I don't begrudge him for milking his 15 minutes of opportunity for all it is worth. Every other coach in the country would do the same thing. Next summer KU gets to represent the USA in the World University games and Coach Self and KU should get a lot of exposure...nothing wrong with that.
JayHawkFanToo
13427 posts
If Summer Camp reports are to be believed, Ellis has looked great and shown considerable progress. We will find in a few weeks.
If you remember his freshman year, he showed solid fundamentals and nice technique but was missing shots. At the end of the season, he put everything together and played great on the Bi9 12 tournament and onwards. I am hoping that over the summer, he got the various parts of his game in sync and will see a new and improved Perry Ellis come Fall.
You posted:
I'm a lot more afraid of tyrant thread trolls who demand their own way than any pictures of Bruce Snyder. No malice intended, of course.
and
if you have a problem with the content of a thread, you should ignore the thread, instead of trying to dictate to everyone else your personal preferences.
I f you actually read my post(s), I indicated several times that it was my personal; preference and I did not expect posters to agree with me or demanded they stop posting subject other than KU sports. I wrote:
"I would prefer keeping it mostly KU sports related. Having said that, I am not the forum owner or administrator and whatever he wants to do is fine with me."
and
"Again, I have no say in what threads are posted or not posted here; I am just happy that I have a place where I can go and discuss KU sports"
and...
"...again, my personal opinion and I don't expect other posters to feel the same way, although I am sure many do."
and last but not least...
"These comments are not directed to any individuate but to the forum community at large. No malice is intended only the desire that his forum is the best it can be."
Clearly not the statements a "tyrant thread troll" would make, and I in no way disrespected anyone or belittle their effort, wouldn't you agree?
I only expressed my opinion, which I believe much like you, I am still entitled to do, and did not demand or even ask that topics be stopped in any way shape or form; I simply made a suggestion to go back to what, IMHO, the forum strived to do in the first place. If you want to start threads belittling opposing coaches (and wives), or rivals in general, by all means go ahead, I will simply chose to ignore those threads, much like you can ignore my comments.
"When you get to a fork in the road, take it" - Yogi Berra.
Very nicely done. No amount of coaching can replace a player like Embiid; You can abate the consequences some or a lot, but you cannot replace him unless you have an equally capable player on the bench.
Amen Brother.
Hotel California is not only fantastic music but a symbol of the greed and drug culture of California at the time.
I am of the opinion that we left the pettiness and name calling on the other forum(s) and this one would have civilized discussion on issues pertinent to KU sports (there is a football section after all), more particularly basketball. Name calling other programs, as tempting and easy at it is, strikes me as somewhat juvenile ( I am an older fan after all) and I prefer not to have that type of posts in this forum. Like I said, I don't mind the occasional off-topic topics such as the music thread; however, having a thread dedicated to name calling an opposing coach (and his wife) seems to be over the top...again, my personal opinion and I don't expect other posters to feel the same way, although I am sure many do.
There are plenty of KU basketball related issue, particularly when the new season is almost upon us as @RedRooster pointed out. Let;s concentrate on those and leave the name calling to the other forum(s). Nothing wrong with having animated discussions (and we certainly do) as long as we keep them civilized.
These comments are not directed to any individuate but to the forum community at large. No malice is intended only the desire that his forum is the best it can be.
Awesome tunes Nuleafhawk!!!
Do you know that Black Magic Woman was written by Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac and recorded by them in 1968, 2 years before Santana made it super popular?
I like most songs by Chicago, Eagles, Santana, CCR, The Doobie Brothers, Three Dog Nigh, Fleetwood Mac, Heart, Styx and ZZ Top to name just a few. Jim Croce is my favorite singer with Billy Joel close behind.
"I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that." H.A.L. from 2001: A Space Odyssey.
How about if we post KSU features here:
or here:
Wouldn't those be the more appropriate forums for KSU related stories?
I don't mind the occasional stories about other programs or non-sports relates topics but I would personally would not want them becoming common/daily occurrences since they distract from the main purpose of the forum; I would prefer to keep it focused on KU sports. Again, I have no say in what threads are posted or not posted here; I am just happy that I have a place where I can go and discuss KU sports...mostly.
Don't be have enough K-State with the headlines from the feeds? Must we endure a thread on its coach as well?
Let's try to keep the threads focused on sports, more specifically KU sports, particularly basketball...it is KUBUCKETS after all.
I belong to several other (technical and business) forums and I come here to escape them and get my fill of KU SPORTS, particularly basketball. Can we please skip the other stuff? I am sure there are other forums where non KU related topics can be discussed. I understand occasional reference to other topics, as long as they pertain to the discussion at hand, but I would prefer keeping it mostly KU sports related. Having said that, I am not the forum owner or administrator and whatever he wants to do is fine with me.
Nothing personal and no malice intended.
KU is not alone in fibbing with players listed heights; it is pretty much like the MSRP that nobody really pays. It always amazed me to watch T-Rob and other bigs next to Withey and though they were listed as being only a couple of inches apart, Withey seemed to tower over them. At the NBA combined T-Rob was measured at 6'-7.75".
I am not sure how tall Traylor actually is and other than the coaching staff I doubt anyone really knows, but I know he is not tall enough to play center, even in college. Most of the elite PF in the NBA now are at least 6'-10" and SF are 6'-8" +/- 2". Much like Perry, Traylor's body is more suited to play SF in the NBA although his style of play would seem to be PF all the way. BTW, Perry is lited as being 5 pounds heavier than Traylor...it did surprise me a bit.
If CMU plays 12 man, then KU would win since CMU would be penalized every play for having an extra man on the field, right? :)
You posted:
I don't think our players are dumb by any means, I'm just not sure they were being taught very well. But if people want to say that our new players just don't have the IQ that our other teams have had, then I ask you, who recruited those players? Not Joe Dooley!
I don't believe our players are dumb, I did not say or imply that, in fact when referring to simplifying the play book I said: "it has become more difficult to implement the entire playbook and it has been simplified, some would say dumbed down, quite a bit." Others have used the term dumb down, I prefer not to use it precisely because it invites misinterpretation.
I wrote "How much of it is used depends almost uniquely on the basketball IQ of the players available and not the coaching staff." Again, I very specifically talked about "basketball IQ" and not "IQ" per se. There is a big difference between these two terms. The second refers to a measurement of intelligence and the first refers to the knowledge of the game of basketball that is acquired by studying the game and being taught the proper techniques and strategy of the game by competent coaches. You do not acquire "basketball IQ" overnight or by playing playground basketball. Most coaches will tell you they spend a lot of time at the beginning of the season teaching players the proper way to play team basketball and weaning them from all the bad habits acquired playing in non-organized basketball or poor coaching. Some players, particularly those whose parents are coaches tent to have a much higher basketball IQ by virtue of being exposed to good coaching from an early age. Players like Collison, Hinrich, Reid, Ellis and Frankamp, to name a few, seem to be better prepared for the college level game. Other players, even those that are extremely gifted, such as Sherron Collins, come in very raw, full of bad habits and takes the best part of a season to get them to play the game the right way. In High School they can get away with it based solely in their superior athleticism and inferior competition, but in college the level is much higher and they are competing against equally talented players and raw athleticism alone will not do.
It is a well know fact that Coach Self's play book is more complicated than most and it takes a long time to learn to play it effectively. This is the reason why veteran teams with players that have had more than one season to learn it tend to execute the system better, As I indicated, and with KU having accepted the one and done approach, it is only logical that the system needs to be simpler since you no longer have the luxury and/or assurance that your better players will stay longer than one season and have the time to master the playbook. Again "IQ" and "basketball IQ" are two different concepts as colloquially used. It is possible, make that very likely, that people with very high "IQ" that do not care for sports, actually would have a very low "Basketball IQ" due to their lack of interest and exposure to the game.
Last. some players drop into your lap at the last minute, like Svi, Tarik and Graham, but most are recruited for several year prior to selecting and joining the program. Coach Dooley has been gone for only one year, so it is very likely that every player at KU was either directly or indirectly recruited by him at one time or another. The replacement coaches are every bit as competent and most of them teach only specific positions or specific parts of the game plan; Coach Self teaches the overall strategy and that has not changed. The reason some players seem lost when compared to previous teams is because they have not had enough time to learn the system.; some will never learn. Had Josh Selby, for example, stayed one extra year, I am convinced he would have been a lottery pick and would now be balling in the NBA; instead he left before he was ready and now he is playing in China(???) or can you imagine how much better prepared Ben McLemore would be, had he stayed an extra year? Again,. this is not rocket science; it is the same process every student goes through in college. The first couple of years you learn the basic stuff and in the later years you learn the more advanced material that you will actually use in your chosen field.
Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Ted Owens coached in a time where ADS had all the power and coaches followed instructions. Nowadays, big time coaches like Self wield an inordinate amount of power and ADs will not mess with coaches at that level. Look what happened to Al "Coach Williams crushed me like dove" Bohl.
I believe you are missing my entire point....and yet you make my point, Baylor recruits in Texas BECAUSE it is in Texas; if it would be in North Dakota, then it would have to recruit globally like KU does, but it is not
Why does Baylor need to go recruit 5-star players out-of-state when there are plenty near home? That is the equivalent of going to the grocery store to buy tomatoes when you are growing beautiful ones in your own garden in the backyard. Yes, occasionally you want a different variety but the bulk comes from your own garden. Coaches are always commenting that recruiting out-of-state is very expensive, exhausting, and more importantly, very time consuming and it takes coaching staff away from doing actual work, and you don't do it unless you absolutely have to. I showed you numbers for all the other major programs in Texas and all of them operate much like Baylor; they are not the exception, they are the rule. All Texas programs rely on Texas recruits.
KU "HAS" has to recruit globally, it has no choice since the state does not produce enough players to even supply minor division I teams. The highest rated player in the state is currently ranked 3-stars and would not get an offer from KU (he might be asked to try as a walk-on), maybe Emporia, Washburn, Pitt State or even WSU (after all, they did strike gold with un-ranked Ron Baker) would offer, but definitely not KU.
I believe this topic has been beaten like rented Missouri mule and must mercifully come to an end...hopefully we can agree on this?
Jamari is listed at 6'-8" which means he is closer to 6'-6'. He will play the 4 but more realistically he is more a 3-4 than a 4-5; very few people his size have even played the 4 in the NBA, Barkley being the best known. Maybe Traylor can play the 5 against smaller schools in the non-conference portion of the schedule, but I just cannot see him playing the 5 against the much bigger centers in the conference. Alexander a t6'-9" might be able to play some center, mostly because his heft (250 lbs) allows him to block the middle, but the more natural players at the 5 would be Luca and Mickelson. Michelson had a very good freshman season and while his number did not necessarily dropped down by lot in his sophomore year, he did not show progress either. A lot of it was due to the change on coaching and being force to put weight without the corresponding training to gain the strength needed to carry the additional weight, and the net result was dramatic drop in blocks. With Hudy's training he is hopefully back to being a rim protector.
Here is a good write up on Mickelson's progress...
KU has had excellent rim protectors in the last few years, Aldrich and Withey being the better ones; let's hope that Mickelson can continue the tradition.
Well...they beat Chattanooga, had a nice, convincing win over Purdue (at Purdue) but lost the last game to Syracuse 40-3 almost the same score as KU. The home advantage in college football is between 3 and 4 points, so the teams are pretty evenly matched.
Realistically, this is the best chance for a win KU has the rest of the season. A solid win could give the team confidence and make some future games winnable but a loss would indicate that this is as good as it gets this season and by extension could also mean coach Weis' job.
The main playbook is still the same. How much of it is used depends almost uniquely on the basketball IQ of the players available and not the coaching staff. You have to assume that all member of the coaching staff at KU are more than capable of understanding Coach Self's entire playbook; however, the same cannot be said of all the players.
If you look a the the better teams during Coach Self's tenure, you will see that one thing they had in common was experience and high basketball IQ. With the advent of the one and done players at KU, it has become more difficult to implement the entire playbook and it has been simplified, some would say dumbed down, quite a bit so the younger/newer, less experienced players could execute the game plan. Keep in mind that last season KU lost 3-5th year seniors, 1 senior and 1 second year sophomore...that is a sh_t load of experience and the entire starting team, and the replacement were 6 freshmen who most got considerable playing time including 3 starters...that is a sh_t load of inexperience and perhaps the biggest swing in experience in as far as I can remember. This is the reason why the playbook was simplified
In my opinion, Coach Dooley has been ably replaced at KU and the overall level of coaching, as dictated by the supreme leader, Coach Self, remains the same or maybe even improved.
I guess we agree to disagree. There have been threads in the past (maybe in the other forum) where we have discussed why most of the top ranked players (5 stars) have Baylor in their lists. I agree that most do not end up going to Baylor, but then most do not end up going to KU either.
Baylor has currently 6 players in the NBA including Hesslip that just signed with the Timber Wolves and fully 4 out the 6 do not come from Texas including Quincy Miller who is from High Point North Carolina. There is no question that Baylor has been very successful recruiting high ranked players, particularly in Texas, and while it has had good runs, it has never achieved elite status; coaching probably has something to do with it.
BTW, according to ESPN ranking #1Emmanuel Mudiay, #4 Tyrius Jones, #9 Karl Towns, all 5 star players, had Baylor in their lists.
Again, a good number of the top players in the country come from Texas, so Baylor does not have to go out of state to recruit viable top players and can and does recruit locally the top state players, and has gotten a fair number of them, unlike KU that has to go out of state to recruit top players. As far as I recall, players from Kansas that have played for top division I programs in recent memory (in the 2000s) include Simien, Gray (OU), Reed, Cauley-Stein (UK), Ojole (UNC), Ellis and Frankamp (I might have forgotten a few including Nino Williams whom I don't consider a top players) and of those KU got 4 of them. Compared this number to the number of players from Texas, or California, or Florida and so on that have played for top programs programs and it is not even close.
Again, we agree on some thing on others we just agree to disagree.
I sure like your taste in music; we are definitely of the same generation.
Do you believe any of the Baylor recruits actually selects Baylor because of Scott Drew? We have discussed the conference coaching situation before and I believe is pretty close to unanimous that Scott Drew is the twelfth best head coach in the conference...actually tenth. If you remember, Baylor played better when he was serving his two game suspension than when he was at the helm. There are many assistant coaches in the conference more talented than Scott Drew, which begs the question: why do players go to Baylor? Academics are very good but for elite players this would not be the primary concern...just saying.
As far as recruiting only from Texas and Louisiana, your view is misleading. Because of its shear size. Texas along with other large states such as California, Illinois, New York, New Jersey and Florida produce by far the majority of elite basketball players and it is only natural that they would recruit the top players locally. Add Michigan, Indiana and Ohio and you have probably 90% of the top players in the country. Like many other schools KU recruits Texas and Illinois heavily as well. You go where the players area and Baylor does not need to go far, since most of the prospects are in-state.
Baylor currently has 7 players from Texas, 1 from Louisiana and 6 from other states. In comparison Texas has 11 players from Texas. 1 from Louisiana and 5 from other states. Texas Tech has 6 players from Texas and 8 from other states. TCU, 10 players from Texas and 5 from other states. Texas A&M has 10 players from Texas 4 from other states and 4 foreign players. SMU 6 players from Texas and 8 from other states. As you can see, all the major schools in Texas rely heavily in local players, the way the major schools in California get California players, so Baylor is not different than other schools. Kansas produces a handful of division I players every year and yet KU has 4 Kansas players in the team, including 2 that will see substantial playing time (Ellis, Frankamp), but mostly relies on out of state players. Even Kentucky has 10 out of 16 players from the states I mentioned above.
I do agree that playing time is an important issue for top players, but it is a given that top 20 players (one and done) will get playing regardless (well...almost) of where they go. Lower ranked players (not one and done) will look for programs where they can get playing time while improving their skills (coaching) for a potential NBA career. Unranked players that attend elite programs go there knowing that they will play mostly in practice and a few mop-up minutes here and there, but then the NBA is not in their plans and a degree and the experience is a much bigger factor.
Just my 2 cents.
I like your analysis. Some of the better offensive bigs we have had recently including T-Rob and The Morris twins benefited greatly from having players (Brady, Tyshawn, Elijah, Tyrel, Travis) that could feed them the ball in a position to score. This is why I believe that the key to success starts with elite guards that can manage the game plan and distribute the ball. Look at the USA team in the FIBA tournament; a lot of the success cab be attributed to the superior play of Kyrie Irving that managed the game plan masterfully and ended up being named the Tournament MVP.
The edge KU could have against Kentucky is the play of the Harrison twins. Last year they proved to be very selfish players and they combined to average 5.9 assists and 4.3 turnovers per game; also their basketball IQ is not the greatest and I posted a video where Calipari had to physically push Andrew Harrison into position during an offensive set. Their best attributes are height and athleticism and had they not suddenly gotten hot during the post season, UK does not make it to the finals. The question is: have they learned over the break to play team ball or are they going back to their selfish ways, considering that they will likely be auditioning for NBA scouts? Like all other teams. UK's success starts with guard play and the twins are the key.
To me the biggest concern is PG; you cannot go far in the Tournament without an elite PG. We have two dependable bigs (Ellis and Traylor) and potentially an elite one in Alexander. If Lucas and Michelson contribute to their potential, KU should be OK with the available bigs.
FWIW, the most recent ESPN pre-season ranking:
Has Duke, KU, Kentucky, Louisville and Florida as the top 5 teams, so obviously they think KU can match UK's bigs (I guess we will find out November 18th), and several publication have KU having the top 5 starting line-up. KU also plays top 5 team Florida in Lawrence and hopefully avenges last year's loss.
Now, that is funny!!!
Go home folks, nothing to watch here. The result was pretty much as expected.
Duke finished last year with 10 wins and a Bowl game, ranked #22 and had most of the players coming back.; it has had top 25 votes this season and might be in the top 25 in the next poll. KU, on the other hand, had a poor last season, lost its top two running backs before the start of the season, has not new impact player coming and it is a consensus bottom 25 team...maybe even bottom 10. It does have some promising young players, but that and 99 cents will buy you a cup of coffee at the QT.
Our secondary got burned repeatedly and as I mentioned before, it is not KU's strength, it is it's weakness. Like I said, no one should be surprised by the result.
All I can say is...bring the other fat man back!!!
Agreed.
The previous year WSU made it to the Final Four and came within a whisker of playing for the national title.
Let me start by saying that I like Frankamp and he is one of may favorite players, so my comments are not meant as a put down but as a build up of where his strengths are.
Frankamp is a serviceable PG, he is not an elite PG. To get to the promised land you need an elite PG and Frankamp is not it.
Frankamp can play PG reasonably well, mostly because he is a smart and steady and with good fundamentals he can overcome his physical limitations...up to a point. He can play PG for stretches but if he ends up being the starting PG then we have big problems.
Frankamp is a superior 3 point shooter; a team with National Title aspirations needs a steady 3 point shooter and he can be it. He is similar in this respect to Jeff Boschee who could also play PG but his main job was to be the outside threat the kept defenses honest. and he became a critical component of some of the better KU teams. In my opinion, the question about Frankamp is whether he can create his own shot or do plays need to be designed to get him open and take advantage of his sniper skills; either way, Coach Self needs to take advantage of his skill and find him more playing time.
Of course I could be completely wrong and he ends up being the next Stephen Curry.
As I indicated, Marshall is not popular with KU fans, but it is also true that he can flat out coach.
There is no question that KU would have to go after a big name and coaching at Florida Gulf Coast is the start of a career and not necessarily a steppingstone to KU. Likewise, Manning has a long way to go and prove that he can lead a major program; a successful stint at Wake Forest would help. Coaches such as Mark Turgeon have a much larger resume than Manning and Dooley and even Turgeon would not be considered big time. Jerrod Hasse and Rex Walters are former KU players that have good experience and are slowly building a resume and some day might be candidates but not in the near future.
Garth Brooks only wears Stetson Tyler hats so a Resistol is out of the question.
Maybe we should have a reunion in Lawrence one of these days...
My hope is that by the time Coach Self decides to retire Brad Steven is tired of the prima-donas in the NBA and takes the KU job. I can't think of any other coach that would come even close. At the risk of being pilloried, I will say that Gregg Marshall would also make a good coach but the existing animosity, mostly of his own doing, would prevent him from ever getting the KU job...although stranger things have happened.
Nice analysis but there is one factor that equalizes Sherron and Frank and it is the way fouls were and are called. The way Sherron played, I believe you called it bowling ball, would draw a foul on him immediately even when the decks is stacked in favor of the offensive player; he would be one of the few offensive players that would not benefit from the new rules.. Frank needs only to penetrate and make contact and the defender is called for the foul. I posted before that if defensive wizards RussRob, Mario, Travis, Brandon and others that executed the vaunted Self defense, played with the same rules. they would foul out in the first half, which makes Wiggins defensive prowess that much better, since he was a superior defensive player despite the new foul rules.
I do believe that Frank has the inside track on the PG position and Conner best chance is to play the off-guard much like Jeff Bosche played and was very successful. I like Frankamp a lot and I believe he has solid fundamentals, a good feel for the game, a potentially outstanding three gun (that we have not yet seen) and a great work ethic; however what he lacks (so far) is the physicality/athleticism that other players have and can be a liability on defense. I am hopeful that over the Summer he has worked on this aspect and will show up a much improved physically and with more confidence given his performance on the last couple of games of the season.
Like you and most others, I don't know much about Graham since he was late riser in the rankings and there is not as much scouting information on him as we would expect.. The usual highlight YouTube videos are not good indicators as they only show the beter and not the boneheaded plays or overall game. I am hoping he will be a pleasant surprise.
You are member of the extended Jayhawk family, this is what we do...
Coaches always will take the best player available and if he decides to come to KU, Coach Self will be happy to have him. Having said that, I agree with you that there are other players that would fill the upcoming needs much better.
Because of team needs they both played different positions but their skill set is not that different. Budinger i a good leaper (thanks volleyball) and can rebound, but because he could hit the outside shot he played the 3. Ellis natural position is the 3 and he can hit the three pointer (we have seen that), however, the need at KU was PF so he played that position. I see him spending more time at the 3 this upcoming season, which will make him closer to Budinger. Maybe?
I was able to practice with a S&W .44 Magnum a few times but after a few shots I could do it mostly using the classical 2 handed, arms stretched and locked shooting position; beautiful gun but not just for anyone...of course Inspector Harry Callahan is not just anyone... :)
Glad to hear your dad is doing better.
So sorry for your loss.
Amen to that my friend.
Would Perry Ellis be comparable to Chase Budinger? Budinger played SF for 3 years at Arizona and like Ellis, he was also somewhat of a tweener.
I believe good players will go where the better coaching is...or the money too tempting to pass. Why would players want to go to Waco, TX or Manhattan , KS, just to name a couple? Baylor has fine football coaching and probably money in basketball; it can't possibly be because of Scott Drew. KSU has superior coaching in football so it attracts good player plus the staff is competent enough to spot potential where others don't. Now that Frank Martin is gone, the basketball program will slowly descend into oblivion.
When Illinois had good coaching, it attracted good players. but once Weber took over it went down hill, John Groce is an average coach that got the job by virtue of one magical ride into the sweet sixteen, much like Turner Gill got the job at KU based on one decent season and the results were obviously not good.
If a player chooses a program based on a rapper coming to campus, it tells you a lot about the player's priorities and IMHO, he would not be one I would like to have playing for my team. Maybe I am just old fashioned???
Welcome to the Forum; it is always nice to hear from Missourians that appreciate good basketball. Please post away, it would be interesting to hear your perspective. At times discussion get a little heated but always respectful; I am sure you already know this is one of the more civilized forums around. Again welcome.
I root first for KU, next for my undergrad alma mater. After that for the other state teams including KSU (cannot stand Weber but I liked Fran Martin), then WSU (don't care much for Gregg Marshall but there is no question he can coach). Finally I root for Big 12 teams when playing non-conference foes and after that I really don't care much.
P.S. I also root for every team that plays UK or MU.
I guess he will be listed at 6'-10" by KU ...so he can probably play some center? :)