@drgnslayr But I've been waiting for Selden to get aggressive and start playing, but so far it hasn't happened. I think Coach Self tried really hard to get Selden ready to become an OAD, but Selden might have made up his mind to spend at least two years at KU. :) No complaints here, as I love Selden as a player. But given our outside shooting woes, it might be time to look at White again. Or maybe even try handing Greene the starting spot and see how he performs. Wiggins and Selden both were famous slashers in high school. They both have good shooting mechanics, but their outside shooting are not consistent enough to be considered outside threats at this point.

We all knew that White was dedicated to KU and the system, and made huge improvement over the summer, but from today Jesse's article on White's return, I sensed Coach Self deliberately pushed Selden ahead of White knowing Selden wasn't ready. I wonder if it was because McLemore jumped from a 23rd ranked high school player to lottery in NBA draft, and Selden appeared to have a NBA ready body. So he projected Selden should have been good enough to step in from day one, and hopefully be ready by conference starts. Selden was a big upgrade over White on paper, 12th ranked player over 51st ranked player. But the one year in the KU system narrowed that gap quite a bit. So there might not be too much difference between Selden and White at least at this point. The only draw back of White might be he doesn't have good enough handle to play the 2. I don't remember seeing much of him with Wiggins on the floor together. Maybe he hasn't been given a chance to play the 2 with Wiggins as the 3. I wish someone can report what's happening at the practices. We may never know since Coach doesn't let the non-star players (White or Greene) play through their mistakes.

Coach Self was willing to bench Tharpe to get his message across. And I hope he'd be willing to give White or Greene a try.

@HighEliteMajor That was a great question, and got a direct answer. It really helps understanding Coach Self's thoughts and the team's understanding. Well done!

@jaybate 1.0 This is a fiction right. I mean no malice. :)

Nicely done!

@wissoxfan83 and @jaybate This is a great thread! Thx.

Not quite related to KU. But it is a story about Coach Williams by Jason King of Bleacher Report. I still love Coach Williams for his 15 great years of KU basketball. Hope he finds peace of mind in retirement soon.

Inside Roy Williams' Most Trying Season By Jason King ↗

!Bob Davis ↗

CJOnline -- Jesse Newell: Year in Review ↗

Bill Self’s back was turned.

In a normal setting — Allen Fieldhouse, for example — the Kansas coach wouldn’t have needed to turn backwards to discuss something with one of his assistant coaches.

This was no normal setting, though. This was Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, Texas, a dome-turned-basketball-arena with an elevated court that separated Self from his bench and, more importantly in this moment, his assistant coaches.

KU Sports -- Gary Bedore:Bob Davis in 30th year as voice of the Jayhawks ↗

Bob Davis, a 2006 inductee in the Kansas Association of Broadcasters Hall of Fame who has been named the state’s Sportscaster of the Year 13 times, isn’t the type of person to boast about his own accomplishments.

@REHawk Is Oakville finally here? Well, the full version of @JayBate was released just in time for Christmas. Can we at least have a glimpse of Oakville Beta 2?

I think we may have more chance seeing Perry at 3 if we have Turner (or Embiid in my dreams) as 5, Alexander as 4 next year. Otherwise Perry will be counted on as a 4. And I don't see much chance seeing Perry at 3 this year since Wiggins and Selden start at 3 and 2. When either needs a blow, Perry will too. And with a deep bench of 2 and 3s, there is little reason to slide Perry to 3, especially Perry's replacements is either Traylor or Lucas.

Merry Christmas!

It's frigid, but beautiful. :)
!DSC_9525-001.JPG ↗

@drgnslayr I don't have a read on o' Perry. Maybe there is nothing to read. He is 20, but looks 30. I have a hard time picturing Perry changing his personality. I think he is what he is and we'd better leave him alone. Perry is the most effective when he is not the focus point. Some days he will play angry like Withey and dominate the game, but most of the time he will simply blend in and just be himself.

I'd be willing to wager he will say he needs to become more aggressive when asked what he needs to do to succeed in the NBA during the NBA draft interviews.

@HighEliteMajor Very informative analysis. Great job.

@jaybate 1.0 Beautifully said in the first 5 verses, but regarding "trifecta", would that still be the effect of our inability to shoot the 3s consistently?

On the other hand, Conner still plays. Does it means Coach Self has the same faith in him like he does in Tarik? So should we expect a break-out game from him as well?

Dear @drgnslayr , I don't know if you were the dragon or the slayer today, but the mountain moving argument was hard to digest. :) Iowa was a little harsh there, but it was a laugh. No harm done I hope.

@Kip_McSmithers Hey Kip, thanks for the laugh. I think Jerry was the reason why Bedore was slipping. :o

@JayDocMD I'd like to give you two stars, but the board won't let me. ;)

Let's use and develop the backcourt studs we already have.

@nuleafjhawk I whole heartedly second yours. But a NC at the end of this campaign will be a DREAM come true for me. :)

@Lulufulu85 :) If we win the big one, all three may be gone. Then we reload with Oubre, Alexander, and Turner. That'd be a dream come true.

Thought it should be 2.0. Don't we get an upgrade for Christmas?

Glad to see Carl is still trying to pull the strings,

Xavier Henry was developing into an NBA player. But all Carl Henry could do was cringe. He wanted his son to shoot more.

But here is an intriguing quote,

"I think the toughest thing for [Henry] is that he was at Kansas for only a year before he left early for the draft," Monty Williams, New Orleans's coach, told the Times Picayune in March 2012. "Then he goes to Memphis and is hurt, so he doesn't get the same teaching. Then we have a lockout. That's two years where he hasn't played consistently."

How many players who entered the draft with high potential, but were not ready get the same amount of coaching/support they would have when they were the stars of their college teams had they come back to school?

Regarding Coach Self's recommendation for a player who is potentially a lottery pick,

"Like a lot of kids, I think he was ready to make a lot of money," Self said. "It's hard to fault anybody when they leave, ... then you risk a lot of things. My thing is, if a kid's a lottery pick, then it'd be hard for me as a coach to try and convince him to stay."

Henry was not injured while in school, but was after going to the NBA. Was he injury prone? Could it be he knew something wasn't right at the end of his year at KU, so he didn't want to risk it being exposed before the next draft?

What's the downfall other than being injured while in school? If being exposed of the deficiencies by staying in school is such a high risk, wouldn't "not getting the chance to develop and correct the deficiencies" be even more damaging? Based on Henry's experience, I'd say yes.

Now for Embiid, will he be a starter on the NBA team if he is drafted with a lottery pick next year? And I'm assuming he won't be nearly as ready as Olajuwon when he was drafted No. 1 after graduating. Will he get the same amount of teaching/nurturing/support from the NBA team as KU? Remember Coach Self coaching philosophy, the ball always go through the big man. At KU, Embiid will be THE go-to guy if he comes back next year. But will he if he is on a NBA team?

So what's the advantage for Embiid to go after this year other than grabbing the quick money?

Well, I don't know how other coaches do things, but I've read many times, Coach Self or Williams called out their players for bad performance. Not saying if it is ok or not, but a leader must find ways to motivate his charge.

I'd say the same to my son if I were in a similar position. From Jason King's story,

"You looked like a jackass out there," Self said. "I don't know about you, Joel. Your attitude stinks. You're soft. I don't know if I can coach you, Joel. Maybe you should just take your ass back to Cameroon."

But the quote below won't fly with any coach,

Senior forward Davante Drinkard wasn't amused by the rant and tweeted, "I can't believe the little man had the nerve to call us mama's boys. Smh. I guess this is where Our team learns to point the finger."

@HighEliteMajor I think we do have the right reasons to expect Black to become a different player. Sometimes it just takes the right mentor to change one's life. I remember being a naughty little boy when I was in elementary. But in fifth grade, I had an excellent teacher and under her guidance suddenly everything connected and I became totally different person. To this day, I always think about her and thank her for her help. Coach Self is an excellent coach, teacher, mentor and I have every reason to believe if he could help others to achieve their goals, he'd be able to help Black.

@drgnslayr Agreed that we need rivalry. And we have 3 more reasons to play Wichita, Ellis, Frankamp and Wiggins. We are family.

@dylans Yes, there were many super stars in and around that era, Magic, Ewing, Olajuwon, Jordan, Barkley, et al. That's why there was the Dream Team. To me that was the good o' days.

@Lulufulu85 Thanks for the link.

There is a lot of background info in this article. Jason King did a great job writing the story.

I hope Embiid decides to come back for a second serving next year. It will be turkey and gravy, and all the treats one can imagine. 6'9" at 16, 7'0" at 18. With more balance nutrition and training, we might just have Wilt coming back to us one more time. I know I'm dreaming. :)

But more seriously, the other day, I posted in another thread the glorious career Hakeem Olajuwon had over his 18 years NBA career. I don't believe he missed anything by staying in school until he is absolutely ready for the next level. I know it's a different era, but not everyone is the same. And I hope JoJo chooses to be different, and I know if he does, he will have cemented his own legacy and forever be remembered like Danny who came back for his senior year.

I have a DREAM!

@jhawk7782 Jojo was compared to Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon frequently, but here is what Olajuwon achieved,

Graduated as a senior in 1984.
Went to 3 Final Fours.
Drafted by NBA as the number 1 pick in 1984.
Played in the NBA for 18 years.
Was 2× NBA champion (1994–1995)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1994–1995)
1x NBA Most Valuable Player (1994)
12× NBA All-Star (1985–1990, 1992–1997)
Made over 100 million dollars in salary over his NBA career.

What did Olajuwon miss by staying for 4 years at University of Houston? I'd say nothing. But I believe he gained a lot by being ready on every level when he was drafted. Too bad today's kids don't get it. Too many of them go for the instant gratification.

Will Embiid be an exception in the modern era? I wish... :)

Now we have Wiggins in the beast mode for three games though he didn't have a good game last night, but I think he was aggressive when he was on the floor. He is getting out of his comfort zone and trying to be the go-to guy. I don't think he is anywhere near where he can become, but he is leading the team in many categories purely based on his physical abilities.

I think the point guard position is one of the biggest deficiency of this team. Tharpe played a very good second half, but his first half was terrible in my untrained eyes. When Tharpe played well driving and dishing, we got a lot of talent to finish around the rim. I whole-heartily agree with Coach and also Fran that he needs to play like a pure point.

I think this team hit the freshman wall a little earlier than normal. We had some early season success. The young guys ran on adrenaline for a while, then they ran out of ideas. And part of the reason I think is that the coaches studied enough film and figured out how to beat this talented, but undisciplined team. I think the team is starting to buy into Coach Self's philosophy, and some of them are starting to get out of their comfort zone and bring effort into the game every game. Wiggins has brought it to the games for the last three games and tried to take over such as in the Colorado game. Embiid has consistently getting better and better. I think he is cutting down his fouls too and getting more blocks. Ellis continues to impress on the offense and I think we don't talk about him enough. I think he is truly amazing. I think he can finish above the rim, but he chooses to play below and uses his foot work to finish consistently. If Embiid stays for another year, he'd be as good as Ellis, but with 3-4 inches of height advantage. How great will he be?!

I think Wiggins and Embiid have had the switch turned on. Now I'm waiting for Selden to get out of his skin. Once he gets up to speed with Self ball, we have the team pretty much complete.

I don't understand White vs. Greene situation, but Coach must have his reasons to sit White. I'm not losing faith with White, but Greene is displaying a lot of confidence right now which is a good thing. I still think Coach Self is trying to balance between Greene and White and keep both happy. I think either Greene or White transferring will be a big loss to the team even with Oubre coming. I think a sophomore Greene or junior White will be better than freshman Oubre even though Oubre is ranked much higher than both Greene and White. We now have seen how the highly ranked Wiggins and Selden perform and they play like true freshmen. :)

I think the Colorado game was Wiggins' turning point. I'm sure he will have ups and downs, but he will bring his effort on the floor.

It's really good to see Mason having the right attitude on the bench. I noticed in the second half, he ran onto the floor to pull Traylor up even though he was sitting on the bench at the time. I don't think bench players are allowed to run onto the floor, but there was a timeout. And I thought that was very encouraging that he didn't get down on himself for losing the starting spot.

Over all, there are many encouraging signs from the team through the two losing games and last night's winning game. I think some of the freshmen are breaking through the freshmen wall and really buying into Coach Self's teaching. The season is still young and the team will only get better.

@drgnslayr Made this comment on another thread, but thought it may be relevant here,

“That’s what I’m best at,” Wiggins said. “Being aggressive, driving to the basket and being fouled. Slashing to the basket, that’s what I’m best at.”

Hope his light bulb stays on.

“That’s what I’m best at,” Wiggins said. “Being aggressive, driving to the basket and being fouled. Slashing to the basket, that’s what I’m best at.”

“The way the officials are calling the game,” Self said, “you’ve got to get to the free-throw line and the best way to do that is to drive the ball. He played well in the second half.”

I think a light bulb might have turned on in Wiggins' head. And I hope that bulb would stay on from now on.

Move over Tharpe, Mason is here. ;)

!Tharpe and Mason in warmup ↗

Tait's blog ↗

@wrwlumpy If everything appears equal, I'd take Coach Self any day or night over Coach Cal. And I have a feeling we will be a much better team in March than the Kentucky blue. :O

Thanks, @ParisHawk How did I miss Miles?

Does anyone have the list of freshman point guards starting at KU? Mario Chalmers, Adonis Jordan? Did Jacque Vaughn start? I don't think as good as they were, Collins or Hinrich started as freshmen.

@Kip_McSmithers US is in one of two groups of death, and England is in the other. It will be a great achievement to get by either Germany or Portugal. US has the deepest team this time, but may be missing the top shelf strikers. Hope Clint Dempsey rises up to the occasion, and luck is on our side.

WOW! The snow ball is going down the hill.

Mason starts. Embiid next week?

I think this the short version of JoJo before he slayed the lion. :)

!JoJo, the lion slayer ↗

The self pity and loathing

Reading too much from nothing I guess.

Sorry, @dylans I forgot to mention it's a Sherman's turret with a Tiger's gun. So there got to be some fitting issues. :)

Now how would you like Frankamp looks like this?

!Franwhite.jpg ↗

@drgnslayr No, shaken, not stirred. :)

We all have high hopes and plenty of love for our team and the players. Pour me a drink too. Cheers!

Also I like Andrew White III a lot. I love his dedication and hustle. Tyshawn Taylor played himself into the NBA being a top 70 ranked HS player. And I think White might too. If he doesn't get a chance to play in the NBA, I'm sure he will have a successful career in Europe like Russell Robinson.

@ralster You are one of the experts on this site, but I feel your assessment of Frankamp or Mason is a little off.

Frankamp doesnt play, because Mason brings better ball handling, better size, and better attackability, and likely better defense. As Self said: Frankamp got beat out in practice already, and when he has come in, while he has done good things, he has not found his 3-range (yet). Circular argument if he-cant-get-mpg, his-shot-wont-improve --> trumped by fact he isnt getting enough of the whole pkg done in practice to be able to get more mpg in live games.

I don't believe Mason is taller than Frankamp, but I agree he is stronger and faster and probably better ball handling. And I'm not sure if he plays better defense than Frankamp. I feel (not an expert) Frankamp has displayed decent defense while there are way too many reach-in fouls from Mason. Maybe Frankamp played more within himself, but Mason played on the edge of his abilities? Also I haven't seen where Coach Self commented Frankamp got beat in practice. I'd imagine him like Jeremy Case who would light up in practice, but couldn't hit the ocean from a boat in a game. :(

@drgnslayr and @nuleafjhawk I love what you are discussing here and agree with you on many of your points. What got me down was the idea of human experience: showcasing one man's talent, but not effort. I agree there is a lot to be excited about Wiggins' game and potential. But through the first 7 games, I see more highlight plays, but less hustle plays. Actually I expected a lot from him. I expected him to compete as least as hard as White, and drive as much as Mason. Is that sniffing at the competition or simply reserved and let others shine? He certainly got up there in the Duke game, but not so much in the other games, especially the last game against UTEP. I think "bring it to every game" is a mental attitude. It is a respect for the game and the opponents. It doesn't matter who is on the other side. A true competitor gives his/her all all the time, not just when the spot light is on or against a "worthy" opponent. I'm a little disappointed in this regard. Hope he brings it to the game all the time.

Picked up a few keywords here.

Expectation: Hero worship

Team: Kansas basketball

Talent: Wiggins

Potential: Can do, but not showing

Show case: The NBA GM in the building or the game on national TV

Highlight: Maximum exposure

Human experience: Me!

Sorry to be so negative, but I can't help thinking about the meaning of this thread.

Stats from statsheet.com through first 7 games

Andrew Wiggins' production

!Andrew Wiggins Team Impact - Kansas Jayhawks - College Basketball - Mozilla Firefox 1212013 110747 PM.jpg ↗

Wayne Selden's production

!Wayne Selden Jr. Team Impact - Kansas Jayhawks - College Basketball - Mozilla Firefox 1212013 105739 PM-001.jpg ↗

I think the positive trend should be the more minutes they play, the more points they produce. It is mostly true for Selden with the exception of Nova. But it appears to be the opposite for Wiggins. So does it mean Wiggins is cherry picking rather than putting consistent effort throughout the games?

@approxinfinity I think our 3pt shooting is fine, in the first 4 games, we had 38.9%, 37.5%, 28.6%, 43.8% respectively. I think the venue and the basketball definitely affected our shooting (around 20%) in the ballroom. So we should be fine over the long haul.

Both Selden and Wiggins displayed very nice shooting form, so I think they have the tools to be really good shooters. They just need to trust themselves and keep shooting.

Selden was 1-4, 1-2, 0-1, and 1-2 in the first 4 games. So he can do it, but he needs to develop the consistency.

@Jesse_Newell Thanks for the effort to bring the KU fans together. And I have a request. Can you start the live chat a little earlier or put up a message saying when the live chat will be open instead of the chat room being full message? Last time, I checked the CJ live chat and it displayed the chat room was full message until the game started. And it was very confusing.

Also I wonder if you can shed some light on the Greene situation being close to the KU team and Coach Self. Why is he in Coach's doghouse? I just don't see the reason why he isn't playing and I thought he was terrific in the first couple of games.

Thank you.

I disagree with the idea of switching personnel just because the supposed stars are not performing as expected. I think it is better to push the stars to higher heights than trying to replace them with lesser talent. If the less talented players have the experience to compensate their physical limitations like Moody, I'd take that. But at this point Landen has no experience and physically is no match to Black, Embiid, or Wiggins. Even Selden at 6'6" 220lb should be able to post up and play as a short 4 on the college level. I don't believe we need more green wood to take up the floor. Their chance is in their Junior or Senior years. I believe Lucas belongs to the bench this year, and we need Embiid, Black to learn to play hard without fouling. And Traylor has not played with the maturity level he is supposed to have this season. After all, he has worked with Coach Self for three years already. So I guess I wouldn't be sorry if Lucas takes Traylor's minutes.

@drgnslayr and @Case Second that!

I believe Coach Self is messing with the shooters. He is not concerned about the 3pt shooting percentage because he knew who were the shooters, and he trust them to be good shooters with natural abilities. But he is forcing the issues with Wiggins and Selden. At this point, neither Wiggins nor Selden displayed the alpha dog mentality to take over game. They have the green light to drive as much as they want, and shoot as often as they want as long as the shots are within the flow the game. But neither was willing to do so consistently. Both played really well at spots such as the Duke game, but they don't bring it every game. Both of them are superior athletes, so boot camp didn't really pushing them to their limit. So Coach has to find different approaches to address the mental toughness side of the issue. Coach wants them to get out of their comfort zone and really achieve what they are capable, but didn't believe they could. So Coach at this point doesn't want anyone to help them. He wants them to solve the problem on their own. He wants them to take over games like they are supposed to. I think Coach gathered enough evidence through the few games so far, and the next week will be his teaching sessions. I expect huge improvement on all fronts at the Colorado game next Saturday. And I won't be surprised if the shooters suddenly rediscovered their touches then too. Or I may be dreaming. :)

Some random thoughts.

KU might benefit from getting some practice time with the Nike basketballs. It appears to make some difference in the game performance. I don't remember who of our players commented that they were not used to playing with the Nike basketball after the Wake game. And I found it ironic that Duke uses Nike, and they struggled at the free throw line (57%) in Chicago with the Wilson basketball. And all of KU's games were using Wilson balls except the most recent 3 games.

I really don't like the look of the ballroom at Atlantis. The darkened seating area made it look like driving at night with dome light on. It must be terrible for the depth perception. Our guys had the worst field goal shooting at the ballroom of this young season.

I don't understand why Coach wouldn't play Greene. And I wonder if Greene will be tough enough to stick through the toughening box, and stay at KU for 4 years. Is it the maturity thing? Off court issues? I keep thinking what that hit&run with the parked car means. But the demeanor on the sideline or on the court doesn't suggest a Rio Adam or JR Giddens type. He seems to be a nice kid.

What's wrong with Frankamp's shot? He was a shooter, but now he can't make either 3 or 2 pt. Is the Wichita city league that bad? But seriously why doesn't Greene play ahead of Frankamp? They both have the reputation of being sharp shooters, but Greene is clearly superior physically.

Quote of Coach Self, “To me, when you look as a coach, you should be judged on basically three things: Do they play together and are they unselfish? Do they play extremely hard? And are they tough?” Self said. “And I’d say we went 0-for-3. So that’s frustrating to me when you go 0-for-3.” So where/what is the role of the coach? I get that the teaching happens during practice and the players are supposed to do what they practiced, but I don't think Coach did much to help the young kids during the games in those three games. Or maybe he proved his point, all the star power won't win you games or may lose if they don't play like a team. They were missing some fighting spirit during these three games.

Here is a good site for stats, statsheet.com ↗. And if you want some bragging right material, here is dailyjayhawk.com ↗.