Agreed. However the attributes you mentioned can be compromised if he maintains the "score first" attitude; if I remember correctly RussRob indicated that much in Beyond the Phog.
JayHawkFanToo
13427 posts
And this is why I don't place as much importance on the NCAA tournament since luck and the right match-ups play too large of a role. If the Elite 8 and forward are played as best of 3 or best of 5, KU does not win in '88 and even '08 is a tossup but it wins at least 4-5 others where it was the superior team with a bad game at the wrong time. This is why every major professional sport other than football (logistically not feasible) uses a "best of" format instead of a single game. Just my opinion.
I agree with every point you made...the world must be coming to an end.
The underlying theme of our culture is that we have choices, some might have better (or worse) options but in the end we all have the option and freedom of saying yes or no.
The average athlete at a programs such as KU has a lot more options than the average student that has to depend on family money, loans, scholastic scholarships (none even close to an athletic scholarship) or part-time classwork with part-time work or a combination of all. Enough said, you presented perfectly.
When I am on the coast(s) I always get the...you are not in Kansas anymore.
One time I was in Sunnyvale doing work for NASA at the Vertical motion Simulator at Moffet Air Station. The first evening there, my friend, who was the NASA science adviser to the astronauts, and I decide to go get a drink and asked at the front desk for recommendations for a place nearby. The concierge goes...there is the gay bar a few doors down, the lesbian bar in the next block, the transgender joint 2 block away and the S&M place further down...at which time my friend turns to me and says...Toto, I don't think we are in Kansas anymore...which felt perfectly appropriate at the time....ahhh, California...
I am confused about Item 2. I knew the Cavaliers had contacted him as have many other teams before...
Cavalier contact Coach Self.. ↗
and here ...
But I don't know where you got the information that he "asked the Cavaliers about their coaching vacancy." Do you have any links to that information? Now, I am really curious...and worried???
Favorite game I did attend - KU-Texas game in 2003 when Collison (24 points, 23 rebounds) fouled out in overtime and gets a standing ovation from the crowd including "Duke" Vitale who indicates was only the the second time he has done that in his career (the other was for David Robinson); both teams made it to the Final Four that year. My son, who is a very introverted and quiet person, was 16 at the time and attended the game with me, and he was on his feet screaming at the top of his lungs along with the crowd the entire game...never had see him that excited before or since; it was that special.
I think it is something that could happen and would be beneficial for booth schools.
Coach William has always been very respectful of the KU program and its traditions and at times it has gotten him in trouble at his new home; you have got to respect him for that. I have lot of respect for him and I am thankful for what he did at KU. I do not begrudge him for leaving, since we all knew it was a matter of time; I do however have a problem with the way he left, and for that most of the blame falls on KU alum and former player Dean Smith.
KU graduates just about every player that stay 4 years and many that left early come back to finish their degree; Cole Aldrich was Academic All-American Player of the year in his third and last year at KU and took summer classes to complete his degree and proudly walked down the hill, which is something that he had promised his parents. BTW, the "greatest walk-on" at KU, Christian Moody, also went on to Medical School and Sasha Kaun got a degree in Computer Science.
A small group of players that attended (and hopefully graduated from) KU end up in the NBA, a few others are coaching or working for Athletics programs but the great majority of players end up working in a fields other than basketball or sports.
You need to plan a trip to AFH for a game. It is an experience that is hard to describe and even harder to forget; it stands to reason that it is called the Cathedral of Basketball. The 60th aniversary celebration is coming up and it would be a good one to attend.
Nothing would please me more that to provide a whooping to the arrogant Longhorns. They stole one win in 2004 with a bogus offensive interference call and a second one in 2012 with a TD with 12 seconds left. Maybe this time lucks is on our side.
I hope things turn around for you and you get some relief.
The model would work the same as it does now but instead of being 1 year removed from HS it would be 3 years. The JuCo is a no go since it does not provide the level of competition or exposure that players need and the 3 year period after HS would still apply. The only options would be the D-League and overseas teams but there is only a limited supply of space there, so the bulk of players would still go to Division I schools.
As I indicated, the true elite players can still go directly to the NBA and skip college altogether. As far as the busts, the NBA GMs themselves indicated that the one year rule was establishes specifically for this purpose; I personally heard Kevin Pritchard, former KU player, indicate this much in a radio interview on 610-AM while he was still GM of the Portland Trail Blazers. keep in mind that every lottery player that does not pan out ties the team to $12M-$15M, not an insignificant figure. There is lots of information on players that left after one year and did not do well in the League. The consensus seems to be that only players selected in the top 10-11 (almsot all lottery picks) have consistently performed well, but players selectedbelow that are hit and miss and most end up as journeymen in the League.
WTF? you actually brought up OMG and BFF in one sentence despite been warned? ROTFLMAO!!!
At times last season, Mason regressed to his HS level of confidence where he was a volume shooter and scorer, and he would take a long three at the beginning of the possession with no one in position to rebound. Let's hope his decision making has improved in the off-season, and much like RussRob did, he can transition from scorer first-passer second to passer first scorer second which is what the team really need from him.
Indeed. The nature of the college game has changed big time with the advent of the OAD, at least for the elite programs.
You can build a team 3 ways:
OADs - This is the UK model that depend heavily on OADs, a couple of less than stellar classes and the program can crash. Even with top recruiting classes, a key injury can land you in the NIT and loosing to Bobby Mo.
NO OADs - This the model that most schools use, not necessarily by choice but more likely because they cannot land the big time recruits.
Hybrid - This the model used by KU and several other elite programs that can recruit some elite, OAD players but not enough to go full OAD like Kentucky. Since the program does not depend heavily on OADS, a couple of poor recruiting season might set the program back but would not necessarily create havoc.
I personally prefer the approach that depend on top but not necessarily elite players that will stay in school at least 2 years and preferably more. Let's face it, if a player is good enough to go to the NBA, chances are he will not stay 4 years, and if he is good enough, he should not; not that many senior in the NBA draft anymore.
To me, the best approach is one similar to the model baseball uses. A player can go directly from HS to the NBA and players like Lebron and Durant do not need to go one year to college, but if the player chooses to go to college then he must wait 3 years.
Several positive results with this approach.
Allows exceptional players a direct path to the NBA.
Prevents HS to NBA busts.
Players that go to college are better prepared for the NBA.
Improves the level of college basketball and competition becomes much better. I will guess the NBA fears a higher level college game that could compete with them for audience.
Last but not least, allows the student-athlete to make substantial progress towards a college degree that he can use if the NBA does not work.
The OAD rule was established by the NBA for purely selfish reasons. There had been a number of HS to NBA busts and the league wanted to observe players in better environment than HS games and hence college basketball became the NBA's laboratory.
Can you imagine the level of competition we would see in college with teams full of NBA caliber players in their third year? It would be awesome. Would any team be able to beat a KU team with top players in their third year under Coach Self's system?
Here are a few acronyms frequently used on-line:
IMHO - In my humble opinion.
FWIW - For what is worth.
AFAIK - As far as I know,
BTW - By the way.
ROTFLMAO - Rolling of the floor laughing my a$$ off.
LOL- laughing out loud or Laughing on line.
TMI - too much information.
WTF - What the fu**.
SH - Sh** happens.
CYA -Cover Your Ass or See Ya.
OMG - Censored, never to be used in a sports forum.
BFF- Censored, never to be used in a sports forum.
The Big Bang Theory?
Now back to basketball. Do you think Foster is the best guard in the Conference? If not him, who?
You wrote:
We were never in that game. Ever. Not when we were 5 points away,
I guess when KU was down by 9 points with 2:12 left against Memphis in 2008, KU was never in that game either, right? How did that game work out?
Would you trade Mason for Foster?
I agree. As I indicated, KU dug itself into a deep hole in the first half and even when it outscored UK by six in the second half, it was not enough to overcome the deficit. By the way, KU last year's team was younger than the UK.2012 team The three key players in 2012 UK championship game were 2 sophomores and 1 senior.
Shepherd is a very good player that Coach Self pursued heavily. My comment was based on HEM's premise that he had already played one year under Coach Self. It is the proverbial premise of whether you pick a proven player with good potential or an unproven player with greater potential. Also keep in mind that Shepherd will like stay in college longer than Alexander and will continue to improve and it comes a time where you have to look at the long term outlook (Shepherd) rather than a short term boost (Alexander).
Under the conditions you outlined, I too would take Shepherd for Alexander. However, I would not take White over Oubre. We talk a lot about White and his potential...but so far it has been only potential and the reality is that he could not make the starting team or get playing time last season, and,with one year of experience under his belt, chances are he he would still not have made the starting five over Oubre. This would seem to indicate that there are limitations to his game that we do not know but the coaching staff is aware and hence his transfer to a different program..
Based on what I have seen up to know, Marcus Foster is a much better PG than Mason or Frankamp. He is arguably the best guard in the conference. If not for Wiggins, Foster would have been the Conference freshman of the year last season.
You wrote...
but I think Coach's seminal moment came in that title game against Kensucky. He saw KU's most experienced team get whipped by a team that that was more talented. Hey, we had the ALL-American down low, we also had the best rim protector since Wilt, we had a fast as lightening point guard, and the best defender on the team at the 3. We were simply one of the best defensive teams in the country, and we were dominated. ll never forget Tyshawn getting his stuff smacked back in his face on every drive to the basket he made. We started 3 5th year seniors...seniors in their 5th year, and we couldn't give them a game.
I don't believe that KU got "whipped" by or that we were "dominated" by Kentucky in that game. KU was within 5 point with 1:38 left in the game and if not for a couple of easy missed shot, this game could have gone the other way. Unfortunately KU dug itself a deep hole in the first half that could not overcome. Do you realize that KU outscored Kentucky by 6 points in the second half? How is that for giving them a game? If not for Doron Lamb (a sophomore by the way) going nuts, this game ends up differently. Not bad for a bunch of lower ranked recruits playing against top ranked and experienced players of which the top 3 performers at the game Lamb, Miller and Jones ***WERE NOT *** freshmen, Miller was actually a senior...so experience does count.
Also, I don't know where you get your information but KU did not have "3 5th year seniors...senior in their 5th year; " Withey, Releford and Young were all Juniors. and played another season for KU. You are probably thinking of the 2012-2013 season.
As far as the All-American, he clearly outplayed the Unibrow and had better stats in every category except blocks, which were Withey's job on that team.
Anthony Davis: 1-10, 6 points, 16 rebounds, 6 blocks.
Thomas Robinson: 6-17, 18 points, 17 rebounds, 0 rebounds.
Remember that prior to the draft he used to wear a t-shit that said look at the numbers/stats, or something along those lines; a clear reference to the title game. Granted that Robinson missed a couple of dunks late, but overall he performed very well.
Very nicely done HEM. I guess the one area we agree is that the OAD route is not a long term answer and a less talented but more experienced team would have the edge.
Having said that, and with the prospect of the NBA changing the eligibility rules so players stay in College for two years, then Coach Self's system becomes effective again.
The RussRob-Mario combination with Sherron coming off the bench was as good a back court as we have had.
Jeff Buckley's version of Hallelujah is one of my favorite songs and very inspirational . Along the same lines I like Over the Rainbow by Israel "IZ" Kamakawiwo'ole, a truly beautiful interpretation of the song. Something that both songs have in common is that the arrangements are extremely simple and basic (guitar and uke) and the song and the voice are the stars.
RussRob came to KU as a scorer and was very frustrated initially because his role was to distribute the ball rather than score and came very close to transferring. Once he embraced his job, he became one of the steadier PGs ever at KU and a critical part of the '08 Title team. He is perhaps the most overlooked/underrated player I can remember and not a lot of fans really understand how good the team was because of him.
Although we think we have a talented group of bigs, in reality we have only two bigs, both 6'-8" with experience and don't have the true center/rim defender we have grown accustomed to. Our bigs could end up being a solid group or just a serviceable bunch; let's hope is the first.
I agree with you 100%. Who wins the PG battle will probably determine the team's direction and at this time it looks like Mason.
The Oubre-Greenm battle is a net wiin-win since they both can end up being valuable contributors. Svi is a multi-talented (although still raw) player that can play PG, SG or SF although I see him playing mostly the 2 or 3 and I don't expect him to contribute heavily his first year, and if he does, it is just icing on the cake.
You explained much better than I did why Coach Self's system does not work well with OADs and is better suited for teams with more experience. The system could work with only one OAD per season but more than that and then it starts to weaken. Hopefully KU restricts itself to one OAD per season, although from the coach's perspective I can see where it would be very difficult to pass on elite players, even when they will stay only one year.
I believe the college game in many ways follows the NBA trends and now there is very little distinction anymore between PF and Center. Many players that we commonly think of as being centers, such as Pau Gasol, Duncan, Faried, Ibaka. West, Stoudemire, Aldridge, Love and Griffin are actually PFs; not a lot of players in the NBA are listed as pure Centers anymore. The only true Centers KU has had recently were Aldrich and Withey. FWIW, none of the players on the official KU roster is listed as "Center."
My best guess is that Ellis plays 30 minutes, Alexander and Traylor split 40 minutes and Mickelson and Lucas split 10 minutes, all 3 estimates are +/- 5 minutes.
Iowa State has Jameel McKay, a 6'-9 red shirt junior transfer from Marquette, JUCO All-American selection and rated 3rd best JUCO player; he is a scorer and will get lots of playing time. ISU also has Georgios Tsalmpouris, a 7'1" Greek player and member of the National Greek team; while he is young he is supposed to be pretty skilled.
Texas has 5 players 6'-9" or taller including top prospect Myles Turner, and 2 other at 6'-8". That is a lot of height. No doubt they are the tallest team in the conference and will be a match up problem for everybody.
Oklahoma has 5 player 6'-8" or taller and a couple, Spangler and senior transfer from Houston TaShawn Thomas will see tons of playing time. Thomas is 6'-8" 240 and averaged 14+ PPG at Houston and will see considerable playing time.
Oklahoma State has 4 players 6'-8 or taller including 2 footers, and while some might not see a lot of playing time it is still decent height.
Baylor has only 3 players at 6'-8 or taller and it is the smallest squad they have had in while.
Kansas State has 3 players 6'-8" or taller and a couple of smaller players such as Gipson that play taller. Two of the bigs are transfers, including 6'-11" Bolden from Georgetown and Hurt from JUCO that might be ready to get minutes.
West Virginia has 5 players 6'-8 or taller with a couple that will contribute heavily.
TCU has 5 players 6'-8" or taller and a couple will contribute but the team along with Texas Tech with 6 players 6'-8" or taller will not contend in the conference.
Compare with KU with 3 6"8" players and 2 6-10 players and only Ellis and Traylor having substantial playing time at KU. So, as much as we think we have a lot of talent/edge at the bigs, the height and experience ( please note I did not say talent or potential) is comparable to that of the other top conference teams. Actually the number surprised me some because I was conditioned to think we had a lot of depth at the bigs, but then I remembered we lost Black (6'-9" ), a substantial contributor, Embiid (7'-0" , a very, very special player and Wiggins (6'8" ) a unique player that played taller than most bigs and we only got Alexander and Mickelson as replacements, neither a proven or experienced player at KU. I firmly believe that Alexander will come along nicely but Mickelson might be the key.
In short, we will have competition at the bigs, although KU would seem to have the edge in talent/potential, and no question that Texas, with their size and experience, will be the biggest match up problem. KU's biggest strength is at the SG and SF where it is deep and talented.
Assuming Alexander starts at center, how many minutes do you expect him to play? I am not sure how good his conditioning is, particularly if you consider he carries 240+ pounds, plus the foul situation will also come into play. I see him playing around 20 MPG, at least at the start of the season with Mickelson and/or Lucas getting substantial time at Center. Thoughts?
Spot on. Some of the ESPN descriptions can be dated and do not reflect recent progress.
I was not advocating playing at a faster or slower pace, I simply indicated that Mason is capable of playing at a faster pace, although it does not mean that he cannot play at a slow pace if needed. Frankamp's game, on the other hand, is better suited to a slower, more controlled pace and I believe he might have trouble with a faster pace. What pace Coach Self chooses to play might indicate who plays, and in most cases it will depend on who the opponent is.
Nicely done. The elite PG is the one that can direct the offense and set the game plan in motion, whether it is at fast pace or a slower, more deliberate pace and can disrupt the play of the opposing PG enough to alter their game plan. RussRob was an elite PG in my boo,k and one of the more under estimated players ever at KU, and without him KU does not win in 2008.
LOL. He was the starting PG and a very good 3 point and free throw shooter with great knowledge of the game and a natural leader. Not surprising he ended up coaching.
As I see it, KU has two big unknowns coming into the season. Coach Self may already know the answer but we certainly don't. The unknowns are PG and Center.
Let me start by saying that in my opinion the SG and SF, and to an extent PF, are pretty much set with Selden and Oubre starting, Frankamp backing up the SG and Green the SF and Svi likley playing both positions and at time Ellis stepping back and plain SF when Coach Self goes big. I don't see any other players involved in these two positions although Graham might. The PF also seems pretty well stocked with Ellis and Alexander getting the lion's share of minute and Traylor backing them up.
Note: The official KU roster lists Ellis at 6'-8" -225, Alexander at 6'-8" - 240, Traylor at 6'-8" - 220, Lucas at 6'_10" - 240 and Michelson at 6'-10" - 245. They are all listed as "forwards."
The two unknowns I see are:
Unknown 1, Point Guard - We have discussed extensively who will start the season but we still don't have an definite answer.
Unknown 2, Center - Who will start a center?
My answer 1 - Mason has the inside track and can play a faster tempo. Frankamp is the steadier player but tempo would be slower when he is at the helm, on the other hand he can also play SG by virtue of his potential 3 point shooting potential. The biggest unknown is Graham that supposedly is the ultimate combo guard; I don't know much about him so I am not sure where he will play in the rotation. If I were a betting man I would go with Mason at the PG to start the season.
My answer 2 - Alexander would seem the likely starter but being only a "KU" 6'-8 would certainly place him at a disadvantage against the taller centers in the league and his heft might tire him quicker until Hudy has worked her miracles, so we might get only limited playing time at the start, and let's not forget about the "freshman wall" that comes later in the season. Mickelson would appear to be the better suited to play center and his playing time will depend heavily in his off-season development. If he has indeed increased his jump by 6" then he might be in line to be the next pure rim defender that Coach Self likes and has enjoyed in recent years with Aldrich and Withey. Lucas falls somewhere in between the other two. My answer, Alexander start at Center and Mickelson gets substantial minutes.
Bonus Question - Which unknown is a bigger concern?
My answer - No doubt the PG situation. The road to the Championship starts with an elite PG. Just about every team that has won the National title had an elite PG to lead the team. PG play (and Embiid injury at tournament time) was the Achilles heel of last year's team. Superior PG play, (absent a super start at other position) will get you farther than just about any other position.
I like your numbers. If the end of last season is an indication, Traylor might be in the 9-12 PPG. More importantly, if Frankamp finds his groove from the 3, I can see him being closer to double than low single digits and becoming an important contributor.
Last season, KU did not have a consistent 3-point shooter, although at times we saw glimpses from Tharpe, Frankamp, Wiggins, Mason and Selden (and also Green), but none of them could do it consistently, which in turn gave opposing defenses more leeway. Having a deadly 3 point shooter would help open up the inside game and give the bigs an edge. On paper it looks like this team has the potential of being a good 3-point shooting team, let's hope that at least a couple of players can do it consistently.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
All of us get lost in the darkness
Dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter
Dreamers turn to look at the cars
From "The Pass" by Rush
That would be the band "Rush" and not Rush Limbaugh...:)
More like 8-9?
What nice and refreshing outlook in an age where form and appearance is preferred over substance; I guess the new term is "optics."???
It reminds me of...
All of us get lost in the darkness
Dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter
Dreamers turn to look at the cars
From "The Pass" by Rush
Which is loosely based on Oscar Wilde's quote "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."
My specific questions are:
1.) No. No player in the Bill Self era averaged 15 APG; the closest were Sherron at 14+ and Simien at 13+. all other players were well under that figure
2.) Depends on who the PG is but I would say under 10...unless Fran Mason decides to regress to HS mode and goes back to being a volume shooter :) I just don't think that would happen under Coach Self.
3.) Yes
4) Traylor likely will not play 5, he will play 4. Alexander has the inside track to score the most at the 5; Michelson is more of a defender than a scorer and Lucas somewhere in between.
5.) Trick question. It depend heavily in playing time and attempts.
6.) It depends on how the other players have developed over the summer. If the returning players have made good progress, Svi might not contribute or get much playing time; I see him being a huge contributor in his second year.
I agree with your conclusions. Donovan, Bennett, Smart, Cooley and Miller would seem to have the bigger advantage since they work with HS players. I think Mark Few used to be an assistant on the U19 team but was replaced by Sean Miller. By the way, Sean Miller "played" at Pitt. but currently "coaches" at Arizona; Jamie Dixon is the HC at Pitt. and I don't believe they have any assistants named Sean Miller. :(
A lot of top players come from overseas. The top two players at KU last year were foreign, The last 2 years, the #1 pick in the NBA draft were foreigners, several first round picks were also foreigners; in the last dozen or so years, foreign players Bogut, Bagnani and Yao Ming were also #1 picks in the NBA draft.
I would not mind if KU can establish a steady pipeline of top Euro players; all we need is a couple per year.
I get what you are saying, KU did not have any one even close to replace Embiid so there really was not much Coach Self could do other than to change the game plan to one without him. Embiid is good, really, really good but I would not go as far as calling him a "once in life" type of player. We caught glimpses of his potential but what would have been the real test, did not come to pass due to his injuries. He might well end up being a Hall of Famer...or the next Greg Oden. Let;'shope is not the later.
He will access to the best foreign amateur/college players in the world. Maybe the next Svi or Embiid or Wiggins will decide to transfer to KU. Can you imagine how impressed foreign players will be, seen KU represent the top basketball county in the world? He might not be able to recruit American players in that role but the will hit the mother lode of foreign players.