@BeddieKU23 said:
They are not going to play through mistakes unless they don’t make them.
Love that sentence!
ParisHawk
838 posts
@HighEliteMajor said:
@ParisHawk Where have you heard that the NCAAs are Macro? Who would say such a thing? And "been there done that"? What idiot would say that? I can’t think of one.
I thought you said the NCAAs are "Macro", meaning an overarching goal. Did you mistype there?
I used "been there done that" to express the attitude of those who think we've had plenty of Conference titles and don't care that much if we get more.
Anyway, I like this perspective you have brought here. It’s a line of thinking that rarely is discussed. The possibility that the NC really isn’t Self’s singular, ultimate goal.
I think the NCAA Championship is Self's "ultimate" goal but not his singular one. You really see the regular season as a way to prepare the team for March (and get a high seed) - that's it. Self values the regular season for itself, not just as a means to an end.
I never said what my personal view is: I value the regular season and the Conference title streak, not just the NCAA tournament.
@jaybate-1.0 Wait: what about Josh Selby? #1 Rivals.
It's one thing to have different goals, and another to share the same goal but differ on the best way to achieve it.
Sometimes I read that the only worthy goal is the NCAA Championship - Conference titles are "been there, done that." The NCAAs are "macro", everything else is "micro".
Sometimes it is implied that even the NCAAs are "micro" - the "macro" is getting high-level recruits in following years.
Most, but not all, who argue for more playing time for Diallo and Bragg base their arguments on the "macro" goals.
Can't we all agree that those are not Self's priorities?
Sure Self wants to win the NCAAs, but in the meantime he cares about conference titles. Who can deny that?
I think it would be more fair to analyze Self's actions in the light of his priorities, not ours. Differing on what goals matter is a valid but different discussion.
@justanotherfan Not to forget, the 2008 team was the 2007 team - one year later.
Bring back all the non-seniors next year and we'll have something like the 2008 team.
On the other hand, our 2008 opponents had experienced talent too. Those teams are rarer this year.
@HighEliteMajor said:
THE GOAL IS TO WIN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. EVERY MOVE SHOULD BE MADE WITH THAT IN MIND.
Is that a true statement? How can you prove it?
You are good at facts. What is factual about that statement?
@Texas-Hawk-10 Mononucleosis?
@jaybate-1.0 Instead of "next" you could have said "antepenultimately"! How many chances does one get in a lifetime?
I don't upvote every post, but these opponent threads with campus shots, etc. are killers! They alone are worth the price of admission to this site!
@Texas-Hawk-10 said:
[Self's] priority from the 5 is rebounding and defense.
Check out this article from KUSports: http://www2.kusports.com/weblogs/smithology/2015/dec/18/kansas-defense-not-living-up-to-bill-sel/ ↗ ↗
In particular this sentence:
So far this season, only Mickelson, Diallo, Graham and Mason have shown consistent ability to create havoc defensively.
Mickelson's steals are sort of blocks: he blocks passes.
Look at him on defense: when his man is back to the basket, he always reaches around to prepare for a deflection of an incoming pass. More than once he has poked away those passes.
I don't remember Withey being so disruptive in guarding his man.
On the other hand; Withey's blocks were sort of steals: the ball stayed in bounds and often wound up in KU's hands.
Coach Self, please continue to play Mickelson the minutes he deserves! Only thus restore balance to the Force you can!
@jaybate-1.0 please list prior virtual winners as examples of how you judge. Kevin Young? Christian Moody?
Which is more important, the lowness of the foundation or how high above the foundation the player got?
@ralster said:
@HighEliteMajor I will ask your opinion on "best perimeter group ever", and ask if Selden+Mason+Graham+(any 4th bench player) is > than Rush + Chalmers + RussRob + Sherron off the bench…?
Maybe the difference of opinion comes from numbers: @HighEliteMajor is not limiting himself to 4 perimeter players. Add Rodrick Stewart to your 2008 list and Greene+Svi to his.
Even then, I have a hard time disagreeing with you because of Rush: very good rebounder from his position, lockdown on-the-ball defender and just tireless. At the end of games, he defended the other team's money guy without breathing hard.
If NewSelden can keep up his energy, aggressiveness, health and shooting then maybe...
Now if you limit the comparison to offense there is a lot to like today.
@jaybate-1.0 said:
What about his myth makes him seem a hacker to you?
Nothing very profound, just the Trojan Horse.
@jaybate-1.0 Love the Iliad and Odyssey references, but I think Odysseus today would bend and break, not be bent. He is history's most famous hacker after all.
@JRyman said:
I have brought it up before about our bigs, including Ellis of never passing out of the paint or interior passing.
Didn't you just love the Morris twins passing to each other? Beautiful!
Extremely enjoyable post by @HighEliteMajor and intriguing suggestion by @RockkChalkk about the possible influence of Aaron Miles.
@DoubleDD said:
as great as Coach has been in the regular season he has been just as bad in the tournament.
That is an exaggeration, but I see your point.
I have a partial explanation that I keep repeating, but no one seems to pick up on it.
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KU has the best home court advantage in sports.
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That means in more than half our games we have an advantage that translates to extra wins and higher seeds than we would otherwise have.
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So every year we go into the NCAA Tournament overrated (especially by us)!
Our home field advantage inflates our perception of our worth, and makes our recent NCAA history appear worse by comparison.
This doesn't explain anything about Self's performance, but partly explains our perception of his performance.
@DoubleDD said:
Yet in the tournament Coach is nothing but average.
In statistics "average" can be misleading. The important thing is the standard deviation.
Self's average is somewhere in the second weekend. Suppose he upped his average to Elite 8 but never did worse or better than that? Would that be better than a 3-1 record in the Final Four?
I think we should ask ourselves what exactly is the source of our miscontent.
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Is it not enough NCs? In that case early flameouts don't matter as long as we win another NC.
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Or is it too many first weekend losses?
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Or is it the way we lose?
Personally, I think with our seeds we should get to the second weekend, and I'm disappointed when we don't.
As for the way we lose, I don't know which is worse: losing to Stanford when we shouldn't have, or losing to WSU when we should have. Then there was the "Nutcracker" game against Michigan...
Self gets another NC and he is the only KU coach in history with multiple NCAA championships. Then the early losses will be unimportant.
some aliases mostly post after KU losses, or misfortune
It's better than the old site when some aliases mostly posted to criticize your longer contributions.
I have an older PC that is still scrolling through that stuff...
@Texas-Hawk-10 said:
Which is usually 6-7 games so about the same.
Morningstar missed two exhibition games and nine regular season games. Semester finals ended December 18th and KU played its 10th game against Michigan State December 19th.
@ralster said:
this is Self’s worst penalty
Morningstar: suspended the entire first semester after a DUI.
Dubya went to Yale, not Harvard?
@drgnslayr said:
I’m just measuring the crowd who seems to care a lot more about this coming March over anything from the past.
So every year let's just trade last year's title for this year's. We'll only ever have one title but it'll be right now.
After all, what's so special about 2016? 8 years from now it will feel like 2008 does now.
In other words, those who don't care about the past shouldn't care about the present or the future either, since they are just waiting to be pasts.
@Lulufulu KU didn't "surprise" people that much in 2008. We were a 1 seed too: all 4 1 seeds made it to San Antonio that year.
We did surprise UNC a bit though...
@drgnslayr I'm all for anything that has any practical purpose at all.
During the season, Self has to make choices. He makes them based on his priorities.
Your question really has to do with priorities: must we keep the streak alive even if it wears down our key players and lessens our chances in March, or should we treat the season as a long preparation for the national tournament?
In that sense, your question is meaningful, and many of the answers took it that way.
Here's a "trading" question: would Self trade his Adidas money for a Nike stack?
Geez. I would trade a ring for an end to all these hypothetical "choose" questions!
@DCHawker said:
Self loves the guy and understandably so, but I think it blinds him to the reality on the court.
I have a hard time buying that Self is blind to anything.
I think it's his will, not his intelligence.
There is a factor in Self's motivation that we are not getting (or not giving enough weight to), and that is why we don't understand his actions.
Over the years I have noticed Self's loyalty to 5-year players. Accept a redshirt and you're in; refuse one and you're likely on your way out.
One thing I would advise incoming players: if Self talks to you about a redshirt, you know you're going to take one - either at KU or the year after you transfer.
@HighEliteMajor said:
@ParisHawk I would think so given that Stanford took away quite effectively our ability to score at the rim. They collapsed on the entry. We forced shots. If they could take away the scoring at the rim and disrupt three point shooting to such a degree, I can't imagine why they lost one game that season.
Haven't you been saying that this year we should have one of the best perimeters in the nation?
Shouldn't one of the best perimeters in the nation be better at:
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Hitting the 3 point shot
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Setting up teammates for the 3 point shot?
You seem to imply that the difference between the Vandy win and the Stanford loss was simply luck. So you don't think the perimeter is better after all?
Quit bashing our Bigs. They’re all we’ve got.
I thought @HighEliteMajor was bashing Self for playing some Bigs over others.
Isn't Mickelson a Big? Isn't Bragg a Big? Isn't Diallo a Big?
we were 5/16 from three vs. Stanford when we lost to a similarly tall team, and had the same issues. Last night we were 8/16 from three.
Point taken, but were our looks of the same quality? If we got better looks last night, then that was a factor in making a better percentage.
I would hope that Mason, Graham and a driving Selden will allow for higher percentage 3 point looks this season.
@JayHawkFanToo said:
Pretty standard procedure when there is a finding that he received improper benefits, not a big deal, really...
Come on, you know that is not the point.
The criticism is of the finding, not the paying back.
Tell us how the NCAA can "find" there were improper payments without ever having interviewed the payer. How did the NCAA know about the $165?
@HighEliteMajor Tarik Black had some moments!
Brady Morningstar was twice over the legal limit, etc.
Another thing about the Brady case is that Boot Camp had just disbanded and Self had lectured the team about toeing the line after the fights with the football team. Brady picked exactly the right time to get the book thrown at him.
In real life, the only new coach who could possibly be better than Self is an improved Self.
@HighEliteMajor and others are not calling for another coach, they're suggesting adjustments to improve the current one.
During the recent gale of criticism, I have been piling on a little, but I am such a featherweight that no one felt a thing.
There are some things I don't understand, mainly "Fool's Gold" and "Energy". Usually when I don't understand someone's behavior, either I don't have all the information or I don't fully understand that person's motivation.
Maybe Self believes in the Big 12 more than he believes in the NCAA? Maybe he just doesn't care as much anymore about a tournament that enriches such an organization.
Personally, I wish we could find another end of year tournament to play in.
NCAA, Thanks for the chip!
@DCHawker Is it fair to judge recruiting on the basis of later injury?
As for "baggage", I admit there should be due diligence by the coaching staff and there may have been some problems overlooked or risks taken.
I'm not sure into whom we "lucked".
While we have missed on many highly rated recruits, we have gotten some recruits that have turned out to be better than their ranking:
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Embiid (who shot to the top of the hype pyramid after he committed to us, or at least after Self made him priority #1)
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Mason
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Graham
As for bigs, in the last 3 years we have gotten 1 or 2 highly rated bigs each year. Each year there has been a disappointment due to eligibility or injury, else this discussion would be different.
I am not saying you are wrong, but I would scale the criticism back a notch.
If Diallo were cleared to play and we were 2-0, many conversations on this forum would be quite different, even if all our concerns were just as valid.
@Texas-Hawk-10 said:
@ParisHawk What about Embiid? I said from NYC and as far as I know, Embiid was in the central Florida area.
Well, Norm found Embiid, showed him to Self and then recruited him.
You said "from NYC" and you also said "keep only Townsend".
Am I only allowed to defend Norm on the basis of NYC?
[In 2008] Our 3 PGs was a strength and a weakness at the same time. We couldn’t focus squarely on one guy to be “the man.”
That just goes to show how amazing Collins was for us: accepting to be a substitute and "fit in" in 2008, then turning into "Alpha Leader" his junior and senior years.
Norm is supposed to have great ties to NYC because of his time at St. John’s but all that’s yielded us is the Diallo mess.
Hey, what about Embiid?
I would definitely keep Norm!
So how do we plug this bleeding & get the embargo off our backs?
Every single Williams Fund member tells Zenger: "It's Adidas or me, you choose."
@drgnslayr said:
The second we get to where we stop running offense, he becomes totally lost.
What an incredible thing to have to say! Deliberately play basketball in such a way that fundamentals become a handicap!
And people say Self doesn't play zone. Yes he does: Twilight Zone!
This is not a direct reply, but along the same lines I wish someone would ask Coach Self:
"What do you care about?"
Winning the game at hand?
Preparing for Conference?
Preparing for March?
Getting a good seed?
Helping a former homeless kid?
What are your priorities?
Self can't be that stupid or that rigid, can he? Maybe choices we can't fathom come from motives that are not clear to us.
@Statmachine In Self's tenure, the 9th man has never gotten significant minutes except for injury. Rodrick Stewart started when Rush was injured, and when Rush came back he hardly saw the floor.
I'm talking about the whole season here. Self tends to go with a longer rotation during the fall semester, so I do hope more than 8 players get their chance against MSU.
Depth + experience.
This gets back to jaybate's question about comparing this team to 2008.
This year's team may have as much talent and experience as the NC team, but spread among more players.
That means less talent on the floor at any one time, and less "net" talent if some folks never leave the bench during serious minutes.
That is why jaybate asked to compare the top 7 players only.
Do you really think this year's 9th man will play a significant role during games this season?
Speaking of fouls, in their first game MSU committed 14 fouls. The starters committed 4 fouls total. Their opponents committed 11 more fouls than they did - same margin as in our first game.
Maybe Izzo is just as aware of the rule changes as Self...
I'm older than 49 and I can tell you that fear of nuclear war predated the Carter era.
Ever heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis?
What was new in the late '70s? Not fear, but the lack of pride in our country after years of demonstrations, loss of a war, Watergate, the Iran hostages, etc.
Reagan, among other things, was lucky: the Iran hostages were freed the day he was inaugurated, which belittled Carter and helped Reagan start afresh. The first space shuttle landed safely soon after, and pride began to swell in our breasts again - two things that Reagan didn't do, but inherited.
The French sometimes asked me what we Americans saw in Reagan. I always answered "he was the only President in my lifetime who, when he said 'I don't remember', we believed him."
@HighEliteMajor can certainly defend himself, but I will say that if he is criticizing anyone I think it is Self. Traylor is not choosing to play less well than Mickelson, but Self is choosing to play Traylor when he could be playing Mickelson.
By the way, Self would never tell Traylor or Lucas to transfer because they have redshirted, so transferring would mean losing a year of eligibility. Self has never forced the transfer of a former redshirt.