Mickelson has been Hudy-sized!!!
JayHawkFanToo
13427 posts
If a players has the talent, grades and no disciplinary issues, he play in a regular 4 year program and does not go to JuCo.. A lot of the players at JuCo are there because of grades (which will be an ongoing problem) or issues related to eligibility or discipline. Look at how many top rated JuCo players Weis brought and how many are still on the team.
Before the start of the season, he had already played in the Nike Hoops Summit USA vs the world game and the Jordan Brand Classic where he had 5 blocks, including one that had Randle reeling. His stock was way up and had been upgraded to 5-stars and anointed a lottery pick. Don't forget that Coach Self values experience, in 2012 he started veteran Kevin Young over McDonald All-American Perry Ellis,
Sumlin and Gill resumes are quite different.
Most likely Alexander. Keep in Mind that Embiid did not start until several games into the season after Tarik had s few poor games.. If Mickelson starts and play anywhere close to Withey, then we will be in really good shape at the bigs.
Biggest unknowns coming into the season: who will start at PG, and how much have Mickelson and Lucas improved over the Summer; the first one being the $64k question.
Kevin Sumlin would have been a grand slam hire back then. In 2009 KU was in good position to recruit a top tier coach, now it will have to settle for an unproven assistant, mid-major coach or a coach on his way down/out. KU is just not a desired destination at this time, it is the place where coaches got bid their last hurrah...for nice paycheck.
Turner Gill should not have been in that list in the first place; his record as a head coach prior to KU was:
2006 2-10, Conference 1-3
2007 5-7, Conference 5-3
2008 8-6, Conference 5-3
2009 5-7, Conference 3-5
That is a combined 20-30 and 14-14 in the MAC. How in the wold does this record qualify Gill for a HC position at a BCS school? Just askin'
I like your list. As I stated before, the chance of KU landing an established Major program coach are next to nill. Perhaps a capable assistant coach at a major program looking to break into the HC position might also be an option.
If you look the numbers, the only one that was really down was the blocks, all the others show only minor changes. I believe part of the reason is the emphasis Anderson placed on Mickelson gaining weight to better match with the opposing centers in college. He went from his stated 185 pound in HS recruiting sites to 220 pounds in his freshman year and to 245 pounds in his sophomore year. As we all know, Anderson likes to have all five players press the ball all the time, and while he could do it at 220 pounds, the higher 245 pound weight was too much and not matched by the needed increase in muscle and power and was mostly dead weight; this is one of the main reason why his blocks went down quite a bit.
At KU and under Hudy's tutelage he has transformed those fat pounds into muscle pounds and as result he has increased his vertical jump by 6 inches; all of this bodes well for him and for KU. If he has indeed shown good improvement over what he did in his freshman year, then we might be in for a very pleasant surprise and I would not be surprised to see him start at center.
A couple of thoughts.
I read somewhere that the average person remembers or is aware of facts only his age minus 10-15 years, ergo the average 18 year old remember or is aware of what happened roughly in the last 3-8 years. So the average HS recruits is looking at that short of a period of time and is really no cognizant of what happened before that. Ask any basketball (less players to remember) who were the starting players at KU 10 years ago and give you 10:1 odds that 8 out of ten recruits cannot even name 3 and only if those players made it to the NBA, and I also give you 10:1 odds that the same 8 out of 10 do not know who was the National Champion 10 years ago. In other words, tradition matters only to a point, and with the current generation Internet, smart phones) where immediate results are the norm, 3 to 5 years is probably the limit of what they care to remember.
Now, KSU is not only the better football program now, it has been a the better program for close to 25 years (except for a couple of years in the Prince/Mangino era), and it will be as long as Snyder is there. KU will be fighting an uphill battle recruiting against KSU for the foreseeable future. You don't think KSU football is a force? Except for the Prince years, KSU has been in the top half of the conference consistently, where KU, except for short run in the Mangino era, has consistently been at the bottom...1 conference win in 3 years will do it to you.
You also mention distance. Wichita is actually 30 something miles closer to Manhattan that it is to Lawrence and Topeka is only 20 something miles closer to Lawrence than Manhattan. If you look at the entire state, 80%-90% of it is closer to Manhattan than it is to Lawrence.
In realistic terms, does distance make difference? For the top players its does not. 5-start recruits will go play for powerhouses regardless of where are located since their objective is to get exposure to move on to the NFL; BTW, the state currently has no 5-star recruits. It is the same case for 4-star recruits (4 in the state) and 3 of them are going out of state and one to KSU. The 3-star recruits are role players and maybe starters at major programs but likely starters at the smaller programs, and given the opportunity, will go to a good program than a below average program that is closer since the exposure is much larger. The 2-star players (or below) usually will be not see a lot of playing time at the bigger programs and are recruited by the smaller programs and likely will go to the best program that offers an opportunity. While you cannot build a consistent top program with 2-star players, a good recruiter will spot the diamond in the rough in this group, much like Mangino and company did with the players that became the core of the Orange Bowl team. Now, when it comes to JuCo players, Kansas has the biggest percentage in the top 100, but as we all saw in the last couple of years, it really does not work that well when building a program. There is a reason why those players are playing JuCo football in the first place.
If you want exposure, KU is not the place where you want to go. I (a Kansas resident, Olathe) am not not able to watch KU's first couple of games on TV while I am able to watch every KSU (and MU ) game. Heck, thanks to Mr. Zenger I cannot even watch all of KU basketball games, while again, I can watch every KSU (and MU) basketball game...of course, along with the 20-30 other people in the entire country I can watch every race of the women's rowing team and every competition of the women's golf and cross country teams as well.
Just enough rambling and assorted thoughts; I am sure some will agree and some will not.
I fully agree that Mangino and Leach got raw deals.
To a proven coach that is already making millions an extra million will not make a difference, considering the risk to ones career after coaching at KU. Gill is now coaching at Jerry Falwell's school and Weis likely will most likely not ever get a HC position again....plus KU does not have the money considering the last 3 buyouts.
In this century KU has had 2 All-American and currently has 7 players in the NFL. I am sure that Bill Snyder mention this while naming the 13 All-American KSU has had in the same time and the 13 players in the NFL, while casually mentioning Jordy Nelson's play for the Packers...just sayin'
I know, In the late 70s Playboy did a story about the worse programs ever in football and KSU was selected #1.
Do you really believe a "proven BCS" coach would take the KU job? If yes, who?
How are you going to get the top talent? KSU has a superior program and they get first dibs and whoever else is left will likely go to a big time program. In any case and as I mentioned, the state produces too few top players to make much of a difference.
As far as the comment "2 years removed from an Orange Bowl win" it was not meant to be that we had the same personnel, we did not; however, the good will and standing of the program at the time were good enough to influence recruiting, much like Coach Self uses the winning tradition and players in NBA to recruit basketball players. What is KU going to tell now a top recruit to get him to come to Lawrence? We won ONE conference game in 3 years? Yeepee!!! How do you think that is going to work? At this time all KU can offer is playing time and top recruits will get that anyway...at a better program. Best bet is to find 3-star recruits with high potential and hope they develiop, that is what Mangino did anyway. Replacing coaches every couple of years does not help and raises all kinds of red flags with potential recruits.
@wrwlumpy
Love it, one of my all time favorites.
Don't forget that the 5-7 record was in large part due to the internal situation of the program more so than talent, where you had players (and parents) crying and whining about the "mean" coach and the Athletic Director getting involved and undermining Mangino. Had the fat man been given support or left alone to do his job, the outcome would have been likely different.
As far as "KU can't simply rely on foreign oil." ...as a matter of fact it absolutely has to rely on "foreign oil" since the state does not produce enough "domestic oil" to supply even one major program, let alone two, with the "other" state program being in football what KU is in basketball...and the basketball program, even when it regularly takes the top state players, it still relies heavily on "foreign oil" wouldn't you agree?
I agree with your assessment of Frankamp based on what we have seen so far. I also agree that the more likely position for him is SG rather than PG. His fundamental are solid and he knows how to play defense, unfortunately against top opposition, the physical is not at the same level as the mental component. Perhaps we can extend the definition of "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" to indicate that up to now, his athleticism has not matched his game IQ, although I have read bits and pieces that over the summer he has made huge improvements athleticism-wise and he might be a big surprise. Let's also remember that when he had to step up, he did it very well when playing for the Under 17 USA team which he led in scoring and shot .452 from 3 (.557 overall) and was a perfect 1.000 from the free throw line.
I strongly disagree on the firing of Turner Gill. I personally think he should have not been hired in the first place since he had not shown before the success needed to coach a BCS program; the highlight of his resume was one lone average season that even Jason Whitlock thought had more to do with luck that with actual excellence on the field.
More importantly, Gilll inherited a program with decent talent and two years remove from an Orange Bowl win, brand new state-of-the-art facilities and drove it into the ground. Not only the team was being trashed on the field, the academic environment was a disaster and headed for potential probation and morale was at an all time low...which is a lot to say considering it is the KU football team.
Hiring a coach at KU is not going to be easy. When Weis was hired, several others were considered including Mike Leach, that someone mentioned above (and who I would have liked a lot) but he passed and went to Washington; there is no way he comes to KU. Let's face it, KU is not a desired destination for an established coach, now way, no how, no ma'am. KU will have to find an up and coming coach with potential that is willing to take a chance on a school that changes coaches every two years and has to recruit against the likes of OU, OSU, Texas., Texas Tech., Baylor...and yes. KSU. Most likely scenario is KU select an assistant coach wanting to move up to a head coaching position.
As far as in-sate talent. Kansas does not produce enough in-state players to support a programs. On a good year, it might produce 3 or 4 major programs candidates. The current class has no 5-star players and 4 4-star players which are going to Oklahoma State, Tennessee and K-State, all much more prestigious programs than KU. To attract this type of players, KU will have to get a lot better and it will be a slow and long term project; no coach in the land will turn KU programs around in two years.
"Do you think it is a clear line where those expectations stop?"
I did not say "expect" I said "require." When you pay millions of $ to an Athletic program. you don't 'expect" them to do something, you "require" them to do and perform as it surely is clearly outlined in the contract they sign.
"Does your contribution being expensed, or otherwise deductible, make a difference?"
It is not a "contribution" it is payment for services contracted, namely wear the gear and promote the brand, and like all marketing costs. it is indeed a valid business expense.
"Is there any reason why fans should expect that in reality they limit their expectations to the wearing of the uniforms the Petro-ShoeCos hope to pedal, as you express would be a bare minimum of your expectations?"
Fans can do, expect, think and believe whatever they want; however, the only thing that counts is what is outlined in the contract signed by KU and Adidas.
As part of their contract, coaches are expected to promote the brand that endorses the school and part of their salary comes from contracts with the likes of Nike, Adidas an up-and-comer Under Armour and it is referred as appearance money.
Here is a link that skims the surface of what coaches, even those from top programs, are required to do...
As I said, I don't think Coach Weis spend any more or any less time on the subject than throe coaches, including those from big and small programs alike,as long as they get money from an athletic equipment manufacturer.
Interesting that during the game yesterday, the announcers/commentators mentioned several times that the administration at KU understood that this was 5 year plan and not a quick 2 year fix...go figure.
You wrote:
"Anyway, Zenger agrees with me. He called me last night after he read my post. We had a nice talk, and I guess he decided to pull the trigger."
So...Adidas is no longer sponsoring KU? :)
Not a good thing to fire a coach 4 games into the season. The administration knew or should have known that it was going to be a 5 year plan. Who will want to coach at KU knowing that in a couple of years you get fired for not producing results in a program that has been in failure mode for so long? How many coaches will KU be paying not to coach? The last 3 so far...
Thank God for basketball...
If I were a betting man, I would bet that Coach Weis spends very little time if any dealing with uniforms in addition to the occasions when he is contractually required to do so. In addition of providing uniforms to all sports teams, Adidas pays KU over $4M every year and I am sure that the contract has clear stipulation that require coaches and administrators to mention/promote the uniforms/gear a minimum number of times and on certain occasions; they have to get something for all that money, wouldn't you think. If I would be paying some institution millions of dollars I most certainly would require them to mention/push/promote my product at every opportunity.
No question that losing Cox and Bourbon for the season hurt the offense and you just are not going to win to many games when you get into the Texas side of the field ten times, your QB throws 4 interceptions and and come up with zero points. If you look a the statistics, the number are not that different and it was only 13-0 with 10 minutes left in the fourth quarter; the interceptions were absolute killers.
I hope you understand that many KU fans are a little touchy when it comes to Embiid. He is likely the player at KU with the biggest potential since...Danny Manning??? and he will either be a Hall of Famer or the next Greg Oden. Joel seems to be a genuinely nice person and I sincerely hope is the first.
BTW, I do hope the headaches are not getting worse; A person very close and dear to me suffers from fibromyalgia and I know first hand how debilitating and excruciatingly painful migraine headaches can be.
Again, This is what I said:
"I was merely pointing out that coaches have to play with the players they have and not with the ones they wish the had, the ones thata re no longer available or the ones that will come in next season; it is really that simple." It really is not that hard to understand...unless you really do not want to or prefer to change the subject to politics, a subject in which we obviously we don't see eye to eye.
In deference to other members of this forum that do not share my ideas and come to this forum to discuss KU sports, once again, I will not engage in political discussion and I will keep my opinions on the subject to myself; I respectfully suggest you do likewise.
I understand what you are saying but I believe you are looking at it the wrong way when you say student athletes don't get paid.
I have posted before several publications that outline what student athletes get and it is not a small sum; on the average it is well over $50k per year in direct benefits (tuition, room and board and incidentals), not including the training they get from top of the line coaches and trainers, the facilities available only to then as well a the exposure they receive.
The real word is not that different. If you work for a corporation and they want to use your likeness in advertisements they can do so and you are not allowed to use it for a competitor. Likewise, any process or product you develop becomes property of the employer and not the employee.
So what if an athlete cannot get $25 to get his picture in an advertisement? He is probably getting close to $100K in benefits every year and a reasonable person would think that with those benefits the school has to receive something in return? Wouldn't you think?
How about the Jabari bars? First, if you just Google "Graham cracker dessert bar recipes" you will see that there are literally 100's of similar recipes and the Jabari bars are likely just one of those recipes and a patent is pretty much out of the question, so is the person or persons wanting to market the product doing it because it is a new product (it is not) or because he is a UK player? How about if his business partners, say a business partnership in Vegas, ask him to alter the outcome of a game in order to continue marketing the product? This is where the lines become blurred and the game gets corrupted. You can see where organized crime would quickly step in to "fund" student athletes business ventures and the integrity of the game goes away.
An athlete that does not like the constraints of college sports can always by-pass it by joining the D-League or playing in one of the minor leagues or overseas. The one year after HS is not an NCAA rule, it is an NBA rule. Playing in the NBA is not a right, it is a privilege attained by showing competence in the sport and excellence in college is the best but by no means the only way to make it to the League.
I disagree with most of what you said but this is not the forum for a discussion of warfare strategy or politics. I was merely was pointing out that coaches have to play with the players they have and not with the ones they wish the had, the ones thata re no longer available or the ones that will come in next season; it is really that simple.
We can discuss basketball as intensively as you want but I will stays out of politics, religion and non-sports related and partisan/controversial topics.
Wooden coached in a different time when a few team dominated college basketball and the talent he had was so much better that they could mail in the results most of the time. I am not sure that in today's environment and with the parity that exist in the game Wooden, or any other coach for that matter, could replicate the results. If nothing else, this is why KU streak of Conference Titles is so impressive.
A good guard will slice and dice a press like a sharp blade in a kosher deli. Remember in 2004, Mike Anderson;s UAB team and the "40 minutes of hell" had just taken down top seed KU and the talk was that it would do the same to KU. With superior play from Aaron Miles KU completely ran around the press and demolished UAB. Miles finished with 10 assist and the main beneficiary was the Big Dub who finished with 30 points, 9 rebound and 5 assist himself, while shooting a record 18 free throws. Anderson was so frustrated that got two technical and was ejected. Final score was 100-74...and it was not even that close. I believe that was the beginning of the end for the "40 minutes of hell" or "fastest 40 minutes" as the solution to the press became apparent. I believe the only teams that still play that style are Arkansas and VCU.
Over a lifetime (40 years), high school grads average $1.2 million; with a bachelor's degree, $2.1 million; a master's degree, $2.5 million. Even at the higher end, the average person makes in a lifetime less than half of what the average NBA player makes in one year (average is$ 5.15M). Unless you inherited a position in the family's corporate business, even the higher paid executives have to work almost a lifetime to get to that level.
Also, no one is demanding that athletes stay one year or three years in college or that they attend college in the first place; that is entirely their decision. BTW, a lot of careers have even more stringent requirements in order to work on your field. As an Engineer, I have to take a test after finishing college to become an EIT or Engineer-in-training, after that, I have to show 4 years of relevant experience working under a licensed engineer in order to become eligible to take the PE (professional Engineer) test , and after passing it, then I can officially work as an Engineer; I would say those are much harsher requirements than staying in college 1 or two years. Of course I don't have to take these tests or become licensed, but without a license, I cannot work as an engineer and if I do I am subject to legal penalties. The same is true for lawyers, doctors, yes...accountants and many other professions. So when it comes to requirement to work on your chosen field, athletes have it pretty easy and the monetary compensation is huge.
Donald Rumsfeld famously said: "As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time."
Likewise, Coach Self has to play with the players he has at hand that particular season and not the players he wish he had, so naturally, his philosophy and game plan has to change to adapt to the talent at hand and it will likely change once he gets more actionable facts about the players under real game situations.
Rumsfeld also said:
The message is that there are no "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.
At first read it makes no sense but if you read carefully it start to look reasonable, and extending the expression to the topic at hand, we see that there are many knowns and unknowns going into the season that take a while to get resolve and some may never be; the PG situation last year was, IMHO, never really resolved to the point of not being an issue.
As far as last season, remember that we had the biggest swing in experience that I have ever seen at KU and I can't even recall a UK team with that much change . We lost the entire starting lineup including 3 - 5th years seniors, 1 senior and one elite red shit sophomore and in some games (Florida comes to mind) started 4 true freshmen and 1 sophomore that had started all of 3 games as a freshman and averaged only 13.6 MPG. That is the epitome of an inexperienced team and not the ideal set up for Self-Ball. It would appear that this year we do not have players of Wiggins, Embiid or even Black caliber and/or experience at some positions, and if Coach Self decides to go with Mason and Frankamp at guards, Selden at SF, Ellis at PF and Mickelson, Traylor or Lucas at Center, that team, although not as potentially talented, would have more than twice the experience of last year's team. It is only logical (as Spock would say) that the game plan is necessarily different. Different players, different talent, different experience ==> different game plan,.
It is not illegal or impermissible to have different opinions and I don't agree with everything he does, even when he has forgotten more about basketball that I will ever know and he is one of the more successful basketball coaches ever, but I do not state that he might be doing it wrong either when he has all the facts and I do not; that is the text book definition of second guessing which, BTW, is in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing; after all this is, up to a point, what we do in sport forums.
sec·ond–guess
transitive verb \ˌse-kəŋ-ˈges, -kən(d)-\
: to criticize or question the actions or decisions of someone
: to try to guess or predict what (someone or something) will do
You wrote:
wondering if he realizes what his biggest strength with this team is.
Really? and I mean REALLY? You really think Coach Self does not know what the biggest strength of the team is?
Right now, we have very little information about this team. We don't know how the new players are coming along or how much the returning players have improved; what is the injury and physical conditioning situation, academic situation, personal issues and so on; Coach Self has all this information and then some, and bases his decision on facts not guesses in consultation with one of the top staffs in the business. He acts based on factual information, the rest of us just second guess...wouldn't you agree?
I like Winston Churchill; he was one smart cookie - JayHawkFanToo
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life - Winston Churchill...and several posters on the Forum...
If you are going through hell, keep going - Winston Churchill...and T-Rob.
History will be kind to me for I intend to write it - Winston Churchill...and Coach K
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficult - Winston Churchill
There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world, and the worst of it is that half of them are true - Winston Churchill...and John Calipari
Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense - Winston Churchill
I am easily satisfied with the very best - Winston Churchill...l and probably every other coach in America.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen - Winston Churchill
History is written by the victors. - Winston Churchill
This is the issue I have. Most of us pay to go to college for at least 4 year to get a degree or more if you want graduate degree, the we work all of our lives and if you are lucky and after 20 years you are making $200k you are in the upper 4% of the population; at $100K you are in the top 7%.
Now, a student athlete gets paid to attend college at level that most every other student can only dream, leaves after a year after completing maybe two semesters and will be making in one year more than most every other person makes in a lifetime. I understand that their playing days are limited, but why is it that after, say 10 -12 years, he has to stop working? None of us do, why can't they start working at something else like the rest of the population? Yes, they are gifted athletes but many of us are gifted engineers, doctors, accountants and what have you and yet we don't feel entitled to quit working after 10 years.
A few years ago when basketball players went on strike I had an interesting talk with other sports fans about the impact of the strike on society at large. The question posed was which strike affect you personally and society most and least, a basketball/pro-players strike or a sanitation workers or policemen, or doctors or grocery store clerk and others? The answer for most was sanitation workers and you can guess what the answer for least was ...kind of makes you think.
You wrote:
Not second guessing him, more wondering if he realizes what his biggest strength with this team is. Last year's team is exactly what it was, this years team will be different in many ways and while we are a smaller team overall than in the past, I still think we could stand better to put opposing teams at disadvantage by Playing Selden at the 2 with the combo of wings next to him.
Really? You don't call this second guessing?
Correct me if I am wrong but I don't recall Josh Selby leaving for the NBA for financial reason. If I remember correctly his mother was colelge graduate and had a job and was not in financial distress as McLemore's family was.
But...we don't know how Oubre or Green or Svi have performed so far and we cannot second guess Coach Self on which he thinks is the lineup that produces the best results, right?
Memphis FT average for the season was a poor .608 and at the Title game shot 12-19 for an above average .623. KU FT average for the season was a.702 and shot 14-15 for an out-of-this-world .933 FT average, well above the season average. Douglas Roberts and Rose were the best free throw shooters in the team and had season FT averages of .720; Douglas Roberts shot 6-9 FT at the game for .667 but two of the 3 missed free throws were with 16 second left and Rose shot 3-4 FT at the game for .750 but his one miss came with 10 seconds left and could have put Memphis by 4...instead it put them up by only 3 and we all know how it turned out. In short, it was not as much the missed free throws that doomed Memphis but WHEN they were missed. Had Rose made that free throw, he would have been 1..000 from the free throw line, highly unlikely in a Title game.
Memphis did have a very good team and I would be curious if someone ran a simulation to determine who would win a 3 or 5 game series. Enough history, the good guys won.
Is this the article you mentioned?
If it is, I only see where he contacted the Cavaliers about Wiggins. something all coaches do on behalf of their players; however, I don't really see anything about asking them about the HC job.
A lot of talent in that Memphis team. If not for several missed free throws by Rose (can't blame those on Calipari), KU does not get close and tie the game in regulation. I was watching the game and had pretty much accepted that Memphis was going to win...it was comeback for the ages!!!
What planet do you live in? No disrespect intended.
You are looking at a tiny fraction of the expenditures for the basketball team.
Operating expense per participant: $127,886
KU total Basketball expenditures: $10,724,156
KU Total Basketball Revenue: $16,412,415
The revenues are not generated by the players alone. Revenues include TV contracts, endorsements, trademark even concession stands. All of this require a number of administrators (and yes, attorneys) to get the revenues flowing. The Jayhawk trademark and brand popularity alone likely contribute the most and are largely player independent.
Here is the official government source:
Source of financial information for Educational Institutions... ↗