Sounds like you would make a great Husky fan!
SoftballDad2011
406 posts
Given the outrage expressed herein over a 1-1 start to our season, how do you think our message board would have handled the 4 14 losses seasons, 4 missed NCAA Tournaments (with two one and dones and a 1-1 in their most recent 9 appearances) and the NCAA scrutiny that UConn has endured since 2003?
Great team, great history. But also a great example of a boom or bust.
Even one of their well earned titles took an 11 game win streak because they were in the play in game of their conference tournament and likely wouldn't have made the big dance without a top 2 finish in their conference tournament.
"START" being the key word in your post that possesses a clear lack of understanding Of the concept of cause and effect.
I don't disagree. Good points.
Over the long haul, a strong defensive mind set will win a lot of games.
But on any given day you might run in to a team that is so hot from the floor or so effective at executing their game plan that you have to be able to out score them.
Ali F. and Nothrrn Iowa was a great example of that. They were a good team, but on that given day they were so hot that they could have beaten anyone.
That is the beauty and the agony of the NCAA tournament. It is a six game season with short window in which to game plan (get the players adequately schooled) for personnel and schemes you aren't familiar with.
I too get frustrated. To me, a great team uses every available tool in their tool belt when conditions warrant.
We don't do that well.
Coach Self is a system guy who leads with defense.. In an 18 game conference season - especially in a double round robin format - that grind it out mentality works because most teams in the conference can't win on the road and because of famialiarity every coach knows what the other coach is going to do before it happens. And if you have a bad loss or two, the law of averages have time to play out. And that favors Self's game plan and approach.
In a one game winner take all format, a system guy will get burned by a hot team, a better executing team or unexpected game plan, because all we have to go to is our bread and butter.......and on some days that isn't going to be good enough. Especially on a day when we can't throw the ball in an ocean, let alone make a basket (like vs MSU on Tuesday).
I thought Coach Self would become more flexible after gimmick defenses allowed us to steal wins from Purdue and NC State in our 2012 run.....games that we didn't deserve to win, but did because he caught them by surprise when he threw the triangle in.
But for whatever reason, he hasn't. I used to think he didn't do those things in the regular season so that there would be no tape on it for other teams to study so that we could use it in the tournament.
But now I just think Bill Self's confidence in his system gives him the Coach Hayes syndrome that said everyone knows what we are going to do.......but we are going to do it so well they can't stop us.
The OAD movement made this less effective because those guys don't stick around long enough to truly learn the nuances of the approach to execute it well enough.
But I also think the OAD movement has caused a change in the mindset of the typical 50-100 ranked kids.
No longer do these guys have the patience or willingness to come to a school like KU because of its history and sit on the bench for 2-3 years until it is their turn. Most of them want immediate gratification, so they go to an Alabama or a Mississippi State where the can get immediate playing time.
That creates a real dilemna for Self. OADs don't stick around long enough and he can't get enough talented 3-4 year players who are willing to work hard, learn their roles and earn their playing time to keep the pipeline full of system guys that can execute well enough to make unstoppable.
Plus because of the greater distribution of talent there is more parity now than ever before, which makes apparent upsets in the NCAA tournament even more likely.
Frustrating, no doubt.
But the fact we have done what we have done and remained consistently successful despite the change in the landscape of college basketball is a testament to Coach Self.
The girl friend analogy offered early about Roy Williams is a great one, because I would contend that while he was here that he was just as much of a system guy and just as stubborn as Bill is. It is just that those memories have faded and we now only remember the big picture stuff
I get frustrated. I cuss at the TV. I cuss at Bill Self too.
But at the end of the day I do think what he has done is incredible. He is never going to be satisfied with three or four years of mediocrity in an effort to load up for a deep tournament run every four or five years. He is going to get the guys he can get and he is going to run his system because he know that it will win 80% of the time and give him a chance to advance in the tournament every year.
I admire that.
I am a KU Fan who is estatic with the blue blood heritage here. And the consistent excellence that we can rely on as KU Fans.
And I see no no reason to run off someone that has helped keep us there.
Take your personal vendetta and go troll somewhere else.
You have been a member of this board for two years and only have about 90 posts. About a third of them have come in the past week while calling for Self's head.
Pretty obvious you have an ax to grind.
But as an FYI if you are going to troll, it is a lot more effective if you at least put in enough time and effort to get your facts accurate, so that you don't show your true colors when you get your panties in a bunch and have to redirect the discussion when someone calls you on your inaccuracies.
No not satisfied with the early exits. Just enough of a realist to know that from a historical perspective what we are experiencing is nothing unusual for us or for any other team in America.
astute enough to know that no other coach could have done what we have done with the cards that have been played.
And enough of a KU fan to support our coach and our team through good and bad.
@AsadZ said:
Bate, I really enjoy your posts however I don't understand the reasoning behind this post. Your defense of Self is getting old. While Self is still .821 at KU look at the trend for the past few seasons, going downhill. Self has been a great coach but it is clear that he is losing the edge - continued recruiting misses, early tourney exits to lower quality teams, drop in winning %, increase in home losses etc. And my biggest issue with Self is with his Rigid nature and inflexibility. For the past two years he has failed to use his talent to the advantage while forcing the players to play with his way. With Self its like My Way or the Highway.
After the WUG I was hopeful that he will make a change in his style by allowing more freedom to his players when he said something like I learned a lot from the experience however so far its the same old Self. Extremely Frustrating. This has been the biggest issue for me with Self and I wont be surprised if other fans feel likewise. And Self has to be blamed for the BG fiasco currently happening. Self is hurting KU BB.
At this point KU BB and Self will be better off if he moves on. KU BB need a fresh start.
Increase in home losses?
He lost in Allen Field House 6 times between his arrival and the end of the 2006-2007.....he has lost three times at home since 2/3/07 and was undefeated at home last year..
And as a college head coach it is completely his call if he chooses to
Make it his way or the highway.......after all he is ultimately responsible for anything that happens under his watch..
Bill's avg wins per season is around 29 games......as per Dickie V on every KU broadcast he does.
Bill plays a tougher schedule, largely because the Big 12 is now a double round robin, whereas before it was home and away vs the northern tier of the Big 12 and a single game against the southern tier.
But Bill's non conference schedule is also tougher. Roy liked playing directional schools early in the year.
Can't speak as to why we don't blow teams out now like we did with Roy. We are no longer a transition heavy offense with an aggressive full court press defense that led to run outs, which is probably part of it. .
I have also wondered if Bill manages the game to keep it close so as to keep the pressure on, but I have nothing to support that.
Roy's NCAA Tournaments
!image.png ↗
For what it is worth I don't think he goes to the NBA for reasons exactly like he just experienced with BG.........multi-millionaire prima donnas and Bill Self would not be a good fit.
Here is my litmus test......if' he is gone and has enough of a bad taste in his mouth about the nature of his departure to finally answer T Boone's calls and land in Stillwater,.......do we want to face him 2-3 times a year!?!?!?!
Uh........NO!
How long and contentious of a tirade must it have been for his parents to be summoned from the stands?
If it were fleeting comments made in the heat of the moment that wouldn't have happened.
Bad that his mom and dad had to bear witness to it, but kudos to His Dad For handling it the way he has......whether it was said tongue in cheek or not, he basically said if BG had handled it correctly and had kept his mouth shut he'd be in Maui right now.
But.......Calipari also has two vacated final four appearances!
And Kentucky has a few seasons (3, I think) in which they vacated wins.
But some of these "fans" think those are the yardsticks we should be using measure our success with!?!???
My bad Kentucky "only" has one season with vacated wins.
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2015/DivI.pdf ↗
We have "only" won 3 NCAA titles since our first NCAA appearance in 1940.......but having won our most recent in 2008 just doesn't cut it.
We have "only" been to 14 Final Fours since 1940........but have been to two since 2008.......just doesn't cut it!
Self is "only" 27-11 (70.1%) as a KU coach in the NCAA tournament.....and that includes two 0-1 and three 1-1 performances......but he's all washed up......hasn't been to a final four in the past three seasons!
@jayballer54 nailed it........SPOILED!
And oh by the way the Bucknell & Bradley debacles that was the last "apocalypse" that we endured were sandwiched by Elite 8 runs......and we won the title two seasons after the Bradley loss.
Take a deep breathe, show some patience as we wade through these devastatingmy disappointing 26-28 win seasons ., show your head coach the respect he has undoubtedly earned.......and enjoy the ride.
Great points and well articulated.
I guess I was trying to make three points in my post.
1). Our recruiting has been solid. We have gotten decent numbers of highly touted kids.
2). Our results have been consistently outstanding, relative to any other program in the country since the time Larry Brown left.
3). That in my belief if we continue allowing emotion and unrealistic expectations to drive our opinion of whether we are a good program that not only are we in for disappointment, but the witch hunt mentality that has been building for a few years and is now reaching a crescendo is going to be what creates it ........ a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
We've been good for a long time and there have been times when Self has held it together with duct tape and baling wire and still kept us in the upper tier.......times that would have seen other top programs spiral out of the elite for a bit until they could regroup and re-emerge.
Duke (to the least extent aside from us), Kentucky, Indiana, Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, UNLV, Florida, UConn.......they have all been there. Some of them more than once since the last time we had it bad.
The remarkable thing is that we had no correction following a coaching change. And that Self has reinvented our team's identity a couple of time without falling off the top tier.
We've had it cobsusistently good for longer than any other team in the country.
We've had it good for so long that we have an entire generation of KU fans that have never seen it bad.......or even average for that matter.
It can and will get worse than a couple early exits since our last final four.
And let me ask this.........who on this message board has any faith whatsoever that Sheahon Zenger is capable of hiring a coach capable of maintaining the uninterrupted success we have experienced (and that still hasn't been good enough for many of you)?
So let's be unrealistic in our expectations, run off the most consistently successful coach in the game since John Wooden and see where it takes us.
Just saying it can get worse a lot easier than it can get better.
We were in Chicago this week......which means Snacks had return to (or near) the scene of the crime!
Ok. Then to clarify, the recent TEAMS haven't met your expectation?.
Because you took exception to my post that stated our recent RECRUITING CLASSES have been solid.
We have had a fair number of highly touted recruits in recent years.
Unfortunately, due to some bad luck and more predominately, because the OAD mindset doesn't work well in our system, the teams that had those recruits on it did not meet your expectations.
The OAD movement has not been good to us.
unfortunately it will be difficult to wean ourself off the OAD train without creating air pockets in the pipeline that will lead to average seasons (average for most teams......but horrible seasons for us ......like only 18 or 20 win season horrible).
To bleed out those air pockets we will have to go back to having a core group of 50-100 ranked kids that are augmented with the occasional 20-40 ranked guys and suffer through some rough seasons until those freshman and sophomores become juniors and start to get it......and until the pipeline provides a recurring annual supply of battle tested juniors who have paid their dues during the past two seasons.
Self hates to lose at all so I don't think he has been able to go go cold turkey and entirely quit the OAD approach. So he gets who can and comes up short of meeting expectations......so says many of us.
To me it is funny. Not funny ha ha, but funny in a sad, painful way
But if you go way back before Self started landing OADs our success wasn't all that different than it is now..... And fans were bashing him because we weren't keeping up with the Joneses by landing the Tyreke Evans of the world.
So in comes Xavier, Selby BMac, Wiggs......And to this day we still fret everytime Kentucky and Duke repeatedly load up with presumed OADs that we missed on like Jabari Parker, Okafor, Julius Randle,
now when we do land a Wiggins or an Alexander we complain because they didn't take us to the promised land and because they leave too early.
But now when we sign a decent middle of the road 3-4 star prospect who will likely be a four year player our message boards light up people questioning why on earth we would sign a Lightfoot or a Mason or a Graham. And how are we supposed to compete with Duke, Kentucky, Memohis with guys like that.
Comical really.
The winningest program in America between 2000-2009 and third or fourth winningest if you stretch it from 2000-2015. 11 straight conference titles, 26 straight invites to the big dance. And on and on.
But it's been three seasons since we made a final four and seven seasons since we won a title.
And now that the rest of the Big 12 has elevated their game to keep up with us - plus now that we play every team on the road every season- we're complaining that Self' s recent road record is sub .600......too bad we don't get to pound teams like the lower tier of the SEC, ACC or Pac 10 and pad those records, huh?
Pretty rough stretch, huh?
This must be what it feels like at Mizzou, or Iowa State or UCLA or Indiana or any other team that's never done it or that has and since fallen off the map and is now working their way back........not! Our rough stretch is beater than 99% of DI team's glory days!
I'll still cheer for KU.....even if all the chicken little prognosticators on here are right and the sky is indeed falling.
I've been a die-hard Royals fan since my Dad and I started listening to games on the radio in 1976 when I was five years old.
Now that 29 years was a rough stretch.......but the last two years made it entirely worth it.
Exactly!
Or that those schools don't know what their all-time mark against the Jayhawks is?
There is a difference in judging a recruiting class in hindsight versus judging a recruiting class as it is being put together and choices are being made as to whether I want this guy or that guy.
Pretty harsh to say it is a poor recruiting class after the fact because a recruit's parents took out a loan or because an injury for the 7 footer knocked him out of the tournament and he was better than you thought so he left school earlier than expected.
But most of were pretty excited when we landed a Diallo, Wiggins or an Alexander.
Just as we would have been if we had landed one of this year's big names.
You're probably right.
Playing the #1 strength of schedule two years running with young teams and being at much less than full strength during both early exits probably didn't have anything to do with those losses.
Should we have won more of those games even without all of our players?......ABSOLUTELY!
Did any of those losses come about because of poor recruiting classes......NO!
Great recruits both years......just didn't stay healthy/stay eligible/stick around long enough for us to truly prosper from them.
"Well we had the # 1 and #3 selections in the NBA draft and brought in a pretty good senior transfer, along with some kids named, Selden, Mason and Greene..........but all in all it just wasn't a very good recruiting class"!?!?
Great comments.
I agree completely. Certainly in the best interest of the student athlete to be with his team right now .....for a lot of reasons.
@Texas-Hawk-10
Norm was the lead recruiter on Wiggins. And if memory serves was also involved in the discovery of Embiid.
I believe the log jam of talent on our roster and the uncertainty of who - if anyone - will declare for the draft typically hurts us in the early signing period. This year is more of a mystery, given the holes we will have.....but Colesby Bragg and Lucas will still already be entrenched so there are bodies in line and Self does reward returners......
That being said, there has been nothing wrong with our recruiting classes......even if most of them come in the spring.
BMac, Traylor, Anderson....I am missing someone.
Wiggins, Mason Black and Embiid
Graham Svi Alexander Oubre
Bragg Diallo Vick Colesby
Sure some of them didn't pan out the way we wanted/expected but they were
Still great signings on the day they happened.
Would be nice to get fall commits......but our overall classes have been fine.
Welcome back
Good point and Not just Thanksgiving......, but anytime that everyone on the team goes on a week long excursion and he can't. Kind of crappy.
If he can't go hopefully someone will make arrangements for him campus will be dead over the holiday
Was I the only one that was afraid that KU STEVE had bumped his head while diving into the concrete pond and forgot his log in?
Wonder if they make Hawaiian shirts for 6'9" dudes who have a 7'4" wingspan?
If the NCAA isn't going to clear him, they could at least let him enjoy an all expense trip to the islands with his team.
I agree with you a lot of your points.
And I know I am only preaching to one or two people in the choir box.
It's all about expectations.
And if we don't meet them, it's certainly ok to be upset or to place blame.
But for a fool to renounce his support for KU because we lost a game is assanine, let alone the second game of the year to a quality opponent.
Out of curiosity, let me ask this.
If we had lost to Purdue or NC State......both games we probably should have won but were lucky to have done so......would that 2012 team have been remembered as over achievers or chokers?
What if Curry takes the final shot and Davidson advances instead of us....... Still a great season?
Or Mario misses the three and Calipari beat us? Are we content to losing to the better team like you were in 2012?
All about expectations and perceptions. And again, nothing wrong with being disappointed ........but if you are a real KU fan, then still support them tomorrow.
We just need to understand and accept that almost every season is going to end in disappointment for our team.......and for the fans of 315+/- other DI BBall teams too.
@jayballer54 well said.
I understand completely.
But my point is that would the people complaining be content with Izzo's 7 final fours.......or would they still be complaining because we only won a single title?
Based on what we see and read here, there would still be people saying I'd trade all seven of those final fours for one more title.
And others would be saying if we are that frickin good in March why in the heck can't we win a conference title more than once every ------- years.
Sure it could be better. But at KU the likelihood of it getting worse is just as possible. And unfortunately it might take Self going to the NBA for some to figure that out.
Great comments. And thank you for validating some of my thoughts.
You got my point.
I am all for winning, being passionate, cussing when we don't play well, dissecting the coulda/woulda/shoulda, arguing strategy, wondering why we didn't do this or that........
But I am also for kissing her goodnite no matter how mad you are , hugging her when you wake up tomorrow, knowing she finds a way to get it right 82% of the time even if she isn't at her best, recognizing that year in and year out she is one of the best out there and knowing that it would be nearly impossible to replace her.
Professing one as a KU fan, but proclaiming a divorce in a public forum because she isn't the best every single time just blows my mind.
Exactly.
And that tournament run is based as much on uncontrollable variables as it is about talent.
Good comments.
I didn't think we looked great, maybe not even good. But we still controlled the game for 35 minutes +/-. Against a team that will likely be a top 10 team for most of the season. And yes they were missing players. But Valentine played out of his mind too.
Hard to base whether we will or won't make arun on a one game sample size. MSU wouldn't have been on many people's final four list after last season's loss to KU. But they did it.
And that we never sign anyone early.........except Bragg
Or when the say i'd be happy if we made the Elite 8 or Final Four more often.........but then get angry and stay that way for years when we lose in the finals to Syracuse......to Arizona, to VCU........
News flash.......the better team doesn't always win every game .......and if winning 82% of your games over the past 12 seasons isn't good enough, winning 90% of them won't be either.
I don't like it that we lost a game, especially when it was a game we had in the bag only to pee away.
None-the-less I am always amazed at the whiners and haters who choose to bash our team after a loss.
The KU Jayhawk men's basketball team is the most consistently successful team in college basketball during the past quarter century......winning percentage, consecutive NCAA tournament berths, conference titles, consistently ranked in the top 20..........
We are the epitome of consistent success that 99% of NCAA DI basketball programs would sell (and some have) their soul to achieve.
If you choose to compare actual results to your expectations.......you will be almost always be disappointed. Only one top 20 team wins their last game of the year. Only one team in the last 40 years +/-has gone undefeated. Many teams advance to final fours but fall prey to the boom and bust cycle that is the norm.
like his approach or not Bill Self will be in the Hall of Fame.
I wish he was more embracing of change and would cater to the skill set of his roster too.......but I have to admit that admire him for sticking to his beliefs and principles too. Takes a pretty confident man not to trash what he believes in and cater to the OAD movement............people who are only coming to your program to use it for their benefit and gain so they can leave a year later.
What is the old country song lyric? If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.........,
If the pasture always looks greener, by all means feel free to jump the fence.........
Maybe your new team will win a title or two more than KU over the next 20 years.......but unless your new team is Duke Kentucky Michigan State or North Carolina you likely won't enter every season for the next 10 years with a legitimate reason to expect an elite 8 or better finish........and even if one of those elites are your new team, be sure to savor the taste of that greener grass when Robert Morris knocks you out of the NIT. Or how Izzo gets you to 7 Final Fours but can't win the big one any more often than Self. Or when OAD after OAD leaves your program without winning you any more titles than KU had since 2008.
Just my perspective ........embrace the passion. Expect the best. but Love it or leave it.
Just quit calling yourself a KU fan if you are going b!tch, whine and threaten to give up after every loss or after early exit from the big dance.
But after you have spent some time in that greener pasture be sure to have the maturity to admit that had your annual expectations been realistic and had you been a true fan who is grateful for what you had (instead of expecting more) that maybe the good ol' Crimson and Blue wasn't that bad after all.o
@RockkChalkk we were 2 for 10 at one point in the game and as you said we missed several on our last possession.
I do not believe we are a great three point shooting team when we are hoisting contested shots.
I do believe we have a number of people who can light it up when they have their feet set and receive a pass.
I saw several times last nite when BG wanted to hoist a shot but couldn't because the defense closed out too quickly.
I believe the three needs to be a viable part or our Arsenal..
I do not believe we can expect the three to be our saving grace......especially against a team like MSU who is capable of playing solid man-to-man defense.
Our best success will come from shots that are created as a part of a multi-faceted approach......high-low, dribble drive, etc.......when the defense is forced to commit to stopping one attack at the expense of leaving another unguarded.
My guess would be because he had not even been unable to get off a single shot during his previous minutes because he couldn't create any seperation / space on his own.......and that was when MSU was still defending the paint. No way he could have gotten off a quality shot if the Spartans were giving us the paint and over playing the perimeter. Best he could have done was to occupy their attention so that maybe someone else could get one.......but no one else could consistently hit one last nite either.
If we want a KU team to rely on the three point shot as our bread and butter, we will have a lot of games like last nite.
Our threes tend to fall best when we've had success in the paint and the opponent has to choose to guard one or the other.
We aren't as good of a three point shooting team when we have to have them in order to win.
@VailHawk Frank was too!
How many three footers (or in). Have we missed?
Our bench scoring is a lot lower than I was anticipating.
Bad possession
Keep our FT percentage strong for the rest of the game and the game is ours.
He tried, but couldn't get open before he had a hand in his face.
@wissoxfan83 good call
Always a head scratcher when the ref waits for a missed shot to hit the floor before he blows the whistle for a blocking foul
Lucas' only job should have been to get the 4th foul on Costello
Lucas did not move at all and still got called for the blocking foul
Valentine and Costello have the Jamari Tarik thing going. Black/Costello break down the lane. Jamari/Valentine follow and when the help defense lets Black/Costello go, they get a sweet pass for a layup.
Valentine is a beast.
We are starting to settle for shots.....are we tired?
Mari attacking with swagger and hitting his FT.....I like it!