🏀 KuBuckets Archive

@drgnslayr I would agree that Wiggins is largely "untethered". Self does seem to treat his "star" freshman different than the less-heralded ones. Perhaps it's Self's thinking that he needs to be more lax with them for fear of striking out on the recruiting trail in the future. That if he's hard on Wiggins, the Caliparis of the game will be in every blue chipper's house saying "look at Self berating his best player! Benching him for lesser talent. That's the risk you take sending your son to KU". We've talked a lot here lately about who should come back and hating the OAD rule and whatnot, but make no mistake - Self is all in on trying to get the most talented kids in the country. Perhaps it was losing to a OAD-loaded Kentucky roster in the title game the same year he had a razor thin bench, but whatever the case this seems the direction the program is headed, at least in the immediate future.

As far as wanting to get this team to play open court basketball, I don't see that happening. I would like to see it happen, but I doubt it does. First, something HEM has brought up numerous times over the years is that instead of having a designated person throw the ball in after a made basket, just have the person closest to the ball grab it, get it in, and start pushing.

However, that is just a small part of it. Running & gunning needs to mostly come off of defensive stops. Off the rebound or by creating turnovers. This team doesn't create many turnovers. I don't know exactly why; Selden & Wiggins are both plus defenders, but we don't have that "disruptor". Wiggins & Selden are the RussRob & BRush of this team - the premier on-ball defenders, but there is no Chalmers on this squad. No one eyeing the passing lanes or coming up behind a post player on the baseline waiting to poke the ball loose.

So without many turnovers, you're left to try and get out in the open off of opponents' misses. And certainly there are ways to do that. We could try rebounding with only two post players and sending the wings up the court. But I suspect that would go against most everything Self holds dear. To send players up the court would mean abandoning their man, their man who is now wide open on any offensive rebounds. Self is all about the M2M defense, making it as tough for the opponent to score points as possible. I have a hard time seeing him embrace such a stategy, especially because I don't think we are a great rebounding team. There's probably many other ways to do create an up-tempo open floor game, but that's the simplest way I can think of on defense.

(scrolling back up I just realized Jaybate covered these three points much more succinctly than I did!)

The other reason I don't see it happening is because this team is so young, I don't think that you are solely playing for this year. You are playing for next year, and the year after that with many of these guys. I don't think Self wants anyone to think there is an "out" to playing the game his way. No excuses.

I love Self, but we have the horses to be just a tad more Roy Williams this year.

@drgnslayr Well I would certainly entertain the idea that he shouldn't have been given any minutes. Again, I just think it was a gross misplacement of blame to say he cost us a National Championship.

I would even entertain the idea that having Selby on the team, period, was a detriment. I'm someone who is very sympathetic to Josh Selby and his time here. Had it not been for the suspension I think he might have grabbed the starting PG job out of the gate. Instead Tyshawn inherited it. Selby comes back and Self has him playing off the ball, which was not his natural position. Then he gets hurt. He tries to come back but it was obvious he was not the same (sound like Joel maybe?). So I don't blame him for the way his brief KU career turned out, nor do I blame him for the VCU loss. However, if you remove him from the situation entirely, I think things might have been different. Tyshawn certainly played worse once Selby became eligible; no doubt looking over his shoulder so to speak. And without Selby maybe Self develops EJ earlier and plays him more minutes (although I doubt it. Given the fact that he could get by with Tyshawn, BStar, Reed, & Mario Little, I can't see EJ getting too many more minutes).

@Crimsonorblue22 I'm not saying that he necessarily "risks" his players' health. Certainly I think if there was a chance Joel could make it worse we'd be hearing something different. But let's face it - Bill is a tough guy. And we have countless examples throughout the years of guys playing through injuries. He expects it, and if you play he expects you to perform. He's also a "win every game at all costs" guy. It's why we don't see him develop his bench as much as perhaps some of the posters would like. He'd rather win every game, from the non-conference straight through the conference season, rather than play young players early and risk a loss here and there for the sake of player development. I think this is why we also see him not sitting down his players to get them closer to 100%. There's a difference between there being no risk of further injury and needing time to recover. I think at times he has a difficulty seeing the big picture, which is due to him being a fierce competitor. It's part of what makes him great at what he does, but I just think this is one of the drawbacks.

Not sure if I'm doing this right as this is the first time posting a new topic (as opposed to simply responding), but here goes. Link to story on whether Joel will play Saturday:

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2014/feb/13/self-decision-joel-embiids-availability-coming-fri/ ↗ ↗

To me, it's a head scratcher why Self just wouldn't err on the side of caution and sit him for the TCU game. The only thing I can think of is he talks himself into it because hey, TCU beat us last year with a veteran team (albeit on the road, not in AFH), and Self is of the extremely macho school of thinking that if you can play through injuries, you play, rather than recover.

Tried to get the scoop on Jamari from my brother living in Lawrence (20 years old, semi "in the know" ), but really it's just rumors that I won't post for mass visibility here. If true though, it's nothing too serious and I would think he would be available soon.

Sorry if the link to this article has been posted elsewhere, or if I didn't do it right. Still getting used to things here!

@drgnslayr " but Selby was a top recruit that we gave him too much leash (and PT) down the stretch in March, and he cost us... most likely a National Championship!"

Whoa! First I've ever heard that opinion. I would strongly disagree. What cost us a National Championship more than anything was B-Star & Tyrel Reed playing a combined 66 minutes against VCU and shooting a combined 2-16, 1-10 on three pointers. Yes it's true Selby did not avail himself much better, but he only played 15 minutes, and certainly wasn't any worse than those two!

As far as PT down the stretch, again there was 15 minutes against VCU, 17 minutes against Richmond, 10 minutes against Illinois, & 15 minutes against Boston. Those are the NCAA tournament games. In the Big 12 tournament he got 7 minutes against Texas, 11 minutes against Colorado, & 11 minutes against Okie St. To close out the season, he played 7 minutes against Misery & 11 minutes against A&M. That was Selby's March. Hardly seems like he was getting too much PT.

Also not sure I would ever consider him "untethered" down the stretch. In none of those games did he take an inordinate amount of shots, and to the best of my recollection I don't recall him playing outside the offense, so to speak. I think Self tried some things to get him back on track following his injury, but I wouldn't characterize that as having too much leash.

@Blown Blown! Don't give up on the 'hawks just yet! Not that they would be considered "favorites" to win it all, but we're as talented as anybody, and with Embiid healthy we are a different team. I would definitely reserve any judgments of a predictive nature on KU until we see if the big fella can return to his once dominant self. It's about getting hot at the right time. Following the SDSU loss, we were as hot as anybody in the country. Then Joel's injury happened, and we've taken a couple losses on the chin. As others have speculated, if we're forced to play without Joel for a couple of games, it may actually be beneficial long term. It will mean more minutes for the rest of the post players to polish their skills, and it will force the perimeter D to play without the rim protector, which should force improvement as well. The season is not lost yet! Definitely not because KSU needed us to play piss poor, without a healthy Embiid, without Jamari, and still needed an overtime to put us away in their house (which is one of the more hostile enviroments we'll play in all year). Have faith brother!

As far as other favorites to win it all, Florida has to be one of them. The SEC is pretty weak this year, so they won't come in as tested as other teams (at least not recently). I was ready to drink the SDSU kool-aid, but not sure what a stumble against Wyoming means. Maybe nothing but an off game. Syracuse is there as well, as their quality of zone few teams will have faced heading into the tourney. However, they seem to constantly underachieve. One of the Grantland writers recently ranked the Syracuse teams of the past (apparently he's someone who follows them regularly), and he said last year's team and maybe 2 or 3 other squads were all better than the Carmelo Anthony-Gerry McNamara-Hakeem Warrick team in '03 that won it all, which was their only National Championship.

And speaking of Syracuse, I don't watch them a ton, but if I had to guess at why their zone is so good I would say first and foremost it is because it is their primary defense, and Boeheim has been running it for 30 years. It is active, and has many trapping elements to it.

In regards to Wiggins, Embiid, & others coming back for another year, I don't think there's any doubt from a physical standpoint that almost every 18-19 year old kid could benefit from another year of college. However, I was reading an article on Grantland yesterday on the Marcus Smart situation, and it talks about how much money he possibly lost by coming back for another year. From the article:

"a player who would have been a top-three pick last year and who may not crack the top 10 now. He’ll be competing against mostly unknown guys with limitless upside — Zach LaVine, Dante Exum, Aaron Gordon, Andrew Wiggins — while scouts have seen enough of Smart this year to notice all his limits. He may not have a clear position, he may not be a great shooter or a great athlete, and you can insert your own knock from whatever happened Saturday. None of it mattered last year."

Much of that has nothing to do with Shovegate. It's like Jay Bilas says (paraphrasing): some guys need to leave before they're found out.

The article also references Mitch McGary from Michigan & James McAdoo from UNC as examples of guys who passed on the lottery and it has cost them. There are surely other examples that escape me at the moment, but bottom line is - bypassing the lottery is most definitely a risk.

I've seen some people come on the message boards and talk about how Embiid's family isn't poor or Wiggins' family isn't poor so they can afford to come back to school. But there is a difference between not being poor and risking life-changing money. Cole Aldrich & Ben McLemore leaving to provide immediate relief for their families was certainly understandable. But who are we as fans to tell these kids to pass up millions, regardless of whether their families are in dire need of it?

The other thing that I often wonder is regarding Embiid's injury situation. Could he be looking at his injury in one hand, his lofty draft position in the other, and wondering if it is worth coming back and risking that happen again. What if he comes back and gets injured next year? If that happens, it's well within reason that the Greg Oden comparisons could set in. 7-footer with a history of leg problems. And GMs don't have a lot of basketball history to draw upon from Embiid to say this won't be commonplace. I even wonder if Wiggins isn't looking at Embiid and being so close to the situation isn't thinking the same thing - should he bolt before an injury has a chance to diminish his earning potential.

I do think the thing Embiid should draw from the Greg Oden scenario is that he should let his body physically mature before sacrificing it to the beasts in the NBA, but personally I can't fault anybody for trying to make themselves a good living. Selfishly, we'd all love for these guys to stick around for as long as possible. But if they decide the time is right for them, I will thank them for their service and wish them the best.

@AsadZ In short, I can't definitively answer that question. I would need to know the circumstances, and even then it would be speculative at best. Would it be worse if suddenly Tharpe would have transferred at the beginning of the season? Almost certainly, as we'd have had to go with frosh Mason full-time, backed up presumably by frosh Frankamp. The other scenario there is Self uses Selden as his back-up PG, which is actually something I wouldn't mind seeing. Regardless, our record would probably be worse. If we were without Tharpe because, in the situation I referenced, Anrio Adams beat him out for back-up PG duties last year and thus Adams was here this year...impossible to say. Adams was a wild card. If given those minutes, would his attitude have improved? Would he have been driven to improve certain aspects of his game? Would he mesh with this year's team? As I said in my post, I'm inclined to believe the right decision was made, but the reality is we'll never know how things would have played out differently.

But to your point, I would agree that he has been excellent in Big 12 play...on the offensive end. Consider those percentages that you posted. Naadir has been THAT good shooting the ball, and is only .2 better than Wiggins. Granted, I don't know the formula this win share uses so maybe that .2 means he has been leaps and bounds better than everyone else, or maybe it doesn't really capture just how much better a guy like Wiggins has been on the defensive end so the stat is crap. I don't know. My only point was agreeing with HEM that defensively, we're probably not going to see much improvement. And I stand by that. Doesn't mean I'm not impressed with his shooting or think he's done a poor job. If I was going to grade him, I'd give him a B.

@drgnslayr The thing about it is, KSU is not the type of team that has consistently given us problems this season. They are not overly physical; even yesterday against Texas they were out-rebounded. They didn't trap or press a lot to create turnovers. Texas did turn it over 18 times, but I watched the game and they were almost all in the half-court. They had Foster go off, and rode that momentum, while Texas had almost nothing go right until Isaiah Taylor got going a little bit in the second half.

KState will most likely play very good half-court defense which will keep us from pulling away too much too early. I still see us whipping them by double digits. Someone on one of the kusports articles said they thought everyone sounded sick. I guess if most of the team is under the weather we could come out and lay an egg. That's really the only scenario that I see us losing. More likely, Bill uses this opportunity to once again stomp on the throat of Bruce Webber.

@KansasComet No worries. And I would much rather talk KU hoops and the Monday game, but sometimes things happen that are so big they demand our attention. Like a car wreck.

Speaking of the game Monday, I think we're fine. As long as we're not rattled by the crowd, I'm not too worried. I think it's doubtful that Foster goes off like he did yesterday. Selden & Wiggins are too good to let that happen for very long. After that, they just don't have many weapons. Even yesterday, Foster was the only one in double figures. I know they're good enough that as a team we can't afford to look past them, but as a fan about the only game I have metaphorically circled on the calendar is the Texas re-match. The rest of the way: TCU at home (yawn), the game at Lubbock holds my attention only because of yesterday's events, home game against OU probably plays out much like yesterday's game (not a rout, but very little doubt from start to finish), the game in Stillwater loses more luster the further the Cowboys sink, senior night for Black & Wesley has less sentiment involved than in years past, and the final game of the regular season in Morgantown, which could be our toughest test left (aside from Texas).

@KansasComet I had 10 points in my comment, 9 of which were directly about KU basketball and yesterday's game. You could choose to respond to one of those, or to expand on the match-up Monday night. I'm down for that.

As far as discussing Marcus Smart, he is relevant to Kansas basketball. Self recruited him. He has beaten us in our house. We have one more game to play with OSU this season (possibly two if we see them in the conference tournament), and his decline in play and attitude as an opponent make him worth discussing. On a larger scale, others have brought up the similarity to the events at Ames last year. KU still has to go play in Lubbock this year. What kind of enviroment will our players face down there? Is player security a concern? All of these reasons make it a relevant topic of conversation for KU hoops fans.

Some random thoughts following the game:

1. I thought our offense looked pretty decent against their zones, traps, & pressures. 55% shooting and only 12 turnovers.

2. I miss "Em-beast". He just hasn't been the same since injuring his knee. Hoping for a breakout game soon. While Monday against the kitties would be nice, I'm not sure we'll need it.

3. Mason's open court move on Gary Browne was sick. Or at least Browne's collapse made it seem that way! Speaking of Mason, HEM points out that Mason is a better player than Tharpe in all aspects of the game except for shooting. And while Mason developing a reliable trey gun would be nice, he doesn't need it. He need only to look at Saturday's counterpart - Juwan Staten. 22 points, no three point attempts. On the season the guy has only shot 14! Yet he averages 18 ppg. Now it's not likely that Self will ever have a PG that averages quite that many, but my point is Mason could develop into that type of reliable scorer without becoming a great outside shooter.

4. In response to something in one of the articles - I think at this point Wiggins' defense isn't something that is overlooked or that he doesn't get enough credit for. Maybe if you don't follow KU basketball all that often it might come as a surprise, but how many times have we watched a broadcast or read an article and somebody says that his defense is underrated? Most of KU nation knows how stellar a defender this guy is. Which got me to thinking - have we ever had a perimeter defender this good as a freshman? BRush & RussRob set the standard for on-ball defense, and Releford was certainly in that class as well, but they weren't as good as Wiggins is when they were freshman.

5. Perry seemed to be in a good rhythm early, but picking up his second foul about 5 minutes & change into the game really threw him off I think. Not too worried about his somewhat meager line.

6. Can someone clue the announcers into the fact that our alternate uniforms are not "throwbacks"? Second time I've heard someone refer to them like that (the other time it was the whites). I do like them, though.

7. While I would like to see Greene getting a few more minutes, I am pleased that Self appears to have given him a role, and that it appears to be immune from the quick hook. This can only help Brennan, knowing he'll get in the game and knowing he can go out there and just play. My question is, say Greene lights it up in his 4-5 minutes. What if he goes 2-2 from trey, has a couple of rebounds and a steal? Does Self extend his minutes that game, even into the second half?

8. Obviously, as it has been pointed out in a couple of the articles, Traylor & Black played great. I've been singing the praises of Jamari all year, but I'm really impressed with Black. He transfers, is starting, loses his starting role, but seems like he's always remained positive and a great teammate. In the KUsports notebook article, when asked about him & Jamari possibly being nicknamed the bruise brothers, part of his reply was "We do, however, have more than just two of us. I’m surrounded by players who play physically. We have a lot more people to add to that nickname.” And while I know this team has often been described as a "finesse" team on these boards, I love that quote.

9. Selden with a great, efficient game offensively. I would like to see him fill out the box score a little more. The announcers today were commenting how he has a similar build to Marcus Smart. Fraschilla was quick to point out that Selden doesn't have the handles that Smart has. However, Selden could easily be more of a force on the boards, and his defense is good enough he should also be getting more steals. And while he might not have true point guard quality handles, I was a proponent early in the season of having him run some point this year. A few possessions here and there. Never can have enough guys capable of bringing it up and initiating the offense.

10. And lastly, speaking of Marcus Smart, his implosion is just about complete. He's earned a reputation as perhaps the worst flopper in college today, came out this week and admitted it (but blamed it on the refs inconsistency), then this - shoving a fan in the stands in Lubbock. The ESPN clip said it all - we might not have ever seen something like that in the college game. Unbelievable.

Spot on analysis as usual. His defense today was driving me crazy. This was the main reason why last year I was really hoping Anrio Adams would have emerged as the backup PG. Adams had the physical tools to be a great defender. Not good, but great. I'm not saying that Self made the wrong choice, as we witnessed Adams imploding on Twitter and basically writing his own ticket out of town all season with his poor attitude, but Tharpe is now a junior and as you say he has basically no chance of improving his defense.

@ralster I have never heard Self say that a loss to WSU would hurt our recruiting. Not saying he hasn't said that, but the line I've heard most often is that he doesn't want to give away a home game every other year because home games are how they fund the athletic department. Saw this in an interview done by local news here in Wichita when one of the channels started broadcasting their early season games that year, and have heard it a couple of other times since. And this is how I have finally gained some traction with WSU fans and got them to come off the "KU is scared to play us", at least a little bit. A week ago or so, also on a local news report, there was a story about how WSU's Final Four run last year actually cost the university millions (that was the teaser anyway. I only half watched the piece, and I don't remember if they factored in merchandising and whatnot after the fact). Many might recall last year how Florida Gulf Coast was having a hard time with funds to travel on the second weekend of the tournament. Given this story, WSU fans were able to see how thin the line is for not ending up in the red for the non-football powerhouse schools.

@ralster Gone are the days of having KY & Connor as our only bench, huh? (no disrespect to either player). Just imagine if Self had this kind of depth in '12.

@drgnslayr Some very good points. I fully admit the need for a rival. HEM & I used to discuss this over at KUsports, how that was the one thing that would prevent us from climbing to yet another level of success. Most great teams in the sport have that rivalry, and it's usually a competitive one (not like our "rivalry" with Misery, that was built solely on hate, not on respect or competitive equality. You say you miss having a rival. I'd tell you we never had one to begin with). All of the rivalries I mentioned have that. Kensucky probably holds an advantage over Louisville, but the Cards have surely closed the gap over the last 20-30 years, and looking at only that window we might see the competitive balance.

You are also correct (at least in my estimation) in your view of the B12. See my comment about the desire to add Louisville to the conference. Adding them would have created an instant rivalry. Look at how the media is gushing over one Duke-Syracuse game and the rivalry that's started. Yes, the B12 was extremely reactive to the conference realignment shifts. Where I disagree is that it's one thing to recognize the failings of the B12 as reactive, it's another to charge into an endeavor just for the sake of being proactive.

I think you're missing the point about an in-conference rival. Who can keep up with our success? Only a handful of teams have success & tradition close to ours. But consider UNC-Duke. Duke didn't have the success & tradition that UNC had when it rose to prominence. But that rivalry, even though they're on a down trend now, has certainly made UNC better. It's helped them brand themselves nationally. Every UNC-Duke game is on ESPN. They run special promos for those games, showing clips going back 20+ years. Images like Tyler Hansborough emerging with a bloody nose or Jeff Capel launching a half-court shot to force triple overtime are burned into our brains. It's free recruiting, and that is where the rivalry game helps you in that respect. Not on a one-game, recruits in the stands basis, but from a national consciousness level. I just don't see the argument for an out-of-conference rivalry being better. You mention not wanting another team to be put on a level of competitive balance with us, whereas I think that is exactly what we need. It just doesn't need to be manufactured (as was the case with Misery). It needs to come from the rival being legitimately competitive.

I see how fond you are of bringing up the Louisville-Kensucky rivalry. First, I'm curious who exactly is ranking that as the "3rd best rivalry in all of college sports". To me, all three college rivalries I mentioned would rank ahead in my book. Regardless, it is a good rivalry. But that is the exception. How many other non-conference rivalries are out there, and where do they rank in the spectrum? Notre Dame-USC maybe? They're few & far between. And like we both said, it is the personalities that have fueled the uptick in the Louisville-Kensucky rivalry. I'm looking for a rivalry on a program level. That's what's going to ensure we have a rivalry in 20 years. Not playing a 3 game series with Wichita St.

I have two schools in mind that we have some recent history with - Michigan St. & Ohio St. Now, it's hard to fathom them ever leaving the B10, and it's equally hard to fathom the B10 inviting us in due to our poor football program, but those are the type of programs that we could conceivably develop a legitimate rivalry with. Another would be Florida, we have some recent history with them as well. In the absence of being able to establish an in-conference rival, it is playing teams like these that I would rather our schedule makers focus on. Either pitting us against other blue bloods or against second tier teams: Louisville, Arizona, UConn, Syracuse, maybe even Cincinnati, and the three programs previously mentioned.

Lastly, no worries on hooking me up with some local Jayhawk fans. There are still plenty around Wichita, so no wheat mascots camped next to me on the couch or bar stool watching the games! That would truly be the last straw down here for me with this fan base!

@drgnslayr Oh slayr. I really love your posts, and while there are nuggets of truth in there, I just don't see the WSU rivalry as the way to go. First of all, I disagree 100% that it would be an advantage because it would be an out-of-conference rivalry. The best rivalries, in all sports at all levels, come from within conferences, divisions, leagues, etc. Off the top of your head, name the biggest sports rivalries: Red Sox-Yankees, Ohio State-Michigan, Duke-UNC, Alabama-Auburn, Dodgers-Giants, etc. The best non-conference rivalries don't hold a candle to those. The only time rivalries from non-conference teams elevate themselves to being close to that level is when it is centered around individuals. Recently, the Louisville-Kentucky rivalry has heated up because it's Pitino-Calipari. Was anybody (outside of Kentucky) paying attention to that rivalry when Tubby Smith or BIlly Gillispie were there? The Patriots-Colts/Broncos because of Brady vs. Manning. When those quarterbacks are gone, the rivalry will not sustain. As for any concerns over threatening our string of conference championships, for me that would never be a factor in wanting another school to elevate themselves to be a suitable rival. I would prefer it to be in-conference. I would never think to operate out of fear of another school rising up to challenge us. That would be a good a thing, to be challenged for the conference title.

The other disadvantage with this that looms as a very real possibility is what happens when Wichita St. falls off? And most likely they will fall off. They've had some unbelievable success recently, but it will be impossible to sustain for a couple of reasons. Mainly - conference affiliation. It is near impossible to sustain the highest levels of success at mid-majors. And Wichita St. is almost guaranteed to stay where they're at because they don't have football. They would have a hard time selling themselves to another conference to try and improve their position because of the lack of a football program. So everything you say - the gate, the merchandise, the media attention - it is all conditional upon Wichita State maintaining success. Probably safe in a 3-year deal, as it is doubtful a program can nose dive out too quickly (although not impossible). But long-term, in terms of "developing a rivalry" as you say, I wouldn't in good faith put my eggs in that basket if I was making this call.

My point in all of this is that our focus should be on developing a real rival. Wichita State most certainly is not the perfect situation to build a rivalry. It SHOULD have been a full-court press to get Louisville into the conference a year ago or so. In the absence of an in-conference rival, I would be more interested in cultivating rivalry in a region where it would help strengthen our recruiting footprint. At least in the short term, until the next realignment shake-up. After that happens, reassess and hopefully there's a more suitable candidate.

To the recruiting issue, I think Self is doing just fine in that department. Most venues, I would agree, you try and get your recruits there in a perfect storm of circumstances - rivalry game, homecoming (football), put on a big show, roll out the red carpet, etc. Other programs need those things. Okie State needs Travis Ford begging in the student center to come to the games and support the teams. Most other schools are certainly in the same boat. We are Kansas. We sell out every game. Most games there is an electric atmosphere. Certainly there are enough games on our schedule every year that we can say "this should be a good game to host recruits" that we don't need to go try and manufacture a rivalry game just for that. Really, recruiting is a non-issue in this, at least in so much as adding Wichita State to the schedule is concerned.

My position isn't one operating out of fear. More out of loathing for their fan base and their coach. I live in WIchita and let me tell you they are more obnoxious than KState fans, which is saying something! And lastly, to your urging us to "Just converse with anyone from the State of Kentucky", I just have this to say: I try and avoid that at all costs! You can't make me! Bahaha

@globaljaybird St. Louis is ranked 13 or something. That's the Shockers' marquee win. It's a good win to be sure (a road win at that), but the Billikins are enjoying some of the same success as the Shockers, in that they haven't played very stiff competition either (no ranked teams in the Atlantic 10, best RPI win is against #48 Richmond).

Living in Wichita, I have to hear all too often about how great the Shockers are. They are a pretty good team; at least as good as last year's Final Four team. But their resume is thin for sure.

St. Louis is ranked 13 or something. That's the Shockers' marquee win. It's a good win to be sure (a road win at that), but the Billikins are enjoying some of the same success as the Shockers, in that they haven't played very stiff competition either (no ranked teams in the Atlantic 10, best RPI win is against #48 Richmond).

Living in Wichita, I have to hear all too often about how great the Shockers are. They are a pretty good team; at least as good as last year's Final Four team. But their resume is thin for sure.

@ralster Love it. And way to invoke the memory of KY's screen last year. That was epic.

@drgnslayr I thought that, out of context, he did in fact hit the nail on the head regarding officiating. It is inconsistent. However, if he is attributing that to his flopping, as if to say he has no other choice, that is absurd. Instead of just taking a bad call here and there, moving past it, putting his head down, and competing, he is more focused on trying to win back a few calls every game. And it's backfired, as they are having a horrible in-conference season, and he's tarnished his reputation. Seriously, this guy was almost universally respected last year by media, opposing coaches, and fans. Now...not so much.

@Crimsonorblue22 @ralster Since we're talking about Smart's flopping, ESPN just posted an article about it where he basically admits to flopping, but that everybody does it. Goes on to basically blame it on inconsistent officiating. Pretty funny stuff, even more so if you delve into the comments. LOL.

Pretty high praise from Jimmy Dykes last nigth that Naadir is Self's best scoring point guard since he's been at Kansas (even if he did through Chalmers name out there as a PG). Better than Sherron? Better than senior year Tyshawn? Hmm...I need more of a sample size to crown him that over those two guys. I don't think he'll ever be as good of a scorer via the drive as those two were. He is probably a better jump shooter than both. Definitely better than Tyshawn. Collins could put together some monster games from behind the arc; I remember a back-and-forth 3-point shooting contest between him and Willie Warren down in Norman one year on the Big Monday stage.

Regardless, it says quite a bit if a solid basketball guy like Dykes is ready to dole out that kind of praise. It also makes it all the more crazy that Naadir lost his starting role for a couple of early season games, and that he can apparently still get in coaches dog house enough to sit most of a half. Just confirms what a lot of people have already said, and that Naadir is the most important piece to this team's success.

@jaybate 1.0 I read that too and had the same reaction. UGH! We know Bill is merciless about having his players play through injuries, but if there is first any chance that he makes it worse by playing on it and secondly any chance that rest will make him right again, I have to disagree on this one. It would be worth sacrificing a league game, even two, if it would ensure Embiid's knee would recover. That's how important he is to our national title hopes.

@HighEliteMajor I found a photoshopped image of this years ago with her in KU gear. But yes, every year we travel to Texas (which is annually now, but used to be every other year when we had 12 teams in the league) the first thing that comes to mind is the red-head behind the bench :)

@globaljaybird I saw Willie Cauley play in high school too and agree, his effort was pathetic.

To your statement that Cal & his staff go for talent over psyche, remember (as I mentioned above) that Bill has heavily recruited a lot of the same players that Cal lands. We didn't heavily recruit WCS, but the rumors I heard (which, being rumors, you can decide what their worth) is that we approached him but were shut down immediately. He played with (and perhaps lived with?) Shevon Shields, former Kansas City Chiefs OL Will Shields' son, and for whatever reason that camp didn't want to have anything to do with KU.

Anyway, not saying that Cal & Bill go about assembling a team in exactly the same fashion, but I think it is perhaps that Bill is just so much better at developing his players, whereas Cal has a harder time getting kids to "buy in."

@ralster I've seen the same things from Kentucky this year. It makes the 2012 title of theirs all the more impressive, and makes this year's KU team, which looks to be on a similar track, also impressive. Such a difficult job blending in so many new players at once, especially when most are used to being the alpha dogs. Getting guys to buy in on defense, accept their roles, sacrifice individual numbers for the sake of the team...very difficult when you're dealing with so many freshman.

We can't say that this year's KU team was put together by design (as Self recruited Randle and Dakari Johnson), but it is pretty amazing how well the pieces mesh. And the contrast in team chemistry can be seen in the decisions by Randle & Wiggins to choose their respective schools. Randle chooses Kentucky, and there's talk of assembling the most talented team ever, going undefeated, etc. Wiggins chooses Kansas, a place he's comfortable with, coming in with players of similar personalities that he's jelled with in various all-star games. Maybe it's a stretch, but it's like Randle choose Kentucky for the wrong reasons and Wiggins choose KU for the right ones.

@drgnslayr Agree on your assessment of Perry. I'm a huge fan of his, not only born & raised in Wichita but also a fellow Heights grad, so I'm eager to see his continued success.

Eventually, I think Perry can be as effective as Marcus Morris was during his years here, and will also latch onto an NBA team. Perhaps not a star, but a solid contributor. Both similar players; I'd say Marcus had a bit more physicality to him whereas Perry is far more fundamentally sound, and as you say has tools with which to draw upon.

@Kip_McSmithers Thanks for the assist!

I was very happy to see Perry do so well. That being said, I expected it. Iowa St. is not a physical team that has a lot of big bodies up front. Perry's struggles seem to come when the game is rugged and he is overmatched from a physicality standpoint. It is against those type of teams that I want to see if he maintains his aggressiveness. His frame and overall game are never going to lend themselves to banging away inside with the big boys. But in games where he is overmatched, I want to see if he can find ways to be productive. If he can use his quickness & handles to create mismatches rather than letting his relative frailty become his opponents' advantage. If he can outwork his opponents for position on the glass rather than being muscled out of position. That's the next step in Perry's development - being productive in a game of extreme muscleball (as jaybate might put it).

@justanotherfan I agree, the Big 12 race is all but wrapped up. At the very least, it's almost a lock KU will do no worse than share the title. People were up in arms on kusports about a recent podcast between Keegan, Tait, & Benton where they were calling the race almost a done deal before the Baylor game. Maybe a tad premature, but the way this team is playing, combined with the remaining schedules (nice laying that out by the way)...well Bill has done it again.

The thing that I'm more interested in is how good is the Big 12 really? I'm talking in terms of who can make some noise in the dance. This is perennially one of the knocks I have against the Big 12. Put it this way, of the teams listed, who can you see honestly still playing on the second weekend of the tournament (sweet 16)? Iowa State to me is the most dangerous team. Okie St. maybe, if they get the right draw that doesn't expose their front court deficiencies; the wrong draw and I can see them upset in the opening round. I'm reserving judgment on Texas until I see them Saturday, but Rick Barnes doesn't fill me with enough confidence that they'll be left standing. OU would need a great performance from Stevie Clark just to advance, and I hate putting faith in one guy to carry a team for too long. I have almost no faith in KSUck to advance that far, especially (as the latest bracketology indicates) if they would be matched up with a #1 seed in the round of 32.

So once again it will be up to KU to carry the flag for the conference. Just all a bunch of pretenders, and I wonder when that will change. I think ISU has the potential, but I also want to see if Hoiberg can actually recruit or if he will continue to rely almost exclusively on transfers. That well has to dry up sometime; eventually, to achieve sustained success, I think he will have to demostrate the ability to grow the program with high school kids he can coach & develop for multiple years. Regardless, the lack of another elite school in the conference hurts KU, both in the long run & on a yearly basis in terms of preparing KU for the dance. This is why missing on bringing Louisville into the fold during the realignment madness was such a blow. It's also why I am so thankful for the tough non-conference schedule this season.

@wissoxfan83 Good stuff wissox! Replies below (although not to all):

TWO (2). Do you really think so? Sure last night it was the starters carrying the load, but we've had some recent games where the bench gets 30+ points. I have absolutely no worries about our bench of post players. Jamari, Black, & Lucas are as good as any bigs coming off the bench in the country, and all of them would start for most of the teams in the Big 12. Brennan Greene wasn't lights out last night, but his confidence is there, he's high energy, and I really like his basketball instincts. I think the one area that concerns me is that I don't fully trust Mason. And I'm not talking about from a production standpoint. He could average 2 points from here on out and that in & of itself wouldn't worry me. It's that the offense just doesn't look as good often times with him in there. And defensively...he looked pretty bad last night in my opinion.

SIX (6). Excellent way of putting it. I turned to my brother after the game last night and said "I can't believe that's 5 in a row over the last 2 seasons over these guys."

EIGHT (8). Yes, and I don't know what the season stats are but this seems to be, top to bottom, one of Self's better free throw shooting teams since he's been here.

NINE (9). "Slightly"? I'd say considerably. 14 last night vs. 24 in Ames. That's a 42% reduction, which is great in my book. Also, in a game that high scoring with that many possessions, 14 is as good as having say...10 on a night we score 70 or so.

TWELVE (12). Yes we are, and HEM thinks that is a very big deal!

THIRTEEN (13). Yes we are, regardless of seed.

FOURTEEN (14). I do too. But I come at it a little differently. I don't know how you can tell an adult (and at the end of the day, these 18 year old kids are adults) that they don't have the right to make money off of their skills. So to me, I think it should be that they can go straight to the NBA right out of high school. But if they choose to attend college that they must do so for a minimum number of years (baseball is 3, maybe for basketball I'd say at least 2). Regardless, I agree with the sentiment, that we want to enjoy these players for more than just a season. But who knows what players we'd have if players were required to stay all four years. We'd still have BMac. Heck, we'd still have Selby! So we wouldn't have scholarships for Wiggins, or maybe not for Embiid. Certainly none for Alexander & Oubre next year. Just got to enjoy them while they last.

@HighEliteMajor Yeah, 2011-2012 TRob was as good as we've seen under Self. Simien had some big years the first two seasons Self was here too. I do think he needed some time to develop, to get used to not fouling and to not be so sped up. I'm sure that would have came sooner had he started his sophomore year, but hard to argue having both the Twins in there.

Good article about Lucas & KU's front-court depth. Awhile back (and maybe not here, perhaps on kusports) I had posted that this year's team had the chance to be the best front-court Self has ever had at KU. And I posted this before Embiid started landing as everyone's #1 pick on their draft boards. What does everyone else think? Here are the front courts of the past several years:

'14: Embiid, Ellis, Traylor, Black, Lucas

'13 Withey, Young, Ellis, Traylor

'12 TRob, Withey, KY, Wesley

'11 Mc Morris, Mk Morris, TRob, Withey

'10 Aldrich, Mc Morris, Mk Morris, TRob

'09 Aldrich, Mc Morris, Mk Morris, Quintrell Thomas (or a case could be made, accurately in my opinion, that Mario Little actually played the 4 more as the 4th big than did Quintrell)

'08 Arthur, D Jackson, Kaun, Aldrich

'07 Wright, Arthur, Kaun, Jackson

'06 Wright, Kaun, CJ Giles, Jackson

All due respect to Wayne Simien, that's as far back as I'll go. Partly because Simien was a Roy recruit, and partly because it was a one man show in the post at that time, with Christian Moody being the primary front court mate in '05.

I think prior to this year, the '11 squad with the Morris Twins and TRob off the bench was the best we'd seen, definitely the best trio. If we just look at it as the top 3, are Embiid, Ellis, & Traylor as good as those 3? I would say not yet, but they may be come March. '12 TRob was the best individual post player during Self's tenure in my opinion. From a depth perspective, it's hard to argue against this year's squad. I also love the versatility of this year's team. Whereas the '11 MorrisHawk led front-court might have been superior in scoring and rebounding, they didn't have a rim protector that the Withey & Aldrich led teams had. Joel provides us with the best of both, which is why I say this year's collection of players may end up being the best yet.

@HighEliteMajor " If you could pick one player right now to start your team, who would it be?"

I forget who opened up this discussion a bit the other day; perhaps slayr did, when the discussion of Doug McDermott as POY candidate. It was asked that maybe the best way to judge a POY candidate would be to ask D1 coaches in March to pick their starting 5. I stepped in and asked the posters, and then I gave my starting 5. I did in fact pick Joel with my #1 pick. Now this was operating under the conditions of starting a team in March, not necessarily starting a program. Regardless, the pick would be the same.

(just as an FYI, the rest of my March starting 5 were Russ Smith, Keith Appling, Wiggins, & McDermott. Wanted somebody with a little bit more of a rebounding advantage at the 4 than McDermott, but I just can't stand Randle's body language and court demeanor, and no other dominant 4s really came to mind.)

@AsadZ The other bad thing about the situation is that the obvious red-shirt candidates - Mickleson, Lucas, & Traylor - have already sat out a year anyway, and wouldn't be eligible to do so again. So no PT issues can be solved that way.

@AsadZ Yeah I had addressed that a day or so ago, the front court logjam. Particularly as it applies to Perry. If Embiid comes back, he obviously starts. And I'm inclined to think Alexander would start ahead of Perry, but that is kinda rough on him - a former McDonald's All-American being relegated to the bench as a junior. Of course whenever I bring up concern over a player, many posters are always quick to remind me that Self's responsibilities are towards the university and not a single player so he will do what is best for the team. Which is not anything I disagree with, but I'm also able to recognize that it would be a blow for the player. Also, that pushes Jamari down to 4th big (whereas this year he is pretty much the 3rd big - first post player off the bench). Lucas makes no strides in the rotation. And who knows with Mickleson. At this point, the way things are shaping up, he might regret coming here as I don't know when he'll have a legitimate shot at any PT. All that being said, I'd love to have Embiid back, just again, it's not hard to recognize the ripple effect.

@drgnslayr You could put Jay Bilas and any other clown with him and I'd listen just for Bilas. I also really like Gus Johnson just for his energy, but I haven't heard him do a college bb game in I don't know how long. Seems maybe I heard him doing college football for a network other than CBS, which would explain why I don't remember him doing any tourney games last year.

I didn't listen too intently to the announcers last night, as I was with family and we get a little loud, plus we have more intelligent hawk talk than we normally get from the broadcast. Good news is, with both last night's and this Wednesday's games on ESPNU, maybe we'll get the same team and I can pay closer attention to them.

@KUSTEVE @drgnslayr Let me just say that Perry could play the 3. I just don't know that he could play it well enough, particularly on the defensive end, as other options we will have. Oubre, by all accounts, is a plus defender already, and would probably be ahead of Perry in terms of playing the 3. I would think Greene would be better at the 3 than Perry. A 3 guard line-up of Tharpe, Mason, & Selden (assuming he returns) at the 3 might be preferable to Self than having Perry at the 3. And while not a likelihood, what if Wiggins decides to return for another season? I just see too many combinations that would keep Perry from playing the 3.

I agree that Perry being the first man off the bench to sub in the post makes the most sense. Just that it could be a blow to his ego and it would be up to Self to manage that.

If Joel stays another year, we're going to have an embarrassment of riches in the post next year, and Self will have a tough task trying to allocate minutes to both maximize team production without hurting anyone's ego. Say Alexander ends the year as the #1 high school prospect, how do you sit him and have him come off the bench? Even if he falls anywhere in the top 10, players that highly ranked don't sign on somewhere to sit. So...Perry comes off the bench? That's rough for a former McDonalds All-American to be relegated to back-up duty his junior year. And don't think that Self will start him at the 3; we'll have enough talent on the perimeter without adding him into the mix. Don't get me wrong, it will be a nice problem to have, but it will be interesting to see how that situation develops (again, if Joel stays, which I hope he does).

@ralster I've often wondered whether that "no-bench" was a weakness or a strength, as far as looking at the season as a whole goes. For example, Tyshawn had as good of a second half of the season as we've seen from a player, but his first half was fairly Tyshawn-esque. One game you'd see the good Tyshawn, the next maybe the bad. If Self had another option on the bench, does Tyshawn get the opportunity to play through that and elevate his game to what we saw once conference play started? I don't know. EJ & Releford thrived after finally being given starting roles and all the playing time they could handle. Does that happen if Self had the quick hook option at his disposal? I think given the lack of trust those guys had banked coming into the season, maybe not. I find myself often thinking that the lack of a bench that season might have been the best thing for Self at the time.

I also don't think for a second that Self believes that, and that season - playing with no bench, and then specifically running into & falling to Kentucky in the championship game, has caused Bill to up his game on the recruiting trail. Awhile back on a kusports thread I did a breakdown of how many high level recruits we'd gotten before that season, and how many we've landed in the short time since, and the evidence was clear that he has landed more high level talent last year and this year than in any two year period prior.

@jaybate 1.0 Just out of curiousity, do you really not remember the names of some of these former UK players, or do you just refuse to call them by name? Kind of like Peyton-Brady referring to each other as "the other guy". The other day you referenced Terrance Jones and "another sophomore", whom I pointed out was Doron Lamb. I'm inclined to think you've misplaced their names, as you named Jones & Davis, so with that being said, the great 3 on the Davis team was Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. If you wish me to stop referring to these players by name and are intentionally not naming them, just let me know :)

Agreed on your analysis of long and athletic big men wearing down players in the NBA. See Greg Oden, Andrew Bynum.

@oldhwkfan Oh there's definitely a second camp on Craft. In fairness to him, it's not 100% his fault. I think a lot of it is media driven. For example, some of us as KU fans couldn't fathom the Defensive POY not going to Jeff Withey, yet we'd turn on ESPN and someone would be talking about how they'd give it to Craft. It was almost as if Thad Matta walked him around his freshman year, talking him up to any media person who would listen, and before you knew it everyone was calling him the best defender in the country. Not saying he isn't good, but he certainly used to get away with a TON of hand-checking and reaching in. I haven't caught them too much this year to see if the new rule enforcement has affected him, or if he is still getting away with murder based on reputation. I guess that's my only issue with him, is again, that I think he's overrated. Which is not to say he isn't very good, but for example I think Russell Robinson was a superior defender than Craft is, yet no one was hyping up RussRob for any Defensive POY awards, let alone by his sophomore year.

As for the losing 4 in a row part and what happened to KU, we lost 3 games in a row (including an ugly effort at TCU). Of course you're right, it was a team issue, but also remember Bill coming out and saying "we have no point guard", obviously aiming it at Elijah. Much like a quarterback in football, the starting point guard will often take much of the credit for victories and much of the blame for defeats. Now I won't claim to have watched any of those defeats or to be in any way an expert on the team dynamics that led to those losses. It was just in response to Kip saying he watched them win their last game last night, so I kind of threw that out there wondering if he'd watched any of the losses.

No floppers allowed! LOL

@Kip_McSmithers Thanks Kip. Glad to be here.

First of all, Aaron Craft? It seems there's two camps with this guy - you either love him or hate him. I really think he's overrated. And they might have looked good last night, but they just lost 4 in a row.

I really like Harris & Ennis too. I shied away from Ennis just because he's a freshman and I was already taking 2 of the freshman Jayhawks, plus at a position like PG I couldn't pull the trigger on a freshman to run the team. Not over a senior anyway.

I like Payne as well, but wasn't sure how hurt he was and if he'd come back, what condition he'd be in. I really did want a more prototypical 4 though, or at least a beast on the boards. Give me TRob all day at the 4!

As far was Willy Cauley Stein goes, I will probably never be a fan. I watched him play a couple tournaments in high school, and he was awful. In one he averaged like 7 ppg, despite being one of two D-1 players (Shevon Shields was the other, who signed with Nebraska). I remember posters bemoaning us not getting him as a recruiting miss (even though we didn't really recruit him at all), and I kept telling everybody we dodged a bullet. He's trash, and Kensucky can have him. Fits right in.

"Imagine it is late March, and all D1 coaches are polled across America to pick their starting 5 from every player currently in college basketball."

Very interesting idea. While not D1 coaches, and while also to surely exhibit a heavy KU bias, why not have the posters pick their starting 5? Here's mine, in the order I think I'd pick them:

Embiid
Russ Smith (Lou)
Keith Appling (Mich St.)
Wiggins
McDermott (Cre)

So a quick disclaimer, I don't watch a ton of college basketball outside of KU games. Some, and I follow it quite a bit, but this year in particular I typically get a chance to watch 1 full non-KU game per week, and bits and pieces of maybe 3 or 4 other games. Also, I did this just under the guise of making a run through March. Not on any other criteria, like if I was starting a program who would I take (in which case freshman would probably be more favored). Now to explaining my picks:

Maybe a touch of homerism in taking Embiid #1 overall, but it's January. Imagine him in March. I envision a Jeff Withey like performance in the tournament on the defensive end, and a match-up nightmare for almost any team on the offensive end. He's already proving to be a headache, as double teams aren't nearly as effective as opposing coaches were probably hoping.

So, following my freshman center I took a senior backcourt at picks 2 & 3. Russ Smith - already an NCAA champion. Scorer, decent outside shooter, plays good defense. Keith Appling at the point - Izzo toughness (some may turn their nose at that statement), explosive, attacks the paint, plus trey gun.

Took Wiggins here at #4, primarily because of his defense, height, & length. With my backcourt standing at 6' & 6'1", I had to have someone with all the tools to at least prevent one mis-match on the perimeter.

Thought a lot about my last pick. Needed a power forward. Thought about Randle, specifically for his rebounding. In the end I decided against it, mainly because watching him this season has really turned me off to him. Body language is awful. Facial expressions after every foul on him. In the end I chose McDermott. Great collegiate player. Yeah he might not be as great on a team not designed to get him scoring opportunities, but still is so fundamentally sound. Would be nice having him in the front court with Embiid; Joel might lead the team in assists if other teams wanted to double him!

Anyway, that's my "draft".

@jaybate 1.0 @approxinfinity

Thank you both for explaining some things to me. I hope in my confusion I didn't come off as complaining. Furthest thing from it. I think the site is an awesome idea and I applaud those that are making it happen on their own time.

@jaybate 1.0 @HighEliteMajor @drgnslayr

Jaybate - that all sounds great. I guess the only thing that is giving me trouble navigating is that the posting seems to be all over the place. On kusports.com, we all usually gravitated towards the daily Bedore article. That was the main forum. For example, I posted something today thinking I would get responses (I posed a question to posters), but I think the thread went stale and the majority of the conversation went elsewhere. I do like the notifications here, and being able to follow our favorites.

@ParisHawk Thanks for making me feel welcome. I hibernate during much of the off-season, then came back to kusports.com and it took me awhile to figure out where everyone was, then I still resisted and held out over there for awhile, but it's just not the same without the old gang! Good to see you around here as well my friend.

@wissoxfan83 Thanks buddy. Still trying to figure out exactly how this site works, but can't beat the familiar faces!