilla used to be pretty good about KU but he has changed. I do like Knight though :(

@tis4tim

I did not catch the reference the first time around. That takes me back a lot of years. Good show with a good message. I remember some of the characters, Coolidge and Salami and I believe there was Hispanic player as well. If I recall correctly the High school setting was in South Central LA not Chicago, right?

@ParisHawk

The Marshall topic has been discussed ad-nauseum in this and other threads; people feel the way they do about Marshall one way or another, be that as a person or as coach, and neither is right or wrong, they are all personal opinions that we are all entitled to have.

If you read my posts on the subject, my view of Marshall is very clear and if someone else has a different opinion that is fine with me. I personally feel that additional posts on my part will not advance the discussion further as I have said all I wanted to say. If other posters feel that there is more discussion to be had and want to continue discussing Marshall, they are most welcomed to do so, and again, I have no problem whatsoever with that. Like I said. we agree to disagree and move on. to more interesting topics, preferably related to KU basketball.

@ralster

Interesting comments from Fran Fraschilla about WSU's Ron Baker...

“If he’s not first- or second-team All-American, I don’t know basketball,” Fraschilla said Sunday after providing analysis in Toronto for ESPN’s broadcasts. “He was impressive. The competition level is higher than the NCAA. It’s a very physical brand of basketball. That Brazil team would have beaten our NCAA champion by 30 points.”

As far as the competition being so much better that Brazil would have beaten the NCAA Champion by 30 points....it is just plain BS. Brazil looked good because the US team sucked. Let's faced, an 18 tear old Canadian beat the the US team and Canada out rebounded the US team by an almost a 2-1 margin; the US team had to outscore Dominican Republic 28-14 in the fourth quarter to barely win by 5...we are talking the Dominican Republic Team...embarrassing. Didn't Fraschilla post a couple of week ago the WUG was inferior competition? What is it with him lately and his dislike for KU?

@Lulufulu

Chaminade is a Division II school so, TTBOMK, it does not count against the RPI.

@Texas-Hawk-10

I am sure he will pickup some knowledge about the angles from Perry...or at least I hope he does; Ellis is fundamentally solid and one of the better players in college basketball at playing the angles.

@drgnslayr

No argument from me. I have always said that he is doing what his fan base wants and expects him to do to get KU to agree to play WSU.

@jaybate-1.0

You are taking my comments out of context and making it way, way too complicated.

From Merriam-Webster

Full Definition of PERSONALLY

1: in person

2: as a person : in personality

3: for oneself : as far as oneself is concerned

4: in a personal manner

You can have feeling about person without knowing him/her personally. I never met John Wayne but I really like him as an actor. Pete Rose is perhaps my favorite player and I like him as player a lot...most Big Red Machine fans do; however, as an individual off the field he is by all accounts not very nice man and I just don't care for him personally (see definitions 3 and 4 above). We just had thread about the best player of all time and many member indicated that they do not like LeBron (I personally don't like him) but they still respect him as a player. How many of your sports idols have you met in person? probably not many but you like them anyway, even when you have no clue how they are off the filed/court. I could not care less about Michael Jackson the person but he was one terrific entertainer and composer.

See where I am going with this?

Many posters do not like Marshall personally (see definitions 3 and 4 above) for the things he said about KU, but they can still respect him as a coach. You don't have to like a person but you can still respect him/her professionally. I don't like Marshall personally (see definitions 3 and 4 above) but I think he is a very good coach and I respect hm as such. Enough said.

I never said anything about how Marshal is or isn't at home and I could not care less. This what I said:

"If you can separate Marshall’s WSU spokesman persona from Marshall the Coach.."

I was very clearly indicating two very specific situations, one his public persona as WSU spokesman and two, the coach. I just don't see any reason why this cannot be done, as I indicated above, we do it all the time in real life.

As far as VanVleet, this from from the ESPN account of the game:

"VanVleet was driving to the rim when his elbow caught Ellis' nose, sending the Wichita native sprawling to the floor. Red droplets started sliding down his chin, and Ellis retreated to the locker room. When he returned, he had wads of cotton stuffed up his nostrils."

There was no indication that it was an intentional, premeditated or flagrant foul; in fact, VanVleet was not even called for a foul. Why do you think that Marshall should have sat VanVleet when he was not even whistled for a foul? Can you think of a coach, any coach that has sat his starting PG or any other player for the rest of the game, ...while playing in the NCAA or any other game...for a non foul? or a foul? a hard foul? even a flagrant foul? I cannot think of one...Elijah Johnson was given a flagrant one for intentionally ringing Mitch McGary "bells" and Coach Self did not bench him, right? It just does not happen.

I think this topic has been discussed as much as it can be and we need to agree to disagree and move on.

@Lulufulu

Like @Texas-Hawk-10 mentioned, the list is based on what the players did while at KU and there is no question that Danny accomplished more, including one National Title, than Wilt did. Now, if we are looking at entire careers, then yes, Wilt is at the top and Paul Pierce would be much higher.

Unfortunately, there are only 10 spots and once you get past the top 4 or 5 then you have a number of players that could be there too, including Jo Jo White who went to have a great pro career and players like Sherron did not, but when you compare what they did in college it is a lot more difficult to compare, particularly when some players played only one or two years at KU. Wiggins did not make the list, but if you look at entire careers, in a dozen years he might be at the very top.

Don't forget that Chaminade, which at the time was not even a Division I team but a NAIA team, beat #1 Virgina with Ralph Sampson in what is considered the biggest upset in college basketball ever. As a result of this game the Maui Tournament was born a couple of year later and Chaminade made it to the finals. Don't ever overlook Chaminade.

@nuleafjhawk

The Legend has brought incredible development to that area; Western Wyandotte County is now starting to resemble Johnson County. Obviously staying in Overland Park, Lenexa or Olathe give him a lot more options but he should be able to find a decent place near the Legends. Lots of new developments and subdivisions off Hwy 7 and particularly I-435 South of the river in West Shawnee and Lenexa.area which would be a short commute to the Legends (10 minutes). I live in East Olathe and I am about 25 miles from the Legends.

When it comes to show biz and grace backed up by incredible talent, no one will ever be as good as Pistol Pete in his prime.

Going into the season, the two big unknowns are Diallo and SVI; all the other players are by know pretty well known in respect to what they can or cannot do. If Diallo and Svi perform as we would like them to perform, then KU is a national contender as they represent the last two pieces in the puzzle, particularly Diallo. If they perform below expectation then all bets are off unless some of the other players step up, specially Mickelson and/or Lucas.

@jaybate-1.0

This is from Wikipedia:

Gregg Marshall era (1999-2007)

Gregg Marshall coached the Eagles from 1999–2007, engineering one of the great program turnarounds in NCAA history. He posted a 194-83 overall record during his nine-year tenure and remains Winthrop's all-time winningest coach. Marshall led the Eagles to a 104-24 conference record, six Big South season titles, and seven Big South tournament titles. Winthrop also appeared in seven NCAA Tournaments, posted six 20-win seasons, and averaged 21.5 victories per year during the Marshall Era.

So he did indeed turned around a moribund program, Winthrop is now known because of the success he had under Marshall, although is no longer nearly as good as it was under him and has not gone to the NCAA since 2010.

@JReyn @Kcmatt7 @REHawk

Marshall is a real good coach. I understand that he is not liked here because some of the comments he made about KU but you need to look at things in context. He has assembled a "perfect storm" of players and he was/is desperately trying to leverage them to gain notoriety for the program and by extension, himself, and the best way to get to the "grown up" table (for those of you that still remember that expression) is to set up a series with KU (or even KSU) and big daddy KU is just not cooperating. He was doing what his fans base wants and expects him to do. The series has little upside a lot of downside for KU and the reverse is true for WSU, so it is understandable that KU would not agree; nothing wrong with that.

I really would not call Winthrop to WSU a nearly lateral move. At Winthrop Marshall turned the program completely around and took it to the NCAA for the first time and ended up going to the dance 7 of the 9 yeas he was there (1999-2007); since he left the went o the NCAA 2 more times, the last in 2010; no question the program went down hill after he left. At Winthrop, which I wold call a lower-major, he basically did as much as it can be done with a program that size and moved to Mid-Major WSU, a school with a lot more potential. It is definitely a logical move upwards that any coach with ambition and talent would make. Remember that in 2013 he turned down the USC job that ended up going to Andy Enfield of Florida Gulf Coast deep-run-in-the-NCAA fame, and by many account also tuned down the UCLA job; that was the year he took WSU to the Final Four. So it is not that he has not had opportunities to move up, he has indeed but he has chosen to stay at WSU. As I indicated before, after this season he loses the last 3 players of that "perfect storm" and will be interesting to see if he stays to rebuild, or now that "his" players are gone, he leaves as well.

If you can separate Marshall's WSU spokesman persona from Marshall the Coach, you see a very good coach, regardless of how you feel about him personally. Keep in mind that in the last 3 seasons he has advanced farther in the NCAA than KU and has actually beaten KU in the tournament; you just don't this unless you are a superior coach. The more good teams the state has the better it is for all...now, if KSU can get back to being decent team, it would only enhance the reputation of the state as basketball hotbed. I posted stats before that show Kansas as the only state with 2 or more Division I teams the send ALL OF THEM to the dance. Not bad for a small state.

To wrap it up, I would put Marshall in the list of coaches that "could" but not necessarily "would" have done better. A lot of writing for simple conclusion...:)

@jaybate-1.0

He finished above .500 with only 6 scholarship players, none over 6'-6" - down the stretch - and advanced farther than KU the previous season (beat the team that eliminated KU) and as far as KU last season...all of that with teams with considerably less the talent than KU. The question was not about winning multiple or even one season conference or national titles, but about finishing above .500 with the team Self had. I cited one coach and you don't agree...that is fine with me.

Archie Miller. Last season he dismissed two players in December leaving him with 6 scholarship players, none taller than 6'-6" and still managed to finish second in the A10 and made it to the third round of the NCAA after having to pl;ay in the first round play-in game.

The year before he took Dayton to the Elite 8 after beating ranked Ohio State, Syracuse and Stanford...yes, that Stanford that beat KU, before finally losing to top ranked Florida. Archie Miller is one of the better up-and-coming coaches in the country.

@drgnslayr

...and when Chris Paul does not time the screen correctly...he flops...:)

@EdwordL

I speculated Cliff told the family he thought he would have to come back for a second year, which caused his mom to tell him about the loan.

This is a very interesting take. I guess we can hypothesize further and advance the theory that:

Cliff told his family that he would be likely coming back top KU for second year and his family then told him about the loan which was then made public so KU would not be penalized...

Or, Cliff told his family that he would be likely coming back top KU for second year and his family made the loan public to force Cliff to the NBA and not back to KU; obviously a more cynical view but not all that unrealistic.

Also, like others have pointed out, it is very unlikely that anyone would lend money based on a third party potential income and without the consent of said third party. What seems more feasible is that Cliff's family was counting on Cliff being a OAD and the family cash cow, and when it looked like it was not going to happen in the time frame they had planned, then the wheel came off the gravy train.

I guess it is sign of the times and the society in which we live where some parents expect an 18 or 19 year old to become the family's main source of income. Pretty sad actually.

@sfbahawk @Texas-Hawk-10

I wholly agree with both of you, I do concede that during some periods, offense was emphasized but by no means defense was not played. Like you said, many fans were tuned off a while back and don't watch the NBA enough to see the sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle changes. There is no question in my mind that in the last few years defense has been emphasized more; maybe not to the level of offense but by a lot anyway. The raw talent in the NBA is head an shoulders above college and I always get a chuckle when people think that a team like Kentucky with all its stars could beat some team in the NBA...every player in the NBA was star in college and most ride the pine in the NBA.

@dylans @Crimsonorblue22

I believe this is the article ↗ you both were referring. Like I said, Coach Self told him he had been dealt a bad hand by the NCAA and others, but in the interview it sure sounded like he was referring to KU. A respected analyst like Bilas saw it that way, so it is not a stretch to assume that most people saw it that way too. In all fairness I thought the link to the article should be cited as it provides context.

There is no question that KU was surprised by the entire incident and as soon as it was informed by the NCAA of the issue, it immediately sat Alexander. According to this article ↗, KU heard from the NCAA on a Saturday February 28th at noon and Cliff was not allowed to suit up against Texas the same day which had 4:00 PM tip-off time and he ended up not playing again. That is some quick and smart action by management to protect the program. There is ZERO evidence that KU had any prior knowledge or participation before that day.

@approxinfinity

Good point. However in all fairness, Montrezl played 3 full years at an elite program where Cliff did not even play a full season. No question that Cliiff should have stayed at least one extra year and he pretty much admitted that. Too bad that he had to leave early and start his pro career at an disadvantage. It is a fact that un-drafted players with low cost contracts are not given the same opportunity to develop as the high priced prospects; heck, even TRob that was top 5 prospect did not get a real opportunity and was shipped from team to team in a cost saving effort...hopefully Philly will give him a real shot.

@brooksmd

The NBA has changed in the last few years and a lot more defense is being played and players are actually bragging when they are selected to the All-defensive team, as shown in the playoffs, when players would get really up after a good defensive stand or play or a steal and so did the fans.

@kansas-oats

Very cool!!! There are many, many jealous fans just about now...me included. :(

Welcome to the board.

@DoubleDD

Here you go...:)

!BigRedDog.jpg ↗

@ParisHawk

Few has some 'splainin to do and this stint will not enhance his reputation. Fortunately for him, our society seem to have a very short memory.

By the way...team USA comes back from way behind in the fourth quarter and outscores Dominican Republic 28-14 to win 87-82 for the Bronze Medal. Look like they stunk up the place for 3 quarters. Langford and Randolph, perhaps the best two players on the team, did not play at all...they both play professionally in Russia.

@Lulufulu

I have a partial answer to the first one...look at the uniforms. Back in 1984. players wore the tight tops and short shorts and they looked tall and skinny. Now, with loose tops and baggy shorts they look short and stocky.

A few days ago I was looking at some picture of a young Michael Jordan and he looked really tall and skinny and when I looked at later photos, he looked shorter and bulkier. Going back and forth I finally figured out that the only difference was the uniform. While he gained some weight in his career, his height stayed pretty much the same. Take a look at two sets of photos of players that wore both the short and the baggy shorts and you will see what I mean.

Wilt and Dwight Howard are the same weight and Wilt is only 2-3 inches taller but when you look at their pictures in uniforms, you would thing Howard is 100 pounds heavier and 8 inches shorter than Wilt, again, with the short shorts, Wilt looks extremely thin, which he was not...he was powerfully built and with baggy pants and a loose top he would look 100 pound heavier. Here is a photo of Wilt, Shaq and Ewing (appears to be mid 90s) and they all appear to have similar builds, with Ewing being 20 pound lighter than Wilt; however, when you look at photos of Wilt in his short shorts he looks like a stick. Now, I am not sure if this is a real photo or a Photoshopped one but someone drew a line to indicate the similar heights between Shaq and Wilt, so even if it is not real, it seem to be in proportion...just sayin'

!WiltShaqEwing.jpg ↗

@jaybate-1.0

Giving up so soon?

@jaybate-1.0

Surely you can come up with something better...

@jaybate-1.0

Oh c'mon...do like Avis does...try harder...

@jaybate-1.0

Weak sauce...you can do better...

@jaybate-1.0

Is that all you got? Keep it coming...

@jaybate-1.0

I sure get into your head, don't I?

!Screaming_bald_man.jpg ↗

@jaybate-1.0

Again...

!Seriously.jpg ↗

!Seriously.jpg ↗

@dylans

Unfortunately like many thing in life the first impression is the one that counts. In business there is an expression that says...you don't get a second chance to make a first impression...which is Alexander situation in a nutshell. In politics, when a news organization or rival makes an accusation, most people take that as the truth and do not read the retraction that comes a few days later and the false allegation lives on. Alexander words were all over the news and nobody saw the following clarification. Cliff's advisers should have prepared him better for the interview, but considering the advise he had all along from "his" people, it is really not that surprising; this is the difference between a professional and an amateur agent/adviser.

More importantly, Coach Self said those words...about Cliff getting dealt a bad hand by life and more importantly, by his family and not by KU. The clear implication by Alexander in the pre-draft interview was that he was dealt a bad hand by KU, backtracking notwithstanding, which is the part that really turned fans off since it is really not true. Alexander's problems were not created by KU. KU was officially notified by the NCAA of the investigation and it did the only reasonable and responsible thing it could do which was to sit him down until the issue was resolved...and it never was...and the lack of resolution had nothing to do with KU but with Cliff and family

@KUSTEVE

I don't see any circumstance in the NCAA where KU would play 9 games in 12 day and 8 of them in 10 days. Even in the Conference post-season tournament the most you would play is 4 games, assuming you finished in the bottom 4 , or 3 otherwise; in the NCAA Tournament is 2 games at the time or 3 if you are at the very bottom and have to play in what they now call the first round and even then, there is some rest in between games.

Also, keep in mind that KU had to play against a German team that had played one less game and in a weaker pool. I believe this experience will pay dividends big time in March.

@wrwlumpy

I don't believe we are talking about the same thing. Coach Self never said a negative word about Alexander other than to indicate that he was frustrated by the situation, who wouldn't be?

Check this link ↗and listen to the podcast...even Jay Bilas on draft night indicated that Alexander hurt himself with his comments and that probably hurt him on draft night.

As a former Jayhawk Cliff will always have the support of the fan base; however, the way his stint a KU ended, leaving the team short handed and his subsequent comments about the program left a sour taste in the mouth of most fans and it will be a while before many of us get over that.

Having said that, best of luck to Cliff.

@approxinfinity

Interesting. I understand that Kaun made very good money in Russia and is financially set for life; at this time he just wants to prove to himself that he can play in the top League in the world and probably would play for not much money. It would be great to see Kaun in the NBA.

@Crimsonorblue22

I see what you did there...wink, wink.... :D

@TheDrunkenJhawk

Let me say this and I assure you I mean no disrespect, but...are you nuts, drunk or both? Have you actually seen Frankamp and/or Graham play? If you had you would know why Frankamp left...he knew that he could not beat Graham for playing time, and both play the same position.

The only time where Frankamp would have an edge is in a 3-point competition with no one guarding him. I posted the numbers under game time conditions and Graham's numbers are much better than Frankamp; I would be curious to know on what you base your opinion since the numbers do not support your assertion.

Defense? Not even close, Frankamp is a smart player with high IQ, but when he was on the court, he was the weak link on defense. Devonte is a much better defender than Frankamp.

Let me ask you a question...if you had to select one player between Frankamp and Graham, who would you pick? If you select Frankamp then there is no sense in continuing this discussion since we would be 180 degrees apart, and I believe the great majority of the posters in this forum, who are very familiar with both player, would agree with me.